To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to meet the chairmen of health authorities in Wales.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to meet the chairmen of health authorities in Wales; and what matters he intends to discuss with them.

The date and agenda for the next meeting with district health authority chairmen have not yet been determined.

Does the Minister believe that he should call a meeting urgently with the chairmen of the Welsh health authorities and with Mid Glamorgan in particular, because there is a serious funding crisis in the Health Service? In Mid Glamorgan the emergency ambulance service for days and afternoons has been reduced from 19 to 14 crews. Is he aware that phase 2 of the Princess of Wales hospital, which it was promised would start in the mid-1980s, has now disappeared completely off the 10-year programme? Is he aware that consultants regard that as completely unacceptable and that they are dismayed at what is happening? Will the Minister find desperately needed funds for all health authorities in the country?

The hon. Gentleman and others must face the fact that increased funding in the Health Service must cover increasing demands which may occasionally outstrip the economy and our capacity, or that of any Government, to deliver. Revenue funding of Mid Glamorgan has risen in real terms by 34 per cent. since the Government came to power. Its capital funding will rise by 12 per cent. this year. That is a major rise. We are giving special attention to the proposed new hospital for Taff Ely and Rhondda at Ynys-y-plwm. The hon. Gentleman will also be aware of the spanking new Princess of Wales hospital in Bridgend. We have not overlooked Mid Glamorgan by any margin.

Is the Minister aware of the widespread dismay at yet another hospital closure, this time the cottage hospital in Caernarfon, which will leave the town without any casualty unit? Will he give an assurance that that closure will not go ahead until all the conditions laid down by the Secretary of State have been met and local doctors have agreed to casualty cover? Does he accept the statement by the health authority that the closure is the direct consequence of underfunding by the Welsh Office of health services in Gwynedd?

The hon. Gentleman's concern about that hospital is well known. However, as he knows, his health authority has been one of the best funded in the whole of Wales. He will also be aware that in medical terms the provision of Ysbyty Gwynnedd at Bangor is the most superior that could be provided in the county. We expect the terms and conditions under which Caernarfon cottage hospital will be closed to be observed.

Does the Minister realise that one need only travel to each part of Wales to recognise that the Health Service is suffering from underfunding under his stewardship? Every part of Wales is suffering, and his percentage figures are nonsense. They do not match the increase in Health Service costs. Does he accept that Opposition Members are appalled that he has not fixed a date for a meeting with the chairmen of the health authorities? He has an obligation to tell them how to manage with the completely inadequate funds that he is providing which are resulting in the decay of the fabric of the Health Service throughout Wales.

The hon. Gentleman gets extraordinarily worked up. The health authority chairmen can and do see Ministers when they want to. We are always available to them and, as hon. Members will know, to other people in Wales, be they local authorities or Members of Parliament. We are an extremely open Administration in that respect. The hon. Gentleman will also understand that a Health Service which is treating about 275,000 more people every year in hospital, which has cut the perinatal death rate to below that in England to one of the best in Europe, and which is providing renal dialysis to one of the best standards in Europe—from being the worst when we came to power in 1979—is not a Health Service which is failing the people of Wales.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the progress of the Welsh counties towards implementing the proposals for the local management of schools.

Schemes for the local management of schools have been formally approved for each of the local education authorities in Wales, and they came into force on 1 April.

Does the Minister accept that LMS is causing a complete shambles in schools, especially in relation to their staffing? In my constituency alone, 11 teachers in comprehensive schools are being made redundant and there is underfunding of £120,000, despite the best efforts of the education authority to put that right. That is affecting the quality of children's education. We are not really talking about LMS: we are talking about a hell of a mess.

All that I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that his local education authority—Powys—takes a very different view from the one that he is advancing, since it is proposing to phase in delegation to all secondary and primary schools with more than 100 pupils on their rolls by 1 April 1991; it does not have to do so until 1993. There is a clear commitment to extending delegation in Powys to all schools covered by the scheme in due course.

Although the vast majority of head teachers in my constituency welcome the introduction of LMS, some are seriously concerned about the effect of pupil-led funding on schools' ability to pay experienced staff. Can my hon. Friend reassure them that they will not be forced to dispense with experienced staff to keep costs down?

It is for the local managers of schools to decide on their staffing. I know that this is causing some concern, but the scheme of local management is bound to involve payment of average teacher costs by local education authorities, and sometimes an actual charge can be different.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of South Glamorgan health authority; and what he discussed.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State met the chairman of South Glamorgan district health authority in November 1989, when the financial position of district health authorities was discussed.

I thank the Minister for that reply. When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of South Glamorgan health authority, will he draw to his attention the fact that the proposed cuts in South Glamorgan health services as a result of the alleged £7 million overspend will result in the immediate closure of two hospitals in Barry—the Neale Kent and the Amy Evans—with the displacement of up to 20,000 out-patients, who will then have to travel long distances to get treatment? Will he therefore impress on the chairman that no hospital should be shut until a new neighbourhood hospital is built?

The hon. Gentleman will know that these proposals are out to consultation at the moment which may result in their eventual appearance before my right hon. Friend for decision. So I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman's point.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with his initiative for increasing the numbers of heart operations in Cardiff; and what further steps might he contemplate taking?

Following the report of the Royal College of Physicians on cardiac surgery it was decided that the number of operations should rise to about 1,200. University hospital provided about 630 in the past year. It is busy erecting the paediatric cardiac unit, which will be opened this September. We will then go out to consultation to determine where the remaining 400—over and above the 800 that University hospital, Wales is pledged to carry out—of the 1,200 should go. We await—

Bridgend.

There we are. Hon. Members are already making bids from sedentary positions.

Much as we should like to end the last Welsh Questions of the present Secretary of State with good will, before he finally presses the pilot ejector-seat button, may I draw to his attention and to that of his fellow Ministers the extraordinary situation that has arisen in South Glamorgan health authority, which is reviving the proposal to close the orthopaedic ward at the Prince of Wales hospital by stealth, without making any announcement? It is hiding the proposal away on page 17 of the consultative document on the proposed closure of the Glan Ely geriatric hospital. It will then be moved into the children's ward in Rhydlafar, which is the only specialist orthopaedic ward in Wales. Will the Minister comment on the dubious morality of sneaking in the closure in this way?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman said that it was contained in the proposals that were made public. Therefore, it was hardly being smuggled through. Nevertheless, if it represents a major change in the provision and use of Health Service facilities it is, of course, open to exactly the same form of consultation and objection as any other proposal.

Does the Minister accept that the fact that South Glamorgan health authority has a £7·2 million deficit makes nonsense of the consultations that he described? As the Minister is responsible, he should make some comment about the way in which services are deteriorating. There is great concern at the moment about the loss of school nurses through unilateral decision-making, but it is all due to the underfunding of the health authority. Does he recognise that my anger and the anger of my colleagues and of the people of Wales is well justified because he is neglecting the Health Service not only in South Glamorgan but throughout Wales?

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the capital provision for South Glamorgan is rising this year by 122 per cent? Does he recognise that the new Llandough obstetric unit in South Glamorgan, which cost about £8 million and has just been opened, is the biggest unit to be opened since the University hospital, Wales? I do not think that that is overlooking South Glamorgan.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many houses for rent were built in 1989 in districts in Clwyd, Dyfed, Gwynedd and Powys.

About 675 new homes were provided for rent during 1989 through public resources.

Does the Minister agree that that is an abominably low figure? Does he share the experience of most Welsh Members of young people coming into their surgeries week after week who are unable to find anywhere to rent? Does he agree that that is because of the Government's starved housing policies for Wales?

The housing expenditure of the hon. and learned Gentleman's own council last year was about 74 per cent. higher than its spending in the preceding year. That is somewhat dubious starving. We have increased the provision for Housing for Wales to over £100 million. We increased its provision by 20 per cent. last year and by 19 per cent. the year before. We expect that, with private funding and local authorities joining in with finance, about £140 million will be available for housing provision. That will result in more than 3,000 new houses. That is not starving the housing of Wales.

Rather than trying to delude the House by quoting small percentage increases on low bases, should not the Minister look honestly at the almost total collapse of public provision for housing in Wales over the past decade from its previous high level? He should also look at the resulting social effects in terms of homelessness and the agony suffered by the young people whom the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) described.

We are giving money through the housing associations via Housing for Wales precisely because we see the need for housing in the difficult areas that the hon. Gentleman described where social provision is required. But we believe that most people in Wales, as has been proved, prefer to own their own houses. We are doing our best to make that possible for every citizen. I recommend the latest moves in mid-Wales with flexi-housing. Meanwhile, we have increased home ownership in Wales from about 59 per cent. to over 70 per cent. That is what the people of Wales want, where they can get it.

Does the Minister accept that the sum he has mentioned for Housing for Wales, Tai Cymru, is wholly derisory? It represents an average of only 30 new houses a year for each district in Wales. Does he accept that the Government, and especially the Welsh Office, are extremely anxious to avoid letting local authorities deal with the problems of housing? Does he also accept that the housing crisis in Wales is severe, with 70,000 people on housing waiting lists? Does he accept that, even on his own figures, 7,000 people are homeless?

I certainly accept that there are difficulties in housing. I do not deny that for a moment. The hon. Gentleman is a former councillor of some note and if he really believes in waiting lists, he is misleading his colleagues.

How many empty council houses are there in Wales? Is not a major cause of homelessness in the United Kingdom the huge stock of empty council houses owned by Labour councils?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, although I acquit most Welsh councils of that behaviour. Nevertheless, throughout the United Kingdom as a whole, the number of empty homes would cope with the number of homeless several times over.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which hospital in Wales has the longest waiting period for hernia operations; which has the shortest waiting period for hernia operations; and if he will specify the average number of waiting days for each of them.

Information about numbers of patients on waiting lists for individual operations is not collected centrally.

It is not surprising that the figures for those operations are not collected centrally. If they were, they would deeply embarrass the Government. Will the Minister examine how such figures can be collected? Tremendous improvements would occur in the quality of people's lives if they did not have to wait so long for their hernias, varicose vein and hip replacement operations.

The hon. Gentleman is right. That is why we have established treatment centres. One, in Bridgend, treats hernia and varicose veins, and one in Cardiff, at Rhydlafar—what is it that we are doing there? I cannot remember; it does not matter. Treatment centres are aimed at the problems mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. We are introducing information technology in the Health Service to find out the figures on operations. I agree that it is extraordinary that such figures are not available now, but that is why we are spending a good deal of time, money and effort getting technology in our hospitals.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Welsh Language Board; and what was discussed.

My right hon. Friend last met the chairman of the Welsh Language Board on 4 April. Among other matters, they discussed making arrangements for the board to meet my right hon. Friend's successor as Secretary of State at the earliest opportunity.

Does the Minister recall the assurance that was given by the Secretary of State at the Newport Eisteddfod 18 months ago that there would be legislation for the Welsh language? As the Welsh Language Board published, many months ago, a draft Bill which had overwhelming support from the majority of people in Wales, when will the Government desist from their time-wasting tactics and announce a Welsh Language Bill this year?

The hon. Gentleman is falling into the trap into which many other people in Wales fall, of simply demanding that there should be a Welsh Language Act without being clear about what should go into it. He knows only too well that we are looking constructively at the board's proposals. However, there is not complete agreement, even on the board's proposals. Today's Western Mail reports the Welsh Consumer Council as being critical of it. Others want a more comprehensive Bill, and so on.

Excuses.

It ill becomes the hon. Gentleman to say "excuses" when we have done a great deal for the Welsh language, including passing the Education Reform Act 1988 which is of tremendous importance to the future of the Welsh language. This year, we are spending some £5·9 million on supporting Welsh language organisations. That is a record figure—34 per cent. up on last year.

When will my hon. Friend announce his decision on the applications by schools in south and mid-Pembrokeshire and other parts of Wales for exemption from compulsory Welsh in the national curriculum?

My hon. Friend will know that the consultation period on our proposals for exemption ended on 6 April. We had about 100 responses, half of which were from his constituency. We shall consider the results of that consultation and make our decision in due course.

Will the Minister take this opportunity to praise the Labour authorities of the south Wales valley conmmunities for their enormous support of the Welsh language over the years? Will he also take into account the fact that, in this Thursday's local government elections, in the 15 wards in the Rhondda valley there is not one Conservative candidate? Will the Minister—

Order. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question would be in order if all the authorities spoke Welsh and if it had something to do with the Welsh language.

Does the Minister accept that not one Conservative candidate is standing in the local elections in the Rhondda? Therefore, there is no one to defend the Conservative party's record on the Welsh language and, especially, the Secretary of State's valleys initiative. What advice will he give to the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities, the next Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that the Conservative party's case can be made in the south Wales valleys?

I am ever ready to pay tribute to all local authorities in Wales for their contribution to the promotion of the Welsh language. I take advantage of this opportunity to draw the attention of some of them, including some Labour-controlled authorities, to the public sector guidelines issued by the Welsh Language Board. Not all local authorities in Wales have paid due respect to those guidelines, and I wish sincerely that they would.

Should not we be encouraging unity in the British nation by promoting its common language rather than encouraging the separatist tendencies inherent in minority languages?

I assure my hon. Friend that all of us who are Welsh speakers are as loyal to the Crown and to the institutions of this country as is anyone else. We are all English speakers, too, and we take every opportunity to promote the English language as well as the Welsh language. I remind my hon. Friend that Welsh was probably spoken in Britain at an earlier stage than English.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any plans to meet, in the near future, the chairman of British Coal to discuss the future of the coal industry in Wales.

I met the chairman of British Coal on 23 April.

Before the Secretary of State, or perhaps his successor, next meets the chairman, will the Welsh Office study the effect on the coal industry of the use of natural gas for electricity generation? If the present rush towards natural gas continues, it will mean the end of what is left of the coal industry. That will lead to the disruption of huge parts of the power station generation industry and the creation of a near-monopoly for British Gas. Are the Government concerned about this, or are we witnessing another lamentable exercise in British short-termism?

All Governments examine the best and most cost-effective fuels to use, and there is considerable pressure from all parties, including the Labour party, to examine the environmental impact of various fuels. I accept the right hon. Gentleman's view that any Government of any description must consider carefully a range of factors, including cost-effectiveness and the effect on communities, jobs and the environment. I think that that should be done.

May I urge the Secretary of State to meet the chairman of British Coal urgently? Will he raise with him the proposed closure of Blaenant colliery in my constituency? If it is closed, hundreds of jobs will be destroyed and millions of tonnes of best anthracite coal will be left under the ground. Those are two assets of prime importance to Britain.

I am sure that the chairman and the regional managers will examine carefully any closure proposal. There is, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a proper procedure. He knows, too, that pit closures have confronted all Governments. Since 1965, there have been 96 closures, 61 under Labour Governments and 35 under Conservative Governments.

Will my right hon. Friend find out from the chairman of British Coal the current position regarding the opencast executive's proposed 10-year programme for the county of Clwyd? Will he also make him aware of the widespread local concern that that programme has been discussed confidentially with Clwyd county council but has not yet been made public, even though British Coal said that it would be 10 months ago?

I can certainly convey my hon. Friend's views about the programme not being made public. Discussion may well have taken place with the local authority—which has, of course, powers over planning.

Is the Secretary of State aware that Cynon Valley still has the highest male unemployment rate in Wales, which is exactly the same position as when he took over as Secretary of State? Does he accept that he has presided over pit closures in the constituency that have led to the present problem? Is he aware that the intended closure of the furnacite plant and the loss of many more jobs in the constituency will add to the problem? Will he tell us, without bluster, precisely what he intends to do to bring jobs, as a matter of urgency, into Cynon Valley?

The hon. Lady, in the careful wording of her question, failed to mention the large reduction in unemployment in Cynon Valley during the three years that I have been Secretary of State. Although Cynon Valley might still have the worst male unemployment rate, it is now at a far lower level despite the pit closures that have taken place under all Governments. I am grateful for the nice comments that have been made to me and expressed in letters from people in the hon. Lady's constituency about the new industries, new firms, derelict land clearance and high investment that have been introduced during the past three years.

Will the right hon. Gentleman heed carefully the words of the Blacnant miners' leader, Mr. Bowen, who said that west Glamorgan could ill afford the loss of hundreds of well-paid, highly skilled manufacturing jobs? Is he aware that British Coal's target appears to be designed to make it impossible for pits to pay their way? Will he think hard about the fact that in the glossy valleys programme no reference is made to the loss of six pits and 3,500 jobs? We now wonder what the future of the south Wales coalfield will be should Blaenant close.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman must rejoice in the fact that although I have had to sustain a series of coal pit closures in the valleys since the valleys initiative, unemployment in Wales has gone down faster than in the remainder of the United Kingdom and in the valleys it has gone down even faster than in the remainder of Wales. There is no doubt that, desite the pit closures, there has been a fast-improving position in the valleys. I am also pleased to say that there is now a procedure through which any intended pit closure must go, which is much better than the procedure in operation when 61 pits were closed under Labour Governments.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the National Rivers Authority in Wales; and what matters were discussed.

My right hon. Friend has not yet had an opportunity to meet the chairman of the NRA's Welsh region.

Given the widespread concern in Wales about the filthy state of the river banks, and given the Government's declared interest in cleaning up the environment, will the Secretary of State show his confidence in the work of the NRA by taking a running jump into the River Taff, which flows through my constituency?

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is complaining about water quality or litter, both of which he has complained about from time to time. On litter, various proposals have been made to try to arrive at a just solution on exactly who will pick it up. On the quality of the water, the report in 1984 gave Wales a clean bill of health—other than one small tributary of the Rhymney, all rivers in Wales came in classes 1 or 2. The latest examination by the NRA, which will be completed this year with the results being available next year, will provide a more up-to-date position.

Has my hon. Friend or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State discussed with the chairman of the NRA the possibility of that authority assuming sole responsibility for sea defences? Is my hon. Friend aware that added to the anxieties of my Towyn constituents—who have been so disastrously invaded by the sea—is the concern that responsibility for sea defences is divided between four authorities? That is not reassuring.

I acknowledge my hon. Friend's remarks, which we shall consider in the light of the recent flooding disaster in north Wales.

When the Minister next meets the chairman of the National Rivers Authority, will they pay special attention to a problem that has arisen in Rhymney, where the south of England company Euromet has dumped thousands of drums of toxic waste close to the banks of the River Rhymney, near a school and major road? Will the Minister convey to the NRA's chairman that the whole of Rhymney deeply objects to such dumping?

I imagine that the local council and planning authority have some powers in the circumstance that the hon. Gentleman describes. If any toxic waste entered the water, the NRA could prosecute if it felt that that was the right action to take.

The Minister should be able to tell the National Rivers Authority who is responsible for the sea wall that was breached, be it British Rail or the local authorities. He should study carefully the grave psychological damage as well as the financial damage and destruction of property that followed the flooding in Clwyd. If the Welsh Office can find £70,000 for new typists' chairs, surely the Government can find £70,000 for each of the three borough authorities concerned and for Clwyd county council, to cope with the consequences of the flooding. Ministers should show more understanding and compassion, and should take urgent action to help the 1,000 very worried people who are still homeless in north Wales.

The hon. Gentleman overlooks the extraordinary settlement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State managed to arrange, whereby the Bellwin rules apply to 85 per cent. of eligible expenditure. Colwyn, for example, is likely to receive more than £1 million as a consequence of that arrangement. Other finance will be available, and we shall certainly consider all the conditions that arise and the bills that are eventually entered. But the hon. Gentleman must face the fact that ordinary citizens also have their responsibilities, and therefore this is not as clear-cut a bleeding heart case as the hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends sometimes make out.

My neighbour, the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) referred to the need for measures to prevent such a disaster recurring. Will the Welsh Office arrange for a full survey of sea defences and bring together all the authorities concerned—including the NRA and British Rail, which has major indirect responsibilities for sea defence strategy—to ensure that such a disaster is never repeated?

I do not believe that such action is necessary in respect of most of the Welsh coast, because the parts of the coastline that are most exposed and at risk are already known. The hon. Gentleman may be unaware that the local authorities in the flooded areas had already received various forms of finance through the Welsh Office. Prestatyn, for example, was well defended because it had built up its sea wall using urban money from the present Administration. Nevertheless, I am sure that the local authorities concerned will contact the Welsh Office if they have not already done so, and we shall undertake any investigation that is necessary.

My hon. Friend the Minister said that he has not yet met the chairman of the National Rivers Authority. When the flooding occurred, many right hon. and hon. Members called for discussions with that body on establishing a system of national co-ordination, to avoid any similar disasters in future. The effectiveness of the construction of adequate sea defences at one point along the Welsh coast may be totally negated if proper defences do not exist elsewhere. Perhaps there is a need for co-ordination of the sort suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer).

We are moving away from the matters that are relevant to the NRA. Nevertheless, the flooding in north Wales was a major disaster and one in which, unusually, British Rail was involved—in the sense that it is not an organisation that springs to mind in such a context. I am told that not only has the breach in the sea defences been made good but the sea defences are better than before. Britain's sea defences and the effect that global warming may have are taken extremely seriously by the Government.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the present state of the National Health Service in Wales.

My right hon. Friend receives representations on a wide range of issues concerning the National Health Service.

Is the Minister aware that the majority of people in Wales are worried about the way in which the Government have looked after the interests of the National Health Service there over the past two or three years? Can he explain why?

Because a lot of irresponsible people are going round stirring up people and scaring them. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is pleased that his health authority has now opened the latest hospital, at Llanelli and that he will bear witness to that. I hope that he will recognise that this year his health authority has a capital allocation that is 63 per cent. up on last year. I hope that he will agree that there has been a large increase in nurses' pay, a 25 per cent. increase in the number of consultants and a whole range of other things, including the lowering of the perinatal death rate, and increased life expectancy. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would go round pointing out the truth of those facts rather than the shibboleths and nonsense that so often emanate from Opposition Benches.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the development of roads in south Clwyd.

I have received a number of representations about improvements to the A494, A5 and A483 trunk road routes in south Clwyd.

I thank the Minister for his reply. Can he tell me why there has been a delay in the Newbridge bypass on the A483? Is it due to the fact that the bridge over the River Dee was some 4 inches out and did not meet?

The Newbridge bypass is expected to open to traffic early in June.

To ask the Minister for the Arts what information he has on the level of expenditure on public library services proposed for 1990–91.

This information is not held centrally. The level of proposed expenditure on public library services is a matter for individual local authorities.

Is the Minister aware of the increasing demand placed on the library service in areas such as north Staffordshire, where there are more and more elderly people and more elderly persons' homes opening? Is he further aware that the talking book service in north Staffordshire is severely ovestretched? When will he make a special allocation for the talking book service to help the blind and the partially sighted?

I have no doubt of the importance of the talking book service and the range of services that are provided for those who are disabled in one way or another. Broadly speaking, my duty under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 is to ensure a comprehensive and efficient service. All the evidence over the past few years shows that we have such a service in our public library system.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the important role that mobile libraries play in large rural areas such as Shropshire, which is a quarter of the land mass of the west midlands? Does he agree that the development and maintenance of such services is more important than diversification into the triendier areas of library provision such as compact discs for expensive compact disc players?

I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of mobile libraries. That is a decision for each local authority to make according to the needs of the area. Clearly it is important for the library service to provide a good service for those who want to use it and to make it as accessible as possible. I am glad that the number of service points has gone up in the past 10 years by 6,000, which helps to serve a wider range of people.

To ask the Minister for the Arts what steps he is taking to explain to the arts world, both consumers and producers, the measures announced in the Budget statement.

To ask the Minister for the Arts how he intends to encourage further donations by businesses to arts bodies; and if he will make a statement.

To ask the Minister for the Arts what contribution he expects will be received by arts and heritage bodies because of gift aid introduced in the recent Budget.

The introduction by the Chancellor of the gift aid incentive to charitable giving provides an unprecedented opportunity for the arts to raise even more resources from individuals and commerce. The Arts Council and the Museums and Galleries Commission intend to publicise the new arrangements.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the good news about gift aid and the excellent news following his decision about the Wilding report have been widely welcomed in my constituency and in Nottinghamshire by consumers and producers? We are justly proud of the depth and quality of the arts and of artists in the region.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am aware of the wide range of arts facilities in the Nottingham area. Like so many other arts bodies, they stand to gain from the Chancellor's decision that on 1 October next the gift aid scheme will be introduced. That will be in addition to the wide range of tax incentives that are available to encourage giving, by both individuals and corporations. It will provide a unique opportunity to inspire private arts patronage at a much higher level.

will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the greater capacity and willingness of people to give to charities? Should not he, however, warn the arts world that if it is to take full advantage of that, it must fight its own corner and ensure that a large proportion of its money comes from as many sources as possible?

My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. There will be enormous competition within the charitable world to receive more money from individuals and corporations. It is very much in the arts world's court to ensure that it approaches the problem professionally in order to persuade the largest possible number of individuals and corporations to give money. As we look to the 1990s, we want to encourage more giving to the arts.

Does my right hon. Friend intend to advise arts groups to concentrate on raising funds through gift aid or the payroll giving scheme rather than to seek sponsorship? That is a major concern in Leicestershire.

There is a wide range of means by which it is possible to give to arts organisations. I am in favour of a wide range of means, whether it be tax incentives to sponsors, or covenants, or the help that gift aid will contribute to one-off giving. A wide range of mechanisms can be used. The payroll scheme and the gift aid scheme complement each other. The gift aid scheme starts at £600 and above, whereas the payroll scheme is for all those who make contributions below that level.

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's efforts to provide more money to the arts generally, and by the means outlined in the Budget, but does he recognise that unless more is done to restrict the sale overseas of some of our important works of art, what he hopes for will not be fully achieved?

The disparity between the rapid increase in prices of works of art and the resources that at any time and by any Government can be made available, through the taxpayer, to save works of art creates a real dilemma. However, the rules that have operated since the 1950s—the Waverley rules—under successive Governments, have worked extremely well. A wide range of measures and mechanisms is available to save works of art, including the national heritage memorial fund and the acceptance in lieu of tax scheme.

The deficits of the four national performing companies are of an order of magnitude that cannot possibly be bridged by the budgetary measures that were referred to earlier. What steps does the Minister intend to take to deal with the Royal Opera House's deficit, which is projected to be £5 million?

The deficits vary according to the organisation concerned. I have made it plain, both in the Chamber and outside, that it is up to each arts organisation that is supported by the taxpayer to ensure that it cuts its coat according to the cloth available, that it works within the resources available to it and that any other course—particularly a course that deliberately creates a deficit in order to demand from the taxpayer, through the Arts Council, that it should be baled out—is unacceptable. It would be at the expense of the very many arts organisations that are acting responsibly. To act responsibly is the way forward. I praise the arts world for the fact that increasingly it is raising more resources from the private sector.

Many Opposition Members welcome the measures that have been taken to encourage charitable donations to the arts, but does the Minister recognise that there are fears among Opposition Members that insufficient measures have been taken to encourage the imagination and creativity among young people that in any modern state is necessary? Unless we can do that, we shall not encourage either the arts or the sciences.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman tries to observe what is happening in the arts around the country, where he will see a remarkable story. We have a growing number of centres of excellence, ranging from Glasgow to Birmingham, and Edinburgh to Bristol, let alone London, which is a great European capital city. The arts are expanding in this country. The importance of this question is that it allows me to tell the House that we are giving any number of private individuals the facility to choose to give to the arts organisations that they think are the best.

Will my right hon. Friend explain to the arts world—to both consumers and producers—the fact that they have all benefited from the substantial growth Rn incomes over the past 11 years and that the greatest service that any Government can do for the arts is to bring about full employment and a thriving economy?

My hon. Friend's last point is absolutely right. Indeed, the arts world itself contributes to the health and wealth of this nation. To the extent that our economy is strong, the arts stand to gain. That is why our priority must be to bring down inflation because the arts also stand to benefit and can then take full advantage of the new gift aid proposals.

The Minister's replies make it clear that he does not yet understand the scale of the financial crisis that is facing our four national companies in general and the Royal Opera House in particular. Despite the success of the Royal Opera House in playing to 92 per cent. capacity and in raising £6 million per year in sponsorship, the Government have cut its grant over the past four years. As a result, this year the Royal Opera House is facing a deficit of £5 million and the national companies as a whole face deficits of £10 million. Will the Minister summon up the courage to do something about the deficits, or is it his policy to see theatres such as those of the Royal Shakespeare Company close or slide deeper into deficit?

The hon. Gentleman is suffering from a slight tendency of his from time to time—but not on every occasion—to hyperbole. However, I realise that it is local elections week and that the hon. Gentleman feels that he has to say something. He knows perfectly well that during the next three years there will be a 24 per cent. overall increase in taxpayers' support for the arts. Bearing in mind the overspending Labour authorities, is the hon. Gentleman really saying that if a Labour Government were ever in office, they would dramatically increase the amount of available expenditure? I ask him that question because, like Labour authorities, Labour Governments are notorious for over-expenditure.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will make a statement regarding the implementation of the equal opportunities programme in the civil service.

Good progress across the board continues to be made on increasing equality of opportunity in the civil service. In May, I shall introduce a new programme for action in this area for people of ethnic minority origin.

First, may I welcome the Minister's personal approach to this problem and his recognition that there has been vast discrimination in the past, which has resulted in no people from ethnic minorities and very few women being in the top levels of the civil service? Secondly, when does he expect that his action programme will have any real effect?

As I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman agrees, the most important principle in the civil service is to ensure that there is equality of opportunity for people of all backgrounds. It is for that reason that over the past five years we have devised a programme of action that will facilitate just that opportunity and encourage the promotion of women within the service. That is why I plan to do just the same towards the end of May when I announce my programme of action for people from ethnic minorities. In addition, we are currently reviewing our code of conduct for the disabled, which will ensure that there is true equality of opportunity. However, people must be promoted and introduced to the service on the basis of merit.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service how he intends to encourage people, particularly those who are university graduates, from the ethnic minorities, women with young children and the disabled, to consider the civil service as a career.

The civil service is developing a wide range of personnel policies to encourage recruitment from among all members of the community. These, together with a firm message about equal opportunities, are very much part of Civil Service Commission and departmental publicity about career opportunities.

I welcome the Minister's statement that there will be a broadening of opportunities for minorities in recruitment to the civil service. Will he confirm that that will not affect the quality of the civil service, and that high-quality recruits will still be required? Will he also confirm that promotion and salary increases will be dependent on a high quality of public service in the future?

Of course I can reassure my hon. Friend that the first priority is to ensure that we have a civil service of the highest quality. Looking to the demographic changes of the 1990s, we must ensure that the fullest possible range of opportunities is available for people of all backgrounds, as that is in the interests of our service. I shall ensure there are adequate programmes to facilitate that, and to enable us to recruit women, people from ethnic minorities and disabled people who have the high qualities that we are looking for.

The Minister will accept that this work has been continuing for some time, and that the efforts of the civil service unions are to be commended. Will he tell us, however, when he expects women to be represented equally with men in the ranks of the permanent secretaries?

The policy is not to go for equal representation for any part of the community, but to ensure that there is equality of opportunity for all people, whether or not they are women and whatever their background. We must concentrate our efforts on that. I accept that it is unsatisfactory that among the top grades only 6 per cent. are women. We must ensure that the promotional avenues are fully open to women; their numbers are increasing, but appointments must be made on the basis of merit.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service whether he has received any representations from the civil service unions about Sir Robin Butler's appearance before the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service.

I have received no such representations.

Do we distort or misunderstand Sir Robin Butler's words by suggesting that he took the view that a civil servant's duty and loyalty is now to the Government? Is not that a new doctrine? Some of us had imagined that a civil servant's duty and loyalty was to the Crown. Has there been a change in the constitution?

There has been no change. We are pursuing policies that successive Governments—both Labour and Conservative—have accepted over the years. Plainly, civil servants owe their duty—as the hon. Gentleman says—to the Crown, but, to all intents and purposes, in those respects the Crown means the elected Government of the day. I am sure that, when the hon. Gentleman's party was in office, Ministers took the same view. The policy remains the same, and will stay the same.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met representatives of the trade unions; and what subjects were discussed.

I meet the civil service unions from time to time to discuss a range of matters.

Has there been any discussion on the low pay of support groups 1 and 2, which have been adversely affected by the abolition of the fair wages resolution, by the weakening of wage councils and by the poll tax? Should not there be a decent minimum wage for security guards, messengers and others within that grade?

There are procedures to deal with overall wage levels for various categories of the civil service. Of course, under the new policies we take into account the special needs of special categories. There is now a facility for flexible pay arrangements. It is being devised for much of the civil service, including the establishment of the new agencies.

When the Minister next meets the civil service unions, will he discuss with them direct entry to the higher executive officer grade? The Minister will remember that he and the Treasury got that completely wrong. Instead of trawling within the civil service, they spent a great deal of money on advertising, but 91 per cent. of the 184 entrants to Customs and Excise turned out to be civil servants already. The Minister should not waste public money. Will he take union advice next time?

I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman is not anticipating the next question; he may have intervened on the wrong question.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service how many direct entrants at HEO level have been accepted into the civil service under the recent recruitment scheme; and what was the target.

The target of filling some 740 posts through the higher executive officer open competition has been met. Of those appointed, 175 are direct entrants to the civil service at this level.

Will the Minister answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek)—on 91 per cent. of posts in Customs and Excise being filled by serving civil servants? Does not that suggest that talent is available in the civil service, as the trade unions made clear to the Minister, and that his scheme is misconceived and a waste of public money? Will he recognise the talent under his nose within the civil service?

I fully recognise the talent of civil servants and the opportunities for promotion for talented civil servants. That was proved by this competition, in which the majority of people promoted were from within the civil service. It is not a waste of public money because it is exceedingly important for the service to recruit the best possible people to serve the Government and the nation. We shall achieve that by ensuring that, where possible, there is open competition and that the best possible people are recruited from outside as well as from inside the service.

Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to ensure that people from the regions, especially Yorkshire, are recruited directly to the civil service, at whatever age, so that their experience of other jobs and professions can contribute to it?

I agree with my hon. Friend that that is to be encouraged but that is no reflection on the quality of people already serving in the service. We need the best possible range of people. It is healthy for the service to have the experience of those who have been in it for a long time and of those who have served in other walks of life. That adds strength to the civil service.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker

Order. We have not finished yet.

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in developing civil service agencies in the last five weeks.

Excellent progress has been made. Eighteen new executive agencies have been set up this month, bringing the total to 30, employing some 66,000 staff. More agencies will be established in the next few months, and I would expect to see next steps applied to at least half the civil service by the end of 1991.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the promotion of those agencies is extremely important, to ensure that a better service is delivered to the public and that employees derive more job satisfaction?

My hon. Friend is right. The main objectives include ensuring not only better value for money for the taxpayer in managing the civil service but that the quality of the service provided by the various agencies is the highest to benefit the public. Evidence from the establishment of the first agencies shows that that is beginning to happen.

rose—

Order. I shall take points of order in their proper place—after the statement.