asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what talks he intends to have with the Government of the Irish Republic concerning the constitution of Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had with Ministers from the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

I had a meeting with Mr. Barry, the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland, on 25 October, when I also met Mr. Noonan, the Minister for Justice. I met Mr. Barry again with other Ministers at the Heads of Government meeting on 18 and 19 November. These were useful occasions and I look forward to future meetings within the framework of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council. Such meetings do not affect the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate the immense harm caused to Anglo-Irish relations by the Prime Minister's remarks after her meeting with the Irish Prime Minister? Would it not be wise for the right hon. Lady and the Secretary of State, who is new to the job, to realise the need for sensitivity? Is he aware that if mainstream Irish nationalism is treated with contempt the only gainers will be the Provisional IRA?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already answered that question. The process of regular discussion and consultation between the two Governments, the giving and taking of advice, is very useful and important for all who are concerned with Northern Ireland.

Will my right hon. Friend ignore the characteristically unhelpful comments of the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick)? Will he confirm that although the three proposals in the Forum report are not acceptable to the majority of Northern Ireland people, there is an opportunity for a unique relationship between the two sides and ourselves without impinging upon the spirit or the letter of the constitutional guarantee?

My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Forum report is a stimulating document in which much common ground is revealed on issues such as consent and violence.

When the Secretary of State next meets Dublin Ministers, will he ask them to describe in detail the abject misery and nightmare existence which they allege is endured by hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland for which he is responsible? What does the Secretary of State intend to do to remove the deprivation which, according to allegations made at the weekend, is suffered by hundreds of thousands of Northern Ireland people who are being denied basic political rights?

I hope that we shall have the support of Unionist Members on both sides of the House in proving that the Province's institutions are there to serve all who live in the Province.

At the recent meeting with Mr. Barry, or at the summit, did the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister raise with representatives from the Republic of Ireland the arrogant, abusive and illegal claim of jurisdiction over Northern Ireland contained in articles 2 and 3 of the Republic of Ireland's constitution?

No, Sir.

Does the Secretary of State admit that the only policy that the British Government have for Northern Ireland is desperately to keep the lid on it and that they have no solution to all the conflict, misery and death? Does he agree that Britain is simply willing to wait until some explosion occurs to force constructive action that will bring us to a long-term settlement?

The hon. Lady cannot have read the communiqué from the summit or what has been said since. Her description of our policy is a travesty. On the one hand, for the reason that I have just given, we are searching for closer and more effective co-operation between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Within the Province, a particular part of my job is to do my best to encourage those who are elected to represent the different traditions there to come together and to show that the institutions of the Province exist to serve all its inhabitants.

While making every possible allowance for the Secretary of State's newness to his job, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that his mind-boggling complacency will arouse the anger of many people who want to see a settlement of our difficulties in Northern Ireland? Does he realise— if not, is it not about time that he did so—that his speeches and the conduct of the Prime Minister are a stab in the back for the Prime Minister of the Republic and the hopes of many people for peace in both parts of Ireland?

I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman, who is usually fair in his comments and criticism, should take up that theme. I shall, with great pleasure, send him the transcripts of the press conferences of both my right hon. Friend and myself, and with his usual fair-mindedness he can judge for himself. I am not in the least complacent—no member of the Government is—about the situation in the Province. The levels of violence are unacceptable, the levels of unemployment are deeply tragic and disturbing, and the political institutions are obviously not normal.

I welcome the Secretary of State to his first Northern Ireland Question Time since assuming his present high office. Has he grasped the catastrophic change in atmosphere which has taken place since the summit, with parties which were previously prepared to talk and exchange proposals now expressing bitterness and frustration, and with everyone adding his three penn'orth of petrol to the fire? Is the right hon. Gentleman not appalled at the fact that this change has stemmed from the crass insensitivity of the Prime Minister following the summit meeting, and is there any reason to hope for anything better from the February summit?

I am glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the February summit, because there is work to be done along the lines that I indicated—but not altering the constitutional status of the problem—on which we need the co-operation of the Irish Republic. I do not agree with the rest of what he said. I refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman back to the communiqué issued after Chequers, which sets out the lines of work which the two Governments agreed to follow. That is what we are doing.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he anticipates laying proposals for devolved government before the House as envisaged under the Northern Ireland Assembly Act 1982.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his recent round of talks with Northern Ireland party leaders.

I have talked to the leaders of Northern Ireland constitutional parties twice in recent weeks and I have met the Assembly's Devolution Report Committee. All have said that they want to make progress and have shown some understanding of each other's anxieties. I shall continue to encourage them to build on these expressions of intent.

Will my right hon. Friend take every opportunity to impress upon the Unionist parties that it is in their interests, as well as in the wider national interest, to take all steps to encourage and to show greater generosity to those representatives of constitutional nationalism in the Northern Ireland community?

I agree with my hon. Friend. When I took office and read the Ulster Unionist document "The Way Forward" I was struck with the following phrase:

"It is the responsibility of the majority to persuade the minority that the Province is also theirs".

Is my right hon. Friend ruling out any possibility of amending the Northern Ireland Assembly Act so that devolution can take place? If so, and as he has a breathing space, may I suggest that it might be useful to set up a commission— perhaps a Royal Commission— drawn from a wide spectrum of the community to consider the possibility of a better structure of local administration for the Province?

I have no plans to bring forward to the House proposals to amend the Act, as I do not think that at this moment the possibilities are exhausted.

Does the Minister recognise, as I do, the signs of an incipient pantomime season in some of the statements from the Opposition today? Will he acknowledge that, despite Opposition Front Bench comments about parties being willing to talk, one significant party has not been prepared to come into the Assembly to talk? Does he appreciate that it is extremely difficult for the parties in the Assembly to come forward with plans unless those people are prepared to share with us in wrestling with the problems involved in finding a solution to Northern Ireland's constitutional issues?

I understand that difficulty, but I think that the ingenuity of political leaders in the Province should find a way round it if they are to turn into reality the general professions that they have made in recent months.

Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to impress upon the SDLP the need to talk to Unionist representatives of the Province instead of running to Dublin every other day?

It is very important for all the constitutional parties in the Province at this particular time to find ways in which their leaders and members can discuss the problems of the Province together.

Despite the comments of hon. Members opposite, is my right hon. Friend aware that we commend his restrained approach to these problems? Unlike his predecessors in office, however, will he avoid an absolute commitment to legislative devolution, because many of us, on both sides of the water, believe that Northern Ireland should be fully governed like any other part of the United Kingdom?

I am certainly aware of that view and I have read the skilfully written pamphlet to which my hon. Friend and others have put their names.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will proscribe Provisional Sinn Fein.

I do not think that proscription is the right course at present, but the Government keep this under close review and would not hesitate to use the power if the circumstances warranted it. The absence of proscription confers no immunity on any individual members who commit terrorist acts.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer will disappoint many people in Northern Ireland and on the mainland, especially in the light of the comments made by the leader of Sinn Fein in the aftermath of the Brighton bombing? If he is not prepared to consider proscription, will he take up the suggestion made in Sir George Baker's recent report that a debate should take place in Northern Ireland about the possibility of banning from fighting elections parties that support violence?

The practical difficulties of enforcing proscription would be very great. The propaganda advantage to the IRA would also be very great. I note the hon. Gentleman's second point, however, and I hope that it will not be too long before the House has the opportunity to debate the report of the late Sir George Baker and the Government's attitude to it.

The Secretary of State has banned one party—the IRA—but Sinn Fein is part of the IRA and in many areas the officers are synonymous. If, as he now says, a ban would not be effective, what is the point of banning the main organisation when he is not prepared to ban a section of it?

People who commit illegal acts are liable to prosecution, whatever the organisation to which they belong. I believe that it is better to deal with terrorists by pursuing and prosecuting people for criminal offences that they commit rather than for the views that they hold or the organisations to which they belong.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is absolutely right to proscribe organisations that are overtly paramilitary, dress up in paramilitary uniforms, carry weapons, and murder? Is he further aware that it was I who, despite the close connection between the two organisations, deproscribed the Provisional Sinn Fein, with other organisations, in 1974? I fully agree with him that if anyone in Provisional Sinn Fein is doing anything that is against the law the best way to deal with that person is to collect the evidence and put it before the courts. To do anything else would simply play into the hands of Provisional Sinn Fein, which, despite its activities, believes that it has a political view to put forward. Is not the only way to defeat it to defeat its political arguments?

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments.

Is the Secretary of State aware that one Peter Sherry, who stood as a Sinn Fein candidate in a local government by-election, recently used his manifesto to forecast which people would be murdered, and three of those murders have already been carried out? In view of that misuse of the democratic procedures, will the right hon. Gentleman view more seriously and urgently the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. McCusker)?

I know that the prosecuting authorities, as is right, carefully study any statements by Sinn Fein leaders and representatives to ascertain whether they would justify prosecution. I am sure that they will note the hon. Gentleman's comments.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the best way to defeat paramilitaries is to remove the alienation and despair on which they feed? Will he make a start by relaxing those elements in the legal system which are destroying the confidence of many decent, law-abiding people, such as supergrass trials with overloaded indictments? When will the House have an opportunity to debate the Baker report?

The matter raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman falls clearly within the ambit of the Baker report. Obviously it is for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to say when the debate will take place, but I hope that it will not be delayed for too long.

asked the Secretary of Slate for Northern Ireland what progress has been made in Northern Ireland in the completion of local authority emergency planning and the raising and training of civil defence volunteers.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the level of civil defence emergency planning in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is one of 11 home defence regions in the United Kingdom, and civil defence emergency planning in the Province is being developed along broadly the same lines as those in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am satisfied that reasonable progress is being made in developing preparedness in Northern Ireland.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there can be no effective civil defence in Northern Ireland unless and until emergency planning officers have been appointed at both county and district level?

The position in Northern Ireland is slightly different, in that under regional control, as we have no county organisation in Northern Ireland, there are four area organisations, which correspond to the health and social service area board organisations. Both the regional and area levels are under the control of my Department. We have made substantial progress in identifying plans and individuals who will fulfil those roles. Discussions along those lines are in progress with the district councils.

Will my hon. Friend do all in his power to encourage the greatest and closest co-operation between the Northern Ireland radioactivity monitoring organisations and their equivalents in the Republic?

The United Kingdom warning and monitoring organisation, of which Northern Ireland is a part, exercises regularly. Volunteers and others from Northern Ireland regularly take part in exercises in cooperation with their counterparts in Great Britain.

What purpose-built buildings are available at regional and area level? Will my hon. Friend ensure that those buildings are adequate?

We have an intermediate programme for adapting certain buildings to be better able to provide for the purposes of civil defence. There is a provision over the period 1986 to 1988 for purpose-built buildings.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress he has made with the application of milk quotas in Northern Ireland.

Forty per cent. of producers in Northern Ireland have had their quotas confirmed. The remainder have submitted applications for special case or exceptional hardship treatment. Four local panels have dealt with almost all of the special cases initially referred to them. In addition, some 400 requests have been received for review by local panels following initial rejections by the Department and work is progressing on the consideration of these appeals.

Is the Minister aware that Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom which at present stands to pay the super levy within the regulations? Will the Minister assure the House that no money will be collected from Northern Ireland dairy farmers or forwarded to Brussels until all appeals are heard, and until we are sure that all EEC countries will stand firm and carry out their part of the bargain?

On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the number of people who are prepared to be bought out as outgoers in Northern Ireland is less than in the rest of Great Britain. On his second point, on 20 November, in the House, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that either all member states would collect the super levy or none would do so. She said:

"We shall not be in a position in which Britain keeps the rules while others do not."—[Official Report, 20 November 1984; Vol. 68, c. 143.]

Will the Minister give an assurance to the House that those who have won their cases before panels and tribunals will receive this extra allocation? Can they be sure that what has now been allocated to them will be received?

That assurance cannot be given at present, because the panels and tribunals have been acting separately. We still do not know the amount of buy-out by the outgoers. The decision will have to be made to link the 3 per cent. which we hope we can distribute to the hardship and special cases with the number of claims. Until the whole matter is finished that assurance cannot be given.

Will the Minister tell us what impact the cut in milk production has had on cheese production and the manufacture of products other than butter in Northern Ireland factories? Will at least some of the butter presently stored in the United Kingdom be made available cheaply in Northern Ireland to Northern Ireland consumers?

I am aware that the hon. Gentleman's last point is of interest to many hon. Members. I cannot give the details of the effect on cheese and butter production, but I shall write to the hon. Member. The number of people employed in agriculture in Northern Ireland increased slightly last year. There are no signs of a decline.

Has my hon. Friend any details of the impact of milk quotas on employment in Northern Ireland?

I am pleased that my hon. Friend asked that question, because it allows me to reiterate the fact that the number of people employed in agriculture in Northern Ireland increased last year. I am sure that all of us welcome that. There is no evidence that there has been any decline this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he intends to introduce legislation to bring the Province into line with the rest of the United Kingdom with respect to the flying of flags.

We have no present plans to do so.

Does my hon. Friend understand that his answer will cause grave disappointment to some of his hon. Friends and to the Unionists, who are always pressing Her Majesty's Government to treat the Province in exactly the same way as they treat the United Kingdom? At least in this instance, will he explain why the Government are treating the Province differently?

I am not without sympathy for the point that my hon. Friend puts forward. Perhaps I can clear up one misapprehension. It is not illegal to fly the tricolour in Northern Ireland, only to do so in circumstances likely to cause a breach of the peace. However, I understand that other legal powers are available to the police which enable them to act in those matters. My hon. Friend must recognise that this is a sensitive matter.

Will the Minister confirm that when the flag of the Irish Republic is flown in Northern Ireland it is flown not as a friendly gesture to a neighbouring state but rather as a claim by the Irish Government to sovereignty over Northern Ireland? Will he also confirm that there are a number of councils in Northern Ireland, such as Londonderry, which do not allow the Union flag to be flown on any buildings over which they have control?

Of course, I understand that there are some circumstances where the Irish tricolour is used provocatively. There are also times, I imagine, in Northern Ireland when it is used to express the aspirations of one third of the community.

It is not a third.

The Government are pledged to respect the tradition of that one third of the population.

Is the Minister aware that many people in Northern Ireland will appreciate his answer? Does he not understand that the Flags and Emblems (Display) (Northern Ireland) 1954 Act is a gratuitous and pointless provocation to nationalist feeling and that repealing it would be a modest step towards the hope of restoring some progress through constitutional politics?

This is a sensitive matter. It is something that the Government will consider, but I cannot at this point commit myself to any definite action.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House on what he bases his allegation that a third of the people want to go into the Irish Republic? Recently, an outstanding Roman Catholic leader calling himself Father Paul said that not 20 per cent. of Roman Catholics would vote for a united Ireland.

I am not even sure that raising the tricolour necessarily demonstrates a wish to join the Republic. It indicates an aspiration—one might say a tradition—within Northern Ireland, to which we owe respect.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the future of the Northern Ireland gas industry.

The Government announced on 6 September that the proposed Kinsale gas project would not proceed as it would not be economically viable for Northern Ireland. We have always made it clear that we could not continue to subsidise a gas industry that had no real prospects of viability; we have now asked towns gas undertakings in the Province to consider their position.

Should not the Minister explain to the House that that decision directly affects the jobs of 1,200 workers in the gas industry and indirectly those of many hundreds more? It also affects services to over 68,000 households, which depend on gas as their sole source of energy. According to Coopers and Lybrand in 1981, the decision not to go ahead with that project and the implied dismantling of the gas system in Northern Ireland would cost £124 million. Should not the Minister explain the need for a fully nationalised gas industry and a commitment by the Government to the jobs of workers in that industry and to the services that they currently provide?

The decision was made purely on economic grounds, in that what one spends on gas subsidy one cannot spend on other things. It is a question of preferences. At present, the subsidy for 3 per cent. of the energy used in the Province costs £12 million a year. No one appreciates more strongly than I do the concern for jobs in Northern Ireland, but there is a subsidy per man of £12,000. The decision was made purely because the heavy fuel cost with which the gas from the Republic of Ireland is linked rose tremendously in the past year, while the demand for gas by both domestic consumers and industry fell.

Will the Minister ensure that if the gas industry goes out of operation liquid gas will be considered, in order to compensate those users who wish to use it rather than turning to more expensive forms of heating?

We have not closed any of the 13 gas enterprises in Northern Ireland. We have said only that we cannot continue with an open-ended subsidy, or any subsidy at all. If any of the towns gas operations can continue economically, they may do so with our blessing. If those companies decide that they must go out of business because of the costing, we shall have to consider the Government's responsibility in connection with alternative fuels and equipment, and what the hon. Gentleman has said will be taken into account.

Following the collapse of the natural gas project, will my hon. Friend say whether there is any opportunity or likelihood of Northern Ireland overcoming its dependence on very high-cost energy sources?

I am grateful for that question. Recently there has been a considerable discovery of lignite reserves in the Province. Northern Ireland's problem is that it has no native energy supply. However, hundreds of thousands of tons of lignite have been found, not only near Lough Neagh, but in four or five other areas of the Province. We hope in January to fire about 500 tons in the west Belfast power station, to find out whether lignite can be used for electricity generation.

Has the Minister read the report of the joint working group of the Northern Ireland gas employers board and the gas trade union group, which suggests an alternative project for saving the jobs? If he has not read it, will he undertake to do so if I send him a copy?

I always welcome any gift from the right hon. and learned Gentleman, especially during the Christmas season. However, I have read the report, but neither we nor our advisers in the Department are convinced that the idea is economic. If it is economic and people want to do that they can—we are merely ending an open-ended subsidy.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many mobile classrooms there are at Magherafelt high school.

Twelve, Sir.

Does the Minister agree that the large shift of population from Belfast to large new housing estates, and the need to build schools without extra funding in those areas has contributed to the large number of mobile classrooms at Magherafelt high school and other schools? Will he embark on a long-term programme to replace those hutments with permanent accommodation so that children can enjoy a proper standard of education and accommodation?

I accept that the large-scale use of temporary classrooms is unsatisfactory and should not be prolonged for any longer than is necessary. The provision of permanent accommodation must depend on the priority accorded to the different schemes by education and library boards and the availability of resources from the centre.

Does the Minister agree that a complex involving an infant school, a primary school, a high school and a college of further education on one small piece of ground in Magherafelt is inadequate and that it is time the board took further steps to get sufficient ground to meet the need?

The board has plans for the installation of rather more permanent accommodation. That has been approved since 1979, but so far no plans have been advanced. The matter depends on the priority accorded by the board to it in the forthcoming financial year.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation in Northern Ireland.

Since my predecessor last answered questions on 26 July, two policemen, three soldiers and nine civilians have died in incidents arising from the security situation in the Province. So far this year, the efforts of the security forces have resulted in 508 people being charged with serious offences, including 40 with murder and 65 with attempted murder. In the same period, 188 weapons, 26,560 rounds of ammunition and 7,521 lb of explosives have been recovered. I pay tribute to the members of the security forces and the innocent civilians who have been tragically killed. I should like to pay tribute also to the dedication and bravery of all the security forces who work tirelessly to protect the people of Northern Ireland from violence.

As terrorist violence remains the greatest single issue affecting the United Kingdom, will my right hon. Friend confirm that improving cross-border cooperation with the Republic remains at the core of the Government's policy, whatever the ups and downs of our bilateral relations?

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend will have seen the passage in the communiqué which resulted from Chequers, in which both Governments committed themselves to maintain and, where possible, improve such co-operation.

I join my right hon. Friend in congratulating the security forces on the wonderful job that they are doing. Will he re-examine cross-border security and ensure that there is absolute unanimity about cross-border problems in regard to communications between the two sides?

I agree that that is an important feature. Security policy in the Province is not static. We are constantly examining new ways in which the security forces can wear down and defeat the terrorists, but obviously we cannot talk about them.

Although the battle against terrorism is vital to Northern Ireland, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is equally important to combat ordinary criminals in the Province? Will he take steps to persuade the Chief Constable to put more police into my constituency, where crime is on the increase?

I shall ensure that the Chief Constable is made aware of the hon. Gentleman's comments.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will consider a modest relaxation of planning law for development outside the Matthew stop line in the borough of Castlereagh.

Such development would not require a change in planning law; however, it would not be in accordance with the approved development strategy for the Belfast urban area.

Has the hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to read the statement issued by his predecessor, the hon. Member for Hampshire, North-West (Mr. Mitchell), issued on 10 August 1981, which said that the presumption should always be in favour of the application, particularly if job creation resulted? Will he review that and see what resistance there has been from divisional planning officers to the laudable sentiments in that statement of his predecessor?

I have read that statement, as I have read a number of other good statements by my predecessor, I do not believe that there is any resistance on the part of DPOs, but I take note of what the hon. Gentleman says. As he will be aware, we are about to respond to the Northern Ireland Assembly on planning policy in general.

Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that the small relaxation sought would not meet the need in regard to planning law in Northern Ireland, and, in particular, in Castlereagh? Will he consider going much further and giving planning control to councils such as Castlereagh so that they can exercise that authority on behalf of all who live within the boundaries?

I shall not be able to do that next week. However, I shall soon be able to respond about planning and planning law in general in Northern Ireland. I hope that, once again, our views will be regarded by the hon. Gentleman as useful.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans for increasing existing skills through a programme of balanced apprenticeship training in Northern Ireland.

Employers are basically responsible for determining numbers and training of apprentices. The Government, however, already support employers by providing extensive off-the-job training in 11 Government training centres and by funding the skill training scheme operated by the individual industrial training boards.

I thank the Minister for his sympathetic response to my question. Is he aware that Short Brothers provides the largest number of balanced apprenticeships in Northern Ireland? Does he agree that the acquisition of a contract for the Short's Tucano trainer would result in a further expansion of the number of apprenticeships available to young people in the Province?

I am aware that anybody connected with Northern Ireland or Shorts would agree with the second part of that question. I visited the apprenticeship centre at Shorts this year and I am glad to say that there has been an increase from 65 apprentices last year to 118 this year. The Government are funding 20,000 young people in various training schemes. Indeed, in Government training centres more apprentices are being trained this year than last year.

Does the Minister accept that the promotional literature being presented by Shorts is factually correct? Will he commend it to his colleagues in the United Kingdom whose constituencies could also benefit from the increased employment that would result from the supply of parts for that basic trainer if the contract goes to Shorts?

I am sure that all hon. Members will pay close attention to what the hon. Gentleman has said and will mark his question in Hansard and circulate it around the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many young offenders sentenced to indefinite terms of imprisonment at the Secretary of State's pleasure were released in 1983.

Two, Sir.

I am delighted to hear that two have been released, but is it not now necessary for the Minister to recognise the plight of many others, all of whom, by definition, were committed for offences at a young age, many of whom are now opposed to political violence, and all of whom look forward to a date when they can be released from prison, which will give them some hope as individuals for the future?

I am aware of the strong feelings on both sides of the community in Northern Ireland on this matter. My primary concern must be the safety of the public, but it might help the hon. Gentleman to know that five cases that are subject to the Secretary of State's pleasure have been given release dates in 1985.

I welcome that announcement, but will the Minister bear in mind the great hardship that has occurred in those cases because the parents do not know the release date? If those people had been over age they would probably have been released long ago. Both parts of the political and religious divide are concerned about the matter. Will the Minister keep in mind the debate that was held in the Assembly on this issue?

I cannot envisage circumstances in which the penalty for murder can be other than an indeterminate sentence. However, I am aware of the pressures and uncertainties that many families of those young people suffer. I hope, in the not-too-distant future, to be able to issue guidance to the parents and to the prisoners, which should help to remove some of the uncertainty.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps have been taken to offset the increase in price of coal imported into Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir. Pricing is a matter for the coal trade. I expect prices to fall when normal supplies are resumed.

Is the Minister aware that The Daily Telegraph, the Tory house magazine, of 21 August 1984 states that the people of Northern Ireland are having to pay £10 a tonne extra for domestic coal because they can no longer get cheap supplies from Britain? What is all the nonsense that we have heard for the past two years, with the Government saying that there is cheap coal abroad if only we could get at it? The truth is that the people of Northern Ireland, as well as the people in Great Britain, are having to suffer because of the Government's stupid policy of trying to run down British pits while importing dearer coal from abroad.

I am sure that the whole House will welcome the news that the hon. Gentleman is a regular reader of The Daily Telegraph. One of the problems with coal supplies for Northern Ireland is that long-term contracts are made with the NCB but at present coal is having to be bought on spot markets round the world. Long-term contracts are not being made, so that coal can once again be bought from the NCB. The hon. Gentleman should welcome that.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 November.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be meeting President Mitterrand in Paris this evening and shall attend a dinner to be given by the President at the Elysee.

This week we have heard a lot about the Prime Minister's speech on Monday night to the Carlton club on the subject of upholding the rule of law and the enemy within. Will she explain to the House and the nation why the Employment Act 1980 and the Shops Act 1950 should be treated entirely differently by her and her Ministers? Why does she allow the courts to treat the Employment Act in one way, with its harsh, obscene sequestration of trade union funds, while condoning blatant abuse of the Shops Act? Is——

I ask the hon. Gentleman to be brief.

Is that not another example of the Tories' double standards?

Clearly, the hon. Gentleman would have profited if he had read the lecture in full. He might then have learnt that the law in this country is impartially administered. The courts are the servants of the law and not of the Government.

Will the Prime Minister be good enough to give an assurance that if the House should be so foolish as to allow in television cameras the cost will not fall on the taxpayer?

I believe that the situation would be the same as that in the other place, and that no extra money would be provided for televising the House, should it decide to allow televising of its proceedings. But in one way the BBC licence fee is raised automatically by the amount that the Government decide on, having received all the representations. People have no option but to pay it if they wish to receive television broadcasts.

Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that unemployment was higher than the Government had assumed or expected. In the light of that, what possible justification can there be for taking away £340 million of regional job development money or for allowing the closure of one third of Britain's skillcentres?

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman heard the statement on regional policy yesterday, or read it. If he had done so he would have learnt the answer to his question, which is that the changes in regional policy are designed to obtain better value for the money that is spent in the regions and to ensure that it is directly related to the number of jobs that are anticipated. It would seem much better to relate it to job creation than to capital allowances, which could give a subsidy towards replacing jobs with machinery. I doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman would be in favour of that.

Not only did I hear the utterly unconvincing statement yesterday, which is a betrayal of regional interest, but I looked at reactions to it this morning. Is the Prime Minister aware of criticism of it from the Confederation of British Industry, the Trades Union Congress, trainers, managers and employers? When today's unemployment figures stand at a November record of 3,223,000, why does the right hon. Lady still want to hit simultaneously at investment, employment and training? What makes her insist on destroying the means of people, regions and firms to help themselves to get work?

If the right hon. Gentleman heard the statement he will know that the average cost per job is £35,000, which seems a high cost for creating jobs. I should have thought that he was keen on getting better value for money. Indeed, he said as much in a speech on 6 October 1983, when he spoke about Labour party policy. He said:

"We plan to get the maximum advantage out of that expenditure and we very much do want value for money because it is our money."

We want better value for money and better jobs for money. The Prime Minister wants neither.

The right hon. Gentleman is speaking nonsense. If he wants better value he will get it from the way that we are going. If he wants better and more jobs, will he stop supporting the miners' strike?

In seeking to assist my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, may I ask her to assure us, especially 130 of her colleagues who will not accept the decision of the Secretary of State for Education and Science, that he will not be allowed to phase out the minimum maintenace grant and, for the first time in nearly a quarter of a century, to charge fees for higher education courses?

My hon. Friend will be aware from the autumn statement that this year money for education has been increased by £140 million. There are many demands on funds and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has followed some of the demands made previously in the House that more should be given to science. Part of the money that comes from the change in student awards goes to increasing the sum spent on the science budget. In the next two years £10 million will go towards improving laboratories and equipment, and in each of the next two years £14 million will go to enable the research councils to undertake more high quality research projects. My hon. Friend will know that 100,000 families will not make any contribution to students' grants. He will also know that we have the most generous system of student grants——

indicated dissent.

If one lived in Japan it would be lower, in Sweden it would be lower, and in the United States it would be very much less generous.

Order. I ask the House not to shout and laugh when the Prime Minister is answering questions, because when that happens I cannot hear her, and neither can anyone else.

Given today's disgraceful unemployment figures, how does the Prime Minister expect students to find part-time jobs, as recommended by the Secretary of State for Education and Science, to finance their education?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, many of them frequently do. In addition to the £700 million that taxpayers give towards student grants, there is also an extra amount of about £100 million that is not taken into account in that figure for housing benefit and supplementary benefit in the recesses.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 November.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Is the Prime Minister aware that yesterday's statement on regional policy will have a devastating effect on many communities? Is she further aware that it is another kick in the teeth for the mining communities, especially in west Yorkshire and the Castleford travel-to-work area— [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] If hon. Members listen I shall tell them. Is the Prime Minister aware that if she has no plan to assist those areas we shall have a continuation of the unfortunate incidents that have occurred in my constituency during the past week, and that she will be held responsibile?

The hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense, and he knows it. How he dares to say that in a week during which—long before the announcement was made—we have seen violence at a level and of a pitch that we never expected to see in this country is a mystery. If the hon. Gentleman wants the maximum number of jobs from the expenditure of money, he should approve of a system that links the subsidies to the jobs created. It would be ridiculous to link it to anything else.

Will my right hon. Friend reflect on the traffic chaos last night caused by the student demonstration on Westminster bridge? Does she agree that the organisers of such demonstrations not only cause enormous irritation and inconvenience to the general public, but prevent the emergency services, doctors and surgeons from getting through to people whose lives may be at risk? Should not court fines reflect the gravity of those circumstances?

I believe that it was a disgraceful demonstration, which stopped traffic, ambulances and fire engines, and undermined any sympathy that some people may have for the students. [Interruption.] I repeat that no students anywhere in the world are treated more generously than British students. In Sweden and Japan they would receive loans, and in many other countries they would receive part loans and part grants. Britain has the most generous student grants in the world, and such demonstrations undermine the faith of those of us who have continued to give student grants.

How does the Prime Minister conceivably justify the withdrawal of special area assistance from the areas that have already been hardest hit under her Government? Why does she show such enthusiasm for this measure of combined stupidity and meanness?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the total available for regional aid covers a larger area than it did previously— [Interruption.] Not so much will be given to special development areas, but there were many problems in those parts of the country which were just outside development areas, especially in the west midlands. The regional grants cover a wider area and make grants available to more people. They also link the grants to the number of jobs created. I should also point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government, by knocking off the national insurance surcharge, have probably done more for jobs than any other Government.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 November.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some minutes ago.

Did my right hon. Friend hear about the corporation dust cart that screeched to a halt outside a Scottish bank yesterday morning, whereupon the driver leapt out and placed his application for British Telecom shares at five minutes to 10? Is it not good news for Britain that at the beginning of next week probably over 1 million more people will become first-time share owners? Does she agree that one of the things that riles Labour Members is that many of those new shareholders will be Labour supporters, who have ignored threats of renationalisation?

Yes, the denationalisation of British Telecom will bring many people into share ownership and independence for the first time. The Labour party cannot tolerate that, because it wants people to be under its thumb and not to be independent with their own shares and their own homes.

Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to the case of Brenda Greenwood, the first miner's wife to be thrown into prison for voicing her opposition to pit closures? Is she aware that her attempts to crush and criminalise all opposition will fail in Britain, as it did in pre-war Germany?

Unlike pre-war Germany, this country has a totally independent system of the rule of law. [Interruption.] I would have hoped, if it is not a forlorn hope, that one day the right hon. Gentleman and the Opposition would totally condemn violence and see that the violence on the picket line and the violence perpetrated in the name of this strike is stopped. From the fact that they do not we shall draw our own conclusion—that they wish to continue the strike by that method.