To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made on the establishment of a medium secure forensic unit at Cefn Coed hospital, Swansea; and whether he expects it to open on target in 1990.

The Department's initial suggestion that the medium secure psychiatric unit for south-west Wales might be located at Cefn Coed hospital is being reviewed in consultation with the health authorities most concerned. When all the responses have been received and considered a final decision will be made.

The Minister will know that the Welsh Office had agreed that the three units would be located at Cefn Coed hospital, Swansea, Bridgend and Cardiff. Why will the 750,000 people residing in south Wales presumably now be denied the response that the unit can go ahead in 1990? Is it not time that such a Cinderella service was not accepted by the Government, and that the unit was set up urgently at Cefn Coed?

It is a shame that the hon. Gentleman does not accept that the programme was long overdue and that the Government should take credit for putting it in action at all. The fact that there is disagreement over the positioning at Cefn Coed was mentioned at the time of the original announcement. It is on medical and social grounds that the discussions have been taking place. We have had our report from West Glamorgan health authority and we expect the reports from the other two health authorities very shortly.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many factory units have been built by the Welsh Development Agency since its inception.

Since its inception the agency has built 1,466 factory units. That figure does not include the 186 factories purchased from Cwbran development corporation.

How many factory units have been built each year, on average, since the present Government came into power, and how does that compare with the figure under the previous Labour Government?

As a rough approximation, under the present Government the annual rate has been more than double that under the Labour Government.

I welcome the increase in the number of factories that have been coming into Gwent, for example. over recent months, and I see that the Secretary of State has been eager to give some publicity to that event. Will he take account of the fact that the increase in applications is partly because many of the industrialists think that the terms that they are being offered now are better than those that they will get later? Will the Secretary of State give an absolute guarantee that if after an interval of, say, three months—I am sure that that will be long enough—he finds that the figure is not being sustained, he will revert to the present system?

The right hon. Gentleman knows that in terms of factory applications and factory building by the WDA, the programme for the next three years, including in his constituency, shows a substantial increase.

While there has been a warm welcome in north Wales for the massive increase in the WDA property programme, made possible by the Government, will my right hon. Friend take note of the need for a better balance in the number of factories between south-east Clwyd and north-east and coastal Clwyd? South-east Clwyd seems to be benefiting far more than the north-east and coastal parts of the county.

I can only say that I am anxious that factories should be built and workshops provided wherever the need is. The WDA is endeavouring to do that throughout the Principality.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of British Coal; and what matters were discussed.

I met the deputy chairman of British Coal on 21 January. We discussed a range of issues relating to the south Wales coal industry. I also had talks with the chairman on 19 March.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of British Coal, will he raise with him the callous disregard that British Coal is showing for five householders on the edge of the Margam deep mine site? Because British Coal continually denies that it is going ahead with that proposal, those householders' homes have been blighted and one householder has had to refuse a 90 per cent. grant because British Coal has refused to pay for the house once it has been improved, if it finally decides to go ahead with the mine.

I shall be happy to convey to the chairman the detailed problems that the hon. Gentleman relates. I can only say that I hope there will be a quick decision on whether Margam is to go ahead.

As my right hon. Friend is aware, whether the mine at Margam goes ahead depends very much on the attitude of the National Union of Mineworkers in south Wales. Has he heard anything from the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) about whether the Labour party is encouraging the NUM to agree to the proposal?

Since the challenge by my hon. Friend the Minister of State in the recent debate there has not been a word from the Labour party about its attitude towards Margam. I hope that there will be.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of British Coal, will he ensure that there is a proper balance between opencast mining and deep mining in south Wales? Will he also ensure that British Coal does not have plans to work deep-mine sites by opencast workings, thereby blighting the communities in the areas concerned?

All applications for opencast mining must be accompanied by proper planning procedures, and I am sure that that practice will be followed.

When does the Secretary of State believe that the result of the public inquiry into opencast mining at Cheapside in my constituency will be made known? Is he aware of the widespread opposition to the proposal, and does he know that people in east Clwyd fear that they are to be subject to the increasing intentions and activities of the Opencast Executive? Will he examine these matters?

I shall reply to the hon. Gentleman when I can find any sign of when the decision will be made.

Does the Secretary of State realise that the Margam project is being dangled before the people of Wales as if it were a puppet on a string? Is this not in line with the right hon. Gentleman's record as Secretary of State for Energy from 11 June 1983 to 12 June 1987, when he closed no fewer than 17 pits with a loss of 12,287 jobs—55 per cent. of the work force? In the past week south Wales has been reduced to a peripheral area. Does it mean that in taking up the position of Secretary of State for Wales the right hon. Gentleman has been appointed to finish the job of closing a great traditional Welsh industry?

As Secretary of State for Energy, I did not close anywhere near as many mines in South Wales as the number closed by the previous Labour Government. If the hon. Gentleman measures performance by the closure of mines, the Labour Government had a terrific triumph. Once more there has been an opportunity for the occupants of the Opposition Front Bench to give their enthusiastic support for Margam. May we please have a word from them? Are they in favour of Margam, or are they not?

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the latest hospital in-patient waiting list figures for (a) urgent and (b) non-urgent patients for (i) Clwyd and (ii) Wales.

The number of people waiting for urgent in-patient treatment in Clwyd at 30 September 1987 was 383 and in Wales 3,596. The numbers waiting for non-urgent in-patient treatment were 4,491 and 36,262 respectively.

The Minister will no doubt remember his bungled pledge that by the spring no one in Wales should have to wait for more than one month for an urgent operation and not more than one year for a non-urgent operation? Will he renew the promise?

Certainly that remains our target. It is being achieved. Opposition Members might like to learn that of 225 major in-patient lists in Wales, 85 per cent. are meeting the target waiting time of one month for urgent in-patient treatment and 73 per cent. are meeting the target waiting time of one year for non-urgent treatment.

Is it not almost inevitable that with further advances in medical science new operations will become possible; and that the categories of urgent and non-urgent will become completely different?

I cannot gainsay what my hon. Friend has said. Practice changes as improvements are made, and patients do not necessarily have to stay in hospital for the periods that applied in the past, or at all, and unfortunately the cost of the various drugs and items of equipment continues to increase.

Will the Minister give his response to the criticisms that have been made by doctors who took part in the perinatal mortality initiative that was set up by the Secretary of State's predecessor in 1985? Nothing has been done to execute the recommendations that followed the initiative—22 months after they were submitted to the Welsh Office. It was reported in the Western Mail last week that Dr. Sandy Cavanagh, who was a member of the initiative, said that he found the delay of 22 months both amazing and actionable. What is the Minister's response to these comments?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question has much to do with Clwyd or waiting lists. I can tell him that perinatal mortality figures in Wales have been reduced from above those for England to below those for England during this Government's term of office.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I have had messages of appreciation from constituents who have benefited from the Welsh Office's extra spending to reduce waiting lists, which resulted in South Glamorgan buying in heart operations from outside hospitals? Is my hon. Friend satisfied that enough is being done to achieve the Welsh Office's target of an increased number of heart operations?

Yes. Of course, my hon. Friend will be aware that we are waiting for a final report from the Royal College of Physicians on cardiac provision in south Wales.

Has the Minister seen the recent report that, with 41 million days sickness recorded, Wales has the highest sickness rates in the whole of Britain—three times as high as the rate in England? Does he consider that at least one result—I do not say that it will be the sole or major result—will be longer waiting lists? Wales has a lower proportion of hospital beds than even Northern Ireland and Scotland. As a DHSS spokesman has said that he has no theory to explain the higher Welsh figures, and in view of the importance of the figures, will the Welsh Office take an initiative and establish an urgent top-level inquiry to determine what special factors are at work in Wales?

The major step that the Welsh Office would claim to have taken in the recent past is the establishment of the Welsh Health Promotion Authority. Unfortunately, our lifestyle in Wales contributes to the sorts of death rates and some of the diseases from which we suffer rather too much.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the financing of community councils in Wales after the introduction of the community charge.

My right hon. Friend has received several representations from and on behalf of community councils.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that councils, which are the elected bodies closest to the electorate, have a valuable role to fulfil, provided that they stick to the job for which they were elected? Does he agree that, in view of the changeover to the community charge, there is anxiety about the future of their financing arrangements?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. They are the local councils. They will be absolutely free to continue the role that they are currently undertaking. which is the provision of services for people in their localities. We expect that they will continue to do so, and that they will have no trouble in carrying out that task.

Does the Minister agree that 60 per cent. of the finance of community councils in my constituency comes from non-domestic rates? Does he agree also that, to help community councils in Wales, which he applauds —we all agree with him—it is necessary for them to have not only grant but part of the non-domestic rate income?

The hon. Gentleman is following up a mistake that I thought had been corrected in Committee and in a letter to him on the difference between Wales and England in that respect. It is worth pointing out that community council spending per head of adult population in Wales is only £3·50. Of course, in many areas there is no community spending at all. At present levels, most community council charges would be under £10.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to be able to announce a decision on his plans for new Welsh language legislation; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend and I are now considering measures to promote and protect the Welsh language, details of which will be announced shortly.

Will the Minister tell the House why, following their consultation, which concluded on 31 March 1987, on the draft Bill that was proposed by Lord Prys-Davies in another place, and by myself here, the Government have still not published the detailed representations that they received? They have not even shown the balance of opinion in favour or against the new legislation. As they have held the consultations, is it not high time that the results of those consultations were made public?

We have made known the results of that consultation. They were inconclusive, as the hon. Gentleman knows. That is why my right hon. Friend set up a group under my chairmanship. It has met three times and has given constructive thought to the problem. My right hon. Friend has also met representatives of various Welsh language bodies. We shall publish the representations that were made during the consultation. We shall certainly make them available after we have finished working with them.

Those of us who support the view that the Welsh language and culture should be encouraged in every way are worried about the law-breaking activities of some members of the Welsh Language Society. Does my hon. Friend agree that they do nothing to help the advancement of Welsh in Wales?

Law-breaking activities by members of the Welsh Language Society, or any other body, are counter-productive., Law-breaking activities only create antipathy and diminish the goodwill that exists in Wales towards the language.

As somebody who studied the Welsh language during the evening at the Liverpool university extra-mural classes and as a member of the Welsh Labour History Society, may I ask the hon. Gentleman what efforts are being made to encourage the study of the Welsh language in the rest of the United Kingdom, particularly in England?

We certainly encourage people from England to visit Wales. We extend a warm croeso to them when they visit Wales. It is a fact that among the most ardent Welsh learners these days are people from England who have come to settle in Wales.

Will my hon. Friend tell me whether among the proposals that he is considering there is a suggestion that parents should have a statutory right to have their children educated through the medium of Welsh, should they so choose?

I am not prepared to comment on the details of the proposals that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are considering. I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of the new place given to the Welsh language in the national curriculum and of the steps that we are taking by the establishment of a Welsh language subject group. We announced the name of the chairman last week and we shall be announcing the membership shortly. There will also be a curriculum council for Wales. Welsh will be a foundation subject, which means that it will be available to all children in all parts of Wales, except where my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State grants an exception.

The survival of the Welsh language is a continuing miracle. It is a great treasure that we all hold in trust. It is also the most dangerously divisive and explosive issue in Wales. The window of opportunity for legislation is now wide open. This year, for the first time this century, the National Eisteddfod is coming to the most Anglicised part of Wales—Newport. This would have been inconceivable 21 years ago, which was the last time that the House legislated on the language. We must now seize the opportunity which is provided by the evidence of goodwill towards the language from all parties and areas of Wales. Will the Minister assure us that the Government will not delay until they are pressured into action, as they were on the fourth channel? They should build now on the burgeoning, but perhaps fragile, goodwill towards the language by acting swiftly to secure the health and survival of yr hen iqith.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the Opposition Front Bench, and I welcome also his tour de force in favour of the Welsh language. He referred to legislation and, of course, it is easy to cry for a Welsh language Act. It is not so easy to say what might or should go into it. As the hon. Gentleman appears to be committing the Labour party to legislating—I hasten to add that there is no commitment on the Government side —perhaps he will let us know what the content of any Bill might be.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he intends to take to tackle the problem of personal debt in Wales and to ensure that adequate services of money management, advice and debt counselling are available to families and individuals in Wales.

As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry recently made clear to the hon. Gentleman, a great deal of advice and help on debt problems are already provided free of charge by citizens advice bureaux and other organisations. Funding from my Department is provided under the urban programme to a number of organisations of this kind.

Will the Secretary of State accept that the question that he has not answered is what steps he intends to take to tackle the problem, in view of the greater intensity that will hit us as a result of the Government's legislation on social security? Will he accept that the replies to similar questions that have been given by the Secretary of State for Social Services and by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who has a responsibility for trade and industry, have been woefully light and inadequate? The only remaining possibility of help for people in Wales on this desperately serious problem is for the Secretary of State to take some positive action. Will he answer more affirmatively about what he will do on this matter?

As I mentioned, one of the main sources of advice are the citizens advice bureaux. I am delighted that Government funding of those organisations has more than quadrupled during the period that we have been in power.

Does the Secretary of State support the advice of his other Ministers that elderly people in communities such as mine should go further into debt either to pay for their hip operations or to cover the losses in benefit and rate rebate that the Government are now imposing?

I do not believe that any such advice was given.

Is the Secretary of State proud to be a loyal, long-serving, unprotesting member of a Cabinet which, to save £13 million in Wales, has told the poorest people in our second poorest region that they must go without necessities, take loans from the Department of Health and Social Security, beg from charities or throw themselves on the mercy of loans sharks? Will he give his view on a piece of advice that was given? Does he echo the Prime Minister's advice to a 73-year-old Welsh woman that she should take out a bank loan?

I am delighted to support a Government who, unlike the Government of whom the right hon. Gentleman was a junior Minister, are spending 42 per cent. more in real terms on the National Health Service and doing far more for education and for pensioners. I find the right hon. Gentleman's hypocrisy staggering.

Order. I must ask the Secretary of State to withdraw the word "hypocrisy" which he levelled against the right hon. Gentleman.

I withdraw the word "hypocrisy" and substitute "surprising".

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of Gwynedd health authority; and what matters were discussed.

My right hon. Friend met the chairman of Gwynedd health authority on 8 March this year. The authority's financial position and the formula used in determining resource allocations in Wales were discussed.

The Minister has suggested that the meeting did take place. Is he aware that today that health authority is due to come to a crucial decision about the future of hospital services in five hospitals in the county of Gwynedd, one of which directly affects the Nant Conwy area, my own constituency and that of his hon. Friend the Minister of State? Will the Minister tell the House whether, when the decision is taken by the health authority, the Welsh Office will ensure that the views of the local population, strongly expressed during the consultation process against any reduction in hospital services, will be considered fully by the Government? I appreciate that the Minister cannot state that he will oppose these closure proposals, but if he can say that those views will be taken into account, that will be appreciated by the communities affected.

I can certainly assure the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members that if there is disagreement on any decision made by the health authority on the programme that it is facing it will, of course, come to the Welsh Office for one month, during which time we shall be open to any representations.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the likely effect on jobs and the environment of the reopening of Rogerstone power station.

I understand that negotiations between the Central Electricity Generating Board and a private power company are at an advanced stage. Employment at the power station will be a matter for the prospective purchaser, who will, of course, also have to adhere strictly to the environmental regulations and controls that apply to power stations.

Is the Secretary of State aware that hundreds of fine local homes are now in the front line for pollution from gases, carcinogens, wind-blown dust and 24-hour noise? Does he not agree that reopening Rogerstone could destroy more jobs than it creates and blight the Newport jobs build-up? New high-tech jobs are coming to Newport in great numbers because it is a good place to work and live. High-tech firms do not sit comfortably as neighbours with mucky, old, heavy industry. Will the Secretary of State promise to bring his influence to bear to stop the reopening of Rogerstone, which could be a planning atrocity and an act of industrial vandalism, the like of which we have not seen for decades?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman's remarks will not be taken as an attack on coal-fired power stations, because if they are the National Union of Mineworkers will be interested in his observations. Of course, any power station would have to adhere strictly to the environmental regulations and controls that apply to all power stations. Most of the power stations in this country are coal-fired and I am surprised at the sort of attack that the hon. Gentleman has made.

Would my right hon. Friend use the word he used earlier to describe as surprising one of his Front-Bench colleagues if he were to come forward with a policy of attacking job opportunities in his constituency? Is that appropriate for a Front Bench spokesman? Should we not approach all job opportunity proposals positively, in the interests of further reviving the economy of Wales?

All job opportunities must be considered in terms of their total impact. Obviously, for a power station, environmental regulations and controls are of considerable importance, and they will be imposed.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the implications for Welsh housing of the proposed removal of tax relief on house improvement loans.

A married man on average earnings will be paying nearly £5 less per week in income tax as a result of the changes announced in the Budget. This will more than offset the tax relief attracted by the average home improvement loan in Wales. I do not believe that the removal of this support will have a significant impact on repair and renovation.

Is the Minister not ashamed that there are now a record 20,000 homeless families in Wales, that the housing conditions in the Cynon Valley are among the worst in the United Kingdom and that the removal of tax relief is regarded by all building societies as a major disincentive to people wishing to improve their homes? What evidence has he that there is widespread abuse, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer alleged in his Budget speech, and that home improvement loans are being used in Wales to buy cars and second holidays?

I was not aware that the hon. Lady thought that there was any great difference between Wales and England in these matters, but if she has any evidence of that, obviously we shall be interested to see it. She mentioned a whole raft of matters in her statement. It is interesting to note that the Cynon Valley home improvement agency is being established rather late in the day by her council with a considerable degree of help from the Welsh Office, which has been molly-coddling and helping her council for some time, as she knows.

Is it not astonishing of the Minister to assert in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) that there is no difference in this matter between Wales and England? He quoted the average earnings for the United Kingdom. Our earnings are substantially lower. He, more than anyone else, should be aware of the quality of Welsh housing compared with English housing and, therefore, of our greater need. Was that not an astonishingly complacent and ignorant reply?

The whole reason why the Government have quadrupled the amount of home improvement in Wales is that we recognised those faults, which, apparently, were overlooked by the Labour party.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many hospital beds there were in (a) Wales and (b) Clwyd in May 1979; and what is the current number.

The average daily number of beds available in 1979 was 3,052 in Clwyd and 23,456 in Wales. The number available in 1986 was 2,769 and 21,686 respectively. The numbers of patients treated, however, was 47,741 in Clwyd and 349,695 in Wales in 1979, compared with 57,519 in Clwyd and 433,870 in Wales in 1986.

Will the Minister ensure ugent and decisive action regarding the need of patients in Clwyd to journey to England for radiotherapy and other cancer treatments? Does he understand the distress and worry for families as well as patients who must undertake these journeys? May I tell him of an elderly constituent who finds the journey costly and distressing, and who would like to be treated in his native Deeside? Will the Minister take urgent action?

The hon. Gentleman will know that the Welsh Office is indeed looking into the whole provision of cancer treatment in north Wales, for the reasons that he mentioned. We are aware of them.

Will the Minister explain how, in making a speech in Builth Wells in my constituency last Friday, he said that the National Health Service did not require any more public funding, when in the same week Powys health authority announced the closure of 26 beds in St. David's hospital? Has that something to do with the formula associated with the number of private beds?

I think that it is worth pointing out that Powys health authority in-patient throughputs, both urgent and non-urgent, meet Welsh Office targets. That is a matter for congratulations. What I said was that it was not necessary to throw more money around to achieve better efficiency. We must get more efficiency out of the money that we already spend.

Does my hon. Friend agree that hospitals throughout Wales will be greatly helped by the most generous increase in nurses' pay that was announced last week? That increase contrasts with a cut in the real take-home pay of nurses under the previous Labour Government.

Indeed. The pay award means that expenditure in real terms on the Health Service in Wales under this Government has increased by more than 42 per cent. Nurses were not the only people to suffer under the previous Labour Government. Administrators, clerical grades, doctors and dentists also suffered cuts in real pay.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next expects to meet the chairmen of the Welsh health authorities; and what matters he hopes to discuss.

I will be meeting the Welsh health authorities' chairmen's committee on 14 June. An agenda for our meeting has not yet been fixed.

The Secretary of State will be aware that the Government have stated, time and time again, that they are committed to the principle of community care, but they have never made the resources available to match that commitment. When the Secretary of State next meets the chairmen of the Welsh health authorities, will he discuss with them the implications of the Griffiths report in England, which calls for greater partnership between social services dept and health authorities?

We have been discussing community service health board chairmen, and we shall continue to do so.

When the Secretary of State meets the chairmen of the health athorities, will he raise with them the problems of the delays in cervical smear testing and the reporting of the results? I have received a letter from a nurse in Whitland in my constituency. She expresses the concern and anxiety of many people at the three-month delay at the local hospital between carrying out the tests and reporting the results. The nurse points out that that delay can be the difference between life and death.

If the hon. Gentleman would care to send me the correspondence that he has had from the nurse, I shall certainly look into the matter.

Although I warmly welcome the nurses' pay rise and the Government's decision to fund it in full, will my right hon. Friend consider the position of medical laboratory scientific officers, whose pay increased by 5·6 per cent. less than the rate of inflation between 1 April 1979 and 1 April 1986? Will the Government reconsider the possibility of including them in the pay review body?

Nurses were specifically included in the pay review body primarily because of their agreement that they would not be involved in strike action. I am pleased to say that as a result of that, and the actions of the review body, a staff nurse today is receiving 110 per cent. more in salary than when we came into office.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what acreage of land he proposes to approve for afforestation during the current year.

There is no fixed programme of new planting in Wales. The level of planting will depend on a number of factors.

Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that Wales is making more than its fair contribution to British forestry policy? Will he confirm that there are some 10,000 hectares of land that have been cleared for afforestation in Wales, but have not yet been planted? In the light of those figures, how can he possibly justify refusing to extend to the areas of high environmental value in the uplands of Wales the same measure of protection as his counterpart in England has given to the English uplands?

It is not a question of the same measure of protection. In reality there is a considerable difference. There is little conifer planting in England, and it is a different scene from Wales. A number of hon. Members are aware of the requirements of the substantial paper industry in Wales and of the importance of ensuring that a future supply of conifers in Wales. Every decision will he taken after fully considering the environmental interest.

I recognise my right hon. Friend's great interest in arboricultural matters. Will he confirm that there is a need in the Principality, as there is in England, for sensible lowland broadleaved woodland planting schemes as well as the coniferous upland afforestation?

I welcome the new grants that have been provided, as I believe that they will provide a number of opportunities in the lowland areas of Wales for better planting of broadleaved trees.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is an inherent conflict in his role as national parks and agriculture Minister and that of forestry Minister? Therefore, does he accept that it is high time that afforestation in the national parks were subject to planning consent in the normal way?

I am well aware of the environmental and forestry considerations in the balance that I must strike. I know of no great criticisms. We wish to retain the beauty of the national parks and to have a successful forestry and paper industry in Wales. I think that both can be achieved.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales on how many occasions he has met the chairman of British Rail to discuss the future of rail services in the Principality.

I met Sir Robert Reid on 5 February 1988.

Does the Secretary of State agree that major issues such as the Channel tunnel and electrification of the south Wales line are not just operational matters for British Rail but could have major implications for Wales? Will he intervene with British Rail, first, to ensure that the opportunities presented by the Channel tunnel are fully grasped and, secondly, to press for the electrification of the south Wales line?

Sir Robert Reid is enthusiastic about the prospects of British Rail in Wales, and I am delighted to say that he is entering into specific consultations on how we will benefit from the Channel tunnel, how it will be handled, the improvement of passenger services and the improvement of surburban services from the valleys. Many actions are being taken, and British Rail is taking a positive view.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Commissioners are taking to support celebrations of the 500th anniversary of the birth of Thomas Cranmer.

The Commissioners have at present no plans regarding such celebrations.

Bearing in mind that Thomas Cranmer was the architect of the Prayer Book, and that the Prayer Book is the birthright of the reformed Church of England and the bedrock of its doctrine, will my right hon. Friend encourage those responsible to ensure that the anniversary is observed? Does he agree that the refusal of the Post Office to issue a commemorative stamp is hardly an auspicious start?

I hope that my hon. Friend will be reassured to learn that plans are afoot, through Lambeth palace, to mark this important anniversary.

Will the Commissioner make representations to the Post Office to get it to reverse its decision? Given some of the events that the Post Office commemorates with stamp issues, should not this rank high on the list?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I shall do my best to make effective representations through the proper channels.

Although I believe that Cranmer came down on the wrong side of the fence—or perhaps I should say stake—would it not be as well, in this anniversary year if his splendid prayers and collects were studied by the Anglo-Americans, who shamefully mistranslated the Latin rites into banal English, and by those to whom will fall the task of revising them?

I shall weigh carefully what my hon. Friend has said on a sensitive area of possible division. He will recall that Cranmer coined the phrase "the Church militant"—before the word "militant" took on a more political connotation. I am confident that the Church militant will prove to be the Church triumphant, unlike the Militant Tendency.

I am all for commemorating Archbishop Cranmer's birth, but what about Bishops Hooper, Ridley and Latimer——

Order. The question is about Thomas Cranmer.

My point is that they all suffered similar fates. Indeed, if they had burnt a few more Ridleys, we might not have had the poll tax Bill. The Bishop of Durham should be grateful for the fact that the Prime Minister does not have the powers that Queen Mary had in 1555. If she had, the pungent smell of roast cleric might be wafting up our nostrils now.

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to show that the Church Commissioners are not 100 per cent. supporters and admirers of Thomas Cranmer. The hon.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, how much will be spent by the Church Commissioners on the Synod project related to "Faith in the City"; what proportion of the total expenditure this represents; to what areas of lay and spiritual activity the money will be allocated; and if he will make a statement.

The Measure enabling the Church Commissioners to make grants to the Church urban fund was approved by this House on 12 April and will be considered in another place tomorrow. If the Measure receives Royal Assent, the Commissioners will make a grant of £1 million from their surplus income in 1987 and will consider repeating that in 1988 and subsequent years —£1 million represents 0·6 per cent. of their expenditure in 1987. The money will be used by the trustees of the fund to support the Church's work in urban priority areas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the need for a massive Church effort in rural areas, where vicars sometimes have to look after as many as 10 or even 15 parishes on their own? They feel that their efforts and their parishes are funding the "Faith in the City" effort. Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to ensure that a special effort is made to get more clergy into the countryside as well as into the towns, and that rural clergymen are given their share of concern?

I assure my hon. Friend that the Church Commissioners do. indeed, contribute to other deprived areas, including rural deprived areas, through other sources and by other means than contributions to the Church urban fund. That substantial contribution to other areas, including rural areas, will continue.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the cost in overtime, other payments and overheads of sittings of the House beyond 10 o'clock for each year from 1958 for which records exist.

The responsibility for overtime worked by House of Commons staff lies with Heads of Departments. Authorised submissions to the Fees Office for payment of overtime, while specifying the duration of the extra work, do not indicate the time covered. The information is, therefore, not available in the form requested and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost.

Will the hon. Member answering for the House of Commons Commission go away and try to get some accurate information? He will be aware, as will you, Mr. Speaker, that in 1945 only two sittings of the House went beyond 12 o'clock at night, whereas the average is now two a week. That not only entails massive costs but, reflects upon the Government's ability to get their business through—not just this Government, but others. Will the hon. Gentleman make recommendations on behalf of the House of Commons Commission to the Procedure Committee, when it is established, to ensure that proper overtime payments are made, that the costs to the House are reduced and that hon. Members can get on with their job at a seemly hour?

Having served on Procedure Committees that have made recommendations on this matter, I have considerable sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, but the job of the Commission is to ensure that the decisions that the House itself makes to sit late are implemented with satisfactory staff support, for which proper overtime payments are made.

Can the hon. Gentleman get the statistics for the costs of keeping open the many bars in and around the Houses of Parliament, particularly the Press Bar? Does that involve a cost on the House? Is the taxpayer having to subsidise it to keep the journalists here after hours? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could address himself in particular to the Smoking Room, where most of the Tory Members do their boozing, and check on journalists, many of whom used to inhabit such places but for some reason do not any more, who write articles about it.

The hon. Gentleman raises some interesting matters, but his questions about the profitability of the various bars will have to be addressed to the Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House whether I am right in saying that considerable extra cost is incurred after 11 pm in providing transport for all the staff, who then go home by taxi, no matter how far away they live? If that is, indeed, the case, may we have the figures showing the additional transport costs for sittings that continue after 11 pm?

I wondered whether my hon. Friend was going to offer lifts in his taxi. Provision is, indeed, made for late-night transport for staff who have to work beyond the times at which public transport is available. Whether or not the House sits late, some of that transport has to be used by staff whose work for the Official Report and on other duties continues after the House has risen. Additional costs are, of course, incurred when the House sits late.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what plans the Church Commissioners have to replace trees recently lost on their lands and to contribute to broad-leaved woodland planting schemes.

In the areas affected by the October hurricane the Church Commissioners propose to undertake replanting mainly in the 1988–89 season. It is the Commissioners' policy to maintain and enhance the plantations on their agricultural estates. They are considering the scope for establishing new broadleaved plantations in accordance with current EC and Government grant schemes and initiatives.

As most of the damage to Church property during the October hurricane was caused to trees on land owned by the Church Commissioners, my right hon. Friend's answer will be widely welcomed. May I commend to him that the Church plays an even more active part this year in National Tree Week, which is to be organised by the Tree Council in November, by going ahead with its replanting schemes on a massive scale during that month?

I note with appreciation my hon. Friend's comments. He may like to know that the Church Commissioners planted over 10,000 trees in 1987. Because of the damage caused by the hurricane, we expect to plant a great many more.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what recommendations of the Procedure Committee in the last Parliament have not been brought before the House for decision.

Four reports of the Procedure Committee in the last Parliament have not so far been debated or implemented. They are on the allocation of time to Government Bills in Standing Committee; short speeches, a parliamentary calendar, and on the use of time on the Floor of the House. A Government motion relating to the report on short speeches is at present on the Order Paper, and I hope that this can be decided upon by the House in the near future.

Is the Lord President aware that in addition to the report on the ten-minute speech rule there are a number of other items, such as the parliamentary calendar, drawn from outstanding reports and including such matters as the timetabling of Bills, which many hon. Members think it is important to debate? When will the right hon. Gentleman find time for a debate on those and other outstanding recommendations of the Procedure Committee, and what is his projected date for the establishment of the new Procedure Committee so that new Members in particular may make clear how they regard the rules of this club?

With regard to the hon. Gentleman's second point, as I said on Thursday, I hope to be able later this week to table a motion setting up the new Procedure Committee. The hon. Gentleman asked about the outstanding reports of the Procedure Committee. I am having discussions with hon. Members in all parts of the House about the best way forward. The Procedure Committee concluded, and I agree, that it would not be practicable or right to recommend radical changes that would be opposed by a large body of opinion in the House. Therefore, I am trying to get as much support as possible for change. I hope to arrange a debate in the near future.

Will my right hon. Friend ask the Procedure Committee whether it would have agreed with the Leader of the Opposition when he excused the hon. Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Hughes) who was thrown out of this House for interrupting Prayers, and when he said that he understood the hooligan antics of his hon. Friend when they disrupted the proceedings during the Budget which caused the sitting to be suspended? It seems that the Leader of the Opposition has changed his mind recently about the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown) although his Whips, of course, two of whom abstained, did not do so. In the past, of course, the Leader of the Opposition has supported many of these antics.

I hope that the Procedure Committee will be set up with general terms of reference. It will be open to the Committee to choose the subjects that it wishes to discuss, and it will be open to any hon. Member, including the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition or my hon. Friend, to give evidence to the Committee if he wishes to do so.

In relation to the timetabling of Bills, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many hon. Members, when they first come to the House, are full of enthusiasm for getting home at midnight, if not earlier? When they have been here some time they understand that. on occasions, time is the only thing that the Opposition have if they are to hold up and properly debate Government Bills. That goes for all Governments. Before rushing into the timetabling of Bills, will the right hon. Gentleman consider that some of us believe that the Opposition have to oppose Bills when they think that those Bills are wrong? If that means that sometimes hon. Members, and especially younger hon. Members, have to go through the night, that is what ought to be done, rather than tying it up with the Government and letting them get away with things.

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I hope that he is not accusing my or any other Conservative Member of trying to rush into changing the procedures of the House. I agree that proper discussion is necessary before we make radical changes to the procedures of the House.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what recent representations he has received about facilities available to visitors to the House.

In addition to two parliamentary questions, one from the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer), and one from the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), I have recently received representations from two hon. Members concerning unrelated aspects of the provision of facilities for visitors to the House.

Will my right hon. Friend consider improving arrangements for visitors queuing to get into the Strangers Gallery? If we are to have television cameras in the House, will he consider making available closed-circuit television in Westminster Hall for those who are unable to get into the Gallery?

Obviously, we could consider that suggestion. However, first of all we must proceed with setting up the experiment for televising the House, and the Select Committee is working on that at the moment. I think that my hon. Friend's suggestion could be examined, but it probably will have to wait until we have gone through the other processes.

Could not facilities for visitors be improved? People come from all over the country, they are often tired and hungry, yet the only facilities available are the Strangers' Cafeteria and the Members' Cafeteria, where hon. Members are limited to three people per Member——

It is two now.

I understand that it is now two visitors per Member. Can we make some useful innovations, such as turning the Royal Gallery into a lounge for visitors—the people who pay for this place—and provide cafeteria facilities there, instead of allowing their Lordships a handful of lounges in which to lounge around, and ensure that the public, instead of the geriatric wing down the corridor, get the facilities?

I have a feeling that if the hon. Gentleman wishes to improve the facilities for visitors in the House he has not suggested the most easy and practical way to make progress. In a recent written answer I told him that the existing facilities of the Palace of Westminster are already full to capacity and that no other suitable accommodation is readily available. The situation is unlikely to change until after extra catering accommodation becomes available in the new building. At that time the Catering Sub-Committee of the Services Committee may wish to give the matter further consideration.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to improve the catering facilities on the Terrace of the House; at what cost to public funds; what the subsequent availability and capacity of this facility will be; what functions are expected to be held there; and if he will make a statement.

The Services Committee and the House of Commons Commission have approved in principle the provision in 1989 of a replacement tented pavilion of approximately the same dimensions as the existing facility. The relevant Services Sub-Committees will continue to monitor plans for this redevelopment and no final decision will be taken until a detailed and fully-costed feasibility study is available for consideration.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great pressure from the House and from the public for the facilities on the Terrace? Will he seek to make available all-year-round catering facilities to hon. Members, to which members of the public can come if invited?

At this stage we are awaiting detailed proposals from the Catering Sub-Committee. It is aware of the pressure on the services that it provides, and no doubt will put forward relevant and interesting proposals for the Services Committee to consider.

The Leader of the House must be aware that we treat our visitors abysmally in terms of the facilities that are available, because they are not able to take advantage of the few facilities that we have. Will the right hon. Gentleman look very carefully at a number of proposals that have been made to him, particularly the suggestion that Westminster Hall should be used during the summer? Westminster Hall is a huge, empty space and it is scandalous that it should be so under-used. Perhaps during the summer visitors could go there to get some refreshment.

I recognise that to some people that might be an improvement in the situation, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that although the use of Westminster Hall might improve matters, it would also present practical problems. I am sure that the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee could consider that suggestion.

Would not one way of improving the catering facilities and the general well-being of hon. Members be to increase the variety of bottled water available to hon. Members, particularly since before Easter we were told on the Floor of the House that, in addition to English, Scottish and French waters, we would also have Welsh water? Where is the Welsh water?

I agree with the hon. Lady. I like to drink Welsh water whenever I can. I do not know the answer to the question, but if she and I together make representations in the right quarter, we might he successful.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what action he takes when early-day motions are brought to his attention at business questions.

These are referred to the Minister with responsibility for the issue raised and any action that seems appropriate is taken.

To which Minister did the Lord President refer early-day motions 228, 253, 272, 273 and 286? As he was intimately involved, according to Mr. Peter Jenkins in his book, in all the crucial meetings concerned with how to deal with the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) on Westland, does he refer to himself—that would be a problem—or does he refer to the Prime Minister? If he refers to the Prime Minister, what is he going to do about her organised mendacity on the subject?

Order. The hon. Gentleman must withdraw that phrase making an allegation against an individual Member of the House, to wit the Prime Minister.

Then it must be a shameless lack of candour.

It may be a disappointment to the hon. Gentleman, but when he asks supplementary questions these days, what he says does not come as a great surprise to the Minister at the Dispatch Box. Thus, most Ministers come, like myself, prepared to answer his supplementary question with the phrase, "I have nothing further to add."