To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received concerning the level of the milk quota in the United Kingdom. [3719]

The Commission will present the Council with an options paper on the future of the dairy industry early next year. I shall continue to resist any arbitrary cuts in the United Kingdom's allocation.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer and for visiting my constituency recently and talking directly to several farmers who have been hit by the bovine spongiform encephalopathy crisis. He heard the concerns of farmers in my constituency, especially Mr. Paul Kenny who has a farm in Slaidburn and who spoke about the milk quota problem. Our milk quota is not sufficient to meet the amount that we should produce for home consumption. That problem has been exacerbated by the BSE crisis because many cattle that would not normally be in the fields are being kept out and producing milk. I fear that we will hit our quota sooner rather than later, but may face a shortage of milk thanks to the quota problem. Can he reassure farmers in Ribble Valley that he is working hard to ensure that we get an increased milk quota and that he is doing all that he can to ameliorate the current crisis?

I enjoyed my visit to my hon. Friend's constituency and I remember Mr. Kenny and the point that he made. In the long term, we would like the system of quotas to be done away with. In the short term, the position is more encouraging than some people have imagined in the sense that milk production is now 0.5 per cent. below the quota profile. That is an encouraging state of affairs.

Is not the reality that the Government failed the country in 1984 when they agreed to milk quotas way below our requirements? Is not the solution to that problem the abolition of milk quotas? Has the Minister discussed with the new members of the European Community—Sweden, Finland and Austria—their views of the future of milk quotas?

There are several concepts of what we should have when the present system of milk quotas expires in 2000. The United Kingdom would much prefer to do away with quotas and price support of the present sort, although there would have to be a fairly extended transitional period. We must await the options paper, which we will get early next year. It is extraordinary that a Labour Member should make a point about a bad baseline, however, because we got less than we would have liked as a direct consequence of the agri-monetary policy pursued by the Labour party in the 1970s, which prevented us from having a sufficient output to justify a larger basic quota.

May I take it that my right hon. and learned Friend is aware of the dilemma faced by dairy farmers in my constituency and elsewhere? With the uncertainty over the accelerated cull, they do not know whether to dry off their cows or continue to milk them throughout the winter and thus go over quota. That causes difficulties with forward planning. Will he take that into account in his discussions with his European counterparts?

My hon. and learned Friend makes a sound point. It is highly desirable that dairy producers in his constituency should know the situation as exactly, and as soon, as possible.

Is the Minister aware that milk quotas, with his deregulation policies, have pushed up prices, destroyed jobs and caused problems with doorstep delivery? Will he make more effort to encourage children to drink milk rather than make policies that store up health problems for later life, such as osteoporosis?

I do not want to be unkind to the hon. Lady, but the first part of her question was total nonsense. The process of deregulation has actually been a great success.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what measures he has taken to ensure that BSE-infected cattle are not used by pet food manufacturers. [3720]

Since 1988, all cattle suspected of having BSE must, by law, be notified to the Ministry; those affected are then slaughtered and the carcase incinerated.

Does the Minister have any contingency plans if any cross-species infection is identified, so that we do not have the same sort of inept muddle that we have had with mad cow disease if we identify mad dog disease?

That is not a well-directed question.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the industry has always been in the lead on safety matters? For example, the member companies of the Pet Food Manufacturers Association had a voluntary ban on the use of specified bovine offal six months before the House passed legislation on human use. Will he reassure the House that he will keep in the closest touch with the industry at the highest level as well as at official level, so that the industry is fully apprised of European developments?

Yes, indeed; but the controls that we have in abattoirs, rendering plants and knackeries are the toughest in Europe and address all the points about which my hon. Friend is concerned and which underpin his question.

In connection with all the measures for the eradication of BSE to which the Minister has referred, does he accept that there is continuing concern about the mismanagement of the slaughter programme? Has he read the article in a recent edition of Professional Engineering, which refers to the fact that, although the welcome increase in the slaughter programme to around 55,000 a week is dramatic, only about 1,000 carcases are being safely disposed of? The report states—I hope that he will confirm this—that the Ministry is still "frantically searching" for a safe solution to that problem. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that there is still widespread concern at the Government's failure to take a grip on the cull?

I really do not think that that criticism is especially well founded. On the over-30-month scheme, we now have the slaughter rate up to around 60,000— the total was slightly more than 60,000 last week—and, given that rate, I am confident that we can clear the backlog by the end of the year, as we said some time ago.

Which year?

At the end of this year. That is an absurd intervention. The hon. Gentleman is simply causing confusion.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he has taken to protect bird life on set-aside land. [3722]

The management rules for set-aside are designed to protect wildlife and the environment. Further changes are being introduced in 1997 to restrict the cutting, and prohibit the cultivation, of set-aside during the main nesting season to protect birds such as lapwing and skylark.

I welcome the new changes in the management of set-aside as it affects bird life. Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue of bird life is one of considerable interest to those of us who are lucky enough to live in rural areas? Is he aware, for example, that the rare stone curlew comes to nest at Elveden in my constituency, and that the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, with lottery funding, is recreating the natural habitat of the fens at Lakenheath as it existed prior to the draining of the fens several hundred years ago?

The Government and landowners do an enormous amount, both on set-aside and non-set-aside land, to promote bird life. We have environmentally sensitive areas and the countryside stewardship scheme, and landowners co-operate with the farming and wildlife advisory group. Those are excellent initiatives. Indeed, encouraged by the RSPB, they are all worthwhile initiatives to promote bird life.

The Minister mentioned the agri-environment regulations, but can I direct his attention to the organic aid scheme? Birds thrive in an organic environment and, although I applaud the Government's action on the organic aid scheme, why is no help given to farmers who already farm organically? Is not that a change that should be made?

Farmers who farm organically will find increasingly that they will be rewarded in the marketplace. They should not require reward from the Government. If they believe that there is a demand for organic farming, that reward will come to them in the marketplace subsequently.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of expenditure on the intervention buying of agricultural commodities in the United Kingdom in 1996–97. [3723]

Estimated expenditure on the intervention buying of agricultural commodities in the United Kingdom in 1996–97 is £320 million.

Can the Minister confirm that 413,000 tonnes of beef now stands in a mountain in intervention? Does he accept that that is a clear measure of the Government's failure to deal with the BSE crisis adequately? Does he accept that the only way to restore consumer confidence is to establish an absolutely independent, customer-oriented food standards agency, which might help to restore consumer confidence?

In the financial year 1996–97, purchases of beef are expected to amount to about 100,000 tonnes. We have had to intervene in the market as a consequence of the collapse in consumer confidence that has occurred as a result of what is commonly referred to as the BSE crisis. It is a consequence of the lack of market confidence.

Intervention buying is an important way to stabilise agricultural markets, so what action are the Government taking to stabilise the European market in farmed salmon? Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer blocking progress to stabilise that market? Could it be that an industry that contributes 6,000 jobs and £250 million to the Scottish economy is not important enough to deserve effective action from the Government?

That is a question of such complexity that I propose to respond to the hon. Gentleman in writing.

Does the Minister agree that his vacillation over the Florence agreement is undermining efforts to restore beef markets throughout Europe? The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes great play of the fact that the UK has met four of the five Florence obligations, but does he realise that three of those four conditions relate to human and animal health and should have been met years ago, and that the chaos in the Government's over-30-month slaughter scheme led to the fourth condition—that the Government get their act together? Regarding the fifth condition, for which, apparently, the Minister has not yet presented proposals, will he tell the House today whether he will implement a selective slaughter programme—yes or no?

The premise that underpins the hon. Gentleman's question is the lack of confidence in European markets. There is indeed a lack of confidence in European markets. There has been a collapse in the sale price of beef in European markets, and there is much anxiety among the farming community. That has certainly had an effect on members of the European Union, making them less willing or able—two ways of describing the same thing—than they previously were to proceed rapidly and substantially to lift the ban.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress he has made in respect of changing the EU rules which prohibit charity events on set-aside land. [3724]

I am pleased to be able to say that my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister secured an undertaking from the European Commission in July that the use of set-aside land for charitable events would be permitted in future. The Government welcome that as a sensible change to the set-aside rules which meets public concerns.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the prohibition is one more reason why the public in the United Kingdom are beginning to dislike the European Union? This is nonsenseland. Can my hon. Friend assure me that he will progress the revision of the common agricultural policy as soon as possible?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the type of approach that the Commission took at the end of 1995, when it wrote to us ruling out the use of set-aside land for charitable and local fund-raising events, brings the Commission into disrepute; that is why we sought to persuade the Commission to relax the rules for such events. We were successful, and whenever necessary we seek to ensure that the Community proceeds on the basis of commonsense policies.

I have been listening carefully to the Minister's reply, but the House has not yet heard the whole story. As I understand it from the Commission, the Government did indeed approach the Commission for clarification, but concentrated in their interpretation on the issue of the lucrative use of set-aside land—including for charitable purposes. The Commission maintains that the Government's own interpretation is what stopped the charitable use of set-aside land for at least a year before the issue was clarified. The rules most certainly have not been changed—the Minister did not say that they have—but they have been clarified.

That is complete hogwash. The simple facts are as follows: at the end of 1995, the Commission wrote to us ruling out the use of set-aside land for charitable and local fund-raising events, and made it perfectly clear that it was tightening up on the rules. The initiative came from the Commission, not from us—

Not on the interpretation of lucrative use.

I know that it is difficult for anyone in the Labour party to understand the idea of "lucrative". When charities organise fund-raising events, they hope to raise money from them. Such activities are, therefore, lucrative. The Commission made it very clear that it was tightening up the rules. We had to take the initiative to get the Commission to change those rules back, and that is what we have done.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will establish an independent inquiry into the pricing practices of the meat retailing sector. [3725]

We do not see the need to hold an inquiry into the meat retailing sector at the moment.

Is the Minister aware that beef farmers in this country, who get no help in the present difficult circumstances—

indicated dissent.

Most beef farmers raise their beef and take their cattle to market, where they get 20 per cent. less for them than they did before March. That has made it not worth feeding the animals over a long period. They want to know—it has not yet been explained to them properly—why a 20 per cent. cut in the price they get at market works through to a reduction of only 1 per cent. in the price to the consumer and housewife—and butchers and supermarkets. Those facts have been checked with the Minister and with the House of Commons Library. Farmers and consumers are not satisfied that they are not being robbed by someone along the food chain.

It is quite fallacious to say that the Ministry has not supported the beef farmer. We have done so with two tranches of money—£29 million already distributed at more than £60 per head of cattle that have gone into the food chain; and another tranche of £29 million due to be paid shortly to support farmers—

indicated dissent.

It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his head: it is a matter of record. The hon. Gentleman may not like the truth, but here it is. I do not know how often he does his shopping: I hope that he, like me, goes to the supermarket and the butcher every week. If he does, he cannot fail to have noticed that, since 20 March—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get on with it."] I am getting on with it. It is pathetic that when this important market and the issue of consumer confidence in this product are discussed in the House, Opposition boys and girls are so quick to run down this vital industry. [Interruption.] The supermarkets have supported British beef; they said from day one that they would sell it, and they have. I offer the hon. Gentleman one example—[Interruption.]

Order. The hon. Lady has a right to answer without being barracked.

Let me give the hon. Gentleman one fact—there are many more. In November 1995, Tesco was selling British mince at 139p per kilogram. This week, mince is on sale in Tesco, as it is in many other supermarkets, at 94p per kilogram. Such a display of confidence will get people back to British meat. That is what the supermarkets are doing.

That was telling them —I thank my hon. Friend. I do not believe that she has had any inquiry from butchers for financial support, however deserving they may be. Does she agree that the high street butcher can tell the customer exactly where the meat comes from, how to cook it and what price to pay for it?

Indeed. My hon. Friend mentions an important sector of the meat retailing trade. The independent butchery trade is responsible for the retailing of 40 per cent. of British meat. We have been supportive of, for example, campaigns run by the Meat and Livestock Commission, especially to promote important sales of forequarter cuts such as braising beef and mince. I was pleased to launch the 8,000th independent butcher selling MLC-accredited mince. It has been an extremely successful campaign and it has done a great deal to restore British confidence.

Does the Minister accept that there is a relationship between the amount of beef consumed and the price? Does she agree that one way to clear the stocks of intervention beef quickly is to give it away to charitable organisations so that they can distribute it to the needy in areas such as mine? Will she extend that scheme beyond beef to butter and, if she wishes to be popular, to wine and cheese?

I can inform the House that 64,000 tonnes of intervention beef has been stewed and canned and is being distributed as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about the reform of the EC fruit and vegetable regime. [3726]

Now that the Council regulation has been agreed, we are working with our growers to ensure that the detailed implementing rules reflect their needs.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the reforms that he and his European colleagues have secured to the fruit and vegetable regime. Will he confirm that only through a thorough overhaul of the common agricultural policy will it be possible to eliminate the waste and corruption that is still endemic in the present system of subsidies? Will he also strive for the repatriation of some elements of agricultural policy to Britain so that, for example, the minimum size of fruit that can be sold in our shops can once again be a matter for the consumer, not for politicians or bureaucrats?

I agree with much of what my hon. Friend says. Credit for negotiating the fruit and vegetable regime should go to our right hon. and learned Friend. My hon. Friend is right to say that our view of the common agricultural policy does not stop at the limited review and reform of the fruit and vegetable regime. We want a much more market-related and competitive CAP. There have been regulations on fruit sizes in the United Kingdom for many years—predating the CAP. No significant changes are being enacted under the CAP or the fruit and vegetable regime, save in respect of one or two of the minimum sizes of traditionally larger apples. I have read some press comment, not all of which is well conceived, but my hon. Friend can rest assured that the Cox's Orange Pippin, and the small Cox's Orange Pippin, are safe in our hands.

Why are the Government going to such lengths to turn Europe into a continent of vegetarians? Since the Prime Minister told the House four months ago that the beef export market could be reopened if the British Government fulfilled the Florence criteria and carried out the selective cull of cattle at risk from BSE, why is the Ministry refusing even to undertake preliminary work to identify the cattle that would need to be culled in order to fulfil those criteria?

My right hon. and learned Friend has already responded fully and sufficiently to the issue of the selective cull. The initiative for depriving continental colleagues of the opportunity to eat British beef came at their behest, not ours. We regard the ban on selling excellent British beef in Europe as misconceived and legally inappropriate. We shall press at all times for its removal.

Can my hon. Friend inform the House whether any progress has been made in Brussels on establishing a potato regime?

We support the introduction of a modest potato regime along the lines of the fruit and vegetable regime, but with no recourse to intervention. It should protect and expand the market, but not involve waste or expense. We adhere fairly closely to the Commission position and we are pleased that several member states came into line with that position at the recent Council meeting. However, we have by no means secured the consensus that will lead to a common regime—although that remains a highly desirable objective.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to introduce disincentives in respect of intensive farming. [3727]

The Department's codes of good agricultural practice provide guidance to all farmers on protecting the environment. Environmental incentives are available through our agri-environment schemes, which in many cases promote extensive farming. In addition, extensification premiums are paid under the suckler cow and beef special premium schemes.

Does the Minister recall that one of the principal mistakes of over-intensive agriculture emerged in the realisation in 1988 that ruminant protein was almost certainly the main cause of BSE and that it was banned from cattle food? Is it not unbelievable that the Government confessed only recently that the date on which we can be certain that BSE contaminants were no longer in animal feed was 1 August—not 1988 but 1996? Will the Government apologise to the nation for their criminal delay, which has escalated the BSE tragedy?

I sometimes think that the hon. Gentleman should award himself the prize for the worst link between a supplementary and a main question. His original question referred to the extensification of agricultural production. If the hon. Gentleman looks at virtually any textbook from 100 years ago on what ruminants may be fed, he will find meat meal mentioned.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best incentive for our farming community to extensify production is for the United Kingdom consumer to pay a fair price for a good product?

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. British beef is excellent, it is well produced and it deserves to be consumed.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will ensure that cattle from the Isle of Wight are allocated a regular slot in an abattoir under the BSE slaughter programme. [3728]

I expect abattoirs at Bath, Bridport and Langport, which have regularly taken over-30-month cattle from the Isle of Wight, to continue to do so.

I thank my hon. Friend and his staff for the help that they have given the island farmers, but there is a problem with very short notice—often late on a Friday—of an allocated slot at 8 am on a Monday. Owing to problems with ferry bookings, that creates difficulties—of which I know my hon. Friend is aware. We need a regular weekly slot for about 25 head of cattle; we could then deal with the balance in the usual manner. I hope that my hon. Friend will use his considerable ministerial influence to assist me in obtaining that concession from the Intervention Board.

I note my hon. Friend's specific point about the logistics of transporting cattle from the Isle of Wight. When we introduced the registration scheme, 438 cattle were registered as part of the backlog on the island. Of those, at least 170 have been slaughtered. I expect the remaining 260 or so to be slaughtered in the next two or three weeks. It is therefore a short-term problem and, when the OTMS continues, I do not expect any difficulties in ensuring that island farmers get a weekly slot as and when they need it.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to vary current quarantine regulations. [3729]

We are looking again at rabies control policy, taking account of the most recent information. If new moves are decided on, an announcement will be made. I stress that our paramount need is to protect the health of people and animals in this country.

Is the Minister aware that the great weight of public opinion and, increasingly, scientific opinion, is moving against the absurd rabies and quarantine regulations in this country? There has been no recorded outbreak of rabies coming from a pet animal anywhere in Europe, ever, yet thousands of animals and pets die in quarantine each year because of all the diseases that they pick up while there from other animals, and the appalling conditions that prevail in many quarantine kennels. Is it true, as was reported in The Sunday Telegraph, that the Prime Minister has asked the Minister to produce a report on the regulations by the end of this month? Is that true, and will he have that report?

I certainly will not comment on reports in the newspapers that are a private matter between the Prime Minister and a Minister. I have made it clear to the House—I shall repeat it for the hon. Gentleman if he did not hear me the first time—that we are looking again at rabies control policy, taking account of the most recent information, which will, of course, include recent scientific information.

My hon. Friend will be aware that her Department has spent considerable sums over the past few years—or rather more than the past few years—in promoting a fear of rabies in the British population. Will she now consider spending a similar sum in bringing up to date the scientific advice, on not only the veterinary side but the health side, so that the British public can view the matter in a rather different light from mediaeval witchcraft?

My hon. Friend was Chairman of the Agriculture Select Committee, which produced a very useful document, and we promised to keep the policy under review. I assure him, as I have the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), that all the latest scientific evidence on this subject—some of it is quite recent—will be taken into account as part of the review.

Has the Minister read the report by the Agriculture Select Committee? If so, she will have noticed that the previous Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food ruled out any change in quarantine regulations before the Select Committee had made its recommendations and reached a conclusion. Is it not time that the Ministry revisited that report? Will she bear it in mind that many of us on that Committee approached the study convinced that quarantine had to remain, but we were convinced of the opposite after we had examined all the evidence?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will remember that the Select Committee report generated quite a long debate on the Floor of the House in which he and I took part. I can assure him that we shall study the report as part of the review.

I warmly welcome the cautious but determined way in which the Government are reconsidering this issue. Does my hon. Friend agree that nobody—including me—who advocates change to our quarantine rules is advocating relaxing or slackening the rules? It is quite the reverse. We wish to see a tightening of the regulations, using the latest scientific and technological equipment to eradicate the need for smuggling, which is probably the greatest threat.

I am familiar with my hon. Friend's views. He has made them available to the Ministry on more than one occasion. We hear quite a few reports of smuggling, but the fact that a few people break a rule is not necessarily a reason to abolish that rule.

Will the Minister bear it in mind that anyone who is concerned about human beings does not want a single person in the United Kingdom to die from rabies? The decisions that she takes will have an immediate and important effect, and I know that she will bear that in mind.

I am conscious of the very important point that the hon. Lady mentioned. Indeed, I would go further and say that any proposal that is to be seriously considered must also take into account the fact that, in countries on mainland Europe that have been free of rabies for many years, people bitten or scratched by an animal still must have preventive treatment. For example, 10,000 people in France had to undergo injections as a result of being scratched or bitten by a dog. In the UK, that is not a treatment that people have to endure.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on his policy in respect of (a) compulsory decommissioning of fishing vessels and (b) quota hopping. [3730]

The Government have made it clear that they are determined to find a lasting solution to the problem of quota hoppers. We have tabled a proposal in the intergovernmental conference. We have made it clear that we will not accept any compulsory decommissioning objectives for United Kingdom fishermen while the quota hopper issue remains unresolved.

When I am next in the fishermen's club in Eastbourne, may I give my constituents the Minister's assurance that we will not accept up to a further 40 per cent. reduction in our fishing fleet, that we will not allow 20 per cent. of our fleet to remain in foreign ownership and that, for the British Government, nothing less than a treaty change will do?

Yes. Fishing is one of the only policy areas in the European Union that applies national quotas. It is a perfectly straightforward proposition that UK fish should be for UK fishermen.

I welcome the Minister's robust stand on quota hopping. Will he be just as robust on the unrealistic proposals for reductions in quotas that are coming from Brussels, which fly in the face of reality—particularly in the Irish sea? Brussels is trying to impose on fishermen regulations on the size of catch that do not take account of the species that inhabit those waters.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the UK fishing industry, of which the Northern Ireland industry is an important part, made sensible proposals on technical conservation, which were all but ignored by the Commission. The Commission produced some complex and disadvantageous proposals, which, I am glad to say, we were able to kick into touch and will not be debated at tomorrow's Fisheries Council meeting. The Commission has been told to go back and get its tackle in order before coming forward with further proposals on technical conservation.

Does my hon. Friend accept that developments on quota hopping and boats in foreign ownership become more bizarre each day? Has he seen today's Daily Mail, which contains an account of a sea rescue involving a Nimrod and two helicopters from my constituency that lifted a Spanish fisherman to Cornwall? It seems that the man was not ill after all. That is apparently only one of a number of such incidents. Has my hon. Friend got to the bottom of the mystery of the Spanish fishermen who turn up in benefit offices in Cornwall and register for national insurance numbers? What on earth is going on?

There can be no justification for large numbers of Spanish-skippered, Spanish-owned, Spanish-crewed vessels in south-western waters masquerading as UK vessels and seeking to catch fish from our quota. That is crazy and it must come to an end. We are determined that it should end as speedily as possible. The only reasonable inference I can draw from the fact that Spaniards land from quota hoppers and take taxis to local unemployment benefit offices in my hon. Friend's constituency is that in some bizarre way they are seeking to justify an economic link. It is the craziest of all economic links if the only link that they can justify is that of claiming unemployment benefit.

Does the Minister agree that vessels engaged in industrial fishing should be compulsorily decommissioned as soon as possible? He cannot deny that industrial fishing vessels have inflicted damage on commercially valuable stocks. When will the Council of Ministers ban industrial fishing?

Quite apart from my concern that we should tackle the problem of quota hopping, I am worried about the Commission's proposals on decommissioning, because they make hardly any reference to industrial fishing. It is daft that proposals that are intended to deal with conservation measures do not deal with industrial fishing. If we are to reduce fish mortality, we must tackle the effects of industrial fishing, particularly on some of our stocks in the North sea.

To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much money has been spent on decommissioning fishing vessels over the last three years. [3731]

This year's scheme is still in progress, but it should add about £12 million to the £26.2 million spent in the previous three years.

Does my hon. Friend agree that this seems to be a cynical attempt to scupper our fishing fleet`? Does he agree that the problem seems to be not too many boats chasing too few fish, but too many Spanish boats chasing our fish? May I urge him to take a leaf out of Sir Francis Drake's book when it comes to dealing with armadas, and to press the issue at the intergovernmental conference until it is settled to the satisfaction of our fishermen?

I could not have made it plainer to the House that we are not prepared—the United Kingdom fishing industry is not prepared, and I do not think that any sensible person is prepared—to accept any compulsory further reductions in the UK fishing fleet until the whole issue of quota hoppers is resolved. Some 20 per cent. of our beam trawler fleet is now, in effect, foreign owned. The situation is crazy; it must be stopped, and we are determined that it will be.

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3749]

This morning, I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the report in today's issue of The Independent which states that, yesterday, three members of the IRA's Army council were brought to the House of Commons by Labour Members? Is he aware that one of them was allowed to wander around for 20 minutes unaccompanied? Will he please instigate an immediate investigation?

I understand that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has written to Madam Speaker about the incident. My understanding is that those representatives of Sinn Fein were invited to the House to meet a number of hon. Members, that no prior notification about the meeting was given and that the representatives were, from time to time, left unattended. I do not know what the outcome of the inquiry will be, but I think that it is stunning naivety on the part of any hon. Member not to realise the connection between Sinn Fein and the IRA.

In view of the extraordinary importance of the European reports on a single currency—matters that may be decided by Ministers in December—does the Prime Minister not agree, on reflection, that it would be monstrous to deny hon. Members a chance to debate the reports in full on the Floor of the House, especially as that was the unanimous view of the Select Committee on European Legislation? Does he not agree that a general debate on European matters prior to the Dublin summit is no adequate substitute?

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is right about the last point. There was detailed scrutiny in the Standing Committee, and in due course we shall table the appropriate motion. No final decisions are made at the meeting of Finance Ministers; that will be a matter, if appropriate, for the European summit in Dublin. As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, and as my right hon. Friend the Lord President has made clear, the House invariably has an opportunity to have a full debate before such a summit, and there will be a full debate—in which this matter will be relevant—before the Dublin European summit.

Those explanations were specifically and unanimously rejected by the Select Committee. May I point out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has actually written that decisions may be made over the next few weeks? In any event, surely we would be failing in our duty if we did not debate these matters properly in the House. Would the Prime Minister not be a good deal more honest if he simply stood at the Dispatch Box and said that he was afraid to let the Chancellor of the Exchequer stand and debate the issues? That speaks volumes about the disarray of his Government.

Anyone who thinks that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor is not willing, able and confident to debate with the right hon. Gentleman, or anyone, on any subject at any time simply does not know my right hon. and learned Friend. I repeat the point that I made to the right hon. Gentleman a moment ago: no decisions will be made at the Economic and Finance Council meeting. The matter will come forward to the Heads of Government meeting in Dublin. If decisions are to be taken, they will be taken there, and not even that is certain. In any event, this issue and other issues will be the subject of a full debate before Dublin.

What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is in contradiction to the letter from the Chancellor to the Chairman of the Select Committee on European Legislation, but if the Chancellor is indeed happy and prepared to debate these issues, let us have the debate. There can be no possible reason for not debating these questions. How can the Prime Minister be trusted with Britain's future in Europe when the internal party management of the Conservative party—because that is what it is about—always takes precedence over the interests of Britain or even, as here, British democracy? If he is not afraid of the debate, let him call one.

This is the right hon. Gentleman who once wanted to leave the European Union. This is the right hon. Gentleman who said, "I will never be isolated in Europe." If he is never prepared to be isolated in Europe, he could not possibly defend the British interest in Europe. We are prepared to be isolated where necessary. We do defend the British interest. It will be debated in the House and I will defend the British interest at Dublin.

Yesterday in European Standing Committee B, which I attended, there was no proper scrutiny of these important regulations, which affect the powers of the House. We were discussing the so-called stability pact, whereby important decisions about the British economy would be transferred from Britain to Frankfurt and Brussels. As my right hon. Friend himself has not made up his mind about whether Britain should join the single European currency, why should the House agree now to these regulations?

These regulations, were they to be approved in due course, would apply only to those countries that enter into a single currency—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes. It is no good saying, " No." That is the fact of the matter. Whether Britain enters a single currency will certainly be determined in the House and it would then be determined in a full referendum of this country.

The Prime Minister is simply running away on this issue and the whole country knows it.

The right hon. Gentleman would do well to read the Audit Commission report in full. He will find that it endorses our strategy for intervening early with young people who might offend. I look forward to his support for the Green Paper, which he knows is coming forward. I hope that he will consider it. I hope that he will support it and I hope that he will, for once, have some proactive and worthwhile ideas to contribute to the debate.

Since today's press shows that Labour's answer to the question, "When is a pledge not a pledge?" is "When it is a commitment," will my right hon. Friend assure the House—(Interruption.)

Order. The hon. Lady will be heard. I want to hear her question. She is usually in order and I bet that she is going to be in order now.

Will my right hon. Friend give the House and its Members the pledge that he will continue to speak clearly and without ambiguity as to his plans for this country?

I find it extraordinary that 89 spending promises suddenly disappear, apparently overnight. The Opposition claim that what we said yesterday was untrue—I think "lies" was the word that they used—but, as we were quoting what they said, I wonder who the deceivers really were.

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3750]

I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Does the Prime Minister recall his promise—indeed, his pledge—to construct a classless society in this country? If he really meant that, why is he so set against the proposal from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to scrap the right of hereditary dukes, marquesses, earls, viscounts and lords to speak and vote in the House of Lords? Could it just be that the boy from Brixton, whom I remember, has got a feeling to make himself into a nob after he leaves here? Does he really want to be remembered as the nob from Brixton?

I hope that the future Lord Banks will reconsider what he has said about that matter. My remarks about a classless society were about equality of opportunity, and not about the grey uniformity that the hon. Gentleman would wish to see in this country.

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3751]

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.

May I ask my right hon. Friend to order an urgent Government study into the recent report from Goldman Sachs which suggested that every household in Aylesbury would pay an additional £70 a year for its electricity alone if a windfall tax on the utilities were introduced? Those households would also face higher charges for gas and water and for the use of the telephone. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that such a tax would hit hardest at pensioners and people on low incomes—all those whom the Labour party pretends that it cares about?

It may be that we will find, yet again, that the windfall tax is another promise that is not. Perhaps we will find that out this afternoon.

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3752]

I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Although I regret the Prime Minister's decision to duck a debate on the single currency, I warmly welcome his courageous decision to sponsor this afternoon's debate on the privatised utilities and the Tory party's links with the bosses of those companies that have made obscene profits on the backs of the rest of us. Can he confirm that many of those companies have made large donations to the Tory party and have provided top jobs for ex-Tory Ministers? This afternoon's debate will allow the House to expose the Tories for what they really are—the political wing of the privatised utilities.

I thought for a moment that the hon. Gentleman was going to raise the question of the Leader of the Opposition's secret fund. I wonder whether we will hear which business men fund it; we certainly have not heard that yet. We were told by the Opposition spokesman that the fund has been set up as a blind trust to ensure that there is no linkage between donations and political influence. There were no names given, and nothing about the openness that the Opposition promised us some time ago. Because of a newspaper examination, all we have is the fact that the fund exists, and I hear that the deputy Leader of the Opposition has a research fund as well.

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3753]

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Barnet council recently voted to have its refuse collection done by the direct labour department despite the fact that an outside tender would have saved £500,000 over the length of the contract? Does he agree that that shows that Labour and Liberal councillors are more interested in jobs for the boys than in value for money for the ratepayers? Will my right hon. Friend assure me that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will take action to see that Barnet ratepayers are protected against dogmatic socialist policy?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have heard what my hon. Friend had to say. It is no secret that the Labour party is hostile to competitive tendering, even though it saves money for the council tax payer—a fact which is an irrelevance to Labour. As the deputy leader of the Labour party once said,

"Society should tolerate relative inefficiency in labour intensive sectors".

To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 21 November. [3754]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago.

How much will the Prime Minister's proposal to abolish capital gains tax and inheritance tax cost the average taxpayer? Will he tell us whether that is a pledge, a policy, an aim, an aspiration—or merely another Tory tax lie?

As I have frequently told the House, we are pledged to abolish, as affordable, capital gains tax. I shall tell the hon. Gentleman why. Such action will create jobs and stimulate employment, which is what I am determined to achieve in this country. The hon. Gentleman might like to create unemployment with extra social costs, but I wish to price people back into jobs by generating investment.