How many people have visited Tate Modern. [128195]

At close of business on 7 July, Tate Modern had attracted 1,180,002 visitors.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those numbers are a vindication of the Government's policy to encourage free entry to our great national collections? Does he also agree that that contrasts markedly with the policy of the Conservative party when in government? The previous Government encouraged museums and galleries to charge for entry amid plummeting visitor numbers.

I agree with my hon. Friend and I am delighted that, as a result of our decision to increase the funds available to the Tate galleries by £5 million this year and £6 million next year, Tate Modern has been able to open with free entry to visitors. That has been a crucial part of the new gallery's success.

Without pre-empting Question 2, does the Secretary of State believe that the success of Tate Modern is due to the fact that the British people prefer modern art to the contents of the dome, or that it is due to free entry? Getting into the dome is very expensive.

The hon. Gentleman should realise that well over 3 million people have already visited the dome and the majority of them have greatly enjoyed the experience. As to comparing the dome with Tate Modern, they are very different institutions.

Will my right hon. Friend accept the congratulations of all of us who have pressed for free admission to museums and art galleries? Does he accept that his splendid work on ensuring that people realise the value of art, especially modern art, has been vindicated and that people have reacted favourably to the free admission policy that he has conscientiously pursued?

My right hon. Friend has also pursued the matter with great diligence and skill, and I am grateful for his support. We have guaranteed to all the museums that are currently free—that includes the Tate—that they can continue to be free to everyone. We have also ensured that, from April last year, all children have been able to visit for free the national museums that charge for entry, something which we inherited from the Conservative party. That has led to a 21 per cent. increase in the number of children visiting those museums. From April this year, those museums have been free to all pensioners.

If he will make a statement on visitor numbers to the millennium dome. [128196]

The dome is already the United Kingdom's most successful paying visitor attraction, achieving more than 3 million visitors in its first six months. On that basis, the New Millennium Experience Company is well on its way to achieving its revised target of 6 million paying visitors by the end of the year.

Given that, in the face of all the evidence, Ministers are the only people who believe that the dome is a success, when will the £139 million that the Millennium Commission loaned to the project be repaid? Will it be repaid?

Let me put on record the conditions that cover the grant. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows them only too well. The Millennium Commission met on 22 May and approved an additional grant of £29 million, subject to stringent conditions, to cover cash flow, and £3 million specifically for marketing purposes. The conditions are that NMEC's management governance should be strengthened and restructured; that there should be a revised business plan that shows substantial additional cost savings and enhanced marketing plans; and that an enhanced financial team at NMEC should be joined by a dedicated member of the Millennium Commission's financial staff.

Will my hon. Friend comment on the cost of clearing the site for the millennium dome? It is a site of substantial inner-city development, which had lain derelict because of contamination—a significant factor in the cost of the millennium experience from which Conservative Members try to make capital. Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that unemployment in my constituency for the long-term unemployed is down by almost 50 per cent., and by more than 70 per cent. for the young unemployed. Much of that is attributable to the success of the millennium exhibition at Greenwich as a regeneration project.

My hon. Friend is right. The significant investment has done a great deal to regenerate areas in and around his constituency. I am sure that hon. Members of all parties welcome that.

On a private basis, politicians will come here with their families and say that we have really turned the Dome around since January…and that we have really made a difference. And, funnily enough, the next morning they will appear on television and say: "The dome is ridiculous. It is a disgrace."

The target for the number of visitors to the dome has not been achieved. What steps is the Minister taking in terms of the two short-listed companies to ensure that the dome's new incarnation is a success? Will she ensure that there is public consultation other than the token consultation that has taken place so far? It is important that the dome is more of a success than it has been so far. To achieve that, the public's views must be clearly established. We must also ensure that the dome's future use is not determined by some grubby attempt to get a cash flow for the last few months of the year to keep the dome limping on to 31 December.

The hon. Gentleman knows only too well that the revised business plan of the New Millennium Experience Company is based on the revised projection of 6 million visitors. The dome is well on the way to achieving that number and, in fact, is already the most successful tourist attraction in the country.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I went with my four children—one of them in a school swing band—to the dome the other Saturday? For £57, we had eight hours of information and education, had a lot of fun and saw a great "Blackadder" film. It cost 57 quid to keep kids occupied for eight hours, which is a very good deal for a Saturday in London. Is she also aware that Rotherham and hundreds of other towns and cities have got a day in the dome—kids are really looking forward to it—but they are fed up with the whingeing, whiny, wallies, the anti-dome dumping drongos in the Conservative party who always want to destroy a good day out for the children of this country?

The short answer to my hon. Friend's question is yes. May I take this opportunity to underline the dome's popularity as a visitor attraction? It has achieved an extraordinary 85 per cent. satisfaction rating, with an exceptional 90 per cent. satisfaction rating for host staff.

Will the Minister confirm that, whoever wins the competition to rescue the dome from the Government, insufficient visitor numbers will ensure that a large amount of the money originally earmarked for regeneration will be sunk into paying off the dome's debts? Is not that a pathetic waste of resources? Instead of resorting to the usual bombast about the dome being a great success, which no one believes, why does not she apologise for the whole miserable affair?

There is no need to apologise for something that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Efford) said, has done so much to regenerate a previously disused part of Greenwich and south-east London. The hon. Gentleman refers to reports in the press this morning, so I shall refer him to a press notice that the Millennium Commission issued in response, which puts the record straight. The only percentage of the proceeds that has been decided so far is the 7.5 per cent. that has to go to British Gas. The press notice states:

The actual income from the sale of the Dome and the site is now estimated at around £100m. Three years ago when the original plans were being drawn up the £15m figure was used as a nominal estimate. Nobody had any idea of what would be the value of the Dome and the site. It would be wrong now if the Lottery and the good causes did not get a fair share of the cake—

"the poor" and good causes will not lose out and, in fact, will be supported by funds from the sale of the Dome.

If the Minister will not apologise, I shall make a suggestion that may help to boost the visitor numbers. P—Y says that he has been misled by the Government and that Ministers are not doing enough to help, so why does not she get down there and set up a new competition? They could ask one question: "What do the following have in common: the debt-riddled dome, the closed Millennium bridge, the U-turn on universal free access to museums, the fiasco over Wembley and the failure to win the world cup bid?" The answer is that they all fall under the responsibility of the Secretary of State. Visitors to the dome could then vote on who has had the more miserable year so far—the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State.

The hon. Gentleman could do with a new scriptwriter. Given that he is talking about what unites people, the only thing that unites Conservative Members is Mr. Gerbeau's suggestion that, on a private basis, Conservative politicians visit the dome and say they have a wonderful day, but the next morning they appear on television and say that it is ridiculous and a disgrace. They should be ashamed of themselves.

What plans he has to support increased internet access in public libraries.[128197]

We have set a target that all UK public libraries, where practicable, will have public internet access and link to the national grid for learning by 2002. Through the national lottery new opportunities fund, £170 million is being provided to support the network infrastructure, train library staff and create content for delivery over this people's network.

I am pleased that Stockport has already received £92,000 from the new opportunities fund to increase internet access and that the National Library for the Blind has also received £62,000 in Government money to set up an interactive website. Does my hon. Friend agree that those extra resources open up the internet to people who otherwise might not have access, and continue the library service as a source of enjoyment, education and information to the community?

I agree with my hon. Friend and share her pleasure at the increased funding to strengthen library services in Stockport. The award from the DCMS-Wolfson reader development programme to the National Library for the Blind's project, called "A Touch Of', represents support for an excellent initiative that involves specialist staff in Stockport and public library staff across the country. All the funding that she reports for Stockport shows how we are working to ensure that there is no digital divide and that everyone—including, importantly, disabled people—has access to a full range of information, lifelong learning and cultural opportunities.

Although increased internet access through public libraries would be welcomed in rural constituencies such as Vale of York, that will succeed only if a library is open for enough hours to make it possible and if sufficient qualified library staff are available to guide people through the internet. Can the Minister assure the House that that will be possible?

As the hon. Lady is probably aware, we have put out for consultation draft national library standards, with the thought very much in mind that it is important to ensure that people in rural areas have access to a proper public library service. The proposed standard is that no user should have to travel for more than 20 minutes to use a library. We have also suggested standards for opening hours and for book purchases to enable public libraries to make further progress towards recovering from the blighted years of the mid-1990s.

What steps he is taking to increase the number of visits by pensioners to museums and galleries. [128200]

From 1 April, free entry for the over-60s was introduced to those museums funded by my Department that currently charge for admission, including the national museums and galleries on Merseyside; the national museum of science and industry, including the national railway museum at York; the natural history museum; the imperial war museum; the national maritime museum; the Victoria and Albert museum; the royal armouries at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth; and the Tate gallery at St. Ives.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he welcome the free access to the Grundy art gallery in Blackpool and the special concerts and exhibitions that it puts on to attract pensioners and does he recognise that physical barriers may deter older people from enjoying, for example, the excellent exhibitions at the Fleetwood museum? Will he therefore consider the physical nature of buildings in order to attract more older and disabled people to exhibitions?

My hon. Friend raises a valid point about the importance of physical as well as financial access to museums and galleries, particularly local ones. I envisage that museum as a prime candidate for an application to the heritage lottery fund special access fund, which was created two years ago with our encouragement, and I certainly suggest that it discusses those possibilities with the HLF.

Given that the right hon. Gentleman's Department issued a press release on 24 July 1998 signalling that there would be free access—first for children, subsequently for pensioners and ultimately for everyone—to all our DCMS-sponsored national museums, does he have the good grace to admit that he has broken that pledge and to apologise to all the people whom he has disgracefully let down?

No. Criticism on that subject comes rich from the Conservatives, who introduced charges for museum access. In the comprehensive spending review document "A New Cultural Framework", which we published at that time, we said that we would introduce free access for children. That we have done. We said that we would introduce free access for pensioners. That we have done. We said that we would seek to widen access further. That we have also done, with the commitment, which is on the table, for charging museums to make a £1 charge for adults from September next year.

My right hon. Friend may remember that, at the last culture questions, my hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts mentioned the importance of free access for pensioners and said that it had been linked not to pension age, but to the age of 60. There is concern that some Departments are introducing schemes based on the ages of 60 and 65, contrary to the policy of other Departments. Has any progress been made in providing the House with the legal advice that the Department has received, and which I requested at the last Question Time?

I apologise to my hon. Friend if she has not yet received that information. I shall ensure that she receives it as soon as is humanly possible.

Many pensioners go to museums and galleries because they are interested in a particular exhibition. Is the Minister aware that galleries and museums now find that they have to charge extra for those special exhibitions, but do not take pensioners into consideration?

Ultimately, that is for individual museums or galleries, of which there are more than 2,000 around the country, to decide. I hope that they will bear pensioners' needs in mind when considering charging regimes for such exhibitions.

What is his latest assessment of the date for the switchover of the analogue TV signal. [128201]

We have estimated that switchover could take place between 2006 and 2010. The date, however, will depend on the two key tests of availability and affordability that we have put in place.

On the question of affordability, does my right hon. Friend share my concern about the high cost of digital radio sets, which cost several hundred pounds and are thus beyond the reach of most people? Does he anticipate that radio sets, in particular, will have become affordable by that date?

The switchover date applies to television, not to radio. No date has yet been set for switchover from analogue to digital radio. I would certainly hope that, as both the technology and manufacturers' capacity develop, the cost of digital radio sets will fall.

Does the Secretary of State agree that, until the board of governors and the board of management of the BBC learn what public sector broadcasting really means, he should consider switching off BBC 1?

No. It is my strong view that the BBC, as our premier public sector broadcaster and our most important cultural institution, must retain its public service remit into the digital age. It must be the benchmark of quality.

If he will make a statement on the total amount of national lottery and public money invested in the millennium dome. [128203]

A total of £538 million of national lottery money has been granted to the project. No taxpayers' money has been invested in the construction or running of the dome or in its contents.

I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Will he assure the House and many people outside that no further national lottery money will go into the dome, and that it will have to survive on what it has had thus far? What is likely to happen to the building in the long run? Will the massive amount of lottery money that has gone into it be recouped and spent on other public projects or will the dome remain open and for public use for some other purpose in the future?

As I told the House in Question Time a month ago, we have made it clear to the New Millennium Experience Company that it must operate within the budget now set for it. I was delighted that Mr. Gerbeau has confirmed on a number of occasions that he will not be returning to the Millennium Commission for extra funds.

The Secretary of State remains brazenly proud of what most of the nation realises is a disgraceful waste of public money. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the figure of 3 million. Does he agree with me that the difference between the dome and Tate Modern is that 5,000 fewer people a day go to the dome than visit the Tate Modern? The reason for that is because the dome contains classic new Labour tat, whereas the contents of the Tate Modern are first class. Is not the Secretary of State concerned that, when Mr. Gerbeau names and shames at the end of this year, his name will be in the headlights?

The hon. Gentleman is right to point to the wonderful success of Tate Modern. I am proud of the role that the Government have played in helping to ensure that success. However, he perhaps has not noticed the actual figures. For example, on 25 June the dome had its highest Sunday attendance ever at 27,234 people.

What progress is being made by local authorities in developing local cultural strategies. [128204]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State published draft guidance on local cultural strategies for all local authorities in England in June last year. The guidance emphasises the importance of cultural services in improving the quality of life for all.

I thank the Minister for visiting my constituency last week to see how we are using our culture and heritage as a driving force for economic regeneration, and to see for herself why Gravesend is now such a tourist hot spot. Does she agree with me that good local cultural strategies are a powerful way of helping to regenerate local economies, and that cultural and multicultural strategies draw local communities together?

My hon. Friend is right. The local cultural strategies initiative stems from the Government's belief, as stated in our election manifesto, in the value of all local authorities producing cultural strategies to draw together all aspects of local cultural activity. I much enjoyed my visit to my hon. Friend's constituency. I place on record my congratulations to Gravesham council for the active pursuit of a local cultural strategy. I did not know until I went to Gravesend that Pocahontas is buried there under St. George's church, and I had a pleasant visit to the home of Charles Dickens, in which he wrote "Great Expectations". I urge those who have not been to Gravesend to do so very soon.

We on the Conservative Benches have nothing particularly against local cultural strategies, although a growing number of local authorities are coming round to our view that regional cultural consortiums are a waste of space and money.

For the first time in 50 years of living here, I feel depressed by a government. I am depressed by their dreadful use of rhetoric, the misuse of language…I think they don't believe half the things they say and they are trying to find words to cover up their lack of belief.

They think they are fighting for the common man, whereas they are demeaning the entire country.

Order. Did the Minister hear a question? I did not. I probably missed it because of all the noise.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will try to identify the question. I suggested earlier that the hon. Gentleman try to find a new script writer. I suggest now that he tries to find a new researcher who reads something other than the Tatler.

It has not quite reached the pages of the Tatler yet, but is my hon. Friend aware that many local authorities are desperately strapped for cash, particularly because some programmes have not benefited from the increase in Government funding for local authorities? In particular, my local authority, Dacorum, is faced with a 41 per cent. reduction in its funds next year because of the change to resource accounting. Will she ensure that local authorities are genuinely enabled to have the resources to spend on what is a worthwhile project?

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. May I remind him that the last local government settlement was the best that local authorities had received for 15 years? That is not to say that we do not understand the problems faced by many local authorities. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular meetings with local government associations to ensure that we are in tune with their needs. Leisure services and cultural services are, of course, discretionary. Nevertheless, local authorities have strongly welcomed our initiative on local cultural strategies and played a full part in developing our guidance.

If he will make a statement on his targets to increase the number of hours each week spent by (a) adults and (b) young people on participating in sport. [128206]

Increasing participation in sport across all age groups and abilities is a key feature of the recently published Government sports strategy, "A Sporting Future For All".

That was a bit of an unspecific answer. Will the Minister use her enthusiasm to try to change the current statistics? Although more young people are participating in sport, the average length of time that they spend doing so is about seven and a half hours a week, whereas they watch television for about 11 and a half hours a week. The amount of time spent on physical education in schools across all age groups has dropped considerably over the past five years.

The hon. Gentleman is right. The more participation, the more chance there is of spotting the talent, getting to the top and winning, which is what the country wants.

Does not Labour's sports strategy owe a huge debt to the last Government? One billion pounds of lottery funding has gone into 3,000 grass-roots sports projects. Given that so many initiatives mentioned in the Minister's own White Paper depend on the continuation of lottery funding—for instance, the space for sports and the arts initiative in schools—and on destroying the arm's-length principle in regard to the lottery that Labour thought so important when in opposition, can the Minister tell us who has overall responsibility for investment in schools projects? Is it her Department, the Department for Education and Employment, or the lottery funding bodies?

That is nonsense. As the hon. Gentleman will hear if he listens to the tape, what I said was that many people felt from the beginning that those who could not secure the support of their own region obviously started at a disadvantage. I said nothing that others have not said—nothing that the chairman of the Football Association, for instance, has not said in the past few days. I hope that we shall all learn the lessons of what has happened with the world cup bid.

I hope my hon. Friend can tell me that the Labour Government are not carrying out Tory party policy, because Tory party policy was to close all those playing fields and sell them off. On top of that, the Tories closed 600 pits—which meant that nearly half the miners' welfares, all with massive playing fields, were closed and sold off as well.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why we have been so determined to stop the compulsory sale of playing fields. The last Government sold many of our young people's opportunities down the river by selling so many. We are ensuring that that does not happen now.

Does the Minister not recognise that many sales of school playing fields were carried out by Labour local authorities, and that, despite her much vaunted policy, few projected sales have been stopped by it? It is all very well to have the rhetoric; the practice is entirely contrary to it.

If the hon. Gentleman looked at the figures, he would see that the rhetoric is the fact—and the fact is that now, rather than 40 playing fields being sold on a regular basis, three have been sold.

If he will review the regulations covering concessionary TV licences in sheltered residential accommodation for elderly people. [128207]

This concessionary scheme was examined last year by the Davies panel which concluded that, despite its obvious drawbacks, it should be retained since no superior alternative, funded through the licence fee, could be found. We decided to accept the panel's recommendation that the scheme should be retained and have no plans for a further review.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. People in my constituency welcome the free television licence for over-75s. However, I should like to draw my hon. Friend's attention to the situation in Samford Court, Worlingham, in my constituency, where all 40 flats lost their entitlement to the shared television licence scheme because the housing association moved in one resident who was 59. Although I think that the housing association should have known better, and that the case demonstrates rather insensitive management, I also think that the case demonstrates the continuing unsatisfactory nature of the licence regime for sheltered accommodation.

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend on that last point. He also raises a very important issue that I know causes concern in many constituencies across the country. We have always said that we recognise that the £5 accommodation for residential care—the ARC—concessionary television licence scheme is unsatisfactory. We also know that that dissatisfaction and unsatisfactory way of operating continue. However, about 80 per cent. of ARC beneficiaries are 75 or over, and the over-75 concession will help the very elderly living alone, who represent some of the most glaring examples of the unfairness of the ARC scheme.

That was a remarkable answer. If the Minister admits that it is not fair for those who are 60 to 74 and outside a sheltered home not to get a concession whereas those who are inside such a home do get one, why is she not doing something about it?

The hon. Gentleman is obviously not listening: the scheme that operated under the previous Government was patently unfair, and we have begun to do something about it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer decided that he could begin to afford to strip that unfairness out of the system. Consequently, 3 million pensioners over 75 will benefit from a free television licence. Many of them did not benefit from such a concession before.

What steps his Department has taken to support investment in new buildings for museums and galleries since May 1997. [128208]

Since May 1997, my Department has provided an additional £100 million for museums and galleries through grant-in-aid and other programmes. My Department directly supports the Designation Challenge fund and Resource, which provide funding to enable museums and galleries to undertake feasibility studies and options appraisals for new buildings. The lottery, which is sponsored by my Department, has provided almost £35 million towards new buildings for museums and galleries. That is in addition to the very substantial sums awarded by the lottery towards the improvement of existing museum and gallery facilities.

My hon. Friend will undoubtedly be aware not only of Lincoln's contemporary and historical significance, but of the fact that we currently do not have a museum in which to celebrate, to put on displays or to offer educational and leisure opportunities both to visitors and to local people—so that we can really show off the city's heritage and culture. How can the Department for Culture, Media and Sport support Lincoln in developing a much needed county and city museum that would certainly be very popular and well used?

My hon. Friend has the privilege of representing a great, historic and extremely beautiful city. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had the pleasure of visiting Lincoln recently, and I know that he listened carefully to the views expressed by my hon. Friend and others about the importance of the project to which she has referred, and he has passed on those considerations to the heritage lottery fund. She is a doughty advocate on behalf of her city, and I wish her well in her quest.

What steps he is taking to support local heritage initiatives. [128210]

We welcome the heritage lottery fund's decision to make local heritage one of its four main priorities. It has committed £8 million to its local heritage initiative, which is designed to help local communities to investigate, explain and care for their landscape, landmarks, traditions and culture.

I thank and congratulate my right hon. Friend. What role does he envisage for the local pub in any local heritage initiative?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the role of the British pub as an integral part of the local heritage in many parts of the country. Not only buildings but the names of pubs often reflect local history or events. Many pubs have changed their names for various reasons over the years, but there appears to be a growing fashion of rebranding pubs with names such as "The Dog and Doughnut" or "The Goose and Granite"—names which appear to have little relevance to the history of any area.

I am pleased to hear that the Secretary of State is so keen on pub names. Will he undertake some research and tell us how many pubs are called "The Spinner", as that might be of some benefit to the Labour party?

I suspect that the number is similar to that of pubs named "The Silly Question".

What steps his Department is taking to obtain the views of tourism organisations in British seaside resorts. [128211]

My officials and I have regular contact with local authorities and business partnerships from seaside resorts, and with organisations such as the British Resorts Association, in which my hon. Friend plays a leading role. Let me say how pleased I was to attend the association's annual meeting both this year and last.

My hon. Friend is zealous in defending within the Government the interests of seaside towns. I hope that she will have time to visit seaside towns and talk to local hoteliers this summer and that she will listen to the concerns that many of them have about assisted area status grants for tourism under tier 3, and relay those concerns to her colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry. Will she also raise the issue of lottery grants for seaside towns, given the recent reports that they have not been getting their fair share?

I remind my hon. Friend that when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State published his report on lottery funding for former coalfield areas, Sheffield Hallam university, which undertook the research, said:

Similar targets should be applied to other areas where the level of Lottery funding activity has been well below the national average. This might include resort and retirement towns, and mixed urban/rural areas outside the coalfields.

If he will make a statement on the future level of the television licence fee. [128212]

The licence fee rose by inflation plus 1.5 per cent. on 1 April this year and will rise by the same amount each year until 2006–07, when the current royal charter runs out. That additional funding will enable the BBC to provide a strong and distinctive schedule of benchmark quality programmes on all its services and should help to drive the take-up of new digital and online services.

In view of my right hon. Friend's reply to an earlier question about the future governance of the BBC, what lessons has he drawn from the "News at Ten" affair about appropriate frameworks for governance, given that in that case we had a regulatory body that was separate from the companies producing the programmes?

The lessons are, of course, the same as relate to any regulation of broadcasting, particularly television—that is, that it must have a robust independence from Government but must be based on firm and clear principles set out in the founding legislation passed by this Parliament.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many people view their television licence fee as too high, especially in view of the amount of money given to the Prime Minister's friend in the form of salary and pension pay-off? The BBC might enjoy more public acceptance if it complied better with service requirements for subtitling for deaf people. What plans does he have, in the context of the licence fee, to improve subtitling on the BBC, which presently lags behind that provided by the ITV network?

The BBC retains the strong affection and respect of the vast majority of people. It is watched or listened to by well over 90 per cent. of the country every week. On the specific question about subtitling, I have already, as part of the announcement that I made to the House following the Government's response to the Davies report, set in place new and more stringent targets for the BBC to meet, especially under digital terrestrial broadcasting.

What steps the commissioners are taking in relation to rural communities to assist their tenants in the farming industry; and if he will make a statement. [128225]

Cases of extreme hardship are considered individually and we try to be as helpful as possible. For example, although the circumstances of individual tenants vary widely, recent rent review settlements have typically seen rent reductions in the region of 10 per cent. to 15 per cent.

Is my hon. Friend aware that representatives of the Church's tenant farmers have written to me? Why do not the Church Commissioners make it easy on themselves and give an across-the-board rent reduction to all their tenants?

I am always grateful for helpful suggestions and I consider that one of them. As I mentioned, the circumstances of individual tenants vary widely and it would not be an appropriate use of our funds if they benefited tenants whose financial situation did not warrant it.

I am a little perturbed by that reply from the hon. Gentleman. Given that the Church Commissioners own 128,000 acres of agricultural land, with several hundred tenants and no fewer than 340 farms; and given that the Church Commissioners' annual report refers to understanding of and support for tenant farmers in difficulty, can the hon. Gentleman at least confirm that no tenant farmer has been forced off his or her land on account of being unable to pay the dues?

I am always grateful for the direct question as well as the helpful one. I confirm to the hon. Gentleman that the Church Commissioners own 128,000 acres, including about 350 farms. His question is pertinent, but we do offer assistance when farmers wish to give up or retire from the land. That may involve buying a home to let to them or sharing with them a proportion of the proceeds arising from the sale. In relation to the hon. Gentleman's direct question, I shall be glad to provide a written answer.

Has my hon. Friend any idea of how many of the clergy in rural areas hunt? If he can establish the numbers, could he perhaps, through the Church Commissioners, remind those clergy who do hunt that their job is to save souls, not to slaughter wildlife?

I am glad to see my hon. Friend back from his perambulations in relation to the world cup. He did an extraordinary job of putting the case for the United Kingdom, and he is doing a less good job for the fox. We are conscious of the issue that he has raised—

Give him an answer then.

I am giving the answer. Perhaps my hon. Friend wishes to answer the question himself. We have studied the Burns report and we have no policy changes in mind. Our long-standing policy on fox hunting is that we allow our tenants to follow their consciences in deciding whether to allow hunts on the land that we let to them.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that more money would be available to help tenant farmers and the clergy at large if less were spent on bishops? Over the past 10 years, the proportion of Church Commissioners' money spent on bishops has risen from 5 per cent. to 10 per cent. How can that possibly be justified?

The bishops are much demeaned, and press reports in some of the Sunday newspapers were entirely inaccurate. We are trying to put the record straight. The question of bishops' costs is subject to a review, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that he will be the first to know when I have the results.

What investigations are being made into the ultimate use of redundant churches. [128226]

We normally impose covenants on a new owner restricting the use of the property to that approved, and prohibiting unauthorised architectural changes, disturbance of any human remains or memorials, and demolition. These covenants have continuing effect even if the building subsequently changes hands, and irrespective of how often that happens. They cannot be set aside by the Lands Tribunal and, indeed, can be varied only with our agreement.

I am grateful for that answer. I hope that my hon. Friend will convey it to the commissioners that we welcome the conditions that are placed on new owners with respect to church buildings; but will he ask them to consider introducing restrictive covenants on the future use of those buildings? There is disturbing evidence that some churches sold for community or social use, or to a registered landlord for conversion into low-rent accommodation, have been sold on subsequently and turned into showrooms, luxury flats, sales rooms of all sorts, bingo halls, and so on. Such functions bear no relationship to the often charitable donations that allowed a church to be built in the first place. Will he ask the commissioners to ensure that a church that is sold on retains for all time a socially useful purpose, and that it does not become a commercial benefit for those who were lucky enough to purchase it?

Well over half the 883 redundant churches that have been appropriated to new uses continue to serve their communities by providing facilities for worship and community activities, social and educational opportunities, or low-cost housing.

If the Church authorities want to close a church against the wishes of a congregation, is it the commissioners' policy to try their best to give priority to that congregation, thus allowing people time to put funds together so that they can continue to worship in their church?

Parishioners are always free to put their views direct to the diocese or the commissioners. Alternatively, they may seek to promote a debate in deanery synod or at diocesan level. It is hoped that parishes will be positive about new uses for former church buildings, which in many cases ensure that the buildings continue to play a role in their communities. It should be borne in mind that many church buildings are listed and cannot, realistically, be demolished.

What account is taken of the projected level of state pensions in calculating the projected level of clergy pensions. [128227]

I nearly said that I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave earlier.

I nearly said that I did not know my question was so difficult. However, although clergy are expected to have some vocation for their jobs, is it the Church's policy that the income and pensions of clergy should bear some relationship to average incomes and pensions in England? If not, why not?

The hon. Gentleman, as usual, puts a friendly, kindly and complex question. We are cognisant of the need to be sure that pensions and lump sums on retirement are related to what is happening in the outside world. The pensioner retirement lump sum is related to the national minimum stipend—the full basic rate of pension is two thirds of the previous year's figure for the national minimum, and the lump sum is three times the pension. The answer might be on the subtle side, but I hope that it is clear.

Might not the Church Commissioners obviate the need for paying pensions so early and thereby be able to pay a better lump sum on termination of service, and a higher pension, if clergy were able to serve beyond the normal retirement age of 70? Is it not the case that many parishes have to go without a parish priest when a perfectly good, able-bodied clergyman has to retire, perhaps against his will, at the arbitrary age of 70? The Church should be beyond ageism.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He makes a valid point, which I shall be glad to take back to the Church Commissioners.