asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of British Coal about opencast mining in south Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of British Coal about opencast mining in the Ystradgynlais area in Powys; and if he will make a statement.

I have not recently met the chairman of British Coal to discuss opencast mining.

It was recently reported that the Secretary of State had overruled his inspector concerning a planning application for opencast mining in his own constituency. Will the Secretary of State state precisely his reasons for that? Will he issue a circular containing them, so that local authorities dealing with planning applications for opencast mining may have them for their guidance when deciding upon future applications, whether by British Coal or by private persons?

The reasons were set out in the decision letter. Basically, we had to weigh up the importance of opencast mining to the economy and to the Welsh coal industry—it makes a significant contribution—and the effect of this scheme, especially on the environment, tourism and the local economy. Each case must be decided on its merits.

Will the Secretary of State say whether he is opposed to opencast mining alongside village communities? In my constituency at Upper and Lower Cwmtwrch there are proposals for opencast mining at the Brynhenllys site. Will he reject those proposals?

British Coal has appealed against the refusal of Powys county council to grant planning permission at the site named by the hon. Gentleman. I cannot comment on the merits of the proposal because it is clearly one that I shall have to consider as Secretary of State. The hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot discuss the merits of an individual application.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the strength of feeling about schemes that could continue for years, disfigure the environment and cause considerable nuisance and difficulty for many residents in the borough of Merthyr Tydfil? Will he at least consider that these decisions and proposals can have a long-term effect in terms of attracting industry to and commercial development in the borough? I hope that the right hon. Gentleman takes those aspects into account.

All those matters and their effect on local communities must be considered, but we must also recognise that there is a need for the range of special and high-quality coals which the industry produces. They provide employment opportunities and contribute to the financial profitability of British Coal. All those matters must be considered on an individual-case basis.

Will the Secretary of State not heed the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Coleman) and apply to applications in the valley communities the same criteria as he is applying to the application in his constituency? Does he not think that it is a shame that he made that decision?

It is not a shame that I made that decision. I happen to think that it was right. This is the only one of the cases currently under consideration that has come before me at present. I shall give exactly the same detailed consideration to all these cases.

Does the Secretary of State realise that Labour Members appreciate that there are economic arguments for and against opencast mining and, likewise, important environmental considerations? We are trying to elicit Welsh Office policy. Is it that opencast mining is permissible in any part of Wales other than Pembroke?

The hon. Gentleman started by very fairly weighing up the balance of the issues that must be considered in each case. Only one of the decisions has come before me in the recent past. A number of other cases are being considered by the Department or are likely to come before it in the near future, and we shall consider each on its merits.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress his Department has made in coordinating services for the elderly following his consultation document "A Good Old Age" published in September 1985; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the present arrangements for looking after the elderly in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend announced last Thursday that he has issued a circular inviting local authorities, health authorities and others to submit bids for a grant programme over an eight-year period which will encourage new developments in the care of elderly people in Wales on the lines described in "A Good Old Age".

Will the hon. Gentleman spell out the effective level of co-operation between local and health authorities in Wales during the present cold spell? How many avoidable deaths occurred during this period because of a lack of effective community care?

We have been monitoring the position closely during the cold weather and have no reason to believe that the emergency arrangements of health and local authorities are not working well. We have made additional funds available for voluntary organisations to deal with the short-term crisis for homeless people, and made £25,000 available to Shelter Wales.

Does the hon. Gentleman have other proposals to help the elderly if the weather becomes colder? Does he have any plans to increase the £5 weekly grant to £7 or £10 to help the elderly in the present situation?

That is a matter not for me but for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there has already been a significant contribution to "A Good Old Age" by the Government's quadrupling of spending on heating, including the severe weather payments scheme? Is this record not far superior to that of the Lib-Lab Government?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. In response to "A Good Old Age" we intend to make £1 million available in the current financial year, £2 million in 1988–89 and £4 million in 1989–90, and to extend the scheme for a further eight years. My hon. Friend may recall that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State initially announced in the Welsh Grand Committee a funding programme for three years of £5 million. Our programme over the first three years now amounts to £7 million.

Does the Minister accept that a prerequisite of a reasonable level of service for the elderly is adequate heating? Does he also accept that last week clearly demonstrated that the Government's legislative provision was inadequate? If it had been adequate, there would have been no need for the Government to override their own procedures. What criteria will have to be fulfilled in terms of temperature and weather conditions generally to enable the existing legislative criteria to be set aside?

I am again asked questions that are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. A supplementary pensioner over 65 is receiving £8 a week for heating costs, amounting to £400 a year. For a pensioner over 85 the amount rises to £11 a week, or nearly £600 a year per householder. In addition, there is a £5 heating supplement. Taken together, this package is far more comprehensive than anything Labour had when in office.

Will my hon. Friend take a special look at the circumstances of those, particularly retirement pensioners, who, in addition to their retirement pension, enjoy some small industrial pension or tiny secondary income which deprives them not only of supplementary benefit but of everything that goes with it—for example, rebates and heating allowances?

I take note of what my hon. Friend has said. However, that again is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. I am sure that he. too, will take note of my hon. Friend's point.

During his busy week, will the Minister find time to read an Adjournment debate speech in which the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bruinvels) catalogued the defects that are already showing up in legislation that was passed two years ago with regard to the registration of homes for the elderly? Does the Minister agree with his hon. Friend's conclusion that that legislation is now producing cruelty for the elderly and is fleecing them of their money?

The hon. Gentleman raises matters that are not my responsibility. However, in the matter of residential homes for the elderly, there is a system of regulation which is controlled by the social services departments which register and inspect all private and voluntary homes under the Registered Homes Act 1984.

The House will welcome my hon. Friend's statement that funding will be made available over the eight-year period. Has he any schemes to assist organisations to help elderly people to keep their houses in good repair?

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments about that important initiative. On the matter of schemes to help improve the houses of the elderly that are in disrepair, we are putting up to £200,000 into home improvement agency services through organisations such as Care and Repair Ltd. in each of the next three years to help elderly people improve their homes so that they may live in comfort.

Low income is the chief factor in the pensioners' fight against the cold, and the 40p award aroused contempt throughout Wales. Does the Minister understand that one way of improving services for the elderly is to ensure that there is less violence and intimidation on our housing estates? Why does the Minister not begin a much wider campaign for better safety locks and improved estate lighting? Does he agree that having more policemen on the beat would eliminate muggings of elderly people?

The hon. Gentleman is treading on rather soft ground, because it was a Labour Government who failed to pay the Christmas bonus to pensioners in two of the last five years that they were in office. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, we have already launched our priority estates programme in Wales. It is having considerable success and has recently been expanded.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in secondary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the comparable figure for 1978–79, at constant figures.

In 1985–86 the amount spent per pupil in secondary schools in Wales was £1,158. The equivalent figure for 1978–79 was £1,002.

Does not my hon. Friend's answer make nonsense of Opposition claims of cuts in education expenditure?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In real terms expenditure on education remains broadly constant, while pupil numbers have decreased. Local authority revenue spending on education in Wales, excluding school meals and milk, was slightly higher in 1985–86 than in 1979–80, despite a significant decline in pupil numbers.

Is the Minister aware that expenditure on education increased in 1979–80 as a result of decisions taken by the last Labour Administration, and that in the years between 1980–81 and 1984–85 it went down from £694·3 million to £689·3 million at 1984–85 prices? Those figures relate to local authority net expenditure. If the figure has now increased again, does the Minister agree that that is the result of a last-ditch cynical manoeuvre to try to rescue his extremist and do-not-care party from being annihilated in Wales in the next general election?

I do not have the figures that the hon. Gentleman quoted. However, I do have figures for spending on primary and secondary pupils in cash and in cost terms from 1976–77 to 1985–86. To put it briefly, those figures are on the up all the way.

Will my hon. Friend agree to press upon Clwyd county council in particular that it would have far more to spend per secondary school pupil if only it could muster the political will to tackle the county's massive number of surplus places? If those surplus places remain untackled, they will amount to 23,000 by 1989.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a problem with surplus places in Wales, including Clwyd. We must take hard decisions to eliminate them.

The Minister is complacent and self-congratulatory. May I remind him of the chilling and rather disturbing reports by Her Majesty's Inspectorate in Wales over the past five years? The reports show shabby, dilapidated and damp schools. The schools depend upon parent-teacher associations to raise vital money, the equipment is defective and the texbooks dog-eared. Surely the Minister has reason to believe that the inspectorate is pointing to the real situation in Wales. Why has he boosted funds to public schools by over 1,000 per cent., when our state sector goes short?

We are making substantial capital resources available to local authorities in Wales. Since the introduction of the new capital control system in 1981–82, capital allocations have increased substantially. By next year that increase will be 56 per cent. We can make the capital available to local authorities, but we cannot force them to spend it on schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what additional revenue income he proposes to allocate to Mid Glamorgan area health authority in the forthcoming year.

In 1987–88 Mid Glamorgan district health authority will have a revenue allocation of nearly £125 million, an increase of just under 6 per cent. over the previous year. In addition, it will be able to retain all the revenue income that the authority itself generates.

The Minister will know that at Rhiwfelin hospital yesterday there was a celebration for the 100th birthday of one of the patients. Will he accept that no one who attended that celebration could fail to be impressed by the dedication of the staff to the patients and the homely atmosphere that has been created? Does the Minister agree that some of the elderly cannot be accommodated within the ideas of catering for old age within the community and that there needs to be a continuation of hospital places to accommodate such people? Does he think that the Welsh Office should have another look at the revenue implications in order I o keep hospitals such as Rhiwfelin open so that people may be accommodated with dignity in their great old age?

I should like to associate myself with the hon. Gentleman's comments about the dedicated work of the staff at Rhiwfelin hospital. I understand that the authority is currently engaged in a consultation exercise as to the future of the hospital. Should local agreement not be reached on the matter, it will be referred to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for decision. Some of the points made by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) are precisely the issues my right hon. Friend will take into account when reaching his decision.

Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient resources are being devoted to the care of the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped, given the highly critical report by the Hospital Advisory Service, which said last week that mental illness care in one particular Welsh county was in danger of collapse? Given the history of scandals in Wales concerning care of the mentally ill and mentally handicapped, will the Minister give us assurances that sufficient resources are being given to the area health authorities for such care?

The report to which the hon. Lady refers goes into issues that are way beyond the details of Welsh Office funding. It concerns the role of the local health authority and social services department. However, the cash limit for 1987–88 for the All-Wales Mental Handicap Initiative, subject to parliamentary approval, is likely to be in the region of £10 million to develop new services under the mental handicap strategy.

Is it not apparent to the Minister that, with the marked decline in Health Service facilities and with mass unemployment, a poor environment and all the social factors stemming from those issues, Mid Glamorgan requires not another hospital closure but more adequate funding of its Health Service facilities?

I do not understand how the hon. Gentleman can describe a 33 per cent. growth in recurrent revenue resources to district health authorities between 1978–79 and the present time as a cut in available resources. I also cannot understand how he can describe as a decline a hospital building programme that amounts to almost £490 million at today's prices since 1979. To my way of thinking that is a considerable increase in the hospital and care services available in the Principality.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his current estimate of the percentage of the working population of Wales residing in intermediate areas; and what was the corresponding figure for 1979.

Fifty-one per cent. of the economically active population of Wales live in intermediate areas. The corresponding figure for early 1979 was approximately 13 per cent.

While I accept from the Secretary of State's figures that there has been an expansion in the population of Wales living in intermediate areas, does he agree that at the same time he has drastically reduced from 90 to 38 per cent. the proportion of the working population who live in assisted areas receiving regional development grants? Is he really proud of the fact that from April this year a moratorium of two months will be imposed on the payment of regional development grants? The Government are once again increasing the divide between north and south, with Wales firmly in the north.

On the moratorium, we have been faced with a considerable bulge in the number of applications. There was an overlap on the two schemes and there has been a four-month moratorium under the old scheme and there will be a two-month moratorium under the new scheme. In each of the years 1984, 1985, and 1986 the estimated number of new jobs created following acceptance of regional selective assistance and regional development grants in Wales was well over 12,000. In 1986 the figure was more than 16,000. That compares with the 1979 figure of under 10,000. It is clear that the Government's regional policy is creating more new jobs than were created by that followed by the previous Labour Government.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the insistence of the Treasury on thinking of things solely in 12-month periods is positively unhelpful to his tremendous efforts to create a consistent, long-term development policy for the Principality?

We have had a very considerable bulge in applications. We have been dealing with record figures for jobs created by our regional policy. During 1986 no fewer than 135 offers of assistance totalling more than £37·5 million were expected, promising to create more than 5,400 new jobs and to safeguard 4,000 existing jobs in Wales. These figures show that within the flexibility that we have—and we have a three-year PESC period—we are able to pursue a very effective regional policy, not least in the area of Wales represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer).

Is the Secretary of State aware that the whole of my constituency is an intermediate area and that the Pwllheli employment exchange shows for this month an unemployment rate of 22·2 per cent. compared with an average of 19·1 per cent. for the full development areas throughout Great Britain? Is it not high time that the Secretary of State either looked again at the designation of intermediate areas or came forward with a much more effective regional policy?

Any regional policy must have a degree of consistency. We have had a major review and we should not change the boundaries of areas every few months or every year or so. The hon. Gentleman must recognise that the scope for giving selective assistance in the intermediate areas is considerable. When significant projects have been brought forward, it has nearly always been possible to put together a financial package to enable us to secure them. As the hon. Gentleman knows, his constituency is faced with problems of location and infrastructure. Possibly the greatest single contribution that we are making in the hon. Gentleman's part of Wales is the rapid progress towards completing the A55 dualling.

Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that the package which the Welsh Office, the Welsh Development Agency and Winvest are able to offer industrialists who are considering moving into Wales has proved adequate since the boundaries for grants were last altered?

The fact that we have attracted about 20 per cent. of all inward investment into the United Kingdom, when we have about 7 per cent. of the population, shows that Wales is getting a very fair share. One threat that is hanging over that inward investment is the Labour party's promise to reintroduce exchange controls. I cannot think of a more devastating blow to job and investment prospects for Wales, as it would immediately halt inward investment and have a devastating impact on decisions made by overseas companies which have major plants here and are planning expansion.

When the Secretary of State talks about fair shares for Wales and the effectiveness of regional policy, would he care to read today's Financial Times supplement on regional policy, which speaks of the collapse of such a policy under this Government and says, among other things, that the increase in unemployment in Wales while the right hon. Gentleman has been in office is double that in Northern Ireland? Is that the legacy that the right hon. Gentleman will proudly leave Wales?

Unemployment in Wales has fallen in eight of the past nine months. The number of people unemployed in December was about 10,500 down on the peak of March last year and we have an all-time record allocation of Government factories at only just under 2·5 million sq ft. That shows the complete nonsense of describing our policies as a failure.

Jones asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the unemployment totals and percentages for (a) Wales and (b) Clwyd at the latest date for which such figures are available and for May 1979; and if he will give the percentage increase.

On 11 December 1986 the total numbers of unemployed claimants in Wales and Clwyd were 173,546 and 23,729 respectively. The number of unemployed claimants in Wales, seasonally adjusted, was 165,900, or 13·4 per cent. of the working population. In May 1979 it was 73,100, an increase over the period of 127 per cent.

Those are deeply disturbing figures, especially when seen against the background of the recently revealed loss of some 113,000 manufacturing jobs since 1979. One calculation is that, at the current rate of decrease, it will take until 1994 simply to reduce the figure to 100,000. Has the right hon. Gentleman realised the serious consequences that there would be for north-east Wales if the predatory and greedy BTR takeover bid for Pilkington was successful? I remind the right hon. Gentleman that my constituents at Queensferry have signed a petition against the takeover. Will he urge his Cabinet colleagues to reconsider the weak decision taken by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry not to refer the hid to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the public interest demands an about-turn, especially as junior Ministers do not support their Secretary of State? To us in Wales it appears that the City is increasingly corrupt. We want action on Pilkington.

On the ground of competition policy, bearing in mind the consistent application of that policy, and with the recommendation of the Director General of Fair Trading in front of him, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry made the absolutely correct decision. I am equally sure that investors in the company will want to take very careful account of Pilkington's impressive record in research and development and on maintaining regional operations in terms of headquarters and research and development. I am sure that they will also want to consider the company's successful record. I hope that investors will bear all those factors carefully in mind when they decide the long-term future of the company.

I think that we ought to welcome the reduction in unemployment in Wales, although it is marginal. My right hon. Friend travels far and wide to introduce industries to Wales and we have an excellent labour force, but if the Opposition continue with their scaremongering, industries from all over the world which intend to come to Wales, and which we need, will not come.

What is the question?

There is no doubt that hon. Members on both sides of the House should welcome the steady fall in unemployment that has taken place over the past nine months in Wales, and which as continued to be evident in the figures for the most recent available month. I repeat that the policies that are being advanced by the Opposition represent a serious threat. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) has introduced his own policy or, apparently, a whole range of competing development agencies in almost every hamlet of the Principality. That policy was promptly ridiculed and dismissed by almost all his colleagues, including a former Secretary of State for Wales.

As the right hon. Gentleman is so proud of his regional policy, will he tell us precisely how much the Treasury has saved on that policy since 1979? All those millions could have been better spent in the worst-hit areas of Wales.

As I have already pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman, the policies that we are pursuing have produced a rising number of new jobs, created as a result of that assistance. There has been a record amount of factory allocations and, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware, we have allocated substantial new resources to the valleys initiative and the proposed garden festival that will be held in his constituency.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be a general welcome for the clear lead that he gave just now in his answer about the Government's belief that the independence of Pilkington is vital, not only for the retention of existing jobs, but for the provision of future jobs in north Wales?

There are two quite separate matters involved. There is the question of competition policy, and whether to send the matter to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, when making his announcement, pointed out that would not necessarily have led to any different decision.

I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware that the unemployment percentage in the Cardigan area is one of the highest in Wales and stands at 26 per cent., as it has done for the past 10 years. I wonder what plans the Secretary of State has in mind to try to resolve this problem.

I very much welcome the active initiatives that are being taken particularly in the Teifi valley by the enterprise agencies. I believe that the activities of those organisations will make an increasingly valuable contribution in some of the more difficult rural areas where it is not easy, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, to create new jobs. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman pointed out that this sutuation of high unemployment has continued in the area for a long time, including during the period of the Lib/Lab alliance.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what level of support he is giving to housing association activities in Wales.

My right hon. Friend has increased support for the housing association movement in Wales by 22 per cent. in 1987–88 to £54·7 million. With receipts, this will allow a gross Housing Corporation programme of nearly £59 million and is ample evidence of our continuing commitment to the housing association movement in Wales.

May I remind my hon. Friend of the recent announced partnership between a housing association, Cardiff city council and free enterprise sector capital to build over 600 new homes in St. Mellons? Many of those homes will be let to people on the council housing waiting list. Does he agree that this scheme offers a much more imaginative way forward, which I hope will be followed by other schemes in Wales?

I entirely agree with the sentiments that my hon. Friend has expressed. Of the amounts that I have mentioned this afternoon, the Housing Corporation has set aside £10 million for such schemes in Wales. I am pleased to announce that projects similar to the St. Mellons scheme, but on a smaller scale, have been approved at Abergavenny, Chepstow and Camarthen. A number of others are under further consideration.

Although I welcome the increased funding for housing associations, can the Minister tell us how his figure of allocation agrees with the bids put in by housing associations in Wales or by how much it falls short? What is the declared capacity of the associations to build units as compared with the allocations made?

That is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the Housing Corporation. The reaction that I have had from housing associations in Wales shows that they are extremely pleased with the increase in resources that they have been given. Over the last two years those resources have been given a boost of 40 per cent.

Will the Minister ensure that all local authorities in Wales are encouraged to follow the model of the St. Mellons scheme, which is wlecome? Will he say, as a matter of policy, whether he wants housing associations to build, not for specialist groups and not just for sale, but for the general list for rent?

These schemes require the co-operation of local authorities. In the case of the St. Mellons scheme Cardiff city council is making land available and I hope that other authorities will be similarly involved. I hope that housing associations in Wales will undertake mixed and balanced programmes along the lines that the hon. Gentleman has described.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he is yet in a position to announce the date of his visit to the county palatine early in the new year, referred to in his answer of 17 November, Official Report, column 302; and if he will make a statement.

I hope to visit the county palatine next on 10 March in place of 31 March date to which I referred when I last answered questions.

When the right hon. Gentleman goes to the county palatine, will he tell the residents whether he regards it as a success of his Government's policy that 94 per cent. of the job losses since this Government came into office have taken place in the north and west of these islands, including the north of England, Wales and Scotland, and whether his answer to the unemployment problem is still that people should get on their bikes?

Given the time that the hon. Gentleman had to rehearse his supplementary question, he has not done terribly well on it. Unemployment is now falling in the United Kingdom. Jobs are being created at a very high rate in the north and west, just as they are in the south. However, it is not surprising that during a period of worldwide decline in such heavy industries as shipbuilding and steel the major job losses in Britain should have been concentrated where those industries are situated. The Government's regional and other policies are doing everything possible to regenerate jobs in those areas. The actions of some Labour local authorities are not conducive to helping in that process.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that on his last visit to the county palatine, and in particular to Bury, he performed the topping-out ceremony of a new unit at Fairfield hospital? That unit had waited for years to be constructed under a Labour Government. Does he agree that it has taken a Tory Government to build the hospitals, whereas the Opposition merely talk about them?

My hon. Friend is right. Many of the hospitals currently being built by this Government, and the many which have already been completed, were taken out of the Labour Government's programme during the IMF crisis 10 years ago. We should not be surprised at that, because I am reminded that it is just 19 years ago today that the Labour Government announced slashing expenditure reductions which involved postponing the raising of the school-leaving age, led to the introduction of prescription charges, the slashing of the housing programme by 165,000 houses a year and the slashing of defence expenditure. Of course, that is quite normal for Labour Governments, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time was the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), who has now been given the job as economic spokesman for the SDP.

When the right hon. Gentleman visits the county palatine, will he explain to the people there why he was quite willing to come here in his chauffeur-driven car on Friday to vote down a private Member's Bill that would have assisted some pensioners? Since there has been a great deal written about what he did or did not say about Tories with a conscience, does his conduct on Friday demonstrate that he has much of a conscience?

Well——

Well…

I felt that I should vote against a measure that would cause an extra burden of taxation to fall upon young widows in order to give free television licences to my noble Friends the Lord Hailsham and the Lord Whitelaw.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he is yet in a position to give the date of his proposed visit to the county palatine early in the new year, mentioned in his answer of 17 November, Official Report, column 302; and if he will make a statement.

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave some moments ago.

By the time my right hon. Friend gets to the Duchy, will he make an estimate of the number of people whose jobs will be affected if we were to follow non-nuclear defence and energy policies?

It would be difficult to make a full estimate of the number of people. British Nuclear Fuels Limited at Sellafield, Springfields and Risley employs 16,000 people, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, principally at Risley, employs 3,900, the National Nuclear Corporation at Booths Hall and Risley employs 2,300 people, and the CEGB at Heysham 1 and 2 nuclear stations employs 1,250 people. There are, therefore, some 23,000 employees directly in the north-west. BNFL alone estimates that its programme supports a further 50,000 jobs, mostly in the north-west. On top of that, we could add all the Vickers jobs on the new Trident nuclear submarine programme. All in all, an impressive number of jobs would be thrown away by a Labour Government if we ever had that misfortune visited upon us.

asked the right hon. Member for Taunton, answering on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission, what criteria the Commission uses in appointing the Accounting Officer for the National Audit Office.

In appointing the serving Comptroller and Auditor General to be Accounting Officer for the National Audit Office Vote with effect from 1 January 1984 the commission followed the long-standing practice of appointing the officer in the best position to discharge overall responsibility for policy and for the resources allocated to the office. The C and AG, is of course, by statute, head of the National Audit Office.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question of which I gave him notice last month? Can he say whether, in appointing the Accounting Officer, his ability to take a grip on the financial control of the security services is taken into account? Is not this matter given added importance by the controversy over electronic surveillance data that has blown up in the past three days? It is one of a number of controversies that make it important that the Public Accounts Committee, on behalf of the House, should have oversight of the security forces and what they do.

The duties of the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the security services are covered by long-standing arrangements that were endorsed by the Public Accounts Committee. Expenditure on the secret service is accounted for by the Cabinet Office. The Comptroller and Auditor General does not examine the records relating to this expenditure, but, instead, receives personal certificates from the responsible Ministers of the Crown to the effect that the payments were properly made from the secret Vote in the public interest. He then certifies the Appropriation Account to this effect. If there is other expenditure on intelligence and security services that might be borne in other Votes, they will then be subject to full audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

As the Accounting Officer may well come from the area known as the City, will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that the field is scattered with individuals who would be suspect as accounting officers? Will the right hon. Gentleman steer clear of Guinness, Morgan Grenfell and all the other merchant banks that have been involved in swindling the public during the past few weeks?

I am sure that it would be the wish of the House that I should make it absolutely clear that not only those of us who are concerned with the affairs of the Commission but the House in general have total confidence in the integrity of the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff.

Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify one point? He said a few moments ago that nothing like the sums referred to in the press had been incurred. By that does he mean that they have not been incurred so far, or is he saying that they will not be incurred as the total cost of the project?

I am told that the project is at an experimental stage. That is why no large expenditures, or no expenditures on the scale of those mentioned in the newspapers, have yet been incurred.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of lancaster how many Civil Service staff are employed in his Office; and in what capacity.

Four: a private secretary, an assistant private secretary, a personal secretary and an administrative officer.

Bearing in mind that virtually the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's time is spent at Tory Central Office, one wonders why he needs such a staff. Will he explain to the House why quite a number of his Cabinet colleagues have apparently let it be known that he made the alleged remark, namely, that nobody with a conscience votes Conservative? Why should so many of his Cabinet colleagues wish to do him harm?

First, although I spend a considerable amount of my time on the affairs of the Conservative party, which is the reason why I am not paid as a Minister out of public funds, I also have a considerable workload of Cabinet work and other work which is the concern of my four members of staff at the Cabinet Office.

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many telephone calls from the Palace of Westminster have been logged in the past six months.

As I made clear in earlier replies to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) on 5 December, at column 802, and on 10 December, at column 203, and to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) on 19 December, at column 721, the call logging equipment is capable of storing only the date and time of each call made within the United Kingdom from extensions of the Palace of Westminster exchange; it does not cover direct lines or international calls. This information is stored for no more than two months. Figures for the number of calls logged in the past six months are, therefore, not available.

Is the Lord Privy Seal saying unequivocally that there is therefore no logging whatsoever of any calls that may have taken place between the office of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and the office of Mr. Malcolm Turnbull in Australia?

Certainly, If the hon. Gentleman studies tomorrow my answer, he will see that direct lines or international calls are specifically excluded.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the embarrassment of the Leader of the Opposition in conducting conversations with a lawyer representing a defendant in a case where the Crown is the plaintiff and where issues of national security are concerned will not be saved by making spurious allegations about his telephone being bugged? The answer is that for cheap political gain and cheap political purposes the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to stoop to whatever tactics are available.

I do not think that I can helpfully add to the reply that I have just given.

The Leader of the House said that direct calls and international calls are not logged. Have I misunderstood the House of Commons system? Is it not a fact that if somebody wants to make an international call he has to go via the House of Commons operator? Therefore the call must be logged.

I do suggest that the hon. Gentleman should study the answers that I have given. I have said specifically that international calls are not logged. The hon. Gentleman could check that with the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee, which was responsible for the equipment being installed.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what were the takings in (a) the month and (b) the year up to 24 December 1986 at the House of Commons sales kiosk; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply.

I congratulate my hon. Friend and all concerned with the remarkably hard work behind those figures. May I ask, first, to what use is any profit included in those figures put, and, secondly, will there by any price reductions? Is he aware of the recent, welcome innovation of selling House of Commons humbugs? Is he further aware that these are sold in a three quarter pound tin at £2·50, whereas in the shop down the road the same weight can be bought for under 80p? Why are House of Commons humbugs so expensive?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks about the Department. All the staff who have achieved this marvellous result in difficult working conditions in a kiosk which is 6ft by 23ft deserve our thanks. The staff of the whole Department deserve our thanks.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the latest progress being made in providing additional office accommodation for hon. Members.

Work has now begun on the redevelopment of the area between Parliament Street and Cannon Row, and this scheme is still on schedule for completion in 1990. In addition, as hon. Members will have noticed, the writing rooms above the Division Lobbies were converted into Members' offices during the last summer recess.

Is the Lord Privy Seal confirming that the first phase is likely to be completed by its target date? Secondly, what progress is being made on the second phase? How many additional offices have been made available to hon. Members within the Palace of Westminster during the past 12 months?

On the third point, I cannot be absolutely certain that I have noticed how many offices have been made available, but that will be covered by the reference to the Members' offices that were converted from the rooms above the Division Lobbies. As to the first question, I can confirm that what is popularly known as phase 1 is on schedule for completion in 1990, but at the moment I have nothing further to report on phase 2 beyond what was last said.

Is there any correlation between the size of a Member's office and his contribution here?

Absolutely none. Were there to be such a correlation it would be an invidious task for those operating through the usual channels to have to allocate the offices.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also accept that all Ministers would have to abandon their offices if he were to follow the guidance of the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes)?

The hon. Gentleman would argue himself into some difficulties if he asserted that Members had to have accommodation close by their secretaries. Many Members want the repossession of the Palace of Westminster by Members, which would mean that research assistants and the rest would be housed elsewhere. That kind of dilemma will make this a highly topical and contentious issue long after we are drenched with accommodation.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he has any proposals to reform the conduct of Northern Ireland business; and if he will make a statement.

At present none, Sir.

While the Northern Ireland Office is addicted to the separate statute book, does my right hon. Friend think that it is in keeping with our system of parliamentary government that Northern Ireland legislation should be done, and should have been done for so many years, in the form of unamendable Orders in Council, only briefly debated?

My hon. Friend makes the point fairly and he will recall that last February an invitation was issued by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the leaders of the Unionist parties to discuss whether alterations should take place in our system of handling Northern Ireland legislation, and there the matter rests.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

On a point of order Mr. Speaker.

I shall deal only with points of order arising out of questions. I shall take the point of order of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) first.

I know that you will appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that this is a point of order directed to you and and I am sure that you will give the matter serious consideration. Today, Welsh Questions started at 2.35 pm and ended at 3.10 pm and seven questions out of 24 were reached. I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, to give further consideration, along with the House of Commons (Services) Select Committee, to ensuring that Welsh Questions have the full allocation of time from 2.35 pm until 3.30 pm so that matters affecting all constituents in Wales can be aired once every third week in the Chamber. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, kindly to review the matter so that that can be accomplished.

The timing of Questions is not a matter for me——

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. I am dealing with a point of order. The timing of Questions is a matter to be taken up through the usual channels. In fact, we dealt with nine questions. Questions 19 and 24 were taken with other questions. I do try during Welsh Questions, as the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) will see if he looks at the Order Paper, to call every Member who has a question on the Order Paper. The hon. Gentleman was not rising at a moment when I could have called him.

On a point of order arising out of questions, Mr. Speaker. You will recollect that during questions the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said that the statement that no one with a conscience would vote Conservative was—in his term—a libel. Clearly, we do not wish to raise anything in the House that is sub judice, and it has put my colleagues and me in a slightly difficult position. Since it is clearly, in his opinion, a libel, it might be helpful if he said whether a writ has been issued so that we know whether we can discuss the matter.

Order. That is not a matter for me.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for being rather over-keen when you were giving a ruling on the first point of order.

It is the luck of the draw. The hon. Gentleman will know that the arrangements as set out on the Order Paper is that questions to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster take precedence over those to the hon. Member answering for the Church Commissioners on this one day.

What about the length of answers?

I am not responsible for the length of answers.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) raised an important matter about whether the libel matter is sub judice.

Order. This is not a matter for me.

It is.

Well please try to make it so!

When a matter is sub judice, it is then for Mr. Speaker to tell hon. Members before questions, "Do not get involved in that particular matter because it is sub judice." Here we have a statement by a member of the Tory Cabinet, telling us that the allegation is libellous. We want to know from this silent right hon. Gentleman, who is usually so voluable, whether he has issued a writ in respect of this case. Hugo Young writes his column tomorrow, and some of us might even read it, so we want to know. You should know as well, Mr. Speaker, so that you can rule hon. Members out of order, if necessary.

Order.

rose——

Order. It does not help to have more points of order. We shall all know in due course.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has been characteristic of the manner in which the Opposition have conducted their opposition in this Parliament that they have used personal innuendo in the Chamber, which is protected by privilege, to make defamatory statements about Conservative Members. For the shadow Leader of the House to condone such behaviour is unparliamentary. Perhaps——

Order. This is a clear case of a continuation of Question Time. The House must find other ways to raise this matter.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It will be within your recollection that, at the end of last year, you wrote a long and serious letter about telephone tapping. You will have heard the exchanges today at Question Time. I do not doubt the good faith of the answer given by the Leader of the House, but there are problems here, because international calls appear to be being logged—I do not know whether that is the right term. They are made a note of and registered. There may have been a misunderstanding. Could either you or the Leader of the House consider the issues involved in this, or could the Leader of the House make it clear what his answer involves in relation to international calls of which a note is made? Part of the difficulty in all this is the terminology involved. For instance, my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam), who is a telephone engineer, says that telephone tapping is the wrong term and one should talk about electronic interference. The niceties of language do not cover the important substance of the issue. It may be that the Leader of the House would like to clear up the position in relation to international calls when he has the opportunity to do so.

The Leader of the House will have listened to that.

I am anxious to help the House. I answered the question that was tabled. I am happy to discuss the matter further with the hon. Gentleman.