asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the proposals to limit the range of drugs prescribed under the National Health Service.

The proposals for limited list prescribing announced on 8 November 1984 by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services have been the subject of consultation with the medical, dental and pharmaceutical professions and the pharmaceutical industry. The consultation period ended on 31 January and the many responses received are now being considered.

Will my hon. Friend give the most serious consideration to the introduction of an over-rule that drugs not on the list may be prescribed under the NHS subject to accountability to the local general medical committee? Would that not ensure not only that doctors could meet all clinical needs, but that they would be less likely to trade up, which could dramatically reduce savings?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's comment. He will know that it is our intention that the list of NHS drugs should meet all clinical needs, but if it is demonstrated that there is a real problem in particular circumstances, we shall consider how best to deal with it. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestion.

The 900 people employed at the Parke-Davis factory in my constituency could be severely affected if the list is restricted. Has the Secretary of State for Wales, as I requested, made representations to his colleague the Secretary of State for Social Services pointing out the serious employment consequences if the proposed drugs list goes through?

My right hon. Friend has of course been closely involved with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services because of the responsibility that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has for health in Wales. He has made known his views about likely effects on the pharmaceutical industry in Wales. I cannot comment further on our proposal until conclusions have been reached.

Is it possible for my hon. Friend to give assurances that where there is a long history of a patient being allergic or intolerant to certain generic drugs, but able to take some particular proprietary drug, the doctor will have some scope for selecting such a drug?

My hon. Friend is basically on the same point as my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan), and I stress yet again that it is our intention that the list should meet all clinical needs, but we are aware of problems, and they will be considered before the final list is drawn up.

Why does the Minister not accept the method suggested by the Greenfield report, which will lead to savings in the drugs bill that will not discriminate against the less well-off members of our society?

We have no intention of discriminating against the less well-off members of our society, and I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the comments by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health in an Adjournment debate last Thursday. He said:

"The Government have no intention of debarring any of the poor or elderly from the treatment, free if necessary, under the NHS that they require. We have every intention that under the NHS it should be possible for doctors and patients to have access to a complete list of preparations, which is sufficient to cope with all the clinical and medical needs of the service."—[Official Report, 7 February 1985; Vol. 72, c. 1231.]

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a capacity for real saving in the prescribing of drugs by ensuring that doctors, whether through oversight or otherwise, do not over-prescribe? Many recipients of drugs commonly find that they are given far more than they need for a course of treatment. Will my hon. Friend look into that aspect?

The point has been made by hon. Members on each side of the House, in particular in the debate on 8 November. There has been a doubling of the cost of drugs used in Wales. In 1978–79 the cost was £41·2 million; in 1983–84 it had risen to £80·7 million. That is an increase of 96 per cent.

Does the Minister appreciate that Aneurin Bevan introduced a National Health Service based on the principle that the best health service should be available to all, and that money should not be the consideration or the passport to better and quicker treatment?

It is clear that the hon. Gentleman has not listened to my remarks. It is our intention that the drugs list will cope with all clinical needs of people within the Health Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why the details of the settlement between the Welsh Health Services Technical Organisation, S. W. Milburn and Partners and W. S. Atkins and Partners pertaining to structural and material defects at the Heath hospital, Cardiff, were not published at the time of the settlement; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. I intend to make a statement to the House tomorrow.

So grave, in my judgment, is the breach that the Secretary of State for Wales has committed against the House in this matter, that he could do no other than reply that he will make a statement. But in the meantime, will the Secretary of State, having presided over the most massive administrative blunder in the history of the Welsh Office, and being known throughout Wales as Mr. "Nobody-tells-me-anything" Edwards, will he explain why, in a parliamentary reply in May 1983, he denied me access to reports on the hospital on the ground that they were relevant to litigation, and now admits that he so failed to monitor the chaos of that litigation that he knew of the final settlement only by reading the South Wales Echo?

Order. I appeal for briefer questions, otherwise we shall not get anywhere today.

So many, so serious, so wild and so inaccurate are the allegations that I think it best that I deal with them all in the statement tomorrow. The hon. Gentleman is wrong in most of his allegations, including the allegation that the matter was out of time.

My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on the way that he has acted so typically quickly and completely correctly in the matter, in obtaining a full disclosure of all the information.

I would welcome the fullest possible examination, becsause it is a story that covers many years, many organisations, many people, and different Administrations. I believe that there are lessons to be learnt from it. I will accept my degree of responsibility in the matter; I hope that others involved will accept theirs.

When he makes his statement, will the Secretary of State explain how he reconciles the concept of ministerial responsibility with his statement that he knew about the settlement only when he read about it last week in the newspapers? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the House will not accept as honourable a Cabinet Minister who tells the House, "It is not my fault. My officials got it wrong."?

I shall deal with those points in my statement tomorrow. It might also be a good idea if at some point it could be decided whether it is right that your rulings, Mr. Speaker, should appear for the first time not in the House but in the South Wales Echo.

In supporting what my right hon. and hon. Friends have said, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether the legal proceedings and writs involve any other major hospitals in the Principality? Has the right hon. Gentleman in any way concealed the true cost of repairs at the Heath hospital? In his estimate of an outline cost of £4 million, in reply to a parliamentary question from me, did he leave out the cost of repairing the roofs?

That £4 million figure is absolutely correct and will be dealt with in my statement tomorrow. A writ was issued on 1 November in respect of Ysbyty Gwynedd and a statement of claim is being prepared.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken to discourage cigarette smoking (a)in his Department and (b) amongst the general public in Wales since 1979.

In addition to various nationwide activities by the Government to discourage smoking, specific action in Wales includes the provision of funds for Action on Smoking and Health and the production of bilingual advice to retailers and schools to combat smoking by children. Within the Welsh Office, certain no smoking areas are already designated and an extension of them is being considered.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the cost in lives and to the Health Service in Wales of cardiac and respiratory diseases, let alone cancer? What success is his campaign likely to have?

Of course I hope that our campaign is very successful in Wales. My hon. Friend is certainly right, in that many deaths and much of the incidence of heart disease are due to smoking. Indeed, I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security on 14 December 1984. It is because of the relationship, particularly in Wales, between smoking and heart disease that the health community in Wales welcomes the Welsh heart programme.

Will my hon. Friend take it from me that such interference is absolutely intolerable? Although I accept that there is everything to be said for educating children about smoking, will my hon. Friend accept that if adults wish to smoke,, that is entirely up to them and has nothing to do with the state?

No, I cannot agree with my hon. Friend. There is a connection between smoking and disease. Although I am a smoker, I say so with regret, and can only say video meliora proboque deteriora sequor.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ensure that Government measures to restrict capital expenditure by local authorities in Wales take full account of the loss of assisted area status and of diminished access to European Economic Community loans and grants.

The Government measures announced last December are restrictive only in the sense that they should ensure a much closer match between local authorities' capital spending and the sum allowed for this in the Government's expenditure plans than has been the case this year under the previous arrangements.

In the light of that reply, will my right hon. Friend assure me that no local authority will find that its calculations on the availability of capital for urban schemes or such like will be seriously affected by the unexpected withdrawal of assisted area status, leading in turn to reduced ability to obtain, for example, loans from the European Investment Bank?

Capital allocations are now largely determined by formulae agreed with the local authority associations. Urban programme applications are considered individually on their merits. As I have already told my hon. Friend, we are considering whether any further action is possible in connection with the European Community.

Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that Government restrictions on capital expenditure have, to some extent, at least in mid-Wales, been counterbalanced by the successful activities of Mid-Wales Development? When shall we hear that Mid-Wales Development is to have a substantially increased budget for the next financial year?

I agree that Mid-Wales Development has been doing extremely good work. For example, I welcome its contribution to the recent Laura Ashley decision. The announcement about the budget will be made shortly. I cannot anticipate the amount. but among other matters the Laura Ashley involvement will be properly taken into account.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that local authorities' accumulated capital receipts will remain theirs to spend and that they will be spent by the local authorities as soon as it is possible to remove the restrictions by the Government on that spending?

Yes. We have already said that we intend local authorities to spend the money over a number of years rather than in a single year, since many of them have already, in effect, used the money once by increasing their borrowing in the last year or two. We shall have to spread the expenditure over more than a single year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what response he has made to the findings of the Cynon Valley housing survey.

The 1981 Welsh house condition survey had already made clear the poor condition of much of the housing in the south Wales valleys. As the House well knows, the need for extensive renovation and repair lay behind the Government's recent grants initiative. The particular situation in Cynon valley—as in all district council areas—was taken into account when determining the housing capital expenditure allocations.

I am afraid that the Minister has not answered the question. On 24 January my council in the Cynon valley sent the Minister the house condition survey of the valley, which that 48 per cent. of private housing is unfit for human habitation. Will the Minister receive a deputation from the council and make additional resources available under the capital programme, to come out of the housing improvement programme, to deal with the serious and shocking housing conditions in the Cynon valley which without doubt are the worst in Wales and probably the worst in the whole of Britain?

I am already aware of the council's request to send a deputation to see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Consultative mechanisms already exist for discussing such matters. It would be easier to be more sympathetic Cynon valley if it had a better record of spending on renovating its private sector stock.

When will the Government recognise the need to build new houses in areas such as the Cynon valley, which has such massive unemployment? Does the Minister agree that a housing drive would not only improve the infrastructure at a stroke, but provide jobs where they are so vitally needed?

It is for the local authorities to decide their spending priorities within their allocations. There is a record spend on housing for 1984–85. Apart from 1983–84, when there was exceptionally high expenditure on improvement grants, 1984–85 is the subject of the highest forecast expenditure figure for housing in Wales over a run of years going back to 1978–79.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps are proposed to minimise the further risk of pollution of the River Dee.

Improved monitoring introduced following the pollution incident in January 1984 has enabled recent incidents to be detected in sufficient time to prevent polluted water entering the public supply. A working group established by the statutory water undertakers which abstract water from the Dee is considering the need for further measures, and its report will be made public shortly.

I accept that the majority of companies act responsibly after a pollution incident. However, does the Minister agree that, in the light of the phenol incident last year, it would be desirable if there was an obligation on companies to notifiy the water authority as soon as possible after any pollution incident?

I am very glad to tell the hon. Gentleman something that he may already know — that the last incident, when some melamine was deposited in the river, was reported by the company of its own volition. I agree that when pollution is even suspected it is highly desirable that any company associated with it or knowing anything about it should report it to the relevant authority.

Will my hon. Friend tell me how much the voluntary system depends on the co-operation of local companies? Will he assure us that they can all be relied upon to be as conscientious as Kronospan at Chirk?

The procedures adopted after the first phenol pollution incident in January 1984 have been very successful. Although there have been two pollution incidents since then, the intakes of water from the Dee into the public supply system were closed in time so that the pollutants did not enter the supply system. The water authorities and the companies involved are to be congratulated on their prompt action after the phenol incident.

Is the Minister aware that the Connahs Quay town council and the Alyn and Deeside district council still favour a public inquiry into the phenol incident, which poisoned many thousands of my constituents? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that those who requested a public inquiry were told that a court case would ensue? It did not ensue. People on Deeside are angry and astonished that there is not to be a public inquiry. May we have one, please?

We must ask ourselves whether a public inquiry would serve any useful purpose, and I believe that the answer to that is no. Following the phenol incident, the chief executives of the authorities and the companies concerned set up, their own inquiry and instituted remedial action. In addition, something known as the Dee working group was set up and it will be reporting shortly. When the report is published, I hope that Opposition Members will give it as much publicity as they can so that consumers' fears are allayed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are unemployed in (a) Clwyd and (b) Wales compared with 1979, as a total and as a percentage; and, of the total unemployed, how many are long-term unemployed.

On 10 January 1985 there were 25,105 unemployed claimants in Clwyd. A comparable claimant-based figure for 1979 is not available. The figure for registered unemployed in January 1979 was 13,569. For Wales as a whole, for the same dates, the figures on a claimant-basis calculation were 185,529 and 86,416 respectively, an increase of 114·7 per cent. The latest figures for the long-term unemployed relate to January 1985, when 75,697 had been unemployed in Wales for over one year.

In the light of those quite disparate figures, will the right hon. Gentleman seek an emergency jobs package from his Cabinet colleagues? Will not his tenure of office be remembered as terribly destructive to manufacturing industries in Wales? With more than one in five men in Wales jobless, and growing social and economic problems ensuing from those policies, is not the right hon. Gentleman's record the worst of any Secretary of State for Wales?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we are spending about £2 billion on employment and special training measures, and that more than 41,000 people in Wales were covered by those measures at the end of December 1984. There is also a massive capital programme in Wales. I am glad to say that, as a result of the activities of the agencies and other Government initiatives, a large quantity of new investment is being made, much of it in Clwyd, which has been outstandingly successful in attracting new projects which are building their labour forces.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the process of finding badly needed new jobs in Clwyd would have begun much earlier and been much more successful had it not been for pressure from both sides of the House to delay the closure of the steelworks at Shotton?

The problems of the steel industry were undoubtedly magnified by the fact that essential decisions were not taken earlier. But hon. Members on both sides of the House must welcome the way in which the Welsh steel industry has faced competition during the past two or three years and made itself outstandingly successful.

In view of those terrible figures — the worst in Wales, at any rate since the 1930s—will the Secretary of State take into account the fact that he has added insult to grievous injury by telling me in a letter that the cut in regional aid will assist in creating employment? When will the cut have that beneficial effect, and what will be its precise effect in the areas deprived of special development status?

We believe that the new regional scheme will be more beneficial and cost-effective than the previous scheme. There will be no cut in regional expenditure in Wales during the next couple of years; the reduction will come only after that. The area which the right hon. Gentleman represents retains the highest level of assistance under the new scheme and is in an especially good position to compete.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that major contributors to unemployment are political strikes and real pay rates increasing faster than productivity?

Political strikes are undoubtedly especially damaging, although it must be said that any industrial dispute may threaten jobs. I hope that the unhappy dispute now taking place in Merthyr will be brought to an end, because we all hope that the new investment being committed for the Hoover plant there will go ahead and that the future of that plant will be safeguarded.

This is a civil question, and I hope that I shall receive a civil answer from the Secretary of State. When does he expect the figures for unemployment, in percentage and number terms, to return to the figures for May 1979?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that no Minister in any Administration has ever made such a forecast. It would be foolish to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council houses have been sold to sitting tenants in Wales since May 1979.

A total of 39,432 council dwellings were sold to sitting tenants in Wales between May 1979 and 30 September 1984. In addition, 2,292 dwellings were sold by the Cwmbran Development Corporation and Mid-Wales Development.

How do those figures relate to right-to-buy applications?

There were more than 60,000 right-to-buy applications to Welsh local authorities. In addition, more than 3,000 applications were received from tenants of Mid-Wales Development and the Cwmbran Development Corporation. At the end of September 1984, sales represented about 59 per cent. of right-to-buy applications and about 88 per cent. of live applications. Offer notices have been issued to about 88 per cent. of applicants.

The Minister, in response to an earlier question, ingenuously said that housing expenditure this year was the highest since 1978–79, thus comparing expenditure with years of Conservative control only. Does he not feel some shame at the fact that sales of council houses have gone ahead at a time when house building in both the public and private sectors has slumped terribly under this Government and when the property that is being sold is not being replaced?

The hon. Gentleman knows only too well that sales of council houses to sitting tenants do not decrease the housing stock. The secure tenants who have bought would have remained as tenants had they not become owners. There is no doubt that sales of council houses have resulted in considerable receipts for local authorities, and those receipts have been spent on improving older properties. The Government's policy has been extremely successful both in increasing home ownership and in improving the housing stock.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the principles of the right-to-buy legislation are being extended fairly to all tenants of houses owned by county councils in Wales?

My hon. Friend will know that the Housing and Building Control Act 1984 extended the right to buy to groups of tenants who did not previously qualify, including some county council tenants. The Act increased the maximum discount to 60 per cent. and introduced the right to buy on a shared ownership basis. I am satisfied with the implementation of the Act.

Does the Minister agree that one result of the sale of council houses is that district councils have been supplying large sums of money by way of mortgages? If so, will he explain why the Welsh Office is dictating to district councils what they can do with the mortgages? As the mortgages are the assets of the district councils, they should be allowed to use them as such.

Local authorities have been lending money for the purchase of council houses. That is a right that tenants have under the right-to-buy legislation. It is entirely for the local authorities to decide what they will do with the mortgage books. If they choose, as many have, to sell the books to the private sector, I see no objection to that.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the male, female, youth and total unemployment rates for Mid-Glamorgan for the latest available date.

On 10 January 1985 in Mid-Glamorgan there were 26,264 males unemployed, a rate of 23·3 per cent., 9,884 females or 13·1 per cent., giving a total of 36,148, or a rate of 19·2 per cent. The number of unemployed youngsters between 16 and 19 in October 1984 totalled 7,800 or 4·1 per cent.

First, may I suggest to the Secretary of State that he has a word with the chairman of British Rail? I am sure that British Rail could reduce the unemployment figures by employing a few extra linesmen to hasten the unfreezing process for the HS125 service from Cardiff to London.

I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House would wish to express regret at the death of some linesmen on British Rail last night in a sad and unhappy accident, and I take this opportunity to do so.

However much the Secretary of State tries to sugar the pill, the fact is that Wales has suffered a massive cut in regional aid. My constituency is again at the top of the league table with 27·7 per cent. male unemployment—the highest unemployment rate in the whole of Wales. The only things that the Secretary of State can offer are factories such as Hitachi which encourages people at the age of 35 to become redundant. The National Coal Board plans to shut at least one pit in my constituency. What hope can the Secretary of State offer to those men in my constituency who, under this Government, have only long-term unemployment to which to look forward?

I am sure that the hon. Lady welcomes the fact that her constituency receives the maximum assistance under the new regional policy scheme. I am sure that she also welcomes the fact that there is no blockage of an area with an even higher level of assistance further to the east. I am surprised at the suggestion implicit in the hon. Lady's question, that she was somehow running down the jobs provided by firms such as Hitachi, which provide not only jobs but a degree of technical innovation and standard of management which are likely to improve job prospects generally.

The right hon. Gentleman has cited statistics which depict the daunting problems of our valley communities. Why, therefore, do the Government propose to close skillcentres in South Wales? Since the Scottish local authority member of the MSC has resiled from his support for closure, the Secretary of State now has the excuse to go to the Cabinet and say that the skillcentre at, for example, Pontllanfraith should not close. Will the right hon. Gentleman do that?

Part of the MSC's programme is to extend and enlarge the training programme, and to provide in a more flexible way, more, not fewer, training places in Wales. The MSC has recently put specific proposals to Ministers, which are being considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will provide additional finances to the East Dyfed health authority to enable the completed intensive care unit to receive patients.

No, Sir. East Dyfed health authority is responsible for the revenue cost of running the intensive care unit.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware of the deep outrage felt in that area, especially as almost one third of the money for the capital cost of that unit came from the public and recently the unit has been lucky enough to have a consultant cardiologist?

If there is a sense of outrage, I am afraid that it reflects on the East Dyfed health authority, because the authority should not have embarked upon the unit until it was sure that it had the money to run it. I am aware that, of the total capital cost of £341,000, some £54,000 was raised from voluntary sources locally and £287,000 came from the district health authority. As I understand it, the authority is waiting for some savings to be made. It is to be hoped that the unit will be opened in the not-too-distant future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what effect a megaton nuclear burst at a height of 300 miles overhead would have on the equipment and resources in his charge.

I am advised that there would be no physical damage by blast, shock or heat, but that the electromagnetic pulse produced could cause damage to unprotected electrical and electronic equipment over a wide area.

Can my right hon. Friend assure me that his Department will be studying the effects of electromagnetic pulses, and will he ensure that the civil defence authorities in Wales have that information and are able to plan effectively with it?

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department is responsible for these matters and for giving that kind of advice, and I shall draw his attention to my hon. Friend's point.

Does not the description of the electromagnetic effect on Wales bear a startling resemblance to the Government's effect on the country at large?

I am not sure that that arises from the question that I have answered.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the male unemployment figures in Swansea at the latest available date; and what were the figures for the equivalent months since 1978.

On 10 January 1985 the male unemployment figure for the Swansea travel-to-work area was 13,816. Comparable figures for earlier years are not available because of changes to travel-to-work area boundaries and the move to claimant-based figures.

Have not male unemployment figures in the Swansea area increased by roughly three times since 1979, when they stood at about 8 per cent.? They are now almost 23 per cent. Does the Secretary of State recall that when he was Opposition spokesman there was a large advertisement in Swansea in 1979 which read, "Labour is not working"? Is he not now ashamed of the con trick which over the years has led to three times the male unemployment of 1979?

We must all be anxious about rising unemployment. The hon. Gentleman was no doubt worried when it rose steeply under the Labour Administration that he supported. He will be aware that we have been taking a number of measures, particularly in his constituency, to attract new investment and jobs. There have been notable successes through the urban programme in regenerating the lower Swansea Valley, and the enterprise zone there is proving a considerable success.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he is taking to harden vulnerable equipment in his charge against the effects of nuclear electromagnetic pulse.

None, Sir.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that adequate places are available on training courses so that those who need to know about the effects of the nuclear electromagnetic pulse can learn, study and make provision for such an emergency?

Once again, that is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary. I shall draw that suggestion to his attention.

Will my right hon. Friend deprecate the decisions of some county councils in Wales, under whose charge the citizens are placed in the event of such a catastrophe occurring, not to involve themselves fully in civil defence matters? Will he also remind the House that a unilateral declaration that Wales is a nuclear-free zone is not of much use unless the Kremlin agrees to it as well?

I agree entirely with what my hon. Friend says. I believe that it is of great importance that we should pursue civil defence measures. My Department will continue to give every possible encouragement to the activities of those involved to ensure that proper civil defence arrangements are made.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total number of unemployed in Wales in 1979 and at the latest date; and what is the change, expressed as a percentage of the 1979 figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total number of males and females unemployed in Wales at the latest date for which figures are available; how many were unemployed in May 1979; and what, in percentage terms, is the difference.

On 10 January 1985 total unemployment in Wales was 185,529, comprising 131,720 males and 53,809 females. In May 1979 the equivalent figures were 77,200, 55,800, and 21,400, respectively—an increase of 140·3, 136·1 and 151·4 per cent.

In relation to those disgraceful figures, has the Secretary of State's attention been drawn to the article in the Financial Times this morning, which said that the Japanese Honda company had acquired a huge 330-acre site in Swindon for the development of an engine plant and full car production? Does he appreciate the anxiety that that has caused throughout British Leyland's ranks? If that project is to go ahead, will he ensure that the Government have the necessary powers to see that that plant comes to South Wales; or is he prepared to see the further rundown of our communities?

I have, of course, seen this morning's press reports. I am aware that Honda has taken a site at Swindon, where it intends to carry out pre-delivery inspection of cars manufactured jointly with BL as well as perhaps producing certain components. No proposal for a major car assembly facility has been put to the Government by Honda. If such a proposal were advanced, we should clearly have to consider it carefully and judge whether mutually acceptable arrangements to benefit the United Kingdom as a whole could be worked out.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received asking him to take early steps to make acquired immune deficiency syndrome a notifiable disease in Wales.

I have not received any representations on this matter.

Does my hon. Friend agree that information from other countries, including the United States and Australia, shows that there is a terrifying possibility that this disease will spread? Does he also agree that there is probably far too much complacency about the matter in this country?

The Government are certainly not complacent. We are very concerned, but the consensus of the DHSS expert advisory group on AIDS is that there are, as yet, no clinical grounds to support making AIDS a notifiable disease. However, the point is very much under consideration. While appreciating the gravity of the problem, we are anxious not to cause unnecessary panic.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what representations Her Majesty's Government have had regarding future funding for the National Theatre; and if he will make a statement.

My noble Friend had a case put to him and discussed it with the theatre's chairman; but it is for the Arts Council to decide the level of funding.

Will the hon. Gentleman persuade his noble Friend to look at separate funding for the National Theatre building, in the way that the National Gallery and the British Museum are separately funded, and thus allow the National Theatre to continue to produce plays of excellence and to collect seven-figure sums in VAT for the Treasury?

That is one point which I am sure Sir Peter Hall put to my noble Friend. If it means that, from one source or another, more money is to be spent on the National Theatre, that will have to be met out of the budget somehow.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the superb and brillant standards of acting and production at the National Theatre do not always require quite such lavish sets and costumes and extras as they sometimes receive? Does he agree also that it is not self-evident why a cut of one fiftieth in real terms in the grant should lead to the closure of the Cottesloe Theatre and the sacking of 100 people? Is Sir Peter Hall sacrificing his staff to make a point?

I saw a suggeston in an article by Michael Ratcliffe at the weekend that Sir Peter Hall might be closing the Cottesloe to make the maximum stink. I doubt whether that is so. We must remember that the National Theatre has had an increase in its budget from the Arts Council since 1979 of a little more than the inflation rate. Therefore, it should be able to live within those figures.

What is the use of having a great and adventurous National Theatre and a Cabinet of barbarians? Cannot we get rid of the second instead of the first?

One of the things that soon gets lost in any discussion of money for the arts is relevance to reality. The right hon. Gentleman has given us another example of that. There has been an 18 per cent. real increase in Government spending on the arts since 1978–79, and that is not a record of which to be ashamed.

As my hon. Friend is a distinguished hon. Member and not only not a barbarian, but a Fellow of All Souls, would he care to essay an answer to Machiavelli's question, "What good is power without glory?" Is not the National Theatre one of our greatest glories? I appointed an independent commission to examine the financing of the Victoria and Albert Museum and my successor appointed an independent commission to examine the financing of the Royal Opera House. Could not my hon. Friend do the same for the National Theatre and give satisfaction all round?

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his kind words. Certainly we need the glory, but, as the Arts Council has said, perhaps the glory needs to be spread around the country. That is one reson why some pressure has been brought to bear on the London companies. I believe that an investigation by the National Theatre is already in train. We hope that when other ways of raising money have been examined, the Cottesloe will still be open.

If the Minister believes that Sir Peter Hall is not closing the Cottesloe to make a point, presumably he accepts that it was inexorable that its closure would follow the level of grant given?

No, I do not think that that necessarily follows. There must be a whole range of things to which the National Theatre and other companies can look. For example, it is always taken that the level of pay is given in all those matters. I am not sure whether that should be accepted without question.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the investigation by Lord Rayner has already corroborated the need to close the Cottesloe Theatre so that the National Theatre can survive the cuts that are taking place? Does he agree that the Arts Council's reduction in the amount that should have gone to the National Theatre as a result of its policy of taking the arts out to the regions will kill off the main trunk that is necessary to sustain the arts?

With respect to my hon. Friend, I think that we must keep some sense of proportion. The National Theatre will still get a larger grant — it is a considerably larger amount — than that of any other theatre company in the country. I believe that just under £7 million in subsidy to the National Theatre is not unfair when taken with the fact that there has been a real increase in its funding since 1978–79.

If the Cottesloe closes, the Minister's noble Friend will be the first Minister for the Arts to be responsible for shutting rather than opening a theatre that is the subject of public funds Is that not a disgraceful turn of events? Will the hon. Gentleman report to those responsible how the House feels about the matter, and bring about a change in policy?

My noble Friend is no more responsible for closing the Cottesloe Theatre than he is for the superlative performance of "Guys and Dolls" which National Theatre put on this year. Those are matters for the management of the theatre, in conjunction with the Arts Council.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the quality of Sir Peter Hall's work has always been excellent and stimulating? However, does he agree that the National Theatre is receiving a subidy of nearly £7 million a year, and that Sir Peter Hall should be able to cut his coat according to that cloth?

Sir Peter Hall's work has always been adventurous and always on a large scale. The successes have been on a large scale and sometimes the failures have also been on a large scale, as we saw with "Jean Seberg". The whole purpose is to be adventurous. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that with such a scale of financing it is possible to produce good theatre in the centre of London.

Is the Minister aware that there is a link between the low level of settlement which the Government made on the Arts Council this year, rate capping and the abolition of the Greater London council? When will he become alarmed and worried, and indeed honest, and admit that the Government have betrayed the arts?

There is no relationship between those things. The hon. Gentleman may have noticed that the GLC has not yet been abolished, unfortunately; and it may be of interest for him to know that the Arts Council's funding for the National Theatre has increased a little faster than the GLC's funding for the National Theatre since the Labour party took over the GLC.

The Minister must not rest on this business of the amount of money being given to the National Theatre. It is not one theatre, but three. It has been bequeathed an extremely costly building at over £2 million. Is not the truth simply that, not content with running down our manufacturing and coal industries and, for that matter, the pound, the Government are equally complacent about running down one of our national glories? If we have any respect left in the world under the Government, it is with regard to our National Theatre. Will the hon. Gentleman bring the matter back to the Cabinet? He might remind the Prime Minister that the last major play put on at the National Theatre was about Coriolanus, who was not totally dissimilar, apart from his unfortunate predeliction for compassion now and again. The hon. Gentleman might show the same in relation to the arts.

I shall not venture into arguments about Coriolanus with the hon. Gentleman. We must remember that funding for the arts has increased sharply since 1978–79—by 18 per cent. in real terms. There has been a real terms increase this year as well.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what representations Her Majesty's Government have received on his planned expenditure on public libraries in 1985–86.

None, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that the public expenditure White Paper shows a real decrease of £55 million in Government expenditure on libraries next year? Is he further aware that that decrease is forcing library authorities throughout the country to cut services, that Somerset has had to abandon all spending on adult fiction, and that the Highlands and Islands have had to reduce their book fund by 82 per cent? What does he intend to do about that? Does he perhaps think that libraries were overfunded this year and thus require a decrease next year?

Since 1978–79 there has been a reduction of only 1 per cent. in the number of people employed in the public library service. My noble Friend is satisfied that the level of provision is adequate, although no doubt there are hard choices to be made in individual instances.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what representations he has received with regard to tax advantages to private sector fenders of the arts.

My noble Friend the Minister for the Arts has received some letters from the National Federation of Playgoers' Societies advocating further tax concessions. The question of tax reliefs for the arts continues to be kept under review.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is continuing concern about the activities of the Inland Revenue special unit at Bristol, which tends to depress available private sponsorship for the arts? Is he further aware that the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts is currently collecting representations from its members and that a document prepared by leading accountants will be in the Minister's hands in April? Will he give that document and those representations the most careful consideration?

I was aware that ABSA was looking into this, and I will take seriously any representations submitted by it, although I am not aware of any evidence that the Inland Revenue has changed or tightened its rules in this area.