To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what menopausal facilities, other than clinics, are available for women in Wales in national health service hospitals.

Clinics in a range of medical specialties are the main form of provision, but detail on the services provided for menopausal women, either in clinics or otherwise, is not available centrally.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. I am sure that he will be pleased to learn that East Glamorgan hospital, in co-operation with the Amarant trust, of which I have the honour to be chairman, is about to open the first dedicated menopause clinic in Wales. It will be entirely free for the women in that area. The funds to pay the salaries of the doctor and nurse at that clinic have been raised entirely from the private sector, while the health service is providing the space and back-up facilities. Because of the great demand for the service by women in Wales, will my hon. Friend consider sponsoring training fellowships, so that the well-known Welsh gynaecologist, Dr. Peter Bowen-Simpkins, can undertake the training of more doctors who would like these facilities to be available?

I congratulate my hon. Friend on her announcement and thank her for the interest that she has been able to arouse in the subject and for her chairmanship of the trust. Training goes a little wider than the matters on which I can comment, but obviously we would consider any proposal such as that suggested by my hon. Friend.

The plea by the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) for better menopausal facilities in Wales may be laudable, but does the Minister agree that our health authorities are faced with a funding crisis and that there is pressure on them to close wards and whole hospitals? That has caused great anxiety in our local communities. Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that we are still waiting for an up-to-date list of hospital closures to be placed in the Library?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that health authorities in Wales are receiving record funding. They have never received so much, nor have they ever been able to treat so many patients. As the hon. Gentleman knows, if his health authority has any proposals on closures, it must present them in the ordinary way when they will be a matter of public record.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to publish his Department's report on the salmonella outbreak in Flint; and if he will make a statement.

The Department's report will be published as soon as possible.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the widespread concern over the delay in the publication of the report, which the Welsh Office originally promised would be in April? Will my hon. Friend be more specific about the publishing date? Will he scotch rumours that the report does not face up to the central issue of the outbreak—the need for one person to be put in overall charge, preferably the medically qualified director of public health medicine?

We shall have to wait for the report's final version before answering the latter part of my hon. Friend's question. The time taken to publish the report was caused largely by the fact that we had to send it in draft form to Delyn borough council and Clwyd health authority, and the borough council in particular replied at considerable length. In addition, we sent out an associated draft guidance circular on public food poisoning, and we are trying to sort out the responses to it. We shall have to wait until we have managed to do those things before publication can take place. I promise my hon. Friend that we shall do it as quickly as possible.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan. The question relates to Flint.

It is about salmonella.

The hon. Member had better read the question.

I am asking a question about the importance of discovering the causes and effects of salmonella. As a further sign of how important it is, I should like to point out that an outbreak at Ely hospital, a large hospital in my constituency, has resulted in 62 cases of salmonella or suspected salmonella poisoning. I press the Minister on the urgent need for him to find out the exact causes and effects of salmonella. In the meantime, may I say to him how strongly—

Order. I have let the hon. Gentleman get away with that, but the question was about a report on the salmonella outbreak in Flint.

I have already asked for a report on that matter. I gather that 40 patients are affected, although the hon. Gentleman mentioned 60, but obviously that can be sorted out. It is a matter for South Glamorgan health authority, but clearly it is of public interest, and I shall find out precisely what has happened.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of Welsh Water plc to discuss water quality.

I met Mr. John Elfed Jones, in his capacity as chairman of the Welsh Language Board on 9 July. I look forward to meeting him and his colleagues in Welsh Water plc on 6 September.

When that meeting takes place, will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to discuss his welcome and long-overdue assurance that we shall have statutory water quality objectives for all rivers and estuaries in Wales? Will he go further and discuss with the chairman of Welsh Water how that will be paid for? Will he give an assurance that the contribution invested by the Government will continue at the same level as in the period just before privatisation?

I understand that Welsh Water made clear exactly what its preferred method of charging was early in 1989. It was clearly laid down then and was set out in the prospectus. The hon. Member will know that Dwr Cymru has laid down an investment programme of £1.75 billion over the next 10 years. That is a record level of investment, and it will be maintained. The hon. Gentleman should remember that the last time his party was in office there was a 50 per cent. cut in investment.

When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the chairman of Welsh Water plc, will he point out that the company is perhaps even more leaky than the Cabinet discussing German matters? One third of the water supply goes down the drain which is a cause of concern for water quality, and which badly affects Welsh Water's profits. Will he ensure that consumers will not have to pay for essential repairs but that money will come from the company's profits?

The hon. Gentleman raises an important subject which I know exercises the mind of the chairman of Dwr Cymru and his colleagues. The amount of leakage is serious and too high. I know that it will be one of the subjects that I shall discuss with Welsh Water when I meet the chairman on 6 September. It is certainly a problem which needs to be solved.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best guarantees of improvement in water quality are the National Rivers Authority and increased investment, neither of which would have taken place without the privatisation of the industry?

I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned that. I wish sometimes that we could have a more even-handed approach from the Opposition, and that they would pay tribute to the important reforms that we have introduced.

When will all untreated sewage be prohibited from entering Welsh coastal bathing waters?

As soon as possible, all significant discharges of sewage to coastal and estuarial waters will be treated.

Is not the Secretary of State aware of the tremendous variations in the quality of drinking water in Wales? In such circumstances, it is ridiculous for a uniform charge to be made on the pretext of the same price for the same service, when it is clearly not the same service. There will be a massive revolt against even pricing. Is not it time to nip this in the bud and stop it growing into an enormous problem?

Welsh Water made clear its preference early in 1989. We are talking about a range of services to be supplied and the method of charging. The hon. Gentleman has overexaggerated the problems that it will cause because many people in Wales had been expecting such an announcement. It is for the director general, Mr. Byatt, to consider charging from the point of view of the consumer.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on levels of unemployment in Clwyd and north Wales generally.

Unemployment in both Clwyd and north Wales has fallen substantially. In May 1990 the unemployment rate in north Wales stood at 5.7 per cent., whereas four years ago it was 15.2 per cent. The rate in Clwyd is 4.9 per cent. whereas it was 14.7 per cent. four years ago.

I thank the Secretary of State for those figures. Leaving aside the fact that they have been fiddled something like 29 times since 1981—each time downwards, apart from once—does the Secretary of State acknowledge that if 1,200 jobs are lost at Brymbo, they will increase the figure for male unemployment by 17 per cent. in Clwyd alone? If the right hon. Gentleman is to have any credibility as Secretary of State for Wales, he must do something about Brymbo, and do it soon.

The hon. Gentleman knows about the range of activities in relation to Brymbo. The Welsh Development Agency is, with my full support, exploring a number of options to secure the future of that important community. I wish that the Opposition would start to pay tribute to the achievements of the people of Wales in having created a success story which has meant such dramatic falls in unemployment.

Does my right hon. Friend share my astonishment that the Labour party should choose to raise that issue at this juncture? Is not it a fact that employment in Clwyd is one of the Government's most glittering success stories, and is not that due to the policies that have been pursued by three successive Secretaries of State for Wales in making the maximum use of the instruments available to them? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is an achievement of which we should all be proud?

I quite agree. Lord Crickhowell and my immediate predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), laid a tremendous foundation for the future prosperity of Wales. I sometimes wish that Opposition Members would join their colleagues in local government—

Not all of us.

I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I sometimes wish that Labour Members would join their many colleagues in local government in working in a positive partnership—as some do—to secure the future of the people of Wales and to improve their conditions even further.

With the long recess imminent, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he believes that the excellent Brymbo work force has a steelmaking future? They have fought so spiritedly and so hard for more than two months and need a word of encouragement about steelmaking from the right hon. Gentleman. We do not want him to be impotent in this instance. The right hon. Gentleman's former colleague in Cabinet, the former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, did Wales a disservice in his infamous interview with The Spectator. The right hon. Gentleman may know that there are 43 West German companies in Wales and 900 in Britain, and that one sixth of West Germany's manufacturing companies here are located in Wales. Was not the right hon. Gentleman glad to see his former Cabinet colleague go, having done such damage to Britain's interest?

To answer the only question that falls within the limits of the tabled question, I advise the hon. Gentleman that I have had the opportunity of meeting representatives of the work force at Brymbo and have been able to assure them that I am aware of the tremendous progress that they have made, individually and collectively, in terms not only of the quality of their work, but of productivity. However, it is right not to raise hopes to a false expectation. Suffice it to say that every possible effort is being made to find a solution that secures the future of that community.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the average pay in Wales.

The average gross weekly pay of full-time employees on adult rates in Wales in April 1989, which is the latest date for which figures are available, was £215.90 compared with £87.20 in April 1979.

Although we are happy to pay generous tributes to local authorities, the Welsh Office and everyone else who has encouraged the good news on employment in Wales in the past few years, we must not be blinded by the glitter referred to by the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). Is the Secretary of State aware that what has really happened and what masks the reality is that a plague of unemployment has spread over Wales during the past decade? We have slipped to the disgraceful position in the new earnings survey to which the Secretary of State referred of having the lowest average pay of any region in Britain. Will the Secretary of State acknowledge, as his predecessor did not, that low pay does great damage? To be paid a low wage is an insult. It is demeaning and it produces a demoralised work force. When will the Secretary of State return us to the level in Wales of a decade ago? The poverty of unemployment has been replaced by the poverty of those in low-paid jobs.

The hon. Gentleman did not listen to my reply. The figures that I gave show a 17.6 per cent. real-terms increase in rates of pay since 1979. I recognise that we have problems in Wales, caused by low pay in certain instances and by a low gross domestic product per head, and that we have pockets of poverty. My predecessors and I set a target of raising the quality of life throughout Wales and of spreading prosperity. That is a commitment to which I am securely wedded.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received about Welsh language teaching.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received concerning the use of the Welsh language in primary schools in Dyfed.

We have received 27 representations about the use of the Welsh language in primary schools in Dyfed since June 1989.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to encourage Welsh language and culture is through a sensible, balanced and moderate policy which does not involve compelling parents to accept it? Does he also agree that the best way of ensuring freedom of choice for my constituents would be to allow generous exemptions from compulsory Welsh in secondary schools and to look again at the categorisation policy in some primary schools in Dyfed which means that some children are immersed in Welsh at the age of five without the opportunity of learning their mother tongue of English?

The word "compulsion" is anathema to me, as it is to my hon. Friend. He must recognise that in schooling there is an element of compulsion to learn school subjects. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has consulted on exemptions from Welsh in the national curriculum. He is considering the results of that consultation and we shall make an announcement in due course. Categorisation of schools in Dyfed is primarily a matter for the local education authority.

Does the Minister agree that every child has a right to an education in its mother tongue as far as reasonably possible? Does he realise that in Dyfed since last September, when, without consulting parents, the local authority made all schools in rural areas Welsh speaking, thousands of English-speaking infants have been deprived of the right to an education in their mother tongue?

It is important to understand what happened in Dyfed. Under the Education (No. 2) Act 1986—not the Education Reform Act 1988—the local education authority is required to state its policy on secular education. I understand that consultations have been held with the governors of about 333 primary schools and that only two changes were proposed. There will be consultation with parents during the summer and in the early autumn.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the row in Dyfed has more to do with county policy than with the Education (No. 2) Act or the national curriculum?

Yes, it is precisely as my hon. Friend says. The dispute arises from the county's policy, which is geared to the 1986 Act. It is an independent authority, but I understand that 27 of its members belong to the party of the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams).

Does the Minister agree that it was a great shame that the hon. Members. for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) and for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) interfered with the teaching of Welsh in one of my schools in north Pembrokeshire? The parents of 50 out of 56 children at that school are in favour of the present policy. Will the Minister advise those two hon. Gentlemen to behave themselves and to act like statesmen?

I understand that the parents concerned in one school are the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett). Surely the House is not averse to right hon. and hon. Members stating their views or those of their constituents. We are here to try to resolve any difficulties that may arise.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his answers about the Welsh language will cause dismay and confusion in Wolverhampton? A separate language is a clear sign of distinct racial characteristics, and my hon. Friend's answers, allied with the revelation that members of the Cabinet have been considering the distinct racial characteristics of the German race, flies in the face of all that the people of Wolverhampton have been taught for 25 years by successive Governments and by the race relations industry—that there are no such things as racial characteristics.

Listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), I wished that his predecessor as Member of Parliament for that constituency were here, because he was a distinguished Welsh scholar. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that linguistic differences are the same as racial differences. After all, I can proudly boast that I speak Welsh and German, and I have a smattering of English.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he has made to finance the family practitioner services budgets in Wales.

More than 90 per cent. of the provision for family practitioner services is not subject to cash limiting. Cash limits for family practitioner committee administration budgets have already been issued and provisional allocations have been made in respect of a proportion of GP practice staff costs and cost-rent schemes. I hope to finalise allocations in the next few weeks, after information received from family practitioner committees has been evaluated.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that there is great anxiety among medical practitioners in Wales over the uncertainty that the Minister outlined again this afternoon about the provision being made by the Welsh Office? Will the hon. Gentleman get the Welsh Office to move more quickly, so that doctors can be doctors, not book-keepers?

Doctors in the hon. Gentleman's constituency may have encountered some problems in receiving initial allocations from their family practitioner committee, which I believe adopted a slightly different policy from some others. The inherited commitments were not available to FPCs until well into the current financial year, and they had to be dealt with first, although there is an allowance for an increased payment above the inherited commitment. Nevertheless, the fact remains that allocations arrived late as a consequence of bunching in the previous financial year.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to meet the chairman of the area health authorities in Wales to discuss the Government's national health service reforms.

I met the chairmen of the health authorities in Wales on 10 July. I look forward to meeting them again collectively in October.

Is not the reality that few people in Wales support the so-called reforms? They will lead to the worst kind of chequebook medicine and divert real resources that should be used to heal the sick to useless exercises such as form filling and counting pills. Is it not time that those so-called reforms were abandoned?

No, it is not. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that funding for the Welsh national health service has risen from under £500 million in 1979 to more than £1,500 million today. The reforms now seek to target those substantial resources more effectively. The right hon. Gentleman should also consider the clear objectives that ministerial colleagues and I have set the health service in Wales—I shall send him a copy if he likes. Everyone knows that we have set a target to become the best in Europe, and we are well on the way towards achieving that.

But if the resources are available and the policies are so successful, why are beds lying empty in hospitals in Merthyr because of lack of staff, while qualified staff are unable to get jobs and, at the same time, the area authority is employing agency staff? In the name of heaven, what has that to do with the reforms? Let us make the present system work more effectively rather than creating stupid and foolish competition within the health service.

What we are doing is to make the present system work more effectively. No one can dispute the tremendous additional resources that have gone into the health service in Wales. I hope that even the hon. Gentleman will admit that there has been a substantial real-terms increase in the amount of resources devoted to the health service in his constituency. We must now follow the clear target that we have set, of adding years to life and quality of life to years.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widespread recognition in my constituency of the Government's record on the national health service, as seen in the renewal and upgrading of each of our four cottage or community hospitals? People recognise just how much the Government have spent compared with the previous Government who cut—slashed, indeed—public expenditure on the health service. In Delyn we recognise the need for the Government to get value for money in terms of the NHS reforms.

How right my hon. Friend is. We will always win any argument about resources, because we have put substantial, additional resources into the NHS. We now have to have a meaningful, clear policy towards which we can all work—everyone involved in the NHS. We have now set that target, and we believe that we are the first health service in Europe to do so. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) should be proud of that, and not seek to make party political points out of health.

May I congratulate the Secretary of State on reversing his predecessor's decision on Project 2000? I also congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his decision not to axe the community health councils—another of his predecessor's proposals. However, will the Secretary of State now decide to give the appropriate authorities sufficient funding to enable care in the community to become a reality? I speak for the elderly and the mentally ill and in the cities and towns of Wales, it is clear that all is not well. What will he do to make care in the community a reality, not a Government slogan?

Obviously, an announcement will be made about the subject to which the hon. Gentleman has devoted himself. I hope that he will recognise that the point of a consultation exercise is to listen carefully to the points made. After hearing the results of the consultation, I decided not to proceed with reducing the number of community health councils.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to meet leaders of the farming unions in Wales to discuss the problems of young entrants to the agriculture industry.

My right hon. Friend met the leaders of the unions on 27 June, although this subject was not discussed. He has also agreed to meet them and the young farmers' clubs during his visit to the Royal Welsh show next week.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. He and his colleagues will be aware that the number of young people engaged in agriculture has dropped significantly in recent years, and that the number of students attending colleges of agriculture has also dropped alarmingly. I am sure that the Minister will agree that we need a comprehensive range of packages for young farmers, including more starter holdings, low-interest loans, which are available in France, and a milk quota pool for new entrants. As a result of discussions at the Royal Welsh show will the Minister assure us that the Welsh Office will take a bold initiative on behalf of young Welsh farmers?

The smallholdings, which are available for young entrants to the industry, are not a central Government responsibility, but a responsibility of the local authorities in Wales. During the five years from 1984 to March 1989, the number of smallholdings in Wales remained nearly constant—they increased in total size. A number of measures are being taken to encourage young entrants into agriculture, but some of them are dependent on suggestions from the industry. With regard to the availability of loans, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that loan subsidies are available in some continental countries, but the choice facing us was to have either subsidised loans or capital grants, and we opted for capital grants because they have advantages.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will commission a survey of incomes in the border counties of Wales.

No, Sir. There is already sufficient information available in the new earnings survey details.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the earnings survey details show a remarkable convergence in average incomes between counties on both sides of the Welsh border? In the light of that, does he agree that there might well be a case for looking again at the economic, financial and other incentives available to individuals and businesses for moving to the Welsh side of the border?

In Avon, the relevant figure, which we were comparing before, is £241.30, and in Gloucestershire it is £230.10, as opposed to a figure in Gwent of £212.20. Therefore, I do not accept my hon. Friend's initial premise.

Will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that, as regards Mid-Wales, the activities of the Development Board for Rural Wales will be as fully supported during his tenure as Secretary of State as they were under previous Administrations? Will he ensure that there are sufficient resources for the board's economic and social programme, in view of the potential competition from over the border in Telford?

As it happens, I was in the hon. Gentleman's constituency yesterday with the chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales, Mr. Glyn Davies, and I was able to reassure him once again of the importance that I attach to the work of the board, and my strong commitment to its future work.

When my right hon. Friend answered an earlier question on incomes in Wales, which related closely to this question, he gave an undertaking to the House that his first priority was to improve the quality of life for the people of Wales. We all know that, once he was appointed by the Prime Minister, the House had a good Secretary of State for Wales. If he says that he intends to improve the quality of life in Wales, he will certainly do so.

I thank my hon. Friend.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next proposes to meet the chairman of Tai Cymru to discuss the collapse of the Corlan housing association.

My right hon. Friend is meeting the Board of Housing for Wales tomorrow.

Would the Under-Secretary of State agree that, following the collapse of the Corlan housing association and the Government's determination to give housing associations a greater role, which was previously occupied by council housing, the Government's housing policy in Wales is now in a shambles?

That is an extraordinary statement. I should have thought that for the hon. Gentleman's constituents, for mine and for those of other hon. Members in Wales, the hon. Gentleman should have expressed appreciation for Tai Cymru and for the Wales and West housing association for the remarkable job that they have done in safeguarding the homes of so many of our constituents.

But does the Minister accept that housing associations, and Tai Cymru in particular, simply do not have enough money to cope with the problems of Welsh housing and that that is really a matter for Welsh local authorities? When will the Government give local authorities the right to spend their own money on building houses for people in need in Wales? When will he put someone representing local government on the board of Tai Cymru?

The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that local authorities' gross provision for housing this year has increased by 15 per cent. and that Tai Cymru's has gone up by 42 per cent. Local authorities are allowed to use their allowable money on new build, if they so wish. For instance, one of the hon. Gentleman's neighbouring authorities, Newport, has gone into new build consistently for several years, whereas for some reason, his own local authority seems to have ceased to do so.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what discussions the Commissioners have held with the Arts Council about Church property.

None, Sir.

May I invite my right hon. Friend to encourage the leaders of the Church to discuss with Mr. Peter Palumbo his imaginative proposals for enabling this generation to repair the major national institutions and buildings, be they theatres or churches and cathedrals, as we approach the next century? If he does so, will he suggest looking into the fabric of the buildings and the security of buildings so that we can avoid such intrusions as occurred at Westminster abbey recently, when stained glass windows were broken?

I note, not without sympathy, my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I draw his attention to the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside in the debate on arts and heritage in the House on 4 July at column 1094, when he expressed his enthusiasm for the idea that something special might be done to help the cathedrals and said that he proposed to address the matter in the forthcoming White Paper. My hon. Friend may therefore be pressing at an open door.

Would the Commissioner agree that the greatest contribution that the Church makes to the arts and the development of the arts is in the maintenance of Church buildings? In that regard, will he congratulate the Priory parish in Birkenhead on spending £1 million on restoring its parish church? Does he agree that that contrasts vividly with the dilatory way in which the diocese has dealt with another outstanding church on the other side of the river—Christ church, Bootle?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. The £1 million that he mentioned is a staggering sum for a local parish to raise. That is in stark contrast to the other parish, and the failure of the diocese to help is manifest in what he said. The Church of England, through its various funds, spends about £70 million a year on the refurbishment and maintenance of parish churches, and that is a considerable sum.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how much has been spent by the Church Commissioners on assistance with community charge for archbishops, bishops, clergy and others; and if he will make a statement.

An estimated £8.5 million for the year beginning 1 April. The clergy and their spouses have no domestic rates savings to offset against their personal charge liability, and the Commissioners' contribution provides some three quarters of the costs of special stipend increases to help them meet the charge. The extra tax and national insurance on those increases amounts to about £4 million per annum, which is included in the Commissioners' contribution.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that clergymen, including archbishops, must take on a second home—they cannot own their main home—and are therefore required to pay the community charge twice? Will he press the Government to help them or to absolve them from payment on their second homes? On whom has he put his money for the next Archbishop of Canterbury? That is a matter of much interest.

On the second point, I certainly could not afford a stake on that hazardous betting lottery.

The right hon. Gentleman will know that, in an effort to reduce the injustices and absurdities of the poll tax, the Government gave a lump sum for the upkeep of Church buildings, which by definition mainly assisted the established Church. Is he aware of any means of compensating the nonconformist Churches?

The hon. Gentleman has pointed out a limitation of the substantial sum—more than £3 million—that the Government made available through English Heritage towards the support of Church buildings. He is right to say that a number of the buildings of the free Churches do not qualify for such help. I shall take careful note of his criticism of that limitation, and inquire whether anything can be done to help the free Churches. I cannot commit myself to an affirmative and positive answer.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what has been the Commissioners' contribution to the upkeep of Lambeth palace during the past five years.

As the owners of Lambeth palace, the Church Commissioners are wholly responsible for the upkeep of the buildings, which has cost some £329,000 over the past five years.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the people of this country need an Archbishop of Canterbury who will preach evangelical Christianity rather than socialism?

I am entirely in favour of having an archbishop who is conservative all round. If I had to accept a limitation on that, I would prefer him to be theologically conservative, whatever his politics might be.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what proposals have been put forward so far in the management consultancy exercise on the House of Commons conducted by Sir Robin Ibbs.

None, Sir. The House of Commons Commission has asked Sir Robin to offer his advice to it by the beginning of the next Session of Parliament.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the problems of dragging this place into the 20th century so that it is a modern, professional legislature, is that its lines of accountability are rather blurred, there are few clear budgeting functions and responsibility is split between the Commission, the Services Committee and its subcommittees and the Department of the Environment? Will he undertake to ensure that the Ibbs report covers those matters so that we can be clear about where responsibility lies and about how to get things changed in this antiquated place?

Yes, Sir. I told the House that Sir Robin's terms of reference were to examine whether the responsibilities at present divided between the Commission, the Services Committee, the Department of the Environment and Leader of the House could be brought together

"with a view to ensuring that so far as possible there is a co-ordinated management and decision-taking structure under the control of the House".—[Official Report, 23 May 1990; Vol. 173, c. 179.]

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the likely findings of the Ibbs report—contrary to what was said by the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen)—is that the Palace of Westminster copes in the most remarkable manner with the obligations that are increasingly thrust upon it? Does he also agree that one of the tremendous strains on the House is imposed by a battalion of so-called research assistants, who appear to clog our proceedings greatly?

The Commission would not have appointed Sir Robin if it had thought that it knew all the answers to all the questions that he has been asked to consider. Many people contribute most effectively to making the House run well. Many work within it—not just its employees, but those who assist Members as secretaries and research assistants. We believe that the work that Sir Robin is doing may assist us to have better systems for doing those things well in the future.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick on Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the average delay between receipt of a bill for payment on behalf of hon. and right hon. Members out of the secretarial etc. allowance and its payment.

Direct payments to third parties authorised by hon. and right hon. Members to be made out of their office costs allowances are paid each week, normally on a Thursday. Depending on the day of the week on which a claim is received, the Fees Office would normally expect to make payment that week or the following week.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that answer. I am sure that he will join me in praising the Fees Office for the work that it does with the resources at its command. Nevertheless, it sometimes has to decide which bills are to be paid this week and which are to be delayed. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is deplorable that a temporary secretary should have to wait two months to receive the salary for which she has worked, and should still be waiting for her P45?

If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind, I hope that he will bring it to my notice. It is the practice of the Fees Office to seek to ensure that Members' staff, in particular, are paid promptly. The only circumstance that I can think of in which that cannot happen is where a claim is made for payment on the ensuing year's allowance, rather than the allowance for the current year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is not an isolated incident? There has been an abundance of cases of delay in payment of allowance, of delay in implementation of an increase in salary and of Members' salaries being lost in the post and not being caught up with for months. That suggests there may be understaffing in the Fees Office, or that the system needs reviewing. One of those possibilities needs to be looked at.

Representations do not seem to confirm the widespread nature of the problem to which the hon. Gentleman has referred—least of all the problem of hon. Members not being paid. However, if cases are brought to my notice, I will certainly ensure that the Fees Office attends to them immediately.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, when he last met trade union representatives of the House of Commons staff to discuss terms and conditions of employment.

Negotiations between management and trade union representatives of House of Commons staff are delegated by the House of Commons Commission to the Board of Management and the Administration Committee, and take place within the framework of the House of Commons Whitley committee. Consequently, the Commission's involvement in negotiations is required only on significant occasions such as the breakdown of the agreed disputes procedure or the signing of recognition agreements. The last such occasion—the latter case—was on 10 March 1986.

Has the hon. Gentlman met trade union representatives of staff employed by hon. Members, especially in respect of health and safety provisions? If not, will he do so?

The Commission would certainly wish to be aware if there were problems of which representatives of staff members were aware. There are channels through which these can be brought forward. There is no current case of any dispute between the Commission and any trade union.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a problem for the Refreshment Department and that it would be better—for security reasons alone—if there were more permanent staff? Does he agree that, because of the wage scales of the refreshment staff in the restaurants, the turnover is very high, and that most people think that what those staff are paid is well below what they could earn outside? Is it not time that we paid people more, got better staff and kept them?

I fully share the hon. Gentleman's wish that the staff of the Refreshment Department should be well paid, and should have security and continuity of employment. I believe that to be in the interests of the House. Evidence to date suggests that the rates of pay in the Refreshment Department are in accordance with those paid outside the House, but the matter is under consideration by the Commission.

To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to introduce plans to change the private Bill procedure; and if he will make a statement.

We shall look for an early opportunity to bring forward legislation to implement the proposals in our recently published consultation document, taking into account comments received in response to this consultation.

I know that the Leader of the House has been very busy lately, what with all the problems surrounding the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and so forth, but why does he not get on with the job? When I came here 20 years ago, about 10 Bills would receive parliamentary time; now, there are as many as 30. Will not history record that, in 1990, while the Germans were taking over the Common Market and the rest of Europe, this Tory Government were pottering about with Bills about closing pits, running racing circuits and opening crematoria?

On the contrary. I am interested to hear that the hon. Gentleman has noticed the upsurge in the number of private Bills being introduced. If he studies them more closely, he will see that they are to do with the promotion of private enterprise in many sectors and are representative of the tremendous expansion of enterprise and activity in this country as a result of the policies of the past 10 years.

To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any proposals to improve safety and access for hon. Members whose offices are outside the main House of Commons building.

The existing pedestrian crossing at the south-east corner of Parliament square is to be upgraded to a controlled crossing as part of a package of measures designed to improve the movement of pedestrians and traffic in Parliament square. This has been agreed between both Houses and Westminster city council.

Before chaos descends on Parliament square and elsewhere, may I ask the Lord President whether he has noted that his previous reply suggested that the main objective of Westminster city council is to accelerate traffic? That will present increasing danger to hon. Members who have offices across the road. Even the so-called traffic refuge seems to be used more as a private motorway for motor cyclists than as a safety resort for pedestrians. It seems that no hon. Members who have offices on the other side of the road have taken part in consideration of this matter. Will the Lord President give fresh consideration to the safety of Members rather than risking by-elections, which might pose a greater danger to his party?

I appreciate that some hon. Members feel strongly about this matter, and I have had an opportunity to talk to the hon. Gentleman about it. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee and the appropriate Committee of the other place have looked at the problem, which has also been carefully considered by Westminster city authorities. The object of the exercise is to regulate traffic into and out of Parliament square so as to provide more effective controlled opportunities during which traffic ceases to move. As the hon. Gentleman knows, Westminster city council is investigating the possibility of an additional central refuge.

To ask the Lord President of the Council when he last paid an official visit to the Westminster gymnasium.

I visited the Westminster gymnasium on Monday 16 October 1989 in course of a tour of the parliamentary estate. I did not stay long.

I am not suggesting that my right hon. and learned Friend should make unofficial visits to the gymnasium. Is he aware of the growing number of hon. Members who visit the gymnasium and of the long waiting list of staff who want to visit it? Will he lend his considerable weight to current discussions about transferring as soon as possible the facilities in Norman Shaw South to the greatly enlarged premises vacated by the old Cannon row police station?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that the present accommodation is considered inadequate for the demands that are placed upon it. Relocation is being considered, and I understand that the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has given approval in principle for the present gymnasium to be relocated in alternative accommodation within the parliamentary estate—in the place described by my hon. Friend.

To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any plans to grant-aid the cost of courses undertaken by hon. Members who pursue physical education activities; and if he will make a statement.

I have no such plans.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that money spent on grant-aiding hon. Members to undertake physical education would be well spent because it would make us fitter to do our demanding job, reduce the weight of many overweight Members, and make us all more efficient in pursuing our tasks?

If my hon. Friend goes on advocating that cause with his customary zeal, I cannot see any case for spending public money on it.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for improving the provision of personal staff to hon. Members; and if he will make a statement.

The provision of Members' personal staff is a matter for Members themselves. I have no proposals to change the financial and administrative arrangements that govern that provision.

I thank the Lord President for the work that I know he has put into setting up the review into Members' services. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that the review takes account of the previous exercises which have been undertaken, in which it was suggested that hon. Members could have an office in their constituency that would be staffed by the House of Commons Commission, so that hon. Members could do their job in this place and in their constituencies to an even greater degree and in even greater depth than they can at present?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's commendation of the establishment of the Ibbs committee, which is examining administrative matters within the House generally. His supplementary question goes beyond that and would require much wider consideration by hon. Members generally. It would go beyond the present principle of financing secretarial services within the present rules.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the induction procedures for new hon. Members for a general election.

New Members will receive, in advance of their arrival at the House, an updated briefing pack describing the services provided by Departments of the House. In addition, Heads of Department and senior Officers of the House are available for consultation. Induction in the Chamber will be in accordance with well-established procedure.

I have had the benefit of most valued advice from fellow Members since my arrival here about five weeks ago. It occurs to me that, in the event of a general election, when many new Members will be attending the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Labour."] Yes, obviously Labour Members—the lack of any proper method of induction is an anachronism. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman wish to consider redressing this problem?

To sustain the quality of advice that will be given to the many Conservative Members who may enter the House after the next election, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question deserves consideration. If he wishes to raise any matters that come within his own experience, I shall be glad to examine them.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, in the United States, Harvard university runs a course every two years for newly elected members of the Congress? Will my right hon. and learned Friend give some thought to whether something of that sort might be appropriate here?

That is a novel suggestion in the British context. As it has the authority of my right hon. Friend, I shall examine it with care.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement concerning the recyclability of paper used for the official documents of the House.

All the paper that is provided by HMSO for official use in the House of Commons can be recycled. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has given approval for a number of items of stationery containing recycled paper to be introduced to the House.

How many thousands of tonnes of paper are used by the House during a year, and why is not much more of it recycled, bearing in mind the fact that we should be setting an example?

I do not have the figure at my fingertips. As the hon. and learned Gentleman was told on 5 February, all the paper that is provided for official use in the House can be recycled. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Comittee is considering ways in which recycled material can be used more widely. The matter is under active consideration, as the hon. and learned Gentleman would wish.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what progress has been made in implementing the revised proposals for the consideration of EEC legislation.

Having heard the views expressed in the debate on 28 June on the Procedure Committee's report on the scrutiny of European legislation and the Government's response to it, I hope to put detailed proposals for change before the House very shortly with a view to operating the new arrangements from the start of the next Session.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, when three rather important directives on milk, meat and cadmium will have to be approved or disapproved by the House this evening in about 30 seconds, it is a bit of an insult to the democracy that many of us believe in? Does he agree that, if we go to the intergovernmental conference and agree to the control of our economy by a central bank, we may as well close this place down?

My hon. Friend raises a wide range of questions, which go well beyond the question that I have answered. I hope that he will derive some satisfaction from the fact that the arrangement which the House in general approved will be put in place at a fairly early date.