To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to use Cardiff Wales airport in the course of his ministerial duties.

I last used Cardiff Wales airport on 8 September. I have no current plans to use it in the near future, but I will use it whenever my ministerial duties so require. I and my hon. Friends are keen to promote it as a good airport, and to see it as an important part of the south Wales economy.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the services to Europe, and in particular to Germany, from Cardiff Wales airport are abysmal? Manufacturing firms in my constituency and throughout south Wales, increasingly require to get their executives and technicians to places such as Frankfurt and Dusseldorf and back in a day. That cannot be done at present. Will the Secretary of State spend his Department's time and resources to establish a daily return flight, five days a week, from Cardiff to Frankfurt?

I am very keen to promote Cardiff Wales airport. I shall organise a meeting with business users and airlines to bring them together and to get more business through the airport. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State was recently on the inaugural flight of the new service to Manchester. The Cardiff Wales airport needs more publicity and the right hon. Gentleman might think it a good idea to use the airport as neutral ground on which the Labour party ladies can get together and settle their differences. That would be newsworthy and promote the airport.

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Cardiff Wales airport on its profits last year? Bearing in mind that those profits represent a return of only 1 per cent. on capital for the taxpayer, does my right hon. Friend agree that now is the time to consider privatising Cardiff Wales airport?

As my hon. Friend says, things have been moving in the right direction. I was pleased that the number of passengers using the airport increased by 50 per cent. last year to 900,000 and that the airport is in the black. We will look at all the options for the future of the airport. Anything that will increase business and make the airport a better asset for the people of south Wales will be high on my agenda.

The Secretary of State will realise, or will have been informed, that Cardiff Wales airport was set up by a consortium of local authorities, and funded and paid for by the people of south Wales, not by Her Majesty's Government. Is not the proposition that the airport might be privatised another example of the Secretary of State's skulduggery and thuggery whenever he embarks on privatisation? He has no right to privatise an asset that does not belong to the Welsh Office. The airport belongs to the people of south Wales, who have invested money in it over many years, and there is a great deal of anger about the proposition to steal private property yet again.

Were we to decide to privatise the airport, the money would not be lost to the people of Wales. The hon. Gentleman might learn something of value were he to look at the great success that other airports in the United Kingdom have had since being privatised. Privatisation is an option at the moment, not a confirmed policy. I intend to consult and think about it before announcing such a policy.

When my right hon. Friend uses Cardiff Wales airport, will he take great care to avoid the harridans who have a tendency to prey on the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies)?

I will, indeed, try to avoid those harridans. My hon. Friend has raised an interesting point about the in-fighting in the Welsh Labour party among its female members. I am delighted to note that the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench, has been a beneficiary of the strange voting practices and received a better vote this year. I think that he owes that to the Welsh Labour party ladies.

Does the Secretary of State agree that Cardiff Wales airport is a successful and profitable enterprise, which is a credit to its municipal parents, the three county councils of Glamorgan? Would he also like to reassure the employees at that airport that he does not propose to place it in the hands of one of those funny-money residuary bodies run by the usual Tory placemen from central casting and Central Office? Their action, in making a forced sale of that airport, would undoubtedly cost many millions of pounds in lower receipts to the Glamorgan ratepayers who set up that airport.

I shall look at all the options for the future of that airport with the single question in mind as to what would be best for the south Wales economy. I agree with the Opposition that the airport is important to that economy. We need to increase services out of the airport in order to service the business community and other passengers. That would be my intention and there are a number of ways in which that may be pursued. My immediate task is to try to win more business for the airport in the way that I have already described.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were recognised as homeless in Cardiff and Wales at the last date for which figures are available.

The figures are 671 and 2,703 respectively.

I do not know where the Minister got those figures, because I am informed that Cardiff city council had to cope with 2,700 inquiries on homelessness last year, which represents a 26 per cent. increase on the previous year. In the past six months, the number of inquiries has increased by a further 12 per cent. What extra help will the Welsh Office give to local authorities such as Cardiff to cope with the huge number of homeless, which has increased as a result of Government policy?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is that the figure of 671 came from Cardiff city council and the figure relating to Wales came from the other Welsh local authorities. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that we have supported a project worth £800,000 specifically designed to try to help single, vulnerable, homeless people in Cardiff. I attended the launch of that project a while ago and I went to see one of the new homes provided by it, which was, incidentally, in the hon. Gentleman's constituency.

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the majority of cases of homelessness are attributable to family breakdowns and to disputes between relatives, parents and the like? Those cases represent the big increase in homelessness to which reference has been made and which is recorded in the figures that have been produced by the Welsh Office, on the basis of information provided by Welsh local authorities.

My hon. Friend is correct. It is important to keep those figures in perspective. Of all local authority lettings and housing association lettings, only approximately 25 per cent. are taken by homeless people.

Bearing in mind the evidence that homelessness is increasing in Welsh rural areas as well as in the urban areas, does the Minister agree that it would be quite unacceptable if Government funding for Tai Cymru —Housing for Wales—were the victim of public expenditure cuts?

I acknowledge the question that the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised and the importance of funding for Housing for Wales will be given the fullest consideration.

Is the Minister aware that of the 6,000 homeless cases involving children and/or pregnancies in Wales last year, only 500 involved pregnant single mothers, and of those only 47 were allotted permanent accommodation? In those circumstances, is not the Welsh Office going over the top in drawing attention to the plight of those people, rather than that of the 99 per cent. of homeless who do not fall into that category and who experience enormous difficulties in trying to find somewhere to live?

No, Madam Speaker. The Welsh Office is certainly not going over the top on that issue. In the interests of all the genuine cases who need housing, it is right that there should not be any unjustified fast track approach to obtaining either council accommodation or housing association accommodation.

Does the Minister agree that he should go back to Cardiff city council to check his figures, since the total number of inquiries from homeless families in that city is nearly 3,000 and nearly 1,200 people were housed in temporary accommodation over the past year? Does he accept that a vital ingredient of family stability is a permanent home and cannot he see that the release of council capital receipts to build homes for thousands of homeless people in Wales is worth more than 100 moralising speeches about single parents?

As I said to the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Jones) the figures quoted were given to us by Welsh local councils, especially by Cardiff city council. I know of no money sitting idly not being used effectively for debt redemption. If there were any such moneys sitting idly, I would look to the councillors to pursue that situation energetically and if they failed to act, I would look to the local electors to show their disapproval at the earliest opportunity.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what response he has made to the pamphlet, "The Politics of Poverty in Blaenau Gwent", a copy of which was sent to him in September.

I saw the pamphlet for the first time today and, like much Labour policy-making, it is long on gloom and doom and short on decent remedies. The best way of curing poverty is to create more jobs. That is why on 20 October I published details of the new five-year programme for the valleys to regenerate Blaenau Gwent and the other valley communities.

Is the Minister aware, especially after reading the pamphlet today, that, after 14 years of Tory Government, Blaenau Gwent still has one of the worst health problems in the United Kingdom? Is he also aware that in the past week, phase 1 of the Blaenau Gwent hospital commenced and that the commitment was given that phase 2 will commence in 1995? Will he reinforce that commitment and assure the House that the second phase will include a stroke unit? Is the Minister aware that the document was sent to the Welsh Office some 28 days ago and does it not say something about the operations of the Welsh Office that it has come into his hands only today?

I am told that the pamphlet was not addressed to me so it was perfectly proper that it did not go straight to my desk. I have now read it, but, as I said to the hon. Gentleman, we have a big programme for rejuvenating and regenerating the valleys. I hope that he joins me in welcoming Sega as a new investor in Wales, through its links with AB Electronics and the 50 new jobs that that will generate at Abercynon. I hope that he welcomes the Treforest news of STNP creating 129 new jobs as well as 755 new jobs at Tesco. That is what matters —producing new jobs for the valleys, which the hon. Gentleman is asking for in his pamphlet.

None of that is of any relevance whatever to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith). Is not it clear from his report that, in 1993, a previously unreported depth of poverty and deprivation that arises directly from unemployment and low pay exists in Wales. It is the direct responsibility of the Government and it is an absolute disgrace after 14 years in office. My hon. Friend should be congratulated on his report rather than criticism being thrown against him. Does not the Secretary of State realise that we need more positive action on jobs and low pay and more investment in housing, health and education? Is not it time that the Tory party started facing up to its responsibilities, rather than indulging in the hypocritical moralising of other people?

The hon. Gentleman will not find me unwilling to accept responsibilities. I have set out in the valleys initiative the Government's major expenditure programmes for the next five years. They are geared to bringing in a lot more private sector investment as well, which is what the valleys require. The programme was very successful during its first five years and the number of long-term unemployed fell importantly and dramatically. I accept that much more needs to be done; I have never made any secret of that. The hon. Gentleman should listen and should read the valleys programme initiative because he will see there a bold vision of the future for a better south Wales, based on more jobs, more prosperity and more investment, which I hope that the Opposition welcome.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives he has taken to encourage the promotion of Welsh beef for consumption overseas.

Welsh Food Promotions Ltd. was set up more than two years ago with a remit to promote all types of food produced in Wales, including beef. The company works closely with Food from Britain in promoting overseas sales.

My right hon. Friend will be aware of the excellent taste and unique quality of Welsh black cattle. Is he equally aware of the grievous losses suffered by the breeders of Welsh black cattle since the imposition of the ban on exports because of the bovine spongiform encephalopathy scare? Is he aware that Welsh black cattle are fed on natural sources, such as silage in winter and grain in summer? Is he further aware that BSE exists anyway in continental Europe? What can my right hon. Friend do to promote the export of Welsh black cattle to Europe as a valuable earner of deutschmarks?

Of course, I am aware of the difficulties that the restrictions on exporting cattle, put into place as a result of BSE, have brought for many producers, and I sympathise with their position. However, the prohibition on the export of live cattle over six months old applies to all breeds of cattle and as Welsh blacks are among the breed types that have had confirmed cases of BSE, we are not likely to be able to advance the case for special treatment for that breed alone. Although a few cases of BSE have been confirmed in some member states, they are all isolated cases which are linked to feedstuffs imported from the United Kingdom. Exports to other member states are likely to remain restricted for some time yet.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much money has been allocated by his Department to promote energy efficiency within housing in Wales in each of the last five years.

It is for local councils to decide how much of the money that is given to them is allocated to energy efficiency schemes for housing.

That is a disappointing response. I hope that, following the remarkable rally on Saturday in Cardiff by Friends of the Earth, the Minister recognises that there is now a formidable coalition in favour of energy efficiency, from social and environmental groups that see the issue as not only addressing the problem of pollution, but enabling people to bring about reductions of as much as 30 per cent. in their fuel bills, while providing important savings in other areas. Will the Minister now join me in congratulating neighbourhood energy action and its contractors on its excellent work? Does he agree that there needs to be a comprehensive programme in the area, which should be a central issue of economic policy as a way in which to bring it to fruition?

I should thank the hon. Gentleman for effectively endorsing the lead that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave at the Earth summit in Rio. It behoves all of us to achieve energy efficiency, in the interests of Britain and of the globe generally.

Rather than putting VAT on fuel and causing hypothermia among elderly people in the winter, why do not the Government introduce a comprehensive home insulation programme? It would have a rapid payback, in perhaps four or five years, and it would help to keep people warm in the winter rather than cause hardship.

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are already seeking to carry out such a programme. In our estates partnership programme, it is a requirement that energy efficiency should be considered. Housing for Wales is this week publishing a new consultation document which looks for improved energy efficiency schemes in housing association developments.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new proposals he has to safeguard jobs in Wales.

The way in which to safeguard jobs is to ensure a steady economic recovery and sustainable growth. Our strategy—low inflation and sound public finances—does just that. We are also pressing ahead with our policies on deregulation, on encouraging enterprise, and on fighting for open and competitive markets.

Why is the Welsh Office standing by watching so many winning Welsh teams being wrecked? I refer, for example, to the jobs in the brilliantly successful Du Pont group in Pontypool. The Patent Office in Newport is under threat although it has just been awarded a chartermark. Does not the Minister realise that many of the regional policy successes are likely to be destroyed by the Government's mania for privatising everything? Will he give a guarantee today that if privatisation goes ahead, none of the jobs that have come to Wales, such as those at DVOIT in Swansea, the Accounts Services Agency and the Patent Office, will be relocated outside Wales?

The hon. Gentleman is aware that his question about the Patent Office in his constituency is a matter for the Department of Trade and Industry and for the President of the Board of Trade. The hon. Gentleman talked about getting rid of jobs. He did not mention all the jobs that have come into Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked of today's announcement from Sega. Over the past few weeks, we have had announcements about Hamilton Oil at Connah's Quay in north Wales, and further jobs created by Asat and Aiwa in south Wales.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best things that the Government can do to safeguard jobs in Wales is to continue the polices of promoting the right economic climate, which have been so successful in promoting existing businesses as well as attracting new business opportunities?

My hon. Friend is quite right and I am reminded that Wales continues to get 20 per cent. of the United Kingdom's inward investment. It is worth remembering also that some 40 per cent. of European investment from outside Europe comes in to the United Kingdom. Our job is to continue that good work and to support the companies that have come here. I am delighted to say that we are doing that through the export missions that we are leading abroad.

Will the Minister look with great care at the special problems of the construction industry in Wales, which is now flat on its back and has many jobs haemorrhaging? Surely that industry is heavily dependent on the public sector. Is there not a real danger that, in the Budget, there will be a twofold pressure on the construction industry, both from national ordering and local government ordering as a result of the pressure on local government expenditure? Will he look at the problems of the construction industry, which can create or destroy so many jobs?

The hon. Gentleman realises only too well that a considerable public sector capital programme exists in Wales. One of the areas for which I am responsible—roads in Wales—is running at a record level of some £200 million a year. Like the Chancellor, I am in the Budget purdah, but I am sure that, unlike the Labour party in the 1970s, we shall seek to protect capital spending even if it means cutting revenue spending.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that inward investment in Wales would be killed if we introduced a national minimum wage or signed the social charter? Is not it significant that those who seek to sell Wales short will destroy the Welsh economy by the restrictions that they suggest?

The Government are accustomed to hearing Opposition right hon. and hon. Members run down Wales. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On the one hand, they complain about wage levels in Wales, even though since 1990 wage levels in Wales have been rising at a faster rate than in the rest of Great Britain. At the same time, they argue for the minimum wage, which would certainly be a cause of increased unemployment in Wales.

Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors have failed hopelessly to safeguard jobs in the south Wales coal mining industry? There are no pits or jobs left in communities such as mine, which has resulted in 40 per cent. of men being either out of work or economically inactive. What new initiative does he have to create male jobs and male employment? The right hon. Gentleman should not just wave glossy brochures, which do not contain a new initiative in that respect.

Before the hon. Gentleman denigrates the valleys initiative, he should remember that, were it not for that initiative in 1988, we should be 10,000 jobs the poorer in south Wales. He must understand that the programme, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has just extended, means £1 billion of investment in the south Welsh valleys. That will improve the quality of life for the people of the valleys and bring in new jobs.

That is an untrue and utterly outrageous claim. In every travel-to-work area in the region covered by the valleys initiative, unemployment rose during the time of that initiative.

"in the European Community, a single currency would be bad news."

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State can safeguard himself as well as his job.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what criteria he proposes to adopt to identify specialist cereal growers for the purposes of the cereals regime in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I announced on Friday the arrangements that I propose for 1993–94—a division into two regions based on land suitability for growing winter cereals, and cropping patterns in the 1989–91 growing years.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that announcement, but the criteria are complex. Why could he not have approached the matter on the basis of simply identifying individual farms?

The European Community regulation does not permit us to single out individual specialist growers or farms for support. I hope that when my hon. Friend studies the detail he will see that we have endeavoured to produce the right answers on covering specialist growers in the map that we sketched. As my hon. Friend will have noticed, we are out to consultation on the thrust of the matter of the proposals, so if he has a hard case or a difficulty, I hope that he will make his representations either to me or to the Welsh divisional office, which will be only too willing to help his farmers or those in the constituencies of other hon. Members.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the latest report from the Local Government Commissioner; and if he will make a statement.

None.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the ombudsman's report contains 10 pages of criticism of maladministration by council housing departments? Does he agree that the Government have done more than any Government to boost private home ownership? Is he further aware that the Opposition now have a policy document saying that the private rented sector badly needs a boost?

I acknowledge my hon. Friend's point about the Opposition's deathbed conversion to the importance of the private rented sector. Equally, I acknowledge what my hon. Friend said about bad practice in Welsh local authorities. We have been concerned about that for some time. In our agenda for action on housing, we gave a strong warning against political interference, and earlier this year we embarked on a consultation exercise into the housing allocation policies of all councils. We are now considering the replies to that exercise.

If only to safeguard the future of local government, will the Minister sack the inspector who awarded costs against Newport borough council for refusing permission to the American concern Browning Ferris for another waste disposal plant? Will he appreciate that the commissar-like attitude is alien to our democratic traditions in Wales and that the elected councillors were only acting in line with the wishes of the electors?

Matters such as that referred to by the hon. Gentleman would be considered in the proper quarters. The inspectors are charged with carrying out inquiries, and they do so to the best of their abilities.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the report of the local government commissioners illustrates the way in which national institutions are exposing wrongdoing, even by elected local government councillors? Does my hon. Friend also think that the report, touching as it does on one of the local authorities in my local area and on authorities represented by Opposition Members, demonstrates the need for the Government to deal urgently with the issue of housing allocation?

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. He is right in saying that Parliament gives scrutiny to that which needs to be scrutinised. A most amusing suggestion which I saw recently was that some examples underline the importance of having a parliament for Wales. I thought that that was really saying that the Opposition is totally ineffective in scrutiny.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the leaders of local government in Wales to discuss EC matters; and what issues were raised.

I last met leaders of local government on 31 October, when I discussed with them structural funds issues and EC initiatives generally.

In those discussions, did the local government leaders point out that more than £45 million of European regional development fund money will be lost to local authorities because of the capping policies of the Welsh Office and the Government? Will the Welsh Office and the Secretary of State now take action to revise the rules to enable local authorities in Wales to utilise fully the money available from Europe for economic and industrial regeneration?

I am keen to see that local authorities take the maximum advantage; that is why we changed the system and made it transparent. We have made the credit approvals available for those projects which go ahead. I am working closely with local government to see that it gets the maximum benefit from the system.

Has the Secretary of State received queries from local government about European moneys for next year's roads budget for Wales? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure me that the multi-million pound River Dee crossing scheme will begin next April as promised and that the great road project will not fall victim to the Chancellor's axe in terms of spending next year? Does he appreciate that the building of the crossing is urgently needed on Deeside?

I understand that need and I will do the best that I can when I put together the Budget for Wales following the Chancellor's statement. I will take the hon. Gentleman's representations fully into account. He will understand that I cannot give him a 100 per cent. guarantee on any item for next year because we have not yet completed the Budget process.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what was the average per capita income in the counties of Dyfed and Gwynedd in 1992 compared with (a) the Welsh average, (b) the United Kingdom average and (c) the European average in cash and percentage terms.

The latest available data are for 1990, using gross domestic product per head as the measure. For Dyfed, the per capita income was 13·6 per cent. below the Welsh average, 28·1 per cent. below the United Kingdom average and 27·6 per cent. below the EC average. The corresponding figures for Gwynedd were 1·3 per cent., 17·9 per cent. and 17·3 per cent., respectively.

The Minister's reply confirms my worst fears that Dyfed and Gwynedd are among the lowest areas in Europe. From the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman, it would appear that we have the highest levels of poverty and unemployment.

We should perhaps also bear it in mind that the cost of living in Wales may be rather lower than in other parts of the country. We should certainly bear it in mind that Wales is one of the most beautiful parts of Europe. I remind the hon. Gentleman of what I said earlier —that since April 1990, earnings have risen by some 21·2 per cent. in Wales compared with 20·4 per cent. in Great Britain. So we are making progress. Of course, it is very much in our interests and it is one of our ends and objectives to raise income levels in Wales.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners what submissions the Church Commissioners have had concerning proposed pay and allowances for bishops with extra-territorial jurisdiction; and if he will make a statement.

The Act of Synod will provide for the appointment of up to three new suffragan bishops to act as provincial episcopal visitors. Their remuneration will be the same as that of other suffragan bishops. Housing and a car will be provided and working expenses will be reimbursed.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that the Church Commissioners will bear in mind the great concern expressed by the House in last Friday's debate that priests and congregations committed to a male priesthood be properly looked after when females—ladies—are ordained as priests in a few months' time? Will he give an assurance that the Act of Synod measure which deals with the matter will give proper moral and real authority to those bishops committed to protecting those congregations and to serving them?

I am delighted that my hon. Friend has underscored the need for the co-called Act of Synod to have real teeth and real moral authority. I shall convey the anxiety that my hon. Friend has expressed to the General Synod when it meets at Church house next week to discuss the very point that my hon. Friend has raised. The Synod will underscore the need for an Act which is adequate. If it is not adequate, the House will insist that a Measure be brought before the House to create a statutory provision.

What action does the Estates Commission intend to take on the line in the Lambeth report about the scandalous loss of Church Commissioners' assets which said that the fastest growing area of expenditure was bishops' residences?

The bishops, led by the Archbishop of Canterbury, have launched a first diagnostic analysis of the funds and finances of the Church Commissioners. The New Testament utterance, "Physician, heal thyself, will be only too readily applied by those who have initiated this physicians' diagnosis.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners what is the policy of the Church Commissioners towards the investment of their funds in firms which trade on Sundays.

We believe that the law should be observed. We have expressed our concern to major retailing companies in which we invest and we shall continue to monitor developments.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of the retailing firms in which the Church Commissioners invest have indicated to their Members of Parliament, including myself, that their preference is for option 2—the proposals of the Sunday Shopping Hours Reform Council —which would allow larger shops to open for six hours and smaller ones to open all day? Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to bear that in mind and to convey the information that I have given the House today to the Church Commissioners?

I am delighted to hear from my hon. Friend that so large a number of retailers fall into the category that he has just designated. It is my hope and expectation that the group that he has specified will be able to co-ordinate that approach with the group that I personally support—the Keep Sunday Special group. I hope that, between us, we shall have a framework of law which offers full but generous and reasonable regulation for Sunday trading. Of course, the Church Commissioners are there to observe the law, not in any way to attempt to make it. We shall observe it through our shopping retail outlets as assiduously as possible as soon as the law is as clear as possible.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will make a statement on judicial appointments in Northern Ireland.

The Lord Chancellor is responsible for a wide range of judicial appointments in Northern Ireland. His policy is to appoint to each judicial post the candidate who appears to him to be best qualified regardless of gender, ethnic origin, political affiliation or religion.

I must ask the Minister for further assurances in this matter in view of a rather disturbing incident that I heard about recently whereby a Roman Catholic barrister practising in Northern Ireland was approached by an Irish civil servant—a civil servant in the employ of the Republic of Ireland—and asked if he would be interested in taking a specific judicial appointment. I hasten to add that the appointment was not one within the gift of the Lord Chancellor. In view of that incident, which was improper, I ask the Minister to be sure that there is no interference by the Irish Republic in judicial appointments at any level. Can he ensure that the merit principle is properly vindicated and that there is no dilution in the quality of the Northern Ireland judiciary for political considerations?

The hon. Gentleman takes me by surprise in this matter. He will not be surprised if I say that, not knowing, I have not been briefed, either. Now that he has put the matter in the public domain by raising it on the Floor of the House, if he wants to write to me indicating whatever terms—confidential or open—I will certainly look into it for him.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department how many magistrates are currently aged 25 years or less; and if he will make a statement.

The answer to my hon. Friend's question is none. It is rare for anyone below the age of 27 to be appointed. However, there is no bar to appointment, and a 26-year-old has recently been appointed.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the great gulf that seems to exist between young offenders and the magistracy, and that the best discipline in schools, in my long experience of schools, comes from that administered to children by their peers? They make the wisest and fairest decisions and ones that are most respected by other children. Does my hon. Friend agree that younger magistrates are needed to cope with the current problems of juvenile crime—and end the fuddy-duddy approach of some of the older magistrates and judges in this area? [Interruption.]

Clearly, the House is not of one mind on this subject. However, it may like some information. No figures are kept on the ages of appointment of magistrates, but a recent sample of 875 new appointments showed— this may surprise the House—that 22 per cent. were under 40, 33 per cent. between 40 and 45, 24 per cent. between 46 and 50, and 21 per cent. 51 and over. I found that evenness of spread quite healthy.

Does the Minister agree that what matters with the judiciary, whether magistrates or judges, is not age but whether they have ordinary common sense and administer justice properly? For example, the Lord Chancellor may have information on the age of Judge Prosser who saw fit to say that a well-known disease, repetitive strain injury, did not exist and should not be on the medical casebooks. Surely we could have some indication of the Lord Chancellor's approach to that sort of case, whatever the age of the judge or magistrate.

In the case of magistrates, I think that personal suitability is fairly well defined as good character and repute and the ability to command the confidence of both the public and colleagues. As for judges, which the question is not about, there are already arrangements under which unfit judges may retire on health grounds whatever their age. [HoN. MEMBERS: "RSI?"] Meanwhile, the Royal Commission has considered the appraisal of judges, and its recommendations will be considered in due course.

Is it not obvious that age and experience are important matters in the selection of judges, and that it cannot be for the confidence of the British people that young, inexperienced and immature magistrates are making judgments in serious matters? The Government's policy sounds sensible and intelligent—provided that a higher proportion of magistrates in the middle age range are selected.

I had already reached the same conclusion about the virtues of the Government as my hon. and learned Friend. I shall take account of what he says about maturity. Plainly, maturity and experience are qualities that should be sought, but we do not want a bench on which there is no younger representation.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what plans he has to issue guidance to courts on the effect of media coverage on trials.

The existing legislation on reporting of court proceedings is clear. I have no plans, nor has the Lord Chancellor, to issue guidance to the judiciary who, independent of the Government, apply the legislation for which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department has responsibility.

Is not the Minister missing the point? He must be aware of the case of the Taylor sisters who appealed successfully because of inaccurate media coverage. He will be aware of the police officers in the Birmingham Six case. Surely it is time to expect the media to report not only accurately but impartially between prosecution and defence so that press freedom is not sacrificed for wrongful conviction and vice versa.

I respect the hon. Gentleman for his past work in these areas and no doubt I shall respect his present and future work. He invites me to speak about the Birmingham Six police case. In many ways, that case was wholly exceptional. The decision was entirely for the trial judge. However, in staying the proceedings the judge held that the combination of delay, adverse publicity and the impossibility of isolating the very narrow prosecution case from the much wider matrix of events from 1975 was such as to render a fair trial impossible.

Is the Minister aware that there are severe restraints on academic examination of juries' attitudes, and that it would be helpful in considering this matter to have greater knowledge of how juries work and think? Will he look at the possibility of opening the work of juries to academic consideration?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. The deliberations on the Runciman report would provide exactly the right context in which to take the issue forward, as the hon. Gentleman would like to do.

My hon. Friend will have seen the coverage of the Austin Donellan case. Does he agree that in such cases the defendant should have the same right of anonymity, at least until proved guilty, as the victim of such crimes quite rightly deserves?

I am well aware of these arguments. I thank my hon. Friend for raising the matter and advise him that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department has asked his officials to undertake a review of the question of anonymity in rape cases and in other sexual cases and of the interests of both parties in such cases.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department if he will introduce measures for the election of judges.

The answer is no. The Government do not consider that elections would provide a suitable basis for appointment or be compatible with the principle of judicial independence.

The Government did not say that about trade union leaders, who they said were out of touch with their members and should be subject to re-election every five years. How else can we make judges accountable, especially in the light of what they have said recently about rape cases and repetitive strain injury—

Ask a question.

I have already asked two questions.

The hon. Gentleman may be surprised to find that I have an answer that may half oblige him—

Let us hear it then.

I am about to give the answer. The Royal Commission has considered the appraisal of judges and its recommendations will be deliberated upon. That represents some new thinking, which I believe will be welcome on both sides of the Chamber.

If we are to avoid the election of judges, is not the corollary that judges must show that they broadly respect both public policy and public opinion? Is it not unhelpful when two such leading figures as the Lord Chief Justice and the Master of the Rolls are in open disagreement about what the law should be? Should not the Lord Chancellor ask them to desist from such pronouncements?

There are conventions in the House about commenting on judges and what judges may say. Hon. Members may feel that this is an occasion on which to make such comments, but I am not sure that a member of the Executive should intrude into a matter of judicial independence.

While the Minister and his Department have responsibility for the appointment of judges, and at a time of record levels of public concern about crime and the commission or criminal offences, is it not worrying that one day last months 24 courts in the south-east of England were closed for want of work? At the same time, on one day at the beginning of last month at the Snaresbrook crown court, offences of conspiracy to supply heroin and cocaine and offences involving arson with intent to endanger life were not heard because of a shortage of judges—there being insufficient money to pay for recorders or assistant recorders. Is not the Minister's Department presiding over a rather bizarre position, and what does he intend to do about it?

It is not true that Crown courts are standing idle, although some sittings have been reduced to reflect the downturn in receipts for trial. Sittings will be restored later in the year if receipts increase. Sitting days have been reduced by only 2 per cent. compared with last year, despite a reduction in receipts of more than 15 per cent. in the first quarter of this year.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what plans he has to make freemasonry a publicly declarable interest for members of the judiciary; and if he will make a statement.

The Lord Chancellor has no plans to make freemasonry a publicly declarable interest for members of the judiciary.

Does the Minister agree that there is nothing more corrosive of public confidence in the judiciary than the knowledge that many judges and magistrates are members of a secret society, one of whose aims is mutual self-advancement?

I have answered a similar question from the hon. Gentleman in the past. The critical thing about the judge's appointment is that he takes a judicial oath. [HON. MEMBERS: "Or she."] I beg the House's pardon—or she.

To ask the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department what criteria are being adopted for the amalgamation of petty sessional divisions; and if he will make a statement.

The optimum size of a division would be one that permitted an average annual attendance for magistrates of between 35 and 40 sittings.

Will my hon. Friend reconsider his reply and emphasise much more significantly the importance of providing local courts for the convenience of local witnesses and local parties? The insistence on a certain number of sittings is a criterion which ignores the factor of convenience to the public.

The proposals that the Lord Chancellor has made are so far indicative only. Consultation will follow if a local view emerges which is held to be an improvement. I share with my hon. Friend, however, the opinion that the criteria for amalgamating petty sessional divisions are different from the criteria for the amalgamation of magistrates courts committee areas. He asked about the former and my earlier reply was about that.

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 2 and 3.

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek your guidance. During the passage of the Bill in Committee, 713 amendments and 32 new clauses were tabled. On report, we debated 252 amendments and 28 new clauses. We are now faced with another 470 Lords amendments and new clauses. Is there a parliamentary procedure to prevent the Government from tabling new amendments at this late stage and effectively changing their earlier promises?

Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. I am concerned about the matter. You must have seen the myriad amendments and new clauses that have been tabled. It makes me think that my service on the Standing Committee was a complete waste of time because we have a new Bill before us. Is there no way to send this botched job back to the Government draftsmen so that they can come up with something new that we can consider in detail, and in enough time? Effectively, we have a new Bill before us and only two days in which to consider it. It is a travesty of the rules of Parliament.

There is a great deal of responsibility on the Ministers whose task is to persuade the House to agree with the amendments. The ball is in their court.

I hope that the House will find several of the groups of amendments that we shall be considering today and tomorrow relatively uncontroversial, although I recognise that some are controversial. My noble Friend the Minister for Aviation and Shipping gave detailed explanations of many of the amendments and I hope that the House will have had the chance, to the extent necessary and prudent, to study his remarks.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. I do not believe what my ears are hearing. Is it customary for hon. Members to recommend that other hon. Members take as read speeches made in the other place? Is it not normal parliamentary procedure for Ministers to take responsibility for their own speeches, to move their own amendments and to do the House the elementary courtesy of at least trying to explain what they have in mind?

Ministers must make their own judgments.

I am just coming on to do that. I was trying, in a courteous manner, to refer to the proceedings in another place. I am only too delighted, as I had planned to do, to explain the purpose of the amendments.

"in which qualifying railway employees have a substantial interest, 'qualifying railway employees' meaning for this-purpose persons who are or have been employed in an undertaking which provides or provided the services to which the franchise agreement in question relates at a time before those services began to be provided under that franchise agreement."

I am beginning to find this even more "Alice in Wonderland" than I had expected. Will the Minister accept that it is the responsibility of the House of Commons to frame legislation in such a way that it is clear and that House votes on it on the basis of its meaning? I have always had the rather old-fashioned view that Parliament is here to examine clear English, to understand what it means and to take decisions based on that. Will the Minister explain why he is seriously suggesting that the House should accept wording that is so unclear that he automatically expects it to be challenged in a court?

The hon. Lady had time to table an appropriate amendment defining that in terms of 5, 10, 15 or 20 per cent.

I am not a Minister.

The Government prefer this more general language. One has to decide, in the particular circumstances of the case, what "a substantial interest" means. In part, it will depend on the capitalisation of the company. It is not possible to legislate precisely in all circumstances. It depends in part on the debt burden. As those on the Opposition Front Bench will appreciate, in past bus privatisations, the amount of debt incurred by the management and employees varied considerably. The substantiaal debt burden incurred by some is still being repaid from the profits of the operation. It is not possible to be precise in every circumstance.

Is the Minister telling the House that if British Rail employees —managers or workers—want to combine in a joint bid with both private and public sectors, a judgment will have to be made about the size of the interest? Is he leaving the courts—rather than the House—to decide whether that will be 5, 10, 15, 20 or 50 per cent.? Taking into account the Government's other view—that British Rail will be allowed to make a bid for a franchise and could do so at a cheaper price than that being offered by the private sector—will that not encourage the private sector to get into bed with one or two employees so as to offer a cheaper price and make its bid seem like a British Rail bid?

It might help if I explain that the Government have not reached any conclusions, or made any announcements, about any price reference to management-employee buy-out bids for franchises. The hon. Gentleman will recall that in Standing Committee I made it plain that our policy in relation to the outright sale of freight, whether train load or container business, was that it was appropriate for a small premium to be afforded to the management-employee bids, consistent with the preferences given in the sale of bus companies. That is normally expressed in terms of a discount.

A cheaper price.

Yes, but we are not applying that principle to the bidding for franchises. As I made clear in the Standing Committee, there is a distinction between franchises and bids for discrete businesses of British Rail which it will sell.

If the Minister looks at the wording of the amendment, he will see that a duty is imposed on the Secretary of State to promote the award of franchises to bids which involve former employees of British Rail. If the Government are to promote in that way, that must mean that some competitive advantage will be given to such a bid.

We are not discussing the process for the bidding for franchises. The hon. Gentleman knows that that subject will be dealt with in the debate on a grouping of amendments in due course. We are talking about a general duty that is placed on the Secretary of State to promote management and employee buy outs—

That is the point.

Perhaps I could help the Minister.

I am well capable of helping myself, thank you very much.

It does not seem so.

Perhaps I could explain. I have dealt with the price preference, but there is another way in which management and employee bids can be assisted. That is in terms of the financial assistance which is to be provided by British Rail, and which is limited to a sum of £100,000 in each particular management and employee bidding group, in preparing for bidding for franchises. That is a clear example, and I am not talking about the price preference in the context of the 5 per cent. discount that has been applied in the past for bids for bus companies.

The Minister seems to be floundering—that is unusual for the hon. Gentleman—on the clear piece of legislation contained in the clause.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will raise that matter during his speech, at which time I will seek to answer it.

The Minister referred to a management buy-out in the West midlands. He will be aware that I was involved in a similar buy-out in West Yorkshire.