To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Wales tourist board; and what was discussed.

I frequently meet the chairman of the Wales tourist board to discuss many matters of mutual interest.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply and declare an interest in the industry. Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us who have an interest in these matters have long felt that things in tourism are done rather better in Wales than in England? Will he accept congratulations on that? In view of the current review of tourism has my right hon. Friend discussed with our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment—and if he has not, I hope that he will—the structure of tourism in Wales?

Declare an interest.

I have already declared an interest. Will my right hon. Friend tell me whether the Wales tourist board, or other agencies, will still be able to distribute grant as required to areas of Wales where development is still needed?

Tourism is of incredible importance to Wales in bringing in people who will look at the commercial and industrial prospects of Wales and, of course, in providing jobs and opportunities in rural and coastal areas. That is why the board's net budget for 1988–89 will be 90 per cent. more than it was in 1983–84. Section 4 assistance to the industry has tripled from £1 million to nearly £3·3 million during the same period and has been of great advantage to the economy of Wales.

If we are to fill up the beds in our very welcome Holiday Inn in Swansea, we need, as the Secretary of State will be aware, to clean up Swansea bay. Is he satisfied that we shall not be able to comply with the EC bathing waters directive until 1995 at the earliest? Does he recognise the link between the directive and clean beaches in Wales as a whole?

Yes, of course I do. I am glad to say that immense capital investment is going into that, which did not happen under the last Labour Government.

Given the common problems faced by the tourist industry in Wales and the more remote parts of England such as Cornwall, will my right hon. Friend tell me why on earth section 4 grants under the Development of Tourism Act 1969 are being suspended in England whereas, as he says, they are being tripled in Wales? What is the fairness of that?

In fairness, they have not been tripled in Wales this year, but over the past few years. Section 4 grants have been continuing in England. The report that my right hon. Friend has had will be discussed with those concerned and conclusions must be reached on the English tourist industry on the basis of information on inward investments coming into the English tourist industry. I have to make decisions on the Welsh tourist industry.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any plans to meet in the near future the chairman of British Coal to discuss the state of the Welsh coalfield.

I am in touch regularly with the chairman and deputy chairman to discuss issues of mutual interest.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman, will he tell him of the deep anger and resentment in west Wales that British Coal is walking away from the anthracite coalfield, with its enormous reserves of high quality and saleable coal? Will he urge the chairman to carry out a study of the economics of mining anthracite from small drift mines employing up to 75 people because many believe that mined in that way, anthracite could be extremely saleable and competitive in relation both to opencast operations and imports of Chinese coal?

I shall convey the views expressed to the chairman of British Coal and I shall also examine, within the Welsh Office, the suggestion about smaller units employing fewer than 75 people and what economic impact that would have. The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion is constructive.

Will the Secretary of State note that British Coal Opencast has decided again to try for permission to work the Bryn Henllys site in my constituency, after an inspector turned down that application about a year ago? Is he aware that there is deep anger in the community that British Coal will attempt that again? Is there not far too much opencast coal in the south Wales coalfield, which is despoiling the environment?

In making decisions about opencast coal applications, one must consider carefully both the short-term and long-term environmental implications. I hasten to add that when I was responsible, as Secretary of State for the Environment, for such developments in England, I found that, with certain conditions one could improve the environment over a period of years. However, such applications must be looked at carefully bearing in mind the whole environmental question.

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the miners at Point of Air in my constituency for their dramatically increased productivity since the miners' strike? Will he confirm that over £130 million has been invested in the coal industry in Wales since 1985, and that our record compares favourably with that of the Labour party which, during its last two terms in office, closed a total of 56 pits in the Principality?

I must correct my hon. Friend. In their last two terms, the Labour Government closed 62 pits. However, the closure of pits brings no joy to any party. Problems such as geology often affect such decisions. Although I deeply regret the closures of pits for mainly economic reasons as that creates problems, the increase in productivity has been helpful in that respect.

Does the Secretary of State recall that when he was a Minister in the Department of Energy, he was responsible for several colliery closures in Wales? Does he realise that the mining fraternity has been reduced from 22,000 in 1979, to fewer than 8,000 now and that in my constituency seven collieries have been closed and 5,000 miners made redundant? Will he accept that his valleys initiative is not making any dent in unemployment in the valleys?

I know that the hon. Gentleman will be delighted that since the valleys initiative was announced, unemployment in the valleys has fallen faster than it has in the rest of Wales. In response to his anxiety, perhaps he will send me quotations of what he said during the period of the last Labour Government when 30,980 jobs were lost in the mining industry in Wales.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the south Wales coalfield is apprehensive, especially in the light of the 1,500 jobs at the Cynheidre and Marine collieries and the 500 jobs elsewhere that are under review? Why has the Carway Fawr project been halted, after £34 million worth of investment? If the reason is geological, that is incompetence of the highest order, but if it is because of the prospect of privatisation, it is a scandal.

I can quite understand the hon. Gentleman's neurosis. I shall make sure that I send him a copy of my speech tomorrow, which will give detail after detail of what is actually taking place in the valleys. When the hon. Gentleman has seen all the details, he should compare them with what went on in the valleys when he was a Minister. I should be delighted to see the comparison.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of applicants for section 4 grants under the Development of Tourism Act 1969, the number approved and the value awarded, for each year since 1980; and if he will make a statement.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall circulate the information in the Official Report and I shall also place a copy in the Library.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he confirm that hoteliers and those who so successfully manage tourist attractions in Wales will not suffer the problems that beset their colleagues in England because of the Secretary of State for Employment who has suspended section 4 assistance? Will he confirm that section 4 is of great value to the Principality?

I can certainly confirm that there has been a considerable increase in the number of applications for section 4 assistance from 1980–81, when there were 160 applications, to the current year's forecast of 224 applications. Of course, the number of applications approved has increased over the years, as has the assistance offered. I can also confirm that the section 4 scheme is not being suspended in Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment made his statement on 31 January suspending, as I understand it, further applications for section 4 assistance in England.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales by what percentage unemployment has fallen in Wales since June 1987.

Between June 1987 and January 1989, seasonally adjusted unemployment has fallen in Wales by 40,900, from 12·6 to 9·2 per cent., a decrease of over 27 per cent.

How does that fall compare with the fall in England? What contribution has the increase in self-employment made?

I believe that I am correct in saying that, in terms of a percentage fall in unemployment, the north-west of England, the west midlands and Wales have been the three best regions of the United Kingdom. There has been a substantial increase in self-employment during that period. I will send my hon. Friend the full details.

With Welsh coalfields in a near terminal condition, with massive redundancies in the steel industry, including a major closure, is this the time for the Government to come forward with proposals to double the toll on the Severn bridge, our main access point? Why does the Secretary of State not plead with the Chancellor to get rid of that additional tax on the people of Wales?

As I have pointed out many times to the hon. Gentleman, the toll on the Severn bridge was imposed during the period of a Labour Government. The toll on the Severn bridge was kept throughout the terms of all Labour Governments. Unlike the Labour Government, we will swiftly deliver a second bridge. When I read the headlines of the hon. Gentleman's local paper, I found that there is deep concern because there are not enough sites for industrial development. With the enormous demand that is taking place in Newport, the hon. Gentleman is benefiting more than most from the change in the Welsh economy.

Do movements in the unemployment figures result from differences between jobs lost and jobs gained? Is it not a fact that most of the jobs lost have been in industries belonging to the last century and that most of the jobs gained are in industries with a bright future?

Yes, Sir. In the period that I mentioned, there have been substantial further job losses in the coal industry and some further job losses in the steel industry. The diversity of the Welsh economy will be one of the greatest benefits to Wales in the years that lie ahead.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Welsh Development Agency has identified the television and film industry as one of the growth sectors to develop more jobs in Gwynedd? In those circumatances, is he aware that his personal veto this morning on the urban plan to provide the shell of a building for a new studio to develop the industry in Caernarfon is seen as sabotage of prospects for that sector? Is he aware that that is contrary to indications given by his civil servants, not only to the company but to the county council and to the Welsh Development Agency? As a result of his veto, the company stands to lose £50,000 to £60,000. Is that his contribution to the economy of the area?

I deplore the hon. Gentleman's emotional words. If he has evidence that any official in the Welsh Office in any way said to anybody that this grant would be made, he had better provide it. Whoever did so will certainly be seen by me. He has made an allegtion, and I expect him to substantiate it.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the major ways in which unemployment has been reduced in Wales is through the Government's regional policy of relocating Civil Service and other Government agency jobs to the regions and Wales? Does he find it surprising that some Opposition Members are opposed to relocation?

Relocation has had one remarkable effect on Wales. We now have in the Principality the head office of the Export Credits Guarantee Department and the Patent Office. The Companies Registration Office is also in Wales. When I was Secretary of State for Trade and Industry most of those Departments were in London. 1 am glad to say that they are now in Wales.

Instead of making pussy-footing radio statements on the 1,000 steel job losses, why did the Secretary of State not fight for them? There are now 3,000 steel and coal job losses ahead. On his first real challenge since his appointment, the Secretary of State has run away. The right hon. Gentleman is all talk and no fight. Does he not realise the bitterness of the steelworkers, who were in no way consulted? Before Christmas they were offered shares; now they are offered the dole. The right hon. Gentleman has funked his responsibilities. Where is the meat?

During the period of this enormous fall in unemployment, there has been an enormous surge of inward investment and great diversification of the economy. The only role of the Labour party is to stir up any bad news that it can get hold of to give a bad image of Wales. The hon. Gentleman was a Minister in the Welsh Office—[Interruption.]—10 years ago when major steel closures were announced. I am delighted that the Welsh steel industry is now modern and has a high level of investment. Will the hon. Gentleman pledge himself to renationalise the steel industry?

Answer.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to stimulate and encourage research into environmental matters in Wales.

The Welsh Office has commissioned a number of research projects into environmental matters related to my right hon. Friend's responsibilities in Wales, and with permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall circulate a list in the Official Report and place a copy in the Library of the House.

Will the Minister also circulate a list of those items that are being deleted and undermined by him and his right hon. Friend? When the Minister considers the proposed closure of research vessel support services at Barry, the destruction of the environmental research centre at Bangor, the threat to the environment from the Water Bill and the failure of Government Ministers to obtain a separate water authority for Wales, does he agree that the Secretary of State is presiding over the destruction of environmental research in Wales?

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman took a little too long in preparing that question. I have read his speech in this House, in which he made most of those points, and some of his contributions in the Water Bill Committee, in which he made other points which have been well answered by my hon. Friend the Minister of State. The research vessel services from Barry are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. I understand that the move has been made for the best scientific reasons.

The Minister is right to say that the Department of Education and Science is formally and departmentally responsible. But, in pursuit of joint oversight responsibilities for these facilities in Wales, did the Secretary of State for Wales plead with that Department on the ground of regional policy alone—as is pointed out in the early-day motion of the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower), who is sadly absent today—that it makes no sense to move hi-tech jobs in Government research and development from an area such as south Wales to an overheated area in the south-east of England?

The hon. Gentleman, too, is repeating what he said in the debate. This is a decision by the Natural Environment Research Council and it is for the best scientific reasons. There is no other similar institute which has its vessel separate from its main body. Southampton university will be a world-wide centre of excellence for oceanographic research.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of the Wrexham and East Denbighshire water company; and what matters they discussed.

I have had no recent meeting with representatives of the company.

Will the Minister confirm that the Wrexham and East Denbighshire water company will not be offered the protection under the Water Bill that is available to the Welsh water authority? Will he confirm, therefore, that it will be open to hostile and foreign bids and that such a bid could provide a foothold in the Welsh water industry for further takeovers? If protection is good for the Welsh water authority, why is it not good for the Wrexham water company?

The hon. Gentleman knows the answer to the first part of his question. As the company is worth less than £30 million, it does not come under the same rules as the water authority when privatised. But we have nothing against foreign investment in British companies, and I cannot think why the hon. Gentleman should take that line. I expect that he appreciates that about 30 per cent. of water in the United States is owned by French companies, and I have not heard the Americans yelling.

Will the Minister talk to the Wrexham and East Denbighshire water company? Is he aware that only last week there was another incident of water pollution where a known carcinogen, formaldehyde, was tipped into the river and only fortuitously the company's intakes were closed at the time? There is a general lack of belief in Wrexham that the Welsh Office intends to clean up the River Dee. When will the Welsh Office, and its agent the Welsh water authority, prosecute those people successfully and give the public the confidence that their water is clean and fit to drink?

The hon. Gentleman had better prove that it is not clean and fit to drink. I have no proof of that. The responsibility for the serious incident to which he referred was shared among several water authorities. I believe that further steps are being taken.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his Department's strategy for dealing with acute poverty and deprivation in the Cynon Valley and other districts with a high percentage of low-income households.

It is difficult to answer such a question in the short time available for a parliamentary answer. As this Government are carrying out massive programmes of expenditure in the Cynon Valley in education, health, housing improvements, factory building, derelict land clearance, urban aid, regional grants and training, I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, circulate the details in the Official Report and place a copy in the Library.

Does the Secretary of State's statement today show an increase of 67 per cent. in the money that will be spent in the valleys of south Wales? That represents £7 million, which is made up of £1 million for inflation and £2·6 million for the garden festival, leaving only £3 million for all the valleys of south Wales. Is it not yet another of the Secretary of State's hot air balloons? How will it help the people of Cynon Valley—the poorest district in Wales, the district with most of the problems that have been identified in the surveys conducted for HTV by the Cardiff business school, and the area where 60 per cent. of households have incomes of £4,000 a year or less? Has the Secretary of State read the last sentence of the Cardiff business school report, which states:

"If, as we are led to believe, Wales is drawing on a new era, nobody has informed Mountain Ash about it."?

Although I had intended to publish my detailed answer in the Official Report, in view of the hon. Lady's long supplementary question, I shall place my answer on the record now. Since January 1986, the number of unemployed claimants has fallen by 27 per cent. Since 1984 regional industrial support has been provided towards capital investment of £79 million, with associated forecasts of about 3,900 jobs. More than £11·5 million has been spent on a broad range of training measures. The Welsh Development Agency has provided more than 500,000 sq ft of new factory floor space. Land reclamation covering 600 acres and costing about £6 million has been completed. Economic regeneration in the area has been supported through the allocation of more than £5 million of urban programme resources. More than 6,000 houses in the constituency have been improved.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the very ambitious urban aid programme that was announced today will be warmly welcomed and that there will be special pleasure that Clwyd has not suffered at the hands of south Wales, although we should have liked to see more projects? Is he aware that there will be general satisfaction with the help that he has given to St. Asaph business park, which is one of the best developments to have emerged in Rhuddlan for a long time?

The urban aid programme to the Principality is of particular help to north Wales. Although the biggest concentration of help is in the valleys, in total the programme will do much good, create many jobs and improve the environment throughout Wales. Our record compares unbelievably well with that of the previous Government who were responsible for such matters.

Does not the so-called initiative for our valleys involve more fantasy than reality? What our valleys want are better schools, better hospitals and better housing. Does the Secretary of State not accept that our valley councils have lost more in rate support grant over the past 10 years than he has given them in new money in the latest package? Does he not also accept that much of his programme was going to come about in any event, that he has deliberately delayed the urban programme announcement, that six of our valleys are still not designated areas under the Act and that a proper revitalisation of the valleys would require massive and genuinely new investment spread over at least eight years, not advertising hype spread over three?

I do not blame the hon. Gentleman for making such a speech just before a by-election, but I am glad to tell him that tomorrow I shall go through every detail of the valleys programme and I look forward to the Labour party publishing beside each item what the Labour Government achieved in their last five years. I look forward to reading that comparison. I can only say that in dealing with derelict land, providing new jobs and building factories we dwarf anything that the Labour party ever contemplated.

Since January 1986 the number of unemployed claimants in the Aberdare travel to work area has fallen by 27 per cent. Since 1984 regional industrial support has been provided towards capital investment of £79 million with associated forecast of some 3,900 new and 900 safeguarded jobs. Over £11·5 million has been spent on a broad range of training measures, including YTS and wider opportunities for women.

The Welsh Development Agency has provided over 500,000 sq ft of new factory floor space since 1979 and within its current programme the agency is planning to build a further 16 units. Land reclamation covering 600 acres and costing some £6 million has been completed or is under way or planned.

Economic regeneration in the area has also been supported through the allocation of over £5 million of urban programme resource since 1979 towards schemes submitted by Cynon Valley borough council. In addition this morning I have announced more than a further £1 million for 1989–90.

The Government have made a substantial investment towards the cost of improving the A4059 at Aberdare and Abercynon. Furthermore, the Welsh Office has supported the county council's proposal which led to the reopening in September 1988 of the passenger rail link to Aberdare.

On housing since 1979, work on over 6,000 grant improvement projects, costing £19 million, has been completed in addition to enveloping schemes on 450 dwellings at a cost of £3·3 million. Schemes are in hand to improve an additional 500 homes at a cost of £4·5 million.

In the last five years, £9 million has been spent on improving school buildings in the area, and an allocation of £800,000 has recently been made towards the cost of providing a 40-bed unit for the elderly at Aberdare general hospital.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he intends to make any proposals to alleviate the impact on the ports of south Wales of proposed barrage schemes.

I am not aware of any direct adverse effects on port activities in south Wales arising from current barrage proposals.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a clear distinction between the proposed Severn barrage, which could severely affect all ports and port-related industries in and around the area, and other barrages such as the Cardiff bay barrage, which will have no such effect?

There have been full consultations with the port authorities about the Cardiff bay barrage, which is the one for which I have responsibility, and I do not believe that it will have an adverse effect. As for the Severn barrage, the proposal will need to be examined thoroughly before any conclusions are reached. Clearly, however, the port interests will have to be considered carefully before any such proposal is made.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Cardif business school has reported on the barrage and on the valleys of south Wales? Will he tell us why he refused to give an interview on the television programme referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd)? Is it true that, while refusing to be interrogated by the House and on television, he is carrying out government by press conference, as he is holding one tomorrow? Is it true that he is beginning to unravel? Is Peter the piffle artist becoming Peter the pimpernel, who is never around when there is bad news about?

As for that last phrase, the hon. Gentleman obtained coverage in this morning's papers, and I am surprised that he has repeated it for tomorrow's.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the present state of the Health Service in Wales.

Record numbers of doctors and nurses are treating record numbers of patients. The increase in resources that we propose for the Health Service in 1989 will enable the NHS to extend its remarkable record of achievement.

I am sure that the Minister is aware that the people of mid-Wales are succeeding in their concerted effort to raise £500,000 to install a scanner at Bronglais hospital, Aberystwyth. I am sure that he is also aware of the view of the majority of those people that the Government should re-establish the Mid-Wales health authority. Will he give an assurance that he will consider the matter, and also tell us the latest developments on the building of the second phase of the hospital?

There are no proposals at present for the re-establishment of the Mid-Wales health authority. I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman raise the subject of the scanner proposal, and I wish it the best of success.

If any new hospitals are built in Wales, such as the East Glamorgan hospital, will the funding for those hospitals, in terms of capital costs, be entirely met by the Welsh Office or, as a result of last week's disclosure in Construction News, are we to take it that Treasury guidelines to introduce private sector money into such building will mean that the commitment from the Welsh Office will be less?

The hon. Gentleman should know that we are still awaiting the proposals of the Mid-Glamorgan health authority for the funding of that new hospital. When we see those proposals we shall arrive at a judgment. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have no intention to cut the necessary construction of new hospitals, such as that to replace East Glamorgan hospital.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the National Health Service review as it affects Wales

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the Government's National Health Service review, "Working for Patients", as it caters for the distinctive health care needs and circumstances in Wales.

The conclusions of my review of the National Health Service in Wales are included in the White Paper "Working for Patients", Cm. 555. I am confident that by increasing the responsibility and accountability of those working in the service, by increasing patient choice, and by ensuring appropriate rewards for those who deliver results, my proposals will lead to even better patient care for the people of Wales.

Does the Secretary of State agree that there is great concern in rural Wales that the opt-out proposals in the review are totally unsuitable to that area and that the general practitioner services mentioned in the review are not properly structured to deliver the sort of services that should be provided in mid-Wales?

I can understand the hon. Gentleman expressing his concern about the opting-out of hospitals in rural Wales, having looked at some of the press comments on the proposals. When the hon. Gentleman sees the working papers he will discover that no hospital will be able to ask for trust status unless it agrees to carry out the whole range of services that must be undertaken in that area. Thereafter, it will be the responsibility of the Welsh Office to monitor those hospitals to ensure that they carry out all those services. I promise the hon. Gentleman that no trust hospitals will be created without those hospitals first agreeing to the totality of their obligations and without their being monitored thereafter to see that they fulfil those obligations.

As the review referred to a much higher incidence of heart disease, strokes and most forms of cancer in Wales compared to the rest of the United Kingdom, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the Health Promotion Authority for Wales will have a much higher profile than it has had and a budget to match? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the authority's detailed proposals will be published before the summer, and will those proposals include advertising campaigns on tobacco and alcohol abuse, which account for more than 100,000 deaths a year in the United Kingdom?

I share my hon. Friend's concern and that is why in the Welsh section of the White Paper I strongly stressed the importance of health promotion and the preventive side of health in Wales, which have an enormous contribution to make. At the moment I am examining a large number of detailed proposals that have been put to me. We have a meeting within the next couple of weeks to discuss those proposals and I assure my hon. Friend that we will publish the details as quickly as possible.

In the light of the White Paper, what importance should the public in Wales now place on the 10-year plans being prepared by health authorities and considered by his Department? Will the right hon. Gentleman exempt Wales from the opting-out schemes, which could make those plans meaningless?

No. The hon. Gentleman must give more careful thought to the detail of what he describes as the "opting-out schemes". Those schemes do not represent opting out, as hospitals will remain within the National Health Service. By opting out one decides to delegate some of the managerial decisions to a lower level. If that can be done with improved efficiency with the whole range of services continuing to be carried out, there is no reason why the Secretary of State for Wales should not give approval to such a scheme. Thereafter, however, the Secretary of State and the Welsh Office will have the duty to monitor such a scheme. Such schemes should be judged on their merits and improved efficiency and they should mean that, in total, the hospitals still carry out all the functions required in the district.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest percentage unemployed for (a) Wales and (b) each of the five employment areas with the highest level of unemployment in Wales at that date.

On 12 January 1989 the seasonally adjusted unemployed rate in Wales was 9·2 per cent. The unadjusted rates for the five travel-to-work areas with the highest unemployment on 12 January 1989 were Pwllheli, 19·1 per cent.; Cardigan, 18·9 per cent.; south Pembrokeshire, 18·8 per cent.; Aberdare, 18·4 per cent.; and Holyhead, 18·3 per cent. I am pleased to say that unemployment in all these areas has fallen dramatically in the last 12 months—by 21 per cent. in Pwllheli; by 22 per cent. in Cardigan; by 25 per cent. in south Pembrokeshire; by 13 per cent. in Aberdare and by 16 per cent. in Holyhead.

Do not these figures of between 18 and 20 per cent. in unemployment black spots, when compared to the levels of 2 and 3 per cent. in Hertfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire, give the lie to the public relations exercise that the Secretary of State is undertaking which says that the economy of Wales is coming right? Will he now reconsider his advice that local initiative will solve all these problems, given that he has undermined local initiative in the example quoted earlier about people who have been willing to put up £1·7 million of locally raised money for a project which was undermined by the Welsh Office?

Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is emotionally carried away by this decision. I think that he should explain—

It matters.

I think that he should explain that virtually all the money for that project was to be public expenditure. The local authority and central Government were asked to provide it all.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what publications the Church Commissioners plan during 1989.

During 1989 the Church Commissioners will be producing a range of publications including their report and accounts for 1988, the 17th report of the central stipends authority, a series of leaflets describing the work of the Church Commissioners, and a brochure on commended entries for the parsonage design award competition.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the country yearns for a moral lead? Would the Church Commissioners consider using their publication budget to meet that moral need, especially as certain Church leaders are failing to give it?

My hon. Friend will have noted the debate in the House last Monday on the initiative by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sir H. Miller). On the question of a moral lead by the bishops and others, the overriding Christian message is not so much moral exhortation as justification by faith from moral failure. There can never be a surfeit of the propagation of that fundamental message of grace. My hon. Friend's message to the bishops will certainly be noted.

Following the suggestion of the hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall), does the right hon. Gentleman agree that last week's meeting of the ecclesiastical committee and the legislative committee might point to a useful moral lead to be given by the commissioners? We heard that some bishops had sent on training courses in preparation for ordination people who could not be ordained because they had been divorced and were remarried. Would not a moral lead to be to make sure that those people are paid while we come to a conclusion with the legislative committee about whether that piece of legislation was expedient?

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair and pertinent point. A more definitive response to him must await the time which will probably arrive when the clergy ordination Measure is taken on the Floor of the House. Then we shall all have an opportunity to raise such issues at length.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, when he next intends to be present at a meeting of the General Synod of the Church of England.

I intend to be present at the next meeting of the General Synod which is scheduled for July of this year.

While recognising the undoubted right of all members of the General Synod to deeply held views for or against the policies of the present Government, would it be helpful if my right hon. Friend were to point out to the General Synod that its reputation would be enhanced if its members, when in Synod, devoted more time to matters spiritual than to matter political?

I certainly note what my hon. Friend says. He will know that there is a temptation in that lesser assembly to emulate the topics and methods of procedure of the greater assembly of which he and I are members. He will also know that the General Synod is a creature of Parliament and that it is fully in his hands, as a private Member, to introduce a Bill to abolish the General Synod of the Church of England if he so wishes.

When the right hon. Gentleman attends the Synod, or well before then, will he take the opportunity to congratulate the Archbishop of Canterbury on his excellent statement today, which, while expressing concern—which I share—for any offence caused to the followers of the Islam religion, strongly protests against the sentence of death passed by religious leaders in Iran? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that action is totally unacceptable to British people, including Moslems, who disapprove strongly of what has been said?

I take note and respond positively and warmly to what the hon. Gentleman has said, particularly about the Archbishop of Canterbury's statement. There could hardly be a more fundamental demonstration of the difference between the Christian religion and Islam than the response of the Christian deity to those appalling and unthinkable attacks, which is the foundation of forgiveness in the Christian religion.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, how many staff are employed by the commission on computer services.

The Computer Officer, who has responsibility to both Houses for computer developments planned for Parliament as a whole, has a staff of two assistant computer officers, one of whom is on secondment to the House, and one full-time and one part-time secretary. In addition, there are 140 computer terminals throughout the Departments of the House which are available to a wide range of staff users.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider using some of the time of those operators for the installation of a fax machine which could be used collectively by right hon. and hon. Members rather than duplicating many times a facility that could be provided and serviced by one additional member of staff, or even by current members of staff?

That proposal has been considered by the Services Committee. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee gave detailed consideration to the possibility of providing further centralised facilities in addition to those provided by the Post Office in the Central Lobby, for which a charge is levied. But the sub-committee concluded that the practical difficulties outweighted the advantages of a centralised service. As the hon. Gentleman said, several right hon. and hon. Members have purchased their own fax machines, the cost of which is reimbursable from the office costs allowances, and sufficient lines are available for all who wish to do so.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many churches within the commissioners' care were damaged by fire or by vandalism in the past year; what were the comparable figures five, 10 and 15 years ago; and if he will make a statement.

The limited information I have does not extend to most of those churches which are the responsibility of the incumbent and parochial church council, and the commissioners do not have information about fire and vandalism affecting them.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the figures showing that at least one third of our churches and cathedrals have been vandalised by fire or in other ways in the past year? Does he share my worry about that and about the fact that so many churches have to be locked as a result? Will he note that it is rare for a mosque to be locked and that people of the Islamic faith remain in their mosques to ensure that they are not vandalised. Will he encourage members of the Church of England to show the same fervour in their own churches and to keep them open by watching them and looking after them?

Between 1977 and 1982, a total of 56 per cent. of churches suffered theft, and the figures are higher in inner city areas. I take note of what my hon. Friend says: it is a great pity if any parish church has to be locked at a time when members of the public may wish to enter it. A conceivable solution to the problem might be to redraft the guardian angels when they are made redundant from Underground trains and deploy them in parish churches. The Church Commissioners would willingly supply them with wings.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had from industries in Wales about the current economic situation.

I have frequent discussions with industrialists, which confirm an expectation of rising investment.

Although investment may be rising, surely the industrialists also made representations about the rise in interest rates and the cost of borrowing? I have certainly received representations from the farming industry in my constituency, whose members are worried about their income levels. One reason why they have low incomes is the rise in interest rates and the cost of borrowing.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that rising interest rates present problems, particularly for the farming community, which has to borrow heavily. Inflation also brings problems and must be tackled.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will estimate the average number of peers who use Peers' Gallery seats on each day of the week; and if he will make a statement.

It is not possible to provide the information that my hon. Friend requests, as attendance by peers in their Gallery depends largely on the business of the House.

My right hon. Friend and hon. Members on both sides of the House will have noticed that the Peers Gallery is almost invariably empty, even during Prime Minister's Question Time. Will my right hon. Friend and those responsible soften their hearts and open those seats, formally reserved for peers, to members of the public, hundreds of whom are disappointed every day in their attempts to enter the House? Perhaps peers could be invited into the Special Galleries of the House which are also almost invariably empty?

My hon. Friend's specific proposal is a matter for the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee. On sitting days from Monday to Thursday, two rows, each of 12 seats, remain available for peers from 2.30 pm to 5.30 pin. If the 12 seats in the second row are not occupied by peers at 5.30 pm, they can be used by Members' guests. My hon. Friend should also remember that equally generous arrangements are made for Members of the House of Commons in the House of Lords.

To ask the Lord President of the Council how much money has been allocated to introduce healthy and nutritious food programmes covering the Members' and Strangers' Cafeterias.

The Refreshment Department retains the services of a qualified nutritional adviser on an ad hoc basis, whose fees are paid from the trading account. It is the continuing policy of the Department always to maintain and, where possible, to improve the nutritional content of food served in the. House. However, no money has been allocated specifically for this purpose.

I thank the Lord President for that answer. Now that the Commission has turned down the unanimous decision of the Catering Sub-Committee to invite the London food commission to give advice on how healthy and nutritious the food in the Members' arid Strangers' Cafeterias is, what will the Leader of the House do to improve the situation? Does he not realise that many Members on both sides of the House and many staff who work here have to eat morning, noon and night in those cafeterias, and that there is a desperate need to take on the services of people who are qualified and at the forefront of their field in this subject?

I am not sure that the hon. Lady's views are fully shared by all hon. Members or, indeed, by all members of the Sub-Committee. It is not the Commission's policy to disclose the reasons for its decisions, and I can only assume that the Commission prefer the Refreshment Department's current practices, which were designed to promote healthy and nutritious food in the House.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the London food commission is not a body of recognised dietary experts but a Left-wing organisation?

My hon. Friend's analysis is correct. As I understand it, the London food commission is a consumerist pressure group staffed by academics and investigative journalists. It has no expertise in advising on dietary matters. In addition, its future is uncertain, as the original funding from the GLC is known to be running short. As far as I know, the commission has not found any other source of funding so far.

Setting aside the Lord President's snide references to the London food commission, which has done a considerable amount of good work, I ask him whether, instead of being so complacent, he would be prepared to undertake a thoughtful and organised survey of the views of hon. Members and of the other people who have to use the cafeterias in this place—

They are jolly good.

Some Conservative Members may think so, but many people think they are flaming lousy.

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. I did not think my remarks were particularly snide; I thought they were straightforward and factual. If there were a need for a review or anything of that sort the initiative would have to come first from the Catering Sub-Committee.

May I inform my right hon. Friend Friend that I lunch in the cafeteria every day? I have the sense to choose nutritious, healthy food, and I am lasting pretty well.

My hon. Friend makes her point effectively.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to make the Order Paper more user-friendly.

No, Sir. I am not aware of any significant demand for changes in the form of the Order Paper.

Does the Lord President accept that the Order Paper is our daily agenda? If he looks at today's agenda, he will see that it is almost one inch thick. That must represent a tremendous waste of time and paper every day. Will he ensure that parliamentary questions are listed by Department, and consider any other reforms that hon. Members suggest, rather than destroying a vast amount of Amazonian forest each day?

The Order Paper is designed primarily for the use of right hon. and hon. Members, and I am sure that many of us who have become familiar with its style and format would—contrary to the hon. Gentleman's belief—find the changes that he proposes considerably less convenient. The matter has been considered by the Services Committee; the Order Paper is designed to be of greatest use to the House.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to ensure that European documents are considered by the House of Commons before a common position has been arrived at by the Council of Ministers; and if he will make a statement.

In their response to the second special report from the House of Commons Select Committee on European Legislation, Session 1985–86, the Government reaffirmed that they would endeavour to bring forward documents for debate at the earliest appropriate opportunity. That continues to be our objective. In the case of Community legislation subject to the co-operation procedure, it is the Government's aim that parliamentary scrutiny should be completed before a common position is agreed by the Council of Ministers.

As many of the laws that used to be made in the House of Commons are now made by the Council of Ministers, and as we can discuss its decisions for only one and a half hours after 10 o'clock at night, does the Lord President agree that this makes nonsense of democracy and deprives the public of the knowledge of what is going on? Does he also agree that it is an insult to all that Parliament stands for if the House sits from 10 pm to 11.30 pm to discuss matters that have already been decided in Brussels?

I agree that the way in which the House has dealt with European matters in recent months has left something to be desired, and I am taking steps to try to improve it. However, I do not accept my hon. Friend's contention that some of these matters must be discussed after 10 pm, but I am afraid that they will continue to have to be so. My discussions show that it might be possible substantially to improve the way in which our debates are held.

Is the Leader of the House aware that those who are concerned about this matter are grateful to him for referring to the Select Committee's report of two years ago and that we look forward to the Government implementing the intention that they stated at that time? Does he agree that it is becoming a matter of considerable importance that a common position is reached? A common position is, in effect, the last and combined word—perhaps on a majority vote—of the Council of Ministers, prior to possible amendment by the European Parliament at Strasbourg. Although debates may have to take place after 10 pm, the Leader of the House might care to bear in mind that debates at earlier times on major matters would be more appropriate.

I recognise the strength of what the hon. Gentleman says. He knows the pressures that we are under and that I am trying to do my best to improve some of the apparent weaknesses.

Does not the Lord President of the Council agree that all parts of the House are anxious to get this right, including those who are keen on our membership of the European Community? Does he agree that Jacques Delors' famous 80 per cent. utterance was taken out of context, and that he was advocating greater involvement by the national parliaments? I appreciate the difficulties that my right hon. Friend faces and I am not criticising him, but would it not be a good idea to consider a combination of more all-day European Supply days such as the one next Thursday, longer debates—late at night, if necessary—the sending of more business upstairs to Committee whenever a particular document makes that relevant and also, once a month, having a longer Friday afternoon session so that European enthusiasts, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), myself and others can take part?

I agree with my hon. Friend that most of his suggestions will form part of the solution , though I think that the House would he reluctant to depart from the view that it should rise at 2.30 on Fridays. However, his other suggestions are more helpful.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises out of Welsh questions and the Secretary of State for Wales' answer to the question that he was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd). [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is the Secretary of State?"] I see that the bird has flown. He said that there would he no time for a statement on the valleys initiative during Question Time and that he would place a copy of his speech in the Commons Library. Has he asked you for permission to make a statement to the House on the initiative or has he, as he did last week when he refused to make a statement to the House on the Welsh business rate, copped out once again? Is it right that the Secretary of State should hide behind English Tory Members of Parliament, who consistently seem to have their names at the front of the Order Paper when there are Welsh questions, thus denying Welsh Members the right to put their point of view on behalf of their constituents?

I have no knowledge of a statement. Certainly one was not offered today. It may be offered tomorrow, but I do not know.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not totally unacceptable that when only 13 questions were answered on Welsh matters, four of them should have been asked by hon. Members with English constituencies and that most of the questions were answered by a Member representing an English constituency? We have only one chance a month to cover a whole range of problems that are relevant to the people of Wales. When will you be in a position to defend the interests of Welsh Members in this Chamber?

The hon. Gentleman ought to know, and I ought not to have to keep repeating it, that this is a United Kingdom Parliament. He reserves the right to take part in discussions on other matters. The only Member who was present in the Chamber today who sought to catch my eye and was not called—and I deeply regret it —was the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths). However, the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) was called twice, so I do not think that he has any cause for complaint.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. First, I should very much welcome any extension of Welsh Question Time, because that would be such an advantage to the Government side of the House. Secondly, I shall be making a speech tomorrow in Wales in which I shall review in detail the massive progress that has been made under the valleys initiative, and I hope that every hon. Member and everybody in Wales will read it.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was not called at Question Time, nor did I stand to ask a question. However, as a matter of principle it annoys hon. Members to think that Welsh Members should adopt such an attitude, because millions of pounds of English taxpayers' money are directed towards Wales. We have given Wales one of the best Secretaries of State in the Cabinet. It ill behoves Welsh Members to suggest that this is an English Parliament. We are entitled to look at how our money is being spent in Wales.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is a very serious point involved here. You have always said that you think it important that this House should be given information first. You will remember that on the occasion of the first valleys initiative statement we had to raise many points with you in order to persuade the right hon. Gentleman to come here 24 hours after he had made a statement in Wales. During Question Time today —and this involves your position, Mr. Speaker—the Secretary of State said that he could not deal adequately with the question on the Order Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) because there was not enough time in a parliamentary answer. Yet he then stood up and said that he would be making a statement in the valleys tomorrow.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand the feelings of the right hon. Gentleman, who has been deposed from his position as shadow Secretary of State for Wales. The document that I issued this morning on urban aid has always been issued in that form by all Governments. Secondly, the speech that I shall be making tomorrow will give in great detail the marvellous progress made under the valleys initiative.

Not here.

The right hon. Gentleman says "Not here". When he was shadow Secretary of State and I challenged him to have this debate in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, he said, "We soon will." The Labour party has never chosen it as a subject.

rose—

I will allow one more point of order, as the hon. Member was not called during Question Time.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Further to the statement by the Secretary of State for Wales about the speech he is going to make, may I ask whether he can tell us if that speech will be included in the expenses of the Pontypridd by-election?

Order. I do not think we can profitably continue Question Time.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a number of occasions you have said that it is your belief that any initiatives being announced by the Government by way of statement are best announced to the House. If the Secretary of State for Wales is indeed going to say anything new tomorrow, surely he should be saying it here. If his excuse is that he will not be saying anything new, I hope that the newspapers will note that he will just be churning out the same old stuff yet again. If he proposes to say something new, I hope that, as the guardian of the interests of all parts of the House, you, Mr. Speaker, will make representations to try to make sure that he does it in the House rather than just making a speech or holding a press conference, even if it is in Wales.

I shall look carefully at the speech of the Secretary of State.