To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on progress in reducing the incidence of coronary heart disease in Wales. [19373]

The death rate from this disease has fallen by 11 per cent. since the mid-1980s.

I am sure that the whole House wishes to congratulate the Welsh rugby team on its excellent victory on Saturday—a victory over the French that was as rare as it was helpful.

I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks about the magnificent victory of the Welsh rugby team over France at the national stadium last Saturday. I am sure that he wants to join me in thanking the Welsh rugby team for giving the English rugby team the helping hand it needed to win the championship.

As a positive step towards reducing the number of heart attacks among the Welsh population, will the Minister join me in criticising the leader of Cardigan council, who wants to exclude anyone from building houses in Cardigan unless they were born within 25 miles of the boundary? Does he agree that that statement, besides causing a lot of heart attacks among the 95 per cent. of the population who would be precluded from living in Cardiganshire, is either lunatic nationalism or racism at its worst?

I am not aware of any remarks made by any leader of any political group in Cardiganshire that have affected the incidence of heart disease either in Cardiganshire or anywhere else in Wales.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received urging him to hold a referendum on a Welsh Assembly. [19374]

Since September last year, I have received four written representations about the possibility of a referendum on a Welsh Assembly.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that when there was last a referendum on whether there should be a Welsh Assembly, the people of Wales voted four to one against, a vote in which Mr. Neil Kinnock opposed a Welsh Assembly? Was he not right then and is the Labour party not wrong now to oppose a referendum on a Welsh Assembly? Indeed, many Conservative Members think that there should be a referendum on a single currency as well.

My hon. Friend is right about what happened the last time there was a referendum on a Welsh Assembly. Only 12 per cent. of the electorate in Wales supported it; it was rejected by four to one. Perhaps that is why Labour Members do not have the confidence or the courage to say that they will ask the people about setting up an assembly in future. The extraordinary thing is that they plan to hold referendums in the English regions on whether there should be assemblies there, but not to consult the people of Wales.

I hope that we have a very early opportunity to consult the people of Wales at a general election. We shall invite them to pass judgment on our proposals for devolution and, at the same time, on the record of this sleazy and incompetent Government.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear the Government's position, which is that there are constitutional issues on which a referendum might be appropriate. I wrote to the Leader of the Opposition some weeks ago asking for clarification of the Labour party's approach to the questions involved, and specifically with regard to a Welsh Assembly. I am still awaiting a reply—perhaps because the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) is awaiting a clear view on devolution policy from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), in which case he will be waiting for a very long time.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be grossly irresponsible of the Government to sacrifice the sovereignty of Parliament at Westminster, in particular without the full-hearted approval of the British people? Will he bear that in mind in making representations at Cabinet level in favour of rejecting first, any idea of a Welsh Assembly, and secondly, any idea of a single currency? Will he assure the House that on no occasion would either of those principles be sacrificed without first holding a referendum?

I shall certainly bear in mind my hon. Friend's representations and I shall communicate them to my colleagues. The extraordinary aspect of the approach of Labour Members is that they had a referendum on devolution 16 years ago, which it is now their express intention to ignore.

May I bring the Secretary of State back to the question? The hon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) asked whether the right hon. Gentleman had received representations urging him to hold a referendum. Why is he so frit about it? Why does he not accept the challenge put to him by my party to hold a multi-optional referendum now, before the election, on the issue of constitutional change in Wales? Once his policies have been rejected by the people of Wales, what right will he then have to demand a referendum?

I do not need to hold a referendum in Wales because I am not putting forward so daft a policy as to advocate the creation of a roomful of hot air and another lot of politicians who would cost the Welsh taxpayer a great deal of money for no practical gain.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to ensure that voluntary organisations in Wales receive adequate assistance from his Department during the 1996–97 financial year. [19375]

The voluntary sector plays a key role in meeting the Government's aims. We shall continue to assist it.

I am glad to hear the Minister's acknowledgement of the importance of the voluntary sector. Is he aware that this year, in particular, the financial constraints on local government, together with the pressures of local government reorganisation, are making it very difficult for local authorities to provide the support and continuity that the voluntary sector needs to fulfil the requirements to which the Minister has paid tribute?

The hon. Gentleman and I are in full agreement on the principles involved. During 1994–95, the last financial year for which full figures are available, the Welsh Office either directly or indirectly supported the voluntary sector to the extent of £24 million. For the coming financial year, through the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the county volunteering councils, support for volunteering in Wales will increase by 30 per cent.

Does my hon. Friend accept that in Wales, as in the rest of Great Britain, the voluntary sector represents all that is good and characteristic of a unique British tradition? Will he join me in welcoming the fact that the resources available to the volunteering in Wales fund will be increased during the coming year by 55 per cent?

My hon. Friend is correct. We all acknowledge and applaud what the voluntary sector does in Wales. I had the opportunity last night at Duffryn house to support Ely home start, which is yet another example of the way in which the voluntary sector adds a real human face in Wales—far more than could even the most compassionate bureaucrat. I hope that that will continue.

Will the Minister join me in commending the work of the voluntary organisations that have been involved in the clean-up following the grounding of the Sea Empress, most notably the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Dyfed Wildlife Trust? Will he in particular ensure that they are not financially penalised for their public-spiritedness?

The last part of that question has been well dealt with already. On the voluntary organisations, I join the hon. Gentleman in applauding what they have done. The Government are committed to trying to ensure that anyone who has suffered as a result of the accident will have the opportunity to claim compensation. As he should know, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has announced transitional arrangements to help the process along.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on the establishment of a Welsh national lottery charities board. [19376]

None.

I am sure that the Minister knows that we have separate arts and sports councils that distribute lottery funds in Wales. Would it be appropriate to examine the possibility of setting up a Welsh national lottery charities board that would take especial account of the needs of Wales and of charitable organisations in Wales? Would that not be worth while, and should the Minister not consult on it?

I have already said that no one has made any representations to my Department on the issue. From that, I conclude that the current system is working rather well. I was fascinated to find the hon. Gentleman suddenly taking an interest in national lottery issues, but then I discovered that he has joined a 21-member Labour party committee examining the national lottery. Such committees are intended to undermine the good works of others and are known in the Labour party as slangos.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what evaluation his Department has undertaken of the effects of the current guidelines on the use of directional signing on the tourist industry in Wales; and if he will make a statement. [19377]

Following a recent consultation exercise, guidance to local authorities was issued on 6 February 1996, which enables a wider range of tourist destinations and facilities to be eligible for the white on brown traffic signs.

I thank the Minister for that response. I am disappointed that, once again, the Welsh Office is moving 18 months after the Department of the Environment. I have read the document, and a fascinating read it is, too. People in the tourist industry still feel that there is not enough scope for them to put signs up during the short summer period when they have to make a living. There should be further relaxation. The tourist industry is the most important in Wales. Will the Minister take a more relaxed attitude to individual applicants who want to put signs out?

Individual applications are for local authorities to consider. They now have more opportunity, under the more flexible guidelines that we have offered them, but that is not the end of matter. We intend to review the process after one year.

Is my hon. Friend the Minister aware that, a week ago last Friday, I spoke to 200 charming ladies in Colwyn Bay but almost lost my way because, even though my mother is a Welsh speaker, I am not? Is it not the case that the majority of the Welsh people are not Welsh speakers and that the majority of the tourists who go to Wales are not, by definition, Welsh? They will not be Welsh speakers. While one respects important minority languages such as Welsh, cannot Welsh language signs cause great confusion for drivers?

My hon. Friend's encounter with the ladies of Colwyn Bay will be of great interest and concern to my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards). I am sure that my hon. Friend's difficulties will disappear with greater opportunities. I was pleased to see today that Cardiff business school has brought out what taking the A55 expressway across north Wales has meant. It says:

"Upgraded A55 brings region out of isolation."

Will the Minister reflect on the fact that the ubiquitous brown on white sign enforces a uniformity that is uncharacteristic of Wales? Would it not be better to allow farm guest houses to put up their own tasteful signs by the roadside for part of the year to advertise their facilities? That would enable them to take advantage of the passing tourist trade that they are currently losing.

I am keen on encouraging further deregulation, which allows greater flexibility to Welsh local authorities. The hon. and learned Gentleman must accept that, currently, there is a need for appropriate rules and regulations to govern the guidelines. Not least, one should not forget that the prime purpose of the signs is not advertising, but to give direction. We are committed to reviewing the guidelines after one year of operation to see whether further opportunities exist to provide yet more deregulation and improvements.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the average increase in council tax likely to be raised by each of the county boroughs of (a) Mid Glamorgan and (b) Wales. [19378]

The band D increase for Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhondda, Cynon, Taff is between £97 and £99. The average Welsh band D increase is £74.

Is the hon. Gentleman, and particularly the Secretary of State, aware that, had the increases not been made, either school budgets would have been slashed, or teachers made redundant? Would the Secretary of State now admit modestly, to us at least, that he made a serious miscalculation when he introduced the original local government finance arrangements, given their impact on council taxes? Will he therefore review and revise those arrangements in the coming year?

No. Every council in south Wales has the opportunity to spend more than the agreed basis in the coming financial year as though they had existed during the current financial year. It is now up to local authorities to make the best use of the substantial resources available to them. Their electors would be better encouraged if those authorities were not spending their time considering how they could put up councillors' salaries and improve redundancy packages.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that councillors across Wales have markedly increased their allowances, some by as much as 400 per cent? Does he also agree that those increases are minimal compared to those that would occur if the capping regime were to be removed? Is it not also true that those increases have been dampened down by the actions of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State?

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Capping has fulfilled the essential purpose of protecting local council tax payers from the worst excesses of Labour councils. At the moment, councillors are contemplating putting up their salaries to £24,000 a year. I am sure that it is as a consequence of that, and of their other actions, that they are now being forced to set up redundancy working parties to pay them after they have been thrown out of office.

Will the Minister confirm that, in the next financial year, the Welsh Office revenue support grant will represent a smaller proportion of council spending than in previous years? Will he confirm that the Secretary of State recognised that when he increased the capping limit from 0.5 to 3.5 per cent. of the notional budget? In the next financial year, half the population of Wales will pay a council tax increase of 25 per cent. or more, and that will be well within the guidelines issued by the Secretary of State.

The hon. Gentleman is correct. We have responded to local authorities' call to have more opportunities to raise their finances locally. That is local accountability, and local electors will want to hold their authorities accountable for their actions. The hon. Gentleman should know that his new authority has more than 4 per cent. extra to spend in the coming financial year than it would have had if it had existed in the present financial year. The hon. Gentleman should do what his electors expect of him and scrutinise whether that authority will apply that extra money to important requirements such as education and care in the community.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the European Commission on the application of the principle of subsidiarity in Wales. [19379]

None.

I would like to say that I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, but I am constantly amazed as to why he, as a Yorkshireman from Rotherham, whose parents are valued constituents of mine, is in his particular job. Looking at the talents of the Tory Members representing Wales, however, one can now understand that. If the right hon. Gentleman has visited Europe, he will be aware that every successful European country, and the United States, has a system of government according to the subsidiarity principle, which is much closer to the people who are governed. If it is good enough for America and for other successful economies, why is the Secretary of State—as, of all people, a Yorkshireman, who is so proud of his county—opposed to it for Wales?

I welcome the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) to Welsh Questions, and I hope that one day his interest in Welsh matters will be as great as mine. However, he has a long way to go before that can possibly happen. He should know, as an hon. Member with great familiarity with the continent of Europe, that it is for member states to decide at what level power should be exercised internally and to decide on their national political arrangements, as was agreed at the conclusion at the Birmingham Council of Ministers. It comes particularly strange from a Labour Member to lecture us on subsidiarity when the Labour party favours giving more power to the institutions of the European Community and reducing this country's freedom of action in Europe by signing things such as the social chapter.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the social chapter, which he has just mentioned, is the very matter that exercises people in south Wales so greatly? Surely the imposition of the social chapter, so much beloved by the hon. Member for Rotherham—and Geneva—(Mr. MacShane) is precisely what will destroy jobs in south Wales.

My hon. and learned Friend is quite right: we have seen a considerable flow of investment into south Wales, and into other parts of Wales, in recent months and recent years. Those jobs would not be coming to Wales or to the United Kingdom if we were to impose additional rules, regulations and burdens on businesses in this country.

Does the Secretary of State agree that subsidiarity is not just about keeping powers away from Brussels, but means passing power across to the people? With his £7 billion budget, he is doing very nicely under the present system. As the organiser last weekend of the first Tory party conference to be held in a telephone kiosk, the one thing that he can always be sure of in British politics is that the people of Wales will reject the Tories.

The hon. Member knows—because he was listening to me talk about it on Thursday night—that my approach is to strengthen, over time, the powers and the role of local government in Wales. That will be a great deal more useful than setting up an additional tier of government, with all the unnecessary expense that that involves.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received on the cost of a Welsh Assembly. [19380]

None.

I find that answer quite extraordinary. Surely the matter of cost must be quite considerable if we are to have another layer of politicians, bureaucrats and the like. Given that the proponents of a Welsh Assembly propose no taxation by that assembly, how is it to be paid for? Will it be by reducing the amount of money going into Welsh education, the Welsh health service or other important Welsh services? The Opposition cannot have it both ways.

My hon. Friend is right: it is extraordinary. We are waiting for representations from Labour Members about the cost of a Welsh Assembly, about which they have been asked but on which they refuse to comment. Such an assembly would be likely to cost £28 million a year, after the initial £52 million in the first year. The Government could build a district general hospital or two large schools every year with that amount of money. That tells us something about the Labour party's priorities for Wales.

Is it not more extraordinary that hon. Members representing English seats are ever ready to lecture us—with their limited knowledge of Wales—about the costs of this exercise in democracy? At the same time, they are ready, for example, to swallow without criticism the cost of rail privatisation—in its run-up it will cost over £1 billion a year and thereafter it will cost £850 million a year—but they pour criticism on Wales and the experiment in democracy.

Members from English constituencies, including the hon. Members for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane), for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes), are welcome to take part in our proceedings at Welsh Question Time. We do not criticise that, but it is time that those who advocate a Welsh Assembly tried at least to be specific about the cost—and there would be a cost. It would be additional to the cost of everything else that Government in Wales are doing and it would be a cost that, as I have said, would be at least the equivalent of a district general hospital each year.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to promote interest in the culture and nation of Wales amongst the Welsh diaspora. [19381]

The Welsh Office continues to support the National Eisteddfod, which remains for Welsh people throughout the world the principal focus for Welsh language and culture.

Is there not a strong case for the Secretary of State for Wales to get together with his counterparts from Northern Ireland and Scotland to emphasise throughout the world that the United Kingdom is not England and the occupants of these islands are not necessarily English? Do we not need to promote much more the common Celtic heritage of these islands, abroad and in the United Kingdom?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that all of us in Wales who wish Wales to be promoted throughout the world are doing all we can to ensure that people do visit Wales, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Wales tourist board promotes Wales abroad very effectively.

Will my hon. Friend ignore the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay)? Is it not strange that the hon. Gentleman mentioned the fact that the Welsh are famous abroad but not the fact that the Koreans are coming, with perhaps £1 billion of investment in Wales? Does that not tell us all that we need to know about Wales, and about the social chapter and the minimum wage?

My hon. Friend is right. Wales's record in attracting more inward investment per head of population than the rest of the United Kingdom is second to none. My hon. Friend is also correct in identifying some factors that make Wales so attractive—the absence of the social chapter and the absence of a minimum wage. Another factor is the reform of working practices of trade unions throughout the 1980s, which made the Welsh work force so flexible and attractive to inward investors.

Does the Minister accept that one of the best flag-carriers of Welsh culture of the highest standard throughout the world is the Welsh National Opera Company, whose future in Wales is now being undermined by the machinations of Cardiff bay, by the opposition of South Glamorgan and by the inability of the Welsh Office to get off its backside and do anything to safeguard its future? If the opera company moves to Birmingham or Bristol, how will the Welsh Office feel about that, and what does that say about safeguarding the excellence of musical heritage in Wales, not only in opera, but in all the performing arts?

The hon. Gentleman is correct. The Welsh National Opera Company is highly acclaimed throughout the world and I am sure that the Arts Council will be well aware of what the hon. Gentleman said about the company's future.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent on the assisted places scheme in 1995–96 in Wales; and what is the percentage change in the budget for assisted places in 1996–97. [19382]

Provisional expenditure on the assisted places scheme for 1995–96 is £2,903,500; £3,781,000 has been allocated for the scheme in 1996–97, representing a 22 per cent. increase in provision, to take account of the expansion of the scheme from September 1996.

When our local education authorities are desperately short of funds, and with up to 500 teachers' jobs in Wales under threat, what sense does it make to expand by 22 per cent. the expenditure on the assisted places scheme, which benefits only a tiny minority of children? Where does the scheme stand alongside the Prime Minister's professed ambition of creating a classless society and a nation at ease with itself, when money that should have been allocated to local education authorities is instead being used to subsidise private schools?

The Government's policy is to promote assisted places schemes, because they are popular and effective and offer opportunities to those who cannot afford to pay for private education. I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman should talk of a classless society—especially in connection with education—given that his right hon. and hon. Friends take advantage of Government policies in choosing grant-maintained schools or selective education for their children.

Does my hon. Friend agree that children are all different from each other, and that diversity of provision is essential if all their differing needs are to be met? Will he attack those who knock the assisted places scheme? They are attacking opportunities for poor children in Wales and throughout the United Kingdom, and they should be aware of that.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Diversity of provision is a key part of the Government's education policy, but Labour Members do not want diversity or choice for everyone else's children; they want it only for their own.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for constitutional reform in Wales in the current Parliament. [19383]

None.

As a far more authentic Welshman than the Secretary of State, may I ask him what overwhelming amount of written support he has received in the Welsh Office for his recently announced reforms of the Welsh Grand Committee? Have letters flooded in saying what a wonderful proposal it is, and that it will change everything for the people of Wales?

I am not sure how many letters I have received about the Welsh Grand Committee, but I know that the proposals were carried in the House by a large majority.

How many telephone calls?

Quite a few of those as well.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received on the governance of Wales. [19384]

Various representations have been received.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the governance of Wales is best served by the Government's policy of evolutionary change and that it would certainly not be best served by a Welsh Assembly that would create resentment in England and division throughout the United Kingdom? Does he also agree that the plans for regional committees, assemblies and parliaments throughout the country have everything to do with Labour's attempts to appease its Back Benchers and nothing to do with good governance?

I must rush to agree with my hon. Friend. The future of Wales is much more assured within the United Kingdom. Is it not amazing to see what a mess the Opposition have got themselves into on this issue? One will say one thing, while another will say something different. The Leader of the Opposition says that a Welsh Assembly would not be a legislative body. Most notably, the Opposition will consider the possibility of assemblies for the regions of England, subject to referendums; but they will not trust the people of Wales to have any say.

Does the Minister accept that good governance requires good employment prospects in Wales? Will he please give us back our development area status and access to structural funds? Does he know that, in Clwyd, 14,000 people are out of work, and that 2,500 are out of work in my constituency? We have lost out to southern England constituencies, which have taken our development area status. We would like that status to be returned to us in Wales, particularly in Deeside.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I constantly work from the premise that unemployment in Wales is unacceptably high. However, more of Wales is covered by development area status than is any region of the home counties. That is the way that we shall continue to go forward. I would take the hon. Gentleman more seriously if he would reject his party's job-destroying policies.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received about the effect of the 1996–97 local government financial settlement on educational services throughout Wales. [19386]

I have received various representations. It is for individual local authorities to determine how the resources that are made available to them are allocated between services, including education, in the light of their statutory responsibilities and their perception of local needs and priorities.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite the substantial increases in council tax and the fact that other services are being squeezed to protect education, schools will continue to face serious difficulties in the coming year? For example, there will be a deterioration in the pupil-teacher ratio and a reduction in school services, and schools' resources will be perilously low—in some cases, schools will be in the red. Is it not time to undertake a proper review of education funding in Wales?

The Welsh Office monitors standards in education very closely—and will continue to do so. The hon. Gentleman will know that standards at GCSE and A-level continue to improve and are now at record highs. That is a very important achievement that we want to continue in the future.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the impact of the valleys programme. [19387]

The programme for the valleys has had a major impact on the area. Unemployment in the valleys is now 22.6 per cent. lower than it was in 1988, when the programme began, compared with a fall of 12.5 per cent. in Wales as a whole and of 1.3 per cent. in the United Kingdom.

Those figures simply do not match the reality on the ground. One in three adult men in valley communities are out of work, and many such communities are dying. The Minister and the Government should promote a new, positive programme to attract investment from the M4 corridor to ensure that valley enterprise zones are established which attract investment through subsidising employers who locate in those communities. We must repair the damage caused by Tory neglect, which has seen rising crime, increasing joblessness and social decay. We need a new strategy, or valley communities will die.

The hon. Gentleman does not want to accept the facts. There has been substantially more progress in fighting unemployment in the valleys, even, than in the rest of Wales and progress is far greater in Wales than in the United Kingdom as a whole. We are committed to the valleys programme and, occasionally, even the hon. Gentleman has made a positive contribution on that subject.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to hold further discussions with interested parties over the future of Theatr Clwyd. [19388]

My right hon. Friend and I have no plans to hold further discussions with interested parties over the future of Theatr Clwyd.

In light of the discussions among local authorities in the past week, and the tremendous efforts that they have made to find a solution to the problem, will the Minister agree to release the £1.3 million grant to the local authorities who will determine the future of Theatr Clwyd? If he will not agree to its release, will he lay down in the House this afternoon the conditions that local authorities must meet in order to save that theatre?

Neither my right hon. Friend nor I attended, nor were we privy to, the meetings that local authorities held this week. My right hon. Friend has made the Government's position perfectly clear. Not only has he written off the capital debt of £1.3 million, but—the hon. Gentleman should be aware of this—when the Clwyd county council budget was disaggregated for the forthcoming financial year, Flintshire county council got the £1.5 million portion of that disaggregation that had hitherto gone to Theatr Clwyd. It is now up to the Labour-controlled local authorities to put their hands in their pockets to save Theatr Clwyd—and the hon. Gentleman has more influence with them than I do.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of (a) three-year-olds and (b) four-year-olds are in state education in Gwent and in Clwyd. [19389]

At January 1995, 50.4 per cent. of three-year-olds and 93.7 per cent. of four-year-olds were in maintained nursery, primary and special schools in Gwent. The corresponding figures for Clwyd were 64 per cent. and 99.5 per cent.

Do not those splendid figures prove the effectiveness of local authorities in Wales—almost all of which are Labour-controlled—and support the conclusions of the Welsh Affairs Committee? Even Conservative Members on that Committee agreed that, in respect of Wales alone, nursery vouchers would not be an effective way to improve education. Given the marvellous education provision in Wales, nursery vouchers will be damaging to the system, and wasteful. Does not that prove again the need for a Welsh Assembly and for decisions about Wales to be made in Wales?

Welsh local authorities have an excellent record on nursery education provision, but if the hon. Gentleman has read the Welsh Affairs Committee report, he obviously has not understood it. The report states clearly that the Government's policy on nursery education is to ensure that parents have a choice of provision; they do not have choice in Wales.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement about the number of prosecutions for incitement to racial hatred. [19403]

There have been 27 applications for consent to prosecute under part III of the Public Order Act 1986; 22 have been granted, four have been declined and one has been withdrawn.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that there is widespread concern at the hateful racist activities of Hizb Ut Tahrir on university campuses? When will the proposed meeting take place between him, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Kirkhope) and the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews to discuss the issue?

My hon. Friend is quite right. We take the activities of Hizb Ut Tahrir very seriously. The meeting of which he spoke will occur in the near future, as soon as everybody can be conveniently got together. The date is likely to be shortly after Easter.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will place in the Library a copy of his submission on behalf of the Government to the consultation on public interest immunity law. [19404]

I have placed in the Library a copy of my announcement of 26 February on the consultation process, and a circular inviting those responding to take account of a number of specific issues. The consultation period remains open until 1 May.

Will the Secretary of State explain how his new proposals on public interest immunity will avoid circumstances such as those outlined by Lord Justice Scott on page 1240 of his report, where he states that Mr. Moses, the prosecution counsel in the Matrix Churchill trial, was not shown eight key documents by Government Departments and that Mr. Moses commented that, had he known about that information, he

"would not have gone on with the prosecution"?

The hon. Gentleman will understand that the point he is raising is separate from public interest immunity, on which I have gone out to consultation. It is a matter of discovering documents and bringing them forward. The Government have looked carefully at what Sir Richard Scott said in his report and there is a careful trawl around Departments to see that they understand what is required. Steps had already been taken prior to the report's publication to ensure that that aspect can be dealt with more effectively in future.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there is still a lot of misunderstanding about the use of public interest immunity certificates? Is not the concept in wide and almost daily use in both civil and criminal law? What measures will my right hon. and learned Friend take to ensure a better understanding of the concept of public interest immunity?

My hon. Friend raises an important point. One good effect of the Scott inquiry, and of the discussion about it, has been that the profile has been raised of something that criminal practitioners know is—month in, month out, week in, week out—an aspect of criminal law. There is a public interest in the confidentiality of certain documents, which need not necessarily be Government documents. They might concern child abuse cases and perhaps relate to the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, or the work of regulators. In the end, a decision is required by a judge, if necessary, as to whether such documents should be disclosed for the purposes of a trial. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the chance to elaborate on that point.

Does the Attorney-General agree, at least provisionally, with Sir Richard Scott's recommendation that, where public interest immunity arises in criminal cases, it is desirable wherever possible that the counsel who argues for PII should be different from the prosecuting counsel, to ensure no risk of a conflict of interest?

We shall give careful thought to that aspect. The hon. and learned Gentleman will know from his own experience that no conflict arises in a high proportion of cases. Public interest immunity is frequently and perfectly properly dealt with by the prosecuting counsel, but there are occasions when a conflict of interests can arise, when it is desirable to instruct separate counsel. We shall focus on those points as part of the consultation.

Is not it clear that, in many cases in which serious drug dealers are prosecuted, the evidence is based on information from informants? Unless there is some system of public interest immunity, evidence from informants would dry up and many serious criminals would walk free. Will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that, whatever the outcome of the consultation, the evidence of informants in sensitive cases can be protected by immunity?

My hon. Friend echoes the important point made by the Master of the Rolls in an intervention in the debate a fortnight or so ago. The courts have been astute to concentrate on the protection of informants—not merely down the decades, but down the centuries—for precisely the reason that my hon. Friend gave. Otherwise, the supply of informants, which is essential to the bringing to justice of often the most serious criminals—not least those concerned with drug dealing—would dry up.

Now that the Attorney-General has had the opportunity to read, and reflect on, the trenchant and detailed criticisms of his actions and advice in the Scott report's analysis of his handling of public interest immunity certificates, would he—if faced with similar circumstances—act the same way and give the same advice again?

As a lawyer himself, the hon. Gentleman will know that it is the duty of the Law Officers, including the Attorney-General, to give advice in accordance with the law as it is understood at the time. That is undoubtedly what I did. The hon. Gentleman will have read the debate in the House of Lords, where no fewer than five Law Lords endorsed the advice that I gave.

To ask the Attorney-General what representations he has received urging reform in the use of public interest immunity. [19405]

I refer the hon. Lady to the reply I gave a few moments ago to the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith). The consultation period is still at a relatively early stage. It remains open until 1 May.

Can the Attorney-General explain why, if he accepts none of the criticisms in Lord Justice Scott's report, he is now going out to consultation to change a system that he claims he operated correctly and which is itself correct?

As I am sure the hon. Lady will realise, because I am sure she has read the report carefully—[Interruption.] I am not sure whether she is saying yes or no.

indicated assent.

So she will realise that the report makes a number of serious suggestions as to how the law might operate in future. That is what we are going out to consultation on, with particular focus on the points I have mentioned in the document which I have today placed in the Library.

May I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to tread carefully when considering calls for reform of the law? After all, judges made this law, and trial judges decide whether to use the certificates, which can affect Government and non-Government alike. It is therefore far wiser to allow the judges to consider how the law should be reformed than to involve the Government at all.

My hon. Friend reflects a point made by Sir Richard Scott in his report. He said that he did not think that the time was ripe at the moment for statutory intervention in this area. This is judge-made law; as the House will know, the law has already moved on, in that the House of Lords gave revised guidance in the case of ex parte Wiley in the summer of 1994. That is the law that we operate at the moment. It is against that judge-made legal background that we shall consider how the Government should approach the subject for the future.

Whereas judges may make speeches in the House of Lords and Ministers may trawl to their hearts' content around Government Departments, can the House of Commons be bluntly and candidly told why crucial information in the hands of Ministers was not passed on to Alan Moses?

That was one of the important matters for which the Scott report was set up—the hon. Gentleman will have read for himself the points about it made in the report. He mentions the trawl around Departments and the need to identify in proper time the most relevant documents. The lessons are there to be learnt about that aspect—that is one of the benefits of a very detailed report.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on his Department's role in prosecuting benefit fraud cases. [19406]

The vast majority of benefit fraud cases are investigated by the Benefits Agency and prosecuted by the Department answerable to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security, or are investigated and prosecuted by a local authority. Some of the more serious cases are, however, investigated by the police and prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service.

Is it of concern to my hon. and learned Friend, as it is to the Social Security Committee, to learn that, despite widespread fraud in the benefits system, so few people are prosecuted? Will he undertake to discuss with the Social Security Secretary and relevant Departments how the number of successful prosecutions can be increased, so that people get the message that cheating the system means ending up in gaol or being heavily fined?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's point, but he ought to remember that the gravity of some of these cases is much more important that their total number. The cases that the Crown Prosecution Service deals with, although few in number, are very important and have a deterrent effect that outweighs their number. These are usually offences of theft or conspiracy to defraud, and the courts, without exception, impose significant sentences of imprisonment. That sends out a clear, unambiguous message to anyone minded to cheat the system.

To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a progress statement about his consultation on public interest immunity law. [19407]

The Government will give careful consideration to all views received in response to the consultation.

Is not the truth that—as the Attorney-General's answers this afternoon have so far shown—despite Scott's stinging criticism of his legal incompetence and abuses of public interest immunity law, and despite the huge constitutional issues exposed by the report, all he and the Government are doing about the report is a long grass job?

It is clear that the hon. Gentleman has spent little or no time carefully reading the report.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend be a little less modest and self-restrained? Is it not absolutely clear that the Law Lords, who are higher than Lord Justice Scott, said that the Attorney-General's advice was totally right and that Lord Justice Scott was totally wrong?

I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend. Lawyers can disagree, but my advice— as I have often told the House—was carefully researched and has been approved at the highest level by all the Law Lords who spoke in the debate and by the Master of the Rolls. I rest my case.

To ask the Attorney-General what steps he is taking to improve communication between himself and his officials and the judiciary. [19408]

I and my officials communicate with the judiciary from time to time about a range of matters. The way in which such communications are conducted varies according to the circumstances.

In the light of the failure of the Attorney-General's office to pass on, to the judge and elsewhere, the representations made by the now Deputy Prime Minister, will the Attorney-General tell the House whether, from now on, he will guarantee that any representations made to him on behalf of any Minister or any Member of the House in legal proceedings in which the Government have an interest or a role to play will be passed on, without delay, to the judge?

Once again, the hon. Gentleman, who also is a lawyer, should have read the report more carefully. The letters in question were immediately passed by my office to the Treasury Solicitors' Department. The principal method used by me to pass on my right hon. Friend's concerns was the public interest immunity certificate itself, which was read in open court, and was specifically noted and followed carefully by the judge, who studied every document and decided what should and should not be disclosed.