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Commons Chamber

Volume 337: debated on Tuesday 2 November 1999

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House Of Commons

Tuesday 2 November 1999

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

Prayers

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

CITY OF LONDON (WARD ELECTIONS) BILL (By Order)

Order for further consideration, as amended, read.

To be considered on Tuesday 9 November.

Oral Answers To Questions

Foreign And Commonwealth Affairs

The Secretary of State was asked

Drugs

1.

If he will make a statement about his Department's actions this year to combat the drugs trade. [95030]

This year, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has continued to co-ordinate the international elements of the United Kingdom's national drugs strategy. With other Departments, our efforts are primarily targeted at reducing the production and trafficking of class A drugs to the UK, and at increasing the effectiveness of other countries' anti-drugs efforts.

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for that reply, and welcome him to his position; I wish him well with his new portfolio.

I note my hon. Friend's comments on the production and trafficking of drugs. There is a perception that bravado and glamour are associated with foreign drug barons. Can my hon. Friend assure me that everything will be done by the Foreign Office to deal with those drug barons? The perception of glamour and bravado associated with them manifests itself in the form of murder, beatings, violence, intimidation, fear and real terrorism on the streets of my constituency—indeed, throughout Scotland and the United Kingdom.

I thank my hon. Friend for the way in which he has raised this matter. It is now one that none of us, as constituency Members of Parliament, can ignore. In the Foreign Office, for our part, we have already contributed about £5.9 million this year to anti-drugs measures that support practical international projects to tackle the problem in the transit countries and to break off the supply lines of heroin and cocaine. Yes it is important, as my hon. Friend suggests, that we tackle the source and supply of drugs, but we must also address the money laundering that rides on the back of that.

Is the Minister aware of the astonishing growth in the drugs trans-shipment trade through the Caribbean? It was recently estimated that the amount of drugs being trafficked through the West Indian islands and Guyana is equivalent to the gross domestic product of all the English-speaking territories in the Caribbean—the implication being that that hugely undermines good governance in those countries. Will the Minister tell us why he is withdrawing British technical officials from the police forces and Customs services of the dependent territories, thus not supporting the islands sufficiently to enable them to retain their alternative employment based on bananas?

I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a great interest in development matters and is holding conversations about the budget of the Department for International Development, to which the special projects refer. I can only say that, as far as I am aware, within the budget of the Foreign Office there are collaborative, co-operative projects—especially in the transit countries and in countries such as Colombia—to tackle the problems and to work with the local authorities and security services to do what we can.

The hon. Gentleman might be encouraged and interested to learn that the seizure figures in Britain are increasing massively. In 1996, 740 kg of heroin were seized; in 1998, the amount was 990 kg. In 1996, 1,150 kg of cocaine were seized; in 1998, 2,800 kg. I shall hold further conversations with my colleagues in the Department for International Development about the points raised by the hon. Gentleman, but I emphasise the fact that the Government take the matter extremely seriously. We shall work to break off the supplies and, where practical, we shall look into alternative production.

My hon. Friend will be aware that, last week, one of my constituents was released from prison in Goa on a drugs charge of which he was not guilty. I thank the Foreign Office for the support that was given. However, although we are rightly keeping up a drive against the supply of drugs, can we continue to give support to our citizens abroad when they are wrongly charged in such incidents?

Again, basic justice is precisely the point for the staff of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office abroad; they offer support and consider the justice of particular cases. There will be occasions when people are wrongly charged.

I am also encouraged by a case that is before the court in my own constituency of Leeds. Drugs—120 kg of cocaine—were allegedly brought out of Colombia. They were picked up in a Land Rover; people were charged and are currently on trial. That results from the kind of international co-operation that we want in the future.

Pakistan

2.

If he will make a statement on British relations with Pakistan. [95031]

Britain is a friend of Pakistan, with which we have many historic, family and commercial ties. We have followed with concern events in Pakistan over the past year, and are dismayed by last month's military coup. We will work closely with our colleagues in the Commonwealth to press for an early and credible timetable for the restoration of democracy to the people of Pakistan. It is important also to many of our other friends around the world that the international community does not provide any signal that it is willing to condone the military overthrow of a constitutional Government.

Is it not true that the right hon. Gentleman's claim to be a friend of Pakistan will ring hollow because he has rushed to judgment without a full appreciation of the circumstances? Will he please bear in mind the interests of the people of Pakistan? Is it not a fact that the impoverishment of Pakistan has been at the heart of that country's political problems? Will not Pakistan be further impoverished by the arbitrary cut-off of British development aid? If Pakistan were suspended from the Commonwealth, as Her Majesty' Government seem to want, how would that improve relations with India? How will it affect the situation of Pakistanis in this country, who owe their ability to vote in elections and to join the civil service, the armed forces or the police to their Commonwealth nationality?

The decision that has been taken is not to suspend Pakistan's membership of the Commonwealth, but to suspend it from the councils of the Commonwealth. The hon. Gentleman should reflect on the final point I made. Far from our being alone on the issue, the attitude of most other Commonwealth countries was far more vigorous than ours precisely because they do not want to give the signal—which the hon. Gentleman is in danger of providing—that military coups are acceptable in certain circumstances.

On Saturday, I saw Mr. Axworthy, the leader of the Commonwealth mission to Pakistan, who had returned with a recommendation that Pakistan should be monitored closely by the Commonwealth to determine whether there has been a return to democracy; further decisions will flow from that. In the meantime, we shall maintain dialogue with Pakistan and maintain pressure on the Government of Pakistan to restore the democracy that they have taken away. However, we cannot continue business as usual as though nothing in Pakistan had changed.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is considerable support among Pakistanis for the change in Pakistan and that that feeling is the result of the failure of Pakistan's elected Governments to provide transparent and good governance? Does he also agree that the imposition of sanctions, the withdrawal of aid and the isolation of Pakistan will not help to restore democracy in Pakistan, but will ensure that people who already face misery will have to endure greater hardship?

Of course it is the case that politicians in Pakistan have badly let down the people who elected them. [Interruption.] I am glad that I have the support of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow).

It is true that many members of the Pakistani community have welcomed the disappearance of the Sharif regime. We are calling not for the restoration of the Sharif regime but for the restoration of democracy so that the people of Pakistan, not Pakistan's military, decide who is to rule them. Although it might be true that some of the elected politicians of Pakistan have not provided the democracy, prosperity and accountability that was wanted, the record of military regimes in Pakistan is, on the whole, even worse.

The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the Sharif Government removed the President of Pakistan, deposed the chief justice and kicked out the army chief; and Sharif then appointed cronies to be judges and provincial governors and to other positions of power—he even had his thugs storm the Supreme Court to prevent it from hearing corruption charges against him. Why did the Foreign Secretary take an immediate decision to remove from the Musharraf regime support that he had provided to Prime Minister Sharif's corrupt and dishonest regime?

The principle at stake is that it is for the people of Pakistan to make up their own mind, and the place to do that is at the ballot box. There will be many friends of Britain throughout Africa and Asia who are dismayed to learn that the modern Tory party endorses a military coup.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, although none of us condones or approves of the way in which the government of Pakistan was changed, it is essential that we help the people of Pakistan to achieve a democratic Government, free from the corruption and intolerance that characterised their previous Government? We must not penalise the people of Pakistan, but positively support their efforts to achieve the democracy that I know my right hon. Friend wants.

I assure my hon. Friend that we are maintaining humanitarian aid, which can be channelled through non-governmental organisations, and that much of our aid to Pakistan falls into that category. We cannot do business as normal with a military regime, but we are certainly willing to work with its leaders to restore democracy. The Commonwealth mission made it clear that help would be available, and the regime's leaders will be judged on whether they take advantage of the assistance, guidance and funding that will be provided to help to restore democracy.

Jordan

3.

If he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy on the supply of arms to Jordan. [95032]

We have a close and positive relationship with Jordan and admire the way in which King Abdullah has conducted the first months of his reign. Britain has long been a traditional supplier of arms and military training to the Jordanian armed forces.

The Minister will know that the tank refurbishment facility in my constituency is currently refurbishing Challenger tanks, which were probably built in Leeds, for sale to Jordan. I do not object to that, but what assurances has he received that those tanks will not be passed to Iraq? We know that British armaments were passed to Iraq via Jordan during the Iraqi war.

Up to 288 Challenger tanks have been offered to the Jordanians, who have long been allies and a force for stability and moderation in the region. Some 14 of the tanks have been handed over by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence who is in the region at the moment. We are absolutely certain that the tanks will not be passed to the Iraqi regime—although such things occurred under the previous Conservative Government.

Middle East

4.

If he will make a statement on the current state of the middle east peace process. [95033]

I visited both Israel and the Palestinian Authority last week. I was encouraged by the evidence of progress in implementing the Sharm el-Sheikh agreement, such as the opening of the southern safe passage from Gaza to the west bank on which I travelled during my visit. Many serious issues remain to be resolved if both parties are to fulfil the ambitious timetable of concluding final status talks within a year, but I was impressed that this time the Israeli leadership as well as the Palestinian Authority want to make a success of the peace process.

I am pleased to report to the House that, while in Israel, I opened an educational centre named in memory of our late colleague, Derek Fatchett. All parts of the House will appreciate the warmth and affection with which he is remembered for his work to encourage both sides to come together.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Following the sixth anniversary of the signing of the Oslo agreement and my right hon. Friend's successful visit to Israel last week, does he agree that if the final status talks falter in the run-up to next September's deadline, Britain is uniquely placed to act as an honest broker in those talks? In the words of The Times editorial of last week, London could be a very effective back channel for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

Both parties whom I met in the middle east recognise that Britain is a friend of the peace process and a natural voice of the peace process within the wider European Union. Both parties are anxious that the peace process should be paralleled with opening trade links with the European Union in order to secure a real economic peace dividend for the citizens of the Palestinian Authority.

We will do anything we can to assist in taking the dialogue forward. We are particularly keen to ensure that there is communication with Syria so that the Syrian and Lebanese tracks can also continue. However, I remind the House that back channels are best kept secret if they are to work.

Is it the Government's view that a successful outcome of the middle east peace process will be the creation of an independent Palestinian state?

Along with our partners in the European Union, we stand ready to consider recognising a Palestinian state. As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, the Berlin declaration made clear the Palestinian people's right to an independent state. The picture painted by both sides of the likely outcome could be recognised only as creating a Palestinian state. We will certainly ensure that the Palestinian Authority has the necessary institutions and is ready to take over and run any such entity.

Following his successful visit, can my right hon. Friend assure the House that, on a day when the parties are again assembling in Oslo, the plight of the Palestinian refugees who are based mainly in Lebanon will not be forgotten? Will my right hon. Friend and his colleagues do what they can to ensure that, while we do not seek a long agenda for the final status negotiations, we do not forget the role and the plight of the Palestinian refugees?

I visited one of the camps of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency while I was in Gaza. I was moved by the conditions in the camp and by the enormously strong spirit of the children and their hopes for the future. UNRWA particularly appreciates the fact that Britain has accelerated its donations this year in order to avert the financial crisis that it would otherwise have faced. My hon. Friend is right to say that the position of the refugees must be included in any final status agreement, and particular attention should be given to refugees in Lebanon who have suffered most from being the least integrated into the local economy.

Eu Reform

5.

What discussions he has held with the President of the European Commission on proposals for reforms to EU institutions and decision—making procedures. [95034]

I regularly discuss institutional reform with colleagues both in the Commission and in other member states. In all these discussions, Britain has argued that the forthcoming intergovernmental conference should be focused on the issues that must be resolved before the next enlargement can take place. Britain has a clear national interest in securing a shift in the weighting of votes in the Council of Ministers more fairly to represent population.

I called recently on Vice-President Kinnock to congratulate him on the progress that he has been making in reforming the Commission, including a code of conduct for Commissioners and the abolition of national quotas for senior Commission staff. His reforms will produce a more efficient and more accountable Commission and will no doubt be welcomed by the right hon. Gentleman and all other Members who wish the European Union to be a success.

With which of the recent pronouncements by the President of the Commission on institutional and decision-making reform does the Foreign Secretary disagree?

It is perfectly clear that in the intergovernmental conference, the framing of the treaty and the framework of the discussions will be run by member states. Before every IGC there is a proposal by the President of the Commission, but it does not shape what comes afterwards. I look forward with interest to what Commissioner Prodi has to say, but that will not deflect me from pursuing the British national interest.

Is it not clear that institutions devised more than 50 years ago for a small group of six countries are not working today for 15 countries and that they will certainly not work when, as we hope, the European Union is enlarged to 20? They would result only in gridlock or immobilism, which is what the enemies of Europe want. Can my right hon. Friend say, in response to the new expert report, whether he agrees that institutional reform should be a comprehensive process—not the two-stage process envisaged in the Amsterdam protocol—and that it is urgent? I hope that it can be completed by the end of the French presidency next year.

My hon. Friend refers to the enlargement of the European Union. Of course, that enlargement will pose questions for the shape of institutions, but, at the same time, it is important that we secure it. That is why we wish to see the forthcoming IGC focus narrowly on those issues that it is necessary to resolve so that enlargement can proceed. Those issues were set out at Amsterdam where it was made quite clear that enlargement cannot happen without those reforms. That is why it is so odd that the Conservative party has apparently pledged itself to vetoing the IGC if it does not get its way. That would make Tory foreign policy as unpopular in central and eastern Europe as it already is in western Europe.

The Foreign Secretary knows that there are proposals in many quarters for serious and major extensions to qualified majority voting as part of the institutional reform needed for enlargement of the union. Can he confirm that the Government are committed to maintaining our national veto in matters of defence, tax and border controls?

That is what I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would say. Can he then confirm that, if the enlargement treaty that results from next year's intergovernmental conference contains provisions for qualified majority voting in any of those areas, the Government will not sign it?

We do not anticipate for one minute that we will be confronted with that. Very few other countries would support the proposal that the hon. Gentleman has put to me. On this, we are with the great mainstream in the European Union.

I am not dodging the question. I do not expect to come back to the House and report that we have accepted a treaty that contains those provisions, and I do not expect that other members in Europe will ask us to do so.

I am not wriggling at all. I have made it quite plain what our position is and what I expect the outcome of the treaty to be.

However, the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maples) should consider whether he can name one other nation in Europe that supports his policy of a pick and mix Europe. He needs unanimity to get such a policy through, and he cannot find even one supporter. His policy will plainly produce a crisis in Europe. It is no wonder that, since he produced the policy, the majority of the electorate have said that they are even less likely to vote Tory than they were before.

Does the Foreign Secretary agree that, if there were no changes whatever to decision making in the European Union, for which the Conservative party appears to argue, enlargement would not take place? If that is the Conservatives' policy, they ought to front up and be honest about such an outcome. Does he also agree that if we adopted the Conservative party's pick and mix approach to which EU decisions we were prepared to agree to, we would never get the beef ban lifted?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the beef ban would not have been lifted if the decision had been based on a veto. Indeed, one reason why we did not achieve the reforms to the agricultural policy that we sought is that the Agriculture Council proceeds on qualified majority voting, and the European summit on unanimity. My hon. Friend is right to say that there will have to be significant changes to procedures and decision making in the EU, but I give the House a guarantee that we will never agree to anything like the wide raft of expansion of QMV to which the Conservatives agreed when they were in government.

When considering the case for reform, will the Foreign Secretary have regard to the need to ensure the effectiveness of both the Commission and the European Court, without which the prospect of British beef being exported to France and Germany would be extremely remote? Does he for a moment consider that, in this instance, it is a matter of great regret that neither the Commission nor the Court has any jurisdiction over the United States and Canada?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman points up the plainly true lesson that we must learn from the dispute: because we are members of the EU we have remedies, which are being put into practice even now. We do not have such remedies in other states around the world, which is why we have not been able to shift America from its beef ban since 1989. The tale demonstrates the case for being inside Europe and how Britain would be damaged by the Opposition's policy of endangering Britain's membership of the EU. We are better leading in Europe than leaving Europe.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the need for change to the institutional structure in order to allow enlargement must be recognised not only by existing European Union member states and all parties of any significance in them, but by all countries that want to join? Therefore, should not people who purport to support enlargement recognise that such institutional change must be brought about?

If my hon. Friend is referring to the Opposition's purported support of enlargement, such support sits oddly with their commitment to veto an IGC that is necessary for enlargement. He is correct to say that countries that are seeking to join the EU want to join one that is efficient and forward looking and that gives them the same opportunity of open markets that we enjoy. They would view with incomprehension the Euro-sceptics in Britain who want to get off the bus at the very time that they are trying to join it.

Yugoslavia

7.

If he will make a statement on sanctions applying to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. [95036]

The European Union and the United Nations maintain a broad range of sanctions against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. They were mostly imposed in response to the atrocities carried out in Kosovo by the federal republic authorities, and remain in place as part of the international effort to promote democratic reform in the federal republic.

Would a Yugoslav Government, whose democracy was based on the Chinese model, be deemed acceptable for the lifting of sanctions?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the purpose of sanctions is to ensure that we promote democratic change in the federal republic. They are tough measures that are designed to make it clear to the authorities that we are against their proposals. On the question of China, one must consider such matters case by case.

Does my hon. Friend agree that Serbia holds the key to peace and democracy not just in Kosovo but in the whole Balkan region? Will he assure me that the Government will do all in their power to ensure that Serbia changes its ways, joins us, adopts western values and becomes a democracy?

It is the Government's wish that the countries of the Balkans should join the European mainstream, but we can never have peace and stability in the Balkans with the likes of Milosevic in control of Serbia. That is why we have a targeted sanctions approach. That is why organisations, including the European Union and the United Nations, are working together to ensure that there is democracy, peace and stability in the local area.

But does the Minister agree that a Balkan winter is as cold for Serbs as it is for Kosovan Albanians? If there is a shortage of fuel for heating in Serbia this winter because generating capacity was hit by the Balkan conflict, will he take steps to amend the sanctions regime to ensure that that does not happen?

The Government are working with the European Union to ensure that as much humanitarian aid as possible is provided. That is why the European Commission has put aside 50 million euro for humanitarian purposes, and that is why organisations such as Energy for Democracy are working to ensure that heating is supplied to local people.

Palestinian Authority

8.

If he will make a statement on the British Government's support for economic development in the Palestinian Authority area. [95038]

We are providing £50 million in bilateral aid over the next three years, including £24 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. We have also established the Derek Fatchett memorial fund to finance studies by Palestinian students. In view of the high esteem in which Derek Fatchett was held across the House, I am sure that that will be widely welcomed.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he join me in welcoming this month's Labour Friends of Israel-inspired summit, involving Palestinian and Israeli trade unionists, held here in the United Kingdom, to foster a sense of trust and allow them to discuss how best to bring inward investment into that region? What more can the UK Government and the European Union do to ensure that such initiatives become much more widespread, and deliver peace and security for the people of Israel, and peace and a new prosperity for the people of the Palestinian Authority?

I very much welcome that initiative, which is being hosted by the Trades Union Congress. That is exactly the type of initiative that promotes partnership and progress, and increases respect between Palestinians and Israelis. In future, Israel and the new Palestine will need to live together in peace and stability. We hope that there will be further such initiatives—possibly supported, as they could be, by the $400 million of European aid that is due to be provided to the area during the next four years.

Departmental Recruitment

9.

What measures he is taking to open up recruitment to his Department to people from a wider social background. [95039]

Our policies aim to draw on the very best of Britain's diverse society by recruiting on merit more people from ethnic minorities and more with disabilities, and to increase the number of women at senior levels in the Foreign Office.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, and welcome him to his new post.

I appreciate the amount of work that has been done to encourage people from a wider range of backgrounds to consider careers in the Foreign Office, but will he consider extending the work that has been done, especially with young people, to target careers teaching in inner-city schools and in schools in the centre of constituencies such as mine, where there is no tradition of considering such careers but where there is a vast pool of underused talent? Perhaps he will tell me how long it might be before I hear a few Warrington accents in the Foreign Office.

I think there might be at least one such accent in the Foreign Office at present, but I welcome the points made by my hon. Friend. We are determined, as a Government, to open up the Foreign Office to as broad a section of society as possible, so that people join the Foreign Office on merit and are given every opportunity to do so. As a result of these initiatives, more and more women are being promoted to senior positions in the Foreign Office, which is encouraging. The open days that have been held—one took place last week—have brought into the Foreign Office some 3,000 young people who could possibly be recruited in future.

Is the Minister aware that Conservative Members believe that recruiting on merit more women, people from the ethnic minorities and those with disabilities to the Foreign Office is a thoroughly worthwhile cause, even though the Foreign Secretary's pursuit of it has been characteristically inept? If the hon. Gentleman accepts the good faith of Conservative Members, will he go further and agree that, in addition to recruiting a great many others, the Foreign Office should be keen to recruit as many as possible of the outstanding products of the magnificent remaining grammar schools, which are the beacons of excellence in our society today?

As I am in a charitable mood, I shall accept the good faith of Opposition Members. We are determined to recruit on merit. We want people from all class and ethnic backgrounds, from right across the country and with all sorts of accents, to come and join the Foreign Office to represent Britain at home and abroad.

Kenya

10.

What assessment he has made of recent changes in the Kenya Administration in relation to democracy building. [95040]

In my meetings with him on 13 October in Nairobi and in London on 29 October, President Moi made it clear that he was leading Kenya's new economic recovery strategy to root out corruption and inefficiency and to extend democracy. We support that and want it implemented quickly and in full.

During a recess visit to Kenya under the excellent leadership of my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), I found a country beset with internal problems—problems of poverty, infrastructure breakdown and crime—many of them caused by a lack of probity in Government or economic mismanagement. Does my hon. Friend believe that the appointment of a few technocrats, no matter how distinguished they are, to senior official positions is sufficient to tackle the problems, or is it merely tinkering and placing excessively high expectations on those individuals?

I, too, was grateful for the briefing given to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) following the visit. I understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Chapman) that this may be another false start in Kenya, as there have been a number of false starts. However, there is no doubt that the economic recovery strategy, including a determination to root out corruption and to reform the parastatals and the entire public procurement policy, is being led vigorously by President Moi and his Cabinet Secretary, Richard Leakey, who has a high reputation in that regard. There are several high-quality new appointments at permanent secretary level, some of whom I have met and who have come in from the private sector. Kenya has drifted into a serious state of decline and crisis. We want to work with the Government there to ensure that it emerges as quickly as possible.

Does the Minister think that a good way to improve democracy and human rights in Kenya would be to invite the Kenyan President to Britain on a state visit and then for the Foreign Office to conspire with the police to suppress demonstrators, take away their banners and—

Order. I was rather expecting that. The question is about Kenya, and I should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would stay with that subject.

I was suggesting that the Government might invite the Kenyan President to Britain and behave in that way, using police vans to hide demonstrators from the President, and scour the history books for some ancient byelaw that would allow the Government to declare demonstrations illegal.

I expected a longer answer from a Minister who built his political career on being a student demonstrator. He was the Peter Pan of student activists for a very long time. Does he realise what kind of message the conduct of the Government during that visit sends to countries such as Kenya—that the Government, who claim to put human rights and democracy at the top of their agenda, are prepared to suppress even the right of free speech in Britain, so as not to offend a foreign Government? Would not Kenya rightly conclude that the Government's so-called ethical foreign policy means lecturing the small and weak, while kowtowing obsequiously to the big and strong?

Such artificial incandescence from the Opposition Front Bench was to be expected. May I inform the hon. Gentleman that I met President Moi in London last Friday, and that I was happy to do so? I will take no lectures from hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Front Bench whose party, when it was in government, ignored human rights across the world, conspired with almost every dictatorship across the world that repressed its own people, and in the case of Kenya, allowed denials of human rights, attacks on democracy, increasing economic decline and the spread of corruption to go on year after year and did nothing about it. We are taking that agenda on and working with the Government of Kenya to promote human rights and economic recovery.

Is my hon. Friend aware that if Kenya is to maintain its democracy—a cause that the House of Commons should pursue devoutly, not treat as a light political ploy—it is important that it maintains its trade with Great Britain and with other European countries? Will he please keep a close eye on the negotiations relating to the Kenyan flour industry, which not only provides many jobs, but puts money into areas that previously were famine stricken? If that industry is lost to Kenya, many people will be in dire financial straits.

I agree with my hon. Friend, and we shall certainly do as she asks. We regard Kenya as one of the leading African nations. It should be restored to that leadership after being dragged down over the past 10 to 20 years. It is vital for the regeneration of east Africa— and of Africa as a whole, which is in a dire plight—that Kenya emerges from this situation and is able to play that leading democratic and economically successful role.

I do not believe that President Moi would recognise that caricature of the policy employed by my noble Friend Baroness Chalker when she was responsible for policy towards Kenya. As the Minister clearly believes the reassurance that he has received from President Moi, how long will he give him to come good on his promises?

We are monitoring the situation and working closely with the Kenyan Government in respect of their negotiations with the international financial institutions. For example, if an international finance loan were to become available—should the International Monetary Fund be satisfied at its board meeting that will take place shortly that the eligibility conditions have been met—we have made it clear that we would expect to see stage by stage progress as each tranche of loan support was released. If that progress was not forthcoming, the situation would be reviewed. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development has made clear, the same goes for increases in aid, to which we are committed providing that Kenya continues to make the progress that it has promised. I have been given absolutely categorical assurances by the President that he is committed to the programme and we shall obviously be monitoring the situation closely.

Africa

11.

If he will initiate new steps to improve conflict resolution procedures in Africa. [95041]

We are working closely with the Organisation of African Unity and the United Nations to find peaceful and lasting solutions to Africa's current conflicts, especially in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sierra Leone, Ethiopia and Eritrea, Sudan and Angola.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. I am sure that he is aware of the recent UN report highlighting the fact that 200 million people in Africa are undernourished and that Africa is the only continent where poverty is expected to increase in the next century. As his reply suggests, he will also be aware that thousands of women and children have recently lost their lives in the Angolan civil war. Can he expand his comments a little, particularly on the situation in Angola and how our Government are helping African countries to tackle their internal disputes and border conflicts?

After years of policy neglect of Africa and its needs by the Conservative Government, we have put African policy to the top of the international agenda. We are working with other European countries, the United States and, in particular, France to forge a new African agenda. I agree with my hon. Friend that the situation in Angola is dire and continues to be so, which is a reason why our decision to lead the world in banning landmines was absolutely vital. We shall continue to press for tight sanctions on UNITA as well as on the Angolan Government to make sure that they invest in their people and ensure that Government support goes to them and not into the back pockets of an elite at the top.

Does the Minister agree that the proliferation of arms in Africa is a major cause of instability, which leads to conflict? What progress has he made with our European partners on the control of arms brokers' activities?

The hon. Lady raises an important issue, because Africa is plagued by millions of small arms, which destroy countries and promote internal conflict. We are working with our European partners to deal with that problem. I particularly welcome the west African small arms moratorium. A few weeks ago in Kenya I discussed with the Foreign Minister that country's initiative to host a conference next year to tackle the problem of small arms in east and central Africa. We shall work with Kenya and other African countries to achieve that.

Does the Minister agree that arms control is the key to conflict resolution? Does he further agree that we need greater co-ordination between the Foreign Office, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Defence so that the Government may make some progress on their stated aims on those issues?

I agree with my hon. Friend, which is why we are co-ordinating our policy closely with both the MOD and the DTI. We are also working to promote conflict resolution and to provide peacekeeping support in Sierra Leone and, when it is opportune to do so, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Peace and stability are vital if the conflicts in that region are to be resolved, and we shall do everything that we can to achieve that.

Reparations (Germany)

12.

If he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy towards reparations being paid to those who were used as slave labour in camps operated by Nazi Germany during the Second World War. [95042]

We welcome the German Government's decision to organise, with German business, a fund to provide compensation for former forced and slave labourers who suffered under the Nazi regime. We are in touch with the German and other Governments, and have made it clear that we would expect equal access to the fund, when it is set up, for UK citizens who are eligible for such compensation.

The Government will be aware that there are between 500,000 and 1 million such slave labour survivors from the war. The German companies involved have made one somewhat derisory offer so far, and another offer is expected in the near future. Will the Government use all their endeavours to ensure that that offer is fair? Will they very diplomatically suggest to the new German ambassador that, if Germany wants Britain to forget the past and to look to the present and the future, this is just the sort of injustice that needs to be settled?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are not directly involved in the negotiations between the American lawyers and the German Government. As he says, the Germans made an offer of $2 billion, which was rejected by the Americans, and those negotiations are on-going. We have made it plain to all those involved that we take a keen interest in those matters. Indeed, the UK has taken a lead on this issue. In December 1997. my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary convened the Nazi gold conference, which resulted in the UK donating £1 million to that cause—18 other countries donated a total of $60 million—and that money has been allocated. On this issue, if the interests of UK citizens are at stake, we shall make our views perfectly plain. We welcome what Chancellor Schröder has done. It is an important step forward and we hope that the negotiations will be successful.

Iraq

13.

If he will make a statement on the progress of discussions with the UN Security Council with regard to Iraq. [95043]

Britain continues to take the lead in brokering agreement on a new Security Council resolution on Iraq. We have made steady progress over six months of painstaking diplomacy, and our proposals are now supported by nine of the 10 non-permanent members. We have reached agreement on most of the earlier detailed points of difference, including those among permanent members of the Council. The resolution would provide for a major improvement in the humanitarian condition of the Iraqi people and the restoration of inspection and monitoring on the ground in Iraq, and would set out what Iraq must do to secure first the suspension, and then the lifting of sanctions. We believe that the revised draft provides the best basis for restoring consensus on Iraq within the Security Council.

I thank the Secretary of State for his response. Will he explain why the negotiations are taking so long? Is he confident that our proposals, if adopted, will begin to reduce the number of child deaths in Iraq, which have risen from 56 per 1,000 in 1989 to 131 per 1,000 in the period 1994–99?

I must be honest with the hon. Gentleman and tell him that these negotiations are taking some time because we are trying to broker agreement between member states that have different perspectives on this matter. We are nearly there. We have worked hard, and it would be wrong to rush the introduction of the resolution until there is consensus rather than division.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be a significant increase in immediate humanitarian funds available to Iraq. With co-operation, there is the prospect of an increase in oil output as a result of the provision for investment by the oil industry in repairing Iraq's oil infrastructure.

The main culprit for the poor state of child health in Iraq is Saddam Hussein. It is striking to note that the child death rates are much higher in the parts of Iraq controlled by Saddam Hussein than they are in the areas of northern Iraq where the United Nations have intervened.

My right hon. Friend may be aware of the important conference in New York this weekend organised by the United States Government. It was attended by 400 Iraqi opposition members from all over the world, who discussed the problems in Iraq. American politicians made their strongest statement yet on the indictment and prosecution of Saddam Hussein and his regime before an international criminal tribunal. Ambassador Scheffer, the ambassador for war crimes, said that there was no reason why the UN Security Council should not actively pursue that matter right away as there was no need to wait. Does my right hon. Friend agree with that view, and will we take up that call for Saddam Hussein's indictment and prosecution at the UN Security Council as soon as possible?

I applaud my hon. Friend's work on the indictment campaign, for which she has had the full support of the Foreign Office. A war crimes tribunal on Iraq would require consensus in the Security Council. We would be willing to support any realistic proposal that had a prospect of success, but we do not at present detect a consensus in the Security Council for a war crimes tribunal on Iraq. For the time being, I am anxious not to divert our diplomatic energy away from securing the resolution on humanitarian relief and the inspection regime on the ground in Iraq.

Saddam Hussein continues to pose a threat to security and peace in the middle east. What is the Foreign Secretary's assessment of where the Iraqi arms programme has got to in the absence of the UNSCOM inspection programme?

As the hon. Gentleman may know, it is difficult to be certain about what is happening on the ground in Iraq. That is why our resolution provides for the return of inspection and monitoring on the ground, and sets out a road map by which Iraq can secure the suspension of sanctions by co-operating with that inspection. However, we have no reason to believe that, over the months since Operation Desert Fox, the picture has changed radically. Saddam Hussein was trying to acquire a chemical and biological capability. Operation Desert Fox set back his capacity to deliver that capability.

Kosovo

14.

What progress is being made with the reconstruction of Kosovo. [95044]

Assessment of the needs for reconstruction assistance have been carried out by the World bank and the European Commission, which are leading the international effort on the reconstruction of Kosovo. Their findings will be presented to a donors conference on 17 November. We fully support the efforts of the United Nations, the European Union and the Stability Pact for South-East Europe in their reconstruction efforts.

I congratulate the Government on their humanitarian relief programme, and on the reconstruction work that has taken place. What progress is being made with the longer-term solutions to this problem, and with the economic and social reform that is necessary if there is to be real stability in Kosovo and in the region?

I recognise my hon. Friend's interest in this matter, and I know that he has visited the region twice. At the last donors conference, the sum of $2.1 billion was set aside for support in Kosovo. The United Kingdom Government have given £10.65 million for emergency aid and restructuring, and the European Union has put aside 615 million euros. The reconstruction process goes on. It is right that we should concentrate on the infrastructure—schools, hospitals and the utilities—and that is what the United Nations and the EU representatives are doing. We shall ensure that the process continues.

I am sure the Minister will agree that the reconstruction will be not just physical, but in terms of trust between the various people living in Kosovo. In that context, can he throw any light on the alarmist and sensationalist claims in newspapers during recent weeks relating to whether atrocities were actually perpetrated during the conflict?

I do not normally comment on articles in The Sunday Times. The hon. Gentleman will be aware, however, that it was because of the atrocities committed in Kosovo that the allied forces took the actions that they took. The estimates that we have given in the past are, as far as we are concerned, accurate. We will continue to go along with the various examinations that are taking place, but it was because of the civilian casualties—because of the atrocities—that the British Government, the European Union and the United Nations acted as they did.

Albania

15.

If he will make a statement about Britain's relations with Albania. [95046]

Bilateral relations with Albania are excellent. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a visit in May this year during the Kosovo crisis. We will continue to work to develop relations at all levels.

I should like to take this opportunity to express our gratitude to former Prime Minister Majko, who resigned last week, for the contribution that his Government made to the resolution of the Kosovo crisis and to the development of relations between our two countries. We wish his successor, Prime Minister Meta, every success, and trust that he will pursue the sensible policies of his predecessor.

I thank the Minister for his reply.

During a recent visit to Albania, we in the all-party Anglo-Albanian group saw a country struggling to establish democracy in the most difficult circumstances, while coping with mass unemployment resulting from the crash transition to a market economy, coping with the effects of the civil war in Kosovo, coping with trafficking in drugs, prostitution and arms, and coping with the fact that many of its social institutions were in a state of collapse. Will the Minister ensure that, while the international community concentrates—understandably—on Kosovo, Albania's needs are not forgotten? In particular, will he assure us that he will continue to support efforts to establish democracy and a renewal of civil society in that country?

I am glad to learn that my hon. Friend has visited Albania. I am due to meet him and his colleagues in the all-party group later in the week. He is absolutely right: we must continue to support on-going efforts in Albania to ensure that democracy is strengthened, and that trade and co-operation continue. That is why the European Union established the stabilisation and association agreements—precisely to ensure that countries such as Albania become part of the European mainstream. We will continue the efforts that we are making.

As my hon. Friend knows, the Department for International Development has allocated £5 million to help with technical assistance and the establishment of civil government. We as a Government welcome the support that we have received from Albania. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited Albania on 18 May, and we will continue to work with the country, because we need its support and it needs our support.

Does the Minister agree that the work of the British Council and the BBC World Service is key to our relations with Albania and, indeed, the wider Balkan community? When I worked for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe monitoring the 1996 elections in Albania, the World Service was the sole voice of reason. What additional support will the Minister give the World Service and the British Council, to further their work in the region?

I can certainly give the World Service and the British Council the Government's full support. As a former vice-chairman of the British Council, I recognise the enormous amount of work that has been done. I am happy, and the Government are happy, to support the continued efforts that those organisations have made to ensure that the voices of reason and democracy are heard in the Balkans.

Eu Reform

16.

What response he has sent to recent proposals by an independent commission for reform of the EU institutions. [95047]

The Dehaene report is an advisory document, feeding ideas into the Commission's internal thinking on the intergovernmental conference. It is for the Commission, not the Government, to decide how to react to its proposals.

Does the Minister agree that it is very much in the interests of the central and eastern European applicant countries and of the future governance of the European Union itself that arrangements should be made to concentrate on doing what is necessary properly to respect the subsidiarity principle, and to reject the centralising tendency of the gang of three?

Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman, who has only recently entered the Chamber, was not in the House to hear the points of principle that were made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who reaffirmed our commitment to an IGC that is short and focused. Of course, enlargement will make a tremendous difference to the European Union—to the applicant countries and to the Union itself. Therefore, it is important that we look carefully at the way in which the IGC is to operate.

I congratulate the new Minister with responsibility for Europe on his appointment. It is the first opportunity that I have had to do so formally. I have no doubt that his renowned patience and good humour will be much needed in the difficult treaty negotiations ahead.

In the light of the formative implications for the EU and for this country's constitution of the treaty negotiations, will the Government undertake—as the previous Government did prior to Amsterdam—to set out their intentions in full, before any negotiations, in the form of a White Paper, for proper discussion by the House?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments. I wish that I could respond in the same happy vein.

The trouble with the hon. Gentleman is that he sees the European Commission as a branch of Asda. He cannot just pick and choose which bits of the Commission he wants. It is clear that the Government will set out their proposals properly—as they always have—at the time of the IGC.

Point Of Order

3.32 pm

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. A fortnight ago, I applied for an Adjournment debate on the reconstruction of Yugoslavia and, by some magic, you gave me the debate for last night, 1 November. The application was to the Foreign Office, not to the Department for International Development. As it happened, on a whole number of questions last night, the Minister answering for the DFID, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Development, said, "You really have to ask the Foreign Office or the Ministry of Defence."

When you give a Member an Adjournment debate, do you have any say about which Department replies? Can you insist that it is the Department to which that Adjournment debate is addressed? I notice that Question 6, which was accepted by the Table Office, asks:
"What assessment he has made of the reconstruction programme in Kosovo".
Reconstruction was the reason that was given by the Under-Secretary of State for International Development for his replying in the debate, but it seems that it was properly addressed to the Foreign Office.

I should like to correct two or three points that the hon. Gentleman has raised. I am a very generous Speaker, but I do not allocate Adjournment debates—the only one that I allocate is the Thursday night Adjournment debate. I want to make that clear to the House; my generosity does not stretch to every day. It is done entirely by ballot. The hon. Gentleman was successful, and I am pleased that he was. Which Minister responds to the debate has nothing to do with me. The Government determine the Minister to respond.

Cyclists' Helmets

3.34 pm

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to promote the wearing of protective headgear by cyclists; and for connected purposes.

The impetus for the Bill comes from parents in my constituency who are keen for their children to ride bicycles, as it is good for their health, independence and confidence, and good for the environment, but want them to wear cycle helmets while they do so. While children are young, they are quite prepared to wear cycle helmets. However, just when they reach an age at which they are more independent, and it is possible for them to go out on their own and to cycle to school, they will not wear one. Parents, therefore, will not let them cycle, particularly to school.

Many children have bikes. Nevertheless, although 90 per cent. of junior school children in England own bikes, only one in four are allowed to use a bike as a mode of transport, rather than as merely something on which to play, and only one in 100 use a bike to go to school. Part of the reason for those figures has been elicited by a safe kids campaign organised by the Child Accident Prevention Trust. When mothers were asked what they feared most for their children's safety, 41 per cent. said road accidents involving cyclists or pedestrians.

Annually, about 200 cyclists are killed and 4,500 are seriously injured on Britain's roads. It is, therefore, understandable that parents should impose severe restrictions on their children's use of cycles on public roads. Moreover, the peak ages for cycling-related deaths are five to 24. About 70 per cent. of those killed and 50 per cent. of those seriously injured suffered serious head injury. However, several studies have indicated that wearing a cycle helmet reduces head injuries.

In an often-quoted study—which was reported in the British Medical Journal, in 1994—all cycle accident admissions to Addenbrooke's hospital, Cambridge were recorded over one year. Cambridgeshire has a higher proportion than most counties of those who cycle, and was therefore particularly appropriate for use in the study. The study showed that there were no significant differences between the type of accidents involving helmet wearers and non-helmet wearers, thereby refuting suggestions that helmet wearers are either more reckless or more careful than other cyclists.

The study also showed that there were no differences between the types of injuries sustained—with the exception of head injuries. The fact is that 4 per cent. of helmet wearers sustained injuries, compared with 11 per cent. of non-wearers. Moreover, as the sample size was so large, the results were highly significant. Adjusted results show a protective factor of 3.25 for wearing a helmet. In other words, the odds of head injury were significantly reduced—by a factor of three—for those wearing a helmet.

Additionally, the injuries sustained by those wearing a helmet were less severe. All patients in the study who sustained severe brain injury, including the two deaths that occurred, had not been wearing helmets.

I want to encourage cycling. Our children are becoming less fit, and there is growing concern about childhood obesity. There is also increasing concern about the traffic congestion caused by the so-called school run. I make it clear, however, that I do not seek compulsion to wear a helmet, as compulsion could be counter-productive, at least in the short term. I want children to want to wear helmets.

I also do not put the entire responsibility for safety on cyclists—for whom we need to create a safer cycling environment. We need safe routes to schools, lower speed limits in towns and cities, cycle lanes, better cycling proficiency instruction, and cyclists to be at the forefront of transport and route planning.

I want a much more high-profile campaign, involving information, education and publicity, including mass media publicity by, for example, the Health Education Authority. I want schools, especially secondary schools, to recommend cycle helmets for journeys to and from school and off road. Many cycle injuries are cycle only accidents—in which a rider simply falls off a bike—for which helmets are particularly useful.

I want department stores to stock cycle helmets. Bristol city council recently conducted a survey showing that, usually, cycle helmets were available only from specialist cycle shops. I also want improved helmet design and style.

Teenagers are undoubtedly the group most resistant to helmet wearing—it seems to be an image problem. They think that wearing a helmet looks stupid or uncool, and can give rise to what is now called a "bad hair day", which I am told is a problem for boys as well as girls. I learned recently from some secondary school girls from my constituency that this is clearly more of a problem than it was in my day, and that teenage boys can use industrial quantities of hair gel in pursuit of a good hairdo. We must be able to tell them that it is possible to have a decent hairstyle and wear a helmet.

My hon. Friends the Members for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) and for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) wear cycle helmets, and I am sure that they are well known in their constituencies. However, I hope that it will be possible for the campaign to enlist the support of role models who are more instantly recognised by the young. If, for example, Boyzone's next video showed them wearing cycle helmets while cycling, it might go some way towards encouraging young people to do so as well.

Above all, I want to enable parents positively to encourage their children to be active, mobile and independent. I accept that some cyclists believe that to promote helmet wearing is to pass the blame for a crash from the perpetrator to the victim, but all road users have responsibilities as well as rights. I know that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Nursing, the Child Accident Prevention Trust and the parliamentary advisory committee on transport safety all take the same view. Being able to cycle to school is an important step towards responsibility and independence.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Ms Jean Corston, Mrs. Anne Campbell, Mr. David Drew, Ann Clwyd, Valerie Davey and Fiona Mactaggart.

Cyclists' Helmets

Ms Jean Corston accordingly presented a Bill to promote the wearing of protective headgear by cyclists; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 5 November, and to be printed [Bill 159].

Opposition Day

[14TH ALLOTTED DAY]

Planning

[Relevant documents: Tenth report from the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, Session 1997–98, on Housing (HC495-I) and the Government's response thereto (Cm 4080); and Seventeenth Report from the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, Session 1998–99, on Housing: PPG3 (HC490-I).]

I shall limit Back-Bench speeches to 10 minutes throughout. I have selected the amendment which stands in the name of the Prime Minister.

3.43 pm

I beg to move,

That this House regrets the growing divide between the prosperous and deprived areas of Britain; condemns the run-down of industry and the dereliction of inner city and old industrial areas; urges the Government to put in place better measures to encourage urban and industrial regeneration; vigorously opposes the idea that hundreds of thousands more people will be encouraged to move out of the urban areas into new housing on greenfield sites; further urges the Secretary of State to veto the South East plan for 1.1 million new homes, half on greenfield land, and to warn inspectors not to come to similar conclusions for other parts of the country; reminds the Government that there will be demand for new and better housing in the cities which they should help developers to meet by their planning and renewal policies; and stresses that sustainable development means limiting greenfield housing construction.

Our motion draws attention to yet another great disappointment from the Government. Before the election, we were promised so much. We were promised that the green fields would at last be safe and that not much building, if any, would be needed on them. Miraculously, the Government would bring forward the brownfield sites for development. The face of England would be improved, and it would all be sweetness and light.

Instead, we see a group of people taking a carpet knife to an old master. They are scoring the tapestry of England with their concrete and their plans for a massive invasion of new homes on the green fields.

I am not reading—I am making a speech. I have a few notes, but my speech will get better as it goes along, if the Government provoke me sufficiently. I have not really begun yet. I promise the hon. Gentleman that there will be far more charges against this miserable Government as the debate proceeds. My hon. Friends are here in force today because the issue affects every one of their constituencies. They will be speaking up for their constituents, and we only hope that Labour Members will speak up for theirs. They must know that their constituents do not want their greenfield sites wrecked any more than ours do.

My right hon. Friend mentions our constituents, but does he have in mind also the interests of our councillors? Does he believe that if councillors reflect the view of local people who do not want large developments in their area, those developments should not go ahead?

My hon. Friend has foreseen something that I shall propose later in my speech. As part of our common-sense revolution—which is much needed in this country after two years of this miserable Government—we believe that local authorities in prosperous, low-unemployment areas, such as that for which my hon. Friend speaks, should be able to say no to more housing. We believe that they know best, and that there is no reason to swamp those areas with further house building that they do not want.

If the Conservative party is such a staunch defender of the green belt, why has Rawdon Conservative club in my constituency so vigorously pursued a planning application to build in a special landscape area within the local green belt? Is it because the Tories' attitude to the green belt is dependent on whether they are chasing votes or chasing cash?

The hon. Gentleman must try better than that. If he had been listening to my remarks, he would have heard me say that I believe in local determination, based on local opinions. I am sure that local councillors can come to a better solution than Ministers.

No. The hon. Gentleman had his chance, and he made a mess of it. He does not get a second chance.

The positions set out by Ministers before and after the election have been so different from the reality that people will feel let down and disappointed. On 25 January 1997—a few weeks before the general election—the Minister for the Environment, then the shadow spokesman on these matters, said:
"Above all we must not allow our countryside, our precious green space, to become easy prey to developers and speculators."
How did he have the gall to say that, when he now sits as a Minister in a Department that is contemplating 1.1 million new homes in the south-east, compared with the 670,000 that local authorities think, at a pinch, could be fitted in? That is a massive increase, which the Government are taking seriously and may well recommend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Minister for the Environment has a third home in my constituency, and that he wanted to fell trees in an area of outstanding natural beauty to make way for a tennis court for himself?

I have often heard of "from chainsaw to chainstore", but I have never heard of "from chainsaw to tennis court for a Minister". That does not surprise me, as we have seen the Minister make so many lunatic assertions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] Where is he, indeed? This is his subject. At the Labour party conference recently, he recommended a major change in Government policy to prevent other people from buying second homes, as he has done. Has that suggestion been roundly condemned by Ministers, or is it still on the agenda? It seemed a bit much for a man who is called "Three Mansions Meacher" by the tabloid press to recommend that others should not even have the option of buying a second home in certain areas.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a demographic change in this country, whereby families are getting smaller, and therefore there will be far greater need for households in the future? If so, where are those people going to live if he thinks we should not be building new homes anywhere?

There may well be some increase in households. That is why we are recommending more building on brownfield sites, and the redevelopment of city centres. The Government have forecast that more young people will want to form their own household at an earlier age. That may well happen, and if they have the income to do so, good luck to them.

Very often, those young people would rather live in a town or city centre. They want to go out on a Saturday evening to the pubs and clubs, and they want to return long after the trains and buses have stopped. They cannot drive home to a suburban location because of the drink-and-drive laws. It would be much better if housing was made available in the centres of towns and cities at prices they could afford. Many of them are priced out of London, where house prices are high.

We need to bring on more brownfield development, as the Conservatives were doing through the massive redevelopment of the London docklands. [Interruption.] The Minister for Housing and Planning roars with laughter. He knows he is on a weak point here. Some 24,000 new dwellings were constructed in the London docklands during our period in office and just beyond, as a result of a massive brownfield project.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that all too often, as has happened in Hertfordshire, although the need is assessed on the basis of arguments about young people leaving home, what is built is not homes for young people, but three or four-bedroomed detached houses? In Hertfordshire, we are now having to contemplate the idea of 2,000 acres of green belt being destroyed, and a massive new target being imposed on top of that, which will destroy the character of my constituency. That is an outrage.

I agree with my hon. Friend.

When he was first appointed, the Secretary of State said that he would get rid of "predict and provide". Yet now we see his inspectors and advisers continuing that system, and predicting far more demand than was ever predicted under the Conservatives. We are close to hearing a statement from the right hon. Gentleman that he will insist on all those homes being provided. He has not got away from predict and provide at all. The soundbite says that he has, but the reality is the opposite.

The right hon. Gentleman is not even here today, because he does not think it important enough to come to the House and debate the issue.

The Minister will say that because of due process, he cannot yet tell us what the Government will do in the south-east—but I say that due process would allow the Secretary of State to tell us today, or whenever he wished, that 1.1 million was an absurd prediction for the south-east and that he wanted a better answer. I would back the Minister and the Secretary of State if they came to the House to kill predict and provide once and for all, and to give us a better policy. We are ready for that today. Where is the Secretary of State?

As I explained to the right hon. Gentleman when we met half an hour ago, the Deputy Prime Minister is attending an important international conference on carrying forward this country's Kyoto commitments on the environment. I am sorry that he has chosen to ignore what I told him and to cast an undeserved slur on my right hon. Friend. I hope that he will now withdraw that slur.

I cast no slur; I said that I thought that the Secretary of State should be here because we regard the subject of the debate as the most important green issue facing the country. He could do something about it today if he were here, because we would back him. With his huge ministerial team at the Department, he could have taken part in the earlier session, and then returned from Germany on an appropriate flight. His Minister for the Environment, a senior figure, could have stayed to deal with such issues, to which he might have been better suited than issues concerning housing and people with three homes.

The right hon. Gentleman has a selective memory. Under the previous Government, the target for brownfield development was 50 per cent., and only 42 per cent. was achieved. Under the present Government it is at least 60 per cent.

The hon. Lady has obviously not read the report on the south-east in which Government inspectors say that only half the total will be built on brownfield sites, and that the Government intend both to increase the total and to reduce the proportion to be built on brownfield sites, compared with their aspirations. They forecast a massive surge of new housing in the south-east, well above the targets set under the Conservatives, and also above the targets that we thought the present Government would set when they were operating according to a different percentage for greenfield sites.

Has my right hon. Friend been able to get to the bottom of the Government policy that says that although they want more and more houses to be built, they totally refuse to sanction any of the bypasses that their housing policy makes necessary? The Government know that Labour-controlled Weymouth and Portland borough council has been trying to get a bypass in connection with the Dorchester relief road since shortly after the war, yet they will not even tell us whether the idea has been put forward to the Treasury.

My hon. Friend is right; that is one of the absurdities of Government policy. If more were built in the cities, the units of accommodation would be close to bus routes and train stations, and there would be more chance of the people who lived in them making more journeys by public transport. Building on green fields means building homes in the middle of nowhere, where there are no stations or bus routes, so all the families who live there will be dependent on the car. Then the Government dare to cut all the road schemes that could make some sense out of their damaging policies.

My right hon. Friend will be aware that both at Rio and Kyoto, the British Government signed up to the principle of sustainable development. Does he agree that the decision taken by the Deputy Prime Minister to override his inspectors' decision in West Sussex, and vastly increase the number of houses to be built there, is contrary to all the principles to which Her Majesty's Government signed up? Will he ensure that they are held to account to honour their obligations?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point; he is absolutely right. Holding the Government to account is what we are trying to do in the debate; I hope that my hon. Friends will be able to catch your eye, Madam Speaker, so that we can make some progress.

The Government have already let down many local communities; 10,000 new houses are to be foisted on an area of green fields between Stevenage and Hemel Hempstead; 2,500 houses are to be built on green fields just outside Newcastle, despite the fact that there are 4,000 empty homes in the city itself. There are to be 90,000 new homes for Devon; they are not wanted, and will be difficult to accommodate in that beautiful part of our countryside.

The Government have overturned inspectors' advice against greenfield development near Sutton Coldfield. That really beggars belief. For once, the inspectors get it right, but the Secretary of State turned down their advice.

The right hon. Gentleman makes some important points about greenfield housing development. Will he, therefore, contact Conservative-controlled Wyre borough council and encourage it to support my contention that, for the next 21 years, we need no further greenfield housing development in the Wyre district?

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is off-message, and that he agrees with our campaign for green fields. I am sure that he is a quite persuasive local Member; he must contact his council and ensure that he speaks for it and for the local community when he takes such an unusually brave approach against his own Front-Bench colleagues. However, I hope that he will persuade his Front-Bench colleagues that they should think again, because England is up in anger over the forces that are being unleashed by the Government's planning policies.

Even the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee was critical of the Government. I was pleased that it dismissed the evidence of the Minister for Housing and Planning as vacuous and disingenuous. I should not dream of being so rude, but that comment was made by a Labour-dominated Select Committee, whose members had heard the Minister for themselves. They realised that his posturing on greenbelt and greenfield issues was just that, and that he would undermine the green belt and wreck the green fields.

May I make it absolutely clear that the Select Committee's remarks had nothing to do with the greenfield issue? They related to the provision of social housing. If the right hon. Gentleman is so keen on the policy that he promotes, how will he ensure that families, who have traditionally lived in city areas, are able to find accommodation so that their children and grandchildren can remain there in future?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman agrees that the Select Committee said that the Minister had made vacuous remarks. I thought that the whole point of the report was that some of those houses would have to be built on green fields. My case rests with all those who read the report. Of course, we want a range of provision—through public and private activity—so that people can have decent homes. That is why we want vigorous promotion of brownfield development, and inner-city and town development of the type that I shall describe.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, because his words will certainly strike a chord in my constituency and elsewhere. Is he aware that the people of Buckinghamshire in general, and Mr. Nick Nash, the leader of the Haddenham protection society in my constituency, in particular, are in open revolt against the recommendation of the Crow panel to dump another 92,000 homes on our county? They are simply not prepared to allow vast tracts of beautiful Buckinghamshire countryside to submit to the concrete mixer. They believe that any Secretary of State who could accept such ludicrous proposals must have taken leave of his senses.

As always, my hon. Friend understates his case; I quite agree with him.

We want the Government to come up with some answers on urban regeneration. Some time ago, they commissioned a report—

I must make some progress; many hon. Members want to speak in the debate.

The Government commissioned a report, and the Opposition welcome it; we think that it contains many good measures, although we do not agree with all its 105 recommendations. However, we agree with some of the larger ones. I have constantly asked the Government to tell us which recommendations they agree with, and what they intend to do about them. I hope that the Minister will have done his homework—albeit belatedly—and will come up with some answers today. Do the Government agree with the suggestion in the Rogers report, "Towards an Urban Renaissance", that they should
"limit greenfield land releases and channel development into redeveloping urban, brownfield sites."?
It would be a good start if they stated that they want to do that, and dismissed the inspectors who want them to do the opposite.

I must make some progress.

Do Ministers agree that the Government should
"require public bodies and utilities to release redundant urban land and buildings for regeneration…launch a national campaign to bring all contaminated land back into beneficial use"
and
"introduce an empty property strategy in every borough",
especially in Labour boroughs, which are rather bad at that sort of thing? Do they agree that they should
"harmonise VAT on new build and residential conversions"
preferably at zero per cent.? That would be welcome to people who are trying to do up properties in urban areas. Do Ministers believe in introducing
"Urban Priority Areas where regeneration can be undertaken by dedicated companies, assisted by streamlined planning decisions, easier land acquisition, tax incentives and additional resources"?
Do they agree that they should
"make the need for an urban renaissance a key objective in allocating public expenditure across government"?
Do they want to
"establish a Renaissance Fund for local groups to improve their own neighbourhoods"?
Those are some of the meatier recommendations in the report, which met with a deafening silence from the Government. We are now giving them Opposition time in which to make their intentions clearer.

The kernel of Lord Rogers's report is interesting, sharing language with the Opposition's motion. The report states that
"there is a real danger that too much greenfield land will be released in regions where it is not really needed, while excess demand for housing in London and the South East will lead to 'overheating' in the housing market and yet more countryside being annexed for development. Yet it need not happen that way provided we choose to manage our land and building assets in different, more imaginative ways."
The report then goes on to make suggestions in that respect.

My right hon. Friend mentioned Devon in passing. The recommendations for Devon, if followed through by the Labour Government, would mean the population of that county increasing by 27 per cent. The spread of the concrete jungle to such a beautiful part of the west country is entirely unacceptable and cannot be allowed to happen.

I agree. Not only is it unacceptable in Devon, but such a process is unacceptable to the exporting towns, cities and regions, because such areas need talented, dynamic people who have decent incomes, and the opportunity to create jobs and set up businesses. We must not allow too many of those people to drift from the cities to the green fields because we have failed the cities and let them down.

Something must be done and that is why we have launched 10 green pledges to make a real difference. I shall not take up the House's time setting out all 10 of our important pledges, because I know that my hon. Friends are impatient to make their own speeches. However, as part of our common-sense revolution, we believe that local people should make local decisions through their local councils, where it makes sense to do so because unemployment is low and the green fields are at risk. That is a pledge that we offer to local communities.

We believe that regenerating towns and cities is fundamental, hence our extreme disappointment at the cuts in regeneration budgets that we witnessed during the first two years of the Labour Government. We see in their plans for the period after the next election that the Government intend to increase public expenditure on those items, if they are still in office and if they choose to see those plans through. However, why did the Minister cut regeneration expenditure in the first couple of years? Does he realise that that expenditure was £1,415 million in the last year of the Conservative Government and £1,291 million in 1998–99?

Of course it was not. Does the Minister not realise that Conservative Budgets always had contingency funds and emergency money to top up individual Budget items year after year? We looked at the position each year and adjusted the Budget accordingly. The Labour Government took over in 1997 and they were responsible for the Budgets from the day they did so: they were not Conservative Budgets, but Budgets considered and endorsed by a Labour Cabinet. The Labour Government changed some of the lines in those Budgets, so why did they not change the one relating to regeneration expenditure, if they thought it was an important matter? The simple truth is that the Government could not have cared less about the cities—they turned their back on them and decided to go ahead and build on the green fields instead.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the characteristics of the Labour Government is that they always claim that whatever goes wrong is the fault of their predecessors? Now, even the media have accepted that the Government have to take responsibility for their own mistakes. If the Government were to accept Professor Crow's panel's recommendations, there is no doubt that, in the eyes of the British people, the Government would be responsible for the wholesale destruction of the green fields throughout the south of England. The Labour party once took pride in being representative of the north and the midlands; if the Labour Government abandon the regeneration of the north and the midlands, they will never be forgiven. Professor Crow's methodology must be rejected root and branch.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that important point. I hope that the Minister not only listened to him, but can offer some comfort.

Millions of people are very worried for their rural views and landscapes and the beauty of the England they love. It is within the power of Ministers either to move in the people's direction by saying in this debate that they have no intention of despoiling on the scale that their inspectors recommend or—and I fear that this is what they will do—to leave people fearful of seeing our green fields deluged with concrete, while sending no real message of hope to the cities and towns that are under pressure.

My right hon. Friend might also reflect upon the damage that the Government are doing in that developers think it is worth while to purchase greenfield sites on the basis that, if they hang on to them for some time, the Government will grant planning permission on appeal, overriding the wishes of local people.

My hon. Friend is right.

My message to the Government is: "Make up your mind and honour your promises for a change". The Government must spare the green fields, redevelop the brownfield sites and do something good for the cities upon which they have turned their back so noticeably in the past two years. They must rebuild the regeneration budgets and the cities, and we will be with them. The Government must not threaten the green fields further. The Secretary of State must come to the House of Commons, apologise for the inspector's report and start again.

4.6 pm

I beg to move, To leave out from "House" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

"welcomes the Government's continued commitment to sustainable growth, safeguarding the countryside and promoting an urban renaissance; welcomes the establishment of Regional Development Agencies and the policies and programmes which have been put in place to improve the prosperity and quality of life of the regions and supports the targeting of regeneration initiatives In areas of greatest need; recognises that the Government's integrated, inclusive and strategic approach is encouraging urban and industrial regeneration; welcomes the Government's inter-linked policies for revitalising the UK's towns and cities and protecting the countryside; supports the Government's target for building 60 per cent. of all new housing on previously developed land and welcomes the new housing planning policy guidance which encourages "in town" brownfield site development first under a phased sequential test; supports this Government's approach to new out-of-town shopping developments; welcomes the Government's move away from the previous "predict and provide" approach to housing provision and the introduction of a "plan, monitor and manage" policy under the new regional planning policy arrangements, including Examination in Public and Independent Panel assessment; recognises the need for a more detailed evaluation of land availability and capacity and welcomes the establishment of a National Land Use Database; supports the Government's policies on protecting the Green Belt; and believes the Government's planning, housing, transport, countryside protection, welfare and economic policies will achieve more sustainable and equitable patterns of both urban and rural development."
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) on managing to choose such a topical subject. It is topical for several reasons—not least because the right hon. Gentleman has devised it as a means of breaking with the past and of disowning both the approach taken by the previous Conservative Government and the policies for which he took collective responsibility within that Government.

The right hon. Gentleman claims that he has adopted and now advocates a new Conservative view of planning: he calls it a common-sense revolution in planning. Let us look at what he proposes. Instead of planning for prosperity, the right hon. Gentleman's proposals would stop housing development, irrespective of the economic and social consequences. They would fuel house price inflation, increase homelessness and reduce labour mobility. The economy would be severely damaged. We always thought of the right hon. Gentleman as a free marketeer, but he has now been revealed as an interventionist who has masqueraded as a free marketeer all these years.

The Conservative party would foster the divide that has always bedevilled Tory thinking: the divide between the rich and the poor. That is fine for the privileged, but not for the rest. It is rich that the Opposition have suddenly discovered a new-found enthusiasm for taking account of community views. Under the previous Administration, central Government overrode the decisions of local communities again and again. Central Government prepared the draft regional strategy, including housing numbers, and then revised the final version following a very limited consultation exercise. "Predict and provide" was the Conservative philosophy and approach, which the right hon. Gentleman now condemns.

Does the Minister recognise that the rich and the poor alike benefit from the countryside? I represent a rural constituency to which many tourists come every day of the week to benefit from its outstanding natural beauty. I have asked the Secretary of State to visit my area, but he refuses to do so. A small village in my constituency, with only 200 or so houses, is to be swamped by several hundred new houses. Will the Minister please take action to protect the people of Whittingham, who moved to the countryside because they enjoy it? There is such a thing as non-planning gain, which is what we want for the countryside.

The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that both rich and poor benefit from the countryside, which is why the Government are acting to protect it. [Interruption.] We are acting to protect the countryside and we are ensuring that a far greater proportion of development is on brownfield sites than the Conservative party ever achieved. Conservative Members should hang their heads in shame because their Government's record was a disgrace and they are now saying that they are disowning that Government's policies.

Let me return to the point raised by the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans). Although the rich and the poor can equally enjoy the beauty of the countryside, it is the poor who lose out and who end up homeless if there is a shortage of housing. That is why the hon. Gentleman's party should give thought to ensuring that we have an adequate supply of housing to meet the needs of every section of the community. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree with that principle.

I give way to the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), who is knowledgeable on this subject.

I am listening to the Minister's arguments with astonishment, because his policy, if he accepts the Crow report, of putting 1.1 million houses into south-east England will draw out the most economically active people from the areas most in need of economic regeneration—the midlands, the north-east and the north-west—and precisely those city centres that face the greatest challenge of urban decay. The Minister will simply make that position worse unless that ridiculous policy is overturned.

I am rather disappointed in the remarks of the hon. Gentleman, who came to see me last week. We discussed that matter, and as he knows perfectly well, it is not the Government's policy to build an additional 1.1 million homes in the south-east. Rather, that is a recommendation from the panel that was chaired by Professor Crow. That is one of the factors that we shall take into account when we make our decision, but he knows that it is not Government policy. He should not build up fears and anxieties among people in the countryside on the basis of false allegations.

Will the Minister then explain why, when I wrote to every Member of Parliament representing a constituency in the south-east, not one Labour Member chose to join me in recommending to the Minister that he reject that proposal? What are people in the south-east supposed to think is the Government's intention if none of their supporters will speak out against that proposal?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman was going to apologise for his previous remarks. I shall take up the subject of his letter in a moment, and I think he will be surprised at the answer that I shall give him.

Is my hon. Friend aware that as one of the Members who received a copy of the hon. Gentleman's letter, I decided not to support him because I wanted to make my own representations, which would not be coloured by his party's hypocrisy?

I thank the Minister for giving way—he is being extremely generous with his time. Will he accept, without blaming the previous Administration, that the proposals for Mid-Sussex, where the Deputy Prime Minister has overturned his own inspector's report, will mean more houses being built in an area where there is not enough water, there are not enough roads, there are not enough schools and there is not enough hospital space? More houses will mean more people and more cars. Sussex is facing "Carmageddon". How can the hon. Gentleman seriously propose that his Government are following a policy of sustainable development when he is butchering the south-east of England?

I make two points to the hon. Gentleman. The first is that it is very easy to insist that an inspector's report is followed when one agrees with it, but I put it to the hon. Gentleman that the right hon. Member for Wokingham is absolutely adamant, as are most of his colleagues, that we should not accept Professor Crow's report. The fact that a report is by an inspector does not determine whether or not it should be implemented. Obviously, the Secretary of State has to form a judgment.

In Sussex, as the hon. Gentleman knows well, the under-provision in the county's housing proposals, which are 25 per cent. below the figures set by the Conservative Government, was such that the Government felt that they were inadequate and therefore directed that county uniquely to increase its housing provision. The county challenged the Secretary of State's decision in the High Court, and lost. I rest my case.

As hon. Members know, I have already given way several times. I want to make progress, then I shall give way to colleagues on both sides of the House.

Let us contrast the previous Government's approach—predict and provide—with our new arrangements for regional planning. Under our arrangements, local planning authorities, which are getting together at regional level with other stakeholders, are preparing the draft. That draft is then subject to a public examination. That process has been undergone in both the eastern region and the south-east.

The public examination exposes the hard issues; it does not hide them behind closed doors in Whitehall. This debate, and tomorrow's on housing in the south-east, illustrate the way in which, under this Administration, the real issues are exposed and can be publicly discussed. We may not agree on all issues—they are difficult—but they are all debated in public. Previously, decisions were taken behind closed doors—and former Ministers know it, because they were party to that procedure.

In that spirit of openness, does the Minister understand that, unless he says today that 1.1 million new homes in the south-east is far too much and intolerable, he will go down as one of the bulldozer boys—the bovver boys—who are trying to fill in the countryside with concrete?

I am pretty disappointed in the right hon. Gentleman. As a former Secretary of State, he knows perfectly well that there is a due process for considering representations on such matters. To pre-empt consideration with the unilateral declaration for which he is calling may go down well in a school debating society, but is not serious politics—and he knows that. We shall make clear in due course our decision on the proposals of the south-east regional planning conference and the panel report of Professor Crow and his colleague. In the meantime, I have made it perfectly clear in this debate that the proposal for 1.1 million new homes is not Government policy. We shall consider that proposal along with other evidence.

We are talking about more than just evidence; the proposal is the conclusion of the Minister's inspectors. Until he disowns it, people will naturally assume that he and the Secretary of State are sympathetic to it. Will he give us a date by which we shall be put out of our misery? People out there want to know. The Minister cannot go on for ever. It seems obvious what must be done with the report. How long will it take the Secretary of State to make up his mind?

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that the details of regional planning guidance are complex and numerous. We shall make a decision as soon as it is possible to do so. That is a serious response. We believe in speeding up the planning process; we do not believe in hanging around and delaying such processes However, serious issues need consideration. Household numbers are one of hundreds of different issues, all of which need to be considered. When we produce our response, it will be comprehensive on all issues.

I shall make some progress.

This Administration are determined to ensure that development is sustainable and has proper regard to environmental considerations and infrastructure constraints. That is why we put so much emphasis on the need for a sustainability appraisal of development proposals. A properly informed debate may then take place, and development be planned where it is sustainable. That of course includes maximising the potential of brownfield sites.

Let us look at the record on brownfield development.

No, I want to make some progress.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham is only too happy to talk about more brownfield development today, but what was his record when his party was in government? From 1985 to 1995, only 42 per cent. of land used for housing was previously developed land. That was the Conservatives' record in government.

May I remind my hon. Friend that he and I began a brownfield development in my constituency when I was leader of Hove council, and that that development, on which there are now 75 housing units, was opposed by local Conservatives and the Conservative Government?

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I remember well the start of development on that site, which had been occupied by housing owned by a notorious bad landlord, who had neglected the properties scandalously and left many empty. It was absolutely right of my hon. Friend and his colleagues on Hove council to take action to secure that brownfield site for decent housing development.

I give way to the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke).

Before the Minister continues his attempt to ascribe to the previous Government everything that is bad about the present policy and to describe the changes that he is making, may I direct him to a part of the country where his rhetoric has made no difference at all?

An adopted county structure plan, put forward by Labour-controlled Nottinghamshire county council on the basis of old policies, purports to suggest an unacceptable demand for dwellings throughout Nottinghamshire. Conservative-controlled Rushcliffe, which is rural and suburban and has few brownfield sites, wishes to reduce the allocation made to it. Labour-controlled Mansfield and Labour-controlled Nottingham city council wish to have more dwellings allocated to them for purposes of urban regeneration and making use of derelict land.

The Government's attitude has been to ally with Labour-controlled Nottinghamshire county council to refuse to reopen any of the decisions in the structure plan. All the districts are proceeding under a legal liability to provide a number of dwellings. For two years now, all the rhetoric about new targets for brownfield sites and about saving greenfield sites has made no practical difference on the ground in Nottinghamshire.

I put two points to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. First, as a former Secretary of State, he well knows that one cannot simply terminate processes overnight. A process must be continued until new procedures replace it. Otherwise, there will be a vacuum in which any developer may appeal to the Secretary of State in the absence of a development plan; and in the absence of a plan, that leads to appeal-led decisions—the worst of all worlds. The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows that a plan-led system is better. That is why we are moving from the old system to the new one.

Secondly, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware of PPG3, the Government's new planning guidance on housing provision, which makes it very clear that it is now appropriate to apply a sequential approach to new housing developments. That guidance has been issued for consultation; we have had a very interesting and positive response on it and very shortly we shall issue the final version. All that is the process of changing from the old system to the new one. That change is taking place. It is a radical change, with a strong emphasis on getting the building on to brownfield sites in the cities.

I shall give way once more to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but then I must make progress.

I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene twice. I understand that the new PPG3 does not affect the legal liability on Rushcliffe borough council to allocate land for 14,400 new dwellings in one borough—one constituency—that is largely rural and suburban. All the changes described by the Minister have made no practical difference to a legal requirement to make greenfield sites available for a vast amount of development. Unless he takes some action that changes things, I shall regard his new policy as mere empty words.

I refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman to PPG3. He will see that it recommends, and when fully implemented will oblige, authorities to approach land allocation in a sequential way. It will therefore be open to Rushcliffe to give priority to its brownfield sites rather than to greenfield sites. I am sure that that is exactly the policy that he would like.

I must now make progress.

The building that took place on greenfield sites throughout the 1980s and 1990s reflected the laissez-faire attitude under which development was allowed to run not under the previous Government. It is no use the current Opposition trying to pretend that they had nothing to do with that. Many members of the current Opposition, including the right hon. Member for Wokingham, served in that Government and accepted collective responsibility for their policies. He himself made an even more significant contribution. Between 1993 and 1995, he was Secretary of State for Wales. I am sure that he remembers that period in his career—and its abrupt end.

As I prepared for this debate, I thought that it would be interesting to discover what fraction of new development in Wales during the term of office of the right hon. Member for Wokingham took place on brownfield sites. Little did I expect the answer that emerged. No Labour spin doctor could have given me a better answer. I shall let the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues into a secret: no one knows what proportion of new development in Wales in that period was on greenfield or brownfield sites. Why? Because under the right hon. Gentleman's regime, the Welsh Office did not bother to check figures on the greenfield-brownfield split because it was "too costly" to maintain such an analysis.

No, there is better yet to come.

That reveals the leopard's true spots—the old free marketeer advocate of laissez-faire. That was the record of the right hon. Member for Wokingham in government. When he had his chance to do something about the matter, he did not care. Now that he is in opposition, he makes a great fuss trying to convince the public that he does care, but it will not wash. His own record reveals the truth.

I shall give way in a moment, but the right hon. Gentleman must hear a little more. His pious protestations today sound hollow and insincere when contrasted with his performance in government. They sound even more hollow and insincere when put in the context of a letter delivered to me last Friday by 67 Opposition Members representing constituencies in the south-east. The hon. Member for Reigate took the trouble to come in person to present the letter to me, and we had a useful and frank discussion in my office at the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions.

I undertook to the hon. Member for Reigate to consider the letter carefully. I have done so. I have considered not just its contents, but the signatures. Among the 67 signatures are many familiar names, but one is strikingly missing. The right hon. Member for Wokingham forgot to sign the letter from his own party.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and the other members of the Conservative team chose not to sign the letter, precisely because they were members of the Conservative team. The letter was designed to be a cross-party approach, which it was, although sadly only with the Liberal Democrats. There was a total absence of support from Labour Back Benchers, who appear to have had their spines removed, like the nation's cattle.

The House will draw its own conclusions. The hon. Gentleman condemns Labour Members for not signing a letter, when hon. Members on his own Front Bench did not bother to sign it.

The Minister should do a lot better than that. He knows that I have raised the issue in several speeches. I have been in touch with the Secretary of State on the matter. My hon. Friends have my full support in their initiative.

The Minister's point is not a cheap debating point; it is simply a wrong-headed debating point. If he cares to check my record a little more carefully, he will see that when I was Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities, I set out policies for regeneration of inner cities and for brown land development, and saw some of them through in government, and that what I said in 1992 is entirely consistent with what I have said today and what I did in Wales.

I have checked the record, and I am about to quote some more of it to the right hon. Gentleman. I hope that he is looking forward to it. Carelessness appears to be the hallmark of the right hon. Gentleman's approach.

No.

Yesterday the television showed a film of the right hon. Member for Wokingham alongside an area of greenfield land about to be developed for housing in Berkshire. Indeed, I believe that he used that location to launch his 10 green pledges. Presumably, he was trying to imply that greenfield development in Berkshire is the kind of undesirable greenfield development that would not be allowed under a Conservative Government. The right hon. Gentleman is nodding. I must tell him and his colleagues that the development of greenfield land in Berkshire for housing is the direct result of the actions of the previous Conservative Government.

The right hon. Gentleman has revealed himself to be rather forgetful, but I should have thought that he would take the elementary precaution of researching the background to current house building in Berkshire.

Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten the direction issued to Berkshire county council to increase its housing numbers? No, it was not a direction from this Government. It was a direction made by the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), who in many respects has a good record on the environment. I regret that he is not in his place today.

I deliberately sought to highlight the fact that it was a Labour-Liberal council that said that all houses must be lumped together and placed on those green fields, against my advice and the advice of many Conservatives, and to highlight the fact that the Labour Government, far from making the situation better, are making it worse. Two other villages are now threatened because the Government are upping the figures for Berkshire.

I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is digging an even deeper pit for himself. He recognises that it was his Conservative Government who issued the direction to Berkshire county council to increase the numbers. That direction told local people in Berkshire not that they could decide how many homes should be built in their area, as the right hon. Gentleman is now suggesting should be the case, but instead that they must have an additional 3,000 new homes, because the Government—the Conservative Government—told them so. That is what the Tories did in power, and it is grotesque hypocrisy for them to present themselves as champions of both local discretion and greenfield land.

What did the right hon. Gentleman do about that diktat from the Government requiring his county to build more housing? Did he complain? Did he protest? Did he issue press releases? Did he hell. To be charitable, he may have been otherwise engaged. His mind may have been diverted because the direction was made in June 1995, when his thoughts were perhaps on challenging the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) for the leadership of the Conservative party.

I shall give way, but I suggest that the right hon. Member for Wokingham, who is getting a little excited, restrains himself for a moment. I accept that he had other things on his mind, but despite his attempt to seize the high prize of the leadership of the Conservative party, could he not have spared a moment to look after the interests of the countryside in his own county of Berkshire, which he now pretends to champion? Could he not have issued one press release to match the confetti of press releases that he is now issuing on the subject? No. He did not care; he did not lift a finger to stop local decision making being overruled by the Conservative Government. He did not lift a finger to save Berkshire greenfield sites from development when the Conservative Government were in power and it is nonsense for him to masquerade as the defender of greenfield sites and local democracy.

The Minister is misleading the House over this. He should remember that before 1997 those green fields were not in my constituency: they were in that of a colleague. He should also know that I was extremely critical of overdevelopment on the green fields throughout that period, but I still regarded the main problem as the Labour-Liberal council, which decided to lump all the houses together and build them on green fields instead of on reclaimed land in places such as Slough and Reading. I recommended building on Brownfield sites in Slough and Reading and he should check the record.

In a moment I shall refer the right hon. Gentleman to the record, which will compound his discomfort. He has revealed that he does not understand the system. It does not matter that the particular site against the background of which he was filmed was not in his constituency; it was in Berkshire. The key decision was that of the previous Conservative Government to direct Berkshire county council to provide additional homes. The right hon. Gentleman did nothing about that, and made no representations.

As and when the right hon. Gentleman eventually stirred himself, no doubt having recovered from the disappointment of his failed leadership bid, he raised the issue with the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal, asking:
"Does he agree that he should look again at the way in which the five-year supply of land is calculated, and base it more on market experience—the number of houses people want to build and can sell"?—[Official Report, 17 October 1995; Vol. 264, c. 155.]
That was the view he took then; he did not want to save greenfield sites and was a free marketeer. His whole case has collapsed because his record has been revealed as fundamentally in conflict with everything he has said this afternoon. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is not renowned for consistency or principle. He is reduced to promoting short-termism without responsibility and pandering to the populist views characteristic of an Opposition who will say anything to get votes today and deny homes tomorrow.

On the matter of homes in Berkshire, the right hon. Gentleman says that he was very concerned to emphasise that those houses should not be built in his constituency, but in Slough. May I inform my hon. Friend the Minister of the relative population densities of Slough and Wokingham? In Slough, there are more than 4,100 people per square kilometre. There is almost no land left. The Crow report has worrying implications for my constituency. We must try to ensure that we do not have a system in which, because of the unitary authorities in Berkshire area, an attempt is made to press all that development into Slough. The only land it has left is green belt. I would be reassured if the real problems in Slough, which, under the previous Conservative Government—

Order. The Minister has been extremely generous with interventions, but they should not extend to mini speeches.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend raises a perfectly valid point about the procedure involved in considering the Serplan proposals and the panel inquiry report. I shall deal with that in my speech.

I undertook to give way and I shall do so in a moment, but I must first make progress.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham made a number of references to the panel report into the regional planning guidance for the south-east. He seeks to confuse everyone about both the facts and the process. Contrary to the impression conveyed by the Opposition, the various figures for new housing in the south-east, which are under discussion, are not the Government's figures, and they are not additional to those put forward previously. Indeed, they subsume the existing figures in the current regional planning guidance, which was issued by the previous Government. To talk in terms of five cities the size of Southampton is nonsense rather than common sense.

The draft regional planning guidance was prepared by the local authorities in the south-east acting together. They suggested that some 700,000 new dwellings—about three and a half Southamptons—should be provided over the period 1996–2016. That draft RPG was considered at a public examination, held over six weeks in spring by an independent panel. A large amount of evidence was presented by local authorities, conservation interests, business organisations and others in an open and transparent process. The independent panel report, published on 8 October, reflects the panel's findings on the evidence presented. Among other things, it proposed that any development in the south-east over the next 20 years should be done in a co-ordinated way, as in "Priority Areas for Economic Regeneration" and in areas where development is needed, such as the Thames gateway, rather than in an unco-ordinated, unsustainable, piecemeal way spread across the region.

I shall not say tonight what the Government's response will be to the panel's report. As with all such planning matters, the Secretary of State will have to consider carefully what the panel has had to say and all the evidence presented before he makes up his mind. Under the new more open procedures, the Government will in due course publish proposed changes to the draft RPG for further consultation, and I hope that that will happen early in the new year. It would be wrong of me to speculate now on what the Secretary of State may decide in this case. However, we shall consider what the panel has said within the context of our stated policies of promoting sustainable development and an urban renaissance, and our clearly stated policy that 60 per cent. of all new development should be on brownfield sites.

May I bring the Minister back to the way in which the policy operates now, and take him away from the south-east towards the south-west and Somerset? I have in my hand some structure plan review modifications, which I received today. When he considers the final result of that review, will the Secretary of State take into account the most up-to-date figures and the latest planning advice, or will he consider the matters that were considered by the examination-in-public panel? That makes an enormous difference to the conclusions reached by the local authorities and, I hope, by the Secretary of State in reducing housing numbers in Somerset.

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. He will know from my response to an earlier question from the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) that the process of changing from the old system to the new one is incremental. One cannot throw out the position that one has reached, so one cannot reject the conclusions of the examination in public, but gradually the new arrangements are added. The new PPG 3 comes into the equation as and when it is published. It will therefore be open to the local authority to consider the need in the south-west in the context of the previous structure plan proposals and the emerging Government guidance.

As the Minister will have noticed, I sought to intervene when I thought that the whole debate was going to degenerate into the scoring of cheap party political points against my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). I do not believe that the Minister honestly does not recognise the real concerns throughout the country about the development of the policy. If I may take the south-east—the south-west has the same problem—it is not just a question of 1.1 million more houses and that is the end of it. It is 1.1 million until the end of 2016 and then, as far as people know, it will be the same all over again. The policy is unsustainable. Two thirds of the rise in the population in Somerset is due to inward migration from the north and other places by people wishing to take advantage of better job opportunities and other factors. That is causing urban deprivation, inner-city disaster and rural sprawl, and it is a major challenge for the whole country.

The right hon. Gentleman is wrong in assuming that migration from the north is the major factor in population and housing growth in the south-west or the south-east. It is not, and if he studies the figures he will realise that.

However, there are pressures to deal with household growth, much of which is generated by the need to accommodate new indigenous households.

Order. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) cannot stay on his feet while the Minister is speaking if the Minister has not given way, which he has not.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am trying to respond to the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), and the hon. Member for Reigate should wait at least until I have answered that intervention. The hon. Gentleman has intervened twice, so he has already had more than his fair share of interventions.

The point that I was making to the right hon. Member for Bridgwater was that difficult issues must be addressed. The undesirable consequences of inadequate provision are rising house prices, homelessness and overcrowding. We must make provision, but it must be sustainable if we are to ensure that we do not bequeath communities that cannot continue to exist without putting unreasonable pressures on the countryside. That is our objective and our policy.

It is important that I now focus on the proposals on which we have been working to ensure that any future development in England is sustainable and appropriate. Our agenda goes far wider than just planning policy, although that is a major plank of the overall strategy. Our approach includes the urban and rural White Papers, which we intend to publish next year, the regional planning agenda, which is already in place, the work of the regional development agencies to help to solve regional economic imbalances, and many other cross-government initiatives.

In addition, we are trying, through the social exclusion agenda, to balance out the differences between regions, towns and cities as regards the lot of different members of the community. We are trying to iron out the differences between the haves and have-nots, which was so chronically exacerbated during the time of the previous Government.

We also believe that we have a responsibility to people in need of affordable housing. Unlike some local authorities—and the right hon. Member for Wokingham, who did not mention the need for affordable housing—we believe that we should ensure that everyone has the opportunity of a decent home. We do not believe, like some people, that their needs can be ignored. The sons and daughters of existing residents need housing, and we should plan to include them.

Our approach was set out in our White Paper "Planning for the Communities of the Future" and in the draft planning policy guidance note on housing, PPG3. The whole approach has been widely endorsed by the all-party Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs, the urban task force and by far the majority of the respondents to the PPG3 consultation.

The Government believe that everyone should have the opportunity of a decent home. That will mean looking ahead for up to 20 years to assess housing needs, tempered by constraints on capacity, to arrive at a responsible and realistic view of the future housing requirements of a region.

I shall not give way.

We should plan to meet the requirements of the whole community, including those in need of affordable housing. We should provide greater choice and a better mix in the size, type and location of housing. We should provide sufficient homes, but give priority to the re-use of previously developed land, bringing empty homes into use and promoting the conversion of existing buildings within urban areas, in preference to greenfield sites. As I have already stressed, we are committed to our national target of 60 per cent. of new homes on previously developed land or through conversions.

I shall not give way. I have made it perfectly clear that I have taken enough interventions, and it is time to move on, as other hon. Members want to contribute to the debate.

We will look very critically at the panel report on the south-east, which proposes a 50 per cent. target for brownfield development. We should create more sustainable patterns of development by building in ways that will deliver accessibility by public transport to jobs, education and health facilities, shopping, leisure and local services.

We propose a systematic approach to assessing the potential of land for housing. We should release land reserved for employment or other uses that might better be used for housing. We should review planning policies and standards that affect the capacity to accommodate development, especially those relating to the layout, density and car parking requirements in new developments. We should promote good design in new housing developments to create attractive, high-quality living environments where people will choose to live. This is a one-nation approach which aims to plan ahead; faces up to the scale of the challenge and the difficult decisions that confront us; does not shirk responsibility; and recognises the importance of reconciling different and sometimes conflicting priorities.

As the House knows, we are strongly committed to maximising the re-use of previously developed land and buildings, particularly in urban areas.

The Minister knows that one of the changes that the Government made when they came to power was to move more planning, or regeneration, decisions to the rural development authority. Will he consider what has happened to the fourth of the four sets of sites on Portland? The first three have all been redeveloped for housing and business purposes, because they were sold to the private sector; the fourth is in the hands of the rural development authority, and has been for two years. The authority refuses to return calls from people who want to create jobs in my constituency. The policy is not working, and I should be grateful if the Minister would look into the matter. A massive brownfield site is available, and we want to start developing it.

If the hon. Gentleman will write to me, I shall undertake to look into the issue that he has raised. I am happy to ensure that he receives a detailed response.

We are insisting on regional and local targets. We launched the national land use database; until we commissioned it, there was no available evidence of what previously developed land was likely to become available. That was a crucial step towards ensuring that we had the information that was necessary if we were to achieve our brownfield site targets. The right hon. Member for Wokingham and his colleagues simply had not thought it worth checking their data. We are now setting up rigorous capacity studies, and proposing annual monitoring.

The Tories had 18 years in which to face up to the challenge, and they failed. No sooner had they been converted from being laissez-faire free marketeers hellbent on dismantling the planning system to being aware of the need to plan ahead than they renounced that awareness and became "NIMBYs" without responsibility.

We know what is realistic and do-able. We know what we have achieved from our annual land use change statistics. For the first time, we have information on what previously developed land is available, has planning permission and is scheduled for development in local plans, and what could become available for development in the next five years. The urban task force chaired by Lord Rogers has suggested that the 60 per cent. target will be challenging in the longer term—

I will, because I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a long-term interest in the subject; but this is the last intervention that I will take.

I am grateful to the Minister. He has been very charitable, but I am sure that he will be helped by my question.

I do not know how exactly how many, but an enormous number—millions and millions—of houses were to be built, but the Deputy Prime Minister has reduced that figure of 400 million, or whatever it was, to 3.8 million. Will that feed into the regional plans and the district plans? Will we benefit from the reduction that the Deputy Prime Minister wishes to incorporate in the national figure? If the reduction does take place, when will it take place?

I shall be charitable to the hon. Gentleman, as he is clearly having difficulty with his figures. I assure him—and he will know from the frequent debates in which we have engaged in the Chamber—that we are introducing the new arrangements that he himself agrees are an improvement on the previous arrangement. I do not claim that he agrees with everything that we are doing, but he has told me that he feels that draft planning policy guidance note 3 goes very much in the right direction. As I said in response to two earlier interventions, we are committed to the incremental implementation of the new arrangements to ensure that we achieve the objectives that I have spelt out.

In PPG3, we propose to promote the national target of 60 per cent. of development on brownfield sites by ensuring that regional planning bodies adopt challenging regional targets, based on a full assessment of achievement to date, regional capacity studies and proposed local targets based on local plans and the national land use database. We also propose that local planning authorities should review the capacity of their areas, having assessed the impact of changing policies on density, parking and layout.

We are promoting greater choice in the mix of size, type and location of housing, offering more choice for small households, for whom the house builder's standard product—a four-bedroom house on a greenfield site at low density—is not the preferred option. We are creating attractive alternatives, making urban living a real choice, rather than a compromise for those who have choice. Above all, we are firmly weighting the selection criteria for assessing the development potential of possible housing sites in favour of the re-use of previously developed land in the right locations.

I assure the House that we are committed to maximising the re-use of land and buildings, the so-called brownfield option, and to making better use of existing land and buildings to minimise the need to use greenfield sites. That will mean reassessing density standards, particularly in the south-east, which has the lowest densities for new housing developments in the whole country.

We are choosing the most sustainable greenfield options through the systematic assessment of sites to be allocated for housing in development plans. That will mean revisiting existing allocations to review their suitability and capacity. We are getting a better mix of types, sizes and locations for the additional housing, so as to offer greater choice.

Unlike the Opposition, we are prepared to face up to our responsibilities to the present and next generation who need housing. We have a realistic strategy to meet the challenge. Labour is the party of one-nation politics, the Conservatives of short-term opportunism and long-term amnesia.

The Conservatives' record in government was lamentable. Their cover-up is unconvincing. Their rhetoric is hollow. Their policies are threadbare. Their motion deserves to be overwhelmingly rejected.

May I take the opportunity to remind the House that the 10-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches applies from now?

4.52 pm

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) on introducing what is an important subject for debate in the House. It is, indeed, about the balance between urban and rural communities. The common-sense policies that he has formulated will go some way to countering the imbalance that the Government's policies are fast achieving.

The Government's view of what they have achieved since they came into office is trumpeted in the Order Paper. They claim that their
"planning, housing, transport, countryside protection, welfare and economic policies will achieve more sustainable and equitable patterns of both urban and rural development."
The Minister has described their policies as having one-nation appeal.

The Government came to office promising policies that were based on consensus and inclusion, yet in two and a half years they have created two Britains: one urban and one rural; they have switched funds from shire to urban areas; they have largely ignored the worst crisis in farming since the 1930s; and they have imposed the highest transport fuel taxes in Europe, apparently not knowing that those impact more severely on the rural economy, which is already reeling from the rest of their policies.

The Government are undermining local democracy by switching power from elected councils to appointed regional quangos. The planning decisions that they have already taken show that their solution to the two Britains that they are heedlessly creating is suburban sprawl, uniting the whole country against that threat. Those policies demonstrate clearly their disregard for and ignorance of the rural areas on which they are imposing those developments, not that other examples are hard to find.

The Government cannot be unaware of the extra costs of delivering services in rural areas. I say that not because they give any sign of having understood it, but because of the number of reports that they have commissioned telling them so. Their independent consultants have pointed out that it costs more to police rural areas, which is self-evident to all who live in them.

No. I will not take any interventions because of the time limit.

The result in West Norfolk police division, an area the size of Bedfordshire, is that there are 32 police officers on duty at any one time, when the force is up to strength, which it currently is not, yet Norfolk has lost 50 police officers since May 1997.

A report on population sparsity and social services published in August 1998, by the County Councils Network, concluded that the costs and time of travel are higher in rural areas than in urban areas; there are additional transport costs in providing services in rural areas; and economies of scale are harder to achieve. Those factors apply across a wide range of local authority services, with the consequence that rural authorities face considerable difficulties in providing the same range and standard of services at the same cost as in urban areas.

Council tax in rural areas represents a higher proportion of local average earnings. Therefore, people in rural areas pay relatively more in council tax than their urban counterparts. Yet, the Government have changed the funding formula so that, over the life of this Parliament, rural areas stand to lose more than £500 million in council grant.

The Government's attitude to agriculture—which has contributed to the worst crisis in farming since the 1930s—has meant a drop in farming incomes of more than half since they were elected. The Government's own failure to lift the ban on beef on the bone has left them with little credibility when arguing with the French, and now with the Germans, that British beef is safe. The Government have hit other farmers, in both livestock and arable sectors, with taxes and regulations.

I have no doubt that the Government's focus groups tell them that, as there are only 400,000 farmers in Britain, they are an insignificant group and not particularly popular—so they can be safely ignored. The Government's policies show that they have never understood that a prosperous agriculture sector enables a prosperous rural economy—it is as simple as that. As farmers go out of business, so will agricultural engineers, seed merchants, garages, markets, agricultural suppliers and the service industries that support them.

The Government, in the name of protecting the environment—the Order Paper shows so clearly that they have not understood what they have done—have also blithely imposed on the United Kingdom the highest fuel taxes in Europe. As Ministers' thinking—hence, their planning decisions—is urban, they have no concept of the impact that those costs have on people in rural areas. In my constituency, it is not unusual for families to have to have two or even three cars per household simply to get to work. Visiting the general practitioner's surgery may involve a round-trip of 14 or 15 miles; the local hospital, 30 miles; and the council office, jobs centre, benefits office and citizens advice bureau, another 30 miles.

Although the Government's announcement of a rural bus grant was welcome, not only can the grant not begin to compensate rural people for the fuel tax burdens that the Government have imposed on them, but Ministers really do have to understand that a bus network cannot cover the complexities of modern rural life and that many people, simply to lead their lives, need to use cars. That would be true even if the bus grant had been sensibly introduced. However, I should like to spend a moment sharing with the House the way in which the scheme is being implemented in south-west Norfolk. I shall make the point on rural buses in some detail, because the transport issue is key to all of the planning decisions already announced by the Government.

The secretary of the Watton and District chamber of commerce, Mr. Martin Anscombe, has written to the director of transportation at Norfolk county council about rural transport funding, stating:
"I have now been tasked by this Chamber's Committee to express the views of members"—
on the rural bus grant—
"in the strongest possible terms. That is, simply, that the provision…as far as Watton is concerned, is a complete waste of public money…
There are now some 130 additional buses per week through Watton…
Informal observations indicate that the new services are, so far, very little used, with large, single-decker coaches arriving and departing…empty or nearly so.
The effect of the grant has been the setting up of new services on a somewhat scatter-gun approach, with no time for consultation or a thorough examination of either need or effect."
That is not the only problem.

Earlier this year, my constituent Mr. Bagge, of Stradsett, wrote to the local council, King's Lynn and West Norfolk, stating:
"We have received correspondence from you with regard to various Bus Pass Schemes which we have passed on to people living in the village of Stradsett and pinned up on our Church notice board.
We would just like to know exactly where the Bus Stop sign is"—
some booklets stated that it was in one location, but others said it was somewhere else—

"please let us know where the bus stop is".
The reply came from the council two months later:
"I apologise for the delay in replying to your letter but it has taken me some time to identify who exactly is responsible for the location of the bus stops.
From a site visit that I made to the village I would agree that it is not very clear where any bus stops are located, but from an examination of the timetables I have marked on the enclosed map where I think the buses should probably be stopping."
Eventually my constituent was contacted by the county council, which said:
"At Stradsett, as in many rural areas, there are no fixed bus stops. Buses will stop on a hail and ride basis…Timetables state a specific location in villages to help indicate the route the bus takes."
Small wonder that, despite their protestations to the contrary, the Government's much-vaunted rural bus grant is not working. Such nonsense can be put right by the common-sense policies advanced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham.

However, there is another, more menacing fundamental change, on which the Government seems set that is hitting local democracy. To address the democratic deficit that their devolution policies have created in England, they plan to impose artificial and unwelcome regional structures throughout the country that would abolish counties, make local government more remote and, worse still, make it urban dominated. The rural development agencies are showing the way.

We ought to value local democracy and the involvement of local people who are willing to give their time to take decisions closest to the people whom they affect. We should seek to strengthen the local nature of the democratic process. That is why our proposals to give elected local authorities more say in large-scale development and planning matters are so welcome. In the mean time, the Government, from their urban fastness, seek to smother local democracy by layers of quangos—

5.2 pm

One cannot begin to discuss this subject sensibly without focusing on existing urban areas and cities. It is lamentable that in the central region of London we have only 500,000 residents, compared with 2 million in cities such as Paris. I welcome Government initiatives on planning policy guidance, regional development agencies and regional planning. They are targeting need, deprivation, health, education and housing. There are 750,000 empty properties in urban areas, and that problem needs to be addressed.

What are the causes? The first is the prevailing ideology of the past that was linked to market forces regardless of the environmental, social or economic consequences. Thoughtlessness and a willingness to pander to vested interests led to piecemeal planning that resulted in rundown areas in cities and conurbations standing cheek by jowl with up-market, expensive housing. That is true not just of the south-east, but of northern and midland areas. In some of those areas it is hardly possible to buy a house for less than £100,000, yet a quarter of a mile away they are practically being given away.

The potential of previously developed land has often been disregarded. The problems were made worse by the old predict and provide system that encouraged development on greenfield sites as an easy way out. Local planning authorities have often been unable to withstand applications for greenfield site development; they can only temper the situation by section 106 agreements. That has been uncomfortable for many districts who have had applications for large developments of hundreds—sometimes thousands—of homes and have had to negotiate a section 106 agreement for schools and roads. All that has added to the existing problems without any real focus on a sequential test, which will now be introduced. I am pleased that local authorities will be able to apply that sequential test and discuss need to a greater extent than ever before.

Authorities will be able to expect better design principles. We have always paid regard to design, but not nearly enough. I welcome the urban task force report, under Lord Rogers, that has put design at the top of the agenda. Without really good design, nothing can work. Local authorities should be able to describe they types of housing needed and local planning authorities should have development briefs for parcels of land. They should be able to scrutinise and criticise design, and to expect higher standards.

I would argue for changes to punitive VAT rates on conversions and against the present zero rate on new build. That cannot go on. There are problems, but the Government must look closely at what they can do to militate against the over-willingness of developers who want greenfield site development.

Empty property should not attract concessions—it should attract penalties. At present, local authorities can allow reductions in rates demands and so on for an empty property, but we should introduce penalties. I am not certain of the rate—that is up to the Government—but the penalties should be substantial, so that we can get empty properties into use. Often, housing associations are ready and willing to buy up those properties and convert them for social housing, which would benefit the sons and daughters of people living in those areas.

We must look to the development of the five regions in England. For the life of me, I cannot understand the Opposition's destructive attitude towards regionalism. If they support local interests, why do they want everything to depend on Whitehall? Why will they not give significance and credit to people living within the regions, or allow them to determine their own futures—to know, for instance, what skills are needed so that they can match education, skills and new industry? Why will the Opposition not accept that that is a good way forward? That is what we intend to do.

I will not give way, as I have only a few minutes.

It is far more desirable for regional planning guidance and regional development agencies to come to some broad conclusions on spatial development, such as where best to locate employment and housing. These should be close together, and we must have no more of the 30 to 40-mile journey to work. We cannot get rid of that situation over night, and we are depending on new Government initiatives to tackle these problems. At the moment, these are mostly in draft form and will take time. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) may not agree, but he should remember that it takes years to establish section 106 agreements. The new way forward would help, and we would not have to go through all those long and involved planning applications, or try to resolve matters through complicated section 106 and other unhelpful legal agreements. We could get on with considering Lord Rogers's task force's report, and all the new initiatives for creating regeneration on brownfield sites.

I do not want to take up too much of the time of the House, because I realise that many Members are keen to contribute to the debate. However, I want to stress the fact that the best way forward involves integrated policies, which should derive from local needs and be delivered through a regional approach, instead of the old predict and provide system, with its over-reliance on remote Whitehall decisions.

5.11 pm

We welcome this debate on the crucial issue of how we respond to the challenge of housing the growing number of households that it is predicted will be formed over the next few years. The subject is important, and we must get our answers right for the sake of the hundreds of thousands of inadequately housed families in this country and for the future of our precious green spaces.

To understand the consequences of getting the matter wrong, we need look no further than the record of the previous Government. With that in mind, I draw the attention of the House to the amendment tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself. We welcome the Conservatives' new-found conversion to environmentalism and the protection of green fields in the south-east, but we question whether their concern may be due to the fact that the south-east is where almost all their seats are held. We cannot let them get away with ignoring their record of 18 years of neglect of those green places.

The Tory legacy is one of
"a growing divide between the prosperous and deprived areas of Britain".
That is the situation that the Labour Government found when they took office in 1997. They have been slow and unadventurous in dealing with it, but we should make no mistake about the fact that it was the Tories who put this country in that situation.

The previous Government's predict and provide policy resulted in record numbers of homeless and inadequately housed people. Only 42 per cent. of the new houses built were sited on brownfield land, which means that six out of 10 new homes were built on greenfield sites. That Government's sale of council houses without replacement reduced the availability of affordable housing for rent—which was a significant factor in bringing about the present situation—with record numbers of people unable to obtain such housing.

The Labour party promised a change of policy, saying that there would be an end to predict and provide and that the new housing requirement would be reduced from 4.4 million to 3.8 million homes. Labour also promised that there would be a new commitment to urban regeneration. We have heard plenty of fine words, but we have not yet seen much change on the ground. Too many greenfield sites are still being built on, and the urban task force estimated in its report that at the current rate of progress, the Government would not meet their 60 per cent. target for development on brownfield sites, but would achieve only 55 per cent.

Liberal Democrats believe that we need to work much harder to use the existing housing infrastructure. Our aim is environmental sustainability, and our target is for 75 per cent. of development to take place on brownfield sites.

The hon. Gentleman clearly feels on safe ground attacking the only two parties that have ever been in power or are ever likely to be in power. However, two exceptions to that rule are district councils and county councils, many of which have been controlled by the Liberal Democrats. He has only to consider North Wiltshire council, or Wiltshire county council, which used to be Liberal Democrat-controlled, to see what happens when his party is in power. Its councillors give planning permission for out-of-town shopping centres and housing all over our beautiful greenfield sites.

The hon. Gentleman misunderstands the system. Local authorities have to work within a national framework that sets a national target. They are duty bound to identify sites; they have no choice in the matter. That is true of Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat councils.

We should levy a greenfield tax.

I shall certainly give way to the hon. Gentleman, who is my constituency neighbour.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy and kindness. Our constituencies share Torbay, although he has a little more of it than I do.

The hon. Gentleman is after a figure of 70 per cent. for brownfield sites—I do not disagree with him on that. However, in Torbay the problem is that brownfield sites do not reach a figure of 70 per cent.—at present, the figure is not even 30 per cent. In view of that, where does the hon. Gentleman propose to put the houses?—not in the South Hams, the other part of my constituency.

The target is a national one; we should not expect every local authority to reach that figure. The hon. Gentleman should be better informed about Torbay, because it has a higher percentage of homes on brownfield sites than any other local authority in the whole of the far south-west. Torbay should be congratulated for having achieved that.

We would levy a greenfield development tax to bring closer the relative costs of greenfield and brownfield development. Will the Minister consider that proposal? We need a strict hierarchy whereby empty housing is restored to use, redundant buildings are converted into homes, more flats are built over shops and existing infrastructure is exhausted before new greenfield sites are considered.

Top-down solutions have proven ineffective. Global figures set by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions are not helpful. We would place a duty on local authorities to assess local housing needs in partnership with developers, social housing providers and private landlords. Their findings, together with those of all local authorities, would be combined regionally in order strategically to plan future housing growth. I am sure that the hon. Member for Castle Point (Mrs. Butler) would warm to that idea, because it meets her criterion of the greater involvement of people in decisions that affect their lives.

We would also take a firm line on second homes. In areas where they are concentrated, they inflate prices beyond the ability of local people to pay, they threaten local shops and services and they reduce the income of local councils. We would allow councils to remove the council tax rebate on second homes and, in areas where the ownership of such homes is squeezing out local home buyers and causing other social and economic problems, we would permit councils to introduce a premium of up to 100 per cent. on the council tax, or a flat-rate tax on second homes. Again, I think that the hon. Member for Castle Point will warm to that idea.

The revenue would be kept in the local area to subsidise bus routes, village schools and other services threatened by a part-time population. We would also allow councils to require change of use planning consent for the transfer of a full-time residence to be used as a second home.

We would not ban them, but we would not reward them as the current system does.

More needs to be done to bring existing houses back into use. We would strengthen compulsory purchase powers for local authorities on properties left empty without reasonable cause for more than 12 months, changing the restrictions on data use so that housing departments can access council tax and revenue department data in the same authority, to identify owners of empty properties.

We would also restore mandatory improvement grants to unfit houses. Such grants would be subject to the property remaining in tenanted occupation for at least three years after the award of the grant. I should like to hear the Minister's views on that proposal, and on our proposal to end the anomaly whereby VAT is levied on renovation and repair, but not on new build.

The debate should be about meeting housing need; that is just as important in the north as it is in the south-east—it is important everywhere. If an excessive number of houses is built in the south, that will attract more people to move south to take up surplus jobs, thus further exacerbating the decline of our urban centres. We need to consider ways of encouraging work and prosperity to move to areas with an existing infrastructure that has already been paid for. That means tackling urban renewal head-on, and not merely filing the work of the eminent Lord Rogers and his urban task force to gather dust on a shelf, while the trend away from urban living continues unabated.

Without a creative and determined approach to revitalising urban centres throughout our country—not only those in the north—the south-east will find it increasingly difficult to protect its remaining green spaces. Work needs to be done to manage the expectations of the growing number of small households, because it simply is not possible for everyone to own a three or four-bedroomed detached house with a double garage. Pilot projects must be developed to demonstrate that higher density living can be an attractive alternative for both home owners and those in various forms of social housing tenure.

The Liberal Democrats believe that we should focus on and speak up for those who do not have a decent home and could never afford to buy one. It is essential that the House and the country at large realise the great social cost of failing those people. The impact on people's lives of inadequate housing ranges from family breakdown to impaired educational achievement of children living in that housing. Mental and physical health can be affected and poor general health is often a result. That costs the state a great deal, not only in wasted talent, but in strict financial terms: it has been estimated that the costs of ill health resulting from poor housing put £2 billion on the national health service bill.

We are now 2,000 years from no room at the inn. I hope that the House will ensure that, just before we enter the 21st century, there is room at the inn for the thousands who regularly sleep rough or suffer the misery of inadequate housing. That should be central to today's debate. Despite the Conservatives' cheek in tabling the motion, the Liberal Democrats will support it because the Government have so far failed to respond adequately to the concerns expressed in it and to those that I have outlined in my speech.

5.22 pm

Even after two years as a Member of Parliament, I am staggered by the effrontery of the Conservative case set out in the motion, especially the crocodile tears shed over

"the growing divide between the prosperous and deprived areas of Britain…the run-down of industry and the dereliction of inner city and old industrial areas".
It was the Conservative Government under Mrs. Thatcher who were largely responsible for those ills.

The motion ludicrously suggests that people are being
"encouraged to move out of the urban areas into new housing on greenfield sites".
The Conservatives know perfectly well that the Labour Government have set a 60 per cent. target for new homes built on recycled land, released extra single regeneration budget funds for urban renewal and invested in education action zones and housing action zones, precisely to improve the quality of life of city dwellers and to encourage more people to stay in or move into cities. The Government are also encouraging local authorities to control the traffic in urban residential streets through the creation of home zones, so that families are encouraged to stay in cities by the feeling that they are safe there.

I am sorry that most Conservative Members who represent the south-east stayed in the Chamber only to barrack my hon Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning and have since found better things to do. As a Labour Member of Parliament representing the south-east, I shall explore the impact of Conservative policies on the south-east. I totally reject the notion that the south-east needs no further growth and that no homes are needed for the region's young people. Of course, I would say that as one who represents a city with the highest proportion of young people in the whole of the UK.

I also reject the notion that, if no development is allowed in the south-east, the jobs being created in that region will go to other regions. It is not a question of north versus south, but one of north and south. The south-east is the most affluent region of the United Kingdom, but in European terms it is not especially affluent and there is huge scope for further economic growth. In any case, as Labour Members representing south-east constituencies know, not everyone in the south-east shares in the region's general affluence.

I strongly support Labour's strategy on regional development agencies, because it will ensure that there is appropriate economic development tailored to the strengths of every region. The south-east needs an RDA to deal with its problems, including pockets of disadvantage, incredible congestion—the result of an inadequate public transport infrastructure inherited from the previous Government—and skills shortages: the south-east contains a significant number of people who are, in effect, unemployable despite there being jobs to spare, because they lack the skills necessary to take up the vacancies. It is incredible that the Opposition wish to abolish RDAs and the new deal for the unemployed, which is especially important in constituencies such as mine in helping those who are currently excluded from sharing in economic prosperity to participate in a dynamic local economy.

I want to argue for planned development as opposed to the laissez-faire Conservative policies of the past, and the NIMBY-ism writ large in the Opposition's current proposals. I will use my city, Milton Keynes, to argue that case. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) left the Chamber after taking it upon himself to speak for all Buckinghamshire Members of Parliament. I presume that he forgot to consult two of us before speaking on our behalf.

Milton Keynes is an incredibly successful example of the planned environment. It has grown from a city housing 40,000 people in 1967 to one that is home to 207,000 people. Its ultimate population is meant to be 250,000, and that figure should be reached in the next four or five years. Milton Keynes is successful because individual neighbourhoods are superbly landscaped. The landscaping includes rivers, lakes, which have been created to improve the environment, green walkways, cycle ways and parks. It is reminiscent of the work of Capability Brown, but a modern Capability Brown for the people, not for the aristocracy. It incorporates many historic monuments and mediaeval churches in such a way that they complement and enhance the environment of the people who live in that modern city.

Milton Keynes is especially successful because its housing was built in tandem with other necessary facilities such as schools, shops and community centres. That is different from other housing developments such as the huge early example in Reading, where housing was developed with no thought for the other facilities that people needed. That had lamentable consequences for the residents, who might have had nice, affordable houses, but lacked the necessary support structures.

As well as the physical structures of Milton Keynes, a proper community workers' system was established there. Every family who moved to Milton Keynes received a welcome pack, which gave information about the available facilities and offered help with contacting local GPs and other services.

Our city is amazingly successful. Its diverse economy is based on a range of industries and many headquarters of British and overseas firms are situated there. The industries include engineering, distribution, food processing, information technology and design firms. Successful inward investment from the European Union and the far east has been made in Milton Keynes. For example, 10 per cent. of all Taiwanese investment in the United Kingdom is in Milton Keynes and contributes to our employment base.

The hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green) has gone on record as saying that he would not like his constituency to resemble Milton Keynes. In the past month, the city's new regional theatre opened. It is a superb theatre, which I invite him to visit with his constituents at his expense. This week, the theatre is hosting the Glyndebourne festival.

Our wonderful art gallery is currently hosting a Gilbert and George exhibition. It is the only UK art gallery where one can see that exhibition, which will travel to the United States. The next time that the hon. Member for Ashford compares my constituency unfavourably with his, he should ensure that his constituents know that he is saying that he does not want them to have a nice art gallery or theatre, or a thriving economy.

When I said that I would not like my constituency to resemble that of the hon. Lady, I meant that my constituency contains large areas of countryside, which the Crow report would concrete over. Will the hon. Lady reject the Crow report? I hope that she will.

I want to say that Milton Keynes has been an incredible success and that it has given a much better quality of life to those who have moved to it. It was built on a greenfield site, but on low-quality agricultural land. Milton Keynes has many more trees and animals than there were on that low-grade agricultural land.

People in Milton Keynes want their children to be able to live and work in their city. There is already a shortage of affordable housing and, because of the strength of the local economy, substantial in-commuting takes place and that is beginning to cause pollution and congestion.

I welcome that part of Professor Crow's report that relates to Milton Keynes. In particular, I welcome his proposals that state clearly that the eastern side of Milton Keynes needs plan-led growth. Such growth would retain the high quality that Milton Keynes has come to expect, would be linked to sustainable public transport and would provide a balanced community that included more affordable housing. That positive way forward contrasts hugely with the inchoate rants that we heard from Conservative Members.

5.31 pm

In contrast to the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey), I want to congratulate my right hon. Friends the Members for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) on their contributions to the debate. I also wish to congratulate the Minister for Housing and Planning on his promotion. I fully recognise his deep experience and expertise in housing and planning matters. I wish him well in his new responsibilities.

I agreed with the hon. Members for Milton Keynes, South-West and for Castle Point (Mrs. Butler) when they stressed the importance of the quality of the landscapes around housing and the quality of the housing itself. I therefore congratulate the Government on their choice of Mr. Stuart Lipton as the chairman of the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment, which will take over the responsibilities of the former Royal Fine Arts Commission and, I hope, will consider how to encourage design in housing at a more parochial level.

I hope to make three constructive points in the debate about greenfield and brownfield site developments. We are in danger of getting bogged down in a competition as to who can promise the most housing development on brownfield sites. Figures of 42 per cent., 50 per cent., 60 per cent. and two thirds have been mentioned, and I understand that the Liberal Democrats now say that three quarters of developments should be on brownfield sites. The figures will vary in different regions of the country, but the important thing is to ensure that we have a policy of not releasing greenfield sites for development until all brownfield sites that can practically be developed are developed.

Therefore, we must consider development on under-used, unused and derelict brownfield sites. It is not unreasonable for the Secretary of State to insist that each local planning authority develops all available brownfield sites before it allows developers to build in the countryside. Only when the Secretary of State is satisfied that that has been done should he allow greenfield sites to be developed. He can control such matters, because he can use his call-in powers. It may sound simplistic—perhaps it is not a bad thing to have an easily expressed policy—but the Government's policy should simply be to encourage brownfield development wherever possible, to allow development sparingly on greenfield sites and never to build on greenbelt land.

If I have a particular criticism of the Government and the Prime Minister, it relates to the developments that will take place on the greenbelt land to the west of Stevenage and outside Newcastle. It is a shade disingenuous of the Prime Minister to say that the Government have increased the amount of greenbelt land by adding to it undevelopable agriculture land. The whole purpose of a greenbelt policy is not to build on the green belt.

On this business of sequential development under planning policy guidance note 3 on brownfield and greenfield sites, does my hon. Friend agree that planning policy guidance would be even more helpful it if allowed local authorities to cross boundaries, so that rural authorities could meet their brownfield requirement in the urban area next door?

That is a fair suggestion; it is a matter for consideration, and will vary from one part of the country to the other.

Secondly, having said that we must encourage brownfield development, how can it be done? I shall make two suggestions, which I hope are constructive. The first relates to section 106 agreements. It may be prudent to declare that I am a non-practising architect and a non-practising town and country planning consultant. In fact, I have not practised for many years and have been completely unremunerated for even longer. Section 106 agreements are the section 52 agreements of yesteryear.

I am very uneasy about 106 agreements because, at best, they build in taxation: they stipulate that one may build on one site only if more money is put towards another project elsewhere. Given that, these days, we must be very careful to ensure open government and transparent decisions, I am deeply concerned about many 106 agreements. I would far rather there be an open taxation system, under which, in return for—one hopes—exceptional development on greenfield sites, a tax would help subsidise the cleaning up or decontamination of many brownfield sites. I ask the Government seriously to consider that proposal.

My third point—and my second suggestion—refers to something that the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Sanders) has already mentioned. There is a good taxation adage, which goes like this: "If you make an exception for any tax, you create an anomaly." Nowhere is that more true than for value added tax in the construction industry.

The House will know that new dwellings are zero-rated, but that repair, renovation and refurbishment are rated at 17.5 per cent. There has been a trend in London, although I cannot speak for other areas of the country—the Minister may be totally conversant with it, and say that the trend is coming to an end, but I do not think that it is—for converting warehouses and offices to dwellings. In such cases, developers—whether public or private sector—are playing on an uneven field. I realise that there is a problem, and shall spend the couple of minutes left to me to describe it as I understand it.

My argument is that the refurbishment of empty properties and renovation of houses should be zero-rated, in line with new dwellings. However, I understand that that would fall foul of European Community law. The European Court of Justice ruled in 1988, I think, that the scope of our zero rates was too wide, but it accepted that the construction of all buildings for residential use had always been VAT-free and should therefore continue to be treated as such. I do not want to get into an argument about the European issue, but I believe that to be so.

Nevertheless, VAT on renovation or alteration of housing could be reduced to 5 per cent., but only as
"part of a social policy".
I conclude that that means social housing, not privately owned homes.

I understand that the Government are looking into the matter, and that they believe that unifying rates would help to provide a more level playing field—to use their words. However, they also recognise that other economic and technical issues are involved, including European law. I suggest that the Government sort out that inconsistency and, if necessary, lobby very hard for a change in Brussels. As they boast of wanting to ensure that our country is at the heart of Europe, that will be one of my litmus tests to gauge how successful they are in that campaign.

My simple propositions are, first, that there should be open, transparent, but not prohibitive taxation on any greenbelt development, with back-up powers for the Secretary of State to prevent greenfield development where he believes that brownfield sites could be redeveloped. Secondly, there should be subsidy, or at least tax incentives, to defray the extra costs of building on brownfield sites, to encourage building on such sites, for, in most cases, it is the extra costs that make them uneconomic at present. Finally, there should be a comprehensive review with the purpose of unifying VAT on construction.

5.41 pm

I thank the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman) for his constructive and straightforward contribution—in contrast to those of his colleagues.

I shall speak about the erosion of the green belt and green fields in my constituency. However, first I congratulate the Conservative party on being brave enough to call for the debate, because it really has a great deal to answer for. As I remember, for much of the 18 years of Conservative Government, it seemed to be the prevailing view that manufacturing industry did not count for much, and that the future of wealth creation lay with the service sector. Therefore, the only way to create jobs in the north was for local authorities to make increasing amounts of land available for housing on greenfield or greenbelt sites, enabling developers to build so-called executive houses with four or five bedrooms, garages for two cars, and even the odd swimming pool.

The more beautiful the location, the greater the likelihood of attracting service sector entrepreneurs to get into their BMWs and drive up the M1 to expand their empires and convert the natives in areas that they would otherwise have found inhospitable. That view, and consequent Government pressures, led many local authorities, such as Bradford, to release more land for housing in the rural areas to satisfy the Government's demands, based ostensibly on projected household growth.

The Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions still regards the estimate of 4.4 million new households over the 25 years from 1991 to 2016 as the best that there is. However, the Secretary of State, in last year's policy document "Planning for the Communities of the Future", sets out his commitment to ensuring that 60 per cent. of that growth is on brownfield sites—a move very much in the right direction.

The Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, in its report "A Brown and Pleasant Land", claims that 39.6 per cent. of the 4.4 million projected new households are expected to be formed in London and the south-east, whereas only 8.8 per cent. are projected for Yorkshire and Humberside. In the same table, based on DETR figures, we learn that the area of derelict land in London and the south-east amounts to only 11.4 per cent. of the national total, whereas the Yorkshire and Humberside region contains 13.8 per cent. Could it be that Bradford was pushed by the previous Government into putting too much greenbelt land and too many greenfield sites into the last unitary development plan?

My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning and I have exchanged many letters on the subject. I initiated an Adjournment debate last year, and spoke in the debate on the tenth report of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs. My argument, now as then, is that parts of the Bradford UDP should never have been allocated for housing.

The largest proposed site in my constituency, with a possible 1,500 dwellings, is in what is still a very rural and quite beautiful part of the Aire valley. Yorkshire Water cannot as yet say that the main sewer has the capacity to cope with that development and the many other smaller developments in the valley. That suggests that Yorkshire Water was never consulted before the last UDP was drawn up, or that it was and gave unreliable assurances.

The original insistence, agreed by the inspector, that the main access road, including a crossing of the Leeds-Liverpool canal, should be funded by the developers is now becoming increasingly vague.

May I repeat my often-made grouse about outline planning permission given by the UDP inspector for housing at Manor Garth at Addingham in the Wharfe valley and in a field at Leeming, a hamlet above Oxenhope—two of the many attractive rural villages in my constituency? Both Manor Garth and Leeming were changed by the previous Government's inspector from village green space to housing land, in the teeth of opposition by Bradford council and the local communities, for no other reason than that the owners wanted to make money out of the land, which, since allocation for housing, has changed hands several times.

These three aspects of the unitary development plan, which I oppose, were introduced under pressure from the previous Government and approved by their inspector—so much for the Conservative party's commitment to retaining our green and pleasant land. I am saddened that this erosion of the green belt and greenfield sites is to remain in the UDP unchallenged, as though handed down on the proverbial tablets of stone.

Much that is good for urban regeneration is going on in my constituency, mainly through Bradford council's single regeneration budget. Following protracted negotiations, the green light was recently given for the rebuilding and refurbishment of the now near-derelict but once elegant Royal arcade. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions visited us last year and saw other imaginative schemes creating homes in the town centre through the SRB.

I recognise and applaud the fact that the Government are moving away from the predict-and-provide mentality, and that their urban task force has examined ways of finding incentives to move the gaze of developers away from the rich pickings of greenfield sites and towards reclaimed sites. I look forward to the transformation of redundant industrial buildings into apartments, and more living-over-the-shop schemes. If we raise our eyes above the often garish shop windows of our older towns, we find lovely, large Victorian buildings, many unused, whereas in France such town centre assets are put to good use as attractive apartments.

It is good to know that the Government are introducing a regional element into the planning process. I hope that that will stop local authorities competing with one another for developments with their yield of council tax and planning gain, by making yet more greenfield sites available.

With 9,000 empty, mainly older dwellings in the Bradford district, this may be a good time to examine the aggressive selling techniques of developers, which leave the private vendor of an older terraced house at a disadvantage.

Too many assumptions in planning law are in favour of the developer, but the Government are doing much that I applaud in this regard. However, if we are to achieve the much desired 60:40 split, we may have to resort to much more of the carrot and stick through taxation and planning guidelines for developers and local authorities alike.

5.48 pm

It is unfortunate that the Minister for Housing and Planning is not present. He has attended all the other debates in which I have spoken over the past year, and I am sorry that he will miss what I shall say, but perhaps he will read it in the morning.

The Labour party spends its time blaming us, and we spend much of our time blaming the Labour party. The only difference between the two sides is that the Labour party is in government and must accept responsibility. Even if we may have contributed to part of the problem, the Government's job now is to deal with it. There is not much point in their complaining that they are running the country now.

I shall deal with three aspects of Government policy: the number of houses that they believe should be built; planning policy guidance note 3; and local plans. There is a household time-bomb waiting to explode. From the time that the world began until 1990, the population grew to 5 billion. Between 1990 and 2050, it will increase by another 5 billion, making 10 billion—5 billion more people in 60 years. However, the problem with housing is not analogous.

In Britain, the population is not increasing, but massive numbers of additional housing units are required, largely because of increased levels of divorce, the fact that elderly people are living longer, and the movement of young people out of the parental household at an earlier age. In the south-west,. about a third of the new households requiring housing results from in-migration.

The previous Secretary of State believed that 4.4 million new households were required by 2011. He based that on the famous predict and provide formula. The current Secretary of State, though, has managed to spirit away 600,000 households from that figure—with a magician-like quality, they have disappeared into thin air. The figure is now 3.8 million and I say to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer) that the Government have agreed to it. It is no good the Secretary of State mouthing the right words in Whitehall if his voice does not reach the regions. Although he has spirited away all those households, that has not affected the south-west or the regional planning committee, which insists that 438,000 extra households need to be built in Devon by 2011. Devon county council, which is Liberal Democrat run, is locked into the figure of 90,000 and South Hams district council feels obliged to find land for 12,000 new houses.

Although the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Sanders) has taken a little break, it is worth mentioning that the council is expected to build 6,200 new houses. Where will it build them, because it has used up all its brownfield land and there is not much greenfield land? If Torbay's population growth over the past 20 years is projected forward, the indication is that the total population would increase by a factor of only 0.08 per cent., or 983 new dwellings, not the 6,200 quoted under the predict and provide formula.

In March, the Government issued the consultative draft of planning policy guidance note 3, setting out a sequential approach to planning that suggested that local authorities would have the power to prevent greenfield development if they had undeveloped brownfield sites in their area. That was a positive step and I supported it. It seemed even more positive when, during an Adjournment debate on Lord Rogers's report, the Minister stated:
"PPG is a material consideration already…and authorities may have regard to it in considering appropriate planning matters."—[Official Report, 14 July 1999; Vol. 335, c. 361.]
The problem is that, in practice, local authorities will not put PPG3 into effect until it has legal standing. I asked the Minister when it would be published; he replied that it would be published in the relatively near future. That was nearly four months ago. Indeed, in response to a written question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Miss Kirkbride), the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Ms Hughes), stated:
"The final version of PPG3 should be published very shortly."—[Official Report, 1 November 1999; Vol. 337, c. 8.]
When will PPG3 become law and what is meant by "shortly"?

Let us deal with the sequential approach. The Government say that 60 per cent. of new households should be built on previously developed land. What will happen if, as in Torbay, 60 per cent. of new households cannot be built on brownfield sites? The figure is nearer 30 per cent. What will happen to the other 30 per cent? South Hams contains many categories of land under environmental protection, areas of outstanding natural beauty and landscape value, national park land and conservation areas. What is the council supposed to do if the area does not have enough brownfield sites?

That consideration causes me to raise the question whether PPG3 will allow local authorities in a country area to jump over the boundaries into an urban area where there are spare brownfield sites. The local authority in a country area could provide some of that housing allocation in the next-door area—in my case, cities such as Plymouth or Exeter, which have a lot of brownfield sites. That proposal would accelerate their use and the Government must take that important point on board. If they are to insist on a sequential approach in a country area, they will have to ban building on greenfield sites until all the brownfield sites are filled. However, there will still be a requirement for more households. We have to consider PPG3 to be more than a list of the Government's favourite options and I believe that the ability to jump over neighbourhood boundaries is an essential requirement if it is to have real meaning. PPG3 may become a lame duck or a white elephant.

Not at the moment, if the hon. Lady does not mind. If I have time, I shall give way later.

Local authorities have either produced their local plans or are about to do so and those are based on the national figure of 4.4 million new households. That is wrong to start with: if the Government are to reduce the figure to 3.8 million, that has to be fed into the local plans now or they will be based on a false figure and more land than necessary will be taken up for household development.

When developers have not received consent to build on a greenfield site because brownfield sites remain undeveloped, will the inspector say, "You cannot have planning permission to develop an estate because you have not finished up the brownfield sites yet"? Can the Minister explain whether it will it be a Government direction that brownfield sites have to be filled first and that development will be allowed on no greenfield sites until then? Will inspectors support that approach on appeal?

How will the Government cope, even with the figure of 3.8 million new households? Will the planning inspectors pay any regard to infrastructure? If we are to have 3.8 million new households, we will need endless new schools, new shops, new leisure centres, new roads and new water and sewerage pipes for them. Will the Government fund that? If they are to rely on the developers to put in the necessary infrastructure, they can do so only if a development is so massive that the developers will be able to make a big enough profit to install all those facilities. I believe that the household time-bomb has not been spirited away by this new approach. On the contrary, it is ticking away merrily and the Government must address it.

5.57 pm

I listened to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) open the debate and began to wonder which planet he was on. He clearly inhabits a world very different from that inhabited by most of my constituents. The motion refers to a divided Britain, the dereliction of the inner cities and the need for urban regeneration. I am absolutely stunned that Conservative Members have the cheek to talk about a divided Britain and the problems of the inner cities when the people I represent live with the Tory legacy day after day. There are absolutely horrendous problems in towns and cities across the nation.

Conservative Members do not like to be reminded of what they did, but they presided over the biggest ever increase in the gap between rich and poor in this country, destroyed manufacturing industry in the two biggest recessions we have ever experienced and threw hundreds of thousands of people on the scrap heap, consigning them to a future without jobs, hope or any kind of prospects for themselves and their families. I wonder how they dare sit in the Chamber today mouthing platitudes about division and regeneration.

I am perhaps the first Member representing a hard-pressed inner-city area to speak in the debate. The House needs to know the truth about what it is like to try to pick up the pieces after 18 years of Tory misrule. There is still huge unemployment in inner cities throughout the country. The national rate might be down to 5 or 6 per cent., but many inner-city wards still have more than 20 per cent. long-term hard, structural unemployment and generations that have not worked and have no prospect of doing so. There are huge problems of poverty, with 85 to 100 per cent. of children on free school meals in some schools in my constituency. Many of the poorest wards in the country are concentrated in inner-city areas and there are huge problems with health, teenage pregnancy, low birth rate and crime and disorder. Communities are fragmenting.

Hon. Members must realise that we do not all live in the lovely green Britain that we should like to see through our windows, but that many of us live in extremely difficult circumstances. Years of poverty, neglect and deprivation have led to unbalanced communities. Many inner-city areas have either elderly populations or lots of young people and students. There are few families or middle-class people and the communities are completely unbalanced. The challenge for this Government is to try to build sustainable communities with a mix of income, age and skills—people in work and people with something to contribute to their community.

What we have seen, however, is communities falling apart through crime, drugs and poor housing. The challenge to us is to build communities where people have skills and confidence, and to make our cities places where people want to live, work and bring up their families. It is no easy task.

I have a couple of practical suggestions to make to the Government. Unlike Conservative Members, Labour Members genuinely care about people who live in difficult conditions. We do not just shed crocodile tears to take cheap political advantage. First, jobs are absolutely crucial to regeneration. We need to draw investment into areas to create long-term, sustainable employment. To do that, we need to provide land. In many inner-city areas, the cost of reclaiming land and providing services far outstrips the ultimate value of that land. We must ensure that the regional development agencies are sufficiently well resourced to invest in the land needed to provide jobs for the future. It is not a matter of subsidies; it is about long-term investment, and we must recognise that land in inner-city areas is often not worth developing unless the RDA can reclaim it, install the services and make it in a fit state to attract investment.

Secondly, we must ensure that local people have the skills necessary to take up the jobs on offer. The North West regional development agency has just produced its economic and skills strategy, and the document was presented to the Deputy Prime Minister last week. It was prepared in the region, by the region, for the region. I am appalled that the Conservative party wants to abolish regional development agencies. It does not want local decision making, but wants to exercise power from the centre. Conservative Members talk about decentralisation, but they passed 106 pieces of local government legislation designed to draw power to themselves. It was government by diktat. This Government believe in decentralisation, sharing power and ensuring that decisions are taken locally.

We also need to tackle the housing crisis. We must recognise that housing problems differ from place to place. Many northern conurbations have a huge surplus of property; there are not thousands of people desperate for homes. In my area, one borough alone has 6,000 empty properties and one of my inner-city wards, which has huge problems, is losing a voter a day. People are simply upping sticks and walking away to look for work and opportunities because they cannot find them close to home, which is where we should be making the investment.

Some housing stock is simply no longer wanted. People want homes with gardens, somewhere to park their car and somewhere for children to play. Swathes of pre-1919, small terraced housing do not meet the needs of a modern society. Regeneration is not just about bricks and mortar, or about building homes and creating a shell for people to live in; if we are serious about sustainable regeneration, it must be about rebuilding families and communities, and giving people confidence and skills so that they want to live in their areas. That is not an easy task.

The Government are beginning to take action. We have £25 million from the single regeneration budget to deal with some of those deep-seated, long-term problems. Had we taken action 10 or 15 years ago, however, we would not have faced the massive problems that we now face. We would not have to spend millions of pounds to reinvigorate those communities, because they would not have been destroyed in the first place by the heartless, uncaring policies of the previous Government.

May I make a plea to the Government? We need long-term regeneration. We cannot have projects that last a couple of years and then finish; we must have sustainable projects to make those improvements. We need regeneration for the next 10 to 20 years if we are to ensure that our inner cities are vibrant places where people want to live. We also need to tackle crime in the inner cities, otherwise all the money that we invest might as well be poured down a black hole. Unless people feel safe in their communities, they will not want to live there. People will not come back to the cities and will not make them the exciting and vibrant places that we know they can be. People need to feel safe.

May I make another plea? In many northern areas, one of the biggest problems is that of private rented property. In one small area in the centre of my city, of 3,000 homes, 200 have private landlords. Many of them are good, decent landlords, but many others do not care what kind of tenants they have and are simply interested in getting their housing benefit. Unless there is a system of licensing and regulation of private rented property, those houses will continue to become derelict, empty and a blight on many of our communities.

The Government say that they do not want to regulate the private rented sector because that would depress the housing market in London. I am sorry, but many northern regions do not have the problem of excess demand; we have excess supply, which we need to regulate to ensure that landlords run their properties properly so that the communities improve. Will the Government look at the matter again and approach it flexibly? We need local solutions to local problems, which is what the Government believe in. Will they apply that to housing as well as everything else?

This debate is not simply about whether homes are needed in the south east, although some undoubtedly will be; it is about the deeper, underlying problems. I am grateful to the Opposition for initiating this debate because it has given us the chance to expose their hypocrisy, their complete rejection of their own policies, the failure of the free market and, above all, the desperate need of the poorest people in this country to be able to rely on the help of a Labour Government for a generation to come. We had the common-sense revolution in May 1997. Long may it continue.

6.7 pm

The hon. Member for Salford (Ms Blears) raised some serious points and then trivialised them by a ludicrous painting of the previous Conservative Government. She should see things as they really were. When I was a Minister, I had regional responsibility for the north-east. The hon. Lady should go to the north-east and see the transformation that has occurred in both the housing estates and the infrastructure, among other things. She would then understand that Conservatives care deeply about social problems and urban regeneration. I cannot speak for the problems in Salford, but I can for the north-east, which is not known as a Conservative area and is a very long way from my constituency. My right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) did amazing things to encourage regeneration and the injection of private capital alongside public capital.

In his opening speech, the Minister used the phrase "one nation". My late father-in-law was a founder member of One Nation in this House in the early 1950s. It is often forgotten that that group was founded because of dissatisfaction with the then Conservative Government's housing policy. Housing is deeply engrained in Conservative policy because it is important for social stability. This debate, however, is about more than housing; it is about the Government's approach to the whole policy not only of urban regeneration, but of the protection of the countryside and greenbelt land.

I wish that the Minister had spent a little more time clarifying Government policy. Some of the policies that he mentioned could attract cross-party support. There is a continuing need for urban regeneration and a desire on the Opposition Benches, as well as on the Government Benches, for a bottom-up approach. Both sides of the House understand that housing must be put in the much wider context of infrastructure. All that is important. The problem is that the Crow report undermines many of the Government's better objectives.

The report issued this week by the Council for the Protection of Rural England says:
"The Crow report flatly contradicts the many recent improvements which the Government has made to land use planning, urban and regional policy."
Why did not the Minister say that? I understand that he cannot anticipate the planning process and that there are all sorts of hearings, but as a former Minister, I did not always take cover from that. I made my views clear when I disagreed with a report. The Crow report seems to undermine Government policy, but the Minister did not acknowledge that. He should have had the courage to do so, because in my judgment, that will leave him open to criticism from people across the country. We do not know where he stands on some of these crucial issues.

Genuine problems in Surrey need to be addressed. For the reasons that I gave in an earlier intervention, unless clear signals are given, developers will build up land banks in areas where they previously thought it was not worth doing so because they were never going to get planning permission. The Labour Government have not made their policy reaction clear. They could give planning permission on appeal and overrule the wishes of local authorities.

I noticed one critical comment from the Minister—either he was showing courage or I misunderstood him. He said that he would examine closely the Crow report's 50 per cent. target for brownfield sites, and he implied that he wanted the brownfield site target to be higher. Perhaps the Minister who winds up the debate will clarify that point.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Ministers are in extreme difficulty in this area because of the possibility of judicial review? Before they make a pronouncement, they must consider all the detail. It is perhaps simplistic to want the Minister to make a pronouncement now. He has a duty to examine the detail before he makes a statement.

I am familiar with the problems of judicial review, but that argument is a slight exaggeration in these circumstances. The Government set up the panel, and they have a policy. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we have a vacuum and that, until the Government make a formal pronouncement on the Crow report, they should have nothing more to say about these critical issues? That cannot please Labour Members any more than it pleases Conservative Members, or even the Liberal Democrats when they have a consistent policy to put forward.

The position in Surrey is becoming untenable. The recent Surrey Local Government Association report says:
"To require counties such as Surrey, which has over 70 per cent. of its undeveloped land within the Green Belt, to meet projected household formation in full, including a historic backlog, is to negate the very purpose of the Green Belt."
The green belt is crucial to the quality of life in all respects in counties such as Surrey. In my borough of Elmbridge, the effects would be severe. According to the Crow report, Surrey has the highest increase over the draft regional planning guidance figure—an 87 per cent. increase in housing allocation from 48,300 to 90,363. It is difficult to understand how we will go about accommodating that increase.

My borough council officers say that even the draft regional planning guidance figure of 48,300 would be difficult to manage. With local residents keen to protect the environment and character of their communities, the council will be put in a very difficult position. I endorse my local council's concern, and that is on the original target, not the increased allocation announced in the Crow report. That is the extent of the difficulty.

It is not that the south-east does not want to take its share of housing. Figures show that we have always planned for that, and have tried to attain sites. I know from my constituency that we need a mix of social housing. The difficulty is that many of the people who need to buy a house in my area cannot afford to do so. Increasing the number of houses will not make that much difference: it will merely reduce the quality of life.

I urge the Government to produce their integrated transport policy about which we have heard so much. By these targets in the south-east, they are encouraging more people to use cars. Moreover, last week, the Secretary of State overrode an inspector's decision and announced that there would be an M25 service station on land at Cobham Downside in my constituency, which will have considerable and justified local opposition. It is not clear where the Government stand on these issues.

There is a need to plan, monitor and provide for our housing, infrastructure and environmental needs—not the predict and provide elements that the Government, if they encourage the Crow process, are likely to follow. The Government should produce ideas on how to integrate some of the social criteria. It is not clear that mixed estates actually work. In parts of my constituency, social housing is integrated with other housing. We need to think these things through. I am not against the principle, but I want to see it work in practice.

There are other traffic and local infrastructure problems in my constituency. Several substantial developments around Portsmouth road were opposed in principle because of density problems, but they have now been built and are fitting into the environment. However, the traffic implications for Portsmouth road are considerable, and that is creating other tensions. It is not that we do not want development: we want development to be thought through, and we want to give primacy to local opinion. That is the crucial element.

Elmbridge borough council and its councillors deserve the right to state clearly how they can accommodate reasonable expectations, and not have unreasonable demands imposed on them. The Government should take a stand on that, because until they do, there will be deep distrust in my constituency about their true intentions.

6.16 pm

I congratulate the Opposition on choosing this topic for debate, because it is of great importance. Dartford is in the middle of the Thames gateway, which is one of the fastest expanding areas of Europe, let alone the United Kingdom, so planning and development are of particular interest to me.

Unfortunately, the thrust of the Opposition's argument has been that planning is a threat. It is a way of frightening the public. The Conservatives frighten the public over Europe and health, and now they are frightening the public over planning. I take the opposite view. I see sensible planning as a significant opportunity to improve living conditions and the fabric of our society. There are good reasons for saying that. Great demographic changes are taking place in this country. Families are getting smaller and more people are choosing to live alone. As a result, there has been a significant increase in the number of households. Short of telling people not to live so long, it is difficult for the Government to do anything other than respond to the way in which society is going.

Great industrial changes are occurring. Heavy industry in Dartford has completely gone. The quarrying that made Dartford famous for 100 years has almost come to an end, and most of the large quarrying has finished. Most of the cement works in Dartford are moving to other places and changing their operation altogether. That has left Dartford with a number of opportunities: for one thing, it has left some large holes in the ground, one of which is now Bluewater Park, the largest and most prestigious shopping centre in Europe which employs 9,000 people and has been an enormous success. That is an example of how planning can be used imaginatively to change the shape of society in the area and to bring investment as never before. The inward investment in that development is truly massive, and has solved many of the local problems. It has brought many jobs and opportunities to the area, which is to be welcomed.

Dartford has many other holes in the ground: many brownfield sites previously used for industry—some of them polluted—which need regeneration. That should not be regarded as a threat: it represents an opportunity to put right what has gone wrong in the past 100 years—to give something back to the community and to sort out some of the great difficulties that were left behind by a bygone age.

The Government must respond. I am pleased that their target is to have 60 per cent. of housing built on recycled land. The previous Government's target was 50 per cent., and they managed only 42 per cent. In Kent Thameside, which is my side of the river in the Thames gateway, 80 per cent. of new housing is being built on brownfield, recycled land. The target for Kent Thameside is 86 per cent. Over the next 20 years, 30,000 houses are to be built in Kent Thameside, 86 per cent. of which will be on recycled land. How can that be done without causing damage to existing communities? The Government must rise to that challenge, because such massive developments and such great changes can pose a threat to neighbourhoods and communities in the area.

We must ensure that we have sustainable development. If we bung houses on greenfield sites in the middle of nowhere, it is bound to lead to problems, which is why that is exactly what we shall not be doing in Kent Thameside. Our approach is simple. Dartford has a local plan-led system. The local authority produces planning briefs which it sends out to prospective developers telling them what its requirements are for housing density, social housing, infrastructure, section 106 agreements involving community developments and so on. The local authority is therefore very much in control of the way in which land in Dartford and surrounding areas is developed, ensuring that we get the development that we want in the areas in which we want it, at the density that we want.

An exciting feature of my area is the fact that planners are trying to increase planning density. Again, that might be seen as a threat, but it could equally be seen as an opportunity. The planners are currently considering densities 50 per cent. higher than normal densities in suburban areas, and that is leading to some exciting spin-offs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Ms Blears) said earlier that if we were not careful we would get the density calculations wrong, and would end up with land that was not viable for development. In my area some land was so polluted and so damaged, and it cost so much to restore it, that its eventual value was virtually nil. That means that there is no great incentive for development. We should, however, take into account increasing housing densities. It is possible to fit more houses on to the land, and the development of that land thus becomes more viable for the good of the local community.

Another advantage of increased densities is the creation of sustainable neighbourhoods, and the viability of public transport. It is difficult for public transport systems to provide reasonable, affordable services in low-density areas: if they cannot fill the buses and trains, they will lose money. If densities are increased, public transport systems start to make a profit, and to become workable. The same applies to the building of schools and leisure developments.

Kent Thameside has another big advantage: we are able to create the necessary jobs. I am particularly interested in ensuring that, where possible, communities sustain their own employment, so that people need not travel so far and can live, work and play in the same area. If we use the current planning system properly—as I think Labour is doing: we are taking a responsible view—we can create sustainable, workable developments that will meet the demographic needs of the future.

I support what the Government are trying to do. They are increasing the use of brownfield land; they are employing the planning mechanism to ensure that sustainable development occurs wherever possible; and they are ensuring that recycled land is at the forefront of development. They are making certain that as little pressure as possible is put on greenfield land, so that we can preserve the best of what we have and make people's lives better in the future.

6.23 pm

Both the hon. Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate) and the hon. Member for Salford (Ms Blears) made an eloquent case for local decision making. The challenges faced in their constituencies are unique, and anyone who heard the account given on "Newsnight" of the problems on the estates in the hon. Lady's constituency will be in no doubt about Salford's difficulties. Nevertheless, it is entirely wrong to suggest that the same applies to the north-west as a whole—just as it is wrong to try to apply that template to current problems, as we have done for decades. We must change the culture involved in the way in which we tackle the general issue of development.

I am afraid that the Minister's speech does not enable me to take any reassurance back to my constituents. He said that he had paid close attention to the letter that I had signed, along with 69 of my colleagues. The attention cannot have been all that close: clearly the Minister cannot count to 70, as he suggested that only 67 had signed it. Moreover, rather than engaging with the arguments in the letter, he concentrated on point scoring, drawing attention to those who had or had not signed it.

We cannot underestimate the threat faced by, in particular, the south-east. The Minister tried to suggest that it was trite to talk about five cities the size of Southampton being built in the south-east. In fact, the Crow report recommends 12; five is simply the difference between Serplan's recommended figure of seven and 12, which amounts to 1.1 million houses. The Minister may sit there shaking his head, but we want to demonstrate the seriousness of the issue to our constituents, and this is a useful way of illustrating the scale of the building and infrastructure that will go into the south-east. It is equivalent to 20 per cent. more houses—about 10,000 more houses in each constituency.

Those calculations are based on the household growth figures, which have been debated before. We must find a way of ceasing to be tied to those figures. We are talking about a population whose size is not changing throughout the country: we are talking about migration. The Minister wrote off migration, claiming that it was of little importance, but that is not true. I am indebted to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) for citing the Office for National Statistics figures which were given to Serplan, and which said that, over the last six years, the population of the south-east had increased—as a result of inward migration—by 196,200. That migration includes 39,500 from Merseyside, 50,900 from the West Midlands metropolitan area and 36,600 from the Greater Manchester area.

A problem has clearly been caused by migration from the north, the north-west, the midlands and other parts of the country to the south-east. Those are precisely the people whom the hon. Member for Salford is trying to retain, in order to build sustainable communities in her area. If, by our national policy, we encourage the building of houses down in the south-east to follow economic demand, we shall make the task of Government, and that of Members representing constituencies in more challenged regions, infinitely more difficult.

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to tell all local authorities in his area that they should stop trying to promote development by industry in their areas?

No. The judgment must be made by local people. Local authorities are in the best position to judge whether their areas are in serious need of economic regeneration—in which case they should have a relaxed planning policy, encouraging firms to come in—or whether the major danger to those whom they represent is the destruction of their quality of life by the concreting of the countryside and the "levering" of vast numbers of houses into towns whose infrastructure is already overstretched, which would ruin the community, even if the result was a degree less of economic growth.

I believe that, in some respects, the Crow analysis is fundamentally flawed. It is based on the view that economic opportunities should be increased everywhere. The philosophy that a growth in gross domestic product comes first and foremost, and that every other consideration is secondary, is a disaster for the south-east of England—as is Crow's view that the south-east should be recognised as having a role as the gateway to the United Kingdom and
"as an engine of growth in the national economy, and that the regional economy therefore needs to be supported and further developed throughout."
That philosophy will cause areas such as Salford to face an even greater challenge than they face now.

Reading the Crow report, I feel that we have interrupted a debate between planners of the 1960s and planners of the 1940s. I am not familiar with the history of planning, and had not previously encountered the views criticised by Professor Crow and his panel. According to them, the view that one should be more restrictive about supporting economic growth in the south-east in order to confer advantage to other parts of the country,
"with its manifest overtones of post-war Barlow based industrial development policy, we were advised was not current Government thinking. Rather, it was a question of the economy being encouraged 'to go ahead at full speed on all engines'."
I had not come across Mr. Barlow before, but I must say that I am warming to him. I am not entirely sure, however, that trying to apply templates of the 1940s or the 1960s now is the answer. We have arrived, just about, at the new millennium, and we shall have to look at how we deal with all these issues in a completely new way.

Professor Crow goes on to say:
"The policy designation of 'Area of Economic Pressure' should be deleted from draft RPG, to be replaced by a policy which seeks out smaller local areas where road congestion and labour shortage are to be tackled positively, by…the elimination of congestion hot-spots and by new house-building…within sustainable travelling distance."
We cannot eliminate regional hot spots and congestion by house building: indeed, house building will make them worse because the need will arise to provide infrastructure—to provide schools and to ensure that people can take their children to school and get to work—in all those areas. We cannot assume that we can get rid of congestion by building houses. That seems an extraordinary suggestion.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that a certain population density leads to congestion but is not enough to sustain a proper public transport system, and that, in those circumstances, it is precisely by intensifying development that we can allow public transport to develop and to relieve the congestion?

There may be merit in the hon. Lady's case, but the position will vary from community to community. Communities are in the best position to come to those judgments, rather than the Government trying to impose a template on the whole country, which is the position that we are in. The Stephen Crow report says that Serplan was not allowed to advocate reducing the number of houses that should be built in the south-east. It considered that advocating changes in Government policy—diverting from the Government's target of 1.1 million houses in the south-east, which is what falls out of the household projection—was out of place in the regional planning guidance.

We will still be on predict and provide, unless Ministers are brave enough to reject the Crow numbers completely. The point has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor). It is not possible for Surrey to accommodate even the Serplan totals, let alone the new total: the increase of 120 per cent. advocated by Professor Crow. If the Minister rejects the Crow numbers, he will reject—I would thoroughly welcome it—the total number for the whole country.

We have welcomed the rhetoric of the Government and the comments that were attributed to the Deputy Prime Minister in the debate in the House in February last year, but, when the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs examined Government policy, it found that the rhetoric was still not supported by detail.

For example, the Committee found, at paragraph 14 of its report:
"The remarkable aspect of this section of the draft PPG is that it makes no mention of Plan, Monitor and Manage, the new system for ensuring the provision of housing."
The Committee says that it received evidence that the system
"now appears very similar to predict and provide".
It said:
"We recommend that the final PPG outline how the plan, monitor and manage system will operate."
Obviously, that will be—

6.33 pm

I am grateful to be called to make what will be, I suspect, one of my shortest contributions ever in the Chamber.

Having heard the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) expound the bizarre theory that is set out in the "Common Sense Revolution for Town and Country" document, I suspect that my constituents will be scared rigid at the prospect of his return to office. What on earth would happen if he ever got his hands on the planning system in England? I only wish that my constituents could have been in the public gallery to hear his speech.

My constituency is on the edge of the Bradford district. Like those of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer), my constituents have seen the steady erosion of important and valuable greenfield sites over the past couple of decades, largely because of the rigid predict and provide approach that was taken by the Conservative Administration.

I am a keen supporter of the move towards a more flexible approach. Let us look at moving away from predict and provide towards a system where local needs can be met in more flexible local plans, taking into account local demands. I am also keen to see a real move towards the use of recycled land.

One of the things that scares me most about the Conservative policy document is its undertone—its subtext. If hon. Members read it carefully, they will see a variety of quotes that add up to an attack on northern greenfield sites in particular. The right hon. Member for Wokingham said again today that local authorities—not all; just those in well-developed areas that already have high employment—should be allowed to halt new damaging greenfield developments. I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman nodding.

0That means that, in constituencies such as mine, green fields are less important; they do not really matter. My constituents value their green open spaces just as much as the right hon. Gentleman's constituents do. They will be shocked and appalled at the new threat that the Conservatives will pose come the next general election. I hope that the move towards social engineering—[Interruption.]

Order. We cannot have loud private conversations. I am speaking to certain Conservative Members.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Conservative Members do not want to listen because they have twigged the fatal flaw in their planning policies—it is anti-northernism writ large. They are moving towards social engineering, saying that people cannot live where they want to live, and that they will say where people will live. They are not just saying, "Not in my backyard"; they are saying, "Not in your backyard."

The move towards engineering where people should live not only smacks of bizarre lurch-to-the-right type Thatcherism but is strange in other ways. Traffic congestion would increase enormously. Commuters would travel even further distances throughout the country. I do not know quite what has inspired the policy, except that I feel that the Conservatives are looking at their constituencies and forgetting about what the rest of the nation needs, as ever. It does not matter to those on the Conservative Front Bench what the problems are in the Bradford district, where a number of sites, including Warren lane in Gilstead, Sty lane in Micklethwaite and Jenny lane in Baildon have been threatened as a result of the unitary development plans that were set up under the previous Administration. Those sites are valued and cherished by local residents. They would all be threatened by the Conservatives's new policy, which says that local authorities in the south, which is well developed and where there is no problem with unemployment, can have freedom to turn down greenfield development, but those in the north, where there are problems with regeneration and so on, have to take on such development. That is an outrage, and the sooner people know about it, the better.

6.38 pm

The debate has been instructive in many ways. From those on the Conservative Benches, we have heard common-sense, practical suggestions that would protect our green fields and regenerate our inner cities; from those on the Government Benches, a desperation to argue only about the past—no hope, no vision, no ideas. The Minister's feeble attempt to live in the past contrasted starkly with forward-looking contributions from my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) and my hon. Friends the Members for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman), for Totnes (Mr. Steen), for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) and for Reigate (Mr. Blunt).

What is bizarre about the Government's attitude to the debate is that all we are doing is asking the Government to do something that is right and popular: stop concreting over our green fields and start rebuilding our great cities. In response to that modest and sensible proposal, all we get is sour-faced abuse, not least from the Minister for Local Government and the Regions, who has not been here for a second of the debate.

As a Kent Member, the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the position in the county of Sussex. Does he accept that, in the western part of Sussex, in the past 20 years, his party concreted over with retail just about every site possible along the A27 corridor? Is it not about time that he and others apologised to the House?

I commend to the hon. Gentleman our policy on common sense for the environment, which proposes giving more power to local councils, so that they are able to decide the amount of development that they want. He should also confer on Labour's position with the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Leslie)—who, not five minutes ago, made exactly the opposite argument—so that we may have some coherent argument from Labour Members. Their position is so incoherent because they are deeply embarrassed by the gap between the overblown promises that they made in opposition and the overwhelming disappointment that they have delivered in office.

On 25 January 1997, in a Labour press release, the current Minister for the Environment stated:
"We will make the next Labour Government the first truly green Government that Britain has ever seen."
The reality is that every pressure group dealing with the environment thinks that that target has been missed completely.

The head of policy for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds said that the Prime Minister
"is not interested in the environment and he has surrounded himself with advisers"—
and Ministers—
"who are not interested either".
If the Government do not want to take criticism from environmental non-governmental organisations, perhaps they will take it from an organisation that is not often quoted by a Conservative spokesman—the Fabian Society. The society's general secretary has recently produced a pamphlet, which states:
"it's evident that New Labour is not comfortable on this territory"—
the environment, in other words. The pamphlet continues:
"Labour does not perceive environmental issues to be major priorities for ordinary voters. In fact they tend to see them as positively anti-voter".
I think that that is an honest assessment of the Government's attitude to all environmental matters.

The effects of the Government's neglect may be seen across the country, but perhaps nowhere more starkly than in Hertfordshire. This morning, I visited the now infamous site—mentioned several times in the debate—west of Stevenage where the Government have approved the concreting over of 2,000 unspoilt acres. It will be an act of desecration which has been proposed and pushed through by a Lib-Lab council pact. We should, therefore, be spared any sanctimonious noises from Liberal Democrat Members on their concern for the environment.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, without the west of Stevenage development, every little piece of green space in town centres in places such as Stevenage and my own constituency of Watford will be packed with new houses, diminishing the amenities of those who already live in those overcrowded towns and cities?

Although that might be valid generally, it is not valid for Stevenage—which I recommend that the hon. Lady visit. The Government and their allies want to destroy four unspoilt miles of Langley valley, although immediately adjacent to it is a large derelict industrial site—which is precisely where new development would not only be welcome, but would improve the environment. I urge the Minister to visit the site, where, in one place, one is able to comprehend everything that is wrong with the Government's planning policy. He should go there and repent.

I was, therefore, pleased to join Conservative councillors who are fighting that dreadful plan by signing a countryside charter for Hertfordshire, in an attempt to defend green land that the Government want to desecrate. Across the country, however, we shall suffer similar vandalism if the Government do not change course.

Much of today's debate has been about the Crow report, which has singled out my own constituency for what it calls, with ghastly clarity, "plan-led growth". It wants to triple the size of Ashford in 20 years—ripping up Kent, making a patio of the garden of England. Sadly, one leading member of the local Labour party has already welcomed the plan. In a letter to a local newspaper, the Kentish Express, she has even described it as the Deputy Prime Minister's "future vision for Ashford". I genuinely hope that she is misrepresenting him, and that a concrete jungle is not his vision of the future.

Nevertheless, a pattern is emerging. My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate produced a letter protesting against the Crow report, but Labour Members ran a mile rather than sign it. Labour Members, too, should repent. Will they join us today in the Lobby, to protest about the Crow report? If that is a bit brave for them, will they at least publicly abstain in the Division?

No; I do not have enough time.

Conversely, will Labour Members insult their constituents and demonstrate their lack of independence? Although the hon. Member for Watford (Ms Ward) said that she wrote to the Deputy Prime Minister, she did not say what she wrote.

The hon. Gentleman will probably not be surprised to hear that I have some concerns about the report. However, the Secretary of State is considering responses to the Crow report in a manner allowing sufficient lead-in time in which to consult. He does not want to make the decision on the hoof, as Conservative Members would like him to do.

If the hon. Lady is saying that she is against the proposals, I shall welcome her support for our motion.

The hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey), too, should read our policy document. She described the type of development that she wants, and our proposals would allow local people to decide the level of local development—[Interruption.] The Minister for Local Government and the Regions should attend debates before she tries to disrupt the reply to them.

Does the hon. Gentleman concede that his Conservative colleagues on Buckingharrishire county council—aided and abetted by some of the Liberal Democrat council members—support the notion of additional housing in Milton Keynes as a way of avoiding building it in the rest of Buckingharrishire—but do not support the notion of its being plan led and simply want it crammed in?

As I said, the hon. Lady is welcome to agree with our proposal to ensure that development is based on local decisions. I am also glad that Labour Members are now on record as favouring plan-led growth, which is a severe threat to many parts of the country, and not only to the south-east.

We are suspicious of the Secretary of State's motives because, under the Crow proposals, he would be able to make general remarks on development levels. He should reject Crow also because Crow rejects the Government's own policy. The Deputy Prime Minister said that predict and provide is dead, but the Crow report said that household projections
"must be used as the basis for establishing the regional provision for housing".
Although the report flatly contradicts the Government's own policy, the Secretary of State cannot bring himself to reject it.

I offer some constructive suggestions for action that the Government could take to protect the land. Ministers should make the planning process more sensitive to the views of local people and more open and transparent. They should scrap rigid central forecasts of housing need and protect the green belt.

Those of us who have some affection for the Deputy Prime Minister's unique relationship with the English language simply smiled when, on 16 April 1999, he said:
"The Green Belt is a Labour achievement, and we mean to build on it."
The problem is that we were being too kind to him—he really meant it. Now, we have seen a leaked report from the performance and innovation unit, stating a desire to build also on our prime agricultural land. No green field is safe from the Government.

Today, will the Minister at least give us a reassurance that moves to weaken controls on land that is now protected from development will be strongly resisted by the Department?

The Conservative motion mentions "limiting greenfield housing construction". Do their arguments apply also to commercial development?

I should love to deal with commercial development and with roads, but, in three minutes, it would be a little ambitious even to try. Everything proposed in the debate by Labour Members entailed increasing the need for cars, and therefore for roads. The Government are being spectacularly incoherent on that issue.

The way to avoid the two Britains that the Government are creating is to regenerate our towns and cities, in both the south and the north. We could do that by setting higher targets for brownfield development; altering planning guidance, to make it easier to build on those brown fields; and taking the Rogers report seriously, not simply filing it away, as the Government have done.

The Government should realise that once Britain's trees, fields and wildlife have gone, they are gone for ever. The Government who are responsible for that destruction will deserve the anger and contempt of future generations for letting it happen.

The Government are failing the cities and the countryside, and breaking their pre-election promises. They are creating two nations: one that is overbuilt and overcrowded; another that is underdeveloped or under-regenerated. In planning, as in so much else, the Government's claim to the one-nation mantle is a great Labour lie. I commend our motion to the House.

6.49 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions
(Ms Beverley Hughes)

As we might have expected, this has been a lively debate, with some excellent speeches by my hon. Friends. We have also heard a great deal of outrage, and not a little amnesia, expressed by Conservative Members. Nevertheless, I am glad that they have discovered—albeit belatedly—a new concern about the green belt and about how to marry the competing objectives of enabling economic growth, providing homes and protecting the countryside.

The debate has highlighted the fact that Conservative Members have still not accepted responsibility for their past failures; they still do not understand the complex natures of these issues, and are still floundering to put together an effective policy to deal responsibly with them. It is no surprise that Conservative Members want to forget about the past, but we will not let them, because they are responsible for the current situation.

Let me remind Conservative Members of a few facts. First, the previous Administration regarded planning as an obstacle to free-market economics. They thought that the decisions of the market would be in everybody's best interests and that they should prevail. The greenfield housing estates and out-of-town developments that appear to upset Conservative Members so much have, for the best part of the past two decades, been the result of their Government's "let green fields rip" policy. In every year of the last decade the Conservative party was in power, there was a net loss to the green belt. I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer) and for Castle Point (Mrs. Butler) for outlining the devastation that their constituencies have experienced, and for describing the Conservative Government's abject failure to protect the green belt. Much as we would like to, we cannot reverse the direction of their planning and development system overnight. Planning permissions have five-year lives, and some of the previous Government's legacy is still being felt.

Secondly, although Opposition Members have spent the past few hours rubbishing the system of planning for housing, they invented it and then enforced it for many years. Predict and provide is an inflexible, dictatorial, top-down approach, which ignored local views, although the current Conservative approach is to take them into account. I acknowledge the comments of the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Sanders) on the impact of that system on homelessness and housing, but his suggestion of taxing and spending his way out of those problems is not an option.

Thirdly, none of the Tory speakers acknowledged the run-down of our towns and cities, the failure to help people living in the countryside, the growing gap between regions and the impact of industrial and rural decline under the Tories that caused so much human and economic suffering. Indeed, the right hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) chose to ignore the fact that, under her Government, 100,000 farming jobs in the countryside were lost. In stark contrast was the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Ms Blears), who graphically outlined the impact of Tory policies on her constituency.

My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning outlined in some detail the radical change of policy on planning that we have instituted, including a real ownership of decision-making through the regional process—a local, transparent system. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Leslie) for highlighting a fact that seems to have escaped Conservative Members' notice—that the issues of green belt land and countryside are particularly important for constituents living in the north and in industrial areas.

My hon. Friends the Members for Dartford (Dr. Stoate) and for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) gave a considered analysis of the complex set of social, economic, demographic and environmental issues that we face. They referred to the need for a balanced, flexible but robust approach to meet those competing objectives.

The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir S. Chapman) was the one exception on the Tory Benches who made a thoughtful contribution. I do not want to get the hon. Gentleman into trouble, but I am pleased that he supports the Government's emphasis on the importance both of design and of the sequential approach. We have had constructive meetings with Stuart Lipton to take those issues forward.

The hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) raised many detailed questions. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman fully understands the issue, but I can tell him that PPG3 will be published by the end of the year, when it will become effective, and that inspectors will be able to take account of infrastructure in applying the sequential approach.

Conservative Members made a great deal of the issue of migration to the south-east, and of the panel report. Most people looking for housing in the south-east are south-easterners. Pulling up the drawbridge, as the Tories want, will price local people out of the housing market and cause untold misery. It is a shame that the hon. Members for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) and for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) did not listen to my hon. Friend the Minister of State when he said that our response to the panel report is under consideration; it will be a detailed response, and we will give it as soon as we can. In the meantime, those hon. Gentlemen would serve their constituencies better if they stopped talking about fear and time bombs and started thinking constructively about the issues faced by their constituents.

The Tories' so-called common-sense revolution proposes a number of policies. Sustainable and development protecting the green belt—we are doing it; regenerating towns and cities—we are doing it; modernising the planning system—we are doing that too. There is a revolution taking place, and it was started in May 1997 by this Government. Not for the first time, the Tories are behind the times, and I am glad that they are adopting some of our policies now.

Conservative proposals for dismantling our new planning structure at regional level are nothing short of irresponsible. Such proposals would result in essential houses not being available for people in the area who need them. What about local need? What about the children of families living in the south and the south-east? What about those who cannot afford to buy a home? What about older people in housing need? The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) would have them all turned out and forced to live somewhere else—presumably in the north, as he puts it. He does not want them on his patch, and most would be completely priced out of the market by the reductions in housing provision that he proposes. [Interruption.] We can always tell when we are touching a nerve. Far from planning for one nation, the right hon. Gentleman's latest proposals would result in two nations—the well-off who could afford to stay in the south, and the rest who would have to fend for themselves.

The hypocrisy of the Tories' new-found deathbed concern about the divide between rich and poor, north and south is truly breathtaking. They shed crocodile tears about the two Britains that their Government did so much to create, but their proposals are nothing more than a thinly veiled version of that well-known Tory tradition—a policy not for the many, but just for the few.

We know all about Tory policy on two Britains. What else would we expect from the party that closed the pits, shut the steelworks, devastated manufacturing, ignored the countryside and left the regions to fend for themselves in the name of the free market? People out there will tell the Tories what they told them in May 1997: "On your bike, and take your nonsensical policy with you."

The Government are repairing the damage done by the Tories. We are safeguarding the countryside, regenerating towns and cities, rebuilding communities and ensuring a sustainable future for all our regions and the whole of the United Kingdom.

rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.

Question put accordingly, That the original words stand part of the Question:—

The House divided: Ayes 185, Noes 346.

Division No. 280]

[6.59 pm

AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Allan, RichardBrowning, Mrs Angela
Amess, DavidBruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Ancram, Rt Hon MichaelBruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon JamesBurnett, John
Ashdown, Rt Hon PaddyBurstow, Paul
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Butterfill, John
Baker, NormanCampbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)
Baldry, Tony
Bercow, JohnChapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, CrispinChidgey, David
Body, Sir RichardChope, Christopher
Boswell, TimClappison, James
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs VirginiaClarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Brady, Graham
Brake, TomClifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Brand, Dr PeterCollins, Tim
Brazier, JulianColvin, Michael
Breed, ColinCormack, Sir Patrick

Cotter, BrianMadel, Sir David
Cran, JamesMalins, Humfrey
Curry, Rt Hon DavidMaples, John
Davey, Edward (Kingston)Maude, Rt Hon Francis
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice & Howden)May, Mrs Theresa
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Duncan, AlanMoore, Michael
Duncan Smith, IainMoss, Malcolm
Emery, Rt Hon Sir PeterNicholls, Patrick
Evans, NigelNorman, Archie
Faber, DavidOaten, Mark
Fabricant, MichaelO'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Fallon, MichaelÖpik, Lembit
Fearn, RonnieOttaway, Richard
Flight, HowardPage, Richard
Forsythe, CliffordPaice, James
Forth, Rt Hon EricPaterson, Owen
Foster, Don (Bath)Pickles, Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir NormanPrior, David
Fox, Dr LiamRandall, John
Fraser, ChristopherRedwood, Rt Hon John
Gale, RogerRendel, David
Garnier, EdwardRobathan, Andrew
George, Andrew (St Ives)Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Gibb, NickRowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Gill, ChristopherRuffley, David
Gorman, Mrs TeresaRussell, Bob (Colchester)
Gray, JamesSt Aubyn, Nick
Green, DamianSanders, Adrian
Greenway, JohnSayeed, Jonathan
Grieve, DominicShephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Gummer, Rt Hon JohnShepherd, Richard
Hague, Rt Hon WilliamSimpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchieSmith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Hammond, PhilipSmyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Hawkins, NickSoames, Nicholas
Heald, OliverSpelman, Mrs Caroline
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)Spicer, Sir Michael
Heath, Rt Hon Sir EdwardSpring, Richard
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon DavidStanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Hogg, Rt Hon DouglasSteen, Anthony
Horam, JohnStreeter, Gary
Howard, Rt Hon MichaelStunell, Andrew
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)Swayne, Desmond
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)Syms, Robert
Hunter, AndrewTapsell, Sir Peter
Jack, Rt Hon MichaelTaylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Jenkin, BernardTaylor, Matthew (Truro)
Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir GeoffreyTaylor, Sir Teddy
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)Townend, John
Keetch, PaulTredinnick, David
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)Trend, Michael
Key, RobertTyler, Paul
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)Viggers, Peter
Kirkbride, Miss JulieWalter, Robert
Kirkwood, ArchyWardle, Charles
Laing, Mrs EleanorWaterson, Nigel
Lansley, AndrewWebb, Steve
Leigh, EdwardWells, Bowen
Letwin, OliverWhitney, Sir Raymond
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)Whittingdale, John
Lidington, DavidWilkinson, John
Lilley, Rt Hon PeterWilletts, David
Livsey, RichardWillis, Phil
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)Wilshire, David
Llwyd, ElfynWinterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Loughton, TimWinterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Luff, PeterWoodward, Shaun
MacGregor, Rt Hon JohnYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
McIntosh, Miss Anne
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew

Tellers for the Ayes:

Maclean, Rt Hon David

Mrs. Jacqui Lait and

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mr. Stephen Day.

NOES

Abbott, Ms DianeCrausby, David
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Ainger, NickCryer, John (Hornchurch)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Cummings, John
Alexander, DouglasCunliffe, Lawrence
Allen, GrahamCunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Atherton, Ms CandyCurtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Atkins, CharlotteDalyell, Tam
Austin, JohnDarling, Rt Hon Alistair
Banks, TonyDarvill, Keith
Barnes, HarryDavey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Barron, KevinDavidson, Ian
Battle, JohnDavies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Bayley, HughDawson, Hilton
Beard, NigelDean, Mrs Janet
Begg, Miss AnneDenham, John
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)Dismore, Andrew
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)Dobbin, Jim
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)Donohoe, Brian H
Bennett, Andrew FDoran, Frank
Bermingham, GeraldDowd, Jim
Berry, RogerDrew, David
Best, HaroldDunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Blackman, LizEagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Blears, Ms HazelEagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Blizzard, BobEfford, Clive
Blunkett, Rt Hon DavidEllman, Mrs Louise
Boateng, PaulEnnis, Jeff
Borrow, DavidEtherington, Bill
Bradley, Keith (Withington)Field, Rt Hon Frank
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Fisher, Mark
Brinton, Mrs HelenFitzpatrick, Jim
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)Fitzsimons, Lorna
Browne, DesmondFlint, Caroline
Buck, Ms KarenFlynn, Paul
Burden, RichardFollett, Barbara
Butler, Mrs ChristineFoster, Rt Hon Derek
Byers, Rt Hon StephenFoster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Foulkes, George
Gapes, Mike
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Gardiner, Barry
Cann, JamieGeorge, Bruce (Walsall S)
Caplin, IvorGerrard, Neil
Casale, RogerGibson, Dr Ian
Caton, MartinGilroy, Mrs Linda
Cawsey, IanGodsiff, Roger
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)Goggins, Paul
Chaytor, DavidGolding, Mrs Llin
Clapham, MichaelGordon, Mrs Eileen
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)Grocott, Bruce
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)Grogan, John
Clelland, DavidGunnell, John
Clwyd, AnnHain, Peter
Coaker, VernonHamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Coffey, Ms AnnHanson, David
Cohen, HarryHarman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Coleman, IainHeal, Mrs Sylvia
Colman, TonyHealey, John
Connarty, MichaelHenderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Hepburn, Stephen
Cooper, YvetteHeppell, John
Corbett, RobinHesford, Stephen
Corbyn, JeremyHill, Keith
Corston, Ms JeanHinchliffe, David
Cousins, JimHodge, Ms Margaret
Cox, TomHoey, Kate
Cranston, RossHope, Phil

Hopkins, KelvinMoffatt, Laura
Howells, Dr KimMoonie, Dr Lewis
Hoyle, LindsayMoran, Ms Margaret
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Humble, Mrs JoanMountford, Kali
Hurst, AlanMowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Hutton, JohnMullin, Chris
Iddon, Dr BrianMurphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Illsley, EricMurphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Jenkins, BrianNaysmith, Dr Doug
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)O'Hara, Eddie
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)Olner, Bill
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)O'Neill, Martin
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)Organ, Mrs Diana
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)Osborne, Ms Sandra
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms TessaPalmer, Dr Nick
Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldPearson, Ian
Keeble, Ms SallyPendry, Tom
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)Perham, Ms Linda
Kelly, Ms RuthPickthall, Colin
Kemp, FraserPike, Peter L
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)Plaskitt, James
Khabra, Piara SPollard, Kerry
Kidney, DavidPond, Chris
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)Pope, Greg
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)Powell, Sir Raymond
Kumar, Dr AshokPrentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Ladyman, Dr StephenPrentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Lawrence, Ms JackiePrimarolo, Dawn
Laxton, BobProsser, Gwyn
Lepper, DavidPurchase, Ken
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, TomQuin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)Quinn, Lawrie
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)Rammell, Bill
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs HelenRapson, Syd
Linton, MartinRaynsford, Nick
Livingstone, KenReed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Llwyd, ElfynRobinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Love, AndrewRoche, Mrs Barbara
McAvoy, ThomasRogers, Allan
McCabe, SteveRooker, Jeff
McCafferty, Ms ChrisRooney, Terry
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
McDonagh, SiobhainRoy, Frank
Macdonald, CalumRuane, Chris
McDonnell, JohnRuddock, Joan
McGuire, Mrs AnneRussell, Ms Christine (Chester)
McIsaac, ShonaRyan, Ms Joan
McKenna, Mrs RosemarySalter, Martin
MacShane, DenisSarwar, Mohammad
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, TonySavidge, Malcolm
Mallaber, JudySawford, Phil
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)Sedgemore, Brian
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)Shaw, Jonathan
Marshall, David (Shettleston)Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)Shipley, Ms Debra
Marshall-Andrews, RobertShort, Rt Hon Clare
Martlew, EricSimpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Maxton, JohnSingh, Marsha
Meale, AlanSkinner, Dennis
Merron, GillianSmith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Milburn, Rt Hon AlanSmith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Miller, AndrewSmith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Mitchell, Austin

Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Snape, PeterTurner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Soley, CliveTwigg, Derek (Halton)
Southworth, Ms HelenTwigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Spellar, JohnTynan, Bill
Squire, Ms RachelVaz, Keith
Starkey, Dr PhyllisVis, Dr Rudi
Steinberg, GerryWalley, Ms Joan
Stevenson, GeorgeWard, Ms Claire
Stewart, David (Inverness E)Wareing, Robert N
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)Watts, David
Stinchcombe, PaulWhite, Brian
Stoate, Dr HowardWhitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Strang, Rt Hon Dr GavinWilliams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Stringer, GrahamWilliams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Stuart, Ms GiselaWills, Michael
Sutcliffe, GerryWinnick, David
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)Wise, Audrey
Taylor, David (NW Leics)Wood, Mike
Temple-Morris, PeterWoolas, Phil
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)Worthington, Tony
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)Wray, James
Timms, StephenWright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Tipping, PaddyWyatt, Derek
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don

Tellers for the Noes:

Trickett, Jon

Mr. David Jamieson and

Truswell, Paul

Mr. Clive Betts.

Question accordingly negatived.

Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House welcomes the Government's continued commitment to sustainable growth, safeguarding the countryside and promoting an urban renaissance; welcomes the establishment of Regional Development Agencies and the policies and programmes which have been put in place to improve the prosperity and quality of life of the regions and supports the targeting of regeneration initiatives in areas of greatest need; recognises that the Government's integrated, inclusive and strategic approach is encouraging urban and industrial regeneration; welcomes the Government's inter-linked policies for revitalising the UK's towns and cities and protecting the countryside; supports the Government's target for building 60 per cent. of all new housing on previously developed land and welcomes the new housing planning policy guidance which encourages "in town" brownfield site development first under a phased sequential test; supports this Government's approach to new out-of-town shopping developments; welcomes the Government's move away from the previous "predict and provide" approach to housing provision and the introduction of a "plan, monitor and manage" policy under the new regional planning policy arrangements, including Examination in Public and Independent Panel assessment; recognises the need for a more detailed evaluation of land availability and capacity and welcomes the establishment of a National Land Use Database; supports the Government's policies on protecting the Green Belt; and believes the Government's planning, housing, transport, countryside protection, welfare and economic policies will achieve more sustainable and equitable patterns of both urban and rural development.

City Of London (Ward Elections) Bill

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [28 October].

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the City of London (Ward Elections) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid;
That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House;
That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill presented in the House in the present Session;
That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) and shall be committed to the Chairman of Ways and Means;
That the Chairman of Ways and Means shall make such Amendments thereto as have been made by the committee in the present Session, and shall report the Bill as amended to the House forthwith, and the Bill, so amended, shall be ordered to be considered;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session;
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Question again proposed.

7.14 pm

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are about to consider further the carry-over resolution on the City of London (Ward Elections) Bill. On previous consideration of the Bill, I asked whether the Human Rights Act 1998 applied to it. We were informed that section 19 of that Act, which obliges the promoter of a public Bill—a Minister—to make a statement about the compliance of proposed legislation with that Act, did not apply to a private Bill. When I raised the matter, we were informed that as there was no Minister promoting or in charge of the Bill, because it was a private Bill, that section of the Human Rights Act did not apply.

May I ask for clarification from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker—if not this evening, at least for the future? I hope that this Bill will die tonight, but for future such legislation, we need to know whether the House can be advised whether the Human Rights Act applies to private legislation.

Surely any legislation coming before the House must comply with the Human Rights Act, which the House passed overwhelmingly in November 1998. Surely the House must be advised in some way—if not by a Minister, by an Officer of the House—whether a piece of proposed legislation that comes before the House complies with that Act, and with the human rights convention. I seek clarification from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for the sake of our consideration of future legislation.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving notice of his point of order. As the House knows, there is nothing in the Human Rights Act that applies its provisions to private legislation. The House will also understand that it is not possible for the occupant of the Chair unilaterally to change the rules of the House, which are of general application, in respect of the Bill that is the subject of tonight's carry-over motion. However, I believe that what the hon. Gentleman has said in making his point of order will be given further consideration, and I thank him for raising the matter.

7.17 pm

The principle reflected in this evening's motion—that a private Bill may be carried over from one Session to the next—is well established. It informed the recommendations of the Modernisation Committee's third report, on carrying over public Bills, which was agreed by the House on 9 March 1998.

We have recent experience of the carry-over procedure for the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which was debated last week. That was a novelty, but the practice of carrying over private Bills is well established. Paragraph 3 of the report of the Modernisation Committee says:
"The main purpose of this procedure is to avoid the repetition of the processes and expense peculiar to private legislation."
The procedure is often—perhaps I may even venture to say usually—a formality. The London Local Authorities Bill, for instance, was carried over without debate last week. The Bill before us has, as I have particular reason to know, enjoyed a degree of controversy in the House. Subject to the will of the House in supporting the motion, I have no doubt that we shall have further debates in the new Session on the substance of the Bill—but tonight is procedural, and I will therefore not seek now to range over its detailed provisions.

I would, however, like to refer to the principle of the use of rateable values in the Bill to establish the number of people eligible for appointment, and to the Select Committee's special report, because both are clearly of interest to many hon. Members.

The use of rateable values in the Bill is simply a mechanism to achieve an end—to give the many City businesses that are now incorporated rather than conducted as partnerships or sole proprietorships a voice. That can be misleadingly portrayed as a concept that predates the great Reform Act, and equates money to votes, conjuring up the picture of individuals voting strength being dependent on the size of the property that they occupy.

I first invite hon. Members to recall the fact that when, in 1835, the Municipal Corporations Act reformed the local government franchise in the wake of the changes to the parliamentary franchise, the electoral qualification that was put in place comprehended the £10 ratepayer vote. For businesses in the City, the link between rateable value and voting entitlement has endured because of the reasons set out by Lord Callaghan, when he was Home Secretary, during the debate on the Representation of the People Bill in November 1968. Those reasons were recorded on Second Reading of this Bill, so I shall not repeat them.

In relation to the link, clause 3 makes it clear that the ability to appoint any voter applies to incorporated or unincorporated bodies and not to individuals. Moreover, the Bill is explicit in providing that no individual will be able to have more than one vote in any ward election. Thus, the notion that the Bill provides for an individual's voting strength to be proportional to the size of the property that he occupies is quite mistaken.

In addition, in making appointments, newly eligible businesses, which have a multiple entitlement to appoint individuals, will be required to have regard to the composition of their work force. That is in clause 4. Those whom businesses appoint will need to have a strong association with the City—at the very least they must have been working there, for the past year, for the business that appoints them. If retired—

Order. I am always reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he has already commented that we are debating a carry-over motion and not the content of the Bill. Perhaps he might bear that in mind.

I am most grateful for your rebuke, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was seeking to head off the charge that I was making no reference whatever to what the Bill was about.

I was the Chairman of the Select Committee on Procedure in the late 1980s, which originally recommended a carry-over procedure for private Bills—a fact to which my right hon. Friend was kind enough to refer. It is important for the House to take account of the fact that a carry-over motion is designed specifically to ensure that the expense and the work on such a Bill that have already taken place, with considerable effort from the promoters—whether the City of London or others—are not lost.

The motion is not designed to defeat a Bill because someone objects to its contents; it is intended to ensure that the Bill can be fully considered at a later stage. After the amount of work that has gone into this Bill and its amendments, it would seem extremely strange if the House did not to agree to its being carried over so that it could proceed in the normal manner.

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. It was more helpful than he could have imagined, because it gave me the opportunity to examine how I could adjust my speech in the light of your observations, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This may give the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) a little more time. Will you clarify whether your ruling means that we are not allowed to refer to the quality of the Bill in the debate on the motion? For most of us, the deciding factor will be whether the Bill deserves to be carried over.

The hon. Gentleman can use his ingenuity. I always try to be flexible when I am in the Chair. My point was about dwelling on such matters. I am sure that there is a way of saying that the Bill should not be carried over, but it is not for me to put words into the hon. Gentleman's mouth.

There are several other topics to which I might have alluded, had you not so sagely and sagaciously intervened in my speech, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I want to make it clear to those who sat on the Special Select Committee which examined the Bill that some of my observations would have related to their report, and that I mean no discourtesy to them by not dwelling on those matters at this juncture.

I am mindful of your observations, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when I point out that the Bill has already been subject to extensive scrutiny in Select Committee and on consideration, and to a full debate on Second Reading. The City is atypical, which is reflected in the nature of the proposals. In judging the merits, as the House will have the opportunity to do—provided tonight's motion is agreed—it will be worth recalling that criticism can be made of most, if not all, electoral systems. That has been demonstrated during this Session.

If the Bill is carried over and eventually becomes law, one of the provisions—in one of the amendments introduced by the Select Committee—would enable the House to continue to consider, during the years ahead, matters arising in the City of London that are connected to its franchise, so that we can monitor what happens and ensure that the reforms are effective.

I am as grateful to my hon. Friend as I was to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Sir P. Emery), and, indeed, to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend is correct—he was a most distinguished Chairman of the Special Select Committee. The measure would provide the future opportunity that he describes.

Other electoral systems are subject to criticism, as has been demonstrated in our debates, during this and the previous Session, on proportional representation and the party list system. We shall doubtless hold further debates—albeit in other contexts—on the merits or demerits of alternative mechanisms intended to secure democratic accountability, whether by election or appointment. I simply express the hope that, in taking forward to the new Session the debate on the Bill, the yardstick against which its proposals are judged takes adequate account of the imperfections of the landscape.

7.26 pm

I ask the leave of the House to introduce my speech by noting that, two weeks ago, I came to a debate after attending the funeral of my constituent, who was the driver of the crashed Great Western train and that, today, several of my colleagues and I have come from the funeral of PC Kalwant Sidhu, who, only a fortnight ago, died while serving our community. He showed a fine example of duty in the Metropolitan police service and in the Sikh community. I am sure that the whole House would want to send our condolences to his family today.

We have a heavy week ahead of us, with a schedule containing important measures and debates—possibly with some late night sittings—so tonight is not a time to delay the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members should not be too encouraged. We want to move swiftly to a vote: either to destroy the Bill tonight, as it deserves, so that it is not carried over; or, at least, to move to the next stage in a war of attrition against the backwoodsmen of the City corporation—perhaps we should just call it the lodge of lodges. It is not the last bastion of privilege and freemasonry in this country, but it might be the biggest.

Why should the Bill be allowed to proceed? Why should the House waste invaluable parliamentary time on this tawdry retrograde step? Why should we, as the mother of Parliaments—the fount of democracy, as we call ourselves—waste our time protecting privilege and rejecting the democratic principle through this Bill?

The hon. Gentleman might find part of the answer to those questions if he took the trouble to read the book written by the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, his hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Vaz). The book is entitled "Cities for the Future" and has a preface by the Prime Minister. It contains much interesting material on the importance of London and the City of London and their contribution to the British and the world economy.

I am grateful for that intervention; it helps us to demystify the measure. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, there has been a conflation between the City and the City corporation. As we know, the City is an engine of our economy. There are some criticisms to be made of it, but we shall come to those when we debate the economy. However, the City corporation should not be confused with the City itself. The corporation is a group of hangers-on, who create what is known as the best dining club in the City. They bear no relationship to the creation of wealth by the City.

I too have received the book mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. He will have noticed that the constant theme throughout the book is democratic renewal and the right of residents to decide their future. That is what the Bill fails to do.

The precise point of the Bill is to strengthen the connection between the City corporation and business interests in the City, so that the corporation has a more accurate voice on behalf of what goes on in the City.

The tragedy is that the Bill does not do that. It simply extends the right to buy votes. Instead of basing those votes on the workers who work in the City and create the wealth, strengthened by the resident voters in the City, the City corporation has rejected the extension of that right to the people who actually work to create the wealth so that they can have some influence on their workplace—the environment in which they work. We moved an amendment to that effect and discussed it at length—even ad nauseam. The City corporation has refused to budge, but perhaps we can return to that matter later.

Tonight we are debating whether the Bill deserves to be carried over to take up more parliamentary time. Surely there are many more just causes than the protection of a rotten borough on which the House can spend its time. In the current Session, we have been told that there has been insufficient time to ban fox hunting or to have a thorough debate on pensions, policing in London, poverty, age discrimination and other forms of discrimination. We have had inadequate time for those matters because we have spent several nights debating the Bill. In addition, a raft of private Member's Bills has been logjammed for lack of parliamentary time—yet we manage to fix some parliamentary time for the City corporation whenever it asks. Given the competing demands for parliamentary time, it is important that the Bill should not be carried over to take up time in the next Session—it should not see the light of day again.

If we are to spend time on reforming the City corporation, let a proper reform Bill be introduced—one that is based on the democratic principle of universal suffrage: one person, one vote, not one business, as many votes as it can purchase.

On the same principle, does the hon. Gentleman intend to vote against the Government's proposals on reforming the other House because that would not recognise the democratic principle either?

Order. I spoke earlier about allowing some leeway, but the hon. Gentleman is pushing the boat out a bit too far.

There is a valid argument to be made about ensuring that we have either a democratically elected second Chamber or none at all, but I shall observe Mr. Deputy Speaker's instructions and move on to discuss the tests against which the House can judge whether the Bill should be carried over.

I delayed intervening because I wanted to hear the hon. Gentleman's arguments about the shortage of parliamentary time. I do not know whether he was in the House last night, but he should speak to the business managers, because by this time last night, having discussed the important question of whether Acts should be printed on vellum, the House had suspended. Perhaps the business managers could in future be rather more careful about the allocation of time.

I was in the House last night attending various meetings, but I followed the day's debate throughout. I shall meet the Government Whips and suggest that, in future, I be allowed to assist in planning the House's timetable. I shall keep the hon. Gentleman informed of progress.

The key question is what are the tests against which we can judge whether the Bill should be carried over. For many of us, the test is whether it is line with the Government's manifesto on which they were elected—will the Bill fulfil a manifesto pledge? The Labour Government are committed to implementing 177 manifesto commitments within the lifetime of this Parliament. I do not want to go over the sordid tale of how we arrived at the current position, whereby the Government support the Bill, save to say that the exercise of power and influence by the City of London corporation from 1992 has been an object lesson in the naked abuse of privilege. It is not often that we can pull back the veil and reveal the face of the British establishment in all its ugly, threatening grotesqueness, but the privilege exercised by the City corporation is an example of what power can do.

Traditionally, the Labour party had a principled commitment to abhor votes based on money and privilege and to promote universal suffrage; hence, Labour was from its earliest days committed to the abolition of the City corporation as constituted, whereby votes are bought based on wealth and there are insider dealings in connections to get a seat on the common council—it is not what you know, but who you know and who can be bought. Labour's argument was that it should be replaced with a democratic institution. However, from 1992 onwards, the City corporation realised that the prospect of a Labour Government put privilege at risk, so every resource and sinew of connection and influence were mobilised by the corporation elite to bring Labour to heel. The corporation established a public relations team, set aside resources and started a long-term lobbying strategy. The tragedy is that new Labour was all too ready to become an adornment of the corporation. All it took was a few phone calls and a couple of dinner parties and, in the 1997 manifesto, the Labour party sought, not abolition or democratic reform, but only reform.

Does the Bill constitute reform and should it be carried over? Does it contain any element of democratic reform? It does not bring about universal suffrage based on one person, one vote, but maintains business votes based on ownership. It goes further—it is regressive, introducing a system whereby the buying of votes by more business is facilitated. Under the proposed system, the extension of votes is up for sale, depending on how much land in the City can be bought. The argument in July—

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the House is debating a carry-over motion. He can apply his arguments in the next Session.

That is, if the Bill gets to the next Session: I believe that the arguments we advance tonight will ensure that the Bill goes no further. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am sure that you will permit me to elaborate on why the Bill does not deserve to he carried over.

In July, the then Minister for London and Construction, my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), argued that the Bill was the first stage of a sequence—a "drive for reform". We were told that if we voted against the Bill at any stage, that drive for reform would be stifled. That is laughable—how can a Labour Minister believe that the extension of the right to buy votes can be part of a drive for democratic reform? Such a Bill does not even deserve publication, let alone carry-over. It is embarrassing to see such a fawning bending of a Labour Minister's knee to privilege. I do not want to give Millbank any ideas, but we should be grateful for the mercy that the same system has not been introduced for the selection of the Labour candidate for London's mayor.

Turning to the concessions set out in the Bill, one has to ask whether they justify its being carried over. Like drawing teeth from a rotting carcase, those supposed concessions have been wrung out of the City corporation during the Bill's passage. The first is that voters should have a "connection" with the City. We are asked to be grateful for the fact that the person who casts a vote should have a vague connection to the place in which his or her vote will determine the services, environment and future of the residents. What a revolutionary concession—we have missed an opportunity for an Eisenstein film following on from "The Battleship Potemkin".

The second concession is the requirement that the persons appointed as voters must reflect the composition of the work force. On that is based the argument in favour of supporting the carry-over, as it is a breakthrough that the City corporation appears to have accepted some elements of equal opportunities within the Bill. There is a view that, even if the corporation would never have accepted universal suffrage, we might have been able to make an amendment to the Bill that allowed the business vote to be based on a ballot of the work force of the businesses, thereby enfranchising the workers who spend their days in the City creating the wealth that the City corporation throws about so blatantly. However, such an amendment was rejected and there are to be no votes for workers, so there is no rational basis for carrying over the Bill in the interests of workers.

Once again, I remind the hon. Gentleman to be careful to stay in order. We are debating the carry-over motion, not details of the Bill.

With the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is difficult not to explore the details of the justification for the carry-over. However, I assure you that, as usual, I will take your advice.

It is claimed that, under the proposal, workers will be somehow enfranchised not because they will be granted a vote, but because nominations by business will reflect the work force. That is no reason for the workers to beat on the doors of the Chamber, urging for the Bill to be carried over. How can there be a carry-over when there is no justification for that course of action?

Has the hon. Gentleman noticed that the arrangements in this Bill are similar to those in the so-called functional constituencies in Hong Kong, which were roundly condemned by the British Government and many others as being totally undemocratic? They were devised by the Chinese Government as a way of avoiding universal franchise in Hong Kong. I wonder why such measures are considered suitable for London.

Order. The situation in Hong Kong is not relevant to this carry-over motion.

I remind hon. Members that it is dangerous to criticise the Chinese Government in this society. I move on.

A third concession is that the Bill's promoters will be required to report to the Secretary of State on the workings of the provisions of the legislation within five years. The hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Jackson), who chaired the Opposed Private Bill Committee that considered the Bill—he has now left the Chamber—believed that this was a critical concession that would allow the House to return later to debate the reform of the City corporation. That is an important point upon which to base a vote in favour of the carry-over motion this evening.

We should note, however, that the Bill does not allow the House to launch a full-scale review of the City corporation and does not provide an opportunity to plan further democratic reform as the Chairman and members of the Opposed Private Bill Committee honestly envisaged. The proposed report would be narrow and undefined: it would be a review of the workings not of the City corporation, but of the Bill. For example, the Bill does not refer to enfranchising workers in the City, to increasing weighting for residents' votes or offering residents further protection. On that basis, the support that the Committee Chairman gave to the City corporation's undertaking in this clause is not a reason for backing the carry-over motion.

Outside that provision, is there potential for further democratic reform? There is no such potential in the Bill, so the reporting mechanism in the legislation does not justify its carry over as part of a future democratic reform process. In fact, if carried over, the Bill will stifle any drive for reform. Apart from the Bill, the argument for carry-over is based on the undertakings of a supposed wider package of reforming measures—which I believe are derisory sops and an insult to the House.

The measures include changes in boundaries, protection of the proportion of residential members elected, electors and members, and internal reviews that are not subject to supervision by the local government boundary commission, which oversees every other local authority. There is an undertaking that nominations from a qualifying body will be signed by an authorised and identified officer and that ward lists to identify qualifying bodies will be published. Those undertakings, which were given by the promoters and are not in the Bill, are designed to protect the status quo: they do not improve the position of residents or the democratic process of the City corporation. In some cases, they introduce basic standards of electoral administration that were put in place in the rest of the country a century ago. Should we be grateful for those undertakings and march through the Lobby tonight to vote to carry the Bill forward?

The key point is that those undertakings do not depend upon the passage of the Bill. If those improvements should be made—they do not require legislation, as the promoters suggest—I urge the City corporation to get on with them. The reforms can be introduced even if the Bill is not carried over.

Paragraph 4 of the statement from the Bill's promoters says that the legislation's provisions will be extended to include a wider business interest. I understand the argument—which has been made by Opposition Members—that we should modernise business interests within the City corporation. If the City corporation wishes to establish a stakeholder council comprising residents, businesses and employees—the workers who create the wealth—so be it. Let it introduce such a Bill. I can appreciate at least that that would be a debatable advance on the business board dominance of the City corporation.

This Bill does not do that—nor is that its intention. We have been advised that the City corporation does not intend to introduce amendments at any carry-over phase that would enable us to establish a stakeholder structure. The Bill's objective is to embed the power of business and wealth in this crevice of our political system into the next millennium. Worse still, it extends the right to buy votes. This is the last rotten borough. It should have been dealt with by past Labour Governments, but they lost their nerve—as I regret this Government are doing.

Although the Government have stated that the vote on the Bill is unwhipped, we know that they have indicated forcefully through their Whips that they wish the Bill to proceed. The Government send Ministers to the House to defend that bastion of privilege. In the week that the Government have moved a step closer to abolishing the privilege of the unelected House of Lords, they seek to bolster and secure the unelected power of the City corporation. Worse still—this is a strong argument for hon. Members who represent London constituencies—under the Greater London Authority Bill, which we are to discuss on Thursday, the Government will give the unelected business-appointed free masonry of the City corporation the right to be treated as the equivalent of any London borough in determining general policies for London with the newly elected mayor and the strategic authority for London. It means that the grotesquely undemocratic, deformed City corporation will have a say in the policies of my city and my constituency in areas such as transport, planning, the environment, policing and so on.

Worse still, the City corporation refuses to pay its way by funding the strategic policies needed to provide a new start for London. It refuses to open its books to public scrutiny. Another argument for not carrying over the Bill is the City corporation's continuing refusal to inform us of the billions of pounds in its City cash account or to amend the Bill to allow public scrutiny of that account. There is no point carrying over the Bill and introducing this concoction of supposed democratic reforms unless we can see the cash.

It is argued that we have opposed the Bill and called for democratic reform of the City corporation and its finances because we are seeking to blackmail the corporation into spending more money in London. I suppose we are doing that: we are trying to open the books of the City corporation and to ensure that they are accountable to the City of London overall. Without democratic reform of the City corporation, the City will never pull its weight in supporting our capital. It will remain the self-interested, isolated dining club that it has been for the past century.

Therefore, it falls to those of us who are democrats to throw out this Bill tonight by refusing the carry-over and demanding a real reform Bill. The right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) asked me to meet City corporation representatives, and I am keen to do so. I will be delighted to lead a delegation from the House to assist in drafting a new reform Bill. Someone in my party stated recently that our battle is with the forces of conservatism. We are up against those forces in this Bill. These are not insecure teachers, council workers, air traffic controllers or London Underground staff, but the real forces of conservatism. Yet we are conspiring to create a smokescreen of reform that allows those forces of conservatism to continue their entrenched affront to democracy into another millennium. The Bill is trivial, but significant; meaningless, yet immensely symbolic. In two weeks, we shall have major debates on welfare reform, asylum issues, Lords reform and the new government of London. This Bill pales into trivia when compared to them. The sight of a reforming Labour Government supporting the last bastion of political corruption and privilege in the local government system demeans us all. Supporting the carry-over of this Bill means that we would deny the right to vote to 250,000 workers who create the wealth of the City.

I shall vote against the motion tonight, but I give a warning. If it is accepted and the Bill returns in the next Session, I, along with many colleagues, will continue to bombard it with amendments in a war of attrition to ensure that some democratic advance is achieved during that process. Someone once said, "Set our people free". We shall eventually set the City free from this type of political corruption.

7.50 pm

I endorse the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) and I oppose the carry-over of the Bill to the next Session. As he said, the Government have told us that there is no time for other important measures and I am sure that the same will be said in the next Session. For example, fox hunting has not been tackled because Parliament has not had sufficient time to do so.

Why should this Bill be carried over? We all know that, if public Bills are not enacted before the end of a Session, they fall. Indeed, Government Whips are in a muck sweat about the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill, the Immigration and Asylum Bill and the House of Lords Bill. They are desperate—to the extent that they may have to play ping-pong with the other place—to get them through all their stages before the end of the Session. Why should this private Bill receive special privilege?

There is a procedural explanation. The Government have the right, on any of their public Bills, to introduce a guillotine and to force a Bill through the House in whatever time scale they wish. [Interruption.] That procedure is not available for a private Bill raised by a private corporation. Therefore, when a corporation has gone to the expense and everything else to carry it through, it should be allowed the opportunity of ensuring that the Bill can be properly considered—and, if necessary, defeated—on Third Reading. A private Bill should be able at least to reach that stage.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) reminds me that the Conservatives introduced the guillotine procedure and used it many times in government. I do not understand why a private Bill should be treated differently from a public Bill. The existence of the guillotine procedure does not mean that private Bills should receive special treatment.

I wanted to convey to my hon. Friend the fact that, in the time that I have been a Member, there were no carry-over motions for many years until the Tory Government backed private measures to widen access to the ports around the coasts of Britain, so that they could bring in more imported coal and shut the pits. Hey presto, in the past 18 years, along came a Tory Government who said that they wanted to carry through such measures for the ports and they introduced a carry-over motion to enable them to do so. That is what is happening today. The example was set by the previous Government, and this Government have picked up the same cudgel.

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's explanation.

If the rules mean that there is no carry-over for public Bills, there should not be special treatment for private Bills. The Bills of Back Benchers do not receive special treatment—the guillotine cannot be applied to them—so the argument of the right hon. Member for East Devon (Sir P. Emery) falls flat.

Cost is another reason against the carry-over. The estimates in a House of Commons Commission report show—the figures do not take account of the estimated expenditure on Portcullis House—that the costs of running this House will amount to £213 million next year. I have done a calculation based on the 157 sitting days in the Session, and worked out that the cost is about £1.36 million a sitting day. This debate is taking up half a sitting day, so that represents a cost of about £680,000 if we take into account all the costs associated with the running of the House. This Bill has already been debated a couple of times, which means that it has received a couple of millions pounds' worth of parliamentary time. I do not see why it should receive another £1 million worth of time in the next Session.

The carry-over is all about special pleading and special treatment for the City of London. No City Bill has been rejected by Parliament for hundreds of year or since the mists of time. We should therefore assume that the City can get away with virtually anything, however antiquated, undemocratic and unreasonable that may be. The Bill is not worthy of a carry-over.

This Labour Government are proud of their modernisation agenda. This Bill, even as amended in Committee, cannot possibly be regarded as modernising. Even the Earl of Burford would be happy with it. The City remains a rarefied mixture of feudalism and business privilege.

Other business centres are developing and some will be more powerful than the City in the future. One example is docklands in London. Businesses there are potentially much more powerful than the residents who live in the area. Are those residents' democratic rights to be pushed aside following the precedent that the City corporation continues to set, which is further enshrined in the Bill?

The Bill is deeply flawed in other ways. The statement of the Bill's promoters says that
"the boundaries of residential wards…will be reviewed to protect their proportion on the Court of Common Council".
That provision does not appear in the Bill itself. However, residents can easily be outvoted by businesses under the system that is proposed. It is a convoluted voting scale. I shall not go into all the details in the promoters' statement, but, if one buys a shed in the City of London with a rateable value of £200 or more, one can have a vote.

The promoters' statement adds that the number of persons who may be appointed by a qualifying body to vote increases with rateable value. The system is convoluted and complicated. The need to have property rights to be able to vote does not constitute one person, one vote. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington pointed out, it is not a system of universal suffrage. There will be 100 common councillors and 25 aldermen on the Court of Common Council.

Order. The hon. Gentleman heard me tell the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) that we are discussing the carry-over motion. The details of the Bill have nothing to do with tonight's proceedings.

I appreciate that point and take it on board, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was merely making the point that the Bill is not worthy of the carry-over and the extra expenditure that I mentioned earlier.

I shall not dwell on the point about the membership of the Court of Common Council, only to say that the Greater London Authority will have only 25 members for the whole of the rest of London. Why does the City corporation have to be so out of proportion? Again, it is an example of the special treatment that it is receiving and of which the carry-over motion is a part.

The promoters' statement also refers to the 250,000 commuters who come to the City every day. They suggest that that is a reason for the corporation to receive special treatment. It implied that they would have a say in the City corporation's new arrangements. If they are a factor in the special arrangements, why are not they all put on a register and given individual votes? Why are just the property-owning bosses of those commuters to have the vote? I thought that we had long ago realised that bosses do not automatically speak for their employees. People have a vote where they live, not where they travel to. Allowing the latter is a recipe for chaos.

The hon. Members for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) and for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) have been rich in criticism of the City, but if the Bill falls, the status quo prevails. In the circumstances, does the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead expect the Government to introduce a Government Bill, in Government time, to reform the City? Does he want the status quo to prevail?

I shall describe the change that I want later in my speech. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman because once the change occurred, the City of London would be protected from further reform for the indefinite future, and be in a stronger position to continue that mix of feudalism and business privilege to which I referred. It would be better if the Bill failed, and that is why I am arguing that it should not be carried over.

The vast majority of people in the financial and business community in the City of London are indifferent to the running of corporation affairs. They are interested in national economics and politics—

Order. It is a pity that the Deputy Speaker must keep intervening. Once again, the hon. Member is straying from the business before us.

In deference to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will not pursue the point further.

The key point is the special pleading and the privilege that the City is to enjoy as a result of the motion. I do not think that the House should grant that. Another reason is that we would end up with a problem of two mayors of London. That would be an anomaly, and could make London look daft. Two mayors could easily hinder each other.

I would rather that the Bill failed than be carried over eventually to strengthen the City. The City corporation covers too small an area to be an authority in its own right; everyone really knows that it should be integrated in the Greater London Authority. It is a constitutional anomaly that, for the main part, has outlived its usefulness.

I do not say that the corporation does not do some good work in London, as I mentioned in debates on earlier stages of the Bill. The one proviso in my argument is its management of open land.

I am intrigued; I wonder what Prince Charles thinks about the carry-over motion? He comments on almost everything, but I have not heard anything on this matter. I assume that he is in favour of it.

I cannot comment on that. Prince Charles is probably too busy fox hunting to have a view on the Bill.

My hon. Friend says that he is with us, so we will forgive him on this point.

The corporation does good work in its management of open land, such as Epping forest, but the capital deserves an independent London-wide environmental green land trust, which does not have to be the corporation's responsibility. The corporation has such a role by accident of history—it bought much of its land with its vast funds. Despite the fact that many areas of London are heavily urbanised and road polluted, they do not receive any support from the corporation for an ameliorating green land policy. I could give examples of that in my constituency, where the M11 is being built—

Order. I plead with the hon. Member. The House should not be hearing about the corporation itself. We are debating just the carry-over motion.

I apologise; it is very difficult sometimes not to stray.

I return to the point that the City wants special treatment from the House. It wants all that money to be spent on it, but will not dip into its own pocket for the rest of London. That is at the heart of what I am trying to say.

Is my hon. Friend trying to tell me that this is a carry-over motion, and a Bill for the few and not the many?

That is extremely well put, but I had better not go further down that road.

City chiefs know that the corporation could and should do much more about green and open space in London, and that it does not run a comprehensive environmental green and open space policy for the capital, which is what is needed. Many would say that such a role is for the new mayor of London. Why, then, is the City even involved? The corporation hinders such a policy because it holds the main purse strings—

Order. The hon. Member is straying from the subject again, but he promised me that he would try not to do so.

I shall not stray again. In deference to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have cut vast swathes of my prepared speech.

Even London businesses contribute £1.2 billion a year to the rest of the country through national non-domestic rates. The City speaks up for London businesses—or claims to do so—yet it is impotent in preventing all that money flowing out of London and in protecting business interests in London. It certainly does not put up its own money for that. Therefore, given the City's current activities, it does not deserve a special carry-over motion.

At an earlier stage in the Bill's progress, it was backed by the then Minister for London and Construction, my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning. Even today, I suspect that Ministers will troop through the Aye Lobby, as they did previously—wasting their time on a Bill that is not worthy.

What did my hon. Friend the Minister get from the City for committing the support of all those Ministers? The changes to the Bill do not add up to a moment's modernisation. Hereditary peers are about as modern as the corporation of London will be following the passage of this Bill. Ministers have been selling London short by the Bill.

My hon. Friend the Minister originally sought to be a candidate for the mayor of London. He is now a campaign manager for one of the candidates, but when it came to getting a deal for London and putting the squeeze on the City, for all the Government backing, he slunk away, losing the opportunity. His policy on the Bill does not inspire hope in Londoners that those in the capital's top jobs—the mayor and the Minister responsible for London—will fight hard enough on their behalf if it does not suit them or if they prefer a cosy deal with business men and dignitaries in the corporation of London. By supporting the Bill, the Government and the Minister responsible for London are sending an appalling message. We should be putting the squeeze on the City, so that, with all its vast wealth, it does a lot more for the environment and the businesses of London, as it should. I—

8.10 pm

I shall speak briefly in support of the motion.

I served on the Opposed Private Bills Committee, which considered a fair amount of evidence. The Labour party had obviously changed its position on the City of London, but the incoming Government were nevertheless subject to an expectation that there would be reforms in the City, as the franchise was being severely criticised from all directions, and it was felt that improvement was needed.

In evidence, Mr. Tom Simmons, the clerk of the City of London, said that the City initially hoped and expected that the Government might encompass reform proposals within a Government Bill. Had that happened, there would have been no need for the City to promote a private Bill. However, the Government—no doubt because of their other priorities and because of all the difficulties with the Greater London Authority—did not wish to become involved in promoting a change to the franchise in the City. Despite that, there was still an expectation of reform and modernisation—that over-used word—so the City felt that it had to come up with proposals speedily to tackle the problem of the franchise to enable it to survive as an independent institution promoting what we probably all agree is a very important asset for the nation, and creating very many jobs in many other parts of London.

I support the carry-over motion precisely because the City was obliged to introduce a private Bill. The City is in a difficult position. Residents of the City and many businesses have been consulted on the new system. Considerable expense has been incurred in that consultation and in the promotion of the Bill. Because the City cannot impose a guillotine, it does not seem unreasonable that the Bill should be carried over.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain to me how he can possibly justify the carry-over of a Bill which would normally fall—as this Bill undoubtedly should—and which, in clause 3(1)(c), contains a provision that allows a person to appoint someone else to vote. That is not democratic, no matter how one looks at it.

Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not in the Chamber when I made it clear that we are debating the carry-over motion, not the details of the Bill. Mr. Robert Syms.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Surely the justification for carry-over is normally to be found in the Bill itself, enabling one to question its anomalies and undemocratic nature and to ask right hon. or hon. Gentlemen—

Order. All I would say is, "Surely not." The situation is clear: we are debating the carry-over motion. That, rather than the detail of the Bill, is what is on the Order Paper. [Interruption.] If the carry-over motion is passed, all the details and all the argument can be put forward again.

No doubt, if the carry-over motion is passed, the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to debate these weighty issues, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

The Bill is not ideal. I have some concerns about it, but its proposals are an improvement on the current arrangements, and the report back, on which the Committee insisted, will at least keep the matter in the political court so that we may see whether the Bill is working in the way that the City expects it to.

8.14 pm

We are delighted to see the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill) in his place tonight. We are sorry not to see the Minister for Housing and Planning, whose face we have become accustomed to seeing on these occasions, but we understand that he may be busy on the telephone to constituents of Brent, East tonight.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) asks why the Bill should be carried over. The answer is that the City of London is unique, and the City needs the Bill to be carried over. We all hear the views of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, but his description of the City as a rotten borough probably tells the House little about the reality of the City and a great deal about the hon. Gentleman's deeply held convictions about those who create wealth in our city. As he says, he will launch a war of attrition to try to destroy the Bill if it is carried over, and perhaps that tells us all that we need to know about his objections tonight. It is not reform but an ideological agenda.

I shall try to keep my remarks in order this time, Mr. Deputy Speaker—if I go off the track, just tell me again: I promise to be good—but will the hon. Gentleman explain how, if he has reservations about a Bill which he thinks is a bad Bill, he can get up and justify carrying it over? Why should a bad Bill be carried over when it is much easier to get rid of it and start again?

The hon. Gentleman asks me whether I think that the Bill is a bad Bill. It may not be perfect, but I do not believe that it is a bad Bill.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington had much to say against the Bill, but almost nothing he said dealt with the carry-over motion.

The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) lamented the lack of parliamentary time. We echo those sentiments. We are concerned about the way in which the Government are managing the business of the House at the moment. The latest suggestion, which is that they intend to guillotine Thursday's debate of the Greater London Authority Bill, is an outrage: Londoners will note that the Government are doing that even though we shall be debating more than 800 Government amendments added to the Bill since it left the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What have Thursday and the GLA got to do with the carry-over motion? You ruled against me; I am now asking you to rule against the hon. Gentleman.

Order. So far, the hon. Gentleman has been in good order. [Interruption.] Order. Had it been otherwise, I would have said so.

As always, Mr. Deputy Speaker, your words are words of wisdom, and sagaciously considered.

The City of London is indeed unique—unique in its national role, in its size, its population, its local finance, its responsibilities, its work in the arts and its charitable work. The City is unique, too, in having an electoral system that was unaffected when, in 1969, the non-residential vote was abolished for local government elections.

The Home Secretary of the time—now Lord Callaghan—said of retaining the City's non-residential franchise, with its "very small resident population" and its "heavy local government responsibilities", that the City of London constituted a quite "special and exceptional case." The special and exceptional case continues to be a reason for us to recognise that the Bill should be carried over.

For those reasons alone, the Bill, and the work and parliamentary time that went into creating it, should not be wasted: it should be carried over.

The City of London is one of the world's most important international financial centres, contributing 10 per cent. of this country's gross domestic product. The signal that we send tonight in carrying over the Bill is an important signal to the City. For the people who live and work in the City, too, it is important that we carry over the Bill. The Bill may represent at the moment only 6,000 residents, but the City's housing stock, represented largely by the Barbican, Golden Lane and Mansell Street council estates, means that it has one of the highest densities of population in Europe. The Bill matters to those people and to the more than 250,000 people who commute to the City every day. It is, and remains, an exceptional situation.

We need to make progress on the Bill, because the House should demonstrate that it recognises the contribution that the City makes to our national economy and our life. The City's role in culture, environment and charities is vital, not only within the square mile but outside it. That is why we are giving our support to carry this private Bill over. It provides for a special franchise for this special case and permits exceptions to the norm for a municipality that is unique.

Exceptionally, the community of the City of London consists, in large part, of its businesses. That is why, in addition to the usual universal franchise for residents, the vote will be extended to non-residents. If the franchise is not updated, the business interests of the City will be represented by an increasingly anachronistic, unrepresentative body of sole traders and partnerships, and it surely cannot be the wish of the House to perpetuate such a state.

The Opposition are fully committed to strengthening communities. We want to give those who live and work in that exceptional space control of their local government. In the unique case of the City of London, the reform will go a long way to achieving fairer representation.

The Conservative party believes in the role of the City, both in London and in the country. The City works well for London. It will work even better with the Bill, which is why the Bill should be carried over. We should not endanger, even in the smallest way, the continued international pre-eminence of the City by preventing the Bill from being carried over.

I accept that some Labour Members have honourable objections to the Bill. We disagree with them, and feel that in most cases their objections to the carry-over motion are fuelled by a desire not to improve the Bill but to destroy it—not to produce fairer representation and better government, but effectively to leave the status quo in place.

The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead spoke of the money being expended by Parliament in debating the carry-over. The waste of money would surely be not in debating the motion, but in losing the Bill and failing to carry it over.

The City is unique. Its geographical footprint may be tiny, but its real footprint covers many aspects of London life and, in financial terms, the globe. We believe that reform is necessary and we are keen for progress on it, but reform will not come if the Bill fails to be carried over tonight. We urge the House to support the motion.

8.22 pm

I served on the Committee that considered the Bill—an experience that I welcomed, as it was extremely educational. I learned a great deal, after my 20 years in local government. I learned of wards that had no electors. I heard of councillors who were never subjected to elections. I emerged from the Committee enlightened by the experience.

I welcome the opportunity tonight to discuss the carry-over motion. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) and others have advanced numerous serious arguments about the Bill. It was a private Bill. The Committee felt constrained by the terms of such a Bill. We had to search the House to find Committee Clerks and advisers who could remember the last private Bill. I was told that the last one was a hybrid Bill on the channel tunnel, so long was it since we considered a private Bill.

We were told that under the terms of a private Bill, there were strict limitations on what we could propose and the amendments that we could table. Within those constraints and in a quasi-judicial forum, it was difficult to pursue any kind of democratic agenda or procedures to widen the terms of the Bill. Although the representatives of the City had come with good intentions and although they were motivated to move forward, open up the franchise and encourage businesses in the City to take a closer interest in the affairs of the City, even they realised as the debate progressed that they had not gone far enough.

From his experience on the Committee, can the hon. Gentleman tell me why a Government who purport to be a reforming Government could not introduce reform of the City of London in a local government Bill?

I must take care how I respond to that. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. As I understand it, the City of London corporation predates Parliament. Therefore Parliament does not have the power to dictate terms to the City of London. We do not have the legislative power to make such changes.

Is my hon. Friend saying that the City of London has had more carry-over motions than we have had?

The City has been carrying over for more than 1,000 years.

The Committee understood that its powers were strictly limited. The question this evening is whether the debate should continue. It is suggested by the Opposition that if we do not carry over the Bill, we accept the status quo. That is not necessarily so. Clear signals can go from the Chamber that many of us do not accept the status quo.

If we support the carry-over motion, do we not as a Parliament endorse the status quo, with modest amendments? That is the effect of continuing the debate and agreeing the carry-over. We are endorsing those modest reforms, the inadequacies and undemocratic nature of which have been exposed by hon. Members, who have rightly been called to order by you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as we are not discussing the merits of the Bill.

Some of the motion's shortcomings have been exposed. If we vote against it, we can invite Ministers, representatives of the City of London, the corporation and even the odd Back Bencher—possibly my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington—to get round the table for further discussion of the reform of the City.

Perhaps we can invite the City corporation to produce another Bill that truly reforms the City of London. That, I sense, is what many hon. Members, as democrats, want. I am not using that as a term of abuse; I mean that we are democratically elected representatives.

I do not doubt the motives of the City of London. Its representatives want to change and are looking for a way forward. However, the Bill needs closer scrutiny and a broader approach. It must be subject to wider public debate. What we need for the City of London is an institution for the next millennium, not the continuation of an institution that served the last millennium.

My hon. Friend is rich and generous in his words. Is not "modernise" the word that he is missing?

I was about to move on to that. We need to look for progress, and the next word is "modernise". I confess that I am not a moderniser per se, but we need to further our democratic institutions. I fought the election to the House on the future, not the past; the many not the few—all that is still on my pager—and the Bill is about the future, not the past; the many, not the few.

I do not believe that the Bill is consistent with the values and principles of the House of Commons. It is a privilege to be part of this process, to be a Member of the House and to fight for those values and principles in which the people who voted for me believe. The Bill is not consistent with that. It is time for the House, as a democratic institution, to look for a way forward. The City, the Government and the Chamber may have painted themselves into a corner. The Bill, if carried over, will take a tremendous amount of Parliament's time. Amendment on amendment will be tabled. Phrases such as "war of attrition" have been mentioned. People with strong views are strongly opposed to the Bill.

Perhaps we can get ourselves out of that corner this evening. It might not find favour with the Government to suggest it, but I invite my hon. Friends and all hon. Members to get us out of the position in which we find ourselves by voting against the carry-over. Then we could look for genuine reform and a genuine way out of the corner and we could have further discussions and further debate. The City could review the whole issue and bring back a better Bill with a better chance of being passed by the House which would not face the opposition that this Bill will face—no matter whether it is carried over or how many nights we spend on it. I invite Members of the House to vote against a carry-over. Let us try to move the agenda on with a better, more reforming Bill—a Bill for the new millennium.

8.31 pm

No Member of the House thinks that the proposals on the table will change the City of London from an old-fashioned, out-of-date local government structure into a modern, up-to-date one. I have heard no argument from either side of the Chamber that this is the Bill that ought to be before us. We debated that issue on Second Reading.

The Bill is not whipped by the Liberal Democrats and my colleagues voted both for and against Second Reading on 14 July. Tonight we are debating whether the Bill should be carried over to the next Session. I shall make three brief points about that.

The point was well made earlier that Parliament has mechanisms, whether we like them or not, for getting Government business through in a Session. We have often debated whether we should have mechanisms for carrying over public legislation from one Session to another—for example, to deal with a filibuster undertaken by a Member of Parliament against the will of 657 other Members.

That is one debate. Private Bills have the disadvantage that, although we allow them, whether they are given time depends on an obscure system whereby the Chairman of Ways and Means allocates time under Standing Orders providing for a certain amount of private Bill time each year. Forget for a second the issue of what Bill is being debated; my colleagues and I believe it is nonsense that a Bill that might have huge merit could receive only limited time and have to go back to the beginning of the process of getting it through the House at the start of the following year.

I understand the argument. It could be said that if public Bills cannot get through the House in a year, nor should private Bills, but the mechanism for getting public Bills through the process is different from that used for private Bills. Therefore there is no logic to having the same rules for private Bills. We take the view that there should be a facility to carry a private Bill over from one Session to another. That applies irrespective of the Bill; as a result, it is proper that a motion concerning whether we want to carry the Bill over should be tabled.

Does the hon. Gentleman remember, as I do, the Ginns and Gutteridge, Leicester (Crematorium) Bill, which Lord Janner, who is now in the other place, fought tenaciously year in, year out? An enormous amount of parliamentary time was wasted on a bad Bill. Is he suggesting that as much parliamentary time should be wasted on another bad Bill when it could be taken away and made into a good one?

The hon. Gentleman has asked two questions. The first was whether I remembered the Leicester crematorium Bill and the answer is: not very clearly. It is not one of the great recollections of my political career. The second question was whether we have a system that allows us to spend a lot of time next year and the year after on a private Bill which none of us would like, or whether we should cut it off tonight and—the hon. Gentleman cannot argue that it is precluded—allow a similar Bill to be reintroduced in November. As well as being a better Bill, it could be a similar Bill.

The hon. Gentleman's argument is flawed, because saying that there should be no carry-over does not preclude the promoters of the Bill—in this case the City of London corporation—coming to this place with an identical or similar Bill to the Bill before us. We therefore would not stop the promoters promoting similar legislation simply by saying that there will be no carry-over. If we could do that, there would be a different debate.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if we set a precedent by throwing out a bad Bill, we would send a message to the promoters of private Bills that they either take into account the will of the House or they cannot come back with other, similar Bills?

I understand that point. The problem is that we do not have the Standing Orders to do that. If our rules allowed us to, and if we threw out a Bill one Session and it was brought it back the next, to ensure that the promoters got it no further, we could deal with that problem. However, we cannot. Given that the date for the introduction of private Bills is November each year, unless we do something in the remaining days of this Session, or in the first few days of the next Session, all the private Bills that do not get through this Session will be presented to us again.

If what the hon. Gentleman wants could happen, we would not be having this debate. That, however, is not the case. Should we then allow this debate to continue, or should we cut off the Bill now? The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) argued that we should not allow the debate to continue because it is a way of stopping the Bill completely. Let me make my position clear. Hon. Members know my position because we had an around-the-houses on it earlier in the year.

This is not the Bill that should be coming from the City. We should have before us a Bill that gives a proper representative structure to the City. The City has had plenty of time in which to draft such a Bill. The House is sending lots of messages—they are coded from some quarters and less coded from others—that the City must do better. My preference is that, in November, the City should come back with a Bill that would find favour in the House. Once the date for the promotion of private Bills has arrived, I should like to see a new Bill tabled by the City of London corporation.

I made it clear on Second Reading that I hoped that the City would go away and come back with a better Bill. Those of my colleagues who voted for this Bill's Second Reading, as I did, on the basis that the proposal, however flawed, was better than the present system, have had to argue strongly with other colleagues who say that, although the proposal is better, it is indefensible. Collectively, therefore, we have no great enthusiasm for the Bill.

Surely what the hon. Gentleman says proves the point that I seek to make. If we send an unequivocal message from the House tonight that this is a bad Bill, that we do not like it, and that the City of London corporation should come back with a new Bill that takes into account what the House has said, we will have set a precedent. That is all we seek to do.

I understand that. If I were confident that the Government were not, effectively, whipping the Bill, and if my colleagues had been confident from the beginning that there would be a truly free vote, the hon. Gentleman's argument would have found much more favour and the Bill probably would not have proceeded. The Bill proceeded only because, as is evidenced from the Division records, a significant number of Government Members voted for it, not having attended the debate. I understand that—it happens all the time, but it need not and should not happen. Private Bills should not be whipped. The sooner private Bills are treated as truly private Bills, the better we can do our job as legislators.

In 1976, the Eastbourne Harbour Bill was presented by Ian Gow, who later became the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Margaret Thatcher when she was Prime Minister. He lost the Bill because we talked until about a quarter to nine and we allowed the Tories, who had all come out of the woodwork, to think that the vote would be at 10 o'clock. I shut up after about 70 minutes, and we called a Division. They did not have the 40 people necessary, so we beat them.

The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes)should remember that private Bills come back almost exactly the same. There is no question about that—

When there was a change of Government, the Prime Minister decided that she would get the Eastbourne Harbour Bill through for Ian Gow, her Parliamentary Private Secretary, the then hon. Member for Eastbourne. It was brought back, and she packed the House solid all night until 6 o'clock in the morning against the opposition of a few of us. The net result was that it got through, even though it was roughly the same Bill.

I was not in the House in 1976, but I have been here for enough of these debates to know exactly what the hon. Gentleman means. He bears out my point that Governments often deliver private Bills if there is support for them somewhere in the Government. We understand that, but it should not be so, because there is no point in private Bills at all if they are managed in that way.

I shall vote for the carry-over, although some of my hon. Friends will not. We shall see what happens. I have a concern that I shall express, even though some people are worried about my doing so. There will be a variety of private Bills next year, as there are every year, although there are far fewer than there used to be. This private Bill must take its place with all the other private Bills, and no priority should be given to any of them.

I have never understood how it is decided which private Bills are taken and in what order. Interestingly, it would be a democratic reform of our procedures if Parliament, not the Chairman of Ways and Means, decided the order in which it took the private Bills to fill the slots available.

I do not want to pin the hon. Gentleman down, but perhaps he should reflect on the logic of his argument. He is arguing that this is a bad Bill, but he is willing to support its carry-over knowing that it may squeeze out good Bills. He says that Parliament should determine the order in which private Bills are taken, although he argued with my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) that we do not have the power to do that—and he is still willing to vote for the carry-over. Not only is he using confused logic, but he is supporting the City of London (Ward Elections) Bill, which does nothing to improve the democratic processes of the City of London corporation. In fact, it would confirm the corporation in its undemocratic ways for years to come.

I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. We debated that issue on Second Reading. I had to make a judgment as to whether the Bill would leave the City, its government and, above all, its people and residents with a more democratic or less democratic structure. The clear evidence of the consultation process in the City is that the majority of people who have responded prefer the Bill to the status quo. Some people oppose it: I do not pretend that the consultation was perfect. On that basis and not on any other, I believe that it is better to have the Bill, strange improvement though it be, than the status quo.

I do not defend the Bill. I would not have proposed it, and I am not happy about it. However, I shall vote for a system that is clearly less archaic than the present one. My hon. Friends may do otherwise. We shall proceed to vote on whether the Bill should be carried over. If it is carried over, a final warning should be given to the City. If it is not to have the same battle next year as it has had this year, it would be better if it came up with an improved Bill. It is in the corporation's own hands, and if it does not do that, it knows the difficulty it may have in getting this Bill through the House next year.

8.45 pm

I shall be brief, as I made a number of observations during our earlier discussions on the Bill. I have a professional connection, and in that respect I declare an interest as a member of chambers in the Temple who—depending on whether the clerk remembers to register it—has, or does not have, a vote in the elections that we are discussing. Those elections take place in what is very much a pocket ward, and that is something of which I thoroughly disapprove.

I do not want to cause a conflict between you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and your predecessor in the Chair. I do not propose to elaborate on why I consider clause 3(1)(c)so appalling, or to press the Minister in that regard.

Each time I have contributed to the debate, I have tried to explain that when a Bill is bad, it is best to stop that Bill. When a Bill is bad, why carry it over? Will it really be improved? The answer is no. What we will end up with is a Bill that takes up parliamentary time in the following year—a good deal of parliamentary time, because many of us will feel obliged to oppose it line by line, thus slowing the process. If the City really wants to modernise and to enter the 21st century with the rest of us, it has the opportunity to re-word arrangements for the City franchise, so that we can have a democratic City.

I am not against the City of London; quite the contrary. I think that it is a wonderful institution, which has a part to play in our society. But at least let it be democratic: let not the idea of appointment appear. Appointment is not a good thing in a democracy. There should be elections, and democratic elections at that.

I am watching the Minister carefully. He is young and unproven as yet, not tested by the fire of this place. I warn him that a lot of old hands here know that, time and again, the City has missed the golden opportunity to enter the 21st century with the rest of us. The City needs to recast this Bill. If we lose the vote and the Bill is carried over, I shall expect the City to sit down and ask itself three questions. First, it must ask how it can appear democratic. Secondly, it must ask how it can reflect the interests of its real voters, the residents, which are paramount in business terms. I say that openly, as one who, in a very minor way, has a business interest as a barrister in chambers that contain many persons. Thirdly, the City must ask how it can act in a way that will present an example to other cities in this land that are moving steadily towards the single-mayor approach.

It will be necessary to marry two elements. We will have a London mayor, who will be elected, and an assembly or council, and the two will have to work hand in hand. What a contrast; what a disgrace.

This is a bad Bill which should not be carried over. I await the Minister's speech with interest, and ask him to accept that if I intervene—with his permission—my intentions are honourable, friendly and educative. But I can kick.

8.49 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions
(Mr. Keith Hill)

What an introduction to my brief speech!

I am grateful for this opportunity to give the House a short explanation of the Government's support for the carry-over motion, which I know will not be wholeheartedly welcomed by a number of my hon. Friends. Although this is not a Government Bill, it stems from the Government's wish to see reform in the City of London, and, in particular, reform and modernisation of its electoral arrangements, structures and participatory procedures.

I think most of us will accept that some of the City's customs and practices are archaic and obscure. They do not contribute to good, effective and accountable local government in the City. However, the corporation has recognised that, and the Bill is part of its response to the challenge to modernise.

The Government support continued consideration of the Bill under the motion because we welcome the fact that the City is beginning to face up to the need to put its governance on a more modern footing. We believe that the proposals are a step in the right direction.

If the proposals are the first step, could my hon. Friend describe the second step?

My hon. Friend is fully aware that the Bill, as amended, permits a review at the end of five years. Nothing in the Bill precludes further reform. Indeed, it is arguable that its enactment is more likely to expedite such reform.

On that point, what is the reform that the Government would like as part of the review? What is the next step in the democratic process? Is it universal suffrage?

My hon. Friend must not tempt me down the path of detailed comment on a Bill that is, after all, not a Government measure, but I beg him to reflect on the following aspect—

Allow me to answer one of my hon. Friends before going on to another.

I invite my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell)to reflect on the following fact when he considers the future. The current electorate in the City of London stands at 20,000. Under the Bill, the electorate will be 40,000.

Not wholly businesses—if we were to restrict the franchise to the 5,000 residents in the City, that would surely be legislating for the few, not for the many.

The Bill's changes to the electoral system recognise the unique nature of the square mile and the need for an inclusive form of local governance that reflects the needs of all those who have an interest.

Certainly, but I have to say that it is not the Government's Bill and I must not detain the House unduly by responding to my hon. Friends, however fascinating their interventions may be.

On that novel transformation of the principle of the few to that of the many, does that mean that the Government will introduce legislation to give the many businesses nationally the right to vote? That is the logic of my hon. Friend's argument. If we are now for the many, and that means many businesses, will that be the commitment that we give to the CBI this week?

My hon. Friend knows that it is not the Government's intention to legislate for a business vote. However, I ask him again to reflect on an interesting fact: the corporate franchise that the Bill envisages is based on electoral systems that were recently introduced in Melbourne and Sydney, Australia—as we know, a country of some constitutional innovation.

The changes must include the companies and institutions that are established in the City, the workers who are employed by them and the people who live there. The reforms will both widen the franchise and protect the rights of the 5,000 plus resident voters in the City.

The carry-over motion should be supported. We believe that it is a worthwhile measure, as did the Committee that examined the Bill in detail.

I did not want to interrupt my hon. Friend's prepared speech too much, but perhaps he would explain one point. As it is not a Government measure, what on earth are the Government doing supporting it? If the House and the local persons involved are against it, what right have a democratic Government to try to steamroller it through in a private Bill? Government business yes; private Bills no. Perhaps he might take the opportunity to explain himself.

My hon. Friend is an old enough hand in this institution to know that it is normal and appropriate—indeed, it is requisite—for the Government to express their opinion on any issue of governance that passes through the House. All that I am seeking to do is to enlighten the House on the Government's position on the matter.

No; I do not want to give way. Although it is deeply tempting to give way, it would be wrong for me to detain the House much longer on a private Bill.

The Government believe that the Bill should be given a realistic opportunity to become law. As the Committee pointed out in its special report, there is clearly much more that the City could do to improve and modernise the way in which it is governed. The Bill, however, is a significant measure that will steer the corporation firmly in the direction of reform and modernisation.

If the Bill is not allowed to continue its progress through Parliament, the electoral arrangements in the City of London will remain unchanged; the current franchise, which is clearly unsatisfactory, will continue; and the drive for reform from within the corporation will be stifled. I do not think that anyone really wants that.

By allowing the Bill to carry over to the next Session, the House will be giving further encouragement to the City to continue the reform process. I therefore hope that the House will support the motion.

I sense that I am engaged in a duel that will verge upon eternity with the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell), who—today, as on some previous occasions—has said some mildly disobliging things about the City corporation.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As he spends more time in the House, he will become a little more familiar with my prose style.

I neutrally remark that, on earlier occasions, the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington seemed anxious to prolong the debate. I did not on those occasions assist him by countering the arguments he made. On this occasion, I am very properly prevented by the rules of this debate from responding to the things that he said today.

The hon. Gentleman and I are like ships that pass in the night, sometimes seemingly in fog. I very much hope that, perhaps in the next Session, there will be an opportunity for me to animadvert on some of his observations.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen)for the kinder of his remarks on the City corporation. Although I know how the City spends its money on behalf of London as a whole, and even more widely than London, I would be ruled out of order if I were to dwell on that. I assure the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Sawford)that private Bills come very frequently to the House; I have been involved in sponsoring some of them, not least because of the nature of my constituency.

In his remarks, the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead mentioned the M11. In 1978, I promoted a Bill sponsored by the City of London to enable the M11 to pass through certain parts of Epping forest belonging to the City corporation, which the corporation saved in the 19th century. On that occasion, the great Arthur Lewis—the former Member of Parliament for Newham, whom some hon. Members in the Chamber will remember—said, and I am paraphrasing his remarks, "I do not trust the words of Government. I have always found it right to trust the word of the City of London." In that spirit, I hope that the House will give the carry-over a majority.

I was grateful to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes)for his support. He and I were the only inner-London Opposition Members on the Committee considering the Greater London Authority Bill, and we got to know each other's minds even better perhaps than we might have wished. I am glad to have his support on this occasion.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington quoted, "Set the people free", which he attributed to the leader of the Labour party—[HON. MEMBERS: "No".] The hon. Gentleman alluded to the phrase, which has been used before, by the great Winston Churchill—to whom it was given by Geoffrey Crowther—when he was making a speech at a party conference in Blackpool. Sir Winston Churchill left the others who were preparing his speech and went off into his bath, and they could hear him rehearsing it. He gave several versions of the phrase, "Set the people free", emphasising different words each time. Therefore, the phrase is honoured in my party, as well—apparently—as in the Labour party.

I am not suggesting that the Prime Minister practises in his bath, but I hope that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington and I will be allowed to continue our gentle duel in the next Parliament. Setting the people free is the process that will enable us to do so, and I hope that the House will vote for the carry-over motion.

Question put:

The House divided: Ayes 215, Noes 81.

Division No. 281]

[9 pm

AYES

Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)Beith, Rt Hon A J
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)Bercow, John
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)Beresford, Sir Paul
Allan, RichardBetts, Clive
Allen, GrahamBlears, Ms Hazel
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon JamesBoswell, Tim
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms HilaryBottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Atkins, CharlotteBradley, Keith (Withington)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)Brake, Tom
Baker, NormanBrazier, Julian
Bayley, HughBrooke, Rt Hon Peter
Beard, NigelBrown, Russell (Dumfries)
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs MargaretBrowning, Mrs Angela

Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Burden, Richard
Burstow, PaulJones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Butterfill, JohnJones, Helen (Warrington N)
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)Keeble, Ms Sally
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Cann, JamieKey, Robert
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Chidgey, DavidKirkwood, Archy
Clappison, JamesLadyman, Dr Stephen
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Clelland, DavidLait, Mrs Jacqui
Clifton-Brown, GeoffreyLansley, Andrew
Coaker, VernonLetwin, Oliver
Coffey, Ms AnnLevitt, Tom
Collins, TimLewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Colman, TonyLewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Cooper, YvetteLidington, David
Cormack, Sir PatrickLilley, Rt Hon Peter
Cotter, BrianLloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Cox, TomLock, David
Cran, JamesLoughton, Tim
Cranston, RossMcAvoy, Thomas
McGuire, Mrs Anne
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)McIntosh, Miss Anne
Darvill, KeithMcKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)McLoughlin, Patrick
Day, StephenMcNulty, Tony
Denham, JohnMactaggart, Fiona
Dowd, JimMadel, Sir David
Evans, NigelMarsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Fabricant, MichaelMartlew, Eric
Fitzpatrick, JimMates, Michael
Flight, HowardMerron, Gillian
Flint, CarolineMilburn, Rt Hon Alan
Foster, Don (Bath)Miller, Andrew
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)Moffatt, Laura
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)Moonie, Dr Lewis
Foulkes, GeorgeMorris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Fox, Dr LiamMountford, Kali
Fraser, ChristopherMullin, Chris
Gale, RogerO'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Gardiner, BarryOlner, Bill
Gill, ChristopherÖpik, Lembit
Gilroy, Mrs LindaOttaway, Richard
Goggins, PaulPage, Richard
Gorman, Mrs TeresaPaterson, Owen
Gray, JamesPearson, Ian
Green, DamianPickles, Eric
Grieve, DominicPond, Chris
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)Pope, Greg
Hain, PeterPowell, Sir Raymond
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir ArchiePrentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Hanson, DavidPurchase, Ken
Heal, Mrs SylviaQuin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Heald, OliverQuinn, Lawrie
Healey, JohnRapson, Syd
Hill, KeithReid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Hogg, Rt Hon DouglasRendel, David
Howells, Dr KimRoche, Mrs Barbara
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)Roy, Frank
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)Ruane, Chris
Humble, Mrs JoanRuffley, David
Hutton, JohnRyan, Ms Joan
Jack, Rt Hon MichaelSt Aubyn, Nick
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Sanders, Adrian
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)Short, Rt Hon Clare
Jamieson, DavidSimpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Jenkin, BernardSmith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Jenkins, BrianSmith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)Smith, John (Glamorgan)

Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Snape, PeterTwigg, Derek (Halton)
Spellar, JohnTynan, Bill
Spelman, Mrs CarolineVis, Dr Rudi
Squire, Ms RachelWard, Ms Claire
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir JohnWaterson, Nigel
Starkey, Dr PhyllisWatts, David
Stewart, David (Inverness E)Webb, Steve
Stoate, Dr HowardWells, Bowen
Stuart, Ms GiselaWilletts, David
Sutcliffe, GerryWilliams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Swayne, DesmondWills, Michael
Syms, RobertWilshire, David
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)Woodward, Shaun
Taylor, John M (Solihull)Woolas, Phil
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)Wray, James
Timms, StephenYoung, Rt Hon Sir George
Tipping, Paddy
Tredinnick, David

Tellers for the Ayes:

Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)

Mr. Crispin Blunt and

Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)

Mr. Tony Baldry.

NOES

Abbott, Ms DianeLeigh, Edward
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)Lepper, David
Barnes, HarryLewis, Terry (Worsley)
Barron, KevinLinton, Martin
Bell, Martin (Tatton)Livsey, Richard
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)Llwyd, Elfyn
Bermingham, GeraldMcDonnell, John
Berry, RogerMcWalter, Tony
Best, HaroldMarshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Blackman, LizMarshall-Andrews, Robert
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)Naysmith, Dr Doug
Canavan, DennisO'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Cawsey, IanPickthall, Colin
Chaytor, DavidPike, Peter L
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Connarty, MichaelRoss, Ernie (Dundee W)
Corbyn, JeremyRussell, Bob (Colchester)
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)Sawford, Phil
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Cummings, JohnSkinner, Dennis
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs ClaireSmith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Dalyell, Tam
Dawson, HiltonSteinberg, Gerry
Dismore, AndrewStevenson, George
Dobbin, JimStewart, Ian (Eccles)
Donohoe, Brian HStinchcombe, Paul
Etherington, BillStoate, Dr Howard
Fearn, RonnieStringer, Graham
Flynn, PaulStunell, Andrew
Fyfe, MariaTaylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
George, Andrew (St Ives)Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Gibson, Dr IanThompson, William
Golding, Mrs LlinTurner, Neil (Wigan)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)Wareing, Robert N
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)Whitehead, Dr Alan
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Hinchliffe, David
Iddon, Dr BrianWise, Audrey
Illsley, EricWright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)

Tellers for the Noes:

Lawrence, Ms Jackie

Mr. Kelvin Hopkins and

Laxton, Bob

Mr. Harry Cohen.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Promoters of the City of London (Ward Elections) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid;
That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House;
That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill presented in the House in the present Session;
That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) and shall be committed to the Chairman of Ways and Means;
That the Chairman of Ways and Means shall make such Amendments thereto as have been made by the committee in the present Session, and shall report the Bill as amended to the House forthwith, and the Bill, so amended, shall be ordered to be considered;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session;
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.

Beer Duty

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Kevin Hughes.]

9.13 pm

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this issue. I am introducing the debate because of the significance of the Hook Norton brewery in my constituency. This year the brewery is celebrating 150 years of brewing beer, and it still uses the buildings that it used in the last century. Much of the original brewing equipment is still used, it is still producing first-class beer, and earlier this year, Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal opened a new business centre.

Hook Norton brewery employs 38 people, whose families have worked with it for many years, and owns 36 pubs, 12 of which are in my constituency. The names of Hook Norton's beers evoke much that is appreciated in rural England—Haymaker beer, for midsummer, Twelve Days Beer, for Christmas, and Old Hooky for all the year round. Hooky beer is renowned throughout the country.

In January the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury said in a written answer:
"Member states are free to set excise duty rates at the level they feel are appropriate to their own circumstances".—[Official Report, 26 January 1999; Vol. 324, c. 220.]
How can excessively high beer tax be in the interest of UK consumers, UK jobs or our countryside?

Duty rates on beer in Britain are considerably higher—I stress that—than those in several of our fellow European states. In this country, duty on beer of 4 per cent. strength is £43.28 a hectolitre, whereas, in France, duty on beer of equivalent strength is only £8.44 per hectolitre—a staggering difference of £35. Duty is even less in Germany, and, in Spain, is only £6.36. The Government are eager to be seen as the consumer's friend, yet they are overseeing a blatant rip-off.

Pubs are obliged to have glasses that mark distinctly a full pint. Perhaps there should be a second marking on the glass, to show how much of the cost of a pint goes to the Treasury in tax—a tax level. When the single market was introduced in the European Union, a target rate of tax was set of about 8p on the price of a pint, with the aim of harmonising beer duty rates in the EU. All those EU countries whose rates were significantly above that figure have reduced their duty—with the exception of the UK, which has increased its duty rate by 13 per cent. That is wrong. Such a difference is absurd, and—for reasons that I shall give—can have only a detrimental effect on the British economy.

The high rate of duty on beer especially hurts the rural economy and is yet another Government attack on the countryside. It hurts not only the farmers, who grow the raw materials for beer, but small country pubs, which offer a sound source of village employment and are also centres of the local community.

That staggering variation in beer prices provides shoppers with a considerable incentive to purchase beer from the continent, rather than from pubs and brewers in Britain. Frenzied booze-cruise trips are especially damaging to the rural economy. Surveys show that 43 per cent. of pub visits involve journeys of less than one mile, thus country pubs, with small catchment areas, suffer the most from beer bootlegging. The abolition of import allowances, as part of the single market, acts as another incentive to smugglers to bring in bootleg beer from abroad and resell it illegally in this country. It is clear that that illegal trade jeopardises the jobs of decent, hard-working people in the UK. By beer bootlegging, I mean simply taking Transit vans across to France and elsewhere in Europe to bring beer back—not for people's own consumption, but to sell it at a profit. Those bootleggers are almost running a business.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to recognise the scale of the problem, when he announced in the July 1997 Budget—the first after the general election—that beer duty required
"careful consideration this year, not least because of the impact of fraud, smuggling and cross-border shopping."—[Official Report, 2 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 311.]
Those are precisely the issues that cause such concern to me, my constituents and many people in this country. However, as the House will recall, the Chancellor produced only a halt to increasing beer duty. The matter now needs some further careful consideration; a reduction in beer duty is clearly required to bring it in line with the duty charged in other EU member states.

That is especially true because of the Government's reaction to bootlegging. They claimed to have provided about £35 million to fight that problem, yet, a year later, it is estimated that a staggering 75 per cent. of beer imports are still illegal. I do not suggest that the staff of Customs and Excise are not trying to do their job, but even their hard work cannot combat a highly sophisticated and highly organised network of beer bootleggers. Would it not be preferable to fight the problem by reducing the tax in the country where the damage is done than by spending huge sums on enforcing new customs schemes? Otherwise, the risks of smuggling might increase, but the rewards will remain.

The legal importation of beer is another equally devastating blow to our country's brewing industry. It appears that the Government have not listened hard enough to accounts of the plight of brewers that is caused by the massive importation of cheap foreign beer: one pint in every 20 drunk in this country is imported from the continent, resulting in an annual average loss in sales of £12,000 to every pub in the country. That is hard for rural pubs, many of which exist on the edge of economic viability.

This year, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury announced in the House that the Treasury estimated that the Government had lost £50 million to cross-border shopping for beer alone in 1997 and at least £140 million to cross-channel beer smuggling in 1998—a total of £190 million, which is a substantial sum that could have gone into the economy of this country. There is a patent link between lower revenue and higher imports which the Government appear reluctant to tackle. Conservatives recognised the link between loss of revenue suffered by the Government and high duty and made the tax share of the price of a pint of beer the lowest in 30 years.

That point is important, because of the great concern that if beer duty were cut, a large amount of Government revenue would suddenly disappear. That argument would be understandable were it not unfounded. The Treasury's own figures show that considerable economic benefits would accrue from a 20 per cent. cut in beer tax spread over three years. Inflation would fall by 0.5 per cent. and at least 60,000 additional jobs would be created, both because of cheaper beer and the trade won back from the bootleggers. Perhaps the most attractive figure for the Government is that the public sector borrowing requirement would fall by more than £800 million.

I emphasise that any loss of revenue would be short term. It stands to reason that reduced duty rates in Britain would boost domestic consumption, more than outweighing any effect that lower rates might have on revenues. It also stands to reason that if people are not sat at home drinking beer bought in France, they are more likely to be sat in a pub drinking beer bought in Britain. When the Conservative Government reduced the top rate of tax from 60 per cent. to 40 per cent., we found that the total tax take increased. If the Government were to cut beer tax, they would make the same discovery: reduce the tax and the tax take increases. In addition, rural areas would be helped. Surely the Government understand all those long-term benefits.

If duty remains as it is on the continent—so much lower than it is here—it will encourage more smuggling and more shopping overseas, which, in turn, mean less revenue for the Government. That is already happening: the consumption of beer in pubs has declined by almost 2,000 barrels, whereas the importation of beer has increased by 25 per cent. year on year. That is not surprising, given that a Transit van can carry as much beer in one journey as is sold in a small pub in one week. Bootleggers import the equivalent of the beer sales of 5,000 small country pubs, which is almost the number of pubs in Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. That is the scale of the problem. With the UK's duty rate starting as the highest in Europe and then rising, it is entirely predictable that consumers have decided to save money by travelling to France to buy beer. That is all hugely damaging.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the illegal trade in beer is increasingly moving away from the white Transit van trade to paper fraud, which involves beer that has never left the country and which is on sale, not at car boot sales, but in corner shops and other places where people buy beer, believing that they are buying it legally?

That is an extremely good point. If such a huge differential in rates of duty persists, there will be continuing incentives for all sorts of fraud and smuggling. That is especially damaging to small rural pubs, which rely heavily on the sale of beer and often operate at the margins of profitability. Approximately 2,700 small rural pubs have closed in the past 20 years, in spite of Conservatives' attempts to free pubs from ties to national brewers and to enable them to have greater access to the market.

The beer and pub industry is a major employer—often one of the main employers in its locality. Pubs are at the heart of the rural economy and rural social life. Thus their effect on the rural economy derives from being a direct employer and a focus for rural life.

A representative of a small brewer, Weetwood Ales, attended the first surgery that I held after winning the Eddisbury by-election to say that he hoped that we would all sign early-day motion 125 on progressive beer duty because the brewery, as a rural employer, was suffering from being penalised.

I am not surprised that beer duty was one of the first issues to be raised with my hon. Friend after he became a Member of Parliament. The early-day motion attracted considerable support from all parties. I shall comment further on that.

Excessive beer duty causes chronic problems for rural pubs and leads to closures. One and a half million pints of beer that are consumed every day in Britain are bought in France and drunk at home. Many rural communities have no pub. According to the Rural Development Commission, 40 per cent. of communities with a population of 1,000 are publess and 40 per cent. have only one pub. Do the Government want to stand by while more of the heart is taken out of our rural communities?

The problem is not confined to the country pub. The family brewing industry, which offers good jobs and provides excellent training, has suffered a series of closures in the past two years. Only 65 breweries remain in Britain-10 fewer than last year. Two brewers, Gibbs Mew and Eldridge Pope, were forced to close last year. More recently, Morrells, one of the country's longest standing family brewers, which is based in Oxford, announced its intention to sell. In the past six months, Maclays and Mitchells have withdrawn from brewing. Clearly, such haemorrhaging, if it is allowed to continue, will threaten the future of the small and medium-sized brewery, such as the 150-year-old Hook Norton brewery in my constituency. Most family breweries are located in rural areas. Again, Government inaction hits the countryside hard. The bootleggers will continue to suck the rural economy dry.

The family brewer and the public house are more closely tied as the family brewer constitutes the largest group of tied tenancies in this country. Partnerships are often forged over many years of working with a local brewer and providing a real service to local communities. Last year, nearly 700 of those pubs closed. The Government should help them as they are often the last bastion of village community life when the school and the shop have closed. Pubs provide good job opportunities that may not otherwise be available in small towns and villages, and harming them will harm job opportunities. That would lead to a loss of revenue that would be laid at the Government's door. It is preferable for jobs to remain in this country, so why do the Government not support the approach that we suggest?

As a short-term compromise, the Society of Independent Brewers and the Campaign for Real Ale have argued for a progressive beer duty, which would mean that small brewers—those who produce less than 30,000 hectolitres a year—would pay only half the excise duty. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) alluded to the recent early-day motion which supported that proposal and attracted 155 signatures from all parts of the House. The Society of Independent Brewers rightly argues that that positive measure would revitalise the United Kingdom brewing industry and, as small breweries tend to be located in rural areas, it would provide a tremendous boost to those communities. Therefore, a progressive beer duty would substantially support the family brewing industry and the rural economy.

The only long-term solution is a significant reduction in the rate of beer tax, not half-measure compromises. The Government must reduce beer duty in line with that in France to undermine cross-border bootlegging and shopping, and simultaneously stimulate economic activity in brewing and the country pub, and ultimately increase the revenue to the Treasury. That is the only realistic way in which to preserve this important rural industry and reinvigorate the rural economy, which the Government are neglecting. I very much hope that the Government will take heed and seek to ensure that family brewers in this country can continue brewing well into the next century and beyond.

9.30 pm

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry) on securing this debate. I listened with great interest to his speech and his remarks about the Hook Norton brewery in his constituency. I join him in wishing that brewery another 150 years of successful trading. I hope that, after hearing my contribution, he will feel that there are grounds for optimism and for believing that that organisation and others will continue to flourish in years ahead. The Government certainly value the important contribution that independent family breweries make to the beer industry and the economy as a whole. They bring diversity to the market and, as the hon. Gentleman said, provide employment opportunities for their local community.

I remind the hon. Gentleman about the important role of alcohol duties in general, and beer duty in particular, in financing public services. In the past financial year, we collected £5.967 billion from alcohol duties in general, and beer accounted for £2.7 billion of that. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman that high taxation is putting small breweries and pubs out of business. There are many reasons for the failure of commercial enterprises, and it is much too simplistic to blame duty rates for breweries and pubs closing. From time to time, village shops close. The hon. Gentleman needs to look elsewhere for the explanation for the closures.

In the light of what the hon. Gentleman said, I believe that he may be surprised to learn that alcoholic beverages are now taxed less heavily than they were at the introduction of the single market. Since January 1994—when, if I remember rightly, the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Government—excise duty on beer has fallen in real terms by more than 6 per cent. He made several comments about Conservatives' beliefs on this issue, but they did not appear to hold those beliefs when they were in government.

In addition, the proportion of duty to the cost of a pint has fallen. In 1982, tax represented 38 per cent. of the retail price; today, tax makes up less than 30 per cent. of the price. Despite lower taxation on beer in real terms, the retail price of beer, particularly in the on-trade, continues to rise faster than the average rate of increase in prices in general. The retail price of on-trade beer has risen above the rate of inflation throughout the 1990s.

When the Chancellor increased duty by 1p a pint in his 1997 Budget, price increases by a number of brewers put up bar prices by 8p a pint. Within two weeks of the Chancellor announcing his freeze on beer duty in the previous Budget, one large brewery announced a price increase of up to 6p a pint, and that action was followed by three of its major competitors. Taking January 1987 as 100, the retail price index for all items for August 1999 was 165.5, but the price of beer on the same index was 205.8.

There may be many good commercial reasons for that; nevertheless it is inaccurate to attribute high prices of beer in pubs solely to duty rates. I remind the hon. Gentleman also that the Chancellor's decision to freeze beer duty in the previous Budget represented a cut in duty in real terms. Of course, some in the beer industry argued that the Chancellor should have gone further. The Opposition suggested a 74 per cent. cut in beer duty during the passage of the previous Finance Bill. That proposal would have cost the Exchequer about £3.3 billion in total, including the consequent effect on the rate of duty on wine because, of course, the rates of duty on beer and wine are linked. The cut would have been equivalent to an income tax rise of almost 2p in the pound or a 1 per cent. rise in VAT. The Conservative party did not suggest how that money should be recouped.

The hon. Gentleman made the point that the industry argues for a progressive movement towards approximation with duty levels elsewhere in the European Union—in France, for example. However, reducing alcohol duty rates to French levels would cost more than £5 billion in lost duty and VAT—about 3p on the basic rate of income tax or two percentage points on VAT. Changes on such a scale are simply not realistic, which is no doubt why the previous Government did not move in that direction either.

The hon. Gentleman rightly drew the House's attention to the effects of smuggling, which is undoubtedly a significant problem. He used the problem to support the arguments for drastic cuts in duty. That must be put into perspective. Revenue lost through legal and illegal consumption of imported alcohol amounts to about 2 per cent. of total revenue from alcoholic drinks.

We take criminal activity extremely seriously. Smuggling and fraud deprives the Exchequer of much-needed revenue and threatens law-abiding businesses that want to make an honest living, but we cannot afford to let it undermine our policies and revenue objectives. That is why we initiated the alcohol and tobacco fraud review, which, in consultation with the industry, recommended a comprehensive set of measures to tackle fraud and smuggling. The hon. Gentleman referred to some of the outcome of that review.

As a result, a vigorous programme of counter-measures is being implemented, we have deployed an additional 145 staff—most of them in the front line—and new regulations aimed specifically at tackling commercial fraud are being put in place. We are urging the courts to use all sanctions available against regular offenders who, for example, now face losing their vehicles permanently if they persist in smuggling. Where retailers who are members of the licensed trade are convicted of smuggling offences, Customs and Excise can and does seek revocation of liquor licences.

Customs has recently joined forces with Camelot to fight alcohol and tobacco fraud. As a result, national lottery retailers who are convicted of selling or distributing smuggled alcohol and tobacco could lose their lottery terminals. With annual commission of around £7,500, selling national lottery tickets is often an important part of a retailer's business. That is, therefore, another powerful measure. By working together with other agencies in that way, we are taking steps to crack down on law-breaking, and so help to protect innocent businesses that are not involved in selling smuggled products.

Tougher policies and better targeting are biting, and, as a result, Customs is reporting increasing levels of success against smugglers. In the financial year 1998–99, the tax value of detections by Excise verification officers and anti-smuggling staff rose to £140 million from £76 million over the previous year. In the same period, Customs investigators prevented revenue evasion totalling almost £1 billion—£986 million.

Cutting UK duty rates is not the answer; it is unlikely to stop smuggling and fraud. It is true that price differentials across national borders play a part in the incentive to smuggle, but duty is not the only factor in establishing price.

Some argue that duty rates and consequent competition from imported beer, whether smuggled or purchased legitimately by travellers—the hon. Gentleman referred to this—are directly to blame for pubs and breweries closing. I am aware that some local pubs have closed, but a range of factors are at play—not least brewers' commercial decisions, which are driven by their aim to maximise profits and minimise costs, as one would expect, and which reflect similar decisions taken in other business sectors.

Shepherd Neame, for example, stated in one of its annual reports that part of its future strategy is to

"continue to dispose of back-street and isolated country houses which do not have a viable long-term future".

Interestingly, Shepherd Neame has opened its own pub in the Pas de Calais, where it charges more for its Spitfire beer than it does in its Kent pubs, despite the very much lower duty in France. I applaud the company for its entrepreneurial skills, and I hope that thousands in the Pas de Calais will switch to Spitfire beer as a result, but that places a question mark against claims that duty is to blame for increasing the price of beer in the United Kingdom.

Long-term changes are occurring in consumer tastes—especially, in the UK, an increasing preference for wine. Beer's share of the alcoholic drink market fell from 65 per cent. in 1977 to 54 per cent. in 1998, and in the same period, the share accounted for by wine increased from 10 to 20 per cent. An article in the 1 November edition of The Licensee and Morning Advertiser, of which I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is a keen reader, suggests that a likely reason for the shrinking beer market is the breadth of competition that traditional brewers now face from premium packaged spirits, such as Bacardi Breezers, and the growing availability of reasonably priced quality wine. Many underlying trends are contributing to the visible changes.

The proportion of drinkers who drink beer is falling. Interestingly, the share of the alcoholic market in France accounted for by wine is falling. Change is taking place throughout Europe, and we should not be too surprised about what is happening in the UK.

Social changes are affecting people's drinking habits. Increasingly, drink-drive laws are persuading people to drink at home. In absolute terms, the amount of beer consumed in the on-trade has decreased by about 11 per cent. since 1989. In the same period, off-trade sales have increased in volume by more than 50 per cent. The closure of some local pubs, obviously affected by those changes, also reflects a wider general social trend.

As the hon. Gentleman said, some breweries—such as Scottish Courage's Bristol brewery and Whitbread's Cheltenham and Castle Eden breweries—have closed, but that seems to be generally a result of the rationalisation that the sector is undergoing to reduce overcapacity in the industry. Other breweries have been subject to takeover; the hon. Gentleman mentioned the acquisition of Marston's brewery by Wolverhampton and Dudley's. Such takeovers appear to result from the desire to achieve efficiency gains and market position.

Nevertheless, in the past 12 months, strong results and increased profits have been reported by many brewers of all sizes, including independent family brewers. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to quote CAMRA's news release of 21 June. It said:
"We're tired of hearing half-truths about the regional brewing sector when several important independent brewers are announcing increases in real ale sales, profit increases and investment plans. Despite the latest official sales figures"—
I am not sure what is meant by "official sales figures" in that context—
"which indicate a decline, real ale remains central to the success of many family and regional brewers."
Examples follow.
  • "Young's of London—profits up…31 per cent.
  • Fuller's of London—…up 21 per cent.
  • Belhavens of East Lothian—…up 15 per cent.
  • Gale's of Hampshire—…up 13 per cent.
  • Timothy Taylor of Keighley—output up, spending £150,000 on new brewing equipment
  • Arkells of Swindon—profits up and pub estate growing
  • Saint Austell of Cornwall—investing £1 million in its brewery
  • Shepherd Neame—investing £1.5 million in its brewery".
In the past year, the share of the beer market accounted for by the 55 regional brewers has increased from 6 to 7 per cent.

The number of microbreweries is pretty healthy. During the 20 years since 1980, the number of microbreweries has increased from 191 to 340. We closely monitor the performance of the industry at all levels, and all these factors are taken into account by the Chancellor in his Budget decisions. The trade can, as always, make its views known to the Chancellor before the next Budget.

I ask the hon. Gentleman to treat with caution the figures that he quoted with regard to the effects of a 20 per cent. cut in beer tax. He was referring, I think, to research commissioned by the trade and carried out three years ago. That is simply wrong. It would be wonderful to think that cutting taxes could have that effect, but the reality is rather different.

I shall quote a much more recent study on alcohol taxes, tax revenues and the single European market, which was published just last month by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the view of the IFS. It states:
"We find that the duty rates on beer and wine are below their revenue-maximising levels, so cutting duty on those drinks is likely to cause indirect tax revenue to fall."
The trade has moved away from the 1996 study, recognising that it is not a dependable indicator of what would happen if there were a tax reduction.

The previous Government, of which the hon. Gentleman was a member, did not go down that road. The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien), who intervened in the speech of the hon. Member for Banbury, is innocent of that charge, but the hon. Member for Banbury is not.

I hope that I have succeeded in explaining to the hon. Gentleman and the House the basis of the Government's approach to these matters. Of course, when the time comes, the Chancellor will take a decision about the rate of beer duty in the Budget.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at fourteen minutes to Ten o'clock.