asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons, male and female, are unemployed in Ogmore; how many are long-term unemployed and under 21 years of age; and how the figure compares to the other areas of Wales.

On 9 January 1986 there were 4,084 male and 1,238 female claimants unemployed in the Ogmore constituency. Data on age of claimants and duration of unemployment are available only until October 1985, when there were 158 males and 78 females under 20 years of age who had been unemployed for over 12 months. I will, with permission, circulate the comparative information requested in the Official Report.

Does the Secretary of State share the views of the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) that his Government and his party must switch to caring Conservatism and caring capitalism? Is he not aware of the total degradation and frustration that unemployment creates in our schools, homes and throughout society? Is he not concerned that the attitudes of desperation are leading to the escalation of violence and crime in the Principality in particular? Is he not concerned about the young who are now taking to drugs? Is it not time that he joined his colleagues in protesting—

Order. That is a very long question.

for a change in attitudes or a change in leadership?

I am greatly concerned by the current levels of unemployment. I do not think that it needs a switch or a change of attitude, because that concern is clearly shared by all Ministers and members of the Government. If the hon. Gentleman refers to changes in attitude, I welcome the substantial changes in attitudes and performance which have happened generally throughout industry. However, I think that it is necessary for those in employment to recognise that pay increases for those in work create unemployment.

Is not the description by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) of violence in Wales a gross misrepresentation of the real position and a distortion of the conditions which obtain?

I think that perhaps the most important thing in the future of job creation in Wales is the high reputation which has been gained here and abroad by firms in respect of the attitude and performance of the Welsh work force and those who live in Wales. They have an image, not of violence and hostility, but of a work force which will co-operate to the full to make a success of companies. That is where the future lies.

Giver, that in Wales there is little realistic prospect of young people obtaining any sort of work and that they have to rely almost entirely on the youth training scheme, what is the Secretary of State's response to the recent decision of the Mid-Glamorgan area manpower board to refuse to sanction any further youth training schemes in 1986–87?

It is not true that there is no prospect for young people in Wales. It happens that I have been round two major companies in Wales which are taking on labour at the present time, with an average age of 18½. Two of the other companies which I have recently been round in south Wales have an average age of under 27. The truth is that many young people are obtaining employment. I am concerned that agreement has not yet been reached in Mid-Glamorgan about proposals put forward by the Manpower Services Commission. I believe that these problems can and will be overcome. I note with satisfaction that other providers of training have said that they would provide and take up the training places if necessary. I hope that in the reality that will not prove necessary.

As the Labour party has now as good as admitted that there is nothing that it can do about unemployment in the short term, is it not clear that the best and quickest alleviation of the problem lies in further expansion of the community programme? Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to press for the removal of the remaining obstacles in the way of an expansion of that programme?

I agree with my hon. Friend that the community programme is very important for the long-term unemployed. At the end of December last year there were over 12,000 filled places in Wales, and the aim is to expand that total to 20,500 by June.

In view of the answer that the Secretary of State gave about training, does he not think it absurd and intolerable that the Government should be insisting, through the Manpower Services Commission, that extra funds should be made available by local authorities, particularly in the areas that are hardest hit, to keep the training schemes going? Why does the right hon. Gentleman not come out boldly and say that the Government should pay for that? Has he cleared up the confusion of his colleague, because the Employment Minister said only a couple of weeks ago that no burden would be put on the local authorities? Why should we have to bear that burden in Wales?

I take it not very well when the right hon. Gentleman, of all people, lectures this Government on youth training, while his Government totally failed to make provision for proper youth training, and this Government have launched the largest programme of youth training ever undertaken in this country and are now extending the YTS from one to two years. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman left us such a monstrous backlog to catch up.

Despite the youth training jobs and the other jobs that have been brought on stream, does the Secretary of State not recognise that, with unemployment more than doubled since his Government came to office in 1979, the time has come for there to be a change of policy? How much worse does the situation have to get before we have that change of policy?

I notice that the hon. Gentleman does not tell us what the policy is that will produce growth without inflation, although I hope that he will at least welcome the fact that we are in the fifth year of growth, that inflation continues to fall, that we have the fastest growing economy in Europe, that manufacturing investment has grown steadily since 1983, and that a large number of firms in Wales are undertaking massive investment and massive expansion and are taking on people, as I have discovered when visiting several of them in the past few weeks.

Is it not a fact that the measures that the Government have introduced — the community programme, the enterprise allowance scheme, the job start scheme, and all the other measures to help the long-term unemployed — are the envy of any Socialist Government, and are far more imaginative than anything put forward by the Opposition when they were in government? Will my right hon. Friend remind the House of how many jobs have been created in this country compared with other European countries, and of the percentage of those employed in this country compared with other countries in the EEC?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to all those matters. The fact is that the scheme would not have been the envy of the Labour Government, because they failed to take the necessary measures which have been introduced by this Government against a most difficult background.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that regional aid to Wales has fallen by 40 per cent. since 1979 and is due to fall further until 1990? With such massive unemployment, as outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), is not the trend towards social disintegration? Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman realised that Wales has been at the receiving end, not of caring capitalism, but of naked, aggressive and irresponsible capitalism?

The hon. Gentleman talks about regional policy. It is effective in relative terms, and Wales is very well placed, as is borne out by the fact that over about three years we have obtained about 20 per cent. of all inward investment to this country, and in 1985 we obtained 48 overseas projects—over double the 1983 figure. Only last week we secured for Wales one of the best high technology research British-based companies. Renishaw Research Ltd. is opening a new factory in Gwent, and more than 500 people will be taken on by this world-leading firm.

I have allowed a long run on this first question. We must now get on. I ask the House for shorter supplementary questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had regarding hospital waiting lists; and if he will make a statement.

From time to time I receive representations about waiting lists, usually based on individual cases. There are many different reasons why waiting lists develop in individual specialties. Health authorities have been asked to examine their lists and my Department is currently arranging a workshop with their representatives to consider the problems identified and the development of possible solutions.

I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will not sail in the same direction as the Secretary of State, who is on his way out with the Prime Minister. Will he take a refreshing, long look at the extraordinary waiting list in the Principality? In Wales, 130,000 people are waiting to get into hospital, and more than 10,000 have been waiting for in-patient treatment for more than a year. Let us have some truth and honesty for once from the Government. Will the Minister advise me? On Friday I talked to a constituent in Clwyd who is suffering from hair loss because of a disease of the scalp. She has been told that she cannot see a consultant for three months. What is the Minister's advice to my constituent?

The hon. Member suggests that I do not give comparative figures, but sometimes it is a good idea. The rate of increase of in-patient waiting lists has remained roughly consistent with that of the previous Labour Government. The rate of increase in terms of outpatients has fallen by 5 per cent. under the Government. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's constituent, if he will write to me with the details I shall have the case considered.

Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to congratulate Clwyd health authority on its productivity record, especially on halving the eye treatment waiting list during the past year? Will he acknowledge that Clwyd's financial allocation for 1986–87 is not as generous as it might at first appear, because 2·5 per cent. of the 5·5 per cent. increase is needed to meet the cost of pay awards not fully funded last year, leaving only 3 per cent. to cover growth of services, advances in technology and other urgently required improvements in the services?

I know that Clwyd is currently conducting a study of its waiting lists. I welcome its action. With regard to resources in this year's allocation to Clwyd, the conditions in which they were announced were the same for Clwyd as for every health authority in Wales. I should point out that since 1979 resources for Clwyd have increased, taking into account those allocations, by just over 32 per cent.

As Pontypridd district hospital is responsible for 8,000 out-patient treatments per year, and as that hospital is scheduled for closure, what sense is there in adding those to the existing lists in Mid-Glamorgan? Must the population of Mid-Glamorgan now look for admission to one of the hon. Gentleman's famous workshops?

The decision about what services to provide in Mid-Glamorgan is one for that health authority.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the improvements in the National Health Service under this Government, and the improved treatment, when not such good treatment, or even no treatment, was possible before, have encouraged longer waiting lists? What are the waiting times for those on the waiting list?

My hon. Friend has made a well thought out and valid point. In terms of throughput, inpatient treatment has increased by 18 per cent. Under the Labour Government it increased by only 6 per cent. Outpatient treatment has increased by 12 per cent. Under the previous Labour Government it fell by 3·5 per cent.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received from local authorities in Wales concerning the rate support grant settlement for 1986–87; and how many of these expressed dissatisfaction with the settlement.

I have received letters from four local authorities, and five hon. Members have written expressing concern on behalf of their local authorities.

As the eight counties in Wales have had to increase their rates by between 11 and 28 per cent. to make up for the loss in real terms of rate support grant from the Welsh Office, does the Secretary of State agree that the blame for the rate increases that will hit the people of Wales later this year must be laid fairly and squarely at the door of the Welsh Office?

No, I do not agree. Provision is up, above the expected rate of inflation, and the settlement is extremely generous in relation to the settlement in England and the past performance of Welsh local government. I can see no possible justification for some of the very large rate increases that have been proposed by counties in Wales. I believe that they will be damaging, not only to those who have to pay the bills, but to employment prospects, about which people have been expressing concern.

What circumstances explain the difference in the rates proposed by Welsh counties this year and those imposed last year, apart from the fact that there were local government elections last year?

In the case of South Glamorgan, my hon. Friend may have a point. I understand that the county council spent about £3·5 million of balances last year and has decided not to spend them this year. I believe that the county council should justify the proposed rate increase to its ratepayers and local people. I do not believe that any proper justification has been given for it.

I urge the right hon. Gentleman to cease his attacks on the Welsh county councils. No one wants higher rates, but I remind the Secretary of State that the counties are facing demands on their services that are a consequence of cuts and high unemployment. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that Gwynedd county council has a first-rate case, because Holyhead town has a male unemployment rate of about 27 per cent.?

In my view, none of that justifies, for example, South Glamorgan proposing an increase in precept of six times the forecast rate of inflation. The hon. Gentleman refers to Gwynedd, where expenditure per head is the highest in Wales, block grant per head is higher than the Welsh county average, and grant-related expenditure per head is the highest in Wales. That does not make a particularly good case for the hardships of Gwynedd.

Although many Conservative Members have reservations about the rate support grant for Clwyd, we find the proposed 15·7 per cent. rate increase totally unacceptable. Will my right hon. Friend condemn it?

I hope that local ratepayers and employers, in particlar, will make clear to the county council what the consequences will be if it proceeds with its rate proposal.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by how much unemployment has increased in Clwyd and in Wales since 1979, expressed as a total and as a percentage.

On 9 January 1986 there were 25,786 unemployed claimants in Clwyd. A comparable claimant-based figure for January 1979 is not available. For Wales as a whole, for the same dates, the seasonally adjusted claimant-based figures were 176,500 and 75,100 respectively, an increase of 135 per cent.

Those figures invalidate the remarks of the Secretary of State in answer to a previous question. When will this waste of human resources in Wales end? When can measurable numbers of our people look to work that will get rid of the distressing dole queues?

The hon. Gentleman must remember that during the lifetime of this Government the number of people eligible to work has increased by about 35,000. An increasing number of people are coming on to the labour market.

The right hon. Gentleman has held the high office of Secretary of State for Wales for almost seven years, during which time there has been the highest ever unemployment percentage in Cardigan. As nothing was done during those years to alleviate the problem, what advice will he give today to the unemployed young people in that area?

To say that nothing has been done is to deny the facts. The hon. Gentleman knows well of the considerable efforts, some of them very successful, of Mid-Wales Development. He also knows of the measures taken in his constituency. I think, for example, of Aberystwyth, where there have been new projects and where a number of new factory units have been built.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) has recently been going around Wales making promises which, if allied to the remainder of the Opposition's policies, would set off a rate of inflation that would undermine any hope of investment in this country—the very investment that is the hope for the future?

Yes, I have noted that, and the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) has been doing that at a time when his right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) has been pointing to the castasrophic dangers of inflation again being let loose and suggesting that it was time that the Opposition worked out a policy to deal with that priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales; what were the equivalent figures in May 1979; and what was the percentage increase in each case.

On 9 January 1986 unemployed claimants totalled 13,300 in the Newport travel-to-work area and 30,718 in Gwent. Comparable claimant-based figures for May 1979 are not available. For Wales as a whole, for the same dates, the seasonally adjusted claimant-based figures were 176,500 and 74,200 respectively, an increase of 137·9 per cent.

Do not those outrageous figures reveal the complete collapse of the crackpot economic strategy with which the Secretary of State has been so closely associated? What guarantee can he give the House today that the figures will not shortly reach 200,000? If he cannot give that guarantee, when they reach that level will he resign?

The figures are rather more representative of the position that we found at the Llanwern steelworks in the hon. Gentleman's constituency when we came into government. It was grossly overmanned, inefficient and had no prospects for any future. It has now become one of the most efficient and competitive steel plants in the world and is actually taking on labour.

I do not want to accuse the Secretary of State of being an economic illiterate, but does he not accept that Opposition Members have asked macroeconomic questions, while he has taken us on a macroeconomic tour of some of the plants in Wales with which he has been involved during the past couple of months? That is not the answer that we need. We need a strategic answer, and he is not giving one.

If the hon. Gentleman, of all people, having studied the history of Wales, does not understand that the decline of old basic industries and the attraction into Wales of new industries that will form a foundation for the future is the key economic issue confronting the Principality, I can only say that I am astonished and that he jolly well ought to know.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the insensitive way in which the Muntz Plastics factory in my constituency is laying off 130 workers? Will he guarantee to provide the support necessary to ease those lay-offs?

The commercial decision must be taken by the company, but my hon. Friend knows that the Government have provided massive assistance to Clwyd to help deal with redundancies there, especially during the past 12 months. The Government have made a substantial allocation of urban aid, and we shall continue to provide that part of port-east Wales with support at the highest level. Such assistance makes that part of the country especially successful in attracting new industry and investment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that circumstances in Wales are disastrous and that the inward investment of which he speaks is not on a sufficient scale to solve the deep problems of Wales? Will he ask the National Coal Board to stop importing foreign coal which is destroying our mining industry? If the right hon. Gentleman really wants to do something about jobs, why does he not protect our fragile industrial structure rather than destroy it by his weak-kneed and pathetic subservience to the Prime Minister?

The National Coal Board has imported coal for two reasons. It has imported special coals, which are not readily available in Britain, and coal required by the British Steel Corporation, which has to survive in an internationally competitive market. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the BSC should operate with one hand tied behind its back to help his miners.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council houses have been sold to sitting tenants in Wales since May 1979.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council dwellings have been sold to tenants (a) in the area of the Vale of Glamorgan council, (b) in the county of South Glamorgan and (c) in Wales since May 1979.

Between May 1979 and the end of last year 2,057 council dwellings were sold in the Vale of Glamorgan and 5,963 in South Glamorgan out of the estimated total of 46,000 sales in the whole of Wales. Taking sales by Cwmbran development corporation, Mid Wales Development and housing associations into account, under this Administration over 50,000 public sector tenants in Wales have now bought their homes.

How does the number of sales in the whole of Wales compare with the number of right-to-buy applications in Wales?

Ninety per cent. of live applications have been processed.

As the existing legislation varies the terms under which people can buy and resell, does my hon. Friend think it desirable that they should be publicised by his Department?

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We propose, in the Housing and Planning Bill, to increase the discounts for flats to a maximum of 70 per cent. and to introduce measures to provide further protection for buyers of flats against unexpectedly high service charges. We also propose to reduce from five to three years the period during which discount would be repayable. That applies to flats and houses. We shall consider a publicity campaign when that Bill becomes law.

How many houses in Wales are unfit for human habitation? How many lack one or more of the basic amenities? Why has the money from the sale of council houses not been given to local authorities so that they can build houses for those who have to live in deplorable conditions?

The Government have spent £275 million on private sector renovation, compared with the Labour Government's £57 million, and £205 million on public sector renovation, compared with the Labour Government's £86 million.

Is it not a fact that the Government have given a dignity to council tenants which the Labour party has consistently denied them? The Government have enabled council tenants to buy council houses, which was consistently denied them by the Labour party; the Government have given council tenants a tenant's charter which enables them to do things with their council houses and to take in lodgers, which the Labour party has denied them; and the Government have introduced the right to repair as from 1 January 1986, which gives council tenants the opportunity to repair their homes, which the Labour party has again consistently denied them.

I entirely agree with all of my hon. Friend's points. I only hope that that dignity will not be taken from council tenants by the Labour party if its policy document on the future of council house sales is put into effect.

asked the Secretary for Wales what was the perinatal mortality rate in (a) Wales and (b) West Glamorgan in (i) 1979 and (ii) for the most recent available date.

The perinatal mortality rate for Wales was 15·6 per thousand total births in 1979, and the corresponding rate for West Glamorgan was 18 per thousand total births. By 1984, the latest year for which this information is available, the rates had fallen to 10·5 and 9·2 respectively.

Will the Minister assure the House that a comprehensive service for the newly born in Wales will be instituted, including a paediatric cardiologist, a paediatric cardiac surgeon and a paediatric surgeon so that babies born in Wales are given the same first-class service as babies born in England?

Those matters must be considered by individual health authorities in terms of the priorities that they determine. However, the Government have had considerable success in reducing the perinatal mortality rate, which is part of the success of our perinatal mortality initiative.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House whether there have been any improvements in the maternity service in Wales?

There has been considerable improvement in the maternity service in Wales in recent years, and the figures that I have quoted bear that out.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with the chairman of the Welsh water authority regarding the privatisation of its services; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Welsh water authority; what subjects were discussed; and if he will make a statement.

I spoke to the chairman of the Welsh water authority about water privatisation only last week. Both my hon. Friend and I regularly discuss the authority's affairs with the chairman. I have nothing to add to the statement that I made last week.

Does the Secretary of State not realise how deeply offensive it is to the overwhelming majority of Welsh people to introduce the concept of profiteering into such a basic supply as water to householders? Does he accept that privatisation is supposed to be a part of competition, but that there will be no such competition regarding the water supply? Does he agree that he has no mandate to introduce this system before the general election?

Many people in Wales will wish to participate and own shares in the company. It is not true that there is no room for competition. There certainly is room for greatly improved services and efficiency, and that is to the benefit of all water users in Wales.

The Secretary of State will no doubt recall that on Wednesday he told us that the chairman of the Welsh water authority was in favour of privatisation, and that I told him that I had spoken to the chief executive who told me that he could see no value in privatisation for consumers or employees. Will he tell the House who is speaking for the Welsh water authority? Is it the chairman, whom he appointed, or the chief executive, who is speaking for both the authority and the majority of people in Wales?

The chief executive of the Welsh water authority has written to me about the statement that the hon. Lady quoted. In his letter to me he states:

"I am very sorry that confusion was caused but I would like to set the record straight and make it clear that I said nothing of the sort to Mrs. Clwyd."

"I hope you do not mind my writing to you to set out the facts but I do feel particularly aggrieved when words attributed to me in the House were a complete fabrication."

Will my right hon. Friend remind the Opposition that 25 per cent. of the water in Britain is already supplied by private sector water companies efficiently and without complaint? Will he hammer home the fact that privatisation will free the Welsh water authority from financial constraints, allow it to borrow money more cheaply and thus accelerate its capital programme?

I agree with every word that my hon. Friend has uttered.

What will happen to tenanted farms, forestry and land if the Welsh water authority is privatised? Will farmers be able to buy their own farms from the authority?

The position will be exactly as it is now. The water authority will retain such land as it thinks necessary for its operations. Those whom the hon. Gentleman mentions will benefit from a more efficient authority which can provide a better service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total expenditure, in the latest year for which figures are available, by his Department on measures to reduce the incidence of heart disease in Wales.

The Welsh heart programme is receiving very substantial support from the Government. The Health Education Council has pledged £1·5 million over a period of five years. In addition, when I visited Heartbeat Wales on Friday, I announced that the Welsh Office was adding £30,000 to the £100,000 already granted in this financial year and, subject to the usual processes of parliamentary approval, £200,000 in the next.

I welcome the Minister's announcement of his visit to Heartbeat Wales last Friday. All who are concerned about the level of heart disease in Wales support the programme. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the amount of expenditure on advertising by cigarette manufacturers in Wales during the period of this campaign is something that we must all condemn? Will the Government take action directly against the cigarette manufacturers over this issue?

The Government are reviewing the existing voluntary arrangements with the tobacco industry. I should not wish to speculate on the outcome of these discussions, but I am sure that the views of the medical profession will be taken into consideration. I share the hon. Gentleman's support for the work of Heartbeat Wales.

Cannot complex congenital heart disease be treated at Morriston and Cardiff instead of patients having to go to Bristol, Hammersmith and Birmingham?

The services that a hospital provides are a matter for the health authority to consider. At the same time, we have centrally-funded services, which we review from time to time.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the alarming increase in smoking among schoolchidren? If we are to get on top of heart disease, is it not essential to get on top of the problem of child smokers?

I am aware of my hon. Friend's point. This problem is particularly disturbing and prevalent among young girls. We are taking steps to increase our public relations profile within schools to try to alleviate the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the level of funding to Mid-Glamorgan area health authority.

My right hon. Friend has received a number of written representations from residents of Mid-Glamorgan. We have also recently met the chairman of the health authority to discuss its financial position.

Does not the fact that there is real disquiet on the part of those involved in the Health Service in Mid-Glamorgan cause anxiety to the Minister? Does he accept that Wales has one of the lowest per capita expenditures on the National Health Service in Europe and that the 5·5 per cent. allocated to Mid-Glamorgan for 1986 is inadequate? Is he aware that we have the third longest waiting list for hospital admissions in the whole of the United Kingdom and that there is no prospect of an improvement in that situation until he and the Government start to change their policies?

We are concerned about the situation in Mid-Glamorgan. That is why we are helping the health authority in its current difficulties. However, on the basis of the latest formula assessment, Mid-Glamorgan is shown to be funded at virtually the correct level.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the reduction in Clwyd's block grant figure for 1986–87 between the provisional announcement last July and December's settlement.

The county chief executive and treasurer have written to me, as has my hon. Friend.

When my right hon. Friend decides how to re-distribute the underclaimed grant, will he give special consideration to Clwyd's financial predicament, which his own officials concede has been aggravated by what they describe as the "unfortunate" wide difference between its provisional and final block grant figures?

I agree that there was a change between the provisional indications and the final figure, for the reasons that have been given previously in the House and in correspondence. I shall certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says, but I have also made it clear that it is not my intention to use those funds to encourage or compensate high-spending authorities. I shall have to take proper account of those authorities which have sought to meet, and have succeeded in meeting the Government's objective.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many staff are paid, fully or in part, by the Church Commissioners, to work in the service of diocesan bishops, at what cost and in what capacities; and if he will make a statement.

There are 177 full-time or part-time staff working in the service of diocesan bishops. They include 21 chaplains, 88 secretaries and 68 chaffeurs, handymen and gardeners. The cost to the commissioners is £893,000 per annum.

Has my hon. Friend ever had a ride in a bishop's car? When do bishops have chauffeurs and when do they not? Secondly, what do the handymen do that the bishops cannot do? Thirdly, why was £10,000 spent on research into the political attitude of the vicars and other clergy?

For the average diocesan bishop, the staff is one part-time chaplain, two full-time secretaries, one part-time chauffeur and one part-time gardener-handyman. I have no doubt that the bishops are more than capable of doing the work for themselves, possibly with the exception of secretarial work. However, the support that they need to fulfil their wider diocesan work must result in their being backed up adequately, and that is the reason for the expenditure.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is necessary for bishops to have a proper advisory secretarial staff so that, when they speak on public affairs, their remarks are well-informed? Does my hon. Friend agree that they have a right so to speak, whether or not we agree with what they say?

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It must be remembered that some of the bishops have very long distances to travel to the ends of their dioceses, and many of the senior bishops have duties to perform outside their dioceses.

Does the hon. Gentleman not get tired of veiled attacks on the Church by his hon. Friends?

I do not think that they are attacks. Sometimes questions come from pleasant hon. Friends who just wish to put an edge on the courtesies that they would like to extend to me.

Did the Church Commissioners or the bishops have any comments to make on the remarks of the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes), who said about the then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry—

Order. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question does not seem to be much related to bishops' staffs.

I am coming to that, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman said that the former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry should be replaced by a red-blooded Englishman. Do such—

Order. That has nothing to do with the question.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what information the commissioners have as to the number of clergy whose stipends are topped up by other organisations or employers in respect of chaplaincies and other appointments; and if he will make a statement.

Approximately 1,200 out of the 8,300 vicars and rectors receive part of their stipends in part-time chaplaincies and similar appointments.

I thank my hon. Friend for revealing the number of clergymen who receive additions to their stipends. Can he give information and details about the amount that is given to top up the £7,000 stipends for those clergymen who go into schools, or should be encouraged to do so, to check whether religious education is being properly taught and whether the morning assembly is being carried out? Does that form part of the duties of the clergy, or should it be part of their duties under the Education Act 1944?

I must not mislead my hon. Friend. The figures that I gave were with part-time earnings taken into account, and not additional.

Given the importance of the laity's contribution to the level of the clergy's salaries, is it not a little rich for the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) to ask such questions when, before Christmas, he was asking us to take strike action to reduce the amount of money available to the Church?

I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) needs any protection from me for any statements that he makes in the country or in the House.

asked the Minister for the Arts what steps he is taking to promote the preservation of the nation's industrial archaeological heritage.

My responsibility for the industrial archaeological heritage relates primarily to museums and their collections. My arts budget supports the relevant national museums, the local museum purchase and conservation grant funds, and the national heritage memorial fund. While I encourage worthwhile industrial heritage preservation projects, the resources devoted to these by the institutions from within their grants are largely matters for their judgment.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, and I declare an interest. Does he agree that the Science museum and the National railway museum have a vital role to play in preserving the nation's industrial archaeology and that they value their independent status, which is a source of confidence to them? Will my right hon. Friend therefore confirm that he has no plans to change the system whereby each museum has its own parliamentary Vote?

I acknowledge that my hon. Friend has a very close interest not only in the Science museum but in the National railway museum. I know the important role that he plays in their affairs. I am glad that the Science museum spends a considerable amount of its annual purchase grant on industrial items. As for the last part of my hon. Friend's question, a written statement will be published at 3.30 this afternoon.

asked the Minister for the Arts what is the present level of business sponsorship for the arts.

The Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts estimates the figure at about £20 million.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the level of business sponsorship could be substantially increased if companies were allowed, along the lines of the American model, to deduct their donations to charity up to an agreed limit of pre-tax profits? Does he further agree that that would be cost effective, because, for each pound of tax revenue forgone, expenditure on the arts would increase by almost £3?

It is important to acknowledge the significant contribution that the business sponsorship incentive scheme has made to increasing the amount of money for the arts in the last 15 or 16 months. It now amounts to £6·7 million. That is a great deal of additional money for the arts, and I have increased the amount in the financial budget for the forthcoming year. My hon. Friend knows that a number of positive tax changes have been made in the last few years. They are designed to encourage additional business sponsorship of the arts, and I hope that there will be further improvements. My hon. Friend's specific question ought to be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I thank the Minister for looking further into the question raised by the hon. Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo). Will he tell the House how many applications, under the business sponsorship incentive scheme, were turned down last year because it had run out of money?

The scheme has not run out of money. It is continuing throughout this financial year. I have already announced that there will be an increase in the taxpayers' investment in the scheme to the tune of £1·75 million in the coming financial year.

Since business sponsorship has tragically failed to raise the small sum of money needed to keep the Sadler's Wells theatre open, what plans has my right hon. Friend for finding the £250,000 that would save the nation from a major cultural disaster?

I acknowledge the importance of my right hon. Friend's question, and I am glad to be able to tell the House that the Arts Council has made an announcement on that important matter today. It has called a meeting with Sadler's Wells and the three companies which regularly use the theatre to discuss a possible solution. That would involve the Arts Council giving the companies additional funds to enable them to pay an economic rent for the theatre. I hope and believe that in that way the theatre can be kept open.

Is the Minister aware that the figure of £20 million for business sponsorship is only an estimate, and I believe that it is far less than that? Will he take steps to ensure that the recording of business sponsorship money for the arts is more accurate than the present guesstimates, otherwise a misleading impression will be given?

I take the hon. Gentleman's point. In fact, I suspect that that is a conservative estimate. We work in conjunction with the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts, which exists to encourage the sponsorship of arts organisations by business. I accept that it is difficult to put a precise figure on it. It is a guesstimate.

I strongly endorse the thoughts offered by my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo), but, in the meantime, will my right hon. Friend look at some of the anomolies in the present business sponsorship tax regime? In particular, will he consider whether sponsorship of capital projects could be made tax-deductible, as is sponsorship of revenue projects? Will he ensure that the rules governing the provision of entertainment facilities at sponsored events are both sensible and sensibly administered?

I know that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in finding ways in which we can encourage further sponsorship and support for the arts. I know that some of those ideas have been put forward by ABSA and submitted to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. At the end of the day it is for him to decide what further improvements he can introduce.

asked the Minister for the Arts whether he anticipates there being as much local arts activity after the abolition of the Greater London council and the metropolitan county councils as before.

Genuinely local arts activity is a matter in which local authorities should play the leading part. The Government had agreed to take on a larger share of arts funding generally, following abolition, but central and local funds are both required if the amount and quality of arts activity are to be maintained.

I accept what the Minister says about the need for partnership, but without backing from regional arts associations' funds, surely there is no way in which the local authorities can make that up? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra believes itself to be under threat, and that, seven weeks away from abolition, there is no joint committee to administer the situation in West Yorkshire? Surely something must be done to ensure that the whole panoply of arts activities in the regions are better supported than they are.

It is important to note that the Government have taken on considerable additional responsibilities on behalf of the taxpayer and have thus relieved local authorities of burdens in the GLC and metropolitan areas to the tune of £43 million of additional taxpayers' money. We are not looking to an enormous sum in successor authority support for local arts activities. It is up to them to demonstrate the interest that they wish to show in their local arts activities.

As abolition might have affected Sadler's Wells, should we not all rejoice at the Arts Council's decision to try to find more funds to save Sadler's Wells and warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on having used his influence to bring that about?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is, of course, principally the responsibility of the Arts Council to find a satisfactory solution. I am glad that it is to have this important meeting on Friday 14 February. I believe that it is moving towards a solution which will enable the theatre to remain open.

Is not it nonsense to dwell on the marvellous news about Sadler's Wells when almost every theatre and concert hall throughout the land is in a state of acute crisis? Is not the reason for that the right hon. Gentleman's failure to replace local authorities' funds? Is it not a bit of a sick joke to suggest that money could be found by the local authorities, which, when they try to spend it, are rate capped, and, when they are not rate capped, are abolished?

It is unbelievable that the hon. Gentleman has managed to conjure up the most astonishing language to describe the fact that the Government have produced £43 million of additional money to support the arts in the GLC and metropolitan areas. I do not think that it is unreasonable to look to successor authorities, which already spend £7 billion, to play their small part in sharing in the sponsorship and support of arts activities.

asked the Minister for the Arts what discussions he has had with local authorities on efficiency savings in the library service.

Management of the library service is a direct responsibility of local authorities, but I am concerned that full value should be obtained from the resources allocated to it. With this aim in mind, I commissioned studies of methods of costing library services and assessing their performance, which I hope will help local authorities to manage these services and monitor their effectiveness.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many of our libraries are located on prime sites in the community? Will he urge local authorities to explore the potential for partnership development schemes with the private sector? That will release resources which will make our already excellent library service even better for its customers.

In the past few weeks I have visited a number of exceptional libraries, including Sutton, Hillingdon, and even some in my county. I have been impressed by the enterprise of a number of those libraries in providing additional services above the basic book loan service. That helps to improve the overall facilities available to the public in those areas.