To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will provide the figures for each of the last eight years for (a) the average number of jobs per 10,000 sq ft of Welsh Development Agency advance factory space projected, at the time of letting, to be created within three years, and (b) the average number of jobs now actually in existence per 10,000 sq ft of Welsh Development Agency advance factory space.

I have placed a copy of the detailed figures in the Library of the House. Since 1980 the annual average number of jobs projected is about 38 per 10,000 sq ft of advance factory space to be achieved when the lettings have reached their full potential, which really takes some years. The actual number of jobs created to date already exceeds 30 per 10,000 sq ft.

Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the greatest problems in projecting the value for money to be obtained from expenditure on regional aid is the difference between performance and reality? Does he further agree that his extraordinary claim last week that he was increasing the allocation of regional aid, when in fact he was cutting it, was one of the worst frauds ever perpetrated on the people of Wales and that it combined the worst aspects of door-to-door salesmanship with the persistence of Jehovah Witnesses, although not many of those witnesses claim to be Jehovah?

I delight in the way in which the Labour party in Wales is distressed at every big piece of good news for the Principality. It is remarkable, in view of the biggest increase in regional aid in any single year in real terms and in cash, to find the hon. Gentleman so distressed. I am delighted to say that his constituents will not be.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on achieving a 40 per cent. increase in the amount of regional aid for Wales. As the Welsh Development Agency is having to deal with an apparently insatiable demand for new factory space, particularly in Cardiff and south Wales, this must be of tremendous assistance and will offer great opportunities to continue the economic regeneration that the Government have begun so well.

In fairness my hon. Friend should consider that on the Sunday before the announcement the Opposition spokesman spent the whole day announcing the impending reduction in regional aid. Therefore, when it was increased by 40 per cent. the Opposition were very distressed indeed.

If my memory serves me right, the Secretary of State said last week that an extra £50 million-plus would be allocated to the Welsh Development Agency. Can the Secretary of State say how much of that money will be allocated to Mid Wales Development?

Of course, the mid-Wales area gains advantage from the activities of the Welsh Development Agency as well as from Mid Wales Development. I have increased the Mid Wales Development allocation by a further £1·5 million, which is an increase of about 20 per cent.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his announcement that total Government provision for the WDA and WlNvest is to be increased by 30 per cent.—about one third—in the coming financial year has been particularly welcomed in Clwyd where, due to the economic upturn, the vacancy rate on WDA estates has fallen well below 10 per cent. — a level at which our ability to attract investment can be impaired?

The announcement has been welcomed not only in Clywd but by trade union leaders, industrial leaders and commercial leaders. The only people who do not welcome it are those in the Labour party.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the number of people employed in WDA factories has gone down in recent years? Should not the Government be setting employment targets for companies that occupy WDA factories? In view of the downward trend, is the Secretary of State not positively alarmed by the report of the independent organisation Manpower, which said after a survey that job prospects for Wales in 1988 are worse than for any other region of Britain?

If the hon. Gentleman would like to take a wager on the result in 1988 I shall willingly take it from him—perhaps for a mutually agreed charity. If Wales is the worst of any region, perhaps he will give a donation to that charity. I know that the hon. Gentleman, with his usual happy outlook, will be delighted at the fact that the biggest fall in unemployment in Wales since the second world war has taken place in the past 12 months.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he intends to review his policies with regard to the Welsh language.

My right hon. Friend and I are presently engaged in wide-ranging discussions about the Welsh language. In the light of these we shall consider how the balanced, positive approach pursued by the Government since 1979 might be further developed and the opportunity to learn the language can be extended.

Will not parental choice be the real motivation for choosing the Welsh language, provided it wins friends and influences people, rather than alienates people through vicious demonstration? How much are the Government spending on the Welsh language to sustain and nurture it?

My hon. Friend is right. He will know that the fundamental principle underlying the Education Act 1944 is that children should be educated according to parental choice, and that is the line we are pursuing. With regard to support for the language, we are spending some £1,164,000 under section 26 of the Development of Rural Wales Act and £1,735,000 under section 21 of the Education Act 1980 this year, but that is not the limit of Government support. We support the Welsh language through the entire education system and through the television channel.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the history of the past seven or eight years has demonstrated very clearly his marvellous exertions on behalf of the Welsh language? Does he appreciate that we recognise that fact and hold him in high esteem?

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that unsolicited tribute. He is absolutely right in saying that our Welsh language policy has been very successful and is accepted and approved of by people of moderate and sensible opinion in Wales. I contrast that with the position of the Labour party, which does not appear to have a policy.

Is the Minister aware that there is a genuine welcome for the Welsh language panel of eight people appointed before Christmas, albeit that there is neither a woman nor a teacher on the panel? Will he clarify the remarks that he made on a Radio Cymru broadcast before Christmas about the panel's work? Will he state categorically that, contrary to what he said, it will be part of the panel's remit to look at the Bills introduced by Lord Prys-Davies and myself, about which consultation has taken place?

I am sorry if I gave that impression; it was certainly not my intention. The group will be considering the proposals that the hon. Gentleman and Lord Prys-Davies put forward. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would he the first to recognise that things have moved on since that consultation, and we are legislating on educational aspects covered in his Bill.

Does the Minister agree that, rather than dismiss the Labour party's efforts in support of the Welsh language, he ought to be congratulating us? It was one of his Labour predecessors, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), who gave grants to local authorities to support and maintain the Welsh language, and it is the Labour-controlled local authorities in south Wales which have adopted and implemented the policies of developing the Welsh language. Does the Minister agree that, instead of criticising the Labour party for not having a policy, he should be generous enough to accept that the Labour party is fully committed to the Welsh language, and has been for many years?

Of course I accept what the hon. Gentleman says, but I cannot but notice that that statement was made by him rather than by anybody from his Front Bench. If the Front-Bench Members have a policy, perhaps they would care to declare it.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people will be liable to pay the proposed community charge in Wales in comparison with those presently liable for rates.

The object of the community charge is to spread the responsibility for the 15 per cent. of local government spending that will come from the domestic contribution to all adults and not just to the householders, so 2·1 million adults will be liable compared with 1·1 million present ratepayers.

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that in every district of Mid Glamorgan, which is the county with the worst social and economic deprivation in Wales, every household will be worse off? We noticed the Secretary of State's obvious displeasure and distaste when he commended the Second Reading to the House last December. When he went against his better judgment and voted for the Bill, did he do so to advance his personal ambition, or from fear of the Prime Minister?

Both, probably. As I was able to point out, the community charge will be a fairer, better system for Wales. The hon. Gentleman's allegation that every household in his constituency will be worse off is a load of nonsense. Many of his constituents, particularly one-parent families, widows and a load of people who had an unfair burden in the past, will greatly benefit from the changes. In addition, as I pointed out in my answer, as only 15 per cent. of local government expenditure in Wales will come from the community charge, we can organise the needs element in Wales to ensure perfect fairness. That is why I supported the Second Reading happily and I am glad to say that it was cheered loudly from these Benches.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in Aberfan, Treharris, Rhymney and Merthyr Vale more than three quarters of the householders are likely to be losers under the so-called poll tax? In the name of heaven, what is the case for increasing costs on some of the poorest householders? I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was supposed to be a "One Nation" Tory, but there is no evidence of it in this case.

On Second Reading I pointed out that this depends wholly on the needs element that operates when the community charge is introduced. In the past the hon. Gentleman has given me figures about the poverty of many of his constituents. The basis of the rebate scheme and the nationally spread rebate for those on low incomes may well substantially improve the lot of a number of his most poverty-stricken constituents.

May I put it to my right hon. Friend that if we were not to move to the community charge, and were to persist with this manifestly unfair rating system, there would have to be a revaluation of all properties and that the greatest rate demands would be likely to fall on the lower-priced houses, particularly in the valleys of south Wales?

The manner and method of operating the community charge will be perfectly good and sensible for Wales. It will remove a great deal of the considerable hardship that one-parent families and others like them have suffered in the past.

Does the Secretary of State realise that although it is bad enough that the poll tax will mean massive increases for the people in the valley communities, it also has an industrial context? The Secretary of State will recollect that last week he produced his future strategy for employment in the valley communities based purely on small firms, although he cut capital grants to one fifth of what they are now. In that context, will he confirm that the combined effect of the poll tax, the unified business rate and revaluation will be twice as great on small firms as on medium-sized and large firms? How, therefore, does he reconcile his employment aims, as stated last week, with the lower capital incentives of the regional policy and the higher costs implicit in his changes in the rating system?

That is a load of nonsense. I now have more money with more flexibility than ever before to encourage small and large firms. Before the right hon. Gentleman makes these pronouncements he should study the facts. Small firms in the valleys will benefit from many of last week's announcements. They will also have available through the WDA and selective assistance every possible inducement and incentive available to larger firms. The combination of our policies is undoubtedly good for the valleys. On the rating system — I should have thought that this was to the hon. Gentleman's delight —I announced that if there was any shift of emphasis it would be to the benefit of Swansea as opposed to Cardiff.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairmen of health authorities in Wales; and what subjects were discussed.

I met the Welsh health auhorities chairmen's committee on 23 November 1987. The main subjects discussed were cash management, locum agencies, medical staff matters, competitive tendering, waiting lists and community health councils.

Having had that meeting, the Secretary of State will be as well aware as we are that the problem in the Health Service in Wales is underfunding by the Government. Is he prepared to tell us today that he will provide the funding required by the area health authorities? Is he aware that Mid Glamorgan alone is looking for at least £4·6 million to prevent beds being closed? Alternatively, will the Secretary of State have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that money is invested in the Health Service rather than given away in tax benefits? Does he agree that it is no use taxpayers having tax benefits today if they are going to be dead tomorrow because they do not have the service that should be provided by the NHS?

rose—

I have not finished yet.

Briefly.

I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) last week accused the Prime Minister of having blood on her hands with regard to the Health Service. I hope that it is not rubbing off on the Secretary of State.

We had a good and constructive meeting with the chairmen of the area health authorities, as I believe they will confirm. The figures that I have announced for the Helth Service in the coming year show quite a substantial increase. When considering these factors and claiming that the Health Service is underfunded, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that Health Service expenditure in Wales next year will be £1,238 per household compared with £418 in 1978–79.

What is the increase in real terms?

In real terms it is an increase of 39 per cent., so it ill becomes the Opposition to condemn what has been done.

What formula is being applied to the closure of NHS beds and wards in relation to the increasing number of private beds, which seems to militate against NHS provision very seriously indeed?

With regard to the availability of beds, the most important measure is the number of patients treated, which this year is at an all-time record level and massively greater than a few years ago. I believe that that trend will continue. That is the important judgment.

Did my right hon. Friend discuss with the chairmen of the health authorities the number of new hospitals built in Wales in the past few years and the increased number of patients being treated? Did he reassure the chairmen that his priorities include, not just the number of beds at any given time, but the number of people receiving quality treatment from the Health Service? Did he receive positive answers from the chairmen, and was he able to reassure them on all those points?

Yes, Sir. In the past 10 years there has been considerable capital investment in new hospitals in Wales, but that does not remove the anxiety of a person who has to wait to see a consultant or to be admitted for an operation. Anyone who knows people with such problems will appreciate their anxiety. There is room for greater efficiency in the Health Service. There is also a need for increased capital and current expenditure. Both needs are being met.

In view of that very encouraging reply, will the Secretary of State give a guarantee that no woman in the future will go through the experience of some women in south Wales who have had to wait up to 83 days from confirmation of cervical carcinoma to gain admission for treatment at Singleton hospital in Swansea and Felindre hospital in Cardiff?

I am sure that at any time after the last war, and since the creation of the National Health Service, one could indentify ghastly individual cases that have not received attention. However, that is not likely always to be the position. For example, there is a question on the Order Paper today to which I will make a written reply. That question asks me for the comparative figures for waiting lists between 1978 and the present day. Significantly, the hon. Gentleman concerned asked for the figures from March 1978 and not March 1979. I will also provide the figures for March 1979, because they show the massive deterioration that took place in that 12 months.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the considerable concern in Pembrokeshire where, according to the Welsh Office's figures, the authority is 5·2 per cent. below the Yates' formula? Will he also bear in mind that some health authorities are not only overfunded on the Yates' formula, but overspent? Pembrokeshire, which is a very good and most efficient authority, is converned that it is losing out.

All the area chairmen whom I met, without exception, wanted to improve financial control and managerial competence. We must give careful consideration to the quality of staff that the chairmen need to recruit for those purposes.

Will the Secretary of State ask the chairman of Gwynedd health authority to conduct an inquiry into reports that, following the closure of a maternity ward at St. David's hospital, Bangor on Wednesday of last week, expectant mothers were unable to gain admission to that hospital and mothers who had given birth were unable to return to wards? Will he bear in mind that a happy and fulfilling time for many families was turned into a distressing experience for them and for the staff who had to care for them? When he next meets the chairman of the health authority, will he discuss with her the level of funding needed for the authority to ensure that such a distressing experience does not happen again?

As we know, further allocations for the last months of this year have been given to all authorities, including Gwynedd. I shall certainly put to the authority chairman the points that the hon. Gentleman has made.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is much evidence of increased longevity throughout the free world and that, however the systems of health and hospitals are funded, the new and expensive treatments are creating strains for health services?

Yes, Sir. That is bound to happen because of the major breakthroughs. For example, the figures for hip operations have been transformed over the years because of the changes in the medical profession. The number of elderly people is increasing. However, we must all understand that the need to have proper treatment, if it is available, is a natural aspiration of every family. I shall repeat the figures and state that when we came to office £8 a week was spent per household in Wales, and the figure is now £24. That is a substantial improvement.

Despite what the Secretary of State says, will he confirm that the rate of increase in expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales under this Administration is little more than a half of what it was under the Labour Administration? As the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave £6,000 million in tax cuts last year and is apparently going to give at least the same figure this year in his next Budget, is the right hon. Gentleman not ashamed that all that he could offer the Health Service in Wales and the beleaguered health authorities was £3·8 million extra this year and a standstill on finances for next year? Will he bear in mind that because of the cash crisis in our chest, kidney dialysis and acute services, with up to four-year waiting lists, we want the Chancellor to use all the resources not further to enrich the already wealthy, but to save the Health Service for our people?

I find that a bit thick coming from the right hon. Gentleman. He sat silently as a Minister in the Government who made the biggest cuts in the capital investment programme in the Health Service of any post-war Government. He sat there without a whimper, complaint or a single word. If he is proud of the fact that when the Labour Government left office they were spending £8 per week per household in comparison to our £24 a week, I find that very surprising.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many pupils in Wales do not receive instruction in Welsh as a first or second language at the ages of (a)seven, (b) 12 and (c) 15 years.

The latest available figures, for September 1986, show that 74 per cent. of 12-year-olds and 27 per cent. of 15-year-olds were receiving instruction in Welsh either as a first or as a second language. Comparable figures are not available for children aged seven, but for primary children as a group, that is aged five to 11, 66 per cent. were receiving instruction in Welsh.

Does the Minister intend to carry out a crash programme to ensure that there are more teachers of the Welsh language, so that all children in Wales will have the opportunity to learn Welsh?

The hon. Gentleman will know that we have some 2,500 teachers in Wales who can speak Welsh, but do not teach through the medium of Welsh. We have been encouraging them with in-service training to enable them to use Welsh as their medium of instruction.

Does the Minister accept that the key time for instruction in Welsh and in other European languages is at nursery and primary level? Will he tackle seriously the issue of linguistic skills in Wales, by ensuring that the skills that have been developed in bilingual teaching at primary level are extended and other European languages are added to them, to ensure that children in Wales have the same linguistic skills as those in any other part of the European Community?

That is my desire, too, but let us not underestimate the point made in my answer to the question, that 66 per cent. of our primary school children receive instruction in Welsh. I think that the hon. Gentleman will be fair enough to admit that, although we should not be complacent about that figure, it is certainly very encouraging. I agree with what he said about children at nursery school age. We owe a considerable debt to Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, which has prospered and extended its activities under this Government.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for maintaining a close relationship between individual schools in Wales and their local community, and to ensure full community use of school buildings in holiday periods, at weekends and in the evenings.

Our policy remains that while the use of school buildings for community use is desirable, the extent to which it takes place must be a matter for local education authorities and school governors.

Does the Minister agree that the best of local authorities in Wales have sought to maximise the community use of buildings and to maintain a proper balance between community needs and the direct educational needs of the schools? Does he agree that that careful balance is under threat with the Government's impending education legislation? Will he give an assurance that safeguards will be built in to ensure that that balance is maintained in future?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman that the balance is under threat. I assure him that the position is as follows. Under the Education (No. 2) Act 1986, school governing bodies are required to have regard to the desirability of school premises being available for community use, but there is no duty imposed on them to provide for such cases. That is the position now. Of course, under the current Education Reform Bill, there is the possibility of community use of school buildings, but their primary purpose is as school buildings, and we have no intention whatsoever of interfering with the duties of the governing bodies of such schools. It is up to them to maximise the use that they make of their school buildings for community purposes.

As playing fields and recreational facilities have been paid for out of the public purse, will the Minister undertake to ensure that those facilities are withheld from public use by opted out schools?

I have made the position clear. We are currently discussing the issue, which features in the Education Reform Bill. As the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) knows only too well, we are coming up to those clauses which deal with financial delegation to schools. I am sure that the fundamental principle—that the buildings were built primarily for school use—will remain effective, but it will be up to governing bodies to maximise their community use.

Does the Minister agree, first, that the most community-orientated schools in Wales are the small village schools and, secondly, that, in general, the best primary education in Wales is provided by small village schools?

I have no great difficulty in agreeing with either of those propositions.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the most recent annual number of babies or young children diagnosed as suffering from congenital heart defects or heart disease (a) in East Dyfed and (b) in Wales.

The most recent information available in relation to the notification of congenital malformation indicates that, in 1986, five children in East Dyfed and 57 children in Wales were notified as having been born with heart or circulatory system malformation.

I find those figures quite incredible. I am sure that the true figures are far higher. The Minister is aware that there are no facilities in Wales to treat children with congenital heart defects and that, whenever they require surgery, they are flown to Bristol, Southampton, or London. Since 1981 the Government have accepted that a paediatric cardiology unit should be set up in Cardiff al the Heath hospital. However, year after year, we have had only promises that it will be set up. May we have an assurance that that unit will be set up during 1988?

Briefly, please.

During the Christmas recess I met the parents of Stefan Jones from Napier, who, at eight months, was diagnosed as having a hole in the heart. Now, at five years of age—

Briefly, please.

What does the Secretary of State have to say to Stefan Jones?

There is no doubt that babies and their parents in such circumstances are in a most distressing position. It is also fair to observe that the operations about which we are talking are, on the whole, extremely expensive, extremely skilled and relatively new, so I could not honestly accuse Labour of not having provided these facilities. I hope, however, that the hon. Gentleman accepts that we are doing our best to bring such facilities to Cardiff. The Royal College of Physicians is to carry out a suvey of cardiac facilities in south Wales, and the South Glamorgan health authority is advertising for a consultant in this area.

Does the Minister agree that it is lack of quality nursing care that results in delays in operations for hole-in-the-heart patients such as my constituent, Mrs. Keenan, who wrote to me this week saying that twice she had been prepared for surgery at the University hospital of Wales, Cardiff and twice she had been told that the operation was off because of a lack of nursing staff and beds? Do the Government realise what anxiety and stress this causes already very sick patients? Surely there is no sense in the Government's reducing spending on nurses' training, as they have in each year since 1979.

I am sure the hon. Lady will also accept that the number of nurses in Wales has increased under this Government by about 3,000. She might, therefore, see the sense of trying to re-order the pay structure so that people are prepared to take on the special skills required in areas such as those about which she has spoken.

Does the Minister appreciate that people expect something more than crocodile tears from him? There is now serious concern about the lack of urgency associated with providing these badly needed facilities for young children. Can he imagine the expense and inconvenience of taking a young child to Southampton or to London? When will we have such facilities in Wales? Is this not yet another example of underfunding the NHS?

Not at all. I think that the hon. Gentleman does a disservice to the medical profession that provides such skills. As I said in my answer, 57 children fell into this category at the last count in South Wales. That is a small but desperately important number, which helps to explain some of the problems that are faced.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether there will be an incentive funding scheme for the public library service in Wales to match the £750,000 scheme announced by the Office of Arts and Libraries for England; and if he will make a statement.

I intend to observe the progress of this innovatory scheme in England and in the light of that consider whether a similar scheme might be appropriate for Wales.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House for how long he intends to observe the progress of the scheme in England? Does he agree that it could be of particular benefit to the two joint authority schemes currently under consideration in Wales: the future development of the Welsh regional library service, and the development of a regional business information scheme based on the National Library of Wales?

The current scheme involves an expenditure of some £250,000, as opposed to the £750,000 mentioned in my hon. Friend's question, and it is over a period of three years. We shall very soon see whether a similar scheme would be appropriate for Wales. Meanwhile, we expect the library authorities in Wales to be alive to the need to promote co-operation and collaboration, as the scheme will, we hope, do in England. We are currently considering the business information service to be provided by the National Library on a regional basis, and my right hon. Friend is giving it very active consideration.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the commissioners' policy towards the commissioning of anonymous prefaces to Crockford's Clerical Directory, and if he will make a statement.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the policy of the commissioners towards the commissioning of anonymous prefaces to Crockford's Clerical Directory, and if he will make a statement.

The Church Commissioners and the Central Board of Finance took over the publication of Crockford's from the Oxford University Press in 1984. It had been a long-standing position to include in each edition an anonymous preface in which the author was given complete freedom to express his personal views. Although some earlier prefaces had proved controversial, the extent of the controversy over the current edition is clearly quite exceptional, and, in the circumstances, the commissioners and the Central Board of Finance will be reviewing the arrangements to be made for future editions.

May I pay tribute to the late Dr. Gareth Bennett, whom I knew for over 20 years, for his mastery of theology, his erudition and his warm and compassionate personality? May I ask my right hon. Friend whether Crockford's prefaces, which have been so valuable over the years, will continue, and whether the Church Commissioners will consider giving their authors the option to be open or anonymous? If anonymity is chosen, will it be respected in all circumstances?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's kind and well-judged words about the late Dr. Gareth Bennett, and I am sure that what he has said will be widely appreciated, at least in Church of England circles.

As a background to the affair, does my right hon. Friend agree that, up and down the country, thousands of parish priests are selflessly giving dedicated service to their parishioners, but that many feel that their work is being undermined by a handful of politically motivated bishops?

My hon. Friend has switched the target slightly from the anonymous author of the Crockford's preface, now known to be Dr. Bennett, to the bishops of the Church of England. I entirely endorse his view that the heart and soul of the Church of England are the millions of parishioners who get on with the daily work of Christian living and worshipping in their parish churches. As for my hon. Friend's more controversial point about the bishops, I am only too glad when conservative bishops speak out in a Conservative frame. However, controversy has always been a feature of the Christian religion.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to say that the preface was a serious piece of work which the Church would do well to consider carefully at its next meeting of Synod and beyond? Does he agree that having a preface that is unsigned can led to unfortunate consequences when the person has to lie about whether he is the author? Should the Church not take that into account when it considers the next edition?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his contribution to this point. As he knows, he featured personally in the preface. In weighing the points that he has made, I should point out that Dr. Bennett was at pains in the preface to praise and laud the standard and tradition of anonymity, which he said he found useful and helpful. At the same time, if it leads to anonymous authors having to repudiate their authorship by lying, the Church Commissioners will obviously have to consider that point in the future.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the importance here is the substance of the preface, not whether it was anonymous, which is no concern of the House? In view of the present difficulties of the Church, does my right hon. Friend also agree that, although some of us may criticise the hierarchy from time to time, it surely behoves us to do all that we can to back up the good and godly men who deal with Church of England affairs?

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend's comments. In this case, the preface to Crockford's was an exceptionally vigorous and stimulating analysis of a wide range of issues, including the wider implications for the Anglican communion and certain practices in Anglican churches overseas. It was well worth reading and writing.

Is it not a great pity that more people did not behave with the dignified restraint that the Archbishop of Canterbury showed when the preface was published? Would it not also be a good thing if more of those who talked about it read it?

I agree with my hon. Friend on both points.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, whether there are any plans to review the wages and conditions of those staff working in the House; and if he will make a statement.

(on behalf of the House of Commons Commission): Under the requirements of the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978, the grading and pay of staff of the House are kept broadly in line with those in the home Civil Service and are linked appropriately. Pay of staff of the House is reviewed at the same time as, and in line with, that in the Civil Service.

Will the deputy leader of the official wing of the Liberal party, if he can wrest himself away from all these merger talks—

Order. The hon. Member is answering for the Commission.

That is his title. Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that some of the wages and conditions of staff who work in the House—those who clock on and off, unlike hon. Members—are paltry by standards outside? Will he also bear in mind that recently there have been several instances of staff being treated, particularly by Tory Members, as if it was "Upstairs Downstairs"? They are being treated like servants. Will he draw the attention of his colleagues to that fact and stop this nonsense?

I knew that I can rely on the hon. Gentleman to offer me a friendly and encouraging word on matters outside the terms of reference of the Commission.

Will the hon. Member accept that, particularly at Christmas time, the Members' kiosk has very long queues and that the staff work exceptionally hard for what is not satisfactory, but highly unsatisfactory, pay? Will he consider whether, at times such as Christmas, those members of staff ought to go on to a commission basis, as well as receiving their wages?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the staff in the kiosk worked extremely hard for hon. Members during that busy period before Christmas. The provision of the kiosk is a matter for the Services Committee. I shall see that all concerned are aware of the hon. Gentleman's representations.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the most up-to-date figure available to him for the total expenditure on staffing, pensions and related matters incurred since the beginning of the current Session in connection with the Scottish Affairs Committee.

No expenditure has been incurred since the beginning of this Session specifically in connection with the Scottish Affairs Committee. Staff in the Department: of the Clerk of the House are available for a wide range of duties, not just the service of particular Committees.

The staffing arrangements have continued despite the fact that the Select Committee system has not been set up for six months, and the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs has still not been set up. Costs must be incurred for those people, not just for the six months, but for the remaining five years of this Parliament. Leaving aside the obscenity of the fact that Scottish colleagues do not have a Select Committee of their own, which they should, will the hon. Gentleman take away the consideration that he has the right to report to the House and make representations to the Leader of the House on the fact that more than £1 million has been wasted on the Select Committee system? Will the hon. Gentleman bring back a report from the House of Commons Commission as soon as possible?

The hon. Gentleman asked about the Scottish Affairs Committee. The two members of staff who were provisionally allocated to work for it are now working for other Committees. Should the Committee subsequently be set up, it will be the responsibility of the head of the Department concerned to ensure that staff are made available for its work.

Is there likely to be consideration of a reversal of the position whereby subcontractors are brought in for cleaning the House, and so on, when those who used to work for the House—

Order. That subject would have come more happily under the first question. This question is about the Scottish Affairs Committee.

I did try.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what were the takings of the House of Commons kiosk in (a) the four weeks to Christmas 1987 and (b) for the latest year for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply.

May I congratulate my hon. Friend and all those concerned upon those excellent and amazing figures and ask whether the staff will get bonus payments? May I also thank him and his Committee for introducing fudge to the House of Commons during the past year, but may I ask why it costs £2·50 a tin, whereas down the road one can buy the same quantity for only £1? Why is House of Commons fudge so expensive?

My hon. Friend, who is an expert at fudge, will realise that there is a vast difference between quality and quantity.

Would it be a good idea to put The House Magazine on sale at the kiosk? What is the position of The House Magazine, which carries the imprimatur of the coat of arms of Parliament? Is it purely a private enterprise venture? May we know who financed the pulping of a whole issue of the magazine and why a whole issue—

Order. I do not think that that is the responsibility of the Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee, although it was in order to ask him whether the magazine should be put on sale in the kiosk.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will table a motion for the appointment of a Procedure Committee to consider moving the allotted time for the introduction of ten-minute rule Bills to the end of a day's business; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir, but consideration of any such specific proposal would be within the remit of a Procedure Committee with general terms of reference.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that public business at the start of our proceedings is too often delayed by the over-indulgence of hon. Member's raising bogus points of order? Would it not be more appropriate to have it just before the Adjournment debate, as was done during the Session of 1966–67?

The question of points of order is a slightly different matter, and it is not one for me. I am not aware of any general dissatisfaction with the present timing of ten-minute Bills. However, it is something that the Procedure Committee could look at.

Will the Leader of the House confirm that the Procedure Committee, of which I am a member, produced a report before the summer recess that dealt with all these issues in detail and made a number of recommendations? Is it not true that the reason why that report was not brought before the House was that the Leader of the House was worried that if the Protection of Official Information Bill that we debated last Friday had gone through, the proposals in our report, if carried by the House, would have meant that the House would have had more time on Report to deal with amendments to the Bill and that that would have secured its passage? Now that that Bill is out of the way, why does the right hon. Gentleman not bring that report forward this week—

Order. Does this question have anything to do with ten-minute Bills?

My hon. Friend took 10 minutes to ask it.

The hon. Gentleman is chasing a hare —this matter has little to do with ten-minute Bills. With regard to Procedure Committee reports, I have reported to the House that I have proposals as to how best to deal with these matters. I am having discussions with the usual channels and I hope to make progress soon.

When the Procedure Committee sits, will my right hon. Friend ask it to consider recommending the reintroduction of the 10-minute limit on speeches? As he knows, in 1979 and 1984 the House agreed to limit speeches to 10 minutes—

Order. The subject is ten-minute Bills rather than speeches. However, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about 10-minute speeches.

This is certainly a matter to which we attach importance, and we want to get on with it as soon as possible.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make it his policy to review the operation of Select Committees at the end of the current Session; and if he will make a statement.

Since the establishment of the present Select Committee system in 1979, the Liaison Committee has made periodic reports to the House on the operation of Select Committees. In so far as they are House bodies, this would seem to be the appropriate form of review.

Does the Leader of the House have any further comment to make, given that on Friday many of his colleagues were drawing attention to the ever-powerful Executive versus Parliament? Is he aware that the six-months delay in setting up Select Committees aided and abetted his colleagues on Friday in arguing for a stronger Parliament? Will he bring forward a report to ensure that the teeth of the Select Committees are sharpened so that we can hold the Government to account?

No, Sir. I have no proposals to bring forward a report. It is a matter that the Liaison Committee could consider, and we shall be interested in anything that it says.

Has my right hon. Friend considered the relationship between members of Select Committees and those of Standing Committees? Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members are members of Select Committees and of the two Standing Committees, which are all meeting at the same time?

I recognise that, from time to time, this causes considerable difficulties, and my admiration goes to those hon. Members who manage to do a great deal of work. This is more a matter for the Committee of Selection than for me.

The difficulties that have been experienced in the past six months could have been avoided if the Select Committees on Scottish Affairs in particular, and that on Welsh Affairs, had reflected a balance of membership from Scotland and Wales, and not from the balance of the House. As reports must eventually come to the Floor of the House, cannot the House be flexible enough to adopt that approach?

I am all for flexibility in these matters, but unless Select Committees reflect the broad balance of opinion within the House they will not be acceptable to it. I believe that that is the right principle for all Select Committees.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will propose to the House rules to require that the membership of all-party groups conforms to that nomenclature; and if he will make a statement.

Towards the end of the previous Parliament the Services Committee instructed the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee to investigate and report on the desirability of introducing new rules to regulate the formation, constitution and proceedings of all-party groups. This investigation was cut short by the general election, but I understand that the new Sub-Committee intends to re-examine the matter shortly.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that I am talking about groups of parliamentarians and not outside groups? Does he agree that a group of parliamentarians that includes no Members of the Labour party, the Liberal party, the Social Democratic party, the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru cannot call itself an all-party group, and that were it to do so it would be likely to be in breach of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968?

I agree with my hon. Friend that an all-party group should be what it claims to be. That was the only stipulation made by the Services Committee in its 1984 report. These are exactly the matters which the Sub-Committee will be considering.

May I express the hope that the Leader of the House will ensure that a number of purportedly al-party groups that apply themselves to South africa and Namibia are genuinely all-party? When I last examined their composition it seemed that all the parties that they claim to represent are the parties to which Mr. Botha belongs.

I am not sure whether that is a correct analysis. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will have some constructive part to play in the discussions that will take place with a view to ensuring that all-party groups command the general respect of the House.