To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much grant he expects to pay out in (a) regional development grant and (b) regional selective assistance in Wales in 1987–88, 1988–89, 1989–90 and 1990–91.

Planned expenditure on the two schemes in Wales is £98 million in 1987–88; £109 million in 1988–89; £94 million in 1989–90; and £89 million in 1990–91. Added to those two schemes is the very substantial increase in expenditure for the Welsh Development Agency—to £113 million gross in 1988–89—and the benefits that will be obtained from the three new regional investment, innovation and business development grants.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making regional selective assistance tax free, which would put it on the same basis and give it the same incentive value as RDG, which is being phased out?

Taxation is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. However, it is very much taken into account when setting the level of RSA grants.

Will my right hon. Friend suggest to the Opposition that, as part of their "Labour Listens" campaign, they lend an ear—

Order. The hon. Gentleman's question must be related to the main question.

Will my right hon. Friend remind the Opposition—

That is no good.

Is it not the belief of the Welsh Trades Union Congress that the automatic nature of RSG has led to a wasteful allocation? Does it not strongly favour a much greater selectivity to improve the cost-effectiveness of our regional policy?

Certainly the TUC document mentioned that it wished to move towards greater selectivity. However, I am unwilling to make suggestions to the Opposition because I am very happy with the way that they are behaving.

When the right hon. Gentleman visits Mid-Wales Development tomorrow, will he note that it has benefited considerably from RDG? Is he aware that that organisation is worried about the Government's regional policy? What does he intend to tell it about the Government's regional policy?

I had discussions with the chairman of Mid-Wales Development last week, and he shares our delight about the considerable increase in regional aid for Wales. I very much look forward to visiting the organisation tomorrow and seeing Newtown and the activities there.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that in the areas recently affected by Dairy Crest closures — at Llangefni in Ynys Mon and Felin Fach, in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) and for Ynys Mein (Mr. Jones)— the full armoury of regional policy will be available to provide alternative employment in those areas?

I can give that assurance because this is an instance of where organisations such as the Welsh Development Agency and Mid Wales Development can move in quickly. I understand that the WDA has today announced a joint programme to find alternative food businesses for Ynys Mon. I have also decided that, under the urban aid programme, I shall proceed with some new workshops in that locality in the near future.

When considering regional assistance, what account does my right hon. Friend take of the achievement of private investment, which, in some parts of Wales, has been very successful?

I am delighted to say that as areas of Wales have an expanding economy and prosperity improves it is easier to gear up and get far more private investment. A great deal of investment is taking place in my hon. Friend's constituency.

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that the increased WDA figure that he pleaded in aid in his opening answer will still be below the level of 1978–79 Government funding? If the Welsh Office is so committed to selective assistance, because that leaves the decisions in the control of the Secretary of State, how does he explain the fact that, since 1978–79, regional selective assistance in Wales has fallen by virtually 50 per cent., giving us a cumulative loss of £330 million, whereas in Scotland it has doubled? The Secretary of State for Scotland has obviously been looking after Scotland's interests far better than the Secretary of State for Wales has been looking after Wales' interests. In the final analysis, on the projections which he has just given of his spending on combined regional grant for the next three or four years, the figure for each year is virtually £100 million less than was being spent in 1978–79.

The right hon. Gentleman suffers because his only source of political originality is a research assistant who finds him a base year on which to connect and reject figures. As I have learnt that technique, I can assure him that when the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs meets later this week I shall project, on a similar basis, all the health figures for the period in which he was in government. It is a bogus method of presenting figures. The Labour party is alone in Wales in regretting the enormous increase in regional aid that will take place.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total of unemployed in Wales in February 1979 and to the latest recorded date in the current year; and what the increase in unemployment represents as a percentage figure.

The seasonally adjusted number of unemployed claimants in Wales in February 1979 and December 1987 were 75,000–6 per cent.—and 140,300 —11·7 per cent. which figure, I am pleased to say, has decreased by 20 per cent. over the past 19 months.

In order further to rebuild the economy on Deeside, will the right hon. Gentleman consider vastly improving road access to the very fine Deeside industrial park? Does he understand that the communities of Shotton and Connah's Quay want to be bypassed by a new crossing of the River Dee so that their lives can be made much better by getting the traffic out of the streets? The great worry of Alyn and Deeside council is that, despite its good plans for jobs, it cannot get hold of the site of the Connah's Quay power station, which is now redundant. Will the right hon. Gentleman discuss these matters when he visits Clywd later this month?

Yes, I shall be happy to discuss any matters when I make that visit. I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the appearance of the entrance to the industrial park. It is partly a question of land ownership and current usage there, but I hope that those concerned will have urgent discussions so that the situation can be improved.

Was the right hon. Gentleman aware of the shudder of dismay throughout the coalfields in Wales last week at the fresh or projected redundancies in that industry? Will he tell us whether British Coal consulted him before those announcements were made, and will he confirm that urgent consideration will be given to Abernant colliery and all the other projected rundowns? It is a serious situation and I hope that the Government will not have allowed British Coal to embark on this programme without consulting them first.

As the right hon. Gentleman knows full well, this is a matter for British Coal. I am pleased to say that when I was responsible for these matters, I laid down a new procedure which allows an independent examination of any application. If the mines concerned wish to go through that procedure, they will be able to do so. That procedure is a considerable improvement on that operated in Wales between 1964 and 1970, when 32,000 miners lost their jobs as a result of pit closures.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the steadily falling trend of unemployment, while in perfect contrast to the rising trend of the Labour Government, has still not gone far enough, that we must continue to accord the highest priority to combating unemployment and that this will be best served by a positive approach to the jobs created for industry and the potential for even more jobs in Wales?

Yes, Sir. Some staggering achievements are taking place. In the past year a record number of factories led to record inward investment and a record drop in unemployment. I hope that that trend will continue.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that, since his appointment, he seems to have been engaged in spreading synthetic optimism? The reality of the Welsh situation was symbolised by the 2,000 job losses in our coal industry last week. Is there not every sign that job prospects for 1988 are worse in Wales than for any other region? In regard to pay levels, we are simply at the bottom of the league.

Prospects for the coming year are better for Wales than for most parts of the country. The facts will show that to be the case. I noticed the hon. Gentleman's jubilation at the announcement that the Trustee Savings Bank is going to Newport and the optimistic and cheerful notice that he put out. I am happy for the Labour party to be the party of pessimism and for the Conservative party to be the party of optimism.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he proposes to take in the light of his recent visits to and tours of the Heads of the Valleys communities.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he proposes to take following his recent visit to the Valleys area of South Wales.

My recent visits to the Valleys communities have helped to clarify the shape of the major programme that I am devising.

Will the Secretary of State's new Valleys initiative include additional resources for the Health Service in our communities? In particular, will it include sufficient resources to reopen the high-dependence units in St. Tudful's hospital? That hospital was opened only six months ago by the Queen Mother and was shut at the new year as a result of lack of resources. It has resulted in £120,000 worth of extremely good equipment lying idle.

I am having consultations on the initiative with Valley health authorities, and I am looking at the manner in which the particular medical and health problems of the Valleys should be considered in such a programme.

Opposition Members regard the Secretary of State's answer with some scepticism. There are many promises, but not much is delivered. During his visit to the Valleys, did he understand the anger and bitterness at the continued underfunding of the National Health Service? Is he aware that, this week, nursing and ancillary staff at Caerphilly miners' hospital will work for 200 hours on a voluntary unpaid basis to make up one day's shortfall between what the hospital needs and what it gets? In the circumstances, as his Government have been so quick to criticise nurses who withdraw their labour, will he offer his support to the staff at Caerphilly miners' hospital?

The hon. Gentleman must feel pretty ashamed at asking such a question, when he considers the level of nurses' pay when we came to office and how, during the period of the Labour Government, it went down in real terms. Under our Government it has substantially increased. On the general matter of promises, most of the people whom I met on my visit were delighted at the Valleys factory building programme that was announced during the past week.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the proposed colliery closures will be a tremendous blow to Valley communities of south Wales? Rather than scoring political points, will he address the queston that was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) about what proposals he had to provide work for those who will be put out of work?

The hon. Gentleman will know that British Coal has categorically stated that there will not be a single compulsory redundancy.

The Secretary of State said that, as a result of his recent tour, we got the commitment to the Valleys initiative. We welcome that. Will he confirm also that table 2.2 of the public expenditure White Paper clearly shows that the total spend in Wales will fall by £6 million next year and £54 million over the next three years? They are the Government's figures in their own White Paper. As he has told us that his Valleys initiative is included in the diminished figures, will he confirm also that, therefore, instead of extra money being available for it, the initiative is to be wholly funded by cuts in other Welsh programmes? As he does not like my statistics, although they have stood up to close examination somewhat better than his own have, will he publish in Hansard a list of the cuts that will fund his initiative?

I repeat that the right hon. Gentleman should decide to find a new research assistant who will not cause him such political embarrassement. I am delighted to say that once again his figures are incorrect. I have already announced a most enormous increase in regional aid for Wales, which will benefit the Valleys.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to improve the quality of school meals in Wales; and if' he will make a statement.

Responsibility for the provision of school meals, including their quality, rests with local education authorities. A recent Government survey indicates that school meals provide adequate amounts of essential nutrients

Nevertheless, is the Minister aware of the research carried out at Darland high school in my constituency into students and children eating junk food and therefore not attaining their full academic potential? Is he concerned at the results of that research? Will he ensure that further research is carried out to confirm or rebut the results of the research at Darland high school and, as this is clearly a serious matter, which cannot be left to local education authorities, will he set in train processes to re-establish nutritional standards at all our schools in Wales?

Of course I am aware of the experiment carried out at Darland high school in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, which, incidentally, is very well reported in the Lancet of 23 January. The conclusion of that research was that in most cases the average intake of vitamins was close to the recommended daily allowance, although for a minority the intake was low. W e always consider dietary studies of this kind, but whatever school meals are supplied the choice whether to take them lies with the children concerned.

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Clwyd health authority and Clwyd local education authority on their joint campaign "Healthy Eating—the Clwyd Way"? Will he suggest to the Welsh Health Promotion Authority that it takes up this admirable initiative to teach schoolchildren about healthy eating through school meals with the correct foods and at a low price?

My hon. Friend will be interested to know that the preliminary results of a DHSS survey into the diets of schoolchildren in Britain, published in April 1986, showed that school meals provided adequate amounts of all the essential nutrients, although intakes of fat were found to be too high. My hon. Friend is right in saying that all efforts to improve the quality of diet for schoolchildren should be welcomed, including the efforts of Clwyd.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local residents seeking the abandonment of the experiment being planned for 12 February at Trawsfynydd nuclear power station.

I received a number of representations, from north Wales and elsewhere, expressing concern about the proposed test. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Central Electricity Generating Board has decided to postpone the test.

May I express my relief and delight that the CEGB has decided to postpone the test? However, is the Secretary of State aware of the concern felt by people in that area and all over Wales that the test could still take place and might be carried out in secret, as happened at Hinkley Point in 1965 and again in 1985? Will the Secretary of State seek assurances from the CEGB that the test will not take place — we want it cancelled rather than postponed — and that it will certainly not take place in secret?

I can certainly give an assurance that no such test will take place in secret.

Has the Secretary of State brought his views on nuclear power with him from his previous incarnation?

Yes. I am aware of the concern and I am also well aware that no such test could take place without the full agreement of the independent Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, which would not agree unless it knew that the test was completely safe.

If that is the case, why were the people of Cumbria not told that a similar test was to take place at Sellafield?

Order. Unfortunately, that is not part of this question.

Is the Secretary of State not concerned that the decision to carry out this frightful experiment was made with no proper consultation with the fire service, teachers organisations or farmers unions? In view of the outrage generated, will he accede to the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams), who calls not for postponement, but for the cancellation of the experiment?

It may well be that the communications to those concerned about the nature of the test were not sufficient. Therefore, those who wished to put over wholly unfounded propaganda about the lack of safety and the nature of the test succeeded in doing so. I hope that before any such test takes place the CEGB will carefully communicate the basis of the test.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to improve primary health care in Gwent.

Primary health care in Gwent, as in other parts of the Principality, will benefit from the implementation of proposals set out in the Government's White Paper entitled "Promoting Better Health".

Does the Minister agree that there is great unease in Wales about the proposals that are set out in that White Paper? When he and his right hon. Friend begin their survey of Valley health, including the points that the Secretary of State made a few minutes ago, will they ensure that extra resources are given to primary health care in Wales? Will he give an undertaking to the House that there will be more general practitioners, especially in the Valleys of south Wales?

Yes, I think that I can give much of the assurance for which the hon. Gentleman asked. If he reads the White Paper he will see that special attention is to be given to the Valleys and that the number of general practitioners in his constituency has increased by about 10 per cent. under this Government. We look for a further improvement in the years ahead.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress he has made in his consideration of policy towards houses in multiple occupation.

My consultation with local authorities, fire authorities and other interested bodies is now complete and I have set up a working party with their representatives.

Do the Government not recognise the facts of the situation — the squalid and dangerous properties and the fire tragedies that have occurred and that the guidance that was promised as long ago as 1980 is still only in draft form? I welcome what the Minister said, so far as it goes, but, because of the facts, should there not now be mandatory powers for local authorities if the Government are serious about the position and about seeking to provide proper protection, at last, for tenants?

The hon. Gentleman will know of my personal constituency interest in this problem. I think he will understand that in the consultation process local authorities showed that they wished to have flexibility in their responses.

Does my hon. Friend accept that there will be a great deal of satisfaction with his original reply and his supplementary answer? However, can he allay my fears that the one contribution that the community charge will make to this problem wil be to encourage owners of houses in multiple occupation to push a number of their tenants out on to the pavement?

I am a little bewildered by that question, because they will pay the collective charge anyway.

Will the Minister publish the criteria upon which the discretion for grants for houses in multiple occupation will be paid?

Details will be made available in the Housing Bill that we shall promote in the next Session.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unadjusted figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales; and if he will give the equivalent figures for 1979 on the most nearly comparable basis.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave him on 18 January.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that good communications are vital for attracting new jobs to areas such as Gwent? Does he also appreciate that the Severn bridge has been paid for many times over? If £180 million can be wiped off the Humber bridge debt, surely there is now a strong case for toll-free motoring on the M4, or is the Secretary of State going along with the Secretary of State for Transport, who now seems intent on imposing tolls on so much of our road network?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not like the tolls on the Severn bridge to be increased to the level of those on the Humber bridge, but if he would, he should make that clear. The tolls on the Humber bridge are much higher than those on the Severn bridge. I should add that the tolls on the Severn bridge were imposed during a period of Labour Government and were maintained by the previous Labour Government. Therefore, I find it rather bogus for the Labour party now to say that they should be abolished.

The Minister will be aware of the blow dealt to my constituency by the announcement of the closure of Abernant colliery, and the considerable unemployment that it will bring if it goes ahead. The NUM has invoked a procedure that will mean a delay of nine months. Will the Minister use those nine months to secure for the Abernant valley alternative and adequate employment?

Certainly. I have already announced a programme of additional factory building and massively increased regional aid that is to take place in the next three years. That will be considerable help in job creation in those areas. I am glad to say that the local authority leaders in those areas very much appreciate that.

Will the Secretary of State take note that earlier today I attended the UK 2,000 celebration in Cardiff, where I was presented by Richard Branson with a certificate from the Community Activities Training Organisation, of which I am chairman. Will he take note that, perhaps because he is a stranger to Wales, he has omitted the whole of the Ogwr borough and the valley from the Valleys initiative? Unemployment in Ogwr has increased from 3–7 per cent. in 1979 to 18.7 per cent. at present. Despite that increase, the Secretary of State and his Department have omitted the Ogwr valley from the Valleys initiative.

The hon. Gentleman should await the announcement of the areas that are to be designated for the Valleys initiative.

Bearing in mind the comments of the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) to the effect that the Severn crossing is a vital lifeline for Welsh industry, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is satisfied with the progress being made to achieve a second crossing? Does he agree that it is most necessary?

Yes. It is important that the second crossing is in place by the mid-1990s. All projections have estimated that it will be in place by then. I am delighted that consultants have been appointed on a contract that has been made aimed at speeding up their decisions and their advice. It is vital for Wales that the Severn crossing is in place in good time.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the worst unadjusted unemployment figures in Wales last month were for Pwllheli, which has a rate of 24.7 per cent.? Yet Pwllheli is not even a development area. While welcoming the announcement of the reaction to the redundancies at Llangefni, may I ask the Secretary of State to say what steps will be taken by the WDA and by his Department to overcome the regular and cyclical unemployment that exists in places such as Pwllheli?

I am anxious that positive steps are taken in such areas, such as those I have discussed with the WDA and the Mid-Wales Development. A combination of those in the more rural areas of Wales will lead to a range of policies that add to the momentum of new business initiatives.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that unemployment in Wales could be reduced still further if the NUM were to accept a six-day working week, so that British Coal could proceed with the £90 million investment in the new coal mine at Margam?

I am pleased to say that the announcements made last week by British Coal made it absolutely clear that it was prepared to go ahead with Margam and all the jobs that that would create. It expressed the hope that the NUM will quickly agree to negotiate a six-day working week. If that does not take place there will be a sad and unnecessary loss of jobs to Wales.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the reported delegation led by the hon. Member for Macclesfied (Mr. Winterton) to the Department of Trade and Industry to plead against the relocation of Government jobs to Wales? What action does he intend to take to ensure that the opposite view is presented to the Department of Trade and Industry, so that the jobs are relocated in Wales to give that area a boost in jobs?

Not for the first time, I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). I can say only that we have pointed out the considerable advantages to Wales and to all the people who work there.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has received the independent report prepared for his Department on the craft industry; and if he will make a statement.

I have received the report and will be speedily considering its recommendations with the main bodies involved.

I am sure that the Secretary of State will accept that there is considerable nervousness throughout the craft industry in Wales about changes that may be made in future. Will he ensure that whatever changes are made, they fit into the marketing calendar in such a way that they do not disrupt the normal pattern of business?

Yes, I shall certainly consider that point. If I may say so, as one of the few people who has read the report, the points made by the hon. and learned Gentleman in his submission to Tony Ball on this were fully considered and are dealt with in the report. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that my objective is to ensure that the marketing of craft products in Wales is much improved.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Welsh Arts Council; and what matters were discussed.

I met the chairman of the Welsh Arts Council in January, when we discussed a variety of issues relating to the arts in Wales.

Does the Minister consider that it is an acceptable formulation for arts policy in Wales to be handled by the Arts Council of Great Britain and then by the Welsh Arts Council, rather than that the affairs of the Welsh Arts Council should be handled entirely by his Department, so integrating arts policy with cultural and other aspects of education policy which are already part of his Department's activities?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the position of the Arts Council in Wales, and he will be aware of the considerable liaison between the Welsh Office and the Arts Council. I hope that we both take account of what the other is doing.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what change he expects in the number of National Health Service administrators in Wales over the coming year.

Information from health authorities about projected staffing levels for 1988–89 will not be available until the end of March.

My hon. Friend will remember that eight years ago the Conservative party manifesto promised to reduce the level of administration in the Health Service. Is it not scandalous that the administrative staff in the Health Service in Wales has increased by 14 per cent. since then, at a time when resources are stretched in the NHS?

My hon. Friend should bear in mind that a large proportion of the administrative and clerical staff are involved in the provision of direct patient care. They are, for example, medical secretaries, ward clerks and health education staff. But the proportion of total costs in the Health Service in Wales taken up by management has decreased from 5·2 to 4·2 per cent.

Does the Minister accept that the increased number of administrators certainly has not done much to cut the waiting time for many services, for example, cervical cancer tests? Some people in Gwynedd have had to wait 10 weeks for the result of a smear test. Surely that is unacceptable. The Welsh Office, as the responsible body for the activities of health authorities, must carry the can for that.

The hon. Gentleman will know that that was a regrettable lapse of time and that the target time is no more than eight weeks. His question is not in line with the initial question.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on progress at the Wales Railway Centre; and if he has any plans to pay a visit there.

With financial assistance from various public bodies, locomotives have been purchased, and work is under way on site security and other improvements at Bute street, Cardiff. Other commitments mean that I will not be able to visit the centre when the first locomotives are due to arrive later this month, but I hope that a ministerial visit can be made as soon as possible. I am sure we all recognise the contribution that my hon. Friend has made to this project.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, will he, for me, please thank everybody in his Department, the WDA, the South Glamorgan county council, the Welsh Industrial and Maritime museum and all those involved? Is he aware that this is an outstanding example of co-operation between a whole range of public bodies? Can he please assure the House that he will continue to keep a close eye on its progress?

I think that the project will be successful, and I agree that great collaboration took place and brought about its success.

In welcoming the Secretary of State's answer, may I ask him whether he recognises that the centre is located in the area of highest unemployment in the South Glamorgan area, indeed such as to make Pwllheli, which itself has an unacceptable level, seem fairly reasonable? Will he bear that in mind in ensuring that employment opportunities for the people of that locality are concentrated on?

Yes, Sir.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the community charge for caravan sites; and if he will make a statement.

I have received a number of representations about the application of the standard charge to caravans in Wales. In the light of those representations I have decided that the maximum multiplier for caravans should be set at the same level in Wales as is proposed for England.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that answer will bring great delight to caravan site owners in Wales, because it will bring them into line with owners in England? As this is the number one industry in Wales, will caravan park owners continue to receive a rebate for collecting money on behalf of local authorities?

It is proposed that they will have a charge that they can make.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the general impact of the proposals will have a devastating effect on all caravan parks? Will he reconsider this matter, because many of the people concerned with the management of the caravan parks are extremely anxious?

I do not believe that my hon. Friend should be so evidently alarmed. The multiplier will be in the hands of the local authority, and if it believes that the tourist potential and importance of caravans in its area are as great as my hon. Friend makes out, it is quite free to levy a multiplier of zero if it so wishes.

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he last visited Bury in his official capacity; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend aware that Bury is currently celebrating the 200th anniversary of the birth of one of its most famous sons, Sir Robert Peel? Will my right hon. and learned Friend send a message of good wishes to the people of Bury for the success of those celebrations? Does he agree that the Peelite legacy of social reform and radical Toryism is still alive and well in the modern Conservative party?

My hon. Friend has a lot in common with Sir Robert Peel—Sir Robert was a redhead, as is my hon. Friend. Of course, my right hon. and learned Friend will send a message of congratulations to the people of Bury, who are celebrating the birth of their favourite son. Any examination of the Tamworth manifesto will show that those same principles are alive and kicking in the present Conservative party.

Will my hon. Friend ask my right hon. and learned Friend to reflect, when he next visits Bury, on the 4,000 job losses from Manchester city council? Many council employees live in Bury. On his way back to the airport or the railway station, will my right hon. and learned Friend call in at Manchester town hall to tell that authority that council overspending invariably ends in tears?

I am not sure that that is entirely a matter for the Chancellor of the Duchy, whose prime responsibility is for the appointment of magistrates in Bury. However, I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will take careful note of my hon. Friend's comment.

Is it not a fact that the greatest historical achievement of Sir Robert Peel was to split the Tory party from top to bottom? Is it not the case that the miserable squealing lot of today have not the guts to do the same?

The right hon. Gentleman and you, Mr. Speaker, are great afficionados of political history, and I thought that the House might be interested in the following comment in a biography of Peel that describes the opposition to him:

"the opposition resorted to all the obstructive devices which the lax rules of the House allowed … . the behaviour of the Commons, never noticeably decorous, rapidly degenerated. Shouting, groaning, hooting, stamping of feet and beating of sticks on the ground, became a regular accompaniment to debate; and it was said that there was one set of opposition MPs who were making a deliberate attempt to 'bellow Peel down'."

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement about the Commissioners' current policy for dealing with redundant churches.

The commissioners' policy is governed by the Pastoral Measure 1983, which provides for the future of a redundant church to be settled by a suitable alternative use: preservation by the redundant churches fund; care and maintenance by the diocesan board of finance on specified terms; or demolition. The Measure lays emphasise on finding a suitable use for the church, if at all possible, and that is what is most commonly achieved.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the need for decisions to be speedy enough to meet the needs of congregations once they have made the difficult decision that a church should go?

The statutory procedures enshrine the right of anyone—the clergy, patrons, local authorities and heritage and environmental groups — to make representations against draft schemes. That consideration determines the speed at which things happen. Much also depends upon the nature of the building. In simple cases, where a building is felt to lack distinction, its future can often be settled relatively quickly in a matter of months. In more complex cases, where different views are held about the most suitable use, it may take longer to find the right solution. I fear that Holy Trinity, Bolton is a case in point.

As the right hon. Gentleman is the nearest connection that we have to the Almighty in this place, will he say how it is possible for a house of God to become redundant?

The direct connection is a bipartisan one. I did not understand the exact point of hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but I should say that the redundant churches fund, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-east (Mr. Thurnham) asked, is responsible for many churches, and many find an alternative use after a reasonable lapse of time.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many out-patients in Wales were on hospital waiting lists in December 1987 for (a) hip replacement operations, and (b) cateract operations; and what were the corresponding figures for December 1986.

Waiting list information held by the Welsh Office is on the basis of specialties, not individual procedures. In the year to March 1987, in-patient waiting lists in Wales in trauma and orthopaedics and ophthalmology decreased by 0·7 and 10·4 per cent. respectively.

Is the Minister aware that some of my constituents have been waiting for up to two years for cataract operations? Is that not disgraceful? What will he do about it? Will he allocate more funds for such bread-and-butter operations rather than the high-tech operations?

The hon. Gentleman will know of the £1 million which was made available in the current year and in the preceding year to help with that problem. He will also know of the extra funding which Powys health authority has used to purchase, for instance, operations at the Agnes Hunt hospital for residents of north Powys. It is now looking for similar places to purchase for residents of south Powys.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the dependence in north Wales on facilities outside Wales for many operations? Is he aware of the problem at present because of the almost complete closure of the hospital at Gobowen, because of difficulties in the neighbouring health authority? Does he have measures in mind to deal with the problem?

That case is the responsibility of Shropshire health authority and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. But we are keeping an eye on the matter.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of responses to the consultation documents on the privatisation of local authority leisure and sport services was in favour of privatisation and what percentage was against.

My right hon. Friend issued a consultation document last September proposing that the management of local authority sport and leisure facilities should be subject to competitive tendering. The responses are being considered and it is hoped to make an announcement soon.

Is the Minister aware of the magnificent record of Newport and Gwent councils in providing generous leisure services and the fact that they have been especially successful in providing leisure services to disadvantaged groups, including disabled and unemployed people? Is he also aware of the widespread dismay that those universally popular centres are likely to be handed over to people whose motive is not to give the community the leisure services that it desires, but to make money?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is slightly confused. These centres will not be handed over. The intention is that the running of some of them should be put out to tender. The hon. Gentleman should await the final decisions in this matter before he speaks of the disadvantaged groups losing out.

Does the Minister agree that it would be nonsensical even to consider privatising sports centres that are situated on school premises? Does he recognise that in Powys there has been enormous success with local authority-run joint-use facilities, the result of which has been a trebling in the use of those facilities as compared with other areas in which there is no joint use with the local community?

We are giving deep consideration to that matter at the moment. 1 accept the hon. Gentleman's point.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with farming unions in Wales with regard to those sectors of Welsh agriculture most affected by proposed reforms of the common agricultural policy; and if he will make a statement.

I and my officials have regular consultations with both the farming unions in Wales on all matters affecting Welsh agriculture.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that when milk quotas were introduced there was a general feeling among farmers that that had been done after inadequate preparation and with inadequate warning? Will he therefore examine the possibility of outlining the effects that will be certain to ensue if changes are now to affect other parts of farm production?

There are certain difficulties about that. The ultimate decisions are taken by the Council of Ministers in Brussels, and we do not know the final terms that will be agreed on any particular topic. Through the Welsh Office we endeavour to have the closest possible communication with the farming unions and all farmers in the Principality.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will raise with the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) the question of guidance to the Librarian on the purchase for the Library of books which are the subject of court injunctions; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. I am satisfied that the Librarian has available to him any guidance he may wish to seek from the Library Sub-Committee of the Services Committee in carrying out his duties.

As the whole point of slapping injunctions on Wright was not about the national security of our country, but about domestic politics and people bugging and burgling their way through London; and as the whole point of slapping an injunction on Cavendish was, again, not about national security but about the smears on Harold Wilson, on Ted Short and on the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath), are not those additional reasons why the House of Commons should have injuncted books available and should not have to rely on hon. Members presenting them to the Library? The Library should have the ability to purchase them.

Acquisition of books for the Library is a matter for the Librarian and not the Government. The Librarian is responsible to you, Mr. Speaker, and ultimately to the House as a whole. I understand that the Librarian would not seek to purchase or borrow any hook that is the subject of a legal ban on sale or publication.

If the Librarian would not seek to purchase or borrow any book that was the subject of a ban, why was he willing to accept a copy of "Spycatcher" from me, with my compliments, and place it in the Library?

1 understand that the Librarian was offered a copy by the hon. Gentleman and decided that the proper course was to make it available for reference to hon. Members only. He did that in view of the Government's declaration that, legal claims apart, they would not seek to prohibit the book's circulation or import into this country.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that when a book of considerable public interest is being debated on an almost daily basis, and can be bought across the counter in Camden Passage, for example—I saw it there a couple of weeks ago — it is nonsense that it should not be available in the Library?

I repeat that the acquisition of books for the Library is not a matter for the Government, but for the Librarian—and ultimately, for Mr. Speaker.

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that many Conservative Members would find it deeply distasteful if such a book as "Spycatcher" were bought at public expense and placed in the Library of the House?

I recognise the strength of what my hon. Friend has said.

It seems to me that there is more freedom in the Library than under this Government,despite the fact that the Government—and the right hon. Gentleman—were elected on the basis of freedom. We never stopped hearing about it in 1979, 1983 and 1987. The Prime Minister rabbited on about freedom, yet the Government do not even have the guts to authorise a book being placed in the Library for everyone to read.

I do not think the hon. Gentleman could have been listening carefully. I said that it is not a question of the Government authorising anything.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the percentage of bed occupancy in Welsh hospitals in January 1979; and what was the position in January.

The information is not availabl:! for the dates requested, as bed use data are collected quarterly. The figures for the quarters ended 31 March 1979 and 31 March 1987 — the latest date for which information is available—were 78 and 79 per cent. respectively.

Does the Minister agree with the quotation:

"The health of the people is the highest law"?

The matter that those people should take into account first and foremost is the provision of health care for patients.

Will my hon. Friend take into account the enormous disparities between different districts in Wales as to the proportion of money that is spent by those authorities and the return that they get on that money, and make sure that the best authorities' practice is copied by those with the worst practice?

It is our intention that authorities that are less efficient should follow the most efficient. My hon. Friend will be aware that capital and revenue finances are being equated throughout the Principality, to the advantage of his own health authority.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he proposes to take to encourage the development of home-grown manufacturing industry (a) in Wales and (b) in Cardiff, in respect both of new starts and of expansion by existing firms; and what targets he has set for each of the next five years.

I announced on 13 January my new programme of support for industry in Wales. It included a very large increase in the funds available and the introduction of a number of new initiatives and grant schemes, all of which are available to indigenous Welsh industry. I am confident that the programme will have a major impact on the development of industry and business in Wales as a whole and in Cardiff as a major industrial and commercial centre in the Principality.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that the initiative to which he referred is complementary to rather than competitive with locally based initiatives, which have had such a success over recent years? Does he accept that locally based initiatives have proved successful and that the efforts by individuals and groups in small initiatives are deserving of nurture and assistance?

Yes, I do. When, recently, I saw the enterprise centre with the hon. Gentleman, I thought that that was a classic example of that initiative being put into practice, with considerable impact. One or two of the biggest successes that we have had recently in inward investment have been due to the combination of local and central Government initiatives, so I intend to do what the hon. Gentleman says.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received concerning the levels of funding of the Welsh health authorities; and if he will make a statement.

I and other Ministers have had meetings with health authority chairmen, Gwynedd Members of Parliament and Welsh Labour Members of Parliament and with the Minister of State. We have also met a deputation of members of Gwynedd health authority. On those occasions, along with other matters, the funding of health authorities was discussed. I have also received a number of letters from various organisations and members of the public commenting on the funding of health authorities.

Does the Secretary of State accept that much of the concern about the closure of small hospitals in Gwynedd and elsewhere has arisen because of the lack of capital for building new, modern community hospitals, and that were those hospitals available there would be much less feeling about some of the changes that are now being proposed? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consider proposals from Gwynedd health authority for such a capital programme, to bring community hospitals into the 21st century?

I have to consider any proposals made by any health authority, on any topic. With regard to the capital programmes, this year district health authorities received £24–5 million capital funding for their discretionary use, an increase of 14 per cent. on 1986–87. The allocation for 1988–89 will be £29.5 million, an increase of nearly 21 per cent. over 1987–88.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on recent progress in planning for a second Severn crossing.

The consultants for the project, W. S. Atkins and Maunsell, are making good progress, and commencing on 9 February exhibitions showing plans of the route of the crossing will be held at various venues on both sides of the Severn estuary. The Government remain confident that the crossing can be provided by the mid-1990s.

I am pleased to hear my right hon. Friend's commitment to the earliest completion of the second crossing, but may I urge him to give the earnest consideration to exhibiting the proposals in Cardiff, as is presently being done in the Chepstow area, because they are of at least as much interest to the people of Cardiff and the many commercial organisations that are centred in the capital city?

Yes. That is a perfectly good, positive suggestion, which I shall take up.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of British Coal; and what subjects were discussed.

I met the deputy chairman of British Coal on 21 January. We discussed a range of issues affecting the south Wales coal industry.

Did the Secretary of State discuss the new mine at Margam? It is an issue that Labour Members have championed since 1979. In my area alone, 4,500 miners are out of work as a result of the pit closures that have taken place since 1979. The provision of 800 jobs in Margam would be ideal for those people, and I ask the Secretary of State to take action to get that mine started.

One of the matters that I discussed with the deputy chairman of British Coal was whether British Coal still wanted to proceed with Margam, as there had been speculation that it did not want to do so. He confirmed that it wished to proceed with Margam. It hopes that agreement will be reached with the unions for six-day working, in which case it would be a viable proposition. I very much hope that those negotiations will take place and that they will be successful.