asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the infant mortality rate in 1979 in (a) West Glamorgan and (b) Wales; and what are the corresponding figures for the latest available year.

The infant mortality rate for West Glamorgan was 14·3 per thousand live births in 1979 and the corresponding rate for Wales was 12·4 per thousand live births. By 1984, the latest year for which this information is available, these rates had fallen to 6·1 and 8·8 respectively.

Why is a new perinatal intensive care unit not recognised by the Secretary of State for Wales as a need for Wales, whereas it is accepted as a need for all the English regions? The perinatal mortality rate in Wales is higher than that in England. Therefore, why is the Secretary of State content that mothers of babies in Wales should have a worse deal than mothers in England?

The pattern of existing maternity and neo-natal services is being given a detailed examination under the perinatal mortality initiative announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and we shall be considering the survey group's recommendations later in the year.

The figures that my hon. Friend has given are encouraging. What is the status of the perinatal mortality initiative undertaken by the Welsh Office?

Under the initiative, a catalyst team is compiling an up-to-date assessment of existing maternity and neonatal services, stimulating clinical reviews of perinatal deaths and encouraging health authorities to set up active maternity service liaison committees. In addition, the expert survey group appointed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is preparing an, all-Wales perinatal mortality survey, and that will form part of the group's report to the Department this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many National Health Service hospitals in Wales there were in 1978; and how many there are now.

There were 178 NHS hospitals in Wales at 31 December 1978 and 164 now.

Are there not now fewer staffed hospital beds in Wales than at any time since the inception of the NHS? What is the Minister going to do about it?

The hon. Gentleman should remember that we have been through one of the biggest hospital building programmes in the history of the Principality. As regards the drop in the numbers of beds, over 1,000 can be attributed to our mental health initiative to get people back into the community. Under that initiative there has been a reduction of nearly 1,000 in the number of beds available to mental health, compared with 1,329 overall.

How many community hospitals have been opened in Clwyd since 1979?

I shall write to my hon. Friend and give him that figure.

What proposals does the Minister have for the provision of more consultant beds in hospitals in rural Wales?

We feel that the figures for consultant beds are satisfactory.

Does my hon. Friend agree that just as important as the quantity of hospitals is their quality and the level of facilities and standard of care that they are able to provide? Is he aware of the widespread appreciation in Delyn of the fact that the Government have made available the necessary financial resources to transform three out of our four community hospitals, the new one at Mold being nationally recognised as a model for future community hospital developments?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point that out. I am sure he will be pleased to note that under this Government the reduction in the number of beds is less than it was in a similar period under the Labour Government.

Does the Minister appreciate that doctors, nurses and ancillary staff are up in arms about the administrative changes that have followed the implementation of the Griffiths report? Does he appreciate that they feel that their professionalism is being undermined and often completely disregarded? As one constituent put it to me, it is a matter of life or death versus financial restrictions. How does the Minister reconcile that with the Prime Minister's famous statement that the National Health Service is safe in her hands?

Many more patients are now being treated in Wales than was the case when this Government came to office. Part and parcel of the campaign by the Royal College of Nursing is that it feels that it is not being included in the reorganisation proposals. Last week I visited south Glamorgan, where it was pointed out to me that one of the appointments that had been made had come from the nursing profession.

It is all very well for the Under-Secretary of State to say that the new district general hospitals have led to the closure of some old hospitals, which has happened in some instances, but does he accept that hospitals which it was assumed would continue to function when the district general hospitals were being planned are now having to be closed because of a lack of resources? If he contests that point, will he assure us that there will be no such closures until he has completed his rounds of the area health authorities in Wales?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the distribution and use of resources is a matter for individual health authorities. However, before any closure or any major change of use can take place, there has to be public consultation. If there is a weight of objection, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has to consider the matter. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the statutory procedures will continue to apply if any proposals for closures are put to us by the district health authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give details of the most recent published figures of unemployment in Newport and Wales.

On 12 December 1985 the number of unemployed claimants in the Newport travel-to-work area and in Wales totalled 12,765 and 181,496 respectively.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that the recent rise in the base lending rate of the clearing banks to 12·5 per cent. is the highest this century and that unemployment in Gwent and in the whole of Wales now stands at 17 per cent.? Does he realise that, because of the Government's policies, it can be said that Wales is being murdered? Why does he not call for a change in these policies? If he cannot change them, he should get out.

Of course I am concerned about the high levels of unemployment, but it is wrong to pretend that Wales is being murdered. In 1985 Wales obtained a very high proportion of the inward investment in this country. In fact, 48 overseas projects have been secured. If that is not of interest to the hon. Gentleman. I am sure he will be pleased to hear that well over 2 million sq ft of Government factory space has been allocated to Wales. Again, that is very near to the all-time record.

Will my right hon. Friend give a lecture to Opposition Members on the relationship between high pay rises, inflation and unemployment? Will he tell them that if we go on paying ourselves above the rate of inflation and more than our competitors we shall have higher interest rates and higher unemployment?

For the first time for many decades we have had a prolonged period of substantial growth in the economy, combined with falling inflation. That offers by far the best prospect for future job creation and lower unemployment.

Does the Secretary of State recall the speech that he made when he mentioned the great gulf between City financing and industrial Britain? Was not the perfect illustration of that the behaviour of County bank with its ultimatum to withdraw money from the Berlei company? Has the right hon. Gentleman put any proposals to his colleagues to prevent such outrages recurring?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, County bank responded to my request for further time to consider the matter. The hon. Gentleman knows that I do not answer for the conduct of County bank. It must be a matter for commercial judgment. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman shares my pleasure in the fact that the company has now been bought from the receiver. As a subsidiary of the Courtaulds group, there are good prospects for its future business.

Unemployment is a continuing cause of concern for all of us, but does not industry in Wales, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, now have an unparalleled opportunity to expand?

Much industrial investment is taking place at the present time. The allocation of factory space is at, or near, record levels. We continue to secure a high proportion of inward investment from overseas. There is a greater diversity in the Welsh economy today than there has been for many decades—indeed, this century.

If the period of growth has been as impressive as the Secretary of State describes, how does he explain to those of us who do not see it that way that manufacturing output is still below the level at which it was when the Government came to office, and lower than it was 11 years ago at the time of the three-day week?

My answer follows my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir Raymond Gower). For the greater part of this century Wales has been over-dependent upon steel and coal. Those industries have been substantially reduced, but I am glad to say that, as a result of massive investment in the British Steel Corporation and a startling improvement in performance and productivity, the future for the steel industry is better than it has been for many years.

As the right hon. Gentleman still believes that the Government's policy is a glowing success, will he tell us when it will be translated into helpful unemployment figures? When will the areas that have suffered 20 per cent. unemployment or more since the Government came to office see the product of the Government's policy?

I have told the right hon. Gentleman on many occasions that I do not make forecasts of unemployment figures, any more than he did when he had responsibility for such matters.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give details of the matters relevant to the Welsh coalfield which he discussed with the chairman of the National Coal Board at their meeting on 14 November.

Our discussions ranged widely over the situation of the coal industry in Wales and the activities of NCB (Enterprise) Ltd.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it abundantly clear to the National Coal Board that in no circumstances can investment in pits in south Wales be used as a means of industrial blackmail to secure the closure of other collieries? Does he recognise that the serious position is exacerbated by the closure, announced last Friday, of the Metal Box works at Neath, which is also a coal mining area?

Any industrial closure or reduction in employment worsens the position. However, the question refers to the coal industry, which has been losing large sums of money in Wales—more than £600 million since the Government came to office. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the reduction in losses, the sharp improvement in productivity and performance and the fact that investments totalling £50 million have been announced this year. The National Coal Board expects to spend about £45 million on capital schemes in Wales in 1986–87.

Can my right hon. Friend estimate the number of jobs that have been lost as a result of markets that were lost during the year-long coal strike?

The coal strike had a damaging effect on the industry and has been a factor in the acceleration of pit closures since then.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that with the closure of nine pits and the loss of 3,500 jobs in less than a year, economically the coalfield is near to breaking point? I remind him that male unemployment in Mid Glamorgan is more than 25,000, or an awesome 23 per cent. The loss of jobs at Metal Box at Neath is a development of the utmost gravity. During his term of office, Neath has lost 1,300 jobs in double-quick time. What does he propose to do about it?

The south Wales coal industry was being broken by its many old, loss-making pits. It was making enormous losses, and there was no way in which new investment could be funded while losses were at that level. The great improvements in the performance of the coalfield means that more investment is coming forward. The hon. Gentleman will welcome the efforts of NCB (Enterprise) Ltd., which supports 13 enterprise agencies and has announced support for some 56 projects worth about £10 million. It has a further £15 million available from the original tranche that was announced for future good projects.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the formulae and methodology used to allocate resources for the National Health Service in Glamorgan and other area health authorities in Wales.

Formulae are used to assist in determining the distribution of the available resources among district health authorities. Those formulae are kept under review by a resource allocation working group, on which the authorities are represented.

Does the Minister agree that unemployment in Mid Glamorgan is almost the highest of any county in Wales, that there is an established link between unemployment and ill health, that those factors are not being taken into account as either social or economic factors, and that the resources available to Mid Glamorgan area health authority are inadequate to deal with the health demands of that county?

We do not accept that there is such a link. In terms of the adequacy of resources available to Mid Glamorgan health authority, the equalisation formula shows that Mid Glamorgan is within 0·1 per cent. of equalisation.

My hon. Friend's officials are considering sparsity and whether there could be a better formula than length of roads for areas such as Gwynned. When are those considerations likely to be completed, and when will we get a better assessment of sparsity?

The resource allocation working group will resume its work on the next round of allocations, when all those factors will be considered.

The Minister told us earlier that allocation and distribution of resources within authorities was a matter for those authorities, but what is his response when the authorities tell the public that inadequate allocation from the Welsh Office has forced them to propose closures?

As resources to the Health Service in Wales have increased by nearly 22 per cent. since 1979, we cannot accept the argument that inadequate resources from the Welsh Office are responsible for the problems that some health authorities say they have. As I have said many times, the health authorities must manage the resources that are allocated to them.

In his considerations, how much does my hon. Friend take into account the willingness of health authorities to make the best use of the resources available to them?

We do not take that factor into account when allocating resources. Of course, we take it into account when we consider centrally distributed resources.

Does the Minister realise that his complacency is directly contradicted by the experience of people who live in Mid Glamorgan and who require the services of the NHS? I refer him especially to the case of a constituent who went for a cervical smear test in January and was advised at the surgery not to bother making further contact for three months because the National Health Service did not have the money to carry out the test. How can he say that he is satisfied with the funding of the National Health Service when such delays can occur?

If a patient being treated by the health authority has a complaint about the way in which he or she has been treated, he or she has a right to submit that complaint, which will be considered through the statutory processes. There are problems with waiting lists, and the Welsh Office is helping the health authority to consider ways in which to reduce them.

Does the Minister accept that between his pathetic excuses and fiddling figures there is a great need for more resources in the valleys of south Wales? When he visits Mid Glamorgan hospitals, which he proposes to do this week, will he look closely at the needs of the people there?

Regarding the resources available for health services in Wales, any factors within the terms of the resource allocation working group which lead to any increase in resources to Mid Glamorgan—for example for social deprivation—will inevitably lead to a reduction in the resources available to other authorities. I can only repeat what I have said before, that there has been an increase in resources to the NHS in Wales of nearly 22 per cent.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many factory units have been built by the Welsh Development Agency since its inception.

Between January 1976 and December 1985 inclusive, the Welsh Development Agency completed 1,239 advance factory units, 20 bespoke factory units and 92 factory extensions, totalling more than 9·6 million sq ft.

How many factories has the agency built on average each year since the present Government came to office, and how does that compare with the figures under the Labour Government?

Of the 1,351 factories and extensions completed by the agency, 1,167 have been built since May 1979. Under the Labour Administration the agency completed an annual average of 56 factories and extensions, totalling 500,000 sq ft. Under this Government the annual average has increased to 177 completions, totalling 1·2 million sq ft of factory space. What is more, we have been getting that factory space allocated.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government have commissioned two independent studies into the future of the Welsh Development Agency? Will he assure us that none will lead to the privatisation of any of its functions?

I always welcome constructive ideas and read with interest the proposals of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) that we might privatise the agency, but that proposition has not been discussed or considered in the Welsh Office, and I have no plans to do anything of the sort.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on that remarkable achievement and deplore the failure of the Labour Government to spend money on these projects, but what has been the average take-up rate of the units?

At present the vacancy rate is about 12 per cent., which has decreased from 13·6 per cent. a year ago. Most property companies in the private sector would not think that those were unreasonable figures, bearing in mind the range of premises.

Does the Secretary of State recall that at Question Time on 21 October last we devoted considerable time to the Parrot Corporation and the involvement of the right hon. Gentleman? Is he now prepared to make a statement to the House about the investigations carried out by Baker? If, as. we discovered last week on Westland, we must continually probe to get at the truth of this issue, will the Secretary of State accept that it is his responsibility to ensure that the Welsh Development Agency conducts its business properly? In view of all the questions that were asked, surely he should have come to the House with a statement, and not tried to hide behind a reply to a written question from his former Parliamentary Private Secretary

As the hon. Gentleman said, I have answered the question. The proper course of events would be for the National Audit Office, and then the Public Accounts Committee, to pursue the matter if they considered that to be appropriate. There are well-known procedures for the PAC to carry out such an investigation while maintaining commercial confidentiality, which I am anxious should be maintained. We should not prejudice the police inquiries that are taking place and any actions by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that factory units in north Wales need good roads to provide access? When will we have his conclusion on the report of the consulting engineers into bypasses along the A5 on Anglesey, which his office has received?

Order. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question does not relate to factory units built by the Welsh Development Agency.

The building of factory units in Wales is always to be welcomed, but does the Secretary of State agree that it is time he urged upon the Cabinet a change in the Government's policy on financial intervention? Do not the redundancies declared on Friday at Metal Box at Neath underline the importance of resolving these matters?

Again, the supplementary question does not relate to factory units built by the Welsh Development Agency.

The right hon. Gentleman is evasive and unconvincing about the Parrot Corporation. Does he agree that there must be a full parliamentary inquiry into the scandal, perhaps by the Welsh Select Committee? We are still deeply suspicious of the alleged independence of what was an internal inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman may well he hiding behind the skirt of an insufficient inquiry. Does he understand that we require more information than has so far been given about the police investigation of the affair? If no more details are forthcoming, the House will expect to see published a full report of the investigation undertaken by Douglas Baker on behalf of the Secretary of State. Why did the right hon. Gentleman not ensure that there were adequate investment appraisal and risk analysis techniques? His limp control has dented the agency's reputation and undermined its status in the City. The right hon. Gentleman should take full responsibility for this disgraceful state of affairs.

I hope that in his opening remarks the hon. Gentleman was not casting any doubt on the integrity and independence of a distinguished accountant who is the chairman of a major firm of accountants. Mr. Baker found that the collateralised deposit was an unusual transaction from a commercial point of view and that it could not reasonably have been anticipated by the agency. The hon. Gentleman suggests that if he had been looking after matters he would have spotted what an eminent accountant believes he himself might have failed to spot. However, I am certain that the proper way to proceed with the questions which the hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) who asked the question, is not listening to my answer. Instead, he is jabbering away to his neighbour—[Interruption.]

Order. Time is getting on.

If the hon. Gentleman wants answers to his questions, the proper way to proceed is through the Public Accounts Committee, which was established by the House. I am certain that we should all be concerned that the company, which is now in production, continues and proves to be a great success.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will agree to Delyn borough council's application to extend the Delyn enterprise zone to include No. 1 and No. 2 sites at what was formerly Courtaulds, Greenfield.

I have received an application from Delyn borough council for the extension of the Delyn enterprise zone to include the Courtaulds Greenfield site. I shall, of course, give very careful consideration to this, but I could not now anticipate the outcome.

As regards the application to extend the zone, will my right hon. Friend take account of the fact that only 136 acres out of the 260 at present included in the zone are available for industrial development? Does he agree that the availability of land within the zone is crucial if the efforts now being made to rebuild Delyn's industrial base are to succeed?

I can certainly take full account of the points that my hon. Friend has put to me. As he knows, we are honouring our commitment to support the borough council's efforts to develop the enterprise zone at Delyn and to create alternative employment opportunities there. We have announced special capital applications of £1·8 million for the continued development of the zone, and we shall be announcing urban programme allocations shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many jobs have been lost in the mining industry in Wales since 5 March; and how many pits have been closed.

Between 5 March 1985 and 11 January 1986 the number of men on colliery books fell by 5,691. Nine pits closed, and there were two mergers.

Does the Secretary of State now accept that it was not a miners' strike, or a "Scargill strike'', but that it was a miners' strike supported by miners, particularly those in my constituency, who knew that if they were not prepared to fight for their jobs they would lose them? Since they went back to work in March we have lost 5,000 jobs, 1,500 of them in my constituency. Will he now tell me that he will ensure that the National Coal Board at Cardiff will not put further pressure on those still left in my constituency at the Coedely colliery by using, as my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Coleman) said, industrial blackmail to force them to accept redundancies and closure at that colliery otherwise no investment will be put into the Cwm colliery? Will he take that matter up with the board?

What is absolutely clear is that many of the south Wales pits have been uneconomic for a long time. As the hon. Gentleman knows, closures have continued under successive Governments. What is equally clear is that the Scargill strike, which he so strongly supported, has led to an acceleration of that programme of closures and to more job losses in the time scale than would otherwise have taken place.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be worth while for all right hon. and hon. Members to go to the Upper Waiting Hall at 4 o'clock this afternoon to see the exhibition of NCB (Enterprise) Ltd.? They will see there the excellent efforts made and the worthwhile results achieved, and will realise that NCB (Enterprise) is now being viewed as a most creditable achievement by Her Majesty's Government.

As I have already pointed out, it is doing some valuable work—56 projects worth some £10 million, to which it has provided aid of some £1·25 million already. When I gave my earlier answer, I referred to £10 million. That is the total value of those projects. The company is also supporting enterprise agencies and helping to create 1,400 or more jobs in projects that it has already announced in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the proportion of unemployed in Wales who have been continuously unemployed for more than 12 months.

On 10 October 1985, the latest date for which these figures are available, the proportion was 42·4 per cent.

Has the Secretary of State any new initiative to deal with this problem?

The hon. Member will be aware that there is a whole string of initiatives, including those concerning the community programme, where the number of places available in Wales—over 20,500 to be allocated by June this year—is more than double the total available in April last year. There are some 43,000 people currently covered by special employment and training measures in Wales, and we shall continue to press on with making a success of the wide range of measures that the Government have introduced.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what relationship his Department intends as between the all-Wales strategy for the development of the mentally handicapped and the Education Act 1981.

The all-Wales advisory panel has established a sub-group to study education aspects of the strategy, and education interests are represented on it. I have no doubt that, when it reports later this year, it will give further advice on the relationship between the strategy and the Education Act 1981.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is much dissatisfaction among education authorities over this matter and that there is great concern among many parents of handicapped children, who fear the end of special schools in favour of wholesale integration of such children into ordinary schools?

I am not aware of dissatisfaction per se among the education authorities. After all, it is for them to establish their priorities. However, I am aware of certain dissatisfaction along the lines that my hon. Friend suggests, in South Glamorgan. This is a matter for parents to resolve with the education authority, but we are following the situation closely.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representation he has had about hospital provision in Mid Glamorgan; and if he will make a statement.

The most recent representations that I have received relate to the Mid Glamorgan health authority's rationalisation proposals. These have not yet been finalised, but if they involve any permanent closures they are subject to consultation procedures and submission to my right hon. Friend. I cannot therefore comment on them at this stage.

Will the Minister accept that outside all the rationalisation proposals and the fiddling of figures and formulae and so on, there is an enormous need in the south Wales valleys for investment in new hospitals, rather than that existing ones should be closed?

The hon. Gentleman is obviously not aware that we have in fact been building new hospitals.

Where?

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many staff are employed by the Church Commission in the service of the Bishop of Durham, at what cost, what is the nature of their duties; and if he will make a statement.

None Sir, but there are five full-time or part-time staff in the service of the Bishop of Durham. There are two secretaries, a chaplain, a chauffeur/ handyman and a gardener. The cost to the commissioners is £23,405 per annum.

I find it surprising that, in view of some of the things that the Bishop of Durham has said, he allows himself to live in a palace that has cost nearly £1 million in 10 years to maintain, and that he enjoys a staff costing some £23,000 to the commissioners and many thousands more to church people. Is it not a case of people in glass houses not throwing stones? Let him think about that.

Of course I shall think of anything that my hon. Friend says, but I have compared the staff with those of other bishops, and it is very much in line with them. We must remember that the bishop lives in a great and historic house. It costs a large sum of money to maintain, but I am confidently told that it would cause great distress in the area if the bishop were to vacate it for the time being.

Despite the sanctimonious and sycophantic question of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the Bishop of Durham has done a great service to the people of the north-east of England by drawing attention to the fact that, as a result of the Government's unemployment policy, unemployment in the north-east has risen by an astronomic amount, and that the general social conditions there compared with the south are deplorable? Ought not the Bishop of Durham to be congratulated on drawing attention to those matters?

Those comments only lead me to say that I hope I shall never be commended by the hon. Gentleman.

Are we to take it from the last remarks that the Bishop of Durham rides to hounds? Can my hon. Friend assure us that the Bishop of Durham's chaplain holds entirely orthodox beliefs?

I am not responsible for the chaplain. In fact, he is no charge to the commissioners. In reply to the first part of the question, I do not know anything about the bishop's leisure time activities.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Christians have a view on the social problems, such as unemployment, that face us, especially when they afflict communities, and that it is a Christian virtue for any bishop to stand up and comment when the Government carry out such policies?

I have always stood up for the right of bishops to express their views in whatever way they choose. The only reservation that I have had was if they appeared to be fundamentally deviating from Christian tendencies.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House whether deaconesses in the service of the Bishop of Durham are likely to see legislation during this Parliament on the matter of their ordination?

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his ingenuity. The House will be asked to consider a measure which concerns deaconesses. I do not expect that the House will be asked to consider it before Easter.

I agree that bishops are entitled to their views on social policy. Is my hon. Friend aware that many people in the diocese of the Bishop of Durham are apprenhensive about his theological views? As some people are now expressing anxiety that he should not confirm their candidates for confirmation, is it likely that his staff will be reduced pro rata?

I do not think the staff work on the basis of results in that way.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Leicester, East of 18 November, Official Report, column 14, the Church Commissioners have yet made a statement of their policy towards the proposed deregulation of Sunday trading.

The commissioners are very conscious of the view expressed by the General Synod on this issue, which has been pressed so eloquently in another place. The commissioners are drawing this view to the attention of those retail companies in which they are shareholders. They are asking those companies how they feel about the whole issue.

I welcome the answer given by my hon. Friend. It is important for the Church Commissioners to declare a view, because they may be considered hypocritical, in that they have £240 million invested in shopping precincts in Gateshead, Ipswich and Glasgow and in many companies that wish to open on Sundays, such as Habitat and British Home Stores. Will my hon. Friend make it clear to the Church Commissioners that, by last week, 16,292 people had written to the Home Secretary expressing concern about Sunday trading? Only 27 of those people were in favour. Does that not show that the public do not want to go to the shops on a Sunday?

The reasons set out by my hon. Friend were some of those that moved the Church Commissioners to take the steps that I have given in my answer. It will be interesting to see what response we receive. I am aware of the immense strength of feeling on the issue. The architect of the Bill was a previous Home Secretary. I think that it was a disastrous misjudgment.

Would it not a matter for concern if the commissioners had a view on this subject? Do we not have a right to look to the Synod for that view, and not to the commissioners?

That is partly the reason why it is the General Synod's view that has been drawn to the attention of the various retail groups that I have described. I think that from time to time, and on appropriate occasions, the Church Commissioners are also expected to hold views on the matter of their investments, and they do.

Will the Church Commissioners take into account the fact that in the mid-west of the United States of America and in Scotland, where there has been Sunday trading for a long time, people are not noticeably irreligious? Will they also take into account the fact that the churches are open on Sunday?

I think that in Scotland the situation will be dramatically different if there is no restriction of any kind in England. I do not believe that that will stop at the borders. It will go northwards in a way that people will find unpleasant.

The hon. Member has been asked about the shares owned by the Church Commissioners Do the Church Commissioners own any shares in Westland helicopters? Did they attend the meeting at the Albert hall recently? Which option do they prefer, if any, and which half of the Conservative Cabinet do they support?

Order. We are discussing Sunday trading, but I will allow that question because I am interested.

I hope that I am giving an accurate answer. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman. I believe that the commissioners have no shares in Westland. I am sure that if they had taken part in the meeting they would have been very prayerful before they went.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives his Department has taken on planning policies; and if he will make a statement.

The Welsh Office and the Department of the Environment have jointly taken planning policy initiatives, mainly aimed at removing unnecessary controls and improving and speeding up the operation of the planning system. In addition, the office is consulting on the draft circular on housing in Wales for senior management referred to in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower) on 9 December.

Does the Minister accept that the Welsh Office, under his right hon. Friend's tenure, is the most interventionist in terms of planning policy that Wales has seen since the inception of the Welsh Office, and that his intervention amounts to interference in the opportunities that local planning authorities have to pursue planning policies and housing development related to local needs?

I do not accept that my right hon. Friend is interventionist in his planning policies. As I am sure the hon. Member is aware, it is open to anyone who has an application turned down to appeal to the Welsh Office. The normal practice is for an inspector to be appointed to consider the case.

asked the Minister for the Arts when he will be able to make a statement concerning tax incentives to benefit the arts.

Tax incentives are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This Government have already reduced rates of personal and corporate taxation and reduced the rate of capital transfer tax. The arts have benefited from these and other measures, including a reduction in the covenanting period for gifts to charities. We shall continue to look for improvements.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment as a Privy Councillor. Has he seen the article on page 3 of The Times today headed:

"Charity aid tax scheme proposed"?

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his first remark. As to his second remark, I have, of course, seen the article in The Times. As he will be aware, this is principally a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Government have already done a great deal to encourage giving to charitable bodies. I believe that everything possible should be done to improve that still further.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, when he talks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about those matters, that there is agreement across the Floor here, amongst all parties and throughout the arts world, that the future of our heritage in art and architecture rests upon charitable giving being made tax-deductible along the lines described in the article? Will he encourage the Chancellor to that view?

I note what my hon. Friend says. Of course I want to see everything possible being done to improve encouragement for arts bodies. Much is being done. I have noted that there was a strong, unanimous report on the subject of tax incentives by a previous Select Committee that deal with these matters. I have taken note of that report.

asked the Minister for the Arts what recent representations he has received about the progress of the business sponsorship incentive scheme.

All the representations that I have received recently have praised the progress of the scheme.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, generally, local authorities could do much more to promote business sponsorship of the arts in their communities? Does he further agree that many could follow the example set by Barnet and appoint an arts officer with responsibility to encourage the business sponsorship incentive scheme?

I agree with my hon. Friend. Local authorities can do a great deal. His borough of Barnet has set a lead. I was glad to meet representatives from there. including the arts officer, and was able to congratulate them on the lead that they had taken.

While support is always to be welcomed, does the Minister accept that in those areas where business is struggling to survive, or may have already disappeared, it will be harmful for too much to be expected? Does he agree that he needs to be careful to avoid being divisive or dangerous, in a regional sense, in that matter?

I wish to see as much support as possible for the arts in all areas. I attach great importance to all regions in this country, including the north. I have made two visits to the north-east. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman made. It is up to businesses to decide whether they can make those contributions. They must always remember that they can offset them for tax purposes if they can be categorised as marketing and advertising.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, welcome as his support is for the business sponsorship, and much as I applaud and encourage it, the solution to the problem lies in a satisfactory answer to the first arts question on the Order Paper? Does he accept that we are glad that he referred to the Select Committee report? Has he yet made any progress in convincing the Chancellor of its merits?

I am aware of the strength of my hon. Friend's views on this subject. He played a leading part in the Select Committee which came up with views about the need for further changes. We have already made progress—my hon. Friend acknowledges that—but this is a matter principally for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. The Government are, however, committed to improving incentives for giving to arts and charitable bodies.

As this highly successful scheme is a great credit to the sponsoring firms in association with the Government and arts bodies, will the Government consider means of extending the scheme to include capital projects?

I cannot give an understanding on that, but I am glad that I have been able to increase the budget of the business sponsorship incentive scheme substantially, from £1 million this year to £1·75 million in the coming financial year. I hope that that will be a major encouragement to business to sponsor the arts even more.

asked the Minister for the Arts if he has received any requests from the Arts Council for additional funding for the South Bank arts complex; and if he will make a statement.

The Arts Council included the needs of the South Bank arts centre in its general statement of funding requirements and I took these into account in determining the figure of £25 million for post-abolition funding which I announced on 14 November 1985.

Is the Minister aware that there has been a reorganisation over at the Royal Festival hall by the South Bank board, which has resulted in the general administrator, a GLC employee on £23,000 a year, being sacked and the appointment of two general administrators and nine additional directors on salaries ranging from £22,000 to £35,000 a year? Is he further aware that blue collar workers have not been told what jobs they will have, except that 60 of them will be declared redundant? Does the Minister believe that that is how to handle the situation post-abolition? Does he agree that it is a disgraceful example of the Arts Council creating jobs for itself?

I have great confidence in the new South Bank board under the leadership of Ronnie Grierson. It is determined to make an exciting job of the future for the South Bank and I believe that there is every prospect of that happening. We are still waiting for figures of the Arts Council's allocation. It is for the board to decide what staff it should have. I ask the hon. Gentleman to remember that its responsibilities are much larger than those of the GLC until 1 April. They include the whole of the South Bank, whereas the GLC covers only three concert halls.

Does the Minister remember that when the Government took the foolish and malicious decision to abolish the GLC it was on the ground that it was undemocratic and costly? The Government have now created a quango of a quango to operate the South Bank and have doubled the cost of administration alone. Does he agree that costs are escalating, that the South Bank has demanded that they be met, and that the only source of funding is the inadequate sum provided to make good the shortfall resulting from abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan counties?

The hon. Gentleman is ignoring the point that I have just made. The responsibilities that the South Bank board has taken on are wider than those of the GLC, which cover only three concert halls. The board, therefore, has wider responsibilities. It is determined to involve the private sector and the Government in the longer term. That provides a very good prospect.

asked the Minister for the Arts what is his current estimate of the shortfall in arts funding for 1986–87 in the light of the abolition of the Greater London council and metropolitan counties; and if he will make a statement.

There should be no shortfall. I am making £25 million available to the Arts Council for post-abolition funding in 1986–87. It is reasonable that the rest of the GLC and metropolitan counties' spending should be taken up by successor authorities, which will be relieved of substantial precepts.

I am grateful for that reply. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the extent to which uncertainty exacerbates the misery of arts establishments? Will he address his mind to the fate of the Greater London research library, which has been funded by the GLC and has two months of funding to go but still has had no statement about its future?

Of course I am aware of the problem of uncertainty, and that was why I tried to make an early announcement about central Government funding to deal with abolition problems. It is now up to successor authorities to play their part, and I am glad that Westminster borough council is setting a lead in that respect. The library is principally a matter for the Department of the Environment. I understand that the London Residuary Body is discussing with the London boroughs proposals for the continuation of a Londonwide service.

asked the Minister for the Arts what is the proposed level of funding for the Eastern region arts association for 1986–87; and what percentage change this represents since 1979.

It is for the Arts Council to determine the level of funding for individual regional arts associations. The 1986–87 funding level for Eastern Arts has not yet been announced.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recognise that since this Government came to power the increase in real terms in the eastern area has been 50 per cent.? Does he agree that that gives the lie to Opposition claims about lack of commitment by this Government to the arts?

I can confirm to my hon. Friend that between 1979–80 and 1985–86 there was a real increase of over 50 per cent. in the allocation to Eastern Arts. As my hon. Friend says, that is a real demonstration of the Government's strong commitment to the arts.