asked the Paymaster General how many jobs he estimates the proposed clean-up campaign will create.

asked the Paymaster General if street cleaning is presently included within the framework of the community programme.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has recently announced a new environmental improvement initiative which it is estimated will initially provide work for up to 5,000 long-term unemployed people through the community programme together with additional opportunities for volunteers. A very wide range of worthwhile activities can be undertaken through the programme provided they involve work which would not otherwise be done and bring practical benefits to the community.

I am sure that those who are unemployed will be grateful for the opportunity to take up work. However, does this scheme not show how much out of touch the Prime Minister is with the reality of what is happening in Britain and that the opportunity should have been taken to restore some civic pride in Britain and give local authorities the resources to clean up their own streets?

I think that the scheme as envisaged, details of which will be announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment in due course, contemplates a much wider sphere of activities than would be confined within local authority activities.

Is the Paymaster General aware that 155,000 jobs have been lost in local government in the manual sector, many of them street cleaners and the like? Rather than give youngsters skivvying jobs, would it not be a good thing to give rate support grant back to local government and let it do the job properly?

As I have just explained, the work planned for the initiative does not, to a large extent, fall within the scope of local authorities. The proposals will be wide ranging in their effect and I believe that they will have the wide and strong support of the vast majority of the people of this country.

When my hon. Friend helps to promote this excellent campaign, may we also ask that the resources be directed to the areas where unemployment is at its highest, such as the coastal areas of the west country, and that we look to that as well as to the over-employed south-east?

I thank my hon. Friend for his support. It will be a matter on which potential sponsors of individual projects within the overall programme can approach the board with their proposals. I am sure that they will receive sympathetic consideration.

Is the Minister aware that there are 331,000 people under the age of 25 who have been unemployed for over one year? Will he give precedence to those people when he is looking at applicants for community employment?

The community programme is specifically designed to help the long-term unemployed. Therefore, they will receive favourable treatment in that context.

Is the Minister aware that everyone in the country, except it seems the Prime Minister, is aware that our streets have been becoming dirtier and tattier for many years because of the squeeze on local authority expenditure and privatisation, which has reduced the number of people who are cleaning our streets? The answer is not to take on a trendy business man to take on more and more unemployed people at very low rates of pay and then dump them back into unemployment, but to give more money to local authorities to employ people on a permanent basis to do the job properly and reduce the numbers who are unemployed.

The hon. Lady is wrong. Local authority spending needs are fully taken into account in setting the level of expenditure for rate support grant purposes. The intention of the programme is not to replace the activities of local authorities as regards their refuse and litter collection. That remains their duty, and they will continue to have sufficient resources to carry that out. Nor will there be substitution for existing jobs under the community programme, the rules of which are specifically designed to avoid that.

How long will the schemes last, and how will the clean-up campaign work with local government? Will it be an integral part of local government responsibility to find areas for these people to clean, or will the process be completely separate?

The hon. Gentleman will need to await the full details of the scheme from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. However, there is no reason why local authorities should not also become involved in the project.

asked the Paymaster General if he has any plans to see the Trades Union Congress to discuss industrial relations.

I have no plans at present to meet the Trades Union Congress to discuss industrial relations.

Why is it that neither the Secretary of State for Employment nor the Paymaster General will meet the TUC, yet they will meet any reactionary small employer? Why will they not meet the representatives of employees? Does it mean that the Government's policy is one of confrontation rather than consultation?

The hon. Gentleman will agree that we have the best industrial relations that we have had for generations. The figures for the past 12 months show that the number of hours lost through industrial disputes is the lowest we have known for 24 years, and that the total number of strikes is the lowest for 50 years.

If in the distant future my right hon. and learned Friend meets representatives of the TUC, will he discuss with them the adequacy of the safeguards for trade union members who wish to contract out of the political levy? Will he make it clear that if the undertakings given previously are not fulfilled the Government will not hesitate to change the law and move to contracting in rather than contracting out?

We believe that members of trade unions have an undoubted right not to pay a contribution to a political fund if they do not wish to do so. We trust that the unions, some of whom have been less than frank with their members in their recent campaigns on political funds, will now carry out their obligations and make it clear to members that they do not have to pay for party political activities of which they do not approve.

What about the right of working people to belong to a trade union? Is the Paymaster General aware that if he met the TUC it would express to him its strong opposition to the way in which people are being penalised at GCHQ for the mere crime of wanting to belong to a trade union? Why have the Government taken that democratic right away from our fellow citizens?

I think that about 99 per cent. of employees at GCHQ have accepted the new conditions of service. The people who were recently disciplined in accordance with the Civil Service code originally undertook to accept those conditions and to renounce trade union membership, but went back on that undertaking.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that industrial relations are now generally so good in our factories and that there are so few strikes that industrial workers can often set a good example to other professions with a less good record, such as the National Union of Teachers?

I agree. Those industrial workers would be well advised to listen to the speeches of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who continues to reiterate the Labour party's determination to repeal all of what he describes as Tory anti-trade union laws.

Will the Paymaster General accept that more working days have been lost during this Government's period of office than during a comparable period under the Labour Government? I repeat that we shall repeal all that legislation. If the Paymaster General is so concerned about individual rights, why does he not reconsider his decision not to consult the TUC about the right of employees to belong to a trade union, the right of the printers to redundancy payments and the right to return to work when one has been found innocent, as is the case with the miners in the light of the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service decision?

It seems that the Labour movement is having difficulty in describing what it is prepared to draw up as the individual rights of trade union members. I shall wait for some further formulation of the Labour party proposals before I comment on what the hon. Gentleman says. He is clear that he will repeal all the legislation and deny people the access to the courts that we have provided when they are aggrieved by union misconduct.

asked the Paymaster General what proportion of the funds allocated to the two year YTS programme will be used to assist young people to obtain skills and qualifications in engineering and science.

About one-third of all entrants to YTS in 1985–86 joined schemes covering engineering and science. We are very conscious of the need for sufficient numbers of young people to be trained to secure the future of these vital sectors.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. As science and engineering are so vital to the British economy, as there is a shortage of potential employees with these skills, and as there are so many fine young people on the YTS who would benefit from science and engineering training, will he ensure that the expenditure on training in these skills is at least maintained, and possibly enhanced?

I welcome my hon. Friend's question. It gives me an opportunity to pay a warm tribute to him for the interest that he shows in the YTS in general and in his constituency in particular. He has a valid point. We find the figures that I gave in answer to the substantive question very encouraging.

Have the Government not done immense harm to engineering and science by reducing the moneys available to such institutions as Bradford university and by presiding over the decimation of engineering apprenticeships?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman had framed his supplementary question before hearing my answer to the substantive question. The figure that I gave was extremely encouraging, and the trend shown by the figure is strengthening and developing all the time.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the experience of many of the admirable experiments that he has been carrying out shows that many young people who did not have formal qualifications from school have shown themselves remarkably adept at learning the skills needed in our modern society? Will he also confirm that worrying skill shortages are developing? Will he assure us that the YTS is being used imaginatively to bridge those two concepts?

I give my hon. Friend precisely that assurance. It is one of the main aims of industry in 1986 that we should, wherever possible, match the skill shortages to those people coming off the YTS. Having seen the number of places that are available and the take-up, which exceeds 90 per cent., we are very encouraged.

If the Minister is genuinely interested in figures, has he seen the estimate by the Engineering Industry Training Board that we shall be short of 4,000 apprenticeships a year in engineering? Has he seen the figures given by Institute of Manpower Studies, which show that there is a lower level of employees in manufacturing industry in training than ever before? In 1967, 5·5 per cent. of employees were in training; in 1982 the figure was 3·2 per cent., and now in 1985, only 2 per cent. That means that there are only 112,000 young people in training in the whole of manufacturing industry. Is this not a condemnation of the Government's policies, and is it not time to have a comprehensive, compulsory training programme to get our country back to the training skills that it needs?

Why does the hon. Gentleman refer to a training hoard that is compulsory? I cannot understand the connection between it and his question, because the training board that he mentioned is statutory, and is remaining.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that for the latest period for which statistics are available 71 per cent. of the YTS leavers in my constituency have gone into work and that one of the reasons for this great success is the emphasis on technology and science?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's question. Obviously we are looking forward to the time when the two-year YTS increases the percentage of people who find full-time employment.

asked the Paymaster General if he will make a statement on the reorganisation of the Manpower Services Commission.

The commission is reorganising in order to improve the management and delivery of our policies and programmes. From 1 July it will have three operating groups. These will be the employment and enterprise group, the vocational education and training group, and the skills training agency. They will be hacked by two support groups providing personnel, finance and management services.

Is the Paymaster General aware of the concern that is felt about their future by the skills training agency and the skill training centres, because the guarantee that was given to them terminates this year? Will the Paymaster General assure us that there will be no decrease in the number of skill training centres? May we also be assured that there will be a future for the centres? Furthermore, is the Paymaster General aware of the problems, emanating from his Department, of local members of the Manpower Services Commission because insufficient information is being made available to local organisations, such as Age Concern?

There are two distinct points in the hon. Gentleman's question. First, skillcentres have been put on a trading account basis, which we believe will give management the incentive that it requires and to which it will respond in order to gear its training to the requirements of the labour market. The total amount of adult training that we are able to give and the number of people who are receiving adult training with Government assistance have been increasing. As to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, we are disseminating as much information as we can about all the Government's policies relating to job training and job opportunities. I commend to the hon. Gentleman and to Age Concern "Action for Jobs". That publication sets out very clearly the full range of the Government's measures on enterprise and employment.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that Governments can do only so much? It is amazing that this very morning I received a letter from the wife of a constituent. He is a man with 35 years' experience, but because he is over the age of 52 the firm to which he applied for a job would not take him on, although it had vacancies. It is not just a matter of young people. Firms sometimes need to be encouraged to recognise that older people need job opportunities as well. There is nonsense about all this somewhere.

I find that case as startling and disappointing as does my hon. Friend. Some of the people who are experiencing the greatest difficulty in our society are those who are above the age of 50 who have suffered redundancy because of industrial change. I am glad to say that our network of job clubs is expanding. It is providing jobs for about two-thirds of the people who join them, because they are motivated to seek work. I am glad to say that job clubs achieve surprising success for many of the older workers who approach them.

Will the Paymaster General ensure the appointment to these reorganised manpower quangos of some of those who are currently registered as unemployed, or who have recently become unemployed, so that these committees may learn at first hand about the problems that they are trying to tackle and so that the Conservative party may practise the supremacy of the consumer, which it so frequently preaches?

I hasten to add that these are not new committees. This is a reorganisation of the Civil Service staff of the Manpower Services Commission to enable the commission to be in an even better position than it is in at the moment to deliver the prgrammes which we have drawn up. Certainly there is a growth of employment within the MSC because of the emphasis that we are placing on its work, but I am glad to say that it is the general economy that is contributing each quarter to the continuing additional growth and additional new jobs that we are now experiencing.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the MSC programme dovetails properly with existing training programmes for skilled employees? I have in mind that in some big cities, such as Leicester, there is a desperate shortage of knitters and overlockers. They need a five-year training course. Will my right hon. and learned Friend satisfy himself that the MSC two-year programme, which is to be welcomed, dovetails effectively with this training?

I very much hope that the MSC arranges matters in such a way that it does. I know about the particular problem in Leicester, where employers are unable to get the skilled and trained staff that they require. I know, too, that the MSC has been discussing with local employers how the knitting industry in particular can remedy that deficiency.

Does the Paymaster General realise that his reply about the skillcentres adjusting themselves to the requirements of the labour market is much too facile? Does he not realise that, in order to change courses, very often one needs to train the trainers in the first place, or to go out and obtain different trainers? New equipment may be needed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is putting that on a commerical basis. Where will the funds come from to do such gearing as a result of commercial demand? The Minister's hon. Friend has just said that sometimes courses need more time than they are given.

It is not a commercial objective that one has in mind, except to the extent that training in skills is designed to fit people with the qualifications they require to find jobs that might be vacant in the local industry. If the hon. Gentleman continues to visit skillcentres, as I am sure he does—I visit them from time to time—he will find that they are responding to the challenge of changing the pattern of their employment and are finding exciting new tasks to perform for local industry in providing the skill shortages.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many Conservative Members will applaud his new proposals for reverse discrimination in favour of young blacks in inner city areas? When my right hon. and learned Friend next adopts some of the more controversial measures of the Labour party, however, will he give us a little more notice so that we may loyally adapt our rhetoric to support him.

My hon. Friend is adopting rhetoric which I have never used. If he moves on from his initial indignation to study what I said in Birmingham yesterday, he will find that we were describing a policy of positive action to improve the employment possibilities in the district of Handsworth. The district of Handsworth has a multiracial population. Therefore, any success in our policies will have a multiracial effect. I am sure that my hon. Friend would not disapprove of that.

Will the Paymaster General tell the House whether extra funds will be made available to the MSC to enable it to carry out the various functions outlined in its new corporate plan? For instance, will extra funds be made available to assist the long-term unemployed, hundreds of thousands of whom are aged over 50 years? Specifically, will additional funds be made available for the MSC's programme of training and retraining, which is so essential?

Since the Conservative party has been in government the MSC has received an enormous increase in the funds available to it for its work in the employment field. The budget of the MSC is continuing to grow. It is being expanded expressly, among other things, for the benefit of the restart programme, which will bring individual help to all the long-term unemployed in this country.

asked the Paymaster General whether he has any plans to increase the present range of measures available to stimulate the creation of employment in the Alnwick and Amble area.

We have no plans at present to increase the considerable range of measures available to stimulate the creation of employment in the Alnwick and Amble area. We are convinced that the new package of measures announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement will significantly benefit Alnwick and Amble as well as the rest of country by accelerating the growth of enterprise, boosting employment opportunities for the young and helping the long-term unemployed find work.

As the considerable range of measures to which the hon. Gentleman referred excludes all those available exclusively in development areas, will he use the figures available to his Department to convince the Department of Trade and Industry that, as prophesied, the unemployment rate in the Alnwick and Amble area has remained as high as and often higher than that in development areas and that further measures, including access to European funds, are clearly necessary in that unemployment black spot?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman understands that a wide range of criteria, including the unemployment rate, industrial and occupational structures and changes in the labour supply, are taken into account in deciding on the designation of assisted areas. I draw to the hon. Gentleman's attention a number of measures that are applicable in his constituency—the YTS, the community programme, the enterprise allowance scheme, the job release scheme and the young workers scheme. All those schemes are detailed in our "Action for Jobs" booklet. The hon. Gentleman may also like to know that the restart programme began in his area yesterday.

asked the Paymaster General what is the latest estimate of the number of tourists from the United States of America in the current year; and how this figure compares with 1985.

Figures for the international passenger survey are available only for the first quarter of 1986 and show an increase in the number of visitors from North America of 15 per cent. We have no precise details as to the levels of American tourism subsequently. The British Tourist Authority, from its contacts with the industry, has advised that, if present levels continue throughout the year, there may be a reduction of up to 15 per cent., but there are signs of an early upturn in business and the BTA is hopeful that over the year as a whole last year's record level of American visitors may be maintained.

If the figure of 15 per cent. is correct, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it will mean that this year the British tourist industry will lose about £150 million? Was it not clear in retrospect that the Government's involvement in the American bombing of Libya would inevitably lead to retaliation and to a loss of trade and jobs in this country? If the hon. Gentleman finds that loss acceptable, will he explain why the Government reject economic measures against South Africa, precisely because jobs will he lost in this country?

The hon. Gentleman may have framed his supplementary question before he heard my answer. I made it clear in the latter part of my answer to the substantive question that we hope—British Airways has made this point—that by the end of the year there will be a recovery in the number of American visitors. To put the whole matter into perspective, it is important for the hon. Gentleman to accept that even if the 15 per cent. decrease in the number of visitors coming to the United Kingdom were to he the worst case, it would mean a drop of only 3 per cent. in real spending in the tourism sector.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the shortage of American visitors to this country has little to do with the tear of terrorism but might have something to do with the not very satisfactory weather which we have from time to time? Does he agree that, above all, it is to do with the high value of the pound compared with the dollar? Will my hon. Friend make representations to hotels in London and other places to bring down their prices, because they are outrageously high?

My hon. Friend makes a number of points. First, I should have thought that no American ever came to this country because of our climate. I think that we can dispense quickly with that reason. [Interruption.] There may have been an exception or two this year, but in normal circumstances the Americans certainly do not come because of our climate. Secondly, I think that the exchange rate is a factor. Thirdly, I believe that many people who have studied this subject in the past few weeks have got it wrong, in that they have assumed that the problem lies with the fact that a number of Americans are worried about whether the destination is safe. I suggest that they are more concerned about travelling on the aeroplanes than about safe destinations.

If the hon. Gentleman is so confident about the recovery from the reduction in the number of American tourists, will he explain why the Prime Minister grovelled on American television, begging American tourists to come here?

I must apologise to the hon. Lady because I do not think that I heard correctly the last part of her question. She may have been saying that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a statement on her way to the Tokyo summit to the effect that Britain was a safe destination. I should have thought that the hon. Lady and her right hon. and hon. Friends would support that. Certainly my right hon. Friend's statement helped to dispel the fears in the minds of some people who were concerned about coming to the United Kingdom.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the reduced figure for tourists is due to Labour propaganda, which plays into the Libyans' hands? Nationally and internationally, Labour supporters are the main contributors in stopping American tourists from coming to this country. They are as much at fault as the Libyans.

Certainly some of the statements by Labour party spokesmen on this matter have not helped one iota. In addition, they have done nothing to assist our campaign with the British Tourist Authority in the United States and they take every opportunity they can to rubbish tourism generally.

Does my hon. Friend agree that we should do everything we can to persuade the Americans that we are serious about tourism in this country? Does my hon. Friend agree that, to that end, the decision of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to cancel the heli-link between Gatwick and Heathrow does nothing to promote the interests of tourism?

I must apologise to my hon. Friend about that. It is not a matter for me, but I shall certainly draw those remarks to my right hon. Friend's attention.

asked the Paymaster General what proportion of those registered as unemployed find work within the first six months; and if he will give details of the assistance being given by his Department to the long-term unemployed.

In 1985 around two thirds of those becoming unemployed left the unemployment count within six months. Under our restart programme everyone who has been unemployed for more than a year will now be contacted with an offer of positive help towards employment.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that, while we may tend to think of the unemployed as a static and unchanging group, 25 per cent. find jobs within four weeks, and 36 per cent. within six weeks, while half of them do so within three months and 82 per cent. find jobs within a year? Are we not therefore forced to the conclusion that among the long-term unemployed there must be at least an element that constitutes the black economy? Will my hon. Friend tell us the result of the pilot scheme that was carried out on the long-term unemployed in selected areas?

My hon. Friend is right in the facts that he gave to the House. With regard to restart pilot schemes, the fact that we have decided to extend them nationally speaks for itself. The House might also be interested to know that as a result of the trends to which my hon. Friend has referred about 30,000 people in this country get a job every working day.

Is the Minister aware that the assistance given to the long-term unemployed is hopelessly inadequate and that this probably reflects the Government's real attitude toward them, as distinct from the rhetoric of the Secretary of State? Although this assistance should be increased, is he aware that the real hope to be given to them is to provide them with the prospects of jobs? What is the Minister doing about that?

The right hon. Gentleman is wrong. May I refer him to our community programme, which is our main programme for the unemployed. It is being doubled in size. With regard to our restart programme, it is extending nationally and more than 90 per cent. of those interviewed have been given a positive offer towards employment. That demonstrates our commitment to the long-term unemployed.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the restart programme, which will do everything possible to help the long-term unemployed. Because of the great interest that it has aroused, may I ask the Minister to publish the results of the scheme as quickly and as widely as possible?

I will do what I can to assist my hon. Friend. It is probably too soon to give a complete summary of the effect of the scheme so far. Suffice it to say that it is the most substantial effort that has ever been made in this country to help long-term unemployed people, who will benefit considerably from the schemes.

Can the Minister help the House in the confusion over some of his replies? In an earlier answer he said that about 16 per cent. of those on job restart schemes had been offered something. The Minister has also mentioned the figure of 90 per cent. The Paymaster General, in a speech to the Institute of Directors, said that of all those on restart programmes, 90 per cent. are offered jobs. This does not seem to be borne out by the facts. Is this not another example of rhetoric racing ahead of the facts?

I must repeat to the hon. Gentleman that more than 90 per cent. of those who have been interviewed so far have been given some sort of offer under the restart programme. This can cover a wide range of activities, including a place on the community programme, or a training programme. In Crawley, which was one of the pilot areas, the hon. Gentleman might like to know that a third of those who were interviewed were offered a job vacancy.

asked the Paymaster General what is his estimate of the number of the current year's YTS leavers who will not find full-time employment.

We do not predict or estimate results in advance and it would be wrong to do so, but survey results covering those who left YTS between April and December 1985 show that around 60 per cent. had found employment and some two thirds had entered work, further education or further training.

Is the Minister aware of the depth of real concern among parents, the youth of the country and the careers service about the lack of jobs for those youngsters who complete the YTS scheme? Will he tell the House exactly what the Government intend to do in the immediate future to provide real jobs for all our youngsters?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would accept that no one, or no party, has a monopoly of concern about these youngsters who cannot find jobs immediately. That is precisely why we have introduced the new workers scheme. As part of the restart scheme under the action for jobs programme, we are of course very anxious to help these people.

Is my hon. Friend aware that not all of us read the Paymaster General's Birmingham speech yesterday with liver-tinted spectacles and that some of us see much good sense in enabling those who have learnt skills on Government training schemes to put them into effect in a practical and commercial setting?

I am sorry that my hon. and learned Friend did not have the opportunity to read the newspaper reports of the speech made yesterday by my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General. However, if he had read them, he would no doubt have been impressed, as a whole new world would have been opened up to him.

asked the Paymaster General what is the total number of unemployed in the United Kingdom; and how many of them have been unemployed for more than 12 months, two years and three years, respectively.

On 10 April 1986, the latest date for which figures are available, there were 3,325,000 unemployed claimants in the United Kingdom. Of these, 1,357,000 had been unemployed for over one year, 845,000 for over two years and 567,000 for over three years.

Will the Paymaster General acknowledge that the appalling unemployment figures, which have grown remorselessly since the Conservative party took office, are a disgrace to a civilised society? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept the suggestion of the Employment Committee that those who have been out of work for more than three years should be offered a job for 12 months? The chairman of the Manpower Services Commission has accepted that as a feasible proposition. Will the Paymaster General give some concrete help to those 560,000 people who have been out of work for more than three years?

I accept that the figures show that we must continue the pace of new job creation, if possible at an accelerated rate, in order to get on top of the demographic pressures, which mean that all the time more young people and women are entering the labour market. The hon. Gentleman will know that there has been an increase in the total number of jobs in every quarter since 1983. We expect that to continue, and we also expect our record to continue to be better than that for the rest of the EEC. That is obviously the Government's main effort at present.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in my constituency, which has above average unemployment at almost 15 per cent., one of our biggest problems is the recruitment of labour? Is it not ironic that that should be the case when 3·3 million people are classified as claiming unemployment benefit, even though we know that many of them are not genuinely unemployed? Has my right hon. and learned Friend experienced similar labour shortages in his constituency?

I suspect that the situation in my constituency is rather similar to that in the constituency of my hon. Friend. However, under our restart programme, we shall be approaching each of the 1·4 million people who are registered with us as being long-term unemployed. We shall be able to steer them towards the growing number of job vacancies that are notified to us, as well as towards training and a whole variety of other measures designed to get them back into work. Of course, if someone is not genuinely available for work, he should not be receiving benefit and he should not he registered as unemployed. We shall seek to ensure that that is so.

Will the Paymaster General now revise the travel-to-work area boundaries in mining communities such as mine, where there has been a rapid growth in unemployment as a result of the savage pit closure programme?

The south Yorkshire area — [Interruption.] The west Yorkshire has been very badly affected by the recent inevitable changes in the coal industry. Obviously that area will benefit in particular from the programme of help that we set out in "Action for Jobs", and from the sort of support that we are about to offer through the restart programme.

asked the Paymaster General how many new businesses have been started under the auspices of the enterprise agencies scheme.

As regards the number of businesses assisted by local enterprise agencies, survey information collected on behalf of Business in the Community in May 1985 indicated that 83 agencies replying to a question on this had helped 8,269 new businesses. That survey is being repeated this year, funded by my Department, and it is hoped that more comprehensive information may become available.

May I thank my hon. Friend for his recent visit to Lincoln and for his great encouragement of our enterprise agency? Does he accept that the figures that he has given show that enterprise agencies encourage jobs? During my hon. Friend's visit to Lincoln, he saw how a derelict building had been converted by the enterprise agency, using the community programme, in order to provide start-up units for new businesses. As there are thousands of derelict buildings around the country, could not that idea be developed further for the creation of new businesses and jobs?

I was very impressed when I had the opportunity to visit my hon. Friend's constituency and see what his local enterprise agency was doing, particularly with the innovation centre that I had the privilege to open. I think that he is absolutely right. We have perhaps learnt our lesson in the last few years in that it is a little silly to look for purpose-built premises of a certain size. We should rather be trying to look for space that is, say, little more than a garage space, often in a derelict building, to convert to the appropriate use so as to give the people whom we are seeking to encourage the first foot on the rung of the ladder of enterprise.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 June.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.

Has my right hon. Friend had time today to read the article in the Daily Telegraph by Norman Stone, Professor of Modern History at Oxford, pointing out that sanctions have never yet succeeded in altering the domestic policies of any country? Will she reaffirm her Government's commitment to an early ending to apartheid and to the economic and political advancement of all races in South Africa, and will she resist any measures that destroy the jobs and living standards of black people in that country and the jobs of thousands of people in this country?

I gladly confirm what my hon. Friend has said. We seek an early end to apartheid and the advancement of all races in the political government of South Africa, and we seek, further, the suspension of violence on all sides in return for negotiations to achieve the end defined by my hon. Friend.

May I first congratulate the Prime Minister on wisely changing course and agreeing to the meeting between the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and Mr. Oliver Tambo. May I go on to assure her that, if she follows the logic of that decision and decides to stand out against the extreme Right-wing pressure on her Back Benches, the Opposition will support that change of course. If she continues either to prevaricate about sanctions or to pretend, as she did a moment ago, that they will not change the policy of the regime in Pretoria, how does she propose to bring about a change in South Africa?

May I point out that my hon. Friend's purpose in seeing Mr. Tambo will be to tell him that suspension of violence on all sides is essential to peaceful change in South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman talks about change of course. He has changed course perhaps more than anyone else. As a Minister of State at the Foreign Office, he said:

"I do not believe that a policy of general economic sanctions would be in the interests either of the British people or of South Africa."—[Official Report, 7 July 1976; Vol. 914, c. 1354.]

I am grateful and flattered by the Prime Minister's interest. On that exact point, does she understand that the sanctions that will be most effective are not general economic sanctions but financial sanctions? Let me therefore ask a specific question. If the international community loses faith in the South African economy and withdraws capital from South Africa, will she and the Chancellor bolster up the Pretoria regime by rescheduling South African debts?

I gather from the right hon. Gentleman that he is against general economic sanctions against South Africa. I am grateful to him for making his position clear. We, too, are against general economic sanctions, as I have made clear on many occasions. We have carried out the measures that I indicated last time. We shall now consider the position with our EEC and Commonwealth partners.

We are all used to the combination of prevarication and bluster that—[Interruption.]

Order.

On this occasion—[Interruption.]

Order. These interruptions take up time.

On this occasion, the Prime Minister's technique does more than its usual damage to her electoral prospects. Does she not realise that by prevaricating about the racist regime in South Africa she is giving it comfort and support and encouraging its continuation?

The right hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense in his usual blustering fashion. Moreover, he knows that the debts are not Government to Government, but commercial.

Bearing in mind the old saying that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, will my right hon. Friend tell those members of the Commonwealth, such as Zimbabwe, to put their own houses in order before calling for sanctions against South Africa?

The system of apartheid must end, and I do not believe that general economic sanctions would help it to end. They would he highly damaging, both to black interests in South Africa and to employment in this country. In the end, there will have to be negotiations between the South African Government and black South Africans, and we should keep our eye on that purpose and do everything possible to achieve it.

Does the right hon. Lady agree that the advantage of the suggestion in the report of the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group that intercontinental air links with South Africa should cease is that that is specific and easily policed? Is she further aware that gesture politics, which the right hon. Lady so despises, also include the gesture of doing nothing or being seen to he dragging one's feet—the most impossible posture of all for any Government?

To do anything about air links would be very damaging, not least to some 800,000 people in South Africa who have the right to come to this country. I note that the right hon. Gentleman does not share the views of his right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen), who in an article on 24 March 1985 said:

"Total or even selective trade sanctions will not succeed."

While none of us expects my right hon. Friend to reveal in advance the proposals that she will put to her colleagues in The Hague this week, can she assure us that nothing that she does there will be at variance with the policies and the principles that she has described and hitherto defended resolutely in this House?

I shall do my level best at the European economic summit, as at the Commonwealth conference, to bring about change in South Africa through a process of negotiation between the Government of South Africa and full representation of the black population, in the absence and suspension of violence.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 June.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

As NACODs is holding its annual conference this week, may I remind the right hon. Lady that at last year's conference members of the association still believed that she knew what she meant by the use of the word "sacrosanct"? In order to keep the record straight and to maintain the international regard for the integrity of her office, does she now accept that she, her Government and their new knight seriously misled both the House and my association?

No, and the hon. Gentleman knows that.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the many false assumptions about South Africa is that Bishop Tutu speaks exclusively for black Christians, or even the majority of them? Is she aware that while Bishop Tutu has a congregation of less than 150,000, Bishop Makoena of the Independent Reformed Church has a following of more than 4·5 million? Is it not essential that any steps that we take against South Africa have the effect of supporting moderate black leaders such as Bishop Makoena — who is vehemently opposed to sanctions—and not undermining their position?

It is absolutely vital to support moderate leaders in South Africa. It is also vital to support those many industries that have been in the forefront in trying to break down apartheid. To introduce sanctions against them would be to defeat the very people who have been trying to bring about the required change in South Africa.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 June 1986.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

As the Prime Minister has claimed in the House today that sanctions would be highly damaging to British employment levels and has suggested that up to 150,000 jobs in this country might be at risk, how does she square those claims with the fact that when I asked for details of the likely effects on jobs and output in the United Kingdom of different levels of economic measures, sanctions and of the non-imposition of sanctions on South Africa, I was told late last night in a parliamentary answer by the Minister for Trade that

"the information was not available"?

If the hon. Gentleman looks back he will find answers from me about how the figures are calculated. They are calculated by the general value of exports from this country to South Africa and the number of jobs that that would normally be equivalent to.

Have Her Majesty's Government, with other Commonwealth Governments, any contingency plans to deal with the collapse of the economy of Zimbabwe and other neighbours of South Africa in the event of the intensification of sanctions against the Republic of South Africa?

No, Sir. As my hon. Friend is aware, that is a matter that could concern us a great deal, because so much of the imports of Zimbabwe and the other front-line states, and the exports from these countries, have to go by the roads or the rail bridge at Beitbridge between Zimbabwe and South Africa. Any major sanctions would have devastating effects on the future of those countries.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 June 1986.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

As the Prime Minister is a leading voice in the Commonwealth, may I draw her attention to the recent terror bombing incident by the South African Government against three independent African countries, which are also members of the Commonwealth? Other than making a protest, will the Prime Minister tell the House what representations she is making to South Africa regarding compensation? Will there be any retaliatory action against South Africa?

The hon. Gentleman has heard me say in the House before that we replied very sharply indeed to South Africa — [Interruption.]—about those terrible bombing incidents, which were responsible for bringing to an end the effective operation of the Eminent Persons Group. Without those incidents, that group had a chance of getting through to negotiations, with a suspension of violence on all sides.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with Mr. Russell Hopkins, a consultant surgeon recently appointed as the general manager of a hospital in Cardiff, that doctors cannot demand with total honesty more cash for the Health Service until waste has been eliminated?

As my hon. Friend is aware, we are doing our level best to secure the more effective use of resources in the Health Service. Resources have increased enormously under this Government, from £7·75 billion in 1979 to £18·75 billion this year. Last year the efficiency savings amounted to £150 million. Those savings were ploughed hack into the Health Service to secure more treatment for patients.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 June 1986.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Will the Prime Minister accept that the ultimate responsibility for nuclear safety must lie with the elected Government? Is she aware that the two-month delay in the commissioning of Torness announced by the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate is quite inadequate? After Chernobyl, is it not clear that we need a national plan—if not a national emergency force—to cope with such an accident? Would it not be the height of irresponsibility to go ahead with the commissioning of a new power station before the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, the Health and Safety Executive and Government Departments have had the chance to complete their post-Chernobyl reviews?

I was asked an identical question last week. Our Nuclear Installations Inspectorate is one of the best in the world. It has a superlative record. Not long ago some of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues were preferring the AGR to any other type of reactor.

Does my right hon. Friend entertain the hope that the first ministerial contact with Mr. Tambo of the African National Congress will be the precursor to further contact with what is essentially a moderate nationalist movement and its domestic equivalent, the United Democratic Front? Will she and others bear in mind, in their proper exhortations to both sides to renounce violence, the fact that the majority of the violence emanates from the South African security forces?

I have already said that my hon. Friend's main task, when seeing Mr. Tambo tonight, will be to say that there must be a suspension of violence on all sides. That is essential to peaceful change in South Africa, and she will reiterate that most strongly.