asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made by Welsh local education authorities to reduce the number of surplus places in their schools.

The Department estimates that some 87,000 primary places and 32,000 secondary places remain surplus to requirements. I hope that authorities will come forward with proposals to the benefit of improved educational standards.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he confirm that it is vital, on both educational and financial grounds, to stop wasting money on empty desks and channel the money to more educationally valid purposes? Does he agree that if education authorities do not reduce expenditure on empty desks they will lay themselves open to challenge by ratepayers, through the district auditor, for wasting public money?

On the last point, I certainly respect my hon. Friend's professional expertise in this business. The cost of the surpluses to which I have referred is about £17 million per annum in Wales. That money could, of course, be applied to better educational purposes.

Is the Minister aware that in many parts of Wales the population is so sparse that spare places have been inevitable for the past 50 years? Is he further aware that Powys has only one child per 45 acres compared with one per two and a half acres in non-urban England? Does he agree that in comparing statistics the Audit Commission must be extremely careful to take account of sparsity factors when dealing with the education system?

Of course I agree that sparsity of population must be taken into account, and I am sure that the Audit Commission does so.

Does the Minister appreciate that schools such as Lliswerry comprehensive in my constituency have to rely on school closures and so-called surplus places to obtain replacement desks and chairs because the existing ones are in such a shocking state? Does he agree that this is yet another example of a vital public service being starved of funds, to the long-term detriment of our children?

The hon. Gentleman should know that spending on education this year is a record high of £980 per pupil. He should also realise that we have recognised that capital expenditure is often necessary to effect rationalisation of schools. That is why we have increased the capital allocation to local authorities by a massive 18 per cent. this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to seek to replace the employment which will be lost in the Denbigh area following the closure of the North Wales hospital.

If a substantial variation of service is proposed, Clwyd health authority will be required to consult local interests fully. In view of my possible future role, it would be improper for me to comment on the effects of the proposals at this time.

In view of that answer, will the right hon. Gentleman consider development area status for the vale of Clwyd, bearing in mind that rural Clwyd is surrounded by areas receiving assistance, including the Welsh Development Agency in Powys and assisted area status for the urban areas to the west?

I can understand the hon. Gentleman's suggestion and these matters are, of course, kept under review. There is, however, quite a lot going on in the area. For example, there are five WDA factories ready for occupation. Unemployment has fallen in the past 12 months, and I hope that it will continue to do so. I believe that the substantial improvements to the A55 will also be of considerable importance.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the widespread anger in North Wales at the panic hospital closures which are being further considered by Gwynedd health authority even this afternoon as we sit here, and that there will be a loss of some 150 jobs in the programme, many of them within the catchment area of the North Wales hospital? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that no such closures take place without reference to a longterm coherent strategy? If the health authority asks for a meeting with him to discuss financial difficulties, will he agree to that?

We are in constant touch with all health authorities and are always ready to have meetings with them on those subjects. We have had meetings with that health authority. I understand that it is meeting today to consider proposals drawn up by the general manager. I shall have to consider any proposals that are made subsequently. I know that the hon. Gentleman is particularly interested in Caernarfon cottage hospital. I have been told today that the health authority is not now being advised to close it on a temporary basis. Instead, the future of the hospital is being considered in the longer term. If any proposal is made for the longer-term closure of such a hospital it has to go through the full route of inquiries and eventually is subject to my consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the value of grants from his Department to voluntary organisations in each of the past three years at constant prices.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total of grants paid to voluntary bodies in Wales in 1978–79 and in the latest available financial year.

Welsh Office grants for voluntary bodies including those made under the urban programme and joint finance arrangements, totalled some £8·44 million for the 1986–87 financial year. The comparable figures for 1978–79, 1984–85 and 1985–86 are about £3·46 million, some £6·43 million and some £6·93 million respectively at constant prices.

I welcome the increase in the real value of those grants. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is a cost-effective form of expenditure and should be further increased?

The expenditure certainly has been increased — it has increased by 143 per cent. since the Government came to power. It is certainly cost-effective. It answers the real human need of those who receive benefit from the voluntary organisations and those who contribute to their work and financing.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the work done by voluntary organisations such as the Urban Ministry is invaluable, that such work cannot be matched by official bodies and that it should be encouraged further as part of the inner cities initiative? By how much has the urban programme increased in grants to voluntary organisations? Will my hon. Friend continue to look sympathetically at all applications for carrying on the work of the Urban Ministry?

A large number of bids are in at the moment, which are being considered. All such bids are considered seriously. The urban programme support for the voluntary sector has increased from some £600,000 a year to £2·8 million a year since we came to office.

The Minister says that there has been an increase of 150 per cent. in grants to voluntary bodies and charities. Is it not true that more people in Wales need help from voluntary bodies and charities because the Government are not doing their job?

Not at all, because the Government's expenditure on social services, health, education and everything else has been rising faster than inflation and the growth of the economy.

Will the Minister look particularly at the applications from Welsh Women's Aid, in view of the essential service provided by that voluntary body in reducing the amount of violence against women and ensuring the welfare of children in Wales?

The hon. Gentleman mentions a movement that I personally have always supported, and indeed, so have the Government. Since 1979–80 we have provided substantial programme support for the operational costs of women's refuges in Wales. In 1987–88 alone we are providing over £150,000 in support for that purpose. The running costs of Welsh Women's Aid are currently grant-aided separately by the Welsh Office. That grant has risen from £8,000 in 1978–79 to £70,000 in 1987–88.

Is not an additional factor the development of several new voluntary bodies of this character, which formerly were on a United Kingdom basis and now tend to be on a Welsh basis?

Yes. That is occurring to some extent. Under certain programmes, such as the urban programme and some of our other funding, it is necessary for those bodies to have a Welsh basis in order to receive assistance through the Welsh Office.

Will the Minister consider the effect on the voluntary sector in Wales of forthcoming changes in the community programme regulations which may make it much more difficult for the voluntary sector to maintain the level of activitiy, even with increased levels of direct grant? The community pogramme changes now being proposed will impoverish the voluntary sector by far more than the Government's direct urban aid support has enriched it.

I can best answer the hon. Gentleman by asking him to write and let me know precisely what he has in mind. I do not recognise any Government programmes that will damage the voluntary sector.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects the Welsh water authority to comply in full with directive 76 160 EEC on the water quality standards of designated bathing waters.

In 1986 the Welsh water authority embarked upon its 15 year programme of improvements and remedial works to enable listed bathing waters to meet the conditions specified in the EC directive. In 1986, 23 of the 47 listed bathing waters already met the required standard.

Is the Minister aware that the European Commission is deeply dissatisfied with the British Government's failure to operate the directive since 1976? Is he further aware of any discussions that are taking place between the Commission and the Government that will demand that bathing waters in Wales and elsewhere be brought up to standard in less than 10 years? In the case of Wales, where it will cost about £200 million at current prices to bring the bathing waters up to standard, that will not be done over a 15-year period, but could be done in even less than five years if the Commission went to the European Court of Justice.

It seems unlikely that we are in any difficulty with the European Commission on that programme.

Will my hon. Friend assure me that the Government's proposals for the privatisation of water will in no way diminish the already far from adequate investment programme to clean up the beaches?

They will certainly not have any such effect as my hon. Friend fears. It is proposed that the national rivers authority will be responsible for the quality of coastal waters and will, of course, take over the responsibilities of the Welsh Water Authority in that respect.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what criteria he adopts when dealing with applications for opencast mining in Wales by both the public and private sectors.

Applications for planning permission which come before my right hon. Friend are considered on their merits having regard to the provisions of the relevant development plans and all other material considerations, including Government policy as published in circulars or elsewhere.

No doubt the Secretary of State used those criteria in recent announcements about opencast mining. He now has in his possession a report from his inspector concerning Ynys Ffarch Fawr farm. in the Dulais valley. May we expect that the same criteria will be applied to that, particularly as the amount of coal that is to be extracted is insignificant—20,000 tonnes—and the amount of employment is almost non-existent — six people? Will the Minister give an assurance that the same kind of consideration will be given to this application as to those announced this week?

Certainly. The application of the criteria will be the same in every case.

I thank the Minister for his decision about the Llanilid West site in Pencoed. This area has been devastated by opencast mining for some years. I am glad to put on record my thanks for the decision not to proceed with further development in the opencast mining area of Brynna, Llanharan and Llanilid in Pencoed.

I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said. It is an area that I know well, having lived close to it in years past.

Will the Minister accept my thanks, too, for the decision announced on Friday on the Brynhenllys site on the upper Swansea valley, where development would have been intolerable because it went into the Brecon Beacons and was also alongside a close-knit community? Will he also condemn wild statements that were made on Friday by the management of the opencast executive, which stated that the decision would have a devastating effect on deep mining, when it is well known that the criteria for deep mining are applied on a pit-by-pit basis?

The spokesman's response was possibly one of grave disappointment, of the same intensity as the hon. Gentleman's thanks, which are well received on the Government side.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, outside times of emergency, opencast coal mining should be restricted as far as possible to areas of dereliction and should not be allowed where it would destroy grade 1, 2 or 3A agricultural land or distinctive historic landscapes that can never be restored, only rehabilitated?

Those considerations are certainly taken into account now and will be in the future.

Does the Minister appreciate that he is still failing to inform the House about what he is doing to maintain the high standards of health, safety and environmental protection in the working of small sites? What is being done about the long-standing grievance of opencast workers that their terms of employment should compare with the terms of people employed in deep mining?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the point that there is employment in opencast mining and that many hundreds, indeed, thousands of jobs depend on it. That is one of the other aspects that must be taken into consideration when these matters are brought forward.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on progress in reducing unemploymentt in Gwynedd.

Since January 1986 the unemployment rate in Gwynedd has fallen by 4·4 percentage points, the largest such fall for any county in Wales. While the present rate remains too high, this fall confirms that the Government's policies are contributing to a real and worthwhile improvement in the economy of the area.

Does the Secretary of State accept that unemployment levels over large parts of Gwynedd, which generally do not have development area status, are higher than in areas such as Clwyd, which have it? Does he also accept that areas such as Arfon, in the Audit Commission's Shaw classification of social deprivation, categorise themselves with areas such as Merthyr Tydfil? Should there not be a review of regional policy within Wales to ensure that more finance is injected to overcome the unemployment problems in Gwynedd?

I understand the hon. Gentleman's viewpoint, hut, as I am sure he knows, while one must obviously constantly review these matters, if one is changing the map at frequent intervals it makes for an impossible regional policy. There are other ways and methods by which we can give help to an area. Help can be given by, for example, the activities of the Welsh Development Agency. I am glad to say that at the moment there are six WDA units available for letting and that 32 further units are under construction or planned.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to attract employment to Gwynedd and, indeed, to other parts of Wales is by inward investment and that on the face of it it is better to have inward investment from EC countries, where we are likely to get a share of the research and development and do not run the risk of subsidiaries being shut down when there is a recession, than from Japan or the United States.

I have no desire to distinguish between one form of inward investment and another. I am in favour of them all on the maximum that they can be encouraged. My hon. Friend mentioned Japan. It is operating a considerable investment programme into Europe and I am anxious to see that the Principality gets more than its share of that inward investment programme. I agree with my hon. Friend that there is now a great deal of European interest in United Kingdom markets, and I am anxious to see European companies attracted to Wales.

In the case of Gwynedd and other hard hit areas in Wales, is it right that the Government are now undertaking a fresh review of regional policy? Will the Minister give an undertaking to consult Welsh hon. Members before he introduces such a review, because every previous change in regional policy introduced by this Government has hit the parts of Wales that were already hardest hit? Will he consider in any such review the reintroduction of the special development area status which some of the hardest hit areas had and which was taken away by his predecessor?

In the past 16 months unemployment in Wales has fallen by more than in another part of the United Kingdom. I welcome that. I have considerable flexibility in the regional programme. The Principality requires maximum flexibility, and any regional programme to which I agree will have flexibility and, I hope, an increasing volume of expenditure in the future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now respond to the Public Accounts Committee's recent report criticising the management of public funds in relation to several Welsh institutions.

The Government will respond to the Committee of Public Accounts' report in the usual way. A Treasury minute will be published on 28 October.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the accounts of the National museum of Wales were not available for scrutiny by the Court of Governors on Thursday because they still have not been passed by the Welsh Office? Will he tell us when those accounts will be available? Does he agree with the Public Accounts Committee that the Welsh Office has been totally irresponsible and complacent in failing to oversee a considerable amount of public money, when the people of Wales are crying out for money to be spent on education, housing, health and employment?

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her pre-briefing of her supplementary, which appeared in the Western Mail this morning. I am as anxious as she is to ensure the maximum efficiency in all public expenditure, be it the National museum of Wales, the health authorities or the local authorities. We decided that independent consultants should be appointed to carry out the financial management and policy review on the national museum. They were appointed in September, proceeded with all due speed, and are expected to report by the end of the year.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the National museum of Wales has put forward discussion proposals for streamlining its court and its council? Has he noticed that effectively the first part of its proposal would be to remove from its council the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd)?

I have not made any such observation.

Will the Minister ensure that the consultants report not just on the conduct of the national museum authority but on the conduct of the Welsh Office? Does he recognise that salaries make up the major element of the costs of the museum, and is he aware that those Civil Service salaries are set not by the museum authority but by the Government? Will he bear in mind that virtually the whole of the shortfall that has been commented upon publicly has arisen from the failure of the Government and in particular his predecessor to make provision from public funds for the salary increases that the Government have awarded?

I do not agree with that conclusion. I believe, as I think the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) believes, that there is scope for better general and financial management of the museum. The portion of blame with any Government Department as the monitoring Department is something of a delicate nature. If one interferes too much with the detail one is accused of running the national musuem, which the Welsh Office has no desire to do. On the other hand, if one accepts statements as to predictions that then do not take place, one is blamed when they do not take place. It is quite a delicate relationship. All I can say is that in my meetings with the National museum there is a determination to implement the best and most successful financial and general managerial systems, and I hope that that will result.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the levels of grants to students in higher and further education.

In the last 12 months my right hon. Friend has received 29 representations on matters relating to grants for students in higher and further education.

Does the Minister of State not accept that now is the time for him, as the Minister responsible for most of further and higher education in Wales, to look at the whole pattern of student support and also at the funding of places? Is it not time that we were able to plan the whole of post-16 education in Wales as one unit?

I think the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Government are carrying out a review of student grants and that there will be a Green Paper in due course. With regard to looking at the whole of the area, the Welsh advisory body is extremely helpful and is collaborating with the university sector.

Does my hon. Friend agree that most people who go on to university derive enormous financial benefits as a result of their study, and that some system of grants and loans might be fairer to the rest of the community?

I do not think that it would be wise for me to anticipate the contents of the Green Paper.

Will the Minister look carefully at the effect on county education budgets of the financial pressures from central Government in respect of discretionary postgraduate grants? In some cases, counties cannot give grants for postgraduate legal education, thus restricting access to the barrister profession to those whose parents have the necessary money.

I had not noticed a shortage of barristers. We have increased the rate support grant, from which such discretionary grants are made, by 15 per cent. per pupil up to last year.

Does the Minister realise that his first answer, in which he prevaricated on the issue of possible student loans, will cause great disquiet within education circles? Will he bear in mind that students have already had a 21 per cent. cut in their spending power under this Administration? The minimum grant has been abolished, the grant in respect of their costs of travelling to college has been eroded and there has been the presumption of the 207 per cent. increase in the utterly hypothetical parental contribution. Does the Minister realise that there will be grave concern, in the context of a review that is about to take place and in view of his words, because the Government are seen as being not only disinterested in student affairs but as being positively and actively vindictive in their opposition and antipathy towards students?

The right hon. Gentleman should be aware that, between 1985 and 1990, we plan to increase student numbers by 5 per cent. I do not understand how he can say what he did. I must point out to him that this year the student grant increased in line with inflation. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that our grants compare favourably with those available in most other countries. It is certainly not for me to anticipate the contents of the Green Paper.

Would it not be a good idea to make second postgraduate degrees, after a primary degree has been obtained, the subject of student loans? That was the recommendation some years ago from an education sub-committee of which I was a member. Will my hon. Friend consider it?

There is much to be said for student loans of some sort, and I am sure that the matter will be dealt with in the Green Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to provide resources for local education authorities to limit class sizes to a maximum of 25.

No, Sir. Class sizes are a matter for determination by local education authorities in response to local circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that such disingenuous answers fool no one, least of all the British public? Half the money provided by local education authorities comes from the Government and the other half is strictly controlled by the Government in the form of rate support grant. Instead of talking about surplus places, why does the Minister not take a leaf out of the book of the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, who has promised that by next April no one in need of an urgent operation will have to wait for more than a month, and no one in need of a non-urgent operation will have to wait for more than a year? Why can he not produce a simple, straightforward, easily understood criterion for the level and quality of class sizes in Wales? If 25 is too small, will he accept 30?

The reason why I will not be led along that path is that life is not as simple as the hon. Gentleman makes it out to be. He is asking us to impose a policy on local education authorities — [Interruption.] I hear the cries of Opposition Members. They reinforce what I have said, that it is not for us to impose the sort of policy that the hon. Gentleman would wish us to impose on local authorities. There may be perfectly acceptable educational reasons for the wide variations in class sizes within a local education authority. The hon. Gentleman will find his question thoroughly discussed in the recent HMI report on the effects of local authority expenditure on education policy.

Will the Minister extend his reluctance to place constraints and impose policies on local authorities with regard to class size to other aspects of education and non-educational activities such as housing? Is he aware that the answer that he gave earlier expressing a reluctance to impose policies will cause amazement among local authorities, which experience the imposition of policies every day of the week?

This question is about education. The fact is — and we should not forget this — that we have the best pupil-teacher ratio in Wales at the present time, at 17·5 pupils per teacher. We should be proud of that, and that should not be the cause of over-large classes.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the up-to-date position in regard to the proposed Mold bypass.

The result of the traffic surveys undertaken earlier this year have been analysed and further investigations undertaken. These have revealed possible solutions to the traffic problems at Mold in addition to those considered at public consultation early this year. I propose to consult local interests about these alternatives before announcing a preferred route.

Will my hon. Friend, confirm that the Welsh Office will be responding to the following local needs: the need for a line of route acceptable to the residents of Mynydd Isa; the need for an effective solution where the bypass intersects with the A541 so that we do not have traffic congestion along the Chester road and up Wylfa hill; the need for a slip road from the bypass into the Mold business park and most important of all, the need for an early start on the construction of the bypass so that Mold is not disadvantaged in job creation terms in relation to Wrexham and Alyn and Deeside, where road improvements have been proceeding more speedily?

I am sure that all the points made by my hon. Friend will be taken into account before we arrive at a decision. Certainly the April survey proved that there was a need for a bypass and a roundabout at the junction with the A541. We intend, subject to satisfactory procedures and the availability of money, to make a start on the bypass within the time band — that is, before December 1990.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the progress to date of inward investment in Wales; and what are the latest figures of inquiries by overseas companies.

Since WINvest was established in April 1983 to attract inward investment to Wales, a total of 207 projects have been secured from overseas involving over 24,000 jobs and over £760 million of capital investment. WlNvest is dealing with many inquiries at the present time.

Is it not a fact that under successive Governments and particularly under Conservative Governments since 1979, this has been the greatest success story in the whole of the Welsh economy? Does my right hon. Friend expect that success to continue?

I am pleased to say that in recent months we have had visitors from overseas companies averaging three every four working days. My hon. Friend is probably aware that in a few weeks' time I will be going to Japan where I will meet representatives of many companies interested in investing in Wales.

The Minister said earlier with regard to inward investment that he had considerable flexibility. Does not that claimed flexibility make the recent loss of 300 jobs in the Cotton Mill project look hamfisted, maladroit or positively incompetent on the Welsh Office's part? Will he bear in mind that from the outset the Secretary of State for Wales and the Welsh Office knew very well that that project was interested in a site either in Swansea or one in Dundee, but in no other site? The project lost the site to Scotland. Will he bear in mind that there is considerable bitterness in Swansea and Wales that those jobs were lost to Dundee in response to the very development area grants that the Government took from Swansea when they carried out the last review of regional policy?

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman spoke as he did. I agree that he spoke in the same tone as that of the leader of the Swansea council. This morning I met representatives of Tootal, who confirmed to me that they have made no decision whatsoever about the siting of the plant. Therefore, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman check his facts for once. I hope that he will also carefully consider the fact that the so-called incompetent Welsh Office, to which he constantly refers, has made an offer in the Swansea area amounting to between £7·5 million and £9 million. The Chinese firm and its British partners are willing to put in only £4·6 million. I think that the right hon. Gentleman should more carefully consider how wise it is to spend Government money to the benefit of Swansea.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what percentage his Department has increased its annual grant to Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin since 1979.

Since 1979–80 support for Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin has increased by 304 per cent., an increase in real terms of 132 per cent.

I greatly welcome my hon. Friend's reply. Will he join me in paying tribute to the excellence of Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, which does wonderful work in promoting the cause of the Welsh language? Does it not underline the Government's commitment to the future of the Welsh language?

I am happy to join my hon. Friend in commending the work of Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Since 1979, we have enabled it to increase its groups from 280 to 720. Its full-time staff numbers have increased from seven to 11. It is doing a first-class job. It is typical of many voluntary organisations which, with Government support, are working for the Welsh language.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on his last official visit to the Duchy.

My last official Duchy duties outside London took place on 24 July, when I received her Majesty and the Duke of Edinburgh on the Duchy estate at Crewe. Also, that evening, I hosted a reception given for 250 magistrates at the start of their summer conference at Lancaster university.

My right hon. and learned Friend will always be welcome in the north-west. His honest and forthright manner is well appreciated. When he makes his next visit, will he please travel by air from London to Manchester? As he is ushered to his seat by a young stewardess in British Airways blue or British Caledonian tartan, will he contemplate what would be the effects on that excellent service if all competition were removed? When he gets to Manchester, now British Airways' second most important base, will he consider how bad the effects would be if Lord King, through British Caledonian, got his hands on Gatwick, unless all Manchester's licensing restraints were swept away and true competition were allowed to permit that excellent airport to develop its full potential?

I am glad to say that I visit Manchester fairly regularly and try to keep in touch with, among other things, the working of the inner city task force in Moss-side. I usually go by train; I rarely fly — I apologise for that. The Government have given considerable support to Manchester airport in recent years and will continue to do so. However, my hon. Friend will understand that I cannot possibly comment on the proposed merger between BA and BCal until we have the report of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission in our hands.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many people are currently employed by the Duchy.

Sixty one, Sir.

When my right hon. and learned Friend next visits the Duchy to see employment there, perhaps he will stop en route, whether he travels by rail or air, and see what is happening in Bolton. Will he see for himself the large investment schemes which are creating many thousands of jobs and which are justifying Bolton's claim to be the most enterprising town in Britain?

It must be over a year since my hon. Friend last persuaded me to visit Bolton to see one of the schemes which he was promoting and which was encouraging employment for long-term unemployed people in the town. I welcome the opportunity of going there again as soon as I can and seeing the continued work of Bolton Business Venture, the enterprise agency, and that of my hon. Friend. I am delighted that all the efforts are paying off. I am told that unemployment in the Bury and Bolton travel-to-work area is 2·4 per cent. down on the level 12 months ago, althought we all appreciate that it has to go much further.

asked the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what representations the commissioners have made in relation to the effects on the staff of the church for which they are responsible of the proposed poll tax.

The Church Commissioners have worked closely with the churches main committee, which has made representations to Her Majesty's Government on behalf of all the major denominations. Those representations have emphasised the loss of charitable relief on domestic rates and the serious financial implications of the proposed community charge for the churches.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Church Commissioners to congratulate the Government on doing what many thought was impossible — uniting Jew, Hindu, Muslim and Christian under one banner against the threat of this unjust poll tax on their churches, synagogues, mosques, temples and all places of worship? Will he also make representations to ensure that the Bible, the Koran, and other religious works will not be hit by the VAT which the Government will allow to be imposed on all written documents?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman prepared his supplementary question before he heard my reply. If he had waited he would have learnt that the churches main committee is consulting the Government to see whether some relief can be made available to the churches. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary, which he composed in advance of my reply, is therefore redundant.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the staff and others involved in the churches have a vote in local authority matters and enjoy the services provided by local authorities in a measure equal to other citizens? Does he therefore agree that it is only equitable and just that all people in a local authority area should be able to vote and should pay their share?

That is a very fair comment. Clergy do not pay domestic rates and they will not pay the community charge. The community charge will be paid on their behalf by the churches, and that is one of the reasons why we are consulting the Government.

asked the right hon. Member for Ashton under Lyme, answering on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission, if he will give details of the occasions since 1984 when the Public Accounts Commission has modified, under section 4(2) of the National Audit Act 1983, the estimate prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General so as to provide for an increase in the number of staff employed in the National Audit Office.

(on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission): I have been asked to reply on this occasion.

Will my right hon. Friend list those PAC reports for which the Government still have not—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman refer briefly to his notes rather than reading from them?

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the failure to put the reports before the House is a denial of parliamentary scrutiny? Does my right hon Friend concede that if additional staff were available for the National Audit Office the House could scrutinise the expenditure of the nationalised industries, M 15 and M16, as well as the special employment schemes, which do not currently come within the PAC remit?

It is, of course, a fact that the National Audit Office has difficulty in recruiting and keeping its staff, mainly because of the salary levels offered in the City, among other places. We have the further problem that nationalised industries lie outside our remit, as defined by the National Audit Act. What we can do is to ask the sponsoring Departments to come before us so that we can question them. However, we do not have direct entry into the nationalised industries? Some people think that that is a pity, but legislation is required to enable the PAC and the National Audit Office to have that entry.

Will my right hon. Friend congratulate Sir Gordon Downey on his retirement? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the feeling abroad that Sir Gordon's successor should come from outside the Civil Service and from the private sector? If the problem of attracting anyone from the private sector is pay, will my right hon. Friend put it to the Prime Minister that the salary scale for the Comptroller and Auditor General should be substantially increased so that we can attract people of the calibre necessary to ensure that the Department is run effectively?

I am happy to pay tribute to the Comptroller and Auditor General, Sir Gordon Downey, who has been outstanding and a most effective Officer of the House of Commons. He set up the National Audit Office in a way which has commended itself to the whole of the Public Accounts Committee and the Public Accounts Commission. In relation to his replacement, there are problems about salary levels which are different in the public service from those which apply outside. That has caused some problems of which my hon. Friend will be aware. These are matters for further negotiation.

My right hon. Friend seemed to suggest that there would be no independent audit for important nationalised industries such as the British Steel Corporation. That being so, how can we have faith in the assessment of performance of plants within the corporation, such as Ravenscraig, other than by believing what we are told by Ministers or BSC management? As it is widely held in Scotland that both BSC management and Ministers are intent on the closure of Ravenscraig, how can we have faith in any assessment that Ravenscraig is losing money compared with any other BSC plant?

Accountability lies with the Minister of the sponsoring Department coming to the House of Commons. As I said earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General does not have direct rights to investigate the books and accounts of those nationalised industries. It would require further legislation to do that. Of course, that could be done by a private Member's Bill, if one were considered, but how far it would proceed in the House would be something for the Leader of the House and others to take into account.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will arrange to provide cancer screening facilities for all those who work in the Palace of Westminster.

I see no reason to go against the unanimous advice of the Services Committee in 1986, when it recommended that on-site cancer screening facilities should not for the time being be provided for women working at the Palace. Female staff are encouraged to undergo regular screening, using the facilities that exist in the community.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer, but I do not accept it. Following the report published in February last year, it was discovered that the local screening facilities would not accept block bookings, and given the unsocial hours involved, the three-month waiting list is not good enough, as women cannot then use the recess. Given that Reckitt and Coleman, ICI, Plessey, Rowntree, British Bakeries and Birds Eye all provide on-site cancer screening facilities, why cannot we, as collective employers of all the female staff who work in the Palace, seek to open up the issue once again? Frankly, having read the report, as did many of my hon. Friends, in my view the matter was not gone into in sufficient detail, given the inquiries that were made afterwards.

It is always possible to look at these things again. As the hon. Gentleman may know, an on-site screening programme will be provided in mid-November for the female staff of another place. Those results will be studied with interest. We shall also await a full evaluation of an experimental screening programme for women civil servants in Cardiff funded by the Council of Civil Service Unions.

Given that the facilities are not available in the community, although the Lord Privy Seal seems to think that they are, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman should look at the latest statistics, which show that the Government's programme will not be on stream by March 1988. What are women supposed to do in the meantime—die?

I am advised that all health authorities, including Riverside, which covers the Westminster area, are expected to have implemented computerised call and recall systems for cervical screening by next spring.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he has recently visited the working accommodation of hon. Members in the Cloisters.

Yes, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that working conditions in the House are deplorable? In our room in the Cloisters we must stand on top of the writing desk to open a window, we have 5½ sq yd of working floor space, and our research assistants and secretaries must run like greyhounds from St. Stephen's to carry papers to and fro. Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that the room of the former hon. Member for Billericay is still lying empty, while my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) is wandering about like Moses? Because of the build-up in frustration among hon. Members, we are thinking about taking over where Guy Fawkes left off.

It is almost a prerequisite for holding my present job to have had a desk for a time in the Cloisters, as I did some years ago. I accept that accommodation is not fully adequate, but the provision of adequate accommodation for hon. Members and their secretaries is not a new problem. Many hon. Members will, I am sure, agree that the facilities have been greatly improved in the last 15 to 20 years. For instance, we now have 417 desks for secretaries, compared to 199 in 1971; we have 262 single rooms for Members, compared to 164 in 1971; and we have 705 Members' writing desks, compared to 525 in 1971. As the hon. Gentleman will know, work is in hand to improve the facilities further.

Echoing what has just been said, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that some of us are extremely pleased with the progress that has been made by him, and by his predecessors on both sides of the House who have been Leaders of the House, in providing accommodation, given the limitations of the building and its immediate area? Does he accept, however, that one difficulty ought to be attended to in due course; namely, that secretaries of Members in different parties share rooms? In the interests of hon. Members on both sides of the House, should they not be segregated wherever possible?

I shall certainly take note of my hon. Friend's last point. I am grateful to him, as will be those members of the staff of the House who are working very hard to try to improve the position in what are, admittedly, difficult circumstances.

Does the Leader of the House not agree that, even if we accept that the new Secretary of State for Social Services needs a vast horde of civil servants to look after him in the Richmond terrace development, the space not taken up by the Department of Health and Social Security could provide single rooms for at least 36 Members of Parliament immediately, as well as space for their secretarial staff? Does he not agree that it would be better to use that surplus space for them than to use it for a few assorted staff from the Cabinet Office, the Welsh Office and the Inland Revenue, as is at present intended?

It was never intended that Richmond terrace should be available for Members and staff. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that a major scheme for lleW parliamentary accommodation is already in progress on the site adjoining the Palace.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the office accommodation of hon. Members and of hon. Member's secretaries.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that my predecessor gave him on 9 February 1987. The situation has not changed significantly since then, but I hope that it will be eased with the completion of Cannon row, which is expected in 1988.

Like everyone else, I welcome improvements in conditions for hon. Member's secretaries. However, I would ask for much greater improvements. Secretaries often have to work with an impossible shortage of space, and against cacophonic noise from the typewriters of other secretaries in the office. How can they answer telephones and hold proper conversations in such conditions? Could offices be soundproofed, and could county hall be brought into the operation?

Responsibility for the disposal of county hall falls to the London residuary body, not to the Government. However, I am sure that the Services Committee will take into account all the available buildings in the vicinity of the Palace of Westminister when considering ways of improving accommodation facilities. I shall certainly discuss with the Services Committee the point that my hon. Friend has raised.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will review the arrangements for the accountability to the House of the Scottish Law Officers.

No, Sir. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the written answer by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfries (Sir H. Monro) on 26 June 1987.

The Lord Privy Seal will be well aware of the admittedly not unprecedented, but nevertheless unsatisfactory, position in which neither of the Scottish Law Officers is personally accountable in the House. Does he not accept that it is most regrettable that that unsatisfactory position has been compounded by the fact that we no longer have a specified period, such as the last 10 minutes of Scottish Question Time, in which the Ministers designated to answer questions on behalf of the Law Officers can be called to account? At present, all questions to the Law Officers go into the ballot, and it may be months before there is an opportunity to air some very sensitive and important issues in the House.

The same practice has been adopted as on previous occasions when there were no Scottish Law Officers in the House. Questions to the Lord Advocate have an equal chance, with others, of receiving an oral answer, and the time allocated to Scottish Questions is unchanged. I believe that to be generally acceptable to the House, although I recognise that the hon. Gentleman does not accept that to be so.

asked the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what was the cost to the Church Commissioners in respect of the value added tax charged on the repairs of their buildings in the last year; and what effect this has had on their programme for the repair of such buildings.

The Church Commissioners paid over £½m VAT on building repairs in 1986. This adds to the overall cost of repairs and takes up funds which might otherwise be used for the support of the clergy.

Nearly three quarters of Church of England churches are listed. As it is generally accepted that the most beneficial thing that could be done to promote the conservation of listed buildings would be to remove VAT on repairs and as Government Ministers are hiding behind the excuse that they cannot change this because they are tied to European Community regulations, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Church Commissioners ought to get their act together with their counterparts in EEC countries and impress upon the European Commission and the European Parliament the need for change? Is it not appropriate that that should be done in this European Architectural Heritage Year?

I have a very great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend's desire that the churches should have more funds with which to pay stipends and that they should have to contribute less to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I am bound to tell him that as the approaches to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of obtaining a reduction have hitherto proved fruitless, the idea of leading a successful campaign to the European Community, involving all the churches and others, is an even more daunting and, I suspect. an even more profitless, prospect.