To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to change the method of distribution of EC butter and beef in 1994 in Clwyd and Wales.

May I start, Madam Speaker, by wishing you, on behalf of everyone here, a happy St. David's day.

I am glad to hear that from the Minister, because he will know that in my constituency, people in parts of Glyndwr, which is not distributing food, receive food via their community council. Many people live close to Wrexham council areas, where people automatically receive food via the district council. That is utterly unfair. I hope that the review will have the result that everyone who is entitled to EC surplus food will receive it.

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. There is a differing degree of coverage throughout Wales. Taking the example of one part of my constituency, one individual—Councillor Victor Reilly—has taken on the superhuman job of spearheading the distribution of butter and beef. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the publicity that has been given to the scheme has resulted in twice as many organisations coming forward this winter as were in operation last year.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on the cost of local government reform in Wales.

The Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government had a full discussion about the Touche Ross report on the costs of local government reorganisation at its meeting on 17 February. Since the report was published I have received three written representations.

The Secretary of State will be aware of the view of the Association of Welsh Counties that a balanced interpretation of the Touche Ross report suggests that the cost of local government reorganisation in Wales could be anything between £100 million and £150 million. So how can the Secretary of State justify his claim that the cost will be recovered in seven years, bearing in mind from previous experience the fact that local government reform is an absolute disaster in financial terms? Is it true that this year's county budgets have been cut to find money for the reforms?

On the last point, no, that is not true. As the hon. Gentleman will see if he looks at the figures, the total standard spending for local authorities in the coming financial year is up by 3·1 per cent., even before one takes into account the amount set aside for community care, which puts the increase up to 3·5 per cent.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the expense of the previous local government reorganisation was largely due to the creation of multi-tier arrangements, which have so disastrously failed? Will he give some reassurance and some figures about, for example, what savings will be occasioned by his present proposals, particularly in the cases of Monmouth and Gwent? Gwent county council is seen by the public as an unnecessary and extravagant layer of local government.

I agree with my hon. Friend. Substantial annual savings will flow from the reorganisation into unitary authorities. For the mid-range of about 20 to 23 authorities, one is looking at annual savings of between £12 million and £17 million. Of course, the previous example cannot be followed for the reasons that my hon. Friend gave. We shall make absolutely sure that the reorganisation presents value for money as well as establishing good, strong local government.

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that not only the county councils but many district councils believe that he has seriously underestimated the cost of local government reform? Does he accept that many of the figures are pure guesswork, especially when it comes to the amount that local authorities will have to pay out in redundancy payments? How can he justify the fact that local government might cost as much as £150 million when Wales is recoiling at the savagery of the cuts to education and other local government services?

The hon. Gentleman made a number of points. First, local government reorganisation into unitary authorities is widely welcomed in Wales. The hon. Gentleman should recall that, right at the start of the consultation process, no strong lobby argued that we should continue the existing system, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans) said, there are savings to be achieved by having one unitary local authority administering services.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the effect of EC regulations on small and medium-sized abattoirs in Wales.

Numerous.

I hope that the Secretary of State and the Minister will appreciate that the costs that have been imposed on small and medium-sized abattoirs because of the current interpretation of the European hygiene regulations are crippling, especially for those abattoirs that now provide slaughter close to the point of production, produce excellent quality meat and have an excellent record on animal welfare—just the sort of business that we should encourage.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman recalls that there was widespread dissatisfaction with the old system, which had dual standards between meat for the home market and that for the export market. It was also felt that some establishments were undercutting others that conformed to high hygiene standards. That is why we are seeking to introduce the new standards, while minimising the burden on small abattoirs in particular.

Will my right hon. Friend note that the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) is shared not only by my colleagues on the Conservative Benches but, beyond Wales, throughout the United Kingdom? Although we recognise the steps to which my right hon. Friend referred, in particular to aid small abattoirs to comply with the regulations, veterinary changes are primarily the great barrier. Will my right hon. Friend note that the House desires still more to be done to assist that sector of agriculture?

I recognise the compelling point that my hon. Friend has made. Supervision by official veterinarians —[Interruption.]—if I can get the word right—or veterinary consultants, is important. I apologise; I have had a rather heavy St. David's day lunch.

The Secretary of State was kind enough to see me on 26 January, along with two of the proprietors of the most successful abattoirs in Wales. On that occasion, the representatives, including Mr. Edward Hammer, my constituent, made clear to the Secretary of State the desperate trouble that they were in as a result of the new regulations. What, if anything, has the Secretary of State done since that meeting to alleviate the problem?

I have done a number of things, to which I have already referred. I have written to all local authorities seeking to bring down the costs of inspection—[Interruption.] I can tell the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that St. David was the man of water. When we refer to a St. David's day lunch, we refer to the consumption of water, nothing else.

The Secretary of State may have written many letters to many local authorities, but where were he and the Welsh Office when the directive was negotiated? When I read it, it seemed as though the vets had negotiated the directive. The problem is that duplication occurs between the meat inspectors and the vets—much work could still be done by the meat inspectors. Charges vary so much between local authority districts. What is the Secretary of State going to do about the problem?

From his own experience, the right hon. Gentleman will know the importance of food hygiene. We are talking about constantly improving food hygiene so that the public can have every confidence, not only in the quality of food, but in the hygiene behind the provision of that food, which is important. That is why I was around when the directive was being negotiated and I supported the introduction of the standards. However, I recognise that we must do our best to minimise their impact, particularly on small businesses.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are his plans for provision of youth facilities in Wales.

I will continue to support local authorities and other organisations and agencies in their efforts to promote and develop provision for young people in Wales.

Those are fine words, but lacking in content. Does the Minister recognise that the inadequate finances made available by the Welsh Office to local authorities this year means that the efforts of local people, voluntary organisations and far-sighted councillors—like those in my local authority of South Glamorgan, which has sought over the years to build up the youth service —are being undermined? Does he agree with my constituent, Mrs. Yeo of Tremorfa, who, seeing the effect of the inadequate resources on her 15-year-old son and others in his age group, suggested that the cuts should be made to the Minister's finances in the Welsh Office, not forced on the local youth service?

I am aware that some authorities are thinking of limiting spending on youth services. However, I must remind the hon. Gentleman—as did my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—that we have increased the revenue settlement for local authorities for the coming year by 3·1 per cent. If one takes the past two years together, there is an increase of 25 per cent. and, over three years, there has been an increase of 29 per cent.

The Minister of State has obviously not had a share of the Secretary of State's St. David's day diod. The Minister should acknowledge that under the revenue support grant settlement for the forthcoming financial year, every county authority in Wales is having to cut its youth service provision. Does not he recognise how short-sighted that policy is, particularly when growing youth unemployment is pushing young people towards disaffection and alienation? Does not he realise the dangers that his policies are inflicting on the fabric of our society?

The choice is for the local authorities. We have done a great deal to support the youth organisations that are concerned with the well-being of our young people. Since 1988 we have provided grants worth about £1·4 million for national voluntary youth organisations. We have established the Youth Agency, funded to the tune of about £360,000 this year. We have provided £2 million worth of youth facilities since 1991–92 under the urban programme. And we have also ensured that we have met the youth training guarantee.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the difference between the number of men and the number of women in full-time employment in Wales and Mid Glamorgan currently and in June 1979.

Figures are not available separately for Mid Glamorgan. The proportion of the male work force in civilian employment or training was 7 per cent. greater in 1979 than 1992. The corresponding figure for women, including part-time employees, was the same for both years.

Even given the paucity of his figures, I hope that the Minister will admit that the reduction that they show proves that there is still a real crisis in employment in Wales. I hope that he will make two commitments this afternoon: first, that no part of Wales should lose its assisted area status in the current review. In its press releases the Welsh Office trumpets the value of that assistance to industry in Wales from time to time. Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman call in the banks in Wales and get them to review their policy towards small businesses? The policy of the banks—there have been a number of complaints against Lloyds in particular—is causing a large number of small businesses to go into liquidation quite unnecessarily. Will he give those commitments now?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that both matters are under active consideration. Many Ministers have been involved in discussions with the banks.

As the Secretary of State seems to want to run away from answering questions on the economy today, may I tell him that I am in the rather fortunate position of having not only a daffodil but a leek—a leak from the Conservative research department, in the form of its briefing for today's debate? The Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues will never grasp the seriousness of unemployment in Wales while they rely on the garbage written by the Conservative research department. The document trumpets the major inward investment successes of 1992, yet the first three listed, General Electric at Nantgarw, Ford at Bridgend and Texaco at Pembroke, do not produce an additional job between them—

Order. This is Question Time; we have an Adjournment debate on the whole subject of Wales later. I ask the hon. Gentleman to put his question now.

I have done.

The hon. Gentleman plainly shows that he has no question to ask. Once again, he chooses to ignore the realities of life in Wales, especially during the recession. Wales has been demonstrating the fundamental strength of its economy by the way in which it has been fighting back. Unemployment is now below the national average for the first time in 70 years. It is 0·3 per cent. lower; when we went into recession, it was 0·8 per cent. higher than the national average.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he is taking to improve the employment prospects for the long-term unemployed in Ogmore, Mid Glamorgan and Wales.

Extensive measures.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will those measures reduce the unemployment in Ogmore and in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths)? In 1979, total unemployment in the Ogmore constituency, which then included Bridgend, was 3·7 per cent. It is now well over 20 per cent. in my area. In addition, there are long-term unemployed people and they were made unemployed by the actions of the Government since 1979 when they reduced manning in the steel industry and closed seven collieries. What does the Minister propose to do to employ people in my constituency, in Bridgend and throughout Wales?

Of course, our economic policies will bring down unemployment, but there is always a lag between a reduction in inflation, which are now down to 1·7 per cent., and a reduction in interest rates, which is now down to 6 per cent. Even against that background and the background of the present recession, not only in this country but in many others, the Employment Service managed to place 1·4 million unemployed people back into jobs last year. Next year, starting in April, our programme of employment and training opportunities will give almost 1·5 million opportunities for unemployed people, especially those who have been out of work for some time.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that prospects for the long-term unemployed in Ogmore, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom, are infinitely better under this Government than they would be under a Labour Government, especially in the context of the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty? If the Opposition had their way, the social chapter would be included in the treaty and, if implemented, it would drastically affect unemployment in this country.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the past seven years in Wales there has been a substantial reduction£41 per cent.—in the number of long-term unemployed. That represents a fall from 78,000 to 46,000£ a reduction of 32,000. Wales now has record productivity and record manufacturing output. Our message is that Wales will lead the United Kingdom out of recession.

The Secretary of State has another record. He has 134,000 unemployed people in Wales and one in three of them is long-term unemployed. The total cost of that unemployment to the Welsh economy is £1·2 billion. Those are the records of reality about which the Secretary of State chooses not to speak. Does not he realise that the time for his con tricks and cosmetics is past? If we are to tackle the problem of the long-term unemployed we need a completely new approach and a strategy that will renew our economy and revitalise our manufacturing sector.

The hon. Gentleman says that we need to revitalise our manufacturing sector. Let us look at the facts. Manufacturing output is 126·3 per cent. compared with 100 per cent. in 1979. It is up by over 25 per cent. The index of production in the United Kingdom over the past year was up by 0·4 per cent. while in Wales it was up by 1·4 per cent. Manufacturing productivity now stands at over £30,000 per employee, which is one of the highest anywhere in the United Kingdom and 6·4 per cent. above the United Kingdom average. When one looks at the facts one sees the answer to the hon. Gentleman. He should start talking up the Welsh economy and then we should certainly see the growth that we need.

I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the steps that they have already taken about employment in Wales. In view of the planning permission for the gas terminal at Point of Ayr, would not it be sensible for employment in Wales and in parts of Merseyside as well if some pressure were put on the Department of Trade and Industry to grant section 36 consent for the Connah's Quay power station? I hope that that will happen very soon.

I recognise that my hon. Friend has been lobbying extremely hard on this subject. As he recognised, it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade because section 36 consent is under his aegis. I shall ensure that my hon. Friend's words are immediately conveyed to my right hon. Friend.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of British Rail's valleys line network to discuss investment.

The Cardiff-valleys network was one of the issues that my right hon. Friend discussed with the chairman of British Rail and his regional railways director when they met on 7 September last.

Does the Minister recognise that the huge growth in vehicle traffic over the past 20 years or so has made many of our key trunk roads congested, dangerous and often the source of major pollution of the atmosphere? Will he ensure that our extensive rail networks are employed to their fullest extent and that adequate investment is made available to make them user-friendly and efficient so that we can get traffic off the roads and back on to the railways, where it should be?

The hon. Gentleman will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave supplementary credit approvals totalling £3·56 million to Mid and South Glamorgan for funding major investment projects in the valleys network. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want to take traffic off the road and we are investigating the position of the A470 between Pontypridd and Coryton. We are looking at the possibilities of investment in rail to cover the increased use of that area and of that road in particular.

What are the prospects for a link between the valleys network and Cardiff bay? Secondly, is there any hope of getting a link with the Cardiff Wales airport?

My Department is supporting a study, commissioned by South Glamorgan county council in conjunction with other local authorities, British Rail and the Cardiff Bay development corporation, into options, including a light rail system, for improved public transport links between the valleys and Cardiff bay. The railway to Rhoose airport is a matter for South Glamorgan county council, which has discussed it with British Rail, but there has been no positive decision.

Surely the Minister recognises that the valleys line is in a deplorable state, with trains running late and crowded. Often, the service is not available. When, as valley Members, we take up the issue with British Rail, its answer is that stock has had to be transferred to lines outside Wales because of general shortages. Will the Minister take up immediately with the relevant controllers of British Rail the matter of stealing railway stock from Wales and transferring it to England?

I shall consider and investigate what the hon. Gentleman has said. He will know as well as I do that operational matters are for British Rail rather than for me.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what specific measures he proposes to take to safeguard existing jobs in Wales.

The Welsh Office, together with the development agencies and training and development councils, already has in train a number of measures to encourage enterprise, create new jobs and safeguard existing jobs.

I have a simple question. What efforts has the Secretary of State made since October last year, when this came to light, to safeguard and protect the 3,000 jobs at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency at Swansea?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, but I am fully involved in the discussions and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that no decisions have been made. The current framework document for the agency expires in April of this year and it is therefore proper that all options should be carefully explored.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways to bring down unemployment in Wales is to go on encouraging inward investment into the Principality, on which our record is second to none?

Given the latest figures for inward investment, despite the worldwide recession, it is remarkable that, once again, previous records have been beaten. To have more than 200 promising projects, many of which are still to recruit and to invest their capital programmes, is a good sign of the optimism that is present in Wales; confidence and order books are high. Now, we want to see the growth in the economy that all that promises.

As the Secretary of State is aware, we welcome all inward investment. Does he not think it grotesque, however, that at a time when he and his colleagues are, as previous Governments did, working to secure such investment, his Cabinet colleague, the Secretary of State for Transport, is putting at risk twice as many jobs in three agencies at Swansea as the jobs that are at risk at Fords? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the Secretary of State for Transport understands clearly that privatisation should not be used as a weapon against regional policy?

First, I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said about inward investment. We are greatly assisted by many hon. Members on both sides of the House in making sure that we win investment. We are successful because we follow a team approach. I include in the team, of course, local authorities, agencies and hon. Members.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement concerning the exportation of products from the Lampeter region.

I am pleased to say that a number of firms in the Lampeter area are exporting very successfully.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many hotels in the far east, and I include Jakarta—[Interruption.] I shall ask my question despite attempts by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), both in the Chamber and outside, to prevent me from doing so. Is my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.]

Order.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many parts of the far east, including Jakarta, the only type of bottled water that can be bought is, surprisingly, that from Perrier in France? Is he aware also that Lampeter bottles excellent water called Ty Nant? What is my right hon. Friend doing to promote its export?

Ty Nant spring water of Lampeter is well known to my Department, and I am aware of the success that has been achieved in exporting it abroad. My officials have visited the company and provided its representatives with advice and information about the opportunities that are available in overseas markets. I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that he will find Ty Nant spring water in western Europe, the United States of America and Australia. I dare say that it is what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had for lunch today in honour of St. David, who was a man who had a predilection for water.

Is the Minister aware that Lampeter is the centre of the organic farming industry of Wales, with one company there employing 150 people? As organic farming is good for the environment and for people, will he encourage its growth so that we can eat vegetables and other foodstuffs as pure as Dewi Sant?

Seeing the daffodil on the hon. Gentleman's lapel and on the lapels of all round the Chamber, I am pleased that I am wearing a leek, which is at least edible. Yes, we encourage organic farming. We hope that it will be accompanied by warm libations of water.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received to date concerning his plans to establish a Welsh economic council.

A total of 88.

On this, St. David's day, will the Secretary of State accept that an economic council will not do away with the democratic deficit in Wales or improve the accountability of the Welsh Office and the Welsh quangos to the people of Wales? Does he accept that the only way in which we shall get sensitive government that can concentrate attention on the needs of Wales and respond to the widespread dissatisfaction with the present system of government is to have our own parliament in Cardiff that will be answerable to the people of Wales?

That point was not made in the 88 representations that I received, so the hon. Gentleman has made it on this occasion. I had hoped that he would say that he very much welcomed the proposal for a Welsh economic council. That has certainly been the view of almost everyone who responded to the consultation document.

To ask the Attorney-General what was the highest sum paid to a barrister in respect of (a) a prosecuting brief, (b) daily refreshers and (c) the highest combined total paid for a case in (i) criminal cases and (ii) civil cases in the past year; and if he will make a statement.

The specific answers to my hon. Friend's questions are, for criminal cases—(a) £329,000; (b) £750; (c) £545,678; and for civil cases £82,600.

Is not my hon. and learned Friend concerned that tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has been wasted on collapsed fraud and other trials? Will he urgently set up an inquiry so that we may learn the lessons of what went wrong in each case and ensure that there is no repetition?

That money has not been wasted. By definition, the function of a trial is to test the evidence. In the Plasser case, the magistrates heard the evidence and committed for trial; the judge heard the evidence and ruled that there was no case to answer. That is the function of a criminal trial.

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that in the payment of ordinary fees in heavyish cases, there remains great concern at the Bar because the Government are not paying their debts to lawyers in reasonable time? Will he take steps to ensure that the central taxing units meet their targets?

I can only advise the hon. and learned Gentleman to get a better clerk. In his next case, he will be entitled to an interim payment after 20 days. When the case is concluded, his clerk can put in a fee note for payment on account—long before it ever gets to the central taxation unit, as I know from my own experience.

Given the escalating costs of justice and the importance of everyone having access to the law to redress their problems, should not the Government urgently consider introducing a no win-no fee voluntary system of justice?

My hon. Friend's point is already under consideration. However, life in the Crown court is rather different from what some suggest. The standard fee for a guilty plea is £113. The standard brief fee for a case that lasts up to three days, including preparation and the first day, is £217, with a refresher of £150 per day. If the case lasts three days, that means a payment of £517 for work spread over at least four days.

To ask the Attorney-General what further advice he has to give on the Maastricht treaty in respect of parliamentary amendments.

I set out in my written answer to the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) on 22 February the principles applicable to amendments to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill. I shall advise the House on specific issues as necessary.

Why does not the Attorney-General admit that he came up with that advice the other day because a political shift had taken place in the House? I ask the Attorney-General to be prepared. Because of the Cabinet split and two Cabinet Ministers meeting with the prince of darkness, the iron lady and her guru, the right hon. and learned Gentleman ought to have other advice ready. If the Prime Minister gets the sack and the other lot take over, the right hon. and learned Gentleman better have a separate piece of legal advice, because the one that he has will not be good enough.

That may be the way that legal advice is given in the principality where the hon. Gentleman is prince but in the world where you rule, Madam Speaker, and in this country, legal advice is given independently and dispassionately.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is strange that the Leader of the Opposition says that he is in favour of the Maastricht treaty but then does his damnedest to frustrate the Bill's passage through the House?

I give legal advice to the House, so I shall not comment—but I well understand my hon. Friend's point.

I am sure that the Attorney-General agrees with the constitutional proposition that the Government derive their authority from Parliament, not the other way around. Having advised the House that the Government can treat the passage of amendment No. 27 with impunity, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman advise the House whether, if it wants to adopt the social chapter, it would effectively be able to do so by adopting amendment No. 443 or some other amendment? Does not the Attorney-General have a duty to advise the House how it may properly express its will?

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman invites me to comment on an amendment on which the Chairman of Ways and Means has not yet taken a decision, and which is not yet even before the Committee.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will list his statutory powers to take legal action against Government Departments for breaches of the law.

My powers to take action for breaches of the law, whether ex officio or at the relation of a citizen, are founded in common law.

Given that the Attorney-General's authority is derived from common law, will he explain why he has never permitted a citizen of this country to take civil action in the courts against a Minister or Government Department, and why he is unwilling to explain his reasons for such a refusal?

I am not sure that the premise of the hon. Gentleman's question is right. When I lend my name in a relator action to a citizen in order to bring proceedings—whomsoever they are against—I review the matter dispassionately and carefully, in accordance with the law and the strength of the case that the citizen puts before me.

To ask the Attorney-General what proposals he has to reduce the level of crimes of fraud.

The Serious Fraud Office and the fraud investigation group of the Crown prosecution service are designed to deter the incidence of serious fraud by providing for effective investigation and prosecution.

As the Solicitor-General is aware, the law mercilessly pursues small earners for fraud offences involving payment of various taxes through the courts. How will the hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that those having incomes of £150,000 a year who pay little or no tax are brought to book? Does he think that the case of Mr. John Birt is one of tax evasion, fraud, or theft?

That matter is for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Serious Fraud Office has a budget of £21 million, 133 permanent staff, and 90 police attached to it. It is testimony of our determination to get to the bottom of white collar fraud.

Can my hon. and learned Friend give an assurance that the Serious Fraud Office has the expertise to deal with all the ramifications of recent allegations of local government corruption?

I can assure my hon. Friend of that. If fraud in local government is so widespread that it cannot be dealt with adequately by the Serious Fraud Office, no doubt the fraud investigation group of the Crown prosecution service can be called in. I assure my hon. Friend that, one way or another, the allegations will be thoroughly investigated and that if local government needs to be cleaned up, we shall ensure that it is cleaned up.

To ask the Attorney-Genera] how many cases have been put forward to the Court of Appeal for consideration for a possible increase in sentence as a result of his intervention during 1992.

In 1992, the Law Officers sought leave to refer 41 cases to the Court of Appeal, including four to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland. Three were later withdrawn in the light of further information. Twenty-one of those cases have been determined to date, in 19 of which the original sentence has been increased.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his answer.

I agree with my hon. Friend. Parliament was very wise to institute that power. In an effective criminal justice system it is important not only to be able to reduce over-severe sentences, but—if the Court of Appeal thinks it right—to be able to increase unduly lenient sentences. Similarly, it is important not only for the innocent not to be convincted, but for the system to be capable of bringing the guilty to justice.

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further representations he has received regarding the desirability of the United Kingdom Government's achieving the United Nations target of 0·7 per cent. gross national product for overseas aid.

We continue to receive representations from hon. Members and others.

Why does not the Minister listen to those representations—representations which might have prevented the disgraceful position in which he has placed the country, which has dropped to 13th in the league of aid-giving countries per head of population? Why does he not listen to the representations of Scottish Education and Action for Development, the Scottish Churches Council, Oxfam and all the other organisations and citizens in this country who are keen to ensure that the Government play their part in helping the third worldߞa part they are manifestly failing to play at present?

The hon. Gentleman should listen to some of the facts. Expenditure figures relating to the last year for which such figures are available show an increase of 3 per cent. on the year before in real terms, and expenditure in the coming year is to increase by 1 per cent. in real terms on last year's expenditure. At a time of great economic stringency, that is indeed success for the ODA budget.

Is it not a fact that our aid programme is one of the best-focused on poverty? In a tough year for expenditure, we have increased the budget for overseas development to £1·9 billion. Does not that show the generosity of people in this country, working with the non-governmental organisations, which also contribute a significant amount to the third world?

Yes. At a time of difficulty, we have done extremely well for the ODA budget. It is also true that there are considerable contributions from other quarters. United Kingdom direct investment overseas is half the European Community total; the 1991 estimate was £3,000 million.

How can the Minister justify cutting the aid budget as a proportion of gross national product by almost half over the past 13 years, and planning further substantial real cuts in two of the next three years, when over the past four years his Government have given British banks £2·25 billion—50 per cent. more than the ODA's total annual aid budget⁁in tax reliefs against possible defaults on third world loans? In fact, there have been no defaults, and not a penny of that money has been used to defray the debts of some of the world's poorest nations.

The hon. Gentleman asks several questions. Let us deal with the public expenditure survey for the next three years. At a time of great economic stringency, if he takes all forms of external assistance, he will find an increase of 10 per cent. in cash terms and 1 per cent. in real terms. [Interruption.] It is the ODA's budget. If the hon. Gentleman were to penalise the banks' accounting procedures for lending to the third world. It would stop them lending to the third world.

Does my hon. Friend agree that to the recipients of aid the quality of aid is as important as its quantity? Will he compare the quality of British aid with that of other donor countries?

The quality of aid certainly is important, but the enormous pressure on other aid programmes must be recognised. For example, Sweden, Norway, Finland, the United States and Italy have all announced plans to cut their aid budgets—in some cases substantially.

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are the latest estimates for overseas aid; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out the Government's spending plans for 1993–94 to 1995–96, including those for overseas aid, in his autumn statement on 12 November last year.

In view of the overseas aid figures that we have just heard and the reduction in aid to third-world countries, does not the Minister feel a little ashamed when he compares the fact that in 1991 the top four clearing banks set aside £720 million, yet third-world countries had no debts written off? Are not the Government running a strange society when the Chancellor of the Exchequer can write off £4,700 and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food can have £20,000 worth of assets added to his property, whereas little kids in South Africa and elsewhere with matchstick legs get hardly anything from this Government? If debts are going to be written off for banks and others, they should be written off for poor countries in the third world.

The hon. Member characteristically ignores many of the facts and makes a load of allegations that are quite unsubstantiated. Britain led the world in debt relief under the Trinidad terms initiated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, from which 14 countries have benefited, 11 of which were the poorest countries in Africa. Many of the private banks have written off debts, but the hon. Member, once again, seeks to penalise the banks by withdrawing tax relief, which would stop them lending to the third world.

In the light of Shyam Bathia's article in the Observer yesterday, which highlighted the tragic plight of those in the marshes of Iraq, will the Minister join me in thanking the ODA and the Foreign Office for their expertise in monitoring much more accurately than any other nation what was happening in the area? That has allowed organisations such as the Amar appeal to spend the only bilateral aid that is going into the marshes from the west, which comes from the Government and for which we are most truly grateful?

Yes, I am delighted to support my hon. Friend. I can say from my knowledge in other fields that the Government's contribution to help with all forms of humanitarian assistance in Iraq in the past two years amounts to £56 million.

The Minister properly emphasises the quality of aid, which depends on the freedom and choice of the Government to determine their own aid programme. Does he agree that under the treaty of European union there is some compulsion to co-ordinate aid policy? Would not that, to some extent at least, constrict the choices that are open to the Government?

The hon. Gentleman and I, and others, debated that only last week.

I did not.

The previous right hon. Member for South Down claimed many times to be participating in debates by listening. The hon. Member knows that the requirement in the treaty of Maastricht only enshrines practice heretofore. All members of the European Community will co-ordinate their aid policies, but that co-ordination does not undermine the right of each country to maintain its own bilateral aid programme.

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the percentage of the overseas aid budget allocated to population policies.

Some £26·5 million, or 1·5 per cent. of the aid programme, was spent on direct support for population programmes in 1991.

I thank my hon Friend for that answer and congratulate him on the story so far, but, in view of the growing concern about population, will he support the proposal that the G7 countries allocate at least 4 per cent. of their aid programmes to population policies? Can he confirm that his Department will be leading for the Government in the run-up to the United Nations conference in Cairo next year?

I can confirm that the Overseas Development Administration will be leading for the Government at the Cairo conference. I am afraid that I cannot agree with my hon. Friend on the question of a target for population matters in the aid programme, although I congratulate him on his interest and on pressing the point. We are not happy with financial targets, but the Government are happy and the Department is keen to have targets for the number of countries and for the projects that we can initiate in the next two years. We hope to have 15 projects over two years and to double the number of countries involved.

In view of the alarming forecast given at the Rio summit of the trends in world population growth and their effect on the environment, should not these policies have a much higher priority in the Government's budget at home and abroad?

Of course, rapid population growth of the type to which the right hon. Gentleman refers will cause environmental problems, but the links between population growth and the environment are complex. The ODA is funding research to enhance understanding of that subject.

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

We have a statement. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I can hear his point of order after that.