asked the Secretary of State for Transport how many major investment applications by British Rail he has approved over the past year.

Since 2 December last year we have approved seven major investment applications worth £272 million in all.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on that impressive record, which clearly gives the lie to Opposition parties who suggest that we are not investing in the infrastructure. Has my right hon. Friend refused any applications during the period under consideration?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those remarks and I agree that British Rail is going through a high-level investment period, with beneficial results. I have not refused any schemes that BR has put forward, but two schemes—the Bournemouth-Weymouth electrification and the Stansted airport rail link—are still under consideration.

Will the Secretary of State tell the work force and management of British Rail Engineering Ltd. how they can sensibly plan to fall in line with these investment decisions when they can beat the competition hollow yet still see that competition win the contracts that BREL should have?

The winner of any competitive bid is decided by British Rail, and the hon. Lady should address her inquiries to BR. I do not see any harm in keen competition developing to supply the railways. It means that we shall get better and cheaper stock.

While perhaps sharing with the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) the view that the railways face unfair criticism in terms of safety and in some other respects, is it not a fact that my right hon. Friend's record on rail investment is impeccable? Indeed, is it not a fact that that record is the best of any Government for the past 20 years? Will he continue to keep me happy by giving an early yes to British Rail about the Dorset electrification to which he referred?

I hope that my hon. Friend will feel that my record is impeccable on all transport matters. I am delighted to accept that the Government have endorsed a high level of investment in BR. I shall not be able to give my hon. Friend an answer about Bournemouth-Weymouth until the studies have been completed.

While I am in agreement with and welcome the electrification of the east coast main line, does the Secretary of State appreciate the widespread concern in Bradford about the refusal so far to electrify the line between Bradford and Leeds? Will he consider meeting representatives of Bradford city council on the matter? Will he read the report recently published by the city council and British Rail and sympathetically consider the proposal? Is he aware that if it does not proceed the efforts of the city to overcome the unemployment and economic crises facing it will be that much harder?

The hon. Gentleman knows that either I or another Minister will always meet hon. Members who wish to see us. Investment in the railways is decided not by political pressure but by whether the investment makes good sense in terms of the return that is likely from it.

Will my right hon. Friend explain why this investment has meant the inevitable closure of the Swindon railway works in my constituency—[Interruption.] For the benefit of Opposition Members who still fail to understand the point, will he confirm that even if all the investment to which he referred had been awarded in the form of contracts to BREL, it would still not have made any difference to the Swindon works?

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that there are growing signs that British Rail Engineering Limited is likely to begin obtaining substantial orders overseas. It has already obtained some. I think that there is still much business to be hoped for. It should be able to compete for and win orders in world markets as well as in domestic markets. A high level of investment in British Rail has the effect of reducing the need for maintenance and repair, because the new stock is better built, lasts longer and requires less maintenance. Indeed, that is why some of BREL's workshops have had to be slimmed down or closed. The higher the level of investment in the railways, the more that has tended to happen.

Will the Secretary of State accept that the recently announced British Rail fare increase of between 8 and 10 per cent. is higher than the rate of inflation, that the workers at Swindon and York could well be employed in building rolling stock for BREL and thereby improve the quality of cross-country rail travel, and that, instead of listening to some of his Back Benchers, who are more anxious to curry favour than to defend the interests of their constituents, he should talk to regular passengers, who are fed up to the teeth with paying higher fares for a declining service?

I do not quite know what the hon. Gentleman can mean by that, since BREL has already won orders to build 170 DMUs and 184 EMUs, and the amount of work at York is certain to keep the staff occupied for at least two years.

Is my right hon. Friend able to say how much of the £272 million is being spent on rolling stock, particularly passenger rolling stock? Could he also say how much of that investment is likely to find itself on the London Midland region?

In reply to my hon. Friend's first question, in the past 18 months, £590 million has been spent by British Rail on investment. Nearly half, £272 million, was devoted to passenger rolling stock. I cannot give details of stock to be used on the line that my hon. Friend mentioned, but I will ask the chairman to give my hon. Friend the information that he seeks.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if, when he next meets the chairman of British Rail, he will raise with him the subject of British Rail catering.

No, Sir. Railway catering is a matter of management for the British Railways Board.

If the Minister finds an opportunity to meet the chairman and to discuss catering, will he pass on my praise for the courteous and caring way in which British Rail catering staff serve the public, often in difficult circumstances, when they have to solve problems that are not of their creation?

I am delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman's praise for British Rail catering staff. I shall pass on his comments to the chairman. From my experience, in many cases praise is very well deserved.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, despite the admitted courtesy and helpfulness of the staff, the standard of catering on British Rail seems to be going steadily downhill? Is this not an area in which privatisation should be encouraged as quickly as possible?

I assure my hon. Friend that we have asked the chairman of British Rail to obtain more supply and support services from the private sector, including train and station catering.

The last time I was in north Wales the catering was supplied by private caterers who joined the train at Chester. While I agree that the catering has greatly improved, it would be a joy if travellers on British Rail, who are paying huge fares, could get into clean carriages from which all the rubbish, cups and saucers had been removed.

I travel regularly on British Rail, and I am pleased at the speed with which the staff come in with bags to remove rubbish when the trains arrive at terminus stations. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has had an experience that has not given satisfaction. Other people have praised the private catering services provided on the Welsh line, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to that. I shall pass that comment on to the chairman, as it may encourage British Rail to introduce more private operations.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received following publication of the Arthur Anderson report on light dues.

I have received a large number of comments from individuals and from representative bodies. I am most grateful to all concerned for the thought and attention that they have given to the proposals. I am considering the issues carefully and I shall make a further statement in due course.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the cost of collecting light dues from sea-going yachts will probably be greater than the revenue raised? Does he know of any EEC country that charges such dues and, if not, will Britain be the odd man out? How will my right hon. Friend overcome the difficulty of defining a sea-going yacht?

The cost of administering and enforcing any charge on yachts will depend largely on what measures the Government decide to take. I have not reached any conclusions on that. I appreciate the problem of the definition of a sea-going yacht, but, again, I have not reached any conclusion. I can tell my hon. Friend, however, that the Republic of Ireland and Greece both charge light dues on shipping.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if, when he next meets the chairman of British Rail, he will raise the provision of fast non-stop services between the cities of Great Britain.

The pattern of services on the inter-city rail network is a matter for the British Railways Board.

Does the Minister agree that the level of services on Inter-city provided by British Rail is appallingly low? On the west coast main line, on which I have been travelling for the whole of the year, I cannot remember one occasion when everything was right; for example, the train was late, the engine failed, the train was overcrowded so that there was standing room only, or there was no restaurant service. Does the Minister accept that that is a matter which goes beyond the day-to-day control of normal Inter-city services provided by the management? What will the Minister do about it?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman's experiences have been much less satisfactory than my own. The matters that he raises are for the chairman of British Rail, to whom we have given objectives to provide an efficient railway service that is reliable, attractive and punctual.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the British public are increasingly fed up with the exceedingly nasty apple pies served on these trains? Will he do what he can to privatise the services and get rid of the current monopoly?

I have said already that we are inviting British Rail to obtain more of its services from the private sector. Twice in the past week when I have travelled by British Rail the buffet car has closed one hour before arrival at our destination, so I share the hon. Gentleman's sense of unease and am aware of the advantages to be obtained from private sector operations.

I should like to reiterate the complaints made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) about the St. Pancras line. I am often asked by the Minster why I continually complain. It is because he does nothing about it. The reality is that although the individual train is faster, there are fewer of them, fewer carriages, they are regularly overcrowded, and from Sheffield the train often stops at Chesterfield, Alfreton, Nottingham, Leicester, Kettering, Luton and then London. That adds half an hour to the journey, which is added throughout the day. The trains are slower than they used to be when they ran hourly.

Those are entirely matters for the management of British Rail. It is the job of Ministers to set objectives for the board. It is for the board to carry them out. If the hon. Gentleman has complaints about the way in which the board is carrying them out, he should address them to the chairman.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans to modify current driving test standards; and if he will make a statement.

There are no such plans at present.

Is my hon. Friend aware that anyone can take a set of driving lessons, pass the driving test without ever having been allowed to drive on a motorway, and thereafter get into the fastest car, go as fast as possible, tow a caravan or a horse box with a couple of horses in it and create mayhem, at night and in the dark? Is it not time that the Ministry took on board the need for training those who will travel on motorways and the need to make motorway driving an integral part of the driving test so that we can lower the carnage on our roads?

The problem with allowing L-drivers on motorways in preparation for a test, as my hon. Friend suggests, is that it would increase the hazard to the other drivers already using the motorways, who are in the majority.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some motoring schools appear to be giving the impression that they can get a driving test arranged at an earlier date than would normally be the case for a private individual applying for a test? Is that true either for the first allocation of a date for cancellations?

I am not aware of the point mentioned by my right hon. Friend, but perhaps he will let me have the details afterwards. I am aware that the waiting lists have increased unacceptably. Our priority is therefore to employ additional examiners to reduce the waiting lists.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport how many residents of Basildon took a driving test in each of the last five years.

I regret that records of driving test applicants are not kept by their places of residence, and therefore that information is not available.

In view of the very large number of my constituents taking driving tests and the considerable distances that they have to travel to the nearest test centres, does my hon. Friend understand my constituents' desire to have their own driving test centre in Basildon, now the most dynamic town in the south of England?

I understand that my hon. Friend has been assiduous in making that case on behalf of his constituents, but driving test centres are carefully selected to ensure that test routes around them are not too easy, and we feel that driving conditions in Basildon are not sufficiently difficult. As my hon. Friend knows, there are four centres within 13 miles of Basildon.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will consider installing closed circuit television cover in fog prone sections of motorways, linked to more prominent warning signals.

I have no plans to extend television surveillance to deal specifically with fog-prone locations.

Does the Secretary of State agree that there have been some tragic accidents in fog on our motorways in the past month or two, including one in the last couple of weeks? It is not time to experiment with more sophisticated closed circuit television systems, which I believe are available, or fog-sensing devices?

I do not think that television is the answer because television cannot see fog in the dark for a start, and that seems to be a fundamental defect. I would even go so far as to say that the motorist is more likely to see the fog than are television cameras. However, we are installing experimental fog detectors. Some have been installed on the Mole valley section of the M25 to see whether they can detect fog in all conditions to alert the police, so that they can illuminate the speed restriction signs.

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to look further at the installation of closed circuit television and advance warning signs, not just to combat fog but to control the increasingly dense traffic flows on the southern part of the M1, where the present signalling system is wholly inadequate?

When high traffic flows result in regular congestion or queues, and where we have complex motorway interchanges, we instal closed circuit televison. That is the right use of it, not for fog.

In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell), who tabled a question about speed limits, is the Secretary of State aware that one of the great problems on our motorways is people who drive at excessive speeds in fog? Is he aware, further, that on Saturday I was on the M1 between Leeds and Sheffield and that some drivers passed me exceeding 70 mph, without lights? Would it have been in order for me to take their numbers and report them to the police?

I have never before been asked a technical and legal question as a Front Bench supplementary question to a question which has not been asked because the hon. Member who tabled it was not present. I agree strongly with the hon. Gentleman that the real problem on our motorways, and our roads in general, is that people drive too fast for the prevailing conditions. There is no subsitute for impressing on people the need for a higher standard of driving, which includes controlling their speed, not just to the limit, but to the conditions. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would be able to substantiate as evidence numbers which he took down while driving at 70 mph down a motorway last Saturday afternoon.

Perhaps I could help my right hon. Friend. Does he agree that the answer to the problem lies not in new technology but in cracking down hard on the murderous maniacs who drive too fast in fog without proper warning lights? Will he encourage the police to prosecute on all occasions when they come across such dangerous lunacy on the motorways?

I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that enforcement by the police of the speed limit and driving laws is entirely a matter for them. However, I agree strongly that we would have a better safety record and fewer crashes on our motorways and roads if people drove more carefully and considerately.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will give details of the progress made in the feasibility study about the proposal to construct a second Severn crossing.

The consultants are continuing their examination of the details of the various options for a second crossing in two corridors south of the existing crossing. They are determining optimum locations for a bridge, a driven tunnel and an immersed tube tunnel, and their links with the motorway network. They are also carrying out engineering, environmental, traffic and economic assessments. They have made good progress, and expect to complete their studies by the target date of August 1986.

Will the Minister say whether he has any plans to authorise the building of a second Severn crossing with private capital? If so, by how much would the tolls be likely to increase, and for how long would they be operated?

No decision has yet been taken to build a second crossing, so the second point does not arise. However, if we proceed with a second crossing, we shall certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's point.

Does my hon. Friend accept that that answer will cause some alarm in south Wales? There should be an undertaking to build a second crossing before the turn of the century. Why are the consultants not considering the Wimpey proposal for a barrage, with associated power generation?

The barrage is a separate matter. Any decision about when and whether to build an additional crossing of the Severn will be taken in the light of studies which are being made of traffic forecasts, and of the necessity to strengthen the existing crossing.

Is the Minister aware that if what independent forecasters tell us about likely congestion is correct, the decision will have to be made shortly after the date of publication of the report in the autumn? May I take it that the report will be made available to the House when it is published?

That is a different question. Perhaps I may write to the hon. Gentleman about it.

In view of the continuing tailbacks on the Severn bridge— sometimes of several miles—and the fact that industrialists in Wales have said that this is affecting the Welsh economy, will the Minister consider abolishing the tolls?

There are no plans at present to abolish the tolls on that estuarial crossing.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport, out of the allocation for the national road programme in the autumn statement, how much will be spent on lighting on motorways in 1986–87 and 1987–88, respectively.

For 1986–87 the allocation of resources between the various elements of the national road programme has yet to be finalised. Details will be published in the Supply Estimates. Future years' expenditure on lighting will be determined taking account of the available resources and competing priorities.

As joint chairman of the British parliamentary lighting group, I recognise that there is to be a review of motorway lighting, but does my right hon. Friend agree that having only 376 miles of motorway lit is not exactly good news, given that 1,300 miles are still unlit? Will he take note of the views of the Select Committee on Transport which said that lighting unlit stretches of our motorways would reduce night time accidents by 60 per cent.? Is that not the way forward?

No one doubts my hon. Friend's credentials and his commitment to or extreme concern about motorway lighting. However, I am sure he will agree that we must have some form of cost benefit analysis to decide which stretches of road should be lit and which should not. There cannot just be a policy to light the whole of the motorway network. It must be done on a value for money basis, as is done in respect of other improvements to the road network in order to achieve road safety or to avoid congestion.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that from a road safety aspect alone the lighting of the complete motorway system is highly desirable and ought to be provided for?

No, I do not agree, because there are many other ways in which we can spend money to improve road safety, including the straightening of dangerous bends and junctions. One must make a value for money judgment about the best way to spend the available money, and that does not always mean the provision of lighting.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what new opportunities his Department has created for the development of new small businesses.

The Transport Act 1985 has opened up the market for local bus services. British Rail has opened its supply and support services to competition from the private sector, and new business opportunities will be available to taxi operators.

I thank my hon. Friend for his informative reply. Will his Department publish the opportunities for bus and taxi companies and where those opportunities will be available? On behalf of small businesses and myself, I thank the Department for the steps that have been taken to improve access on the All up to Norwich.

I assure my hon. Friend that a series of leaflets will be issued to explain the new Act and the opportunities that it provides. The Department's traffic area officers will advise on how to apply for an operator's licence and how to register a local service. There will be an opportunity up to February for anyone to register a new bus service, and from about April onwards there will be opportunities for tendering for revenue supported operations from county and district councils.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received for local authorities concerning his proposal that local authority airports should become Companies Act companies.

I have had discussions with representatives of a number of local authority airports and with the Joint Airports Committee of Local Authorities and Aerodrome Owners Association. Both these bodies have also been invited to submit written comments.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he accept that when approving future airport companies—for example, in Norwich—it is vital that they should be responsive to small businesses and business generally in the area and that they should be free from any undue political interference?

I confirm that under our present proposals Norwich airport will become a public limited company. I also confirm what my hon. Friend said. Our objective in turning airports, such as Norwich, into public limited companies is that they should be insulated from political interference and, as far as possible, operate as commercial undertakings.

Is it correct that Manchester international airport would be prepared to change to a public limited company subject to the board of directors' continuing to consist entirely of Manchester city councillors? If so, will my hon. Friend confirm that that does not conform with the idea laid down by the Government?

I confirm that Manchester city has suggested how it might turn the airport into a public limited company. I also confirm that we are dissatisfied with a number of aspects of those proposals; in particular, those which try further to link the city with the airport.

That matter must be seen in the general context of the Government's ideological views on privatisation. Can the Minister tell us of other comparable countries where the major airports are in private hands?

There is no question but that this is a pace-setting venture, which is one reason why so many other countries are full of admiration for what the Government are doing.

Has my hon. Friend read the comments made by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster this weekend about Manchester city council? Can we rely upon my hon. Friend to ensure that the management of Manchester international airport, the region's most important asset, never falls into the hands of Manchester city council?

The Government have no proposals to compel the privatisation of Manchester airport, but they are determined to set up a public limited company which will operate commercially and not be subject to political interference by the city.

Does the Minister accept that the proposal currently being considered by his Department is to set up a public limited company owned jointly by the Manchester city council and the passenger transport executive, not one owned wholly by the city council? What representations have been received from airlines, airport users or passengers in Manchester complaining about the present position or the city council's proposals? Why is it necessary to deprive locally elected councillors, of any party, of a say in the future running of an airport into which public money has been ploughed over the years and which has been a credit to municipal enterprise?

The Government's intention has been clearly set out. The local authorities have a choice as to whether they set up joint boards comprised of the districts or a passenger transport authority-based system. It is for the local authorities to decide. The Government say that that decision— which, in the case of Manchester, has been delayed—must be made quickly. If the decision is not made within the foreseeable future—that must mean by the end of this year—the Government will have to insist on a passenger transport authority-based system.

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he last met representatives of the passenger transport executives to discuss the current and prospective level of Government grant for local transport.

Rate support grant for the metropolitan counties and for the passenger transport authorities that will succeed them will depend on their grant-related expenditure assessments and on their actual expenditure. For the first three years, the new PTAs will be constrained by precept control under the Rates Act 1984, and I am currently considering the authorities' applications for redetermination of their expenditure levels. Other grants are available for public transport capital projects under section 56 of the Transport Act 1968.

Is the Minister aware that there is considerable concern in Greater Manchester that both the quality and the quantity of bus services will deteriorate as a result of cuts in the grants available to passenger transport executives and the effect of the Transport Act 1985? What specific guarantees can he give that that will not happen? What guarantees can he also give that the light rapid transport system will be allowed to go into operation?

We are waiting to see and consider all aspects of the light rapid transport system to ascertain whether it represents an economical and sensible use of resources.

asked the Attorney-General, in the light of the findings of the disciplinary committee at Lloyd's in the Peter Cameron Webb syndicate case, what steps are being taken to prosecute those involved.

A strong fraud investigation group is vigorously engaged in seeking the required evidence, but any criminal prosecution must be founded on evidence that is both available and admissible in criminal proceedings in this country. Serious delay has been imposed by the location of certain evidence in a foreign jurisdiction. I hope that that difficulty can be overcome.

Is the Solicitor-General aware that at least two of my constituents have lost, or are likely to lose, as much as £200,000 due to the activities of Mr. Peter Cameron Webb and his associates? If it is possible for Lloyd's disciplinary committee to adjudicate on those people and to impose substantial fines and penalties, why is it not possible for the hon. and learned Gentleman's Department and the Director of Public Prosecutions to bring the guilty people before the courts?

I naturally sympathise with all who have lost as a result of the transactions with which the investigations are concerned, but in order to bring proceedings to a successful conclusion in the criminal jurisdiction of this country evidence must be available not only in a form that is admissible in those proceedings but from witnesses who are prepared to attend. That is the distinction.

In view of its success in this and other cases, is my hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the fraud investigation group has sufficient funds to continue its good work in these respects?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his concern. When the group was set up, it was resourced on a basis sufficient for its expected work load. Those resources are now seriously stretched and are under review.

Whether the fraud investigation squad is big enough and has the right resources is an important question, but can the Solicitor-General assure the House that Lloyd's is co-operating with the investigation group?

Lloyd's is governed by its own legislation in the form of byelaws. The Director of Public Prosecutions is in renewed discussion with Lloyd's as to ways in which Lloyd's can make available transcripts of its disciplinary proceedings without infringing its obligations under its own legislation. The fact that the Police and Criminal Evidence Act comes into force in its material particulars on 1 January next year may well be helpful.

In view of the significant answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook), will my hon. and learned Friend now reassure the House, as is logical in the light of what he has said, that the staff of this vital department will be increased to deal adequately with the growing number of fraud cases?

My hon. Friend will know that the issue of resources does not rest exclusively with me. With his long experience in the House, he will appreciate where my hopes lie from the answer that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook).

Was the Solicitor-General implying in his answer to the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) that the Lloyd's byelaws somehow impinge upon the obligation of Lloyd's to disclose information that might be relevant to the commission of a criminal offence? If so, does he accept that that is a powerful reinforcement of the argument that Lloyd's cannot be allowed to remain in that position for much longer?

I do not think that the conclusion to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is justified by the premise. As I understand it, there are difficulties about the power of Lloyd's to make available a transcript in circumstances in which criminal proceedings are not on foot. The hon. Gentleman will recall that the Director of Public Prosecutions may wish to see transcripts as an aid to his investigation, but he cannot as yet say that proceedings are on foot.

Has my hon. and learned Friend heard the proposition that even if there is a marginal risk that a prosecution might not succeed, it is sometimes considered to be of sufficient importance to justify some risk being taken?

The DPP's critics are extremely versatile. The Director is criticised when a prosecution ends in an acquittal, on the basis that the evidence could never have been sufficient. He is also criticised for not venturing prosecutions, even though there is a less than 50 per cent. chance of conviction. The guidelines laid down by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, a copy of which is deposited in the Library, make it clear that there should be a better than 50 per cent. chance. I believe that that is in the interests of justice.

The Solicitor-General must be aware that 324 serious frauds were reported in the United Kingdom in 1983 and that only 37 led to prosecutions. Does he accept that the allocation of only 16 senior legal assistants to the new fraud investigation group in the Crown Prosecution Service to cover the entire United Kingdom is totally inadequate and will give the general public the impression that the only Act under which fraud will be prosecuted is the old pals' act?

I think that the hon. Gentleman's joke deserved a better laugh than it received. There were 26 persons awaiting trial on indictment in November 1984 and there are 77 now. The principal assistant director drew attention to that in The Times last Saturday. That shows sufficiently the Director's determination to prosecute fraud whenever sufficient admissible evidence is available. It shows also that, with the resources presently available to him, he has been getting on with the job. As to whether he needs more resources, I have said to the House what I want to say.

asked the Attorney-General whether he has yet had any discussions with his counterpart in the Eire Government since the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the two Governments have expressed the intention to intensify action against terrorism, which will be, and is, widely welcomed by sane, normal people, certainly in England, Scotland and Wales? Will he take a message from the House, and from most of our constituents, that he and his counterpart in the Government of the Irish Republic have our warm good wishes for success in their stated objectives?

I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said. I believe that reassurance on the agreement between the two Governments will grow as its terms become more widely understood.

Is the Solicitor-General aware that his opposite number has publicly stated that the implications of the agreement go far beyond consultation? Does he agree with that?

My answer is no to both parts of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The agreement is perfectly explicit. I believe that all concerned—I am certain that this applies to the Attorney-General for the Republic of Ireland—are capable of interpreting and construing both its meaning and effect.

asked the Attorney-General if he will make a statement regarding the establishment of the new Crown Prosecution Service.

Good progress has been made towards the establishment of the service in all areas, but especially in the six metropolitan counties and in the counties of Durham and Northumberland, where it will become operational on 1 April 1986. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made the necessary commencement order in respect of those areas last week, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has made the regulations under which the transfer of staff to the new service will be effected. Elsewhere, chief Crown prosecutors have been designated for 24 out of 25 areas, and they are actively planning the structure of the service in those areas.

The Solicitor-General will recall that at Question Time on 1 July 1985, the Attorney-General assured me that it was the Government's intention that it should be a

"properly remunerated service which will attract talented people and offer a good career structure."—[Official Report, 1 July 1985; Vol. 82, c. 13.]

I have always said to the House—and it has been the consistent view of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General—that we must offer such terms and conditions as will attract, retain and motivate people of the necessary high quality. Equally, we must ensure that the taxpayer is not presented with a tax bill that is higher than necessary. We had some experience of that with previous reorganisations. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I was recently able to offer improved terms. We have reached the point at which those two objectives can be achieved.

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware of the threat to the integrity of the dual profession system that is posed by the Crown Prosecution Service, which will inevitably try to press the frontiers of rights of audience further than has hitherto been acceptable? Will my hon. and learned Friend give an undertaking that the Government will resist these pressures?

The Government's position has been expressed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in accepting the advice of the Benson Royal Commission that the professions should continue to have divided functions. That remains the position of the Government, and I see no danger of the sort to which my hon. and learned Friend referred. It is in the public interest, which is the only criterion that counts, that matters should remain as they are.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the South African Development Corporation conference in the light of the political situation in South Africa.

We give our support to this organisation, especially to its work in improving regional economic links. We have already pledged £12 million towards such projects. I plan to attend the next SADCC meeting wih donors, which takes place in Zimbabwe in January.

We are delighted to hear that the Minister will be at the Zimbabwe meeting. Presumably he is aware that SADCC estimates costs of at least £1,000 million from the destabilisation in the front-line states caused by South Africa. Can he assure the House that there will be a significant net increase in the United Kingdom's contribution to SADCC over and above what he has said? Does he dissociate himself from the Prime Minister's remarks, before she went to Nassau, that the front-line states could not expect any increased aid in the event of biting sanctions taking effect?

I am considering the possibility of further assistance and whether I can announce anything of that sort at the SADCC meeting. However, there is no doubt that sanctions would bite heavily on many SADCC member countries, and one would have to think hard before coming to the view that that was a good thing.

Does the Department or the Commonwealth have any contingency plans to deal with such an occurrence?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what has been the cost of the Royal Air Force's contribution in distributing emergency aid in Ethiopia; and if he will make a statement about its future role in such situations.

As I announced last week, the British airlift, which has made such a magnificent contribution to relief operations in Ethiopia since November 1984, will be discontinued in the latter part of December. I expect the cost to have been about £21 million by the time the operation ends. The services have also made a valuable contribution to the recent relief operations in Mexico and Columbia. I am sure that the Ministry of Defence will continue to do all it can in the future.

I applaud the initiative taken by the Government. Has my right hon. Friend estimated the number of lives that the airlift has saved? Will he confirm that the airlift is being withdrawn because there are sufficient lorries available for the distribution of food, and that roads that were impassable are again capable of use?

My hon. Friend has stated the reasons for withdrawing the airlift. I cannot give a realistic figure for the number of lives that have been saved, but about 31,000 tonnes of food aid have been airlifted over the past year, and the Royal Air Force has flown on average 10 hours every day since November 1984—a remarkable performance.

I add my congratulations to the RAF on its magnificent achievement. In view of the terrible happenings in Colombia and Mexico, is there not a case for this relief work to be put on a more permanent basis, if only in reserve?

If the hon. Gentleman reflects, he might feel that that is wrong. The valuable part of our contribution in Latin America has been the fact that we have been able to draw on the forces in Belize to operate rapidly. We could not possibly have forces dotted across the world for such a purpose.

I add my congratulations to the RAF, which has set such a fine example to all people in assisting those in dire need and famine conditions. In future, does my right hon. Friend intend to use more charter aircraft, in particular, to help Sudanese famine victims, where we also contributed Hercules transport planes for use as a bridge from east to west Sudan?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his tribute to the RAF, which the House shares. Army air dispatchers have also played a valuable part in the airdrop operations in Ethiopia. It is true that we have used charter aircraft in the Sudan. It is our job to judge what is best and most suited to any emergency that may arise.

Before the Minister made his decision to withdraw this excellent assistance, did he manage to have any discussions with the Ethiopian Government to assure himself that the most remote areas, which have received assistance by this route, will continue to get grain? Contrary to what the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman) said, some areas on the higher plateaux cannot be reached by road.

I saw the head of the Ethiopian relief and rehabilitation commission, Major Dawit, and he told me that he had no complaint about our decision. There are and always will be remote areas, but I am satisfied that our decision is right and humane.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government plan to make a further contribution to the International Fund for Agricultural Development; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the present United Kingdom contribution to the International Fund for Agricultural Development; and if he intends to increase this.

We have so far contributed £30.9 million to IFAD. Negotiations in respect of the next replenishment, to cover the years 1985 to 1987, are still not completed. If and when that replenishment is agreed, the Government plan to contribute to it the same percentage of the OECD share as we contributed to the first replenishment.

That answer is welcome to many of us. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Third world countries want help in developing agriculture? Will he try to ensure that, as a proportion of our total aid, our contribution to this fund is increased in future years?

I agree that the development of agriculture is a high priority throughout the Third world. IFAD does a good job, but I remind my hon. Friend that the more we put into multilateral agencies such as this, the less is available for our own bilateral programme, which also does a good job, and which, unlike IFAD, is overwhelmingly targeted on poor countries and on giving grants rather than loans.

In view of the rapid population growth in many parts of Africa, should we not both multilaterally and bilaterally give much greater priority to resources for raising domestic food production? Should that not be a top priority in all our programmes?

Yes, I agree that the raising of domestic food production in these African countries is one of the principal targets of my Department and also of the European Community.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has any plans for the expansion of those scientific units of his Department whose work concerns the prevention of famine.

I have no present plans for their expansion.

If, as the Minister has just said to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Deakins), increasing food production is one of the principal targets of Her Majesty's Government, why have they cut research services at the Tropical Development and Research Institute and the Land Resources Development Centre? Is he aware that the latter has had to turn down applications for work on preventing famine? Would not one tenth, or even one twentieth, of the sum properly spent on the RAF work in Ethiopia transform the work of these departments and restore the Government's cuts?

There have been cuts in our scientific units, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, but they are still capable of doing an extremely valuable job. They have never been able to take on all the work that they have been asked to do. Obviously there are limitations on their resources. However, I assure the House that we value them highly, and their work is a valuable complement to the emergency relief work that we do.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is satisfied that his Department is able to respond rapidly with relief aid to disasters.

Experience in Africa, Mexico, Colombia and elsewhere has shown that my Department, and in particular our disaster unit, is well able to respond rapidly and effectively.

May we have an assurance that that also applies to the EC, because liaison is often necessary?

The EC does not have a disaster unit as such. On the other hand it has, with a good deal of prodding from ourselves, very much strengthened its ability to provide emergency relief over the past year.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) was not present when his question was called and we went on to the next question. The Opposition spokesman was then allowed to refer to that question—

Order. I know, and I should not have allowed it.