asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement regarding the latest position on the teachers' pay claim and the effect of industrial action by particular teachers' unions on pupils' education in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals his Department has to protect pupils' interests during any industrial action taken by teaching unions.

Teachers' pay and conditions of service in England and Wales are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. So far, industrial action in Wales has been limited to the half day strike last Tuesday by members of the National Association of Schoolmasters/Union of Women Teachers. I deplore this action because it can only interfere with the preparation of pupils for this summer's public examinations; but it is of course for the local education authorities to do what they can to minimise the effects of the dispute on pupils.

Does my hon. Friend agree that by taking strike action teachers harm the education of children and their professional status? Does he further agree that teachers can enhance their status only by accepting a much closer link between performance and pay?

My hon. Friend has put his finger on two important points. First, I have always been taught by educationists that the finest method of teaching is by precept. By taking this action, teachers are setting a very bad example. Secondly, teachers have gone in for disruption although, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said last week, their pay has kept pace with inflation since 1979.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, although most teachers give sterling service to the pupils in their charge, they might have learnt from a recent example that blind loyalty to the leaders of their unions will repay them ill?

Underlying the strike is the fear of the possibility of assessment. There are few professions or other occupations in which continuous assessment of performance is not inherent. That is especially true of Members of Parliament.

After the miners, do the Government now consider that the teachers of Wales are the enemy within?

Most certainly not. Most teachers in Britain, especially in Wales, give excellent service and are vital to our future.

Will the Minister assure the House that, if the teaching dispute lasts one year, the Government will not spend the first six months telling the House and the country that they have nothing to do with it and the second six months actively trying to prevent negotiations?

I do not accept the basic premise of the hon. Gentleman's question. My answer to both parts of his question is no, Sir.

Does the Minister agree that the Government's action in response to the teachers' dispute has been set by the policies that they followed in respect of the miners' dispute? How else can we explain the Government giving misleading statements, misleading teachers' unions about their intentions and doing nothing other than sowing bitterness and confusion in the minds of teachers?

I do not accept the premise of the hon. Gentleman's question. The Government have been clear about this. There is an offer on the table. It is not the Government or the management who have misled teachers in this case; it is the leaders of the teachers' union which has done so. If the teachers pursue their claim as they are doing at present, it can only mean fewer teachers or fewer resources for other vital educational matters.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there are no winners, only losers, in this strike, and that the losers are the children? Surely one cannot expect a 12 per cent. increase in salary when inflation is running at only 5 per cent. a year.

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I wish that the teachers, who are responsible and well-educated people, would bring this point home to the leaders of their union. The union leaders are not acting in the best way for the union members or for the children, who are the really important people in this matter.

Does the Minister agree that if we are to continue attracting to the profession people of talent and dedication who have spent four years at university to qualify it is time that they were paid better than unqualified and untrained office staff?

I believe it is well known to most hon. Members that there is an offer on the table for the restructuring of salaries which would lead to that highly desirable result. It would be much better if teachers, instead of going for disruptive action, returned to negotiation and sorted out that aspect in order to improve the quality of education. That aim is at the heart of the Government's policies.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the number of general practitioners practising in Wales in 1978–79 and at the latest date for which figures are available.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the increase in the number of general practitioners in Wales since 1979.

At October 1978, including trainees and assistants, there were 1,418 general medical practitioners practising in Wales. The corresponding figure for October 1979 was 1,448 and for October 1983, the latest date for which figures are available, 1,620.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, which once again clearly demonstrates the improvement in health care in Wales. How has the doctor-patient ratio been affected by the increase in numbers?

I am glad to hear my hon. Friend's observation that those figures show our concern to continue improving primary health care in Wales. The average doctor's list is 1,975 patients. This compares with 2,148 patients per doctor in 1978.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many general practitioners regard this Government as the most successful for a long time in the provision of health care? [Interruption.] This year £9 million is being allocated to major hospital developments. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has also taken an initiative with regard to renal dialysis in Bangor, Swansea and Carmarthen. [Interruption.] The Department is examining provisions to help cancer sufferers in North Wales, which I welcome, and to expand the bone marrow transplantation unit. A major initiative has been taken to examine the incidence of heart disease in Wales. These matters should surely be acknowledged by everyone.

In spite of all the jeering from the Opposition, my hon. Friend is absolutely right in saying that the NHS in Wales is advancing on all fronts. Recurring revenue resources have been increased by 10 per cent. between 1979–80 and 1983–84. There has been a further increase of 2·7 per cent. in 1984–85, and there will be a further 3 per cent. increase next year.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that the NHS is advancing backwards on one front — the limited list of drugs? The overwhelming majority of GPs in Wales have strongly protested about the Government's actions. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, because of the Government's initiative, thousands of disabled people and pensioners are worried that they will not be able to obtain the drugs that they need for their conditions? Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that, since he has responsibility for this matter in Wales, he will think again about the Government's actions?

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that only some one third of prescriptions are paid for. The remaining two thirds are free. With regard to the limited list, the list of some 30 drugs submitted for consultation resulted in a number of representations from GPs and patients in Wales, and we are grateful for them. As a result, the Government have published a new list of some 100 drugs, and we are convinced that they will be adequate to meet all clinical needs.

Do not those figures reflect the fact that, whatever other items of Government expenditure have been affected by necessary changes, a high priority has been given to health services throughout the term of this Government and their Conservative predecessors? Does that not make nonsense of the untrue propaganda to the contrary?

My hon. Friend is right. It is high time that the Opposition acknowledged the advances that have been made in the National Health Service in Wales instead of adopting the cribbing attitude that they have to date.

Will the Minister turn his attention to unemployment among junior doctors; in particular those who have spent four years after qualification being trained for general practice? Those people, on qualifying, have to apply for about 50 or 60 places before they are successful. It is practically impossible for doctors who have qualified overseas to obtain posts. There we have a case of racial discrimination of the first order.

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. He is aware of the contribution to the National Health Service by doctors from abroad. All hon. Members will be ready to acknowledge that. Unemployment is, of course, a matter that junior doctors encounter in the process of obtaining the jobs that they want.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make additional resources available to Cynon Valley district council to enable it to take steps to reduce unemployment and further improve housing conditions within its area.

I note that, as in the Welsh day debate on Thursday, there are more Welsh Conservative Members than Welsh Labour Members in the House for questions today. The answer to the hon. Lady is no. The Cynon Valley district council already has substantial resources available to it. In determining its capital allocations, full account was taken of housing conditions in the Cynon Valley. The Aberdare travel-to-work area is in the upper tier for regional industrial assistance, and the area can draw upon the resources of economic development bodies such as the Welsh Development Agency and NCB (Enterprise) Ltd.

rose—

Order. I shall pre-empt the point of order which I believe is coming.

I was not seeking to raise one, Mr. Speaker.

That was a completely inadequate response to the position in the Cynon Valley. The Minister is clearly still unaware that 48 per cent. of private housing is unfit for human habitation and that we have the highest unemployment rate among males in Wales. His answer will be regarded as completely unacceptable and politically vindictive and motivated. Does he realise that at the present level of funding to areas such as Cynon Valley it will take over 50 years to restore housing to the adequate conditions in which people can live?

If what the hon. Lady says about conditions is correct—the Government vastly increased resources available for improvement of the housing stock in Wales—it is surprising that during the past three or four years the Cynon Valley authority has not used the resources available to it, has not declared any housing action areas, has not taken advantage of low-cost home ownership schemes, and has not taken full advantage of the variety of new initiatives that can be taken, such as enveloping, to improve the housing conditions for those for whom it is responsible.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the greatest damage to the Cynon Valley, which has drained more money from its inhabitants and resulted in a greater threat to employment there, has been done by the miners' strike? Does he accept that those who, disgracefully, have tried to lead it in the locality have done more damage to the constituents than almost anything else could have done?

I agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, the greatest contribution that could now be made to that area would be for everyone involved to get together to restore the health of that industry, to take advantage of the record resources which the Government are making available to the industry, and to seek to restore the markets upon which that industry depends.

This is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to have caused confusion. In respect of the Secretary of State's preamble to his answer, does he not realise and accept that the reason why, on occasions, people do not come along to Welsh days is his utterly awful and crushingly boring speeches?

That was almost a point of order. I was going to say that even Ministers should stick to the question.

The Secretary of State is giving very inadequate and evasive answers. Will he begin a fresh, meticulous survey of housing conditions in Wales, because the Cynon Valley problems exist throughout the length and breadth of the Principality? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the people of Cynon Valley and other deprived communities could have decent housing if we could take the 18,000 unemployed building workers off the dole queues and set them to work building decent houses for people in Cynon Valley and other parts of Wales?

A Welsh housing survey is coming up in 1986. If the hon. Gentleman's wishes for the Cynon Valley are to be realised, it will require the local authority to make full use of the resources and schemes that are available.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of private nursing homes in Wales; and what is his estimate of the percentage of total health care in Wales provided by this sector.

At 31 December 1983, the latest date for which information is available, there were 50 private nursing homes in Wales. They provided 1,414 beds in the private sector, and that compared with the average daily available beds in the NHS at the time of 22,474, of which 49 were authorised for private use.

Is the Minister satisfied with the standard of provision in those private homes and with the level of monitoring? May I refer him particularly to Highmead residential home, run by the Care agency in Cardiff? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in that home residents are expected to pay £175 per week three months in advance? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that pay cheques for staff employed by that home have bounced and staff have had to wait up to three months to receive their pay? Is the Minister further aware that in that home auxiliaries are carrying out the functions which should be carried out by properly trained and qualified staff? Finally is the hon. Gentleman aware that residents in that home have complained that they have not received enough to eat? Is that the standard of provision that the Minister wants? If it is not, what will he do about it?

The hon. Gentleman should know that private nursing homes must be registered under the Registered Homes Act 1984, and that it is up to the local health authority to inspect the premises and see that all is well. It must do so at least twice every 12 months. With regard to the nursing home that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, I shall certainly ensure that that case is looked into.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the new code of practice raising standards in those homes—in itself, very welcome — accompanied by the revised scale of payments which the Department of Health and Social Security is prepared to make to cover the costs in those homes — which is also desirable, in itself — are none the less putting a squeeze on those homes, many of which may be forced to go out of business and to throw their occupants on to the resources of the local authority?

It is certainly the case that registration is not automatic. In view of the valuable contribution that those private nursing homes make to health care, it is absolutely essential that they should be of the highest standard. I understand the point made by my hon. Friend, but in general we would be extremely sad to lose any private homes, because of the value of their contribution.

To what extent does the Minister feel that the mushrooming of small private nursing homes, which are often overseen by untrained people, is alleviating the average waiting time for admission into the numerically stagnant places in local authority homes for the elderly, which are fast becoming mini-geriatric hospitals?

I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman, especially in view of his experience of medical practice, would welcome the fact that private nursing homes help to reduce the waiting list for National Health Service hospitals. Surely that is to be welcomed. Furthermore, patients and doctors have the right to choose private treatment. Far from harming the NHS, the main effects are additions to the country's health care resources and reduced pressure on the NHS.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives have been taken by his Department recently to improve the prospects of securing new job opportunities for Gwynedd.

The county continues to benefit from Government policies and programmes, including road construction, factory building, urban programme and European Community schemes, and from the work of the agencies within Wales. Regional industrial assistance continues to be available for much of the county.

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that he and his Department deliberately and specifically misled local authorities in Wales when he told the areas which were downgraded from development area to ordinary assisted area status and eligible only for selective financial assistance, that they would continue to benefit from regional policy? Will he now recognise that selective financial assistance is in no way regional policy, and that if a factory in Birmingham is willing to do work that would otherwise come to Wales, the work will go to Birmingham rather than to Wales?

I do not acknowledge anything of the sort. That is pure invention.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that only this morning I was in contact with his Department regarding the negotiation of a European Investment Bank loan for a garment manufacturing company, which will come to Holyhead and provide 300 jobs in the near future?

Yes, Sir. I am also aware that there are a considerable number of selective assistance applications for Gwynedd and if they are turned down it will be for very good reasons, as in other parts of the country. They are turned down either on grounds of viability or because there is a surplus of capacity. It cannot make sense to put money into a project in one part of the country if that will destroy jobs in another part.

When will the Minister be able to make a statement about the regional development boundaries as they apply to the borough of Aberconwy? Previously, I raised with him the question of differentials between the two parts of that borough since the recent changes. Will he now make a statement on the subject?

I have no information to give the hon. Gentleman about the actual boundaries, which, as he knows, relate to travel-to-work areas. We are examining whether, in terms of qualification for European assistance, we can make any measures such as we did in mid-Wales following the last changes.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know that there are only 500 vacancies for 15,500 jobless people in Gwynedd? Is he aware that in Holyhead one man in four is jobless? Will he tell us of any detailed plans that he has to bring work to this stricken county? Does he agree that Bangor, Caernarvon, Pwllheli and Holyhead are black spots by any definition?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are carrying out a major road building project on the A55, which is probably the largest single contribution that can be made to that county. It is one of the largest road building projects in the country. The Gwynedd area has benefited from £200 million since 1979 on major infrastructure programmes. A major factory building programme is still being undertaken by the Welsh Development Agency, there is the urban programme, and European community assistance is also available.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the wholly misleading and insubstantial response, I beg to give notice—

Order. The hon. Members may not say that the response was misleading. He may believe that it is incorrect.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many of the hospitals in Wales which discharge radioactive waste use Amberlite IRA 410 resin to remove radioiodine before discharge.

Information on the usage of Amberlite is not held centrally, but I understand that IRA 410 resin is not generally used in Welsh hospitals.

Does the Minister accept that a clean environment free from artificial radioactivity is desirable and that this is especially so in an area such as Bracelet Bay, in my constituency, which is frequently used for recreation, but which is very close to the discharge of radioactivity from Singleton hospital? Because of the untreated nature of this radioactive waste and the possibility of insufficient mixing, as well as the concentration of that waste in both organic and inorganic materials, will he arrange for a special survey into whether it is possible to have concentrated and shielded protection of this material so that it can decay and so that the radioiodine is reduced by 99 per cent. of its radioactivity before discharge takes place?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want as clean an environment as possible, but I am sure he will accept that we also want as healthy an environment as possible. He surely does not object to the use of radioactive material for medical purposes. That is what happens at Singleton hospital in Swansea. I wrote to the hon. Gentleman on 31 January this year and told him:

"The discharges from Singleton Hospital are within the limits laid down in the current authorisation which was issued in 1979."

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with his Department's involvement in Wintex-Cimex 85; and if he will make a statement.

I am absolutely satisfied that it is rigiht for the Welsh Office to participate in this sort of exercise, although on this occasion the involvement was very small.

Does the Minister accept that this exercise is provocative in terms of its cold-war stance, given that we are pursuing arms control negotiations? Is it not also concerned with internal security, and does not his Department's involvement point to the fact that he has now achieved devolution for Wales by means of departmental civil servants planning for war?

That is the most arrant nonsense that I have heard for a very long time. There is nothing provocative in testing plans and communications systems aimed at coping with some future crisis. What we are doing has been done by successive Governments for many years.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the Wales Tourist Board concerning the role of railway preservation both in job creation and the generation of economic activity; and if he will make a statement.

While I have not recently discussed this matter with the Wales Tourist Board, I am aware that the board has given considerable support to the great little trains of Wales, both by way of marketing services and by financial support to individual railway societies totalling some £500,000 over the years. I welcome the jobs and economic benefit which the railway societies can bring to Wales.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and acknowledge the excellent work that has been done. Does he accept that the transfer of some locomotives from the scrapyard at Barry to the Big Pit project at Blaenavon, which I think has the support of the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Abse), would undoubtedly be welcome and would generate further economic activity in the Blaenavon area by enhancing a tourist project which could no nothing but good? Does he recognise that the problem is the purchase of the old locomotives for which, it seems, neither his Department nor the Wales Tourist Board has specific funds available? Will he bend his mind to this problem?

I am more than sympathetic. I had the great privilege and pleasure of officially opening the Big Pit museum. I know that I can appeal to my hon. Friend when I say that if we are unable to find the funds, I am sure that he, with his expertise in the private sector, will bend his will and mind in an effort to help fully.

In view of the excellent work carried out by the Wales Tourist Board, will the Minister give an assurance that he will try to provide extra financial aid to the board during the next few years?

There have been some advances in the promotion of Wales. I shall always be mindful and do everything that I can to try to find extra funds, if resources are available.

In any such discussions with the Wales Tourist Board, will my hon. Friend consider further experiments with passenger services being introduced on freight lines, as British Rail is doing in a most interesting experiment on the Aberdare to Cardiff line? It introduced shopping services before Christmas and it has provided a similar service for each home international rugby match this year.

I have no direct responsibility for British Rail operational matters in Wales, but I thoroughly approve of such flexibility in experimentation. We still have a long way to go. Some local authorities have put forward very interesting proposals along these lines.

Will the Minister be a little more forthcoming about the provision of Government funds for the purchase of the locomotives to which the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Adley) referred? Does he not know how important it is, in an area of such dereliction as the top part of my valley, Blaenavon, that everything possible should be done to stimulate the tourism which the Big Pit attracts? Would that not provide, for a very small sum, a considerable opportunity to assist in glamourising one of the most beautiful parts of the Eastern valley?

As I said earlier, my sympathies lie entirely with the questioners. However, the question that I was asked by the hon. Gentleman was whether I would be more forthcoming. With respect to the House, Mr. Speaker, the answer is no, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total value of grants which Wales has received from the European regional development fund in each of the past two years and in the current year to date.

Net commitments for the European Commission's financial years of 1983 and 1984 were £45·1 million and £57 million respectively. No allocations have yet been announced for 1985.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Welsh economy would be much weaker if these grants had not been received? How much has Wales received in total from the fund since its inception?

The Welsh economy has been greatly strengthened by the infrastructure provision. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would put down a question on the ERDF commitment for the whole of Wales since its inception. Undoubtedly our membership of the European Community has enabled us to obtain many inward investment projects. I should like to take this opportunity to express my pleasure at the fact that Brother Industries of Japan is the tenth Japanese company to announce its decision to establish a manufacturing plant in this country, this time in Wrexham.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many part-time employees there are in his Department; and what information he has about the numbers in other organisations in Wales for which he is answerable.

On 1 December 1984 there were 121 part-time employees in my Department. Comparable information in respect of other organisations in Wales for which I am answerable is not held centrally.

I can well understand that my right hon. Friend is not in a position to provide any figures, but, as we are unlikely to get back to full industrial employment, is there not now a case for gaining further acceptance of the idea of part-time employment as a preferable alternative to total idleness? Would it not be a good idea for the Government to give a lead in this matter?

While not necessarily accepting my hon. Friend's premise, I can assure him that my Department will give sympathetic consideration to all reasonable requests for part-time work. The Government are consulting the Civil Service unions about the guidance that should be given on the provision of viable schemes — for example, the day-care of the children of civil servants. We are developing along these lines and are sympathetic to the point made by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has received any representations calling upon him to reconsider the decision to allow a licence for the long-term use of the contraceptive drug Depo-Povera in Wales.

I have received representations from the Cardiff Community Health Council and from the Welsh office of the Labour party.

In view of the refusal by the United States Food and Drugs Administration to grant a long-term licence, and the results of the World Health Organisation's survey on the long-term use of Depo-Provera, which seems to show a possible link between the long-term use of that drug and a higher incidence of cervical cancer, will the hon. Gentleman begin the procedure to withdraw the licence granted in April last year for the use of that drug?

Let me make the position clear. My understanding is that the preliminaty findings of the World Health Organisation study show no evidence that using the drug increases the risk of breast cancer. The American public board of inquiry's recommendation to the Food and Drugs Administration not to market Depo-Provera in the United States is being considered by the Food and Drugs Administration and it has not yet decided what action to take on that recommendation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health has asked the Committee on Safety of Medicines to consider the American report. Before granting a licence for the use of Depo-Provera as a long-term contraceptive in Britain, the United Kingdom licensing authority had the benefit of a report on the safety of the product by a panel of experts.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what was the number of clergy receiving remuneration in the Diocese of Durham in each of the last five years.

From 1980, as at 31 December, the number of full-time clergymen was 299, 292, 298, 307 and 307.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not numbers that count, but the quality of leadership, in putting over the message of the Church? Is he aware that there is widespread dismay among lay members of the Church of England at the quality of leadership given by the Bishop of Durham, with his constant espousal of beliefs which are not those of the Christian Church?

It would be helpful if my hon. Friend were to read the remarkable speech by the Archbishop of Canterbury when the subject of doctrine was being debated by the General Synod on 13 February. I shall send him a copy. I must not take up the time of the House quoting from it, but the general message is one of which my hon. Friend would approve.

Is it not a matter for the Church of England, not the House of Commons, how many priests there are in the Durham diocese? Is it not time that the House of Commons stopped messing about with the internal affairs of the Anglican Church? Many of us in the Anglican Church think that it is time we decided our own affairs, without Jews, Methodists, Moslems and all sorts of other people interfering in our internal affairs.

The hon. Gentleman undoubtedly reflects a point of view widely shared in the Church, but at the moment the Church Commissioners are answerable to the House and it is for them only that I answer, although the ingenuity of hon. Members is such that a good deal is often hung on that.

Order. The question is about the diocese of Durham.

In view of the figures that my hon. Friend has given for Durham, is it not clear that at least in the Church of England in Durham there is no rising unemployment? Are the people of Durham getting good benefit from the extra people involved?

I am perfectly certain that in relation to those to whom the answer refers the answer is emphatically yes.

Will the hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the Bishop of Durham served in Leeds before he went to Durham? Last week I asked people there—whether Moslem or anything else—what they thought of the Bishop of Durham and I was told that the chap shows that he cares for the people of Durham and whatever one's political views, that is a good thing for a clergyman.

Yes. I do not want to enter into public comment about a Member of another place, but all hon. Members understand that sometimes the words that we use when we are in a position of authority have to be carefully chosen if they are not to be misinterpreted.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what resources the Church Commissioners have spent towards assisting the unemployed; and if he will make a statement.

The Commissioners make a contribution towards employment in so far as the greater part of their stock exchange investments are in the ordinary shares of United Kingdom companies. They have also taken up opportunities for investment in projects in areas of high unemployment.

I note that contribution, but can my hon. Friend give any examples of schemes to help the unemployed at diocesan and parish level? Will he consider initiating in-service training schemes to improve the theology of some bishops and clergy?

The Church Commissioners are not responsible for in-service or other training of bishops.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, by how much the contributions from parishes have changed in the proportion of the total payments for stipends in the last five years.

The contribution from parishes for clergy stipends rose from 29 per cent. of the total in 1979 to 41 per cent. in 1981 and 44 per cent. in 1984.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the increasing contributions of churchgoers have been principally responsible for the significant increase in stipends in recent years? Is that not the finest possible example of the old adage that charity begins at home?

The contributions of the laity, increasing proportionately in terms of stipends year by year, have been enormously important, but I hope that my hon. Friend has also noticed that the Church Commissioners have been able, by prudent management, to increase their contribution and that they are wholly responsible for all pensions.

As the Commissioners rightly make much of their record in efficiently managing Church funds, which are largely used for stipends, how does the hon. Gentleman justify the Commissioners not selling their land at Molesworth to the highest bidder?

Because the land at Molesworth is not vested in the Church Commissioners. It is vested in the diocese of Peterborough and is not the concern of the Church Commissioners. If the hon. Gentleman would like to know the address to which he should make his representations, I shall happily send it to him.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what was the average clergy stipend within the diocese of Leicester in 1984; and how it compares with other dioceses.

The average incumbent's stipend in July 1984 was £6,565 in the diocese of Leicester and £6,771 nationally. Leicester came 39th out of 43 dioceses.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that stipends do not reflect a living wage and that there are some difficulties with a number of clergy who are having to claim supplementary benefit? Will my hon. Friend go back to the Church Commissioners and encourage them to increase all kinds of stipends so that we have the best people coming forward, rather than some strange people from Durham, for instance?

I do not think that it is possible to generalise about stipends or to say whether a particular man is eligible for supplementary benefit. I should be surprised if that were so in the case of an incumbent. If my hon. Friend has an example, perhaps he will write to me. However, he underlines the continuing desire of the Church, both laity and the Church Commissioners, to improve the stipends of full-time clergy.

Will the hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels), who is concerned about the stipends of local priests, is also concerned about taking people to court? Is not it clear that the hon. Member for Leicester, East would take Jesus Christ to court because he was a revolutionary who tried to change society?

I do not think that I am answerable for whatever my hon. Friend may or may not have said.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that if any priests are claiming supplementary benefit they are committing fraud, as no one is entitled to claim if he is in full-time work? But perhaps the hon. Gentleman will draw attention to the fact that many priests do have to claim family income supplement.

That was in my mind when I gave my earlier answer, so I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. However, he and I must be careful when trying to evaluate the numbers of those who are eligible for family income supplement.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will report progress in the encouragement of private sponsorship of the arts.

Business sponsorship has increased from £500,000 in 1976 to £15 million and is still increasing. I am glad to say that the business sponsorship incentive scheme launched by my noble Friend the Minister is proving extremely popular. Awards made during its first six months will reflect £2·5 million of new sponsorships.

I am grateful for those figures, but does my hon. Friend agree that the recent diatribes of Sir Peter Hall et al—

What did Al say?

He is to be found among others—underline the need for the Government to stay out, as far as possible, from the politics of arts funding? Might not that best be achieved by the Government encouraging, through tax concessions, donations to arts funding?

The Government have made various concessions on the tax side for funding, but it is important to recognise that it is no part of the Government's view that private donations could ever wholly replace the need for subsidy. However, they are a very useful adjunct to it.

What is the total sum of private sponsorship for which the Minister is looking? Will the hon. Gentleman promise that if any theatre raises an especially large amount of money by private funding, it will not be harmed by a cut in grant?

It is not for me or for my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister to answer for Arts Council funding policies. However, I am sure that it is no part of the Arts Council's policy to penalise anybody who raises money from private sources.

Does my hon. Friend agree that neither Sir Peter Hall, nor Al, nor even any fresco would have had quite the problems that we have had in recent years if the Government had taken on board the excellent, unanimous, all-party Select Committee report of 1983?

My hon. Friend will want to remember that the Government have done very well by the arts since 1979, with an increase in funding in real terms of about 18 per cent.

Is it not surprising that Sir Peter Hall should find it surprising that the Arts Council is a political body, given that it is run by two Tories and that the Minister for the Arts worships at the altar of monetarism? Do the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have any proposals in hand for tax concessions for businesses that give money to the arts?

The Arts Council is not a political organisation, much though the hon. Gentleman would like it to be. I think that he would be unwise to predict exactly how Sir William Rees-Mogg votes or has voted. As I have said, the Government have taken various steps to make it easier for companies and individuals to give, and we keep the whole area under review.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will initiate further independent inquiries into the funding and efficiency of arts bodies which are major recipients of public finance.

No, Sir. My noble Friend sees no case for doing so.

Does my hon. Friend agree that if such inquiries took place the facts could be established, and they might be preferable to the wringing of hands and to the chorus of woe, gloom and doom that we hear from the Greek chorus on the subject of arts funding?

I concede that that would be useful. On the other hand, we are rightly constantly pressed to keep the position of the Arts Council at arm's length from the Government. If there were a whole galaxy of separate inquiries, I am not quite sure where the Arts Council would be left.

Does my hon. Friend accept that a particular problem has been caused by the activities of the GLC in threatening to withdraw funding from national companies? Will my hon. Friend give a progress report on the situation? Does he agree that the difficulties and uncertainty which the GLC has created show exactly why it should be abolished?

I agree that the extra uncertainty created by the GLC's brinkmanship is to be regretted. I hope that it will clarify its plans and remove the uncertainty that it has caused.

Does the Minister recall that when the Prime Minister took office she said that there would be no candle end economies in the arts? In view of that statement, the dismay, consternation and frustration expressed in the arts world by such eminent persons as Sir Peter Hall, the fact that seven members of the drama panel of the Arts Council have resigned and that last weekend 11 leading London theatre groups expressed their opposition to the arts cuts, will the Minister now join me and the Opposition in calling for the resignation of the worst Minister for the Arts that we have ever had, the worst chairman of the Arts Council that we have ever had and the worst secretary of the Arts Council that we have ever had before the candle is finally snuffed out for the arts?

That is an example of the type of lobbying which does not help the arts. There has been an 18 per cent. real terms increase in spending on the arts. The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Mr. Callaghan), coming from that area, should show some gratitude for the fact that one of the problems with which the Arts Council is grappling is directing more resources to the provinces and away from London.

Is it not time for an inquiry into the funding and inefficiency of the Arts Council, as it has completely lost the confidence of the art world and is widely regarded as a subservient arm of the Government?

It is widely regarded in that way by people who want to cause mischief. I am sure that the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Sedgemore) wants a politicised Arts Council. The Arts Council is wholly at arm's length from the Government, and that is how it should be.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the anxiety in outer London about the transfer of music, choral and orchestral societies' funding to the Greater London Arts Association from the Arts Council, which, it is feared, will be to the detriment of outer London? Will he look into that?

I was not aware of that until my hon. Friend drew it to my attention. I shall ensure that the chairmen of the Arts Council and of the GLAA are made aware of those worries, which are important.

Is not the truth that the arts have been grossly under-funded this year, with less than half of the inflation rate being accounted for? Not only the National Theatre, but almost every theatre in Britain is affected. Is that not the reason why the directors of almost every theatre in Britain will be meeting tomorrow to give their views on the crisis? Will the Minister tell the Minister for the Arts that if he cuts the Arts Council's funds he should at least persuade the Government not to cut back local authorities' funds? Is he aware that the GLC alone has intervened to save the National Theatre? What a disgrace for a Conservative Government.

There has been a large real terms increase in funding since this Government were elected. I thought that the chairman of the Arts Council came out much the better in the interchange in the Sunday papers.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will make a statement on the Government's policy for preventing the loss to the nation of important and irreplaceable elements of the national heritage.

As the House will be aware, the Government announced on 21 February their intention to add £25 million this financial year to the National Heritage Memorial Fund. This is a major practical demonstration of our concern for the national heritage.

I offer my warmest congratulations to the Government on the reprieve of Keddlestone Hall, Weston Park, and Nostell Priory. Will my hon. Friend now turn his attention to equally good effect to future provision for the acceptance of pre-eminent items in lieu of capital transfer tax? Will he and his noble Friend make strenuous representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer so that, in the event of the Chancellor finding it impossible to abolish the tax altogether on 19 March, future provision for acceptances in lieu will at least be at a worthwhile level rather than at the derisory level intended?

I shall draw those remarks to the attention of my noble Friend. In the current year, the AIL provisions have brought some attractive gains to the country, such as works by Sir Jacob Epstein, Renoir, Barbara Hepworth and others. Many less spectacular but useful items have also been accepted.

Does the Minister agree that the Cottesloe theatre is an important part of the national heritage? Will he congratulate the GLC on having the guts to fight for it?

We should all be happy if the GLC were able to find the money while meeting its legal obligations to set a rate. That would be useful.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will make a statement on developments concerning the power of museums to charge for entry.

The Government's policy is not to impose general admission charges for the main collections of the national museums and galleries. It is a matter for the trustees' discretion. There is already a well-established practice of charging for entry to some museums, outstations and special exhibitions.

Do the Government believe in incentives? If so, may we be assured that if museums raise funds off their own bat, they will not be clobbered by the Treasury, which, amazingly, seems to want to reduce their grants by the very amounts of money that they have raised by using their initiative?

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Discussions on the matter continue. We have had an arrangement in the first year at the Greenwich museum, whereby that has been the outcome.