To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total amount of support which Wales has received from the European regional development fund during each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total value of grants which Wales has received from the European regional development fund in the past 10 years.

Net commitments to Wales from the European regional development fund in the years 1978–87 amounted to £419·7 million; during the last five years the amount was £276·3 million.

I am sure the Secretary of State will agree that the investment in the European regional development fund has been important to Wales in the years that he has mentioned. Does he agree that it becomes more important as we look to 1992 and beyond, in the context of the single market?

Obviously the fund has had an important role to play, and obviously Wales has a considerable interest in the terms and conditions on which it will be operated. I am anxious that the views of the problems of Wales are fully understood by the Commission when its future plans are decided.

Can my right hon. Friend assess the consequences for employment of these not inconsiderable grants?

Obviously, they are substantial. Some of them are difficult to measure in employment terms, because they have an indirect effect on employment, but such amounts have had a considerable impact on the improving employment position in Wales.

As the Secretary of State well knows, the European funds are linked to what was the treaty of Paris in regard to the Coal and Steel Community, and are now subsumed within the European Community. In view of that link, does he believe that south Wales will be badly affected and that colliery closures will result from the recently announced electricity privatisation plans?

No, Sir.

Given the growing importance of the European regional development fund in providing employment in Wales, will my right hon. Friend accept that great importance attaches to the composition of Welsh representation in the European Parliament, and that it is vital that we send there people who really intend to make a success of it?

Yes.

May I revert to the inadequate reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers)? Is the Secretary of State making any calculations about how much European support will be necessary if the south Wales coalfield is forced to close down as a result of the implementation of the Government's proposals for the electricity supply industry? How real and how serious is his opposition to the proposals? Is he prepared to lay his job on the line, as was suggested in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph?

Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I have had the privilege of being a member of Cabinets for most of the past 18 years. If the hon. Gentleman had ever had that privilege, he would understand that he could put forward whatever views he liked, and I am sure that they would be listened to with the enthusiasm and cordiality with which my views are always received.

Net commitment to Wales from the European regional development fund was £17·1 million in 1978, £21·7 million in 1979, £32·5 million in 1980, £24·8 million in 1981, £43·7 million in 1982, £45·1 million in 1983, £63 million in 1984, £54·9 million in 1985, £59·5 million in 1986 and £53·8 million in 1987.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received from district councils in Wales, and the Committee of Welsh District Councils, on the implementation of the poll tax in Wales.

My right hon. Friend has received no recent representations.

Does the Minister agree that recent proposals which the Association of District Councils in Wales has put before the Government to spread the burden of the poll tax more evenly among the 37 Welsh districts are the only means by which the effect of the tax can be mitigated for the Welsh? Does he agree that his right hon. Friend's most welcome Valley initiative would be to accept the proposal and so ease the burden of this unjust, unfair and unwanted tax?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well, as he is on the Local Government Finance Bill Standing Committee with me, that the needs element of the grants will take care of the differentiation between the different areas in Wales. As for the rest of his questions, I think that time will have to elapse.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on last week's excellent decision to remove caravan parks from community charge and make them non-domestic rated. This will be most welcome in Wales and will help the tourist industry.

Indeed, and it proves that it is the Government who are the listening party, not others who make similar claims.

Will the Minister and the Secretary of State promise to read carefully today's Daily Post, in which a feature article discusses aspects of the poll tax and says that the Duke of Westminster could be £8,000 a year better off, Lady Pilkington could be £2,000 a year better off and Lord Derby could be £7,000 a year better off? Is it not an immoral tax which enables that to happen when ordinary people must contend with increased prescription charges? Is it not time that the Government withdrew the Local Government Finance Bill?

Not at all. The vast majority of people will benefit from the Bill, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and the least well off will be able to benefit from rebates.

In view of the serious effect that the community charge could have on religious orders which have taken a vow of poverty and have no income of their own, will my hon. Friend do his utmost to ensure that they are exempted?

As to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, he will know that the Government are looking into the matter most sympathetically. As to the latter part of his question, I hope that my hon. Friend keeps up his good work in putting the right arguments.

Is the "listening Government" listening to the representations being made about sporting facilities, especially non-commercial sporting facilities, such as indoor squash and tennis courts? Will the Minister assure us that the Government will bring forward an amendment to give a statutory exemption to such facilities, bearing in mind that they are exempting commercial fish farms and open-air sporting facilities?

I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that that matter is being considered sympathetically.

Does my hon. Friend agree that if the community charge does not come to pass there will have to be a general revaluation and that the valleys of south Wales will feel the greatest upward effect from it? Is that not a further special reason why we need the community charge as the only practical and fair reform?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is an ironic effect. A revaluation would often hit poorer areas rather surprisingly, not least because the areas which in 1973 had highly rated assets of garages and central heating, for example, have recently been overtaken by much poorer areas which have recently had the same assets installed, so they would find that their rateable values rose fairly rapidly by comparison.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to meet representatives of health authorities in Wales to discuss the funding of the National Health Service; and if he will make a statement.

I met health authority chairmen in November and discussed a range of funding issues. Revenue funding has increased by 9·1 per cent. for 1987–88 over 1986–87.

When the Secretary of State meets representatives from the Mid Glamorgan health authority, will he have anything to offer them to help meet their estimated £3·8 million shortfall during the coming financial year? Is he aware that one of the consequences of his cuts is a nursing shortage which is so severe that, in some geriatric hospitals in Mid Glamorgan, terminally ill patients are being left to face their final hours without any nursing care? Does he not think that we should do something about that?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind the cash increase in revenue funding for Mid Glamorgan health authority this year of £10·5 million, or nearly 9 per cent., over the 1986–87 figure, and the growth in recurrent revenue resources from 1978–79 to date, which has increased by nearly 30 per cent.

Why is the Secretary of State not funding a single intensive care cot anywhere in Wales?

From his interest in this subject, the hon. Gentleman knows about the improvement in care for young babies and that the improvement in the mortality rate has been substantial. I hope that that improvement will continue.

In the light of improvements in the number of patients treated and the funding which my right hon. Friend has announced, and which is welcome in Wales, is he surprised that some health authorities claim that a crisis has overtaken them without any warning and that they have not done more to deal with the problems which they claim exist? Will he invite those same authorities to submit their positive plans for improvement of the Health Service as part of the review now being undertaken by the Government?

Financial budgeting and financial management reviews are taking place and they are extremely important. My hon. Friend mentioned the number of patients being treated, and that is considerable. The number of in-patients treated is 84,000 a year up on the number treated when we took office, and the number of out-patients treated is 76,000 a year up on the number treated when we took office.

Will the Secretary of State consider giving extra financial aid to the East Dyfed health authority so that it can build the second phase of Bronglais hospital at Aberystwyth?

All such matters under the capital investment programme come up for discussion, and obviously they will be given proper consideration.

I am sure the Secretary of State will recognise that we are discussing the future spending on health in Wales against a background, not just of shortages of nurses and doctors and the lowest number of hospital beds available since the Health Service was set up, but of unforgivable waiting lists. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, on the basis of his published spending plans for the next three years, he could spend £230 million more on health in Wales if he achieved only the average annual increase that was achieved under the last Labour Administration? [Interruption.] As the right hon. Gentleman laughs at that, may I put to him a more modest objective? May I point out to him that, astonishingly, he could spend £191 million more if only he—

Is this a question?

Yes it is. The hon. Gentleman is not a Welsh Member and he should let us ask Welsh questions in our own way.

This is is not a question.

Yes it is. I have asked a series of questions and I want answers.

Order. But please not too many questions.

I have no doubt that you, Mr. Speaker, are directing your comments at the Conservative Benches as well.

In the long history of shadow Secretaries of State for Wales there cannot have been a worse one than the present incumbent. I leave the right hon. Gentleman to explain how it was that, in the last year of the Labour Government of which he was a Minister and, therefore, had partial responsibility, waiting lists in Wales increased by more than in any other year in history. It is interesting that he said that there are now fewer beds available, but he did not mention that there are now 4,000 more nurses, many more doctors and many more patients being treated.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ensure that consideration of future hospital plans in the counties of Wales involves adequate opportunities for public comment based on full information on (a) the impact on services to patients, (b) the relationship to community medical services and general practice and (c) detailed financial appraisals.

This is already accepted policy.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he share my concern that the financial appraisal that was promised by the South Glamorgan health authority when it launched its plans last October is still not available? That appraisal was promised originally for December, and then for January. In the light of the delay in providing that financial appraisal, it was promised that there would be an extended period for consultation. Will the Minister press the health authority to expedite the provision of that information, without which, as I am sure the Minister will agree, it is impossible to make sense of the health authority's recommendations?

As far as I am aware, the consultation process is proceeding normally. If the hon. Gentleman has a point that he would like to make to me afterwards, I shall be willing to listen.

In relation to the problems of South Glamorgan, will the Minister comment on the severe shortage of cardiology facilities, which occasioned last week's extraordinary announcement that the health authority intended to spend more than £500,000 on contracting out operations to a private sector hospital? Will he comment on that issue, in the light of the fact that, before the 1983 general election, the former Secretary of State promised that cardiology facilities in South Glamorgan — intended to serve the whole of south Wales—would be doubled from their existing level and yet, six years later, that promise has still not been made good?

I am a little concerned that the hon. Gentleman will not have a supplementary left for his question 21 on this very subject. It is worth pointing out that South Glamorgan was given £385,000 by the Department in the current year to conclude its programme of 600 operations. We shall wait until the year end to see how South Glamorgan achieves that.

What would my hon. Friend's attitude be to proposals from specialist companies to build and run a new hospital on the waterfront in Cardiff—or, for that matter, anywhere else—so emulating the excellent success already achieved by the new kidney dialysis units in Wales?

With interest, but clearly we would have to consider such a proposal when it arrived.

In light of the criticisms voiced about West Glamorgan health authority's proposals to re-site the Neath general hospital, will the Minister undertake to ensure that when representations are made to him regarding the siting of that hospital the fact that there has not been adequate public consultation is borne very much in mind?

Clearly, all representations will be borne in mind, and the hon. Gentleman's views on this matter are well known.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any plans to reorganise his Department's agricultural services, in particular in north and mid Wales; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. I consider existing arrangements to be satisfactory for present purposes.

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. However, I am sure he is aware that to keep the services at their present level—in north Wales at least—he needs to keep the Ruthin office, open. Employees at that office are very concerned about the future, bearing in mind that financial input in new building is needed for that office to remain open and continue to provide a service in its area.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make inquiries into who has been so enthusiastic in spreading rumours about the closure of the office. There are no plans to close the Ruthin office and it is a great pity that unfounded rumours continue despite the assurances that have been given.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that there are sufficient farm management advisers—the number will need to be increased—to tackle the financial crisis in Welsh family farms, and will he make extra provision for marketing schemes in Wales?

Much can be done on the marketing side. Last Friday I had discussions with the WDA about how we could improve still further the marketing of various products from Wales.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he is planning any initiatives in the field of occupational health care.

Initiatives in work place health care are undertaken on my right hon. Friend's behalf by the Welsh Health Promotion Authority.

No doubt the Minister will be aware of the trade-union inspired scheme of heart health screening undertaken at RAF St. Athan, in the constituency of the hon. Member for the Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower). Several of my constituents were involved in that scheme. At £17 the screening is far cheaper than at a BUPA hospital, where it costs £100. Will the Minister consider supporting and extending such schemes across Wales, given that every year five out of every thousand employees die of a heart attack and 6,000 working days are lost at a cost of £200,000?

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise this extremely serious matter. We welcome any such initiatives, and I am glad to say that many employers take advantage of these Welsh heart programme schemes for the benefit of their working people. They include major companies such as Parke Davies, Texaco, British Airways, BICC Power Cables, British Gas (Wales) and the Polytechnic of Wales, and we should like involvement to be much more widespread.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members share the concern of the Welsh Health Promotion Authority about the proposed minor role of health education in the national curriculum? Surely my hon. Friend must agree that health education in schools is a wise investment and that prevention is preferable to and more cost effective than cure.

Certainly, but that should be a part of the curriculum of life, which I hope all decent schools would teach.

Is the Minister aware of the important high technology wound dressings made in my constituency? Will he assure the House that lack of resources will not prevent these dressings from being made available on prescription and thus ameliorating the condition of a large number of people in my constituency and in Britain as a whole?

I think the hon. Gentleman knows that the dressing to which he referred is currently being tested.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to mark the 400th anniversary of the translation of the Bible into Welsh.

Arrangements for numerous events throughout Wales to mark this most important anniversary are being coordinated by a committee chaired by the former Archbishop of Wales, the Right Reverend G. O. Williams. I am very pleased that the Welsh Office has been able to contribute £25,000 towards the costs of the committee.

I welcome my hon. Friend's reply. As the Welsh Office co-operated in the new translation of the Bible into Welsh, I trust that that translation will be better than the modern English versions of some liturgical matters.

I am bound to say that we have not contributed to the translation as such. However, I am sure that it will be a good one. We have given a grant of some £7,500 to the Welsh joint education committee to assist local education authorities with the cost of purchasing copies of the new translation.

Would not the best practical way of celebratong Bishop Morgan's translation be the provision of a specific sum of money to provide textbooks in Welsh for A-level subjects such as economics?

That is certainly one of the many ways in which the translation of the Bible might be celebrated. I hasten to assure the hon. Gentleman that we give considerable support to the provision of textbooks and teaching materials.

Since it was an Act of Parliament of 1563 that ordered the Welsh bishops to produce a translation into Welsh, is it not about time that the Welsh Office responded to the consultation on the new Welsh language Act?

The hon. Gentleman knows that it was about 20 years after that Act before the Bible was translated into Welsh. We are consulting. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is meeting various organisations concerned with the language in Wales. He has set up a group under my chairmanship and we are considering actively the next moves forward with regard to the promotion of the language. Of course, legislation may be one of the options before us.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were in employment in 1979 and at the latest available date in (a) Cardiff and (b) Wales.

The latest available figure for numbers in employment in Wales is 1,021,000 at September 1987. The figure is derived from a Department of Employment quarterly series of employees and the annual labour force survey of some 3,000 households in Wales. The corresponding figure for September 1979 was 1,160,000. There is no comparable information on employment in Cardiff.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the numbers in employment are at least as valid as the statistics for unemployment? Can he assure me that the surveys to which he referred are sufficiently accurate and that there are now much better rates for finding jobs for the long-term unemployed and school leavers, which are two important areas?

It is difficult to assess accurately. The figures are the result of a survey of 3,000 households, which has been the consistent survey over that period of years. On the matter of employment prospects, one of the most interesting figures is the enormous percentage increase that has taken place over the past 15 months in jobs advertised in the main Welsh newspapers.

Has the Secretary of State noticed that the earnings of those in employment in Wales have sunk to next to bottom of the league table in the United Kingdom because of the loss of high-wage steel and coal jobs and their replacement with low-wage, retail, part-time jobs? Is that worrying the Welsh Office and, if so, what is it doing about it? Is it content to see Wales as a low-wage economy?

No, Sir. I am delighted, as, no doubt, is the hon. Gentleman, about the substantial number of manufacturing firms that have been opening in Wales during the last period. There is no doubt that the trend, both in service and manufacturing industries, as many more firms come into Wales and many existing firms expand, is very good for earnings in Wales.

Will the Secretary of State tell us what prospects there are for my constituents, who have the highest male unemployment rate in Wales? There are no job vacancies registered at the job centre and closure of Lady Windsor colliery at Ynysybwl will push up male unemployment to 34 per cent. Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the coal industry and the Government have some responsibility for the social consequences in my area when that closure occurs and unemployment reaches those drastic proportions?

That is why I am pleased that the Welsh Development Agency will have much more money to spend on advance factories than before. I am pleased that the British Coal Enterprise company is continuing its activities and I know that it will concentrate its activities on those areas where pit closures are taking place.

Does the Secretary of State not realise that the figures that he has just announced show that there were 122,000 more people at work in June 1979 than there were in June last year? Indeed, if one leaves out the self-employed, the figure was 170,000 more. Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree—

That figure included the self-employed.

The right hon. Gentleman was not listening. I gave a figure including the self-employed, and then gave a figure excluding the self-employed. Does he not agree that last week's Government figures show that between June 1983 and June 1987—the period covered by those figures—Wales was the only region in the United Kingdom to see a fall in the combined numbers of employed and self-employed?

The right hon. Gentleman's desire always to depict—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question"]. He really should have the answers. I am delighted to say that the figures for youth unemployment and for long-term unemployment in Wales were the best of any region in the country in the past 12 months. [Interruption.] I am also delighted to say that 1987 was a year of record inward investment. The right hon. Gentleman is now becoming the one lonely voice in Wales who thinks that things are going badly for Wales.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of the average domestic and industrial water rate bill for 1988–89 is attributable to (a) Welsh water authority financial targets having to be above break-even, (b) current cost accounting having to be used in place of long-term loans, (c) Welsh water having to bear the cost of paying the capital and interest repayments on the debt of £450 million and (d) the cost of raising beach bathing cleanliness standards to EEC limits.

The assessment of water charges is a matter for the Welsh water authority. The authority estimates that the information asked for is as follows: (a) 16 per cent., (b) 15 per cent., (c) 24 per cent., and (d) 4 per cent.

The large sum, almost £20, added to the bills of every ratepayer in Wales as a result of the changes in domestic rate relief means that way over half the total cost of rate bills in Wales is due to Government policy. Will the Minister admit that the Government have imposed on Welsh water ratepayers a financial straitjacket that is entirely artificial and contrived? The figure has increased by more than twice the rate of inflation for many years now. When will the Government stop this long-running confidence trick against the payers of water rates in Wales and introduce a little fairness into the system?

I believe that the Welsh water authority, as run at present, is a great success for the people of Wales. In the Welsh water authority we inherited, in many cases, ill-run facilities. Under the Government capital expenditure in the authority has risen by 33 per cent., compared with 11 per cent. under the Labour Government. If one considers why charges have sometimes increased, one finds that it is because that investment was ignored in the past.

Does the Minister agree with the way in which the charges have been levied? There was a whopping increase of over 20 per cent. in standing charges, as a result of which rich people have a proportionally lower increase, whereas poorer households have a 20 per cent. increase in their water charges this year.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Welsh water authority is implementing as a policy the raising of the standing charge element until it represents 50 per cent. of the average bill, which reflects the fact that 90 per cent. of all costs are fixed.

Does the Minister appreciate that his answers are unsatisfactory? Does he realise, for instance, that in recent years charges in Newport have increased by 2,500 per cent. and that standing charges in Wales will soon be the highest in Britain—£36 compared with £6 in Yorkshire? Can the hon. Gentleman not see how this is damaging industry, let alone causing hardship for households? When will he get rid of this complacency and do something about this dreadful situation?

I do not think that it is a matter of complacency that the Welsh water authority should be run economically and efficiently. That is precisely what the Government have been ensuring.

Does the Minister accept that the financial targets could be reached with far lower charges for consumers if the Welsh water authority did not have an enormous historic debt around its neck? Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the first thing that the Government will do with privatisation is to write off that debt? Why not do it now, so that consumers can get the benefits?

I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would understand that, if the charges, which are rising this year by 8 per cent., were cut the investment needs of the Welsh water authority would have to be met from further borrowing, which would raise the debt interest that the Welsh water authority has to pay in the future.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unadjusted figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales; and if he will give the equivalent figures for 1979 on the most nearly comparable basis.

On 14 January 1988 the numbers of unemployed claimants in Newport district, Gwent and Wales were 8,071, 23,451 and 148,477 respectively. Unadjusted figures for 1979 are not available on a basis that enables a valid comparison to be made.

When will the Secretary of State realise that, despite all the trumpet-blowing and all the massaging of the statistics, these unemployment figures are still appalling? Although we welcome the setting up of the Patent Office in Newport, does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that that will be of little benefit overall if we lose the Passport Office? When will the right hon. Gentleman sort out the issue of premises for that valuable establishment?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his usual optimistic and eager response. The unemployment figures for Wales are still exceedingly bad and great progress needs to be made. I know how the hon. Gentleman will rejoice in the knowledge that in the past 12 months there has been the biggest fall in unemployment in Wales since the war, that the number of WDA lettings and number of inward investment firms have broken all-time records, and that not just the Patent Office but the Trustee Savings bank, with 2,000 jobs, have decided to go to Newport. In the interests of Newport, it is time that the hon. Gentleman cheered up.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that only when he can report to us and the nation that unemployment in Wales is the same level as in 1979, when the right hon. Gentleman and his Government took office, can we start waving our daffodils on St. David's day, which is tomorrow, and the day when we should have our debate instead of on Wednesday?

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. I shall not even be satisfied when unemployment reaches the 1979 figures. As the hon. Gentleman knows, under the Labour Government, unemployment increased substantially too.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there will be great disappointment if the trend is the same as in 1979—inexorably upwards?

Yes. There was an upward trend in unemployment. Unemployment in Wales has increased considerably, so I shall not be content with the 1979 figures with which the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) would be satisfied.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the implications for the Welsh farming industry of the decisions of the European Community Brussels summit regarding reform of the common agricultural policy.

The stabiliser arrangements will have an impact on future trends in agriculture, but the impact on Welsh agriculture will be particularly affected by future negotiations.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the considerable anxiety in Wales as a result of the recent Brussels agreement, particularly about the effect of stabilisers on the sheep sector? Will the Secretary of State now make it clear that he will not just consider representing, but will represent, the interests of our farmers in any future talks in Brussels, so that we can ensure that the sheepmeat regime is kept intact? Will he further agree with me that the European regional and social fund must be expanded to ensure that rural areas in Wales can benefit from diversification schemes?

It is obvious that the future income for sheep and beef producers is of fundamental importance for Wales, so in all Community and national negotiations I shall play a full and eager part.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the considerable hardship facing Welsh farmers is due to the disparity in the green pound? When the next farm price review comes round, will he press his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to bear the special problems of Wales very much in mind?

I understand my hon. Friend's concern, and I know that it is a matter that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is considering carefully.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what further representations the commissioners have received from (a) clergy and (b) tenants or leaseholders of the commissioners regarding the effects of the proposed poll tax.

The commissioners have no responsibility for the rates on properties let to tenants and leaseholders, and have received no representations from them. They continue to receive letters from clergy and church members about the loss of charitable relief on clergy accommodation and the financial implications which the Government's proposals pose for the Churches.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is outrage among the clergy in Nottingham and among the other religious denominations which will be hit very hard by the poll tax? They will have none of the relief on rates currently available, and they will suffer for it. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether there are likely to be concessions or exemptions for Anglican and other clergy? If there are, will he ask for them to be extended to old-age pensioners in my constituency, who will also suffer under the poll tax?

I hope that the hon. Member will reassure at least the Anglican clergy whom he represents that it is unlikely that they will have to pay the community charge, any more than at present they pay rates. I am afraid that I cannot speak about the prospects for non-conformist clergy, but I have no doubt that the leaders of the non-conformist denominations will probably follow the pattern of the Church of England.

Does my hon. Friend agree that where someone, cleric or otherwise, has the vote, uses local services and receives an income of some kind, it is quite right and proper that he should be asked to pay the same contribution to local government finances as any one else?

Yes. There is no question but that the community charge will be paid. At present, under the existing rating system, clergy are internally exempted, in that the Church Commissioners pay the rates. Under the community charge, the likelihood is that it will be paid direct on their behalf.

Why does the hon. Gentleman not have a word with his right lion. Friend the Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? Why does he not put it to him that he should stop bellyaching and knocking the Church and the bishops, and spend a bit more time meeting the needs of the farmers?

Order. The question is about the poll tax. I do not think that that arises.

If I have any communication with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State I shall find myself' answering questions about mangel-wurzels. I do not want to have to do that.

To ask the right hon. Member of Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what has been the number of clergymen in each of the past 10 years.

The total number of full-time stipendiary clergymen at the end of 1978 was 11,409; at the end of 1987 there were 10,624. In 1987 the first women deacons were ordained, increasing the total of full-time stipendiary clergy to 11,063. I shall arrange for full details to be published in the Official Report.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the vast bulk of the clergy work long and anti-social hours, often with little material reward? Does he agree also that one of the functions of the clergy—and, one hopes, of the bishops — further is to give a moral lead to their congregations? Does he further agree that, as one would not expect a bishop to sponsor adulterers for ordination, one can agree with those bishops who are refusing to sponsor practising homosexuals?

The Church Commissioners have no direct responsibility for ordination, selection or training. It is unlikely that an avowedly practising homosexual would be recommended for ordination or ordained by a bishop in the Church of England. It would scarcely be compatible with a clergyman's pastoral duties for the teaching of Christian personal ethics to recommend ordination.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what will be the total spending by each Select Committee on overseas visits by the end of financial year 1987–88; and what submissions were made by each committee to justify their journey.

It is anticipated that the gross total outturn for 1987–88 for overseas travel will be the £290,865. I shall arrange for the total for each Committee to be published in the Official Report. The Commission has no knowledge of submissions made by individual Committees, as responsibility for deciding on such submissions within the budget determined by the Commission has been delegated to the Liaison Committee.

I am not one of those hon. Members who feel that hon. Members should never travel abroad.

a: Some time ago the Commission took the decision that these matters were best dealt with by the Liaison Committee, to which each Committee must defend its proposed visits. The House has seen fit to set up Select Committees and give them responsibilities, which include considering the overseas activities of Government Departments and the implications for the House of matters that take place overseas. It is now the job of the Liaison Committee to spend appropriately within a budget on that work.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the opposite of broad-mindedness is narrow-mindedness? It would not be in the best interests of Parliament or the Government if the House were to adopt the policies that the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Allen) has espoused. Insulting remarks have been directed towards the Chairmen of Committees, but those Chairmen go to a great deal of trouble to ensure that the work is correct for those who go overseas and that reports that the Committees make to the House are in the best interests of everyone.

The Liaison Committee is chaired by the right hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), who takes these considerations into account very carefully when doing his work.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether this expenditure on Select Committees is a record? As they were set up so late, they seem to have got through a remarkable amount of money.

The total amount budgeted for has increased by roughly no more than the rate of inflation year by year, but the Commission has taken the view that the expenditure for the current year should be underspent in view of the late time in the Session that the Committees were set up. No doubt, when the total outturn is seen, that will be taken into account by the Commission when looking at next year's total.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of unemployed in Wales at the latest date; what it was in May 1979; and what is the total and percentage increase.

The seasonally adjusted numbers of unemployed claimants in Wales at May 1979 and January 1988 were 73,100 and 137,700 respectively, which I am pleased to say has decreased by 21 per cent. over the past 20 months.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Alyn and Deeside district council is experiencing problems in obtaining control over the site of the redundant Connah's Quay power station? Does the right hon. Gentleman know that it is estimated that £50 million would be needed to recommission this redundant power station? Is he aware that the fixed costs of staying connected to the grid would be prohibitive? Does he agree that this site is very important for my council for economic and social reasons? Will he help that district council?

That is a matter for the commercial judgment of the CEGB. I understand that the board will judge all proposals on their merits, given its statutory duties. I cannot interfere with those statutory duties.

Is it not an advantage that people in Wales are now employed in a wide variety of industry, whereas some years ago they were employed in two or three major industries which were susceptible to a very large decline in manpower?

Yes. I believe that the two main industries concerned — coal and steel — are in a position of considerable strength for the future. The decline in manpower in those industries is certainly coming to an end. That will greatly strengthen future trends in the Welsh economy.

As the Secretary of State had to shout previously, will he tell us exactly when unemployment in Wales will be below the figures for 1979? It has been on a downward trend for a long time.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been an enormous decline in the numbers employed in the coal and steel industries. I am glad to say that the figures that I have given show an enormous increase in employment during the past 20 months. That trend is continuing. With the capital investment programme of the WDA and the present inward investment, I hope that that trend will continue.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received concerning the proposed televising of the House.

I have received representations from a number of sources, including right hon. and hon. Members.

During the recent debate my right hon. Friend said that he had had preliminary discussions with the broadcasters about editorial control. Have there been any further discussions with broadcasters on that subject? In view of the influence that television is having on the American presidential primaries, is it not clear that television is the most powerful medium of all and that the possibility of it slanting a debate one way or another makes it a powerful tool?

I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. These matters are within the scope of the Select Committee's remit, and obviously the Select Committee will want to address its mind to them. The House will have the opportunity to consider the Select Committee's recommendations in due course.

Is it not vital that sufficient time is made available on the air for coverage to enable professional editors fairly to represent the opinions within the House that are presented in debate?

The hon. Gentleman is right. I do not think that the amount of time the broadcasters choose to use for television broadcasting is a matter for me.

In spite of all the difficulties involved, does my right hon. Friend agree that now is the time for all hon. Members, whether or not they voted for the proposal to televise the House, to make the best they can of the new situation, or at worst to engage in damage limitation?

As is so often the case, my hon. Friend speaks for the whole House.

The Lord President of the Council will be aware that many hon. Members believe that the absence of photographs in the House is deplorable. Now that television cameras will be let into the Chamber, will he consider allowing photographers into the Chamber to take pictures? If such representations are made, will he or the Select Committee consider them?

The Committee, in arranging for the conducting of an experiment in public broadcasting, will have quite enough work without considering the hon. Gentleman's point. Perhaps we shall have to consider that matter in some other way.

Has my right hon. Friend watched the televising of the House of Lords, and has he noticed that when controversial Bills are under discussion the commentators do not leave the viewers to decide for themselves, but add such comments as "This is the fifth speaker against the Government."? That is quite unnecessary—[Interruption.]

Order. The House must let the hon. Lady finish her question.

The commentator may well say, "This is the fifth speaker against the Bill.". Is that not editing of the worst order? It should be up to the listeners to judge for themselves.

I am sure that if the House were to be televised the public would expect there to be a balance for and against the Government in any broadcast. Such matters are highly relevant to the work of the Select Committee.

To ask the Lord President of the Council how many admission orders were issued for entry to the Public Gallery in the most recent Session for which figures are available.

Since parliamentary Sessions vary in length, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will find it helpful if I give him the average annual figure over the past three calendar years 1985–87, which is 160,201 admission orders.

I am grateful to the Lord Presient of the Council for his reply. What steps is he taking to encourage more visits to the Strangers' Gallery? Is it not about time that we opened some real public restaurants and facilities in this place? That would encourage people to come here and could, indeed, turn the Palace of Westminster into a real people's palace. Even if televising the House of Commons turned into the most boring show on earth, which I doubt, given the experience in the House of Lords, even one night's broadcast of what goes on in this place would reach more people than could visit the Stangers' Gallery over about four or five years.

With hon. Members getting tickets in rotation — two orders every nine days — if the hon. Gentleman has any spare tickets, I am happy to make use of them for my constituents. Most hon. Members could deal with more admission orders than they currently get. The Galleries are well used without the attractions that the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that hon. Members are responsible for members of the public for whom they obtain tickets for the Strangers' Gallery? It is their responsibility when they misbehave. What action has he taken against hon. Members when it is quite obvious that they have allowed into the Strangers' Gallery people who intend to demonstrate?

I am sure that the House will expect any hon. Member who facilitates a member of the public going into the Strangers' Gallery to hold himself responsible for the conduct of that person, in so far as he is able to do so. What action should be taken against any hon. Member who, by neglect or other means, lets into the House somebody whom he should not let in is not a matter for me.

There is desperate pressure for tickets. Has the Lord President of the Council ever looked up to the Strangers' Gallery, just before 3 o'clock, and seen many empty seats? Our colleagues have to queue from 2 o'clock onwards to get tickets. It is not the case that, too often, with the system of rotational tickets, colleagues on both sides of the House pocket their tickets in case they want to use them, find that they do not need them, and forget to return them to the Admission Order Office, while people who really want tickets cannot get them? Should not the rotational system be looked at?

The hon. Gentleman has raised this matter in the past. On many days, all admission orders are issued. The time until 3 pm is allowed for those visitors whose arrival has been delayed. At 3 pm, any unoccupied seats are allocated to people waiting in the public queue. That is the general system. It has worked to most people's satisfaction, but if the hon. Gentleman thinks that it should be looked at, I shall see what can be done.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many jobs have been provided in Wales during the last period of 12 months for which figures are available by firms based outside the United Kingdom.

Inward investment projects from outside the United Kingdom secured during 1987 are planned to create or safeguard 5,161 jobs. These were 59 projects, which is an all-time record.

From those figures, and the figures for preceding years, is it not clear that Wales was, and remains, exceptionally attractive to inward investors? Will my right hon. Friend continue his extremely successful efforts to attract still further investment in the Principality?

I am pleased to say that the available figures for 1987 show that Wales was the leading region in the United Kingdom for attracting inward investment.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on arrangements for the provision of psychiatric hospital treatment in Powys.

The provision of psychiatric hospital treatment in Powys is a matter for the Powys health authority in the first instance.

Does the Minister agree that because of the present enlightened conditions in psychiatric hospitals patients are far better treated there than in the community? Will he insists that Powys health authority keeps the same number of beds in the Mid Wales hospital at Talgarth as it has now?

On the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, that must be a matter for the local health authority. On the first part, he must await the Welsh Office mental illness strategy, which will be published soon.