To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent assessment he has made of the mortality incidence of breast cancer in Wales relative to the rest of the United Kingdom. [14156]

Mortality from breast cancer in Wales is higher than in other parts of the United Kingdom, which may be partly a reflection of the higher incidence of the disease in Wales. Overall mortality from breast cancer in Wales fell by nearly 10 per cent. between 1988 and 1994, a rate of decline slightly greater than the UK average.

Why are lower targets being set in Wales than in England for a reduction in the incidence of mortality? Why are Welsh women expected to take second best? Before the Minister answers, since Scott has demonstrated that the Conservative party is in the business of giving misleading and inaccurate answers, can he tell us whether he is telling the whole truth, part of the truth or his version of the truth?

The hon. Lady has not lost her talent for being offensive. In Wales, the target is to reduce the breast cancer death rate in the screened age group—the group aged 50 to 64—by at least 25 per cent. by 2000. Ladies in Wales are not regarded as second best to ladies in England.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has had from local authorities in Wales concerning the level of revenue support grant proposed for the new unitary authorities. [14157]

Several. My proposals for the 1996–97 local government revenue settlement were approved by the House on 8 February.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the figures of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy show that the Clwyd county council area has lost roughly 400 teachers in the past three years and that, in that time, the number of pupils has increased by 700? That must mean larger class sizes. The level of revenue support grant means that the new unitary authorities in Clwyd are expected to fund teachers' pay by efficiency savings. That has to mean another cut and fewer teachers. What does the Secretary of State want to say to parents of my area, whose children will be taught in even bigger classes from April?

Central Government support for local government spending is £864 per head in Wales, which is £132 per head higher than in England. When local authorities complain about that settlement, council tax payers and parents should ask themselves, "Is every penny spent by the council spent wisely?" and, "Are all the things that local government spends money on necessary?" It is the right settlement and a generous one. It was approved by the House by a majority of 72 votes on 8 February and the hon. Gentleman did not even vote against it.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if the Opposition think that the revenue support grant is insufficient, the onus is on them to say how much it ought to be and where they would get the money from?

Yes. There has been a notable silence from the Opposition Front Bench on that subject. They have been unable to say whether they think that the local government settlement should be higher, lower, a bit higher or a lot higher and they refused to say so throughout our debate on the subject two weeks ago. It is time that they came clean about their policy, instead of pretending to the voters that they would spend more but wanting to say in the House that they would not spend more at all.

When considering the representations, how will the Secretary of State deal with the shortfall of more than £500,000 in the education budget in Powys caused by the decision of 200 to 300 16-year-olds to return to school rather than go to the local further education college? Will he ensure that the money that would have followed them to the college follows them back to their schools, so that they really have a choice about where to be educated?

I do not think that it is possible to adjust budgets for local government and for the Further Education Funding Council on the basis of decisions made in each area. It is up to local authorities to manage the resources that are available to them, to use them as efficiently as possible and to serve the interests of their local residents as best as they can.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that council tax levels in Wales are 40 per cent. lower than they are in England, which represents a very good deal for the people of Wales? Notwithstanding that fact, does he agree that education in Wales is in good heart and in good condition, which we should welcome, and that we should be congratulating teachers in Wales rather than decrying their efforts?

My hon. Friend is right that council tax levels in Wales are substantially lower than those in England. As he said, in recent years there have been marked improvements in education in Wales, as last week's report of our chief inspector of schools demonstrated. There is further work to be done, and the Government have a wide-ranging programme of initiatives to continue to raise standards in education in the coming years.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that his own parliamentary answers show that revenue support grant has been reduced as a proportion of local government spending? Will he further confirm—again from statistics issued by his office—that local education authorities have reduced their administrative costs, despite which class sizes have increased, and that, under this year's settlement, central Government support for local government will reduce, as a result of which most local authorities in Wales expect to make cuts of approximately 3 per cent. in their education budgets, let alone in any of their other budgets? Why will not the Secretary of State do something positive to provide the resources to help teachers and local authorities, who are doing a good job against all the odds—and in spite of the Government?

The figures show that, in the current year, the Government will provide 88.6 per cent. of local government total standard spending whereas in the coming year they will provide 87.8 per cent., which is a change of 0.8 per cent. If the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues object to that, it is incumbent on them to say what they think the percentage should be. I hand it to the hon. Gentleman because, in the debate 11 days ago, when the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones), asked him whether he would spend more on education, alone among Labour Front Benchers, he said, "Yes." We now wait to hear from him how much that amount would be.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment his Department has made of the effect a single European currency will have on the Welsh economy. [14158]

None.

That is the most astonishing answer. The Secretary of State for Wales has made no assessment whatsoever of the largest potential economic change that we can recall being predicted in recent times, which may occur no more than three years from now. The Secretary of State, with all his resources in the Welsh Office, has made no assessment. Is that because he has no interest in Wales, or is it because he wants to ensure that there is no extra room for argument on the Conservative Benches on that most vital issue?

It is because this country has a choice about a single currency, thanks to the opt-out negotiated at Maastricht by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. We will exercise that choice if or when the occasion arises. Any assessment of the benefits or otherwise would have to take into account the particular interests of Wales. As the United Kingdom has one currency, any decision would have to be based on the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole.

Is not it a remarkable tribute to the economic management of this country that it is one of the few that could meet the convergence criteria? Our unemployment is falling, whereas it is increasing in other countries as they try to meet those criteria. Is not it clear that Conservative Members are safe on Europe, and that uncertainty results from the readiness of Opposition Members to sign anything that comes out of Brussels?

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I sometimes get the impression that Opposition Members would sign any piece of paper that floated across the English channel. He is also right to say that we now face extraordinarily good economic circumstances—the best economic circumstances and prospects that we have had for a generation. Unemployment in Wales fell again last week—it did so by more than 1,000—and that record will continue as long as the Government are in office to pursue the policies that have achieved it.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of Welsh local government to discuss the administration effects of the changeover to unitary authorities on 1 April. [14159]

Last Thursday, when I met the hon. Gentleman and representatives of his local authority.

As we are now six weeks away from vesting day for the new unitary authorities, does the Minister agree that it is vital to ensure that—by that time, former—county council services, such as education and social services, are properly safeguarded? Will he therefore ensure that groups such as county youth orchestras and drama groups such as Gwent theatre in education are properly protected by a sound system of joint arrangements?

As the hon. Gentleman will know, decisions on local functions can be taken only by local authorities themselves in the light of local circumstances and priorities. Our reform legislation contained a unique feature—a service delivery plan that had to be published in draft form last November and that will be finalised for each of the 22 new unitary authorities in Wales. That unique step enables everyone to see what provision is being made by local authorities. I hope that as many people as possible will take the opportunity to comment on the plans.

Will the Secretary of State discuss those issues with the civic leaders of Wales when he is guest of honour at their annual civic dinner in Cardiff next month? Will he confirm that that is the same civic dinner as he attacked on 8 February, producing an extraordinary report in the Western Mail on 9 February? Is it not an example of the Government's hypocrisy—or should I say duplicitousness—to attack a civil dinner in February and be its guest of honour in March? Is that not an example of dine as I say, not dine as I do?

The hon. Gentleman asked two questions. The answer to the first is that my right hon. Friend always welcomes any occasion to have meaningful discussions with local authorities. The answer to the second is no—the hon. Gentleman should read Hansard.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the number of areas of countryside which have been developed for (a) industrial and (b) other use in each of the past five years; and if he will make a statement. [14160]

Reliable information on the take-up of land in Wales is not available.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that 15,000 acres have been reclaimed at 900 sites since the Welsh Development Agency was established and that work on a further 100 sites is in hand? Would it not be tragic for Wales and for the whole of Britain if the Pembroke coast was allowed to be disfigured by the oil spillage in recent days from a tanker that ought to have been double-hulled? Will he give an undertaking to the House to do all that he can to ensure that marine life is secured, that beaches are cleaned as thoroughly and as soon as possible and that birdlife is safeguarded?

The Welsh Development Agency's land reclamation programme is the largest landscape improvement programme in Europe. Since its formation in 1976, the agency has reclaimed more than 15,000 acres at 900 sites and work has started on a further 100 sites. I share my hon. Friend's concern about what has happened at Milford Haven. We all want to ensure that everything possible is done there and I am advised that all the necessary manpower and materials are available to meet present needs.

Why has the Welsh Office dragged its heels so terribly over the out-of-town shopping planning policy guidance? It has been enforced in England by the Department of the Environment for the past 18 months, but the Welsh Office is still playing around with it. Meanwhile, our town centres are being run down and virgin land is being used to build out-of-town shopping malls to the detriment of everyone in Wales. The Welsh Office should get its act together.

The hon. Gentleman creates a good soundbite, but once again he is not right. There has been no dragging of heels. He will know that we have a draft planning policy guidance and that we are now considering all the responses to it. The draft guidance lays out, very simply, the sequential approach to retailing in Wales. First, consideration should be given to town centres and only then should consideration be given to out-of-town locations.

I am disappointed that the Secretary of State chose not to answer this question—he must have known that a question about the Sea Empress would arise. The Opposition are concerned about the potential consequences of the incident to which the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) referred. There is a unique and precious assemblage of bird, sea mammal and marine life in the area affected by the Sea Empress incident. The Pembrokeshire cliffs are a candidate for special protection area status. Skomer is a marine nature reserve. The coast to the east of St. Anne's head is a possible European special area of conservation, as are the islands of Skokholm, Skomer and Grassholm.

Order. The hon. Gentleman must ask a question, not make a statement.

Given that the whole coast is a priceless part of our national heritage, which good fortune has so far protected, will the Minister convey to the Secretary of State the great concern of the Opposition and ensure that the official view of the Welsh Office is that there has to be the fullest possible public inquiry?

I have no need to convey that concern to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State because the hon. Gentleman only echoes what my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) has already voiced. We all have the same anxieties about what has happened. The concern of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is amply demonstrated by the fact that, as soon as he heard about the incident, he changed his diary so as to be able to visit Milford Haven straight away on Friday morning to see for himself. Calling for a public inquiry at this stage is, at best, premature. The Department of Transport's marine accident investigation branch will investigate and report.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about inward investment levels. [14163]

Inward investment into Wales continues at high levels and I expect this trend to continue. Already this financial year, almost 8,000 new and safeguarded jobs have been promised with associated capital investment of almost £600 million.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that, if this country were to sign up to the social chapter or adopt a national minimum wage or a Welsh Assembly, which would make Wales an over-governed country, inward investment would dry up?

I fear that my hon. Friend is right. What attracts companies to the United Kingdom, and to Wales in particular, is good industrial relations, lower tax on companies and less regulation than in other parts of Europe. None of those would obtain if the Labour party was in power.

If inward investment has been so effective under the Government, can the Secretary of State explain why, according to the Library, since the Government came to power in May 1979, we have lost 500 million days through unemployment? Will he comment on the likely effect of those lost days on the economy and on the individuals and families who have been destroyed by it in communities such as mine in Blaenau Gwent?

Over the past 18 months, unemployment in Wales has been at or around the United Kingdom average. We are the first Government since the 1920s to be able to say that. What is more, unemployment in Wales is lower than it is in Italy, France and Spain and our major international competitors across Europe. It is continuing to fall and it will continue to fall if we maintain our present policies.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one reason for that high level of inward investment is the cultural facilities offered in Wales? If so, would he take a sympathetic look at the future funding of Theatr Clwyd in Mold when the new authorities come into being?

I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that, 11 days ago, I announced that the Government would be prepared to write off the £1.3 million debts of Theatr Clwyd if local authorities would guarantee that it would continue to run as at present for the foreseeable future. I am pleased that, since then, the Arts Council of Wales has announced additional help for the theatre and I hope that its future can be secured.

Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating the Labour-controlled Merthyr borough council and the Labour-created Welsh Development Agency on their recent success in bringing the Halla investment to Merthyr Tydfil? Will he confirm that, since the last general election, total inward investment in Wales up to and including the current financial year has fallen by 40 per cent.? Does he agree that at least part of that fall is due to the Welsh Office's failure to fund the Welsh Development Agency properly, its failure to support local authority initiatives, its failure to secure available European Union investment and its failure to protect our development area status? Would the Secretary of State like to set an example to some of his less fastidious colleagues and admit to some responsibility for the consequences of his Department's policies?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Wales has done well to maintain a high level of inward investment against increased competition from the rest of the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe. I join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating the Merthyr Tydfil council and other local authorities which have helped to attract inward investment. It is a team effort, involving local authorities, the Welsh Development Agency and my colleagues and me in the Welsh Office—as did the investment by Halla Industries of Korea, with which I had three meetings when I visited Korea last September. It is a team effort involving all of those people, and it is clearly working.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he is taking to promote the use of information technology in Welsh schools. [14164]

In the current financial year, we are providing grants totalling up to £2.7 million to support the acquisition and greater use of information technology in primary and secondary schools. A further £3 million will be available in the next financial year. On top of that, I have just announced the latest stage of our £3 million initiative to equip more than 1,600 primary and special schools in Wales with multi-media hardware and software, or portable computers and the training to go with them.

Has not the Welsh Office done a single-manufacturer deal to supply that information technology equipment to Welsh schools? Will that mean that schools will not have any choice about which IT equipment they purchase? Is that not another example of a Tory central Government dictatorship?

The Welsh Office steering group decided what equipment would be chosen and that group comprised representatives of Her Majesty's chief inspector's office and local education authorities. As to choice, all primary schools in Wales were asked whether they wanted a multi-media suite or a portable computer. The hon. Lady may shake her head, but if she listens she will learn something. Some 93 per cent. of schools chose the multi-media suite over the portable computer, and that is what they will receive.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the contribution of section 4 grants to tourism in Wales. [14165]

In 1994–95, the Wales tourist board approved grants of £3.6 million, which secures capital investment of £20.7 million, and that should save or maintain more than 400 jobs.

Does my hon. Friend agree that section 4 grants in Wales represent extremely good value for money, particularly as they create jobs? Can he confirm the figure that was recently quoted to me by the Wales tourist board—that as little as £6,000 in public money is required to create a new job in the tourism industry in Wales? What does my hon. Friend think would have a greater impact on Welsh tourism: the rugby World cup or a national minimum wage?

I agree with my hon. Friend that the grants available through the Wales tourist board are a very effective use of taxpayers' money in taking forward an important segment of the Welsh economy. Tourism contributes about £1.3 billion a year to the Welsh economy. As to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I rush to agree with his premise that the rugby World cup will prove a great advantage to Wales—not least because of the excellent way in which the Welsh team played on Saturday. They did not deserve to lose by two points. The rugby World cup will provide very positive opportunities for Wales—unlike the job-destroying measures that the Labour party would impose.

Does the Under-Secretary accept that the Sea Empress incident has caused great concern to the tourism industry in Pembrokeshire and that several serious questions need to be asked about large vessels' propulsion systems, steering systems and hull design and about port activities at Milford Haven, and that those serious questions can be answered only by a full public inquiry, along the same lines as the Donaldson inquiry into the Braer incident?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern but, as I said to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), it is at best premature to suggest a public inquiry. The Department of Transport's marine accident investigation branch will inquire into the incident and report.

Given his tremendous enthusiasm for section 4 grants in Wales and the tremendous benefits that we all agree that they have achieved, can the Minister give the House a categoric assurance that the Government will not abolish section 4 grants?

There is no intention of abolishing section 4 grants, but we must continue to pay attention to the amounts of money that are provided to the Wales tourist board and how they are spent. We want to ensure that they are spent more and more effectively and that Wales continues to develop its tourist industry—and not, as Opposition Members would probably want, separate Wales and make it less attractive, especially to tourists, who represent inward investment.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received about a Welsh Assembly. [14166]

Five written representations and various others.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a Welsh Assembly would be a complete waste of public money—money that would be far better spent on health and education? Is not it significant that Labour Members are completely divided about the form that such an assembly should take and are in a shambles? Should not the idea be consigned to the dustbin?

My hon. Friend is right—it would be a waste of public money, divide the United Kingdom and diminish the influence of Wales here at Westminster. She is also right to draw attention to the difficulty that Opposition Members have on the matter. In a recent BBC programme, some members of the Labour party insisted that their assembly plan involved legislative power; others insist that it would not. The attempts of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) to clear the confusion only confused some people who had not been at the start. It is time that Labour Members sorted themselves out.

As we gradually move into an election campaign, the Secretary of State will stand on political platforms parroting the formula that the Welsh Assembly will inevitably lead to the fragmentation of the United Kingdom. Will he stop for a moment and consider whether he is not demeaning and insulting the people of Wales, by implying that we are not as politically sophisticated as the people of Spain, Germany, Belgium and France, who have regional assemblies while remaining part of a united country?

The people of Wales are sufficiently politically sophisticated to have voted four to one against an assembly last time the proposition was put to them. The hon. Gentleman should reflect on that. A great many people in Wales believe that it would be a roomful of hot air that would serve no useful purpose. If the Labour party's plans were to be the subject of a referendum again, they would again be rejected.

Is not it revealing that this question was asked by a Member of Parliament from the home counties and answered by one from Yorkshire, both of whom appear to know better than do the Welsh people themselves? A couple of weeks ago, when the Secretary of State appeared on the "Week In, Week Out" programme, did he not give the impression that there was not one issue on which he did not know better than 80 or 100 elected people from Wales? Does not that come over as the height of arrogance? How on earth can he justify overruling all the interests of Wales in that cavalier way?

We get a foretaste of what such an assembly would be like from the difficulties of Labour Members. When the hon. Member for Caerphilly wanted to propose a proportional voting system at a meeting in the House of Commons, the Daily Post reported that the Labour party in Wales ganged up on him, there was an explosion of anger and the mood of the meeting was vicious. If that is a foretaste of an assembly, the people of Wales want nothing to do with it.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent action he has taken to encourage schools in Wales to offer vocational courses. [14167]

Our "bright future" programme charts the way ahead. General national vocational qualifications are being introduced in a range of subjects in schools and colleges throughout Wales. By September 1996 a total of 46 schools will be participating in our development scheme for 14 to 16-year-olds.

Is it not significant that there will be an even wider choice of GNVQ subjects in Wales than in England? Is that not extremely important, given that the requirement for skills is vital to the success of Britain as a whole and of Wales in particular in the economy of the future?

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The development scheme in Wales is supporting the introduction of full GNVQ, GNVQ units and GNVQ part 1, because the national curriculum requirements are different in Wales and permit schools greater flexibility in timetabling.

How can the Minister expect schools to undertake additional responsibilities when he is cutting the budget of the new Neath and Port Talbot authority by more than £7 million, which will have a savage impact on local schools, nursery provision and the rest for which West Glamorgan has a proud record? Should not the Government approach that settlement afresh and grant the new unitary authority the extra funds that it so desperately needs to maintain essential services?

Whenever a Labour Member speaks on education, the stench of hypocrisy fills the Chamber. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that local authorities and local education authorities decide their own priorities.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to keep Duffryn gardens open to the public after 1 April. [14168]

The lease for Duffryn house and gardens is proposed to be transferred to the residuary body for Wales for a maximum period of 12 months, to allow the new Vale of Glamorgan council to progress its plans. That will also enable the gardens to remain open to the public after 1 April this year.

Does my hon. Friend agree that Duffryn gardens is a unique feature not only in the Vale of Glamorgan but in the whole of Wales? Can he give an assurance that during the time when the gardens rest with the residuary body they will be properly maintained and that all co-operation will be extended to Vale of Glamorgan council to ensure that that happens until a long-term solution is found?

I rush to agree with my hon. Friend. It is a matter of the deepest regret that local government has brought Duffryn house and gardens to the verge of closure. Because of our regard for the gardens, we have acted to enable the rescue plan to go ahead. I give my hon. Friend the fullest assurance that I will do anything that I can to see that come about, including looking to the new Vale of Glamorgan council to carry forward work in the gardens.

Twice today—first in response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) and then in response to the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Mr. Sweeney)—the Minister has adopted not just a hypocritical but a Pontius Pilate attitude in washing his hands of major institutions in Wales. Does the Minister not realise that many of the institutions to which reference was made earlier, which were run under joint arrangements, will be cut loose as a result of his local government reforms and will not be able to continue providing for the youth and other people of Wales as they have in the past?

No. The hon. Gentleman and his friends have the expertise in hypocrisy. They are the people who say one thing and do another. We are the people who have acted, because of our regard for Duffryn gardens. It is not this Government who brought about the current situation. Local government action threatened the closure of Duffryn gardens.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the figure for male unemployment in (a) Newport, Gwent and (b) Wales, at the latest available date; and if he will express the figures in percentage

As at January 1996, the respective figures were 6,161 and 86,544, or 10.9 per cent. and 11.6 per cent.

May I remind the Minister that in the next few months the opening of the second Severn crossing will provide tremendous opportunities for the Welsh economy? To coincide with that, what new initiatives will the Welsh Office take to bring new jobs to our hard-pressed communities?

I can confirm that the second Severn crossing will be opening shortly. Had the hon. Gentleman asked me, I would also have confirmed that it is a tribute to the Government's private finance initiative, which has enabled economic capacity in Wales to expand far more quickly than with traditional financing arrangements. I should also like to confirm the hon. Gentleman's welcome for the new jobs which have been announced in his area recently. I have given the example of the merger of Sumitomo and Surface Technology Systems Ltd.—a £5 million expansion creating 100 new jobs in Newport. Where is the hon. Gentleman's welcome for that and for the way in which the Welsh economy is moving forward?

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he intends to introduce to improve education standards in primary and secondary schools in Wales. [14171]

The "bright future" initiative sets out our full programme of action to raise education standards for all pupils at school. It looks to all schools to set targets for improvement year on year. I have also published my requirements for Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools for Wales in 1996–97. They will ensure that the inspectorate continues to give close attention to the quality of teaching and standards in schools.

The Secretary of State may know that education standards in schools in my constituency are very good. They are above the Welsh average and that for England and Scotland. How will they be helped by the acute stringency in local education authorities? I have a letter from the head teacher of a comprehensive school that is about to lose between 2.4 and 4.0 teachers in the current financial year. Carmarthenshire county council will lose 57 secondary school teachers, thanks to this year's revenue support grant settlement. How will that affect education standards in my constituency and for the people of Wales?

As I have explained in answer to previous questions, I am giving more money to local authorities in the coming year. It is up to them to make sure that a proportion of that increase feeds through into education. He will also know that education standards are not just about funding. A few weeks ago, I visited a school at Merthyr which has achieved 100 per cent. improvement in examination results in one year. That is to do with the standards set by staff, discipline, clear objectives and dedicated staff—quite irrespective of funding. An enormous amount can be achieved in addition to providing proper funding for our schools.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what consideration he has given to the funding formula for the further education colleges. [14172]

It is for the Further Education Funding Council for Wales to determine, within the total provision made available to it by the House, the allocation of funds to further education institutions in Wales.

The Welsh Office and its Ministers are responsible for ensuring that a proper range of courses is available to students in further education in all parts of Wales. Does that not mean that we must have a more realistic formula for funding colleges that serve sparsely populated areas and therefore have limited scope for recruitment? Will the Minister ensure that at the end of the year, when the funding formula is revisited, changes are made to ensure that Coleg Ceredigion and others receive an adequate level of funding?

The recurring funding methodology takes account of the courses that are available. It consists of three stages: recruitment, learning and attainment. The volume of units earned at each stage gives colleges incentives to help students to choose the most appropriate learning programme. The funding methodology is also fine-tuned to reward widening participation, plurality factors, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and bilingualism.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next expects to meet the Arts Council of Wales to discuss funding of regional theatre. [14173]

I meet the Arts Council of Wales regularly as part of the annual cycle of corporate and operational planning and performance review. The next meeting is in March, to review the council's operational plan for 1996–97.

Will the Minister accept on behalf of the people of Delyn and of Mold their great thanks for the additional contribution of £200,000 that the Arts Council has made to help keep open Theatr Clwyd this year? The money is very welcome. Will he do more to encourage neighbouring local authorities to give the theatre assistance, so that it stays open this year and in future years?

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's recognition of the part played by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Department in ensuring the continued success of Theatr Clwyd. As the hon. Gentleman has said, and as my right hon. Friend has insisted, the neighbouring local authorities will, we hope, contribute to future recurrent funding of the theatre.

To ask the Attorney-General what action he is taking to improve liaison between the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. [14186]

The Crown Prosecution Service and the police are working closely together on a number of initiatives, including co-ordinated training, greater use of information technology and a scheme involving CPS lawyers giving on-the-spot legal advice in busy police stations.

In thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply and expressing my satisfaction at the co-operation between the two services—contrary to the impression given by some of the media from time to time—may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to reject the shoddy, unwarranted slur on his integrity, as did the six Queen's counsel who signed a letter to that effect published in The Times on Saturday? Will he reaffirm what we already know—namely, his total commitment to fairness in all matters relating to his office?

I am most grateful for what my right hon. Friend has said. I can reaffirm not only that I was careful and fair on that occasion, but that the 139 lawyers of the Crown Prosecution Service are working day in and day out in Wales to assist the 6,200 police officers in the common task of bringing alleged wrongdoers before the courts, firmly but fairly.

Why does the Attorney-General not do the decent thing, as Ministers used to do at one time, and resign?

The decent thing, although the hon. Gentleman might not recognise it, is to give clear and careful legal advice when it is asked for. And that is what I did.

To ask the Attorney-General what representations he has received from the Crown Prosecution Service regarding the prosecution of juveniles [14187]

The prosecution of youth offenders is one of a number of issues that my right hon. and learned Friend and I discuss in our regular meetings with the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his reply. Is he aware that the Crown Prosecution youth service warmly welcomes my private Member's Bill dealing with offensive weapons—in particular, because it gives powers of arrest to police to stop and challenge teenage hooligans carrying knives? Is my hon. and learned Friend aware of a problem brought to light by the experience of the youth service—the fact that the prosecutions of a large number of 14-year-olds have to be discontinued because the CPS cannot prove that they know the difference between right and serious wrong?

Order. That is much too long a question.

Yes. Two judges in the divisional court, in the case of C, held that the presumption was no longer part of our law. In the House of Lords, five judges held that it was. So far as I am aware, there has been no call for the two judges in the divisional court to resign. As a result of that decision in re C, the Government are looking very closely at the position to see whether any reform of the law is necessary. The Crown Prosecution Service is drafting guidance, to be issued to investigators and prosecutors, to help them to obtain and present whatever evidence is necessary in court to show that such young people know the difference between right and wrong.

To ask the Attorney-General what plans he has to reform the procedure in respect of public interest immunity certificates. [14188]

The recommendations in the Scott report with respect to public interest immunity will receive careful and detailed consideration. Sir Richard Scott has made it clear that there was no conspiracy and no cover-up. He casts not the slightest doubt on my integrity. The advice that I gave was fully in accordance with the law as it then stood.

The issue is the Attorney-General's competence. Does he accept the verdict of section G of the Scott report that he was personally at fault in the advice that he gave in relation to public interest immunity certificates? As the first Law Officer of the Crown and the Government's chief legal adviser, how can the Attorney-General possibly stay in office after Scott's savage condemnation of his incompetence and the subsequent public collapse in confidence in his role? Surely the only course—

Order. That is much too long. The hon. Gentleman has already put a question.

The hon. Gentleman is continuing what seems to be the Labour party policy of distortion on that issue. My integrity is unquestioned. I took the most careful legal advice. My view of the law is endorsed by a succession of legal decisions, by the express views of a number of top Queen's counsel and today by the view—expressed in trenchant terms—of Lord Lloyd of Berwick, a current Law Lord.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the immense anger that many of us feel at the bogus and ill-informed attacks by the Opposition? Is he aware that the allegations against him are no worse than when a High Court judge's decision is reversed on a point of law by the Court of Appeal, which decision may itself in due course be reversed by the House of Lords?

I am indeed so aware, and the House will join me in anticipating that the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), who may be about to ask me a question, will make it his very first task to withdraw the statement that he made in 1992, when he accused Ministers of being prepared to connive at the sacrifice of accused men. The Scott report has made it clear that that was wholly unfounded.

Whatever else there is in the Scott report about conniving—which I accept—should not the Attorney-General accept the guilty verdicts that Scott returned upon him: that he had a major responsibility for the inadequacy of the prosecutor's instructions, and that he was personally at fault in not ensuring that the Deputy Prime Minister's reservations were conveyed? Mr. Moses asserted that his attitude was no different from that of other Ministers.

The letter was not unread, and that point—contrary to the inquiry's own procedures—was never put to me. I remind the House that, after I had been alerted by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, I took specific steps to ensure—through my right hon. Friend's specially drafted public interest immunity certificate, which was recognised by everyone in court—that the judge should look at every document.

In regard to the public interest immunity certificates, is it not the case that defence counsel appearing for Matrix Churchill not only made no criticism of my right hon. and learned Friend, but wrote to The Times commending him and the way in which the certificates had been handled? If that is the case, what justification have the Opposition for making such a fuss?

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The House and the country should know that the trial was conducted with scrupulous fairness. I welcome the Scott report, because those who read it carefully will see that for themselves.

Will the Attorney-General—who advises Ministers on legal matters—explain to the House now what he understands to be the meaning of the doctrine of ministerial responsibility for departmental actions? If it does not apply to him now, when does it apply, and why?

The hon. and learned Gentleman should read the report carefully. I repeat for his benefit that I had two involvements in the matter. The first was to advise on the law. I did so carefully and conscientiously, not only in accordance with the top legal advice that I obtained, but in a way which, since the report's publication on Thursday, has been endorsed by the great majority of senior members of the Bar—who understand these matters—as well as the higher judiciary, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will have read today.

May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether judges created each part of the disclosure system for such documents? Can he say whether he is minded to propose to the House that the system should now be frozen on a statutory basis, or that we should continue to rely on judges to develop the process?

My hon. Friend is quite right. This is judge-made law. It has been very carefully considered by Sir Richard Scott, and the Government have made it clear that they will look at his recommendations for the future with great care. That is just what we shall do.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on references in the Scott report to his official role. [14189]

As will be clear, I welcome the Scott report, which conclusively shows that there was no conspiracy to send innocent men to gaol. My role was to advise Ministers on the law of public interest immunity. I did so carefully, and strictly in accordance with the accepted view of the law as it then stood. Following my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister's request and the drafting of his special public interest immunity certificate, I took the exceptional course of calling in the prosecution team, who assured me that the prosecution was fair.

Does the Attorney-General realise that he has not managed to persuade public opinion since the Scott report was published, and that he has not even managed to persuade some of his own Back Benchers, who rightly take the view that out of honour he should resign? Has the Attorney-General not made the comparison between the way in which he pathetically clings to office and the way in which, five years ago this month, members of the armed forces reacted, as one would expect them to do, to Saddam' s criminal aggression? They made no excuses. They acted honourably. It is a pity that the Attorney-General does not do the same.

I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman has said. I acted carefully and properly throughout. If there has been any distortion, it is in the material of which I have received a copy today and which, regrettably—indeed, lamentably—is being sent around by the hon. Gentleman's party.