asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further proposals lie intends to make to improve safety in houses in multiple occupancy in Wales.

I have asked my officials to consult urgently with local authorities and other relevant bodies with a view to stimulating practical initiatives to bring about improved safety and other standards in such accommodation.

The Minister will know the inadequacy of the present law, which was tragically demonstrated by a fire which occurred in one such house in my constituency towards the end of last year. Will he consider three specific suggestions? First, the inspection of the property should be a duty on local authorities and fire authorities rather than merely a power. Secondly, if any of the houses are closed because fire precautions are inadequate, displaced residents should be in the priority categories of homeless people. Thirdly, does the Minister agree that 'the owners of such houses, some of whom benefit by many thousands of pounds each year, should have strict duties placed upon them to ensure the proper adaptation of the houses and the highest degree of fire safety?

I am aware of the tragic fire that took place in Pontypridd and I extend my sympathy to the relatives of those concerned. With regard to the three points which the hon. Gentleman made, first, we believe that local authorities have adequate powers under existing laws and we urge them to use those powers. Secondly, there are duties in relation to fire safety precautions which local authorities are obliged to carry out. Thirdly, the owners of such homes are under certain statutory obligations and it is for the local authorities to ensure that those statutory obligations are carried out.

Is my hon. Friend aware that not all local authorities would fully accept his contention that their powers are adequate in this respect? Without going so far as the moves proposed by the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), will my hon. Friend undertake to look very carefully at this again?

I certainly undertake to look at it, but I note that, so far, only two local authorities operate registration schemes—in Cardiff and in Swansea.

The Minister has just said that there are adequate powers under the present laws. Is he aware that the Government survey published on 23 January showed that more than 81 per cent. of houses in multiple occupation are deficient in means of escape from fire and that the present laws cover only an estimated 8 per cent. of them? Will the Minister give an assurance that on Friday the Government will not talk out my Bill, which is designed specifically to deal with this subject? Is he aware that if the Government talk the Bill out they will face a tidal wave of outrage at their lack of concern?

That is not a matter for me. It is a matter for the House on Friday.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that local councils are making sufficient use of their powers in this regard?

We are not satisfied, and we are taking steps to draw local authorities' attention to the powers that are available to them and which they should be exercising.

Does the Minister recognise that one of the best means of counteracting the hazards of multiple occupation is to allow local authorities to build up their depleted housing stock, which would have the social benefit of enabling people to live in decent homes and the economic advantage of putting more than 20,000 building workers back to work?

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, there are no restrictions on local authorities expanding their housing stock. That is a matter for their own priorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the membership, staffing, resources, strategy and policy of the special health authority to be set up to deal with health education matters in Wales.

My right hon. Friend announced the remit of the new authority on 16 January and a statement on membership will be made shortly. I am pleased to announce that we shall be making £1·2 million available to the authority in its first year.

I welcome my hon. Friend's announcement, especially about the dramatic increase in resources. Will he take the opportunity offered by these much-strengthened health education arrangements to introduce a distinctly Welsh initiative and put Wales in the vanguard of education on drug misuse?

The Welsh health promotion authority will have wide powers of health promotion and will continue the campaigns already under way, such as Heartbeat Wales and the work of the health advisory committee. The £1·2 million that I have announced is an increase of 50 per cent. on comparable expenditure this year, but it is not the entire budget available for health promotion in Wales, which should amount to a total of £2·2 million for the year in question.

Does the Minister agree that money spent on promoting education on the dangers of tobacco smoking will be wasted if the Government continue to take a pusillanimous attitude to the money spent by tobacco companies on art and other forms of culture?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the new agreement reached between the Government and the tobacco companies.

Notwithstanding the welcome resources being made available by the Government to tackle drug abuse and other health problems in Wales, does my hon. Friend agree that the greatest problem is, has been, and is likely to remain, that of alcohol abuse? What do the Government intend to do, within the terms of the measure that my hon. Friend has announced, to advise people of the dangers of alcohol abuse?

Both drug abuse and alcohol abuse will fall within the remit of the new special health authority.

Will the Minister give an assurance to the House and to the professionals engaged in health education in Wales that the arrangements will not prejudice the independence of health education from Government? Concern has been expressed that the establishment of the special health authority might mean that those involved in health education could no longer independently criticise Government policy when it is inimical to good health.

The independence that existed before the arrangements were made will remain after they come into force.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions his officials have had with Rhuddlan borough council about grants for housing action in Rhyl.

Our officials have had a number of such discussions with Rhuddlan borough council. The most recent was on 4 February 1987, when the authority's proposals for potential housing action areas and enveloping schemes in Rhyl were discussed.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Is he aware that although the borough of Rhuddlan as a whole does not have a particularly acute housing problem, in one small part of the Rhyl—the west end—there is quite a severe problem of sharply deteriorating housing conditions? Will my hon. Friend have further discussions with the council to see whether it needs any further help to speed up its programme?

I am aware of the problem to which my hon. Friend refers. I understand that Rhuddlan borough council has underspent in terms of the housing spending power available to it in each of the past five years. I have asked my officials to have further discussions with the council to encourage it to devise a strategy for tackling the real problems which I know exist in Rhyl.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what average level of rate increases he expects in Wales for the year 1987–88.

The rate support grant settlement that I intend to make for 1987–88 is a generous one for Wales. As I have told the House, I intend to increase all the main components by more than the forecast rate of inflation. Consequently, if councils spend in line with the settlement, and after allowing for the settlement of the teachers' pay dispute, the average rate increase in Wales should be in low single figures. As I warned the Welsh Grand Committee, some counties seem to be planning expenditure which would produce higher increases than that. I hope that those councils will think again.

In view of the forecasts of higher rate increased in some counties, will my right hon. Friend name any factors that he thinks would justify such higher increases?

I do not think there are any such factors. It is within the power of local authorities, spending at about the same level as the general increase in costs this year, or even a little more, to keep rate bills down to low single figures, and in some instances to make reductions. Some of the proposals being considered by some counties bear no relationship to the increase in costs in the economy as a whole or to the requirements and needs of their ratepayers.

Does the Secretary of State realise that for our 37 district councils the year-on-year increase in block grant is only 0.7 per cent. and that with his imposed settlement there is such volatility that it is likely to bring about rate variations of between minus 20 per cent. and plus 30 per cent? Would the right hon. Gentleman expect private enterprise to function successfully with such crazy arithmetic?

It is perfectly true that in this year's settlement we have put the emphasis on the priority areas of education and law and order which, broadly, come under the responsibility of the counties, and that some of the precepts by districts will be relatively high. As the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, however, the effect of the district increases on the rates bill paid by the ratepayer is relatively small because the county share is by far the largest proportion.

Will my right hon. Friend impress upon Clwyd county council that the ratepayers of Clwyd, especially those who are also employers, cannot afford such absurdities as, first, a castle and a proposed concert hall on the lines of Sydney opera house, both of which have serious revenue, let alone capital, implications, and secondly, 22,300 surplus primary and secondary school places which cost £3 million per year to keep empty?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the problem of surplus school places. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Conwy (Mr. Roberts), told the House when we last answered Welsh questions, there are 150,000 surplus school places in Wales, costing about £18 million a year, which could be used to improve the education service. There is no doubt that if Clwyd pursued sensible policies there could be a low rate increase.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement outlining his Department's policy and level of per capita support for the promotion of the Welsh language.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State outlined the Government's policy in his speech to representatives of Gwynedd county council on 15 April 1980, a copy of which is in the Library. Direct Government expenditure on the Welsh language in 1986–87 for each Welsh-speaking resident aged three years and over is expected to be £6·42. That does not include approximately £14 million spent by local education authorities on Welsh medium and bilingual education or support amounting to some £34 million for S4C.

I am grateful to the Minister for that detailed reply, and I apologise to Welsh Members for trespassing. My interest is simply this. How much interdepartmental contact do Welsh Office officials dealing with the promotion of the Welsh language and culture have with their opposite numbers in the Scottish Office? I do not know the outturn for those figures in Wales, but there is a strong feeling in Scotland that the Welsh are doing considerably better than the Gaels with regard to expenditure. Any nudges that the Minister's officials could give to the Scottish Office would be appreciated.

With regard to expenditure on the promotion of the Gaelic language, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman addresses a question to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. In the meantime, perhaps he would care to look at the reply given by my right hon. and learned Friend in July last year to the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart).

Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite all that expenditure, the use of the Welsh language declines inexorably year on year? Does he therefore agree that the use of minority languages, whether Welsh, Gaelic or Gujarati, is a divisive rather than a uniting factor and that any such expenditure should be seriously reviewed?

I am sorry that my hon. Friend takes that view. We do not accept the inexorable decline of the Welsh language. In fact, we are doing everything possible to promote the Welsh language. It is the oldest language still spoken in the United Kingdom, and I think that most. hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree with the Government's policy of promoting its survival.

In view of the consultation about a new Welsh language Act which the Minister's Department has launched with a number of bodies in Wales, will he give an assurance that his announcement to the press in the past two weeks about the slowness of the response coming to hand is not a ploy by the Welsh Office to delay the reviewing of that response beyond 31 March? Will he undertake to produce a White Paper on the Government's intentions shortly after the conclusion of the consultation?

The hon . Gentleman is aware that we allowed six months for the consultation period. He is also aware that I was concerned that only 10 per cent. of the bodies to which we sent consultation papers had replied by a week or so ago. Eight weeks remain until the end of the consultation period. That was the purpose of my press announcement. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's request for a White Paper, we must obviously consider the replies that we receive and consult within Government.

Will the Minister repeat the figures of support? Did he say that it was £6·35 per Welsh-speaking person in Wales? If so, what is the significance of relating that amount to Welsh-speaking people? Surely if we are to develop the Welsh language, to which the Minister says he is committed, the amount of money spent in the English-speaking areas must be significant. Will the Minister elaborate on that peculiar relationship?

The amount that I specified as being spent per Welsh-speaking resident aged three years and over was £6·42. Obviously, that is derived from a totality of figures. It will not be beyond the wit of the hon. Gentleman to divide the total spent on the total population of Wales to discover how much is spent by the Government per person in Wales.

How does my hon. Friend believe that the promotion of the Welsh language will be assisted by the most regrettable decision of Cymdeithas yr faith, the Welsh Language Society—

Smear! Smear!

My hon. Friend the Minister will draw his own conclusions from the fact that the cry of "Smear" came from the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley). How does my hon. Friend believe that it will assist the Welsh language for Cymdeithas yr Iaith, the Welsh Language Society, to make this most regrettable invitation to Sinn Fein to visit Wales? Surely that should be condemned by everyone.

I do not think that it will help at all. I was glad to hear my hon. Friend's remarks and to read that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas), as president of Plaid Cymru, has also condemned the visit. With regard to the Gaelic language as spoken in the Republic, it was compulsory in education until 1974, when the compulsion was abolished. I can only warn members of Cymdeithas yr laith that in the words of Swift:

"Ill company is like a dog, who dirts those most whom he loves best".

The hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth), caused offence by his ignorant intervention. Is not the consensus in Wales that we all want the language to prosper? Does the Minister believe, as we do, that there should be a new Welsh Language Act.

It is easy to call for a new Welsh Language Act without giving substantial reasons for it. That is why we are consulting the public. We hope to achieve substantive views from the consultation as to whether a change is necessary, and why. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman supports the Welsh language. He will be interested to know that the equivalent figure of support given by the Labour Government in their last year of office was £1·35 per Welsh-speaking person.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will review his Department's policy towards services for mental illness; and if he will make a statement.

As my right hon. Friend announced on 24 October 1986, we intend to publish a paper setting out the ways in which services for those suffering from mental illness can be further developed and improved.

Does the Minister accept that those who are engaged in the mental illness service in the social services, the Health Service and the voluntary sector will be disappointed by that reply, as they had hoped that the Minister would be able to announce some progress in this area? Will he ensure that the money available for the development of mental health services in Wales is substantially increased in view of the recent estimate by Clwyd, for example, that its strategy for adult mental illness will cost more than £6 million in revenue funds and £8 million in capital costs? Will he make an announcement soon of the development programme and on increasing the funding?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are as anxious as he is to make progress on such matters. It is important to get the consultation right. We shall make our decision and publish the report as soon as we can. In the coming financial year £10 million will be available for mental handicap, and we intend to continue our commitment.

While warmly welcoming the Government's strategy of getting the mentally ill back into the community, may I ask my hon. Friend to consider the devastating impact on the local community of the closure of North Wales hospital? Will he consider providing Welsh Office funding for any viable proposal for the use of the building?

Before we reach that stage, we must carry out the necessary consultation. We have not yet made a final decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much money was available for loft insulation grants in Wales in 1986–87; and how much will be made available in 1987–88.

Bids by Welsh local authorities for the homes insulation scheme have been met in full. The sums allocated were £2·7 million for 1986–87 and £2·3 million for 1987–88.

Will the Minister join me in pressing the Government to ensure that there will be no cuts in loft insulation grants, which would be a tremendous blow to energy conservation? Will the Minister press the Government to include draughtproofing as well as insulation in the schemes so that elderly people in receipt of supplementary benefit or housing benefit can be protected from the effects of severe cold?

I have already told the hon. Gentleman that bids for 1987–88 have been met in full. I cannot go beyond that. If the Government plan any changes along the lines mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, the announcement will be made in the appropriate place at the appropriate time.

What precautions is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that companies engaged in loft insulation work paid for by grants are reputable companies and not cowboys who do not do the job properly?

We issue guidance to local authorities and ask them to pass that guidance to people who make inquiries of them.

When the Minister said that he had given the local authorities everything for which they had asked, was he aware that the Department responsible for such matters in England was planning to withdraw insulation grants from the overwhelming majority of Welsh homes? Is he aware that there will be no grants to improve loft insulation and to bring insulation up to an adequate level for the overwhelming majority of Welsh households?

The hon. Gentleman is referring to the consultation which the Government are undertaking with regard to the better targeting of home insulation schemes. An announcement will be made at the appropriate time.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next hopes to meet leaders of the farmers unions in Wales to discuss the effects of the recent decisions of the European Community Council of Ministers on Welsh agriculture.

I meet the leaders of the farmers unions in Wales regularly and frequently. I met the chairman of the council of the National Farmers Union in Wales last week and I am attending the annual dinner of the NFU tomorrow evening.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the great consternation among dairy farmers in Wales at the effects of the developments in relation to quota? In south Wales, especially, during the nine months from April last year until January this year, there was a loss of more than 7 million litres in milk quota. In view of that drastic effect—equivalent to the loss of 30 dairy farms in Wales—will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision not to buy milk quotas to form a quota bank and redistribute them to other farms in Wales?

The figure that the hon. Gentleman quotes represents only 0·48 per cent—less than one half of 1 per cent—of the total quota, allocated to holdings in Wales. There is a two-way flow of quota, which provides a very necessary flexibility in the administration of the quota scheme. The hon. Gentleman ought to hesitate long and hard before he tries to separate the arrangements for Wales from those for England and Wales, because Wales benefits enormously from participating in the England and Wales arrangements for milk.

When my right hon. Friend meets leaders of farmers unions in Wales tomorrow night, will he tell them how much he welcomes the recent decision by the European Community to make intervention stocks available to provide free food for needy people? Did he see the report in The Sunday Times yesterday, which described the scheme as pie in the sky, and the remarks of our right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), who said that the scheme is inadequate and ill thought out? Will my right hon. Friend please have early discussions with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to see how the scheme can be improved and how some of the bureaucracy can be removed, and to see that it is better publicised so that people know where to get help through what is, on the whole, a very worthwhile scheme?

A scheme of this kind is no substitute for fundamental reform of the common agricultural policy. This is a European scheme that has been put together rather hastily and it is undoubtedly causing administrative problems. We are distributing food through voluntary organisations that are long established in Britain and well equipped to do the work. We keep in close touch with them about mechanisms for distributing the food.

Did the Council of Ministers have any proposals for the release of farmland for housing or monocultural forestry operations? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, following the broad trailing over the weekend of the Government's proposals, there is widespread concern among environmentalists about what the Government are proposing? Is he further aware that anxiety is not confined to environmentalists, as people concerned with future employment prospects in rural areas in Wales appreciate that there can be no employment in, or financial justification for, what the Government are proposing? Is the right hon. Gentleman able to confirm that he is aware of these ALURE proposals, as they are described, and will he say whether, even at this late stage, he will try to exempt Wales from their implications?

It is characteristic of the hon. Gentleman that he rushes to condemn proposals before he knows what they are. I can tell him that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is answering a question this afternoon, when he will set out the Government's intentions in this respect. We have a scheme on which we shall consult. Full details will be available later today. The scheme is for the development of farm woodlands, some relaxation on present planning arrangements and for measures to encourage further employment in the countryside. Surely the hon. Gentleman supports and welcomes that.

Will the Secretary of State confirm, or deny, reports in the national newspapers during the weekend that the Conservative party intends to take 85 per cent. of agricultural land out of production to build houses or for afforestation?

The speculation is pure and unadulterated nonsense. I also observed that the chairman of the National Farmers Union has described the alliance's agricultural policy as a total disaster for British farming and the greatest catastrophe that it is likely to face this century.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the deep concern felt on this side of the House at the crisis facing Welsh farming? Will he consider pressing for a devaluation of the green pound, given that the currency is now 20 per cent. out of alignment? Will he also consider scrapping the £90 inspection charge, which is considered absurd by most farmers on whom it is inflicted?

We are consulting on the inspection charge and will make an announcement in due course. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the green pound discrepancy. It will undoubtedly be one of the matters to be considered in the coming price fixing. He knows that there has already been one alteration in the green currencies. The proper time, however, to deal with the major issue to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention is during the weeks ahead as we approach the major price fixing.

Does the Secretary of State accept that we recognise the importance of what the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will say about land use? By what means will the Minister do so? We would regard it as wholly unsatisfactory if he were to slip his announcement through by written answer.

My right hon. Friend will be answering a parliamentary question today. [HON. MEMBERS: "A written question?"]

Can my right hon. Friend explain why dairy inspections are to be charged for and why they will cost £90 for one visit every two years? My local farmers tell me that an inspector can easily cover eight farms in one day, and even then that inspectors tend to spend 15 minutes inspecting the dairy and 30 minutes having a cup of tea afterwards.

The charges cover, not simply the visits, but the full range of tests and administration of the scheme. My hon. Friend will also know that most well-organised farms will probably need only one visit every two years, and in many cases even less frequent visits than that. If he looks at almost any commercial organisation's charges for a visit of this type, he will regard these charges as modest.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many deaths from hypothermia have been recorded in Wales during the period May 1979 to January 1987.

Between May 1979 and November 1986, the latest month for which information is available, the number of occasions in Wales where hypothermia appeared on a death certificate, irrespective of whether it was recorded as being the underlying cause of death, was 344.

I am grateful for that reply. Is it not frightening to think that deaths are increasing as a result of the Government"s policy? Is the Minister aware that although the Government talk about the £5 that they are giving to old-age pensioners, they are continually moving the goal posts for qualifying? Will the Minister look at the leading article on page 7 of the Western Mail, which deals with a constituent of mine? It was suggested that if my constituent had an insurance policy with a surrender value of more than £1,500 he would lose his chances of getting the £5 back. May I suggest to the Minister and the Front Bench—

Briefly.

I shall not be long, Mr. Speaker. Would it not have been far better for the Government to use their time on Friday 16 January to vote for free television licences for pensioners, instead of voting against them, so that pensioners could use the £58 to provide themselves with heating and extra nourishment? Instead, the Government adopt this beastly attitude.

I am not sure what relevance the last part of that supplementary question had to hypothermia. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the figures for hypothermia during the years of the Labour Government—it is most inadvisable to play politics with these figures—he will see that they increased every year. If I may refer him to a previous parliamentary question on deaths from hypothermia in winter, he will notice that the highest figure was in the last year of the Labour Government. With regard to the specific case in the Western Mail, I should point out that it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. If the hon. Gentleman writes to my right hon. Friend, I am sure that he will look into the case in depth.

Deaths from hypothermia are distressing and should be decreasing. Is not the reason for their rise badly insulated, ill-repaired, housing stock in Wales, where 140,000 homes are deemed unfit for habitation? Are there not 20,000 unemployed construction workers and more than £190 million worth of renovation grants outstanding? Might not action here save lives next winter?

The hon. Gentleman refers to a rise in Wales, but the figures vary from year to year, and the figures for last year were down on the figures for the year before and also on those recorded in the last year of the Labour Government. The Government are doing precisely what the hon. Gentleman is asking us to do. [Interruption.] I know that it is painful, but I remind him that under this Government £333 million has been spent renovating the private stock, whereas under the previous Labour Government only £57 million was spent.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council houses have been sold to sitting tenants in Wales since May 1979.

Some 49,846 council dwellings were sold to sitting tenants in Wales between May 1979 and 30 September 1986. Taking into account sales by new towns and housing associations, over 55,000 public sector dwellings have been sold since May 1979.

What is my hon. Friend doing to draw the attention of the public to the provisions of the Housing and Planning Act 1986? Does he expect that this will have a big effect on the figures in the future?

I expect it to have an effect on figures in the future, because it increases the discount range on flats from 32 to 60 per cent. to 44 to 70 per cent., with discount occurring at twice the previous rate. This will protect purchasers from unexpectedly high service charges. There has been a reduction in discount repayment from five to three years. The Government will shortly mount a publicity campaign to draw the attention of tenants, particularly of flats, to their right to buy and to the changes resulting from the Housing and Planning Act.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if the commissioners have yet reached a decision on the recommendation of the report "Faith in the City" that the commissioners should contribute £1 million per annum for 10 years to the General Synod's proposed urban fund; and if he will make a statement.

If legislation currently before the General Synod is approved both by the Synod and Parliament, the commissioners will consider sympathetically the recommendation that they should make available at least £1 million a year.

As clergy stipends and pensions depend so much on the returns made by the Church Commissioners on their capital assets, can my hon. Friend assure the House that the commissioners will not sell off part of their assets to raise this £1 million for each of the next 10 years, if Parliament so wills it, but will encourage a special appeal, to which they will invite churchgoers and others to contribute?

The special appeal is not for me, and is a separate matter. On matters pertaining to the Church Commissioners, I can say that this money will not be raised out of capital, and it is seen as part of a general continuing process of evening out disparities between historic resources of different dioceses.

As the funds of the Church Commissioners are used primarily for salaries and pensions, to what extent will salaries and pensions be reduced to meet this sum? To put that question another way, to what extent must the laity increase their giving to make sure that these cuts do not occur?

The hon. Gentleman is right. Any sums that Parliament authorises the commissioners to make, and it will be only when Parliament so authorises that this happens, must, by definition, leave fewer resources available for stipends and pensions. With a prudent investment policy, it will not be necessary for us to be talking about cuts.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am somewhat puzzled by his reply? Is not the money of the Church Commissioners primarily, if not wholly, to be used for the purpose of the Church? If the Church is to make enormous contributions to all kinds of other schemes, what will be left for the Church itself?

With great respect to my hon. Friend, I point out that it will be for the urban fund to allocate these moneys, not for the Church Commissioners. They will respond to the request if Parliament so authorises and the General Synod so decides.

May I urge, through the hon. Gentleman, that the Church Commissioners should make that decision and contribution as urgently as possible? Will he also urge them to consider ways in which they might, as a matter of urgency, through the urban fund, support the schooling that is provided by the Church in urban areas? The hon. Gentleman may be able to comment on the fact that at this moment there is a growing, weekly crisis in the staffing of Church schools, caused in part by the lack of buildings and also by the lack of incremental and other opportunities. Could that be considered by the Church Commissioners, too?

The pace at which the Church Commissioners can move is dictated, first, by the corporate decision of the General Synod and, secondly, by Parliament. Only then will they lawfully be able to proceed. I am afraid that I cannot assist the hon. Gentleman by referring to individual projects. That is not the concern of the Church Commissioners, nor should it be. It will be the concern of the urban fund.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, further to his answer to the hon. Member for Leicester, East of 8 December, Official Report, column 13, what further consideration he has given to means of meeting a higher proportion of the expenses incurred by assistant curates.

It is the parish responsibility to reimburse the expenses incurred by assistant curates. To encourage parishes to meet these responsibilites, the commissioners have issued a newly revised booklet which offers guidelines on all aspects of clergy expenses. This has been sent to all dioceses and parishes.

Although I know that my hon. Friend shares the concern that assistant curates are not having all their expenses met in full—indeed, I believe that 16 per cent. of all expenses are not being met—will he reassure me that the "Parochial Expenses of the Clergy" booklet, which is available, is sent to every treasurer of the parochial church councils and that the PCC responsibility is made quite clear? Our assistant curates are having a difficult time at the moment and, because of all the unpaid work that they do, the sooner their expenses are met in full the better.

I think that very vigorous action has been taken along the lines that my hon. Friend has urged, and I am obliged to him for drawing attention to that matter. The truth is that every legitimate expense that is not met means that the stipend is thereby reduced.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if the commissioners have made any investments in the provision of premises suitable for small businesses in deprived areas.

Yes, Sir. The commissioners have recently completed a workshop and studio development in the London borough of Hackney. This has been specially designed to meet the needs of small businesses, which will be able to rent space on flexible terms. It is very much hoped that this development will help promote new jobs and new business in the area.

I congratulate my hon. Friend, and those whom he represents, on that answer. May I ask ham what kind of people will be taking up those premises? Have the Church Commissioners any plans to extend this principle to other parts of the nation, and if so, where?

There is a mix of tenants in this development, including printers, interior designers and photographic firms. I am also glad to say that TOC H, Church Action for the Unemployed and the Bridge Project Trust, which is a Christian organisation helping the unemployed, have taken space in the building. There is no immediate plan for another such development, because each individual case must be looked at very carefully. However, I am encouraged by my hon. Friend's commendation.

I, too, congratulate the Church Commissioners on their initiative, but may I draw the hon. Member's attention to projects that are being considered south of the River Thames by Church Action for the Unemployed and other such organisations, such as Headstart, with the Cambridge University Mission? Perhaps the Church Commissioners would look at those projects as a way of alleviating the problem, through a form of lay ministry, which has been much appreciated when initiatives have been taken.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to draw my attention at any time to any specific project, I shall be very happy to pass on the details. Meanwhile, I am sure that the House knows, in a different part of the country altogether and on a different scale, of the Metro Centre in Gateshead. That is not a small business. It involves the employment of an additional 6,000 people and is making a major contribution to easing the unemployment problems in that part of the country.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the unemployment totals and percentages for (a) Wales and (b) Clwyd at the latest date for which such figures are available and for May 1979; and if he will give the percentage increase.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the unemployment totals and percentages for (a) Wales and (b) Clwyd at the latest date for which such figures are available and for May 1979; and if he will give the percentage increase.

I refer to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) on 19 January. No more recent figures are available.

The unemployment figures in Wales, and Clwyd in particular, are truly distressing. Against that background, will the right hon. Gentleman back to the hilt the application by British Aerospace for £750 million worth of launch aid over six years for the new family of Airbus A330-A340? I want the right hon. Gentleman to fight his corner in Cabinet. The project needs Government cash and British Aerospace does not want City cash with strings. Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that if British Aerospace withdraws from Airbus Industrie the United Kingdom will lose its capability for civil aircraft production? May I remind the Secretary of State that 4,000 aerospace jobs exist at Broughton in my constituency, where many hundreds of people make the wings of the Airbus. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say without any shadow of doubt that he will fight his corner in Cabinet for a great industry in Wales.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that unemployment in Wales has fallen in eight out of the last nine months. British Aerospace will be amazed at his assertion that it does not want City finance. I think that it will reject that assertion out of hand. I note what he says about the merits of this proposal. The Government will consider all those arguments in the appropriate way and make an announcement at the appropriate time.

For once in his life will the Secretary of State answer a question and tell my hon. Friend whether he will fight for Wales in Cabinet? Is the right hon. Gentleman already thinking of his future life in the City after he leaves the House?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that when I think there is a good case, I fight for it. It is quite clear from the many things that have been said in recent weeks that, whatever criticisms may be made of me, no one has argued that I do not do that.

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many admission orders were issued for the Strangers Gallery in each of the past three years; of those issued to hon. Members and right hon. Members, what was the percentage take-up; and if there are any plans to change the arrangements for ticket allocation.

The number of admission orders issued for the Strangers' Gallery over the past three years was 134,160 in 1986, 140,527 in 1985, and 141,868 in 1984. The percentage take-up of those orders issued to hon. Members for the same three years was 52·7 per cent., 48·6 per cent., and 53·5 per cent. respectively. I have no plans for changing the arrangements for the allocation of tickets to hon. Members.

Will my right hon. Friend look again at the way in which the allocation of admission orders is undertaken, especially as it appears that 47 per cent. of hon. Members do not take up their orders? May I ask him to consider the possibility of hon. Members who know that it is their allocation day writing in and applying for tickets in order to ensure that there are no empty areas in the Strangers' Gallery? Other hon. Members who are not in the list for that day could apply for the tickets, so that the House is properly supported at all times.

The present system has the merit of being relatively simple and everybody gets a chance to use his ticket if he wishes. Of course many tickets are returned, but they are eventually allocated. Half an hour is allowed before that process takes place and that often gives rise to the impression that the Galleries are far more empty when in fact they are temporarily under-used.

Does it seem right to the Leader of the House that there should be space up there in the Galleries and behind me when there is a queue of people outside waiting to come into the House?

That raises a totally different set of propositions from those put by my hon. Friend. It is Monday afternoon and it would not be wise for me to go down that path so early in the week.

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many offices in the Palace of Westminster are allocated (a) to hon. Members, (b) to hon. Members' secretaries, (c) to parliamentary staff and (d) others; and if he will make a statement.

The current distribution within that part of the Palace of Westminster allocated to the House of Commons is: hon. Members 273 offices, with 55 desks for hon. Members' secretaries on the lower ground floor; parliamentary staff 91 offices, and other organisations 31 offices.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the offices of some hon. Members are so far away that they have to open their mail in the corridors or while sitting on the floor? That happens sometimes because there are so many people occupying the seats. That is distressing. Does he think that it would be helpful to hon. Members from different parties if their secretaries were not in the same room? Does he think that the secretaries of Members from only one party should occupy a room? Would that be helpful?

As to the first part of the question, that is certainly going down memory lane. That is just what I did more than 20 years ago and I do not think that my mail suffered thereby. As to my hon. Friend's second point, I believe that the authorities do their utmost to accommodate those hon. Members who want their secretaries to be in rooms occupied only by those of similar party affiliation. Some hon. Members favour a different system. I believe that, on the whole, we cater for the varying tastes in this matter.

Hear, hear. My wife is with two Tories and she is quite happy.

I shall take that as wholly unsolicited testimony to the virtue of Conservative Members.

What is the latest target date for the opening of the next set of offices which are being constructed on the site next to the Palace?

About 30 secretaries are expected to be housed in I Cannon Row, which should be available in 1988. As the hon. Gentleman may appreciate, and as has been frequently stated, it is hoped that phase 1 of the Bridge street site, which will provide accommodation for 60 Members of Parliament and 100 secretaries, will be completed in 1990.

Is my right hon. Friend able to say how many bedrooms there are in the Palace, the use to which they are put and how often they are used?

I am not able to answer that question without notice. I think that that is a question that merits being considered in its own right.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what steps are being taken to promote the use of recycled paper in the House of Commons.

The Services Committee decided in February 1982 that available papers containing recycled waste were not acceptable for Members' stationery. Since then HMSO has regularly reviewed the available paper containing waste, but has not yet discovered any of a quality superior to that previously rejected by the Committee.

How many trees a year does the right hon. Gentleman consider would be saved if we were to use recycled paper for the mountain of paper that we go o through? Should we not he setting an example to the environmentalists?

I cannot answer the first part of the question without a great deal of notice. As to the second part, I guarantee that the complaints of those who believe that we should be corresponding on stationery of the highest quality would far outweigh the voices of those who are promoting environmental considerations.

If my right hon. Friend wants to save forests, why does he not start with the Order Paper? Six sides of paper in tomorrow's Order Paper are filled with identical questions to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Cannot the names be one after the other? In that way, they might all be on one side of paper.

Prime Minister's Question Time is of such great value to the Conservative party, particularly during the pre-election period, that I would wish to do nothing that would minimise its success.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that. far from using recycled paper, a. return to parchment might save us all from having to endure a vast weight of paper?

That is the most socially constructive question that I have heard this afternoon.

Whether it be parchment or recycled paper, will my right hon. Friend ensure that none is used in the bedrooms in the Palace?

I take note of that thoughtful and well-directed question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends next to meet the chairman of British Rail to discuss rail operations in Wales.

My right hon. Friend met the chairman on 25 November arid has no further plans to do so at present.

The Secretary of State will know from his personal experience of the reduction in services to west Wales, such as the ending of the sleeper service. Will he ensure that west Wales is not marginalised in the railway network and that, for example, the Swansea to Cardiff line is not downgraded by British Rail?

These are operational matters for British Rail. British Rail is to make an announcement shortly about InterCity services. British Rail is to improve the Red Dragon executive service from Swansea from May. I understand that, in BR's opinion, there is no market for late evening services after 6.30 pm from Swansea.

Would it not boost railway operations in Wales if the Margam pit were now to be built? Does my hon. Friend think that the intervention of the National Union of Mineworkers' president is rather regrettable, hasty and should have been assessed by the Welsh miners?

All industrial developments in Wales will be helpful to British Rail because they will involve increased passenger traffic and freight. I should not like to comment on the attitude of the NUM, but I notice that there is a difference between what Mr. Scargill said and what was said by the local NUM leader in south Wales about that project.