Object.

What recent discussions he has had with (a) the Ministry of Defence and (b) National Assembly Secretaries regarding job losses in West Wales. [76057]

It is a great privilege for any Welsh MP to be Secretary of State for Wales, and I am especially delighted at having that honour. I pay tribute to my predecessor, now the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), who did an excellent job. He had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues at the Ministry of Defence and Members of the National Assembly for Wales.

I welcome the new Secretary of State to his place on behalf of Plaid Cymru and wish his predecessor well in taking on his new responsibilities, which are also of great importance. We look forward to the right hon. Gentleman making some jinking runs down the left wing in the next few Question Time sessions.

I draw the Secretary of State's attention to the imminent loss of jobs at Dewhirst in Cardigan and to the rundown in Ministry of Defence facilities at Aberporth. The loss of more than 400 jobs in one small market town over the next year could, at least temporarily, double the unemployment rate in the Cardigan travel-to-work area. Will he now redouble his efforts and those of his Departmentߞhis hon. Friend the Under-Secretary already knows about Aberporthߞto ensure that there are more constructive debates, especially with the Ministry of Defence and the Defence Diversification Agency, about new commercial opportunities using the excellent site and resources that we have at Aberporth?

Those are the first best wishes I have ever had from Plaid Cymru. I am not sure whether I should thank the hon. Gentleman for them, but I shall do so in the spirit of chivalry.

I acknowledge the hard work that the hon. Gentleman has done on behalf of his constituents in respect of the matter that he raises. I know that he is very concerned about it and so are we. However, plans are afoot to create new opportunities in his area, including, for example, plans for a technology park at Aberporth. Those plans are still proceeding and are capable of creating more than 200 well-paid high-quality jobs. In Ceredigion, unemployment is at an all-time low; the 2.5 per cent. claimant count is one of the lowest in Wales, thanks to this Labour Government.

I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on his promotion and I look forward to working with him very closely in the months and years to come. Is he aware that the unemployed claimants figure for Conwy in west Wales has fallen from 2,240 in September 1997 to 1,178 in September 2002? Does he agree that that is a considerable tribute to the Government and local business?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree that that reduction is a tribute to the sustained work that the Government have put into Wales in the past five years. We are now working in close partnership with the National Assembly for Wales to deliver Wales as a world class economy and as the top area for investment. Some 18,000 more jobs have been created in the past year and we intend to continue along that path.

It is great to see the right hon. Gentleman back in Wales. We have missed him and I wish him every success in his role in the run-up to when I take on the job myself in 2006. In the meantime, does he agree that one way of creating jobs, especially in north and west Wales, is the development of a strategic plan for airport development, perhaps along the lines of the consultation that was recently published for Wales? If so, is he willing to meet me and a delegation of interested groups that want a hub and spokes approach to Welsh airport development to see what we can do in working with the Assembly to achieve such a result?

I suspect that such generosity from all parts of the House is a one Question Time only experience. I remember well the hon. Gentleman's interest in regional airways and especially the route from Welshpool airport to Cardiff, which I was keen to promote when I was previously in the Welsh Office. Indeed, I took a flight with him from Welshpool, although I declined his invitation to pilot the plane. Given what happened to him a few weeks later, I am pleased that I did so. The matter is an important priority for Wales and I intend to speak to the First Minister about it, especially after the hon. Gentleman's intervention.

In my area of west Wales, there are potentially 360 temporary jobs at Powergen, which has stepped in to replace the ITV Digital losses. Will my right hon. Friend work with Assembly Ministers to try to make those jobs permanent? Does he acknowledge that the 1,000 jobs that were lost when ITV Digital went to the wall had as great an impact on west Wales as the collapse of Corus on east Wales? Will he do everything possible to ensure the same amount of investment in west Wales as in east Wales?

Indeed, as a south-west Wales Member of Parliament, I understand my hon. Friend's arguments. We shall continue to work hard with the National Assembly and as a Government to create the conditions for generating more jobs in west Wales. I am sure that I do not need to point out to my hon. Friend that unemployment in her constituency has fallen by almost half since we came to power in 1997.

What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the use of antisocial behaviour orders [76058]

What discussions he has had with the Home Secretary regarding the use of antisocial behaviour orders in Wales. [76065]

My right hon. Friend and I hold regular discussions with colleagues about matters that affect Wales. The antisocial behaviour order is a useful tool in dealing with antisocial and loutish behaviour, which causes considerable distress and upset in communities throughout Wales.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but is not it the case that many people throughout Wales feel threatened by rising crime? Given the low take-up of antisocial behaviour orders in Wales, and the fact that many people feel too threatened to testify against criminals in court, what are the Government doing to tackle such problems directly?

Antisocial behaviour orders have proved an effective tool because they have deterred those whose behaviour causes nuisance and upset in our communities.

Twelve.

The hon. Gentleman is having trouble with the maths. The figure is not 12, but considerably higher.

Several other options are available, including acceptable behaviour contracts, curfews, parenting orders, and on-the-spot fines, which are being piloted in north Wales. It is a bit rich of Conservative Members to talk about rising crime. It has fallen by 22 per cent. since the Government came to power, whereas the Conservative Government doubled it in 18 years.

My hon. Friend knows that, especially in mining communities in south Wales, the antisocial behaviour of one person or a single family can ruin the quality of life of a whole terraced street. It is surely distressing that South Wales police have been able to enforce only four antisocial behaviour orders so far. Is my hon. Friend worried that local authorities in Wales are not yet prepared to make sufficient use of antisocial behaviour orders? Will he congratulate South Wales police on appointing a full-time antisocial behaviour order officer, based in Pontypridd?

I certainly welcome the actions of South Wales police on the matter. I chaired a public meeting in my constituency a week ago, during which the issue was discussed. My advice to local authorities and the police service everywhere is to use antisocial behaviour orders when appropriate. Parliament has given the police and local authorities the power to take such action. The crimes that worry most of our constituents—vandalism, antisocial behaviour and petty intimidation—distort and damage the quality of life throughout Wales. Parliament and the Government have introduced measures whereby the police and local authorities can tackle such crimes; they must now use those resources.

The Minister says that he has given the police and local authorities power. However, the low number of antisocial behaviour orders that are used must worry him. Such an order is three times more likely to be issued in England than in Wales, yet the Minister has conceded that a few thugs and yobs cause misery throughout Wales. Is it not time to make life miserable for the thugs and yobs rather than the people of Wales? Will the Minister work with the police and local authorities to try to ensure clarity and ease of use for antisocial behaviour orders so that we can clamp down on the thugs and yobs?

I agree that we must make the procedure as easy as we can. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that there have been difficulties, and that legal advice has been taken about some antisocial behaviour orders. Once that first hurdle has been crossed, however, it will be much easier for the police and the local authorities to put the orders to the best use.

I told the hon. Gentleman when he raised this matter in July that the Government have laid the foundations for the most co-ordinated attack on crime in a generation. Billions are being invested in fighting crime, there are 4,500 more policemen on the beat than there were two years ago, and there are 600 more police officers in Wales than when we came to power five years ago. Only investment and reform will reduce the problem. The hon. Gentleman's party, both here and in Wales, opposes that investment and reform.

Does my hon. Friend welcome the new guidance that is shortly to be issued by the Home Office on antisocial behaviour orders? Will he ensure that he liaises closely with colleagues to roll out the orders and certificates throughout the whole of Wales?

Yes, I certainly welcome that initiative. My colleagues who represent Welsh constituencies may remember that I facilitated a meeting between all Welsh Members of Parliament and David A'Herne, the crime reduction director for Wales. I meet him on a regular basis, and I think that it would be productive to have further meetings with him so that we can understand the initiatives that are being taken by the crime reduction and disorder partnerships in Wales, and give them every support that we can. We had a debate on this in Westminster Hall only the other week. I urge colleagues everywhere to press their local authorities and the police service to use antisocial behaviour orders where appropriate.

What assessment he has made of public perception of the operation of devolved powers in Wales. [76059]

After three years, the devolution settlement for Wales is working well, with the Government and the National Assembly acting in close partnership for the benefit of Wales. Against that background, it is tremendous news that Cardiff is on the short list for the European capital of culture in 2008. Cardiff is Europe's youngest capital, and it is on the move towards becoming a world-class British city

I warmly welcome and encourage the diversity of culture, language and meaningful local government throughout the United Kingdom, but has the newly appointed Secretary of State for Wales studied the findings of a recent study by the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, which states that the overwhelming majority of Welsh voters think that the Assembly has made no difference—or, at best, little difference—to public services in the Principality?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is making new Tory policy on behalf of his Front Bench. Is he proposing to abolish the National Assembly for Wales? The fact is that the Assembly has been making a real difference, as we. the architects of devolution, always knew that it would. It has introduced free prescriptions for two successive years, and prescription charges in Wales are now lower than those in England. It has also provided free local bus travel for pensioners and disabled people throughout Wales, which is not provided elsewhere. It has introduced Assembly learning grants for people of limited means, funded six weeks' free home care, and seen record spending on health and education and a cut in unemployment as a result of the policies that Labour is pursuing in Wales. It is a Labour Assembly working together with a Labour Government.

When my right hon. Friend next goes to Brussels to attend the European convention, will he explain to Mr. Giscard d'Estaing what the principles of devolution are—bearing in mind, of course, that he should do so without being very rude? When he does so, will he point out that the draft European constitution shows that Giscard clearly has no idea about those principles?

I thank my right hon. Friend for that question. In fact, Britain's agenda in the convention on the future of Europe is to ensure that regions of nation states—such as Wales—get their voice heard right at the centre of decision making in Brussels, and that nation states form the bedrock of a union that is a partnership of nation states, not a Brussels superstate.

At the risk of damaging the right hon. Gentleman's political career, I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well in post—although not too well, of course.

I have recently received the leaked Government response to the report on the foot and mouth outbreak. Paragraph 1.29 states:

"The terms of the Welsh devolution settlement did not fully devolve animal health powers to the Assembly … The Government is in discussion with the Welsh Assembly Government on the case for devolving further powers to it to deal with outbreaks of animal disease in Wales."

Why, then, did the Government reject our amendments to the Animal Health Bill that were designed to do exactly that?

It was because Plaid Cymru's amendments usually have to be rejected as they do not achieve the objectives that the Government are trying to achieve for Wales. We are working closely with the National Assembly to benefit farmers and everyone in Wales. As the hon. Gentleman well knows, Plaid Cymru has never created any jobs in Wales, and has never done anything to generate better health services, better schools and a stronger economy in Wales.

Although working relations between Front-Bench Members in Cardiff and in Westminster were excellent throughout the occupation of the post of Secretary of State for Wales by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), could not Back Bench relations between Cardiff and Westminster be greatly improved? Following the vote last night, there will be more consideration of draft legislation. Would it not be a useful innovation to have Joint Committees of Back-Bench Assembly Members and Back-Bench Members of Parliament to discuss legislation for Wales?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's question. Obviously, we want to promote an increasing partnership between Members of Parliament and Assembly Members in Wales, and we shall continue to work on that. I shall consider my hon. Friend's ideas, but as he knows, pre-legislation scrutiny has been developing. We are working on that, and I would welcome ideas from him or any of my right hon. and hon. Friends.

If he will take steps to arrange for the devolution of powers to the National Assembly for Wales to enable free eye tests to be available in Wales. [76060]

Certain groups of people, including those under 16, those over 60 and those in receipt of income support and other benefits, are already entitled to free NHS eye tests in the United Kingdom. The power to make regulations relating to fee exemptions for eye tests has been devolved to the Assembly.

I thank the Minister for that answer. I congratulate the Secretary of State on spelling out so clearly the achievements of the Liberal Democratic-led coalition Government in Cardiff. They are a wonderful Government. In 1989, the Conservative Government introduced charges for eye services as part of their continuing dismemberment of the national health service. Will the Minister ensure that, in any health Bill that appears in the Queen's Speech, an enabling clause is included to enable the National Assembly to deliver free health care? Will the Secretary of State put his mouth where his Nye Bevan statue is?

The danger of being led by the Liberal Democrats is that they may lead us up a blind alley, as we have experienced in the past. Under the National Health Service Act 1977 and other regulations, certain groups are already exempt from charges for eye tests. Primary legislation would be required to abolition all fees for eye tests in England and Wales. As far as I am aware, the Government have no plans to do that.

I also take this opportunity to welcome the Secretary of State to his new position in the Cabinet. I pay tribute to his predecessor, who won respect from both sides of the House. I wish him well in his new job in Northern Ireland.

Does the Minister agree with me that the Welsh Assembly might be perceived as more relevant if it concentrated on issues over which it has some responsibility, such as agricultural collapse, the NHS waiting lists crisis, and the meltdown of manufacturing jobs, rather than debating issues for which it has no responsibility, such as Iraq and the middle east, which it debated yesterday?

I am not clear what that has to do with eye tests, although I note that yesterday's debate on Iraq was led by Plaid Cymru. Perhaps that party has a visual problem, as one would expect. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but the subjects to be discussed by the National Assembly are matters for the Assembly. The First Minister has made it absolutely clear that the Labour-led Administration in the National Assembly are concerned about the economy, jobs, health and education. Those are the issues that we will put across to the people of Wales, and which will give the Labour party a majority in the Assembly at the next election.

Order. The House is far too noisy at the moment. It is unfair to hon. Members. I call Mr. Nigel Evans.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are always hearing demands from other political parties that they want extension of powers for the Welsh Assembly. The Minister will know that Lord Richard is conducting his own Assembly-sponsored inquiry into the number of politicians in the Welsh Assembly and the powers that they currently have. We already know that the Secretary of State for Wales and the Foreign Secretary are not so keen on referendums. The Foreign Secretary has told the people of Gibraltar that he thinks their desire for a referendum rather eccentric; indeed, he may not even take heed of what they say. If Lord Richard recommends extending the power of the Welsh Assembly, will the Minister—given the slight and slim majority that voted in favour of devolution—give the people of Wales another say in whether there should be such an extension of powers?

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the Richard commission is matter for the National Assembly. The Assembly set up the commission, and it has agreed the criteria by which it will operate. The Government will await the commission's conclusions, which will doubtless be debated by the Assembly, and we will respond at the appropriate time.

When he next expects to meet representatives of industry and business to discuss ways in which his Department and the Welsh Executive can work together to alleviate the burden of regulation. [76062]

I plan regular meetings with a wide range of representatives of Welsh industry and business, as well as with Assembly colleagues, to discuss the conditions for industrial and business growth in Wales.

Is the Secretary of State aware that an increasing number of burdensome regulations are coming out of Brussels—including the agency employees directive and the equal treatment in work directive—that bear down disproportionately on small firms? Does he agree that a way must be found to alleviate this burden and to prevent the destruction of wealth creation and employment?

We are, of course, continuously working with business to effect conditions for the better, in which they can prosper. However, if the conditions in respect of regulation are as bad as the hon. Gentleman says, why is there record prosperity and more jobs being created in Wales and the rest of Britain, and why is the United Kingdom economy stronger than anybody can remember? The answer is that we have created the conditions in which businesses small and large can prosper.

What recent discussions he has had with the First Secretary about the future viability of small family farms in Wales. [76063]

The former Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), had regular meetings with the First Minister and agricultural matters were always high on the agenda. This will remain the case with my right hon. Friend the new Secretary of State.

According to the Welsh Assembly's own figures, last year the average livestock and dairy farm had an income of just over £100—way below the national minimum wage. No prosperity there for Welsh farmers. What proposals will the Secretary of State bring to discussions with the First Minister in order to address the extremely serious plight of Welsh agriculture, bearing in mind that the small family farm is the lynchpin of both tourism and the food industry in Wales?

I do not need any lectures from the hon. Lady about farming in Wales—there are a number of farmers in my own constituency. The key point [Interruption.] Perhaps Opposition Members are dividing up for the next leadership challenge. The key point for the viability of family farms is to keep them alive and growing, and to find ways in which we can help them. The National Assembly has put in place Farming Connect, which is working with farmers to find ways to improve the viability of their businesses, to implement new practices and to discover new initiatives. A range of funds has been put in place to help achieve that.

Also, I was pleased to help with the launching, at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show, of an event to help regain our export markets in mainland Europe for Welsh lamb and beef. Some £600,000 has been put in place to help promote Welsh meat products in mainland Europe. Those are the kind of serious initiatives that the Government and the Assembly are involved in to restore the prosperity of Welsh farming. We commend them, and it is a pity that the hon. Lady could not.

As someone who actually represents a Welsh constituency, and a rural one at that, may I tell my hon. Friend that agriculture in Wales has a prosperous future, thanks to the effective partnership between a Labour-led Assembly and the Labour Government?

That prosperous future is being delivered by a Labour-led Government and a Labour-led Administration in Cardiff. That has made the difference to the people of Wales. We should be confident and assured in our new Wales. Our economy is strong and our future is bright. It is a pity that the Opposition, who do not have any seats in Wales, have not stopped knocking Wales.

If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 30 October.

This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

My right hon. Friend will understand how important sure start, and other programmes designed to tackle the needs of some of the most vulnerable children in our society, have been in constituencies such as mine. However, many families in my area still have acute problems. Will my right hon. Friend spell out, especially on a cross-departmental basis, what he intends to do to tackle need in such families?

The issue that my hon. Friend raises is an important one for children at risk. It is true that the Government have implemented several measures—such as sure start, the new Connexions and the new help for communities through the new deal—but a Green Paper will be published early next year on the whole issue of children at risk, including how to ensure that they do not take up crime, and their family, mental health and educational problems. It is right that that is dealt with across government by a Cabinet sub-committee, which it will be, and also that we ensure that the proposals we make bear down on one of the main reasons for social exclusion in our society today.

The Labour manifesto said:

"We will not introduce top-up fees".

Does the Prime Minister still stand by that promise—yes or no?

Of course we stand by our manifesto.

If the Prime Minister stands by that specific promise in his manifesto, can he say why the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, when asked on Saturday to rule out top-up fees, did not rule them out? Should students believe the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister?

We of course stand by our manifesto, but I do not believe that the issue is top-up fees. The issue is how we ensure that our top universities get the freedom and the independence that they want, and how we make sure that as those universities develop they are able to guarantee access for poorer students. I assure the right hon. Gentleman not merely that we will stand by our manifesto commitment, but that when we publish our proposals for a review of higher education and finance, it will be against the background of increasing access for the poorest students in our society.

The right hon. Gentleman starts by pledging himself to his manifesto, and then he starts to fudge. Let me remind him of what the manifesto said:

"We will not introduce top-up fees and have legislated to prevent them".

However, on Saturday, the Secretary of State for Education and Skills was asked a direct question:

"Do you rule out top-up fees?"

He said, "No". The Prime Minister cannot have it both ways. Either he stands by his manifesto promise, or he stands by his Secretary of State. Which is it?

I am sorry to have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the Government stand together on that point. [HON. MEMBERS: " Answer!"] With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I have already answered. There is a serious issue about university finance for the future. There is an issue about freedom for universities, which is important, and an issue about how we ensure that British universities, which are among the best in the world, remain in the top 10 universities—and more—of the world.

However, there is also an issue about—[Interruption.]

Order. This is out of order. Hon. Members are out of order when they shout so loudly, Miss McIntosh.

There is also an issue about whether we increase the amount of investment in our higher education. I do not want to prejudge the proposals, but when we publish them I think that the right hon. Gentleman will see that they will make sure that our top universities are able to compete with the best in the world. I should have thought that he would agree with that. He will see also that the Government will increase the amount of money going into higher education so that, irrespective of their social background, our young people will get the university education that they need.

The Leader of the Opposition asked me a question, so let me ask him one. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is just to get him into practice. The Government are committed to increasing university education and the finance for it. Is the right hon. Gentleman now prepared to drop the commitment of the Conservative party, which has refused to match the additional spending? We believe that increased university education can be delivered only with the additional spending that we want.

I very much welcome the package of measures on fireworks announced by the Department of Trade and Industry, which includes spot fines for offenders who throw fireworks and cause alarm on the streets. However, under the current legislation on this matter—which the Government inherited—such fines can be applied only to people over 18. In Broxtowe, we have cracked the problem of pensioners throwing fireworks at each other. We need legislation to prevent teenagers from doing so. Will my right hon. Friend commit to new legislation to curb the scourge of fireworks?

Yes, is the short answer to that. We will introduce legislation, and we believe that there is also a role for fixed-penalty notices in such cases. Fixed-penalty notices are being piloted in three different areas of the country. They have been immensely successful. The only worry of the police forces that have worked with the orders is that they think that they do not extend to a wide enough category of offences. We are looking carefully at that in terms of the legislation coming up in the Queen's Speech.

The Prime Minister said a moment ago that the issue was not top-up fees. Is he saying that he rejects the—[Interruption.]

Order. I will not tolerate hon. Members shouting.

It must be election fever.

When the Prime Minister says that the issue is not top-up fees, is he saying that he rejects the argument that they would lead to a two-tier university system and deter potential students from lower-income backgrounds?

I agree entirely that any system that prevents people from going to university because of their family backgrounds and income is wholly wrong. That is why I suggest that, when he sees our proposals, the right hon. Gentleman will find that they are in large part about improving access for students from poorer backgrounds.

Will the Prime Minister clarify when the much awaited and delayed review of student finance will appear? When it does appear, will he address the concerns of more than 50 Back-Bench Labour Members who have signed a motion along the lines of my opening question? Will he take this opportunity to make it clear to everybody that he will not introduce university top-up fees as long as he is Prime Minister?

First, on the timing of the review, the fact that there is a new Secretary of State obviously means that there will be a further delay in publication of the review. However, I hope very much that it will be published in the next few months.

Secondly, I stand by the manifesto commitment, but there are serious and real issues that the review must tackle. We cannot allow to continue a situation in which our top universities are not able to compete in what is effectively a world market today. I agree that any solution to this problem is extremely difficult, but it would be irresponsible of any Government, faced with this situation, not to ensure both that we give the universities the freedom that they need to compete and that there is better access for students from poorer backgrounds.

Obviously, I cannot prejudge the outcome of the review, but I hope that when we come up with those proposals the House will consider them sensibly. People who disagree with them can make some proposals of their own. However, it would be wrong of the right hon. Gentleman and the Conservative party to pretend that there is not a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is no contest in the bid for the European capital of culture? The winner is the city of Birmingham, with its fusion of culture and diversity, where more than 20 languages are spoken, with its festivals of Eid, Diwali, Baisakhi and the Caribbean carnival, and where, of course, Christmas is celebrated. We have, to name but a few, a symphony orchestra, the Council of Faiths, the School of Jewellery, and we have more canals than Venice—

Order. The hon. Gentleman can praise his native city some other time.

Does the Prime Minister accept that unless this country joins the euro, Germany and France will continue to dominate, he will have more summits cancelled, and this country will lack influence?

No, I think that we should join the euro if the economic tests are met, and that is the Government's position. If we joined the single currency irrespective of the economic conditions, it would be a mistake. I had not appreciated that that was the position of the Liberal Democrats.

indicated dissent.

Well, the leader of the Liberal Democrats says that it is not, in which case he is in exactly the same position as me. As for the disagreement with France, it is important that we argue our corner at these summits. Personally, I think that to have ruled out common agricultural reform would have been a mistake—a mistake for Britain and a mistake for Europe

The Prime Minister will know that the United States Secretary of State, Colin Powell, has said that the United Nations must take a decision on Iraq this week. Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether he would support the United States if it chose to conduct a war on Iraq without UN sanction, and whether the House would have the opportunity to vote on that matter and decide whether it would go down the same path?

I do not think that Colin Powell said that the resolution had to be passed this week, but of course it is important that we get a new UN resolution—that is what we are working for at the moment. It is best not to speculate on what might happen if we do not, because I believe that we will get one and it is important that we do. As for debates in this House, I refer my hon. Friend to what my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has said on the issue— obviously, I stand by that entirely. I am sure that the House will have the fullest possible chance to debate that issue.

Following the question from the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson), will the Prime Minister tell the House and the country what moral difference he sees between those UN resolutions that bind Israel and Palestine and those that bind Iraq, and how that judgment will affect his decision making in the forthcoming months?

I will tell the hon. Gentleman what the difference is. First, it is important to point out that the resolutions in respect of Israel and the middle east peace process apply to all the parties in the middle east, and to recognise Israel's difficulty when it is being met by terrorist acts from within the occupied territories. Secondly, I hope that he will realise, as I do, that United Nations resolutions in respect of Iraq—specifically, on weapons of mass destruction—should be obeyed. If he does agree with me on that, he must obviously face up to the issue, which is what we should do if Saddam Hussein refuses to abide by those resolutions.

To revert to the middle east peace process, having said that about UN resolutions in respect of Israel, I still believe that those resolutions should be obeyed in full; and I very much hope and believe that it is essential, not just for the middle east but for the wider world, that a peace process be restarted there as quickly as possible.

The Prime Minister will be aware that today is national breast cancer awareness day. Will he join me in commending the efforts of the organisers of the "walk for a cure" event in Falkirk, which raises funds locally for breast cancer charities, and in congratulating the national breast cancer charities, such as Breakthrough Breast Cancer, for their efforts in this area, which are so important to so many of our constituents?

I congratulate all those who have been involved in the breast cancer awareness campaign. As my hon. Friend knows, 97 per cent. of patients with suspected cancer are referred to a consultant within two weeks. There has been a significant increase in the number of people in the national health service working on those issues and, although we obviously still have a long distance to go, there is no doubt at all that the treatment of cancer in this country is improving.

I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question about CARATs. He will be aware that the Counselling, Assessment, Referral, Advice and Throughcare scheme is an extremely successful prison-based programme, designed to break the link between the prisoner and drugs prior to release, but that not all prisoners who want to take part in the programme can do so. Will he look at the question, from within the existing prison budget, to ensure that adequate resources are available to enable all prisoners who want to take up CARATs programme to benefit from its outcomes?

That is a very good point. It is important that we extend the programme throughout the prison system. Sometimes that is difficult, as there is obviously a limit on the amount of resources available, but the right hon. Gentleman will know that, over the past few years that the programmes have been extended, there has been far more focus on both drug abuse within prisons and getting offenders off drugs and therefore less liable to reoffend when they leave prison. The new national treatment agency for drug abuse is working with the police, the prison authorities and others in order to ensure that we have the best possible programmes, and not only within the prison system.

What is important is that, at least in the highest crime areas. we look at—as the Home Secretary is doing—how we can ensure that we end the absurd situation when someone can be arrested for an offence, tested positively for drugs and then put back out on the street without even the prospect of proper drug treatment. We need to explore that issue not only within the prison system but outside as well.

Could I ask the Prime Minister to tell us exactly how rude he was to Mr. Chirac? Did he remind the French President that if he was not in the Elysée he would almost certainly be in jail? Could I urge my right hon. Friend to be as rude as it takes to get Europe to sort out the idiocy of the common agricultural policy, which British consumers are paying for with their wallets and which the poor of the world are paying for with their lives?

On the first point, I have to say that, no, I did not say that to the President. If that is a bid for a diplomatic post, it is certainly one of the more unusual ones.

My hon. Friend's point on the CAP is important. That was why it was important to preserve the prospect of real and detailed agricultural reform. I wholly understand why the French position is different, but this is not just a British priority; common agricultural reform is important for Europe. We have managed to reduce the amount that we spend on agriculture from 60 to 45 per cent., but truthfully, if we look at the money that we are spending in the European Union, we could spend it better if so much was not still being spent on the common agricultural policy, often very inefficiently—even for the farming industry.

The other issue, which I think my hon. Friend implies, is that it is extremely important to ensure that at the world trade round we make a good offer from the European Union for the developing world. Those are the poorest countries in the world, they desperately need access to our markets, and we should not let them down.

Have 24-hour waits in accident and emergency departments been eliminated?

No, they have not been eliminated but they are significantly down, I think is the answer.

The Prime Minister should check what his Department of Health is saying. It states categorically that the 24-hour waits have now been eliminated, so clearly the Prime Minister does not even believe what his Department is saying. But this week the BMA said that one in five A and E departments actually has patients waiting for more than 24 hours. Whom should we believe—the Government or the doctors?

What the Government said was that the very long waits for admissions—more than 12 hours—are down, and it is also correct that, I think, just under 80 per cent. of patients are seen within four hours, but it is right to say that there are still far too many too long waits in accident and emergency. I would accept that entirely, but the BMA proposals for changing the situation are threefold: first, that we should have more consultants in A and E; secondly, that we should have more nurses; and thirdly, that we should have more beds. As a result of the additional funding in the health service, there are now 100 more consultants; there are 600 more nurses just in the last year alone; and there are 700 more acute beds. The solution to the problem, therefore, is to put more money into the health service, not less. That is why, with very great respect, we can take criticism from the BMA over this, but the one person who is not in a position to criticise is the right hon. Gentleman, because he is in favour of scrapping the investment that we need.

The Prime Minister is all over the place. His own Department said on its website today that waits of more than 24 hours have been eliminated, so they either have or they have not. If they have not, his Department should not go putting it up on its website. The reality is that, as the Prime Minister must know, two thirds of A and E consultants say that the health service is not getting better—in fact, it is getting worse. Whom should we believe—the spin doctors or the real doctors?

Actually, if the right hon. Gentleman looks at the BMA report, it is indeed true that it says that more than a third of the consultants say that things are getting worse and that just over a quarter say that they are getting better. However, as I told him a moment or two ago, they also point out that there are now some 400,000 more people being treated in accident and emergency departments; they therefore say that the Government's record means that we have to put more investment into the beds, the doctors and the nurses. I repeat: whatever the solution to the problem to which they rightly draw attention, the solution is not to cut the funding that they need.

Just before the summer recess, the Government agreed to pay compensation to the families of young Kenyan tribes people killed or maimed by British munitions at the Dol Dol and Archer's Post army training grounds in Kenya. I congratulate the Government on making that settlement, rather than taking those people through the courts, but can the Prime Minister now assure me that clean-up procedures have been put in place so that there will be no more victims of British munitions either in Kenya or elsewhere in the developing world?

We have done what we can to make sure that there is proper regulation regarding the control, conduct and supervision of people while using Army ranges. My hon. Friend, who has taken a deep interest in this issue, will also know that we have settled some 200 cases. It is important that we do more, and we are doing more. The Ministry of Defence is now considering the remaining cases, and I hope very much that this situation will be cleared up, not just to his satisfaction, but, more importantly, to the satisfaction of the families of those who are serving in our armed forces.

Will the Prime Minister find time today to have a look at the case of my constituent, Mr. Frederick Matthews of Heacham, who is suffering great pain and inconvenience as the result of a haemorrhage in the pupil of his left eye? There is a clinically proven treatment and his doctor wants to treat him, but the local hospital has said that the NHS will only fund it if he goes blind in the other eye. Is that not madness? Is it not very hard on my constituent? Will he look at the policy affecting Mr. Matthews and hundreds of other people? Does he recall that when he came to see us during the election campaign he said that, under Labour, the NHS would get better? Is he surprised that Mr. Matthews does not now believe him?

On the particular case of the hon. Gentleman's constituent, of course, I cannot comment, but I am perfectly happy to look into it. However, on the general point about the national health service, of course the Conservatives will say that it is getting worse. [Interruption.] Of course they will, because they are against it. They want to use whatever problems there are in the national health service to say that it is a flawed idea whose time has gone.

What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is yes, of course there are still big problems in the health service, but massive investment and improvement are also going on. The vast majority of people get good treatment in our national health service, and it is an insult to doctors, nurses and those dedicated staff of the health service always to pretend that everything is going badly. There are problems—we are working on them—but the national health service is actually improving.

My right hon. Friend will be aware that the Budget 2000 crackdown on big-time smugglers has reduced cross-channel smuggling by 76 per cent., and has cut associated crime. Will he join me in applauding the hardworking Customs officers at Dover and condemning those parts of the press that seek to undermine their efforts?

I certainly welcome the work that Customs officers do in my hon. Friend's constituency and other constituencies up and down the country. They often work under very difficult and trying circumstances. It is important, of course, that we make sure that they operate under sensible rules, which is why the Treasury announced changes the other day. Let me say to my hon. Friend—and through him to his constituents—that we applaud the hard work done by Customs officers, which is necessary because of the problems of smuggling.

What message would the Prime Minister give to farmers in my constituency who have seen their income substantially decline since he has been in office? Is that decline caused by his growing influence in Europe?

It is, of course, correct that farm incomes have dropped, but not just in this country. It is also the case that many farmers face severe difficulties. They will not be helped out of those difficulties, however, by the hon. Gentleman pretending that somehow there was an easy and magical solution. They have been hit by two things: by BSE and foot and mouth disease, and by the fact that world commodity prices have dropped. Let us remember that we are putting more money into the farming industry than into the rest of British industry put together, and the only way in which to provide a viable future for farming is to continue putting in that money and support, and to try to make sure that agriculture changes over time. That is why the best way forward is to implement the proposals of the Curry commission, which we set up, on the future of farming. It will not help any part of the farming community, however, to pretend that a magic wand can be waved and all its problems will disappear.

I am normally reluctant to raise the issue of antisocial behaviour, but it is a subject of which I have some knowledge. In view of the success of the four area trials of on-the-spot fines for hooligans, does the Prime Minister plan to extend the scheme throughout the country, including my constituency?

We certainly have plans to roll out the scheme across the country. I am sorry if the Conservative party is opposed to those plans—I think that it is—as it would be making a very big mistake. The plans will be enormously popular with the police and with local communities, because the essence of tackling antisocial behaviour is to provide the police with a simple way of enforcing the law and penalising those who break it. The whole purpose of fixed-penalty notices is to get round some of the bureaucracy associated with the court processes and so on, and to provide a simple and easy remedy for the police to use. Not only do we believe that the scheme should be rolled out across the country, but we are looking at how the powers and penalties can be extended, as the principle applies to dealing with antisocial behaviour in many forms.

On the eve of the urban summit, does the Prime Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that Britain's building industry is

"the most inefficient in the world"

and a major cause of Britain's affordable housing crisis? Even if he does share that extreme view, should not his Government take more blame for five years of ineffective housing policy rather than scapegoating others for Britain's affordable housing crisis?

We are putting an immense amount of money into housing, as the hon. Gentleman knows. The important thing is that the building industry faces real challenges in relation to skills and the use of land. If he listened to the statement that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made before the summer break, I hope that he would realise that the answers to the housing issue lie in many different facets. One of them is to make sure that our building industry and the private construction industry build the houses that are needed in particular parts of the country, such as the south-east. I hope very much that he will support that policy rather than oppose it.

Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister want higher education to get its fair share of the 6 per cent. growth money allocated to the Department for Education and Skills?

Of course I do. That is why it is important to realise that, as part of the proposals, we will put additional sums of money into higher education. That is the position of this Government, who want to invest in higher education. The Conservative party is, of course committed to cutting the education money that we have got. [Interruption.] Oh, yes: it is committed to cutting education money, not just for universities but for schools as well.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In reply to a question from me, the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy), said that

"extensive consultation … showed almost universal support for the abolition of the 11-plus Transfer Tests"—

in Northern Ireland—

"and a predominant view that academic selection should be ended".—[Official Report, 28 October 2002; Vol. 391, c. 513W.]

I regret to say that, by providing that answer, the hon. Lady misled the House. I have already advised her office of my intention to raise the matter today.

If you, Mr. Speaker, were to read the Department of Education report on the responses to the consultation, you would find that only 57 per cent. of 200,551 household responses received by the Department supported the abolition of the transfer test, with 32 per cent. disagreeing and 12 per cent. undecided. Fifty-seven per cent. can hardly be regarded as, to use the Minister's words, "almost universal support".

On the question of whether academic selection should he ended, according to the Department of Education report—

Order. I get the feeling that the hon. Gentleman is making a speech. The Minister will have heard his points, but they are not a matter for the Chair.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The evidence that I have indicates that the House has been misled. I request that you, sir, invite the Minister to come to the House to make an apology and clarify her interpretation of very clear results.

I have no such powers, but the Minister will be able to take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have you noticed that, because of the rescheduling of the provisional business that was due for this afternoon—the debate on home defence—tomorrow there will be a debate on home defence in the House and a debate on the foreign policy aspects of terrorism in Westminster Hall? There is, as you know, great concern among hon. Members on both sides of the House about those two closely interrelated topics. Is there anything that you can do to advise those who prepare the business of the House that in future such a clash should be avoided?

No, but the hon. Gentleman can certainly approach the Leader of the House.

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to reinstate a patient's right to choose the hospital in which to receive treatment within the National Health Service.

I want to restore choice not just because it is a good thing in itself and not just because patients increasingly want to exercise choice over where, when, how and by whom they are treated, but above all because choice is the dynamic force driving up improvements in quality and efficiency. In every service where the user has a choice between alternative suppliers, the less-good, lower-quality supplier has to emulate the quality of the best or lose users and revenue.

That is why there is a continual dynamic for improvement in those services. Sadly, that dynamic no longer exists, to the extent that it ever did, within the national health service. Even though the Government are putting 30 per cent. more in real terms into the health service, it has not resulted in commensurate improvements in quality or quantity of care. Scarcely any more in-patient operations are carried out now than in 1997 and there are scarcely any shorter waiting lists now than in 1997. In addition, we have more serious problems, which are growing more rapidly, of infections and quality of care in our hospitals than on the continent.

The Bill proposes to reinstate the right to choose the hospital in which people are treated. I say "reinstate" because the right to choose the hospital always existed within the NHS; sadly, it was unintentionally restricted by measures, including those introduced by my Government. Unforgivably, however, the last rights of choice were eliminated by circular 117, which this Government introduced in 1999. Since then, any patient must go to the hospital where their local national health service bureaucracy is committed and contracted to send them. The director of the College of Health said that as a result of that circular there is less choice in the health service now than has ever been the case in its history.

Patients can no longer choose to go to a hospital with shorter waiting lists or waiting times. Constituents of my hon. Friend who represents the Southampton area and my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) have to wait 16 weeks and 24 weeks respectively for radiotherapy. They cannot choose to go to Bournemouth, where there are almost no waiting lists. Patients cannot choose to go to a hospital where there are better health outcomes. Patients in my constituency are contracted to be sent to a hospital that had the worst outcomes for hip operations. One in six of those treated for an emergency hip operation died within 30 days of the operation and could not choose to go elsewhere.

It is not possible for a patient to choose to go to a hospital that he believes is cleaner or has fewer cases of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus—M RSA—infection. Sadly, the sixth-worst hospital for that is near my constituency. Patients cannot choose to go to a hospital near their relatives, even if it treated them when they lived in the area, or to a hospital with single-sex wards.

The Bill would repeal that circular and restore the right of patients to choose which NHS hospital they attend. Patients need more than that, however. They need information, especially on waiting lists, so that they can make informed choices. That information is collected by the College of Health on the national waiting list helpline, but the Government refuse to publish it. I agree with the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) that it should be published and available in every hospital waiting room and on a website, which he categorises as easyop.com.

Information about health outcomes should be available, preferably on the basis of the pre-operative condition of the patient. We should allow for that variable, as they do in the United States, so that people can assess the success rate of different hospitals and different surgeons. Information about infection rates should be more readily available. Although that is now being made available, until recently my health service did not discuss or report it at its management meetings.

We also need a diversity of suppliers. We need genuinely independent trusts that are not micromanaged centrally with the objective of uniformity. We also need other not-for-profit hospitals, such as charitable hospitals, and new enterprises, although they would need to meet the cost levels set by the NHS. Above all, taxpayers' money must follow patient choice. That empowers choice by rewarding and reimbursing hospitals that treat patients and ensures that the successful and popular hospitals do not run through their budgets before the end of the financial year and have to close, as was the case.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Conservative party on sending the health team to other countries to see their successful health services. I am sure that the common feature that they will have discovered is that patients have choice; they have the knowledge to make an informed choice; there is diversity of supply; and patients' money, the taxpayers' money, follows their choice.

When I published these ideas some while ago in an excellent booklet, available from my website for free or from Demos for £6.95, the Government ridiculed them and said that if patients were given back choice, they would be racing up and down the country looking for better hospitals or shorter waiting lists. Now, of course, the Government are sending patients racing around the Mediterranean looking for the same things.

The Government published a White Paper on involving patients in health care, which spoke of committees and consultation but did not even mention the word "choice" or the idea of giving choice to patients. Now, belatedly, the Government are trying to adopt the rhetoric of choice. I would welcome that if it involved any substantial change, but so far they have simply said that if people are still alive after they have been on the waiting list for a heart operation for six months, they will be allowed to choose another hospital that can do the operation more quickly than the one whose waiting list they are on.

The Government have created a massive new bureaucracy to supervise that. A whole new tier of officials will mediate between a patient's GP and consultant and then talk to the patient to decide whether he or she is suitable to be given choice and, if so, where and how it can be exercised. The individual and his or her GP no longer make that choice.

My Bill will restore choice and give patients the information to make an informed choice. There will be diversity from which they can make their choice, and taxpayers' money will follow patients' choice. Choice is not a panacea; on its own it is not a sufficient remedy, but it is essential if we are to have a reformed health service that takes advantage of the extra resources available to it by improved quality of care. I commend my Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Peter Lilley, Sir Patrick Cormack, Mr. Frank Field, Alistair Burt, Mr. Christopher Chope, Mr. Michael Portillo, Mr. Andrew Tyrie, Mr. Gregory Barker, Mr. David Cameron, Mr. George Osborne, Mr. Mark Prisk and Mr. Andrew Turner.

I beg to move,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2002, which was laid before the House on 28th October, be approved.

The Terrorism Act 2000 came into force on 19 February last year. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), the Foreign Secretary, laid orders for proscription on 21 groups on 28 February last year which were approved by this House. Since then no other groups have been proscribed, but a close watch is being kept on groups, including those looking to reconfigure and rename themselves.

I want first to state that there is no party political difference between us this afternoon, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), the shadow Home Secretary, for indicating to me issues that may prove appropriate for Privy Council briefings. I need to say now that there is information to do with the time for which particular groups have been monitored and the knowledge about their meetings and base which we would be happy to offer on Privy Council terms. Obviously, there will be questions about whether that is the earliest point at which groups may be proscribed, and I am happy to deal with them. Having moved the motion on proscription, I hope that the whole House will back us.

I do not intend to repeat the long discourse that we had a year ago, or even the statements made since the attack in Bali, as Members are well aware of events, including the escalation that has changed the position radically, as well as the behaviour since 11 September 2001 of al-Qaeda and its offshoots—its network of cells and the loose confederation of those who are not part of its central core but who are prepared to support and help it. We must respond, monitor what groups are doing, how they relate to one another, and how their support systems, including funding, work.

People's heightened awareness since 11 September last year has been reinforced by the tragic deaths in Bali and other events. However, security and intelligence services of countries across the world have been able to intervene and are on record as having done so to save communities from threat. It is in the light of those attempts, not just the events that led to loss of life, that we have moved the motion this afternoon. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport today answered a parliamentary question about a review that he and I set in motion—we asked Sir John Wheeler to investigate security levels at our airports and the way in which that related to wider security issues. We obviously take that review seriously and its general conclusions have been published this afternoon. Again. I would be happy for Opposition Members to see more detailed information on Privy Council terms. The House would expect us to act immediately on Sir John's recommendations on security tightening, and we have done so. I and my right hon. Friend are grateful for his work. We owe him a debt of gratitude.

I am grateful to the Home Secretary, and listened carefully to what he said about security at our airports. I would wish to share information on Privy Council terms, but unfortunately I am not a Privy Councillor. However, I am concerned about our seaports, which are largely unpoliced, with the exception of my port—Tilbury—Felixstowe, and Tees and Hartlepool. Many of us are deeply concerned that our seaports are porous—I think that that is the word—as people are coming in. The immigration authorities, Customs and Excise and the police force are simply not there to provide the necessary cover. I hope that the Home Secretary will reconsider, along with my right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary, creating a national dedicated police force for our seaports.

Following the work on airport security and its relationship to air travel from airports across Europe and the world—an important factor in making our population and people travelling to our country secure from the threat of terrorism—the Transport Secretary has already told me that he is taking a close look at strengthening the present arrangements spelt out by my hon. Friend, which consist of various forms of policing, including port health and environmental health programmes. That has been drawn forcibly to my attention.

We are also interested in putting in place technological surveillance equipment to tackle a wider threat—not simply people entering the country, but materials as well. I make that clear in case anyone who is contemplating terrorist acts or trying to get material into the country is under the misapprehension that we are not taking the necessary steps. We also want to stress, as Sir John did, the importance of people working in and around airports and our ports being vigilant—not merely those who are on policing duties but those going about their usual business.

The report that we are putting in the Library this afternoon demonstrates that we need to tighten all forms of security, not just the obvious ones. It also behoves us to ensure that the public exercise the greatest vigilance. We need to keep our routes in and out of the country open and free. That is critical for the free movement of people, goods and commerce. It is critical that we are not damaged economically or socially, and that those who are determined to perpetrate terrorism do not get an opportunity to disrupt the lives of the nation.

Does the Home Secretary agree that those who have hitherto enjoyed freedom and rights of way through our ports nationally must now accept that, in the interests of security, rights of way may be re-routed?

Wherever there is perceived to be a credible threat, steps will be taken to ensure that people are re-routed or that diversions are put in place to secure the well-being of the public. If there is a specific concern that the hon. Gentleman would like to draw to my attention or to that of my right hon. Friends, I shall be happy to take it forward.

My right hon. and hon. Friends will support the order. I hope that that is a helpful early indication, and I hope that the Home Secretary will feel able, at the appropriate time, to include my right hon. Friends, or me, or an appropriate combination, in the briefings. That would be appreciated, and it would be helpful.

Has the right hon. Gentleman further considered the Select Committee's recommendation of a common border force at our airports and seaports? Given the frequency of concern about security at our ports over the past two years, that seems a strong case well made that merits further attention from the Government.

None of us would dismiss thoughtful contributions on how best to achieve that. There are wider issues of co-operation between the various law enforcement and security agencies, which the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friends and I are examining. I am yet to be convinced that the establishment of another force with another bureaucracy is the right way of achieving the objective. That has a wider read-over to issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised with me before in relation to a European joint border force. Although I have moved policy on to indicating that we would contribute to that, we are not in favour of some centralised administration that would undoubtedly lead to more people being employed in managing it than in securing our borders. I am happy to continue exploring the best way of achieving the common goal.

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's indication of support. We need to ensure that we are open to scrutiny and that we will answer necessary questions. I have indicated to him and his colleagues over the past 15 months a willingness to ensure that we share the maximum number of facts and the greatest amount of information, and I will continue to do that.

Today, I am asking the House to proscribe a further four organisations, in addition to the 21 that I mentioned earlier. Those four have discernible links with al-Qaeda. Following a number of recent attacks, including the one in Bali, international co-operation and the coherence of evidence and information from security and intelligence services across the world have indicated those links more clearly. That is primarily the answer to the question why we have not banned at least one of those groups, Jemaah Islamiyah, before. The evidence base, the links that have been established, the information from security services, and information that has emerged from other events over the past few months have provided a conclusive case that they are involved with and are part of the broader federal network of al-Qaeda. Of course, evidence has emerged since the tragedy in relation to suspected direct links with the bombing.

Since 11 September last year, we have been working closely with all those seeking to fight terrorism. We have learned even more from the bombing in Bali and want to ensure a sustained and coherent approach. That is why we are linking the four proscribed groups together. Last Thursday, on the back of action taken through the United Nations, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I issued further guidance and took further measures in relation to the freezing of assets and the movement of funds. The Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 will clearly help us in that regard and make it easier to monitor and take action, and we will take whatever further steps are necessary.

The proscribed organisations fall within criteria of which it will be useful to remind hon. Members. They are specified in the definition of terrorism provided in the Terrorism Act 2000, which refers to those who commit or participate in acts of terrorism, prepare for terrorism, promote or encourage it or are otherwise concerned with it. The factors spelt out alongside the original decision a year last February were as follows: consideration by the Home Secretary of the nature and scale of the organisations; the specific threat to the UK or British nationals overseas; and the presence and support of the international community. It is the support of the international community and the threat to our citizens overseas that we have weighed very carefully indeed, along with other factors, in proscribing the four groups.

The proscribed groups are Jemaah Islamiyah, or JI, with which we are familiar in relation to allegations made about the bombing in Bali; Abu Sayyaf, a group based in the Philippines; the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which has links with those whom we believe were involved in the hostage taking in Moscow; and Asbat Al-Ansar, which is based in Lebanon. Attached to the order is an explanatory memorandum that has been available to hon. Members, setting out the reasons why those groups meet the specific criteria and match he factors to which I referred.

Proscription sends a signal. It allows us to deal swiftly with those associated with groups that are committing terror across the world, whether they are members of them or provide support to them. It provides a coherent approach involving the UN and other international partners in seeking to attack and undermine terrorism, and it is also part of the mutuality and solidarity that we have expressed in the House on a number of occasions.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that many of us take the view that such action as has been taken, as well as that being taken today, has been long overdue? He may recall that I asked him and his predecessor in the Select Committee on Home Affairs about allegations made over the years by countries such as Egypt that Britain has been a safe haven for terrorism. I know that successive Home Secretaries have denied that that is the case. Our country should not be a safe haven of any kind for those who aim to engage in terrorism and destroy lives, as has happened so recently in Indonesia.

I agree with my hon. Friend. Whenever evidence is presented, my colleagues and I will act. That is why we are taking action this afternoon; it is also why, after passing the Terrorism Act 2000 and the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, we need to be not only vigilant but prepared to act whenever necessary. I respect the points that hon. Members have made.

As I said previously, we need evidence. It would therefore be helpful if, when countries or their agencies make allegations, instead of doing so through newspapers, they presented us with evidence. It would also be helpful if newspapers checked the credibility of the allegations. Their publication creates an atmosphere of fear and undermines the confidence and morale of those who are at the cutting edge of our actions to combat terrorism. I repeat that I have every confidence in this country's security and intelligence services, which do a first-class job. Long may that continue. Like us they are learning all the time.

On the speed in making decisions about specific groups, I stress to the shadow Home Secretary that there is no special wisdom in government. We take the evidence that is presented, and respond at speed when people are prepared to provide verifiable evidence. If hon. Members from any party have evidence. I am happy to consider it. Some hon. Members present evidence constantly, and we check the difference between the loud-mouthed extremists who endeavour to provide diversion but, although undoubted irritants. require evidence to show that they are a threat, and those who do not clearly spell out their views or identity precisely because they constitute a greater threat and need to be taken more seriously.

In our democracy, a right of appeal exists. An appeal is made first to the Home Secretary. If he confirms the banning order, a further appeal can be made to the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission. I do not imagine that many people outside the House have heard of it, but it exists.

Does the Home Secretary accept that the commission approaches the matter on the basis of the principles that apply to judicial review and therefore does not review the merits of the original decision?

The commission has to review whether the criteria and the definitions that were debated in 2000, and when the first batch of proscriptions were made in February 2001 apply, and whether the Government and the Home Secretary properly exercised their power. That is fair, given the nature of the threat. We take time to ensure that we accumulate evidence. That is why we did not jump to proscribe only one organisation in the immediate aftermath of Bali. We wanted to have some coherence about the network of links with al-Qaeda, the evidence that could be adduced and the international position.

We want to secure the confidence of the community and the backing of the House, and ensure that we use intelligence to tackle such groups and all their aspects, including support, fundraising, links abroad, thus making it more difficult for al-Qaeda to wreak terrorism across the globe. We take action irrespective of the creed or nationality of those involved. As hon. Members will realise, a variety of groups, which are based in different parts of the world, are linked in a loose federation to those who are determined to take away our freedom and well-being. I am glad that we appear to have the House's wholehearted support in tackling those cells and that network.

The Opposition welcome and support the measures that the Home Secretary has taken today. I hope that nothing that I ask will be perceived as detracting from that support. I am also aware that the Home Secretary, and any occupant of that office, bears a heavy burden, and that it is difficult to discern reality from phantoms, or to know how best to proceed even when reality appears to have a certain shape. I am conscious that it is difficult—indeed, impossible, in some cases—to disclose the basis for some of the decisions that are made. That is a natural feature of this area of our national life.

Within the limits of those constraints, I have given the Home Secretary notice that I want to probe the question of the timetable that led to the proscription of Jemaah Islamiyah today rather than at an earlier date. I wish to do so not because that has any practical import today—after all, the Home Secretary has now proscribed it, and we welcome that—but because it will help to illuminate whether the system as a whole and the legislative framework that backs it are working as well as we would mutually hope.

I am extremely conscious that it is of great importance—as I hope the Home Secretary and the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats will agree—that we continue to have a framework within which there is a system of appeal, to which the Home Secretary rightly referred. Of course, if there is such a system, it will be necessary for the Home Office to accumulate reasonably robust evidence—albeit disclosable only in camera—before making a decision to proscribe, because otherwise the commission would overturn the proscription. I utterly accept, therefore, that there will inevitably be delays that would not occur if we were operating a system of proscription by fiat without appeal. I would be the last person in the House to suggest such a system. Indeed, the Home Secretary and I have had debates in the past on other matters in which I have been keen to strengthen the system of appeal, so I recognise the obligation on us to accept that there will be delays as a result of the appeals system.

Nevertheless, the question arises as to why this has taken so long, and I want to ask five particular questions about that. First, how long has it been known, or guessed, by the security services that there was a link between Jemaah Islamiyah and al-Qaeda? Secondly, was it known that JI was active in Thailand at the beginning of the year, as has been reported? I do not know whether those reports are accurate; I am merely asking whether that was known. Thirdly, how long has it been known that the Indonesian authorities believed that JI was connected with the terrible events that took place there at Christmas 2000? Fourthly, what liaison was there between our agencies and the Singaporean authorities when or after the Singaporean authorities detained a considerable number of suspected JI agents—13, I think—in December 2001? Finally, when the Government of the Philippines detained nine people—in May 2002, I think—alleged to be connected to JI, did that Government inform our security apparatus of the basis on which they were proceeding? If so, why did that not lead to proscription at that stage?

I re-emphasise that none of this had an unhappy result for Britain. There is no reason to suppose, for example, that the bombings in Bali would have been less likely to occur had proscription occurred earlier. I do not believe that any adverse practical consequences have flowed from the delay, and the Home Secretary has now taken the step that needed to be taken. No blame attaches either to him, to the Home Office or to the security services. I am grateful to him for making the offer to explain this matter in further detail on other terms. It is important, however, for the House—and perhaps, in due course, the Intelligence Committee—to understand whether the system is capable of responding as fast as the quite proper legal restraints enable it to do. If the Home Secretary can reassure us, now and later, on that point, he will have our backing not only today but, as we move forward, for the continued operation of a system that is certainly much better than no such system.

I shall not detain the House, because a number of hon. Members want to speak in this brief debate. I want to pick up on and amplify the matter that I raised in an intervention on the Secretary of State, and to raise a further issue.

I am deeply concerned about these and other terrorist groups, the growing menace of human trafficking and the likelihood of terrorist materials coming in through our sea ports. The Home Office—I am not referring to the Home Secretary himself—and other agencies do not sufficiently appreciate the nature of our sea ports. I represent the port of Tilbury, which is a secure port with it own dedicated police force, and very professional it is too. Incidentally, it celebrated its bicentenary this weekend. I am proud of the force, which is part of a much wider Port of London police force, which has now gone into decline.

In decades past, some ports were policed by the British Transport police, but only a few ports—Tilbury, Felixstowe, Tees and Hartlepool, one on Merseyside, Lame, Belfast, Dover and perhaps a few others—have a dedicated police force. Those forces are very professional, but in many other sea ports and wharfs, including some in my constituency outside the port of Tilbury, boats come in every day. I am convinced that, day after day, people get off those boats and come into the United Kingdom unchallenged, because the immigration authorities and Customs and Excise are not present and there is no dedicated police force.

I note what the Home Secretary said in response to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) about the concept of a wider border authority for the European Union, and I am with the hon. Gentleman on that. That issue has wider implications and should be raised in a summit. I urge the Home Secretary to discuss with colleagues in his Department and across Departments the need for a dedicated national police force along the lines of the Ports Canada police and the coastguard in the United States of America. Such a force should operate in the United Kingdom. How would it be paid for? That is always the grubby problem. A small charge on each container going into our ports and a small nominal charge on each passenger passing through them could sustain an effective ports police.

Such a force would not be instead of Customs and Excise, the immigration service and other agencies, but would buttress them. It would provide a safety net and could develop skills and expertise, and use the technology to which the Home Secretary referred. That technology is being introduced at good ports, because the port managements are investing in it. The port of Tilbury has done a great deal, and is using some wonderful technology, which I do not understand, that can see inside containers. It can prevent human trafficking, terrorism and the other crimes that take place in our ports. That is not happening in some of its competitor ports. There is an issue of fairness and competition. All ports in the United Kingdom should have the same standards of integrity when combating crime and terrorism. I hope that the Home Secretary will think about that—I could amplify those ideas further in a meeting if that would be useful.

The Home Secretary referred to this technology in the summer. I would have tabled some parliamentary questions had we been sitting, but we do not yet sit in the summer. There was a report of radioactive material coming through the port of Felixstowe. Funnily enough, it was eventually stopped in Tilbury, although it was nothing to do with the port of Tilbury. The technology worked, but the human response failed.

Order. This order refers to four terrorist organisations, so it is narrower than the point that the hon. Member is making.

I fully accept and abide by your ruling, Mr. Speaker. In my defence, I should say that it was the Home Secretary who referred to the technology at ports, not me. I noted that, because I thought that you might call me to order. He was the guilty man, not me, but I shall move on. The Home Secretary might know of the incident to which I refer. I realise that the question of security is involved, but I would welcome the opportunity to talk to him or his colleagues about this issue.

I have discussed in the Foreign Affairs Committee and with the Foreign Secretary my great anxiety about the presence in our scientific postgraduate institutions of members of groups such as those that are the subject of this order who are studying doctorates. The scientific community in this country is transient. It is a high-income earner for the United Kingdom, and long may it flourish, but all the indications are that our security and intelligence services and academia have not the foggiest idea who some of these people are. That constitutes a great void in our security and intelligence services, and I hope that the Home Secretary will refer to it. The organisations mentioned in the order could well have people working at the University of London, in Bloomsbury, at Imperial College, or at other of our great and proud institutions. Such people might be working on proper research 95 per cent. of the time, but what we do not know is what they are doing during the ether 5 per cent., and what they have kept in the back of he fridge.

I told the Home Secretary and the House that my colleagues and I will support the order in this House, and in the other House later today. Given that this is the first debate on this issue for more than a year, it is appropriate first to join Ministers and others by reaffirming our solidarity and sympathy with the huge number of people who, since we last debated proscription and terrorist organisations, have suffered at the hands of terrorists. Atrocious numbers were killed in the United States in the late summer of last year. According to the latest figures, 184 people were killed in Bali just a couple of weeks ago, of whom 14 were UK citizens, and according to research carried out by my assistant with the help of our very good Library staff, the intelligence suggests that other terrorist activities that took place between 11 September last year and the Bali incident resulted in the deaths of a further 50 people in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Tunisia, Yemen and Kuwait.

The Home Secretary is right to say that we need to be continually vigilant in this matter, and the Government are right to say that proscription must be kept under permanent review. As I have always made clear, we have an obligation to have legislation that helps to counter terrorism. Although he was not in his current post at the time, the Home Secretary may remember my Liberal Democrat colleagues and I arguing for the end of the old anti-terrorist legislation that split the UK into two parts—Northern Ireland in one category, and Great Britain in the other—and for comprehensive legislation that treats all parts and all citizens equally. That is why we welcomed the principle of the 2000 Act and accepted the principle of proscription. Sometimes, it is necessary to take the drastic step of telling those who belong to, work for and associate themselves with certain organisations that such activities a re unacceptable in this country. We still hold to that view, which is why we will support the order, and consider it absolutely right that this country reserve the power to proscribe certain organisations in the right way.

To pick up on a phrase that the Home Secretary used, we should, of course, never be a haven for terrorists. The justifiable argument was made that we perhaps unwittingly became such a haven, in part, during the late 1990s. There is a difficult balance to strike. We must not become such a country, but on the other hand we must be a haven for free speech and liberty for those who, within the law, want to be critical of—in spoken word and in writing—regimes, faiths and practices that they consider unacceptable. I therefore hope that the Home Secretary—of whom I, like the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), would like to ask a few questions—will accept the good faith of our position.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that proscription often leads to fragmentation and splinter groups, which go underground and change their names? Sometimes, proscription can lead to greater difficulties, rather than addressing current ones.

The hon. Lady has clear local experience of that issue in Northern Ireland, and I understand her point. When we debated the legislation in Committee, her party's nominee on the Committee was sometimes critical—as were other Opposition Members—of some of the terminology, definitions and processes put forward by the Government, and that was because of his Northern Ireland experience. Now that we have common legislation that proscribes both Irish organisations and international organisations, we have a common interest in ensuring that we get it right. One of my questions for the Home Secretary is how we can get it right so that banning one organisation does not just force the people involved to invent themselves in another guise and carry on, with the inevitable lead time before that guise is also banned.

I have a question on timing, which is not meant to be accusatorial. The Home Secretary puts the names of four organisations before us today, which are all extremist Islamic organisations. The first, Jemaah Islamiyah, is based in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines, and was put on the proscribed list by the United States, Australia and the United Nations only in the past couple of days or weeks. I have not been able to check whether it is on the European Union list yet. What triggered the Government's view that the organisation should be proscribed? I understand the delicacy of the intelligence issues, but that organisation clearly has a reputation in the areas in which it is based that has given real cause for concern.

As for the other three organisations, Abu Sayyaf is based in the Philippines, Asbat Al-Ansar is based in the Lebanon and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan is—self-evidently—based in that former Soviet state in Asia. All those organisations appear to have been put on the EU list last October. What link is there between a decision by the EU to put them on its list and the Government's decision to put them on our list? I accept the point, which was well made by the Home Secretary, that we must not act simply on the basis of somebody's assertion of the case against an organisation. The Home Secretary has himself had experience of a case in which someone was arrested in this country but then acquitted because the United States did not produce the evidence that the authorities had been led to believe—in good faith, I am sure—would be forthcoming. The Government are right to make their own intelligence assessment and not rely on arguments put forward by another country that might have different motives to which we might not always wish to subscribe.

Can the Home Secretary confirm that to his knowledge none of those organisations are or have been active in the United Kingdom or are or have been a threat to our interests here? I understand that in relation to activities in Indonesia, there was a clear threat if those killed included British citizens—indeed, the organisation in question there showed that it is a threat to the international community. Is it sufficient for the purposes of the legislation for the Home Secretary to be of the view that a threat exists abroad?

Can the Home Secretary tell us when we may expect Lord Carlile's review, taking place under the process for checking on the legislation? It is due in the near future and will be helpful as an independent review of the working of the legislation. Does the Home Secretary remember whether the Government said in Committee that they would also undertake a regular review process? What is the mechanism for doing that?

The Home Secretary may remember that the Liberal Democrats had some arguments with the Government about the definition of terrorism. I shall not rehearse them today, but we argued for a narrower definition. We accept that we lost the argument, but we were also concerned that the legislation was a matter of proscribe first, review later. On that key issue, will the Home Secretary give further consideration to seeking the advice of the Intelligence and Security Committee—on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) serves—to obtain an independent view on every case in which he is minded to proscribe? That could be done very quickly. In some circumstances, it might not be possible immediately, but it would still remain a parliamentary backstop. I should be grateful if the Home Secretary would give consideration to that process, not least because it would give him support for his propositions in connection with information that cannot always be available to the House or the country.

It has been suggested outside the House that one currently proscribed organisation, the Sri Lankan Tamil organisation the LTTE, might be a candidate for de-proscription, as it has been de-proscribed in Sri Lanka. Given the peace process that is under way, will the Home Secretary say whether de-proscription of the LTTE is under active consideration? Which organisations currently on the list have appealed to the Home Secretary and, beyond him, to the commission? I presume that any organisation still on the list was unsuccessful in its appeal, but whether an organisation has appealed—and to which level—should not be a secret.

Finally, I represent a constituency with a significant multi-faith community that includes Muslims. We have to do another job that is the opposite of banning organisations. We have to educate young people who might be tempted to serve the causes of bad people. It might be useful for any such education process to list the banned organisations, and to ensure that correct information is propagated. That would ensure that people were not under any misapprehension that the organisation to which they were being recruited was involved in justified activity, whether it be in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Philippines or Indonesia. Will the Home Secretary consider ways to ensure that the communities affected—in this case, the Islamic community—can have the information that will help people with good motives to avoid entrapment in organisations that will lead them badly astray?

This is an important debate. The level of unanimity among hon. Members of all parties shows how seriously we take it. In the past, my party asked that organisations be proscribed separately rather than collectively. We argued that differences of view about organisations meant that it was impossible to vote on them all together. We hold to that view. As it happens, we believe that each of the four organisations in the order pass the test and therefore we agree that they should be proscribed. However, we hope that the Home Secretary will consider separate proscriptions for each organisation. We also hope that there will be separate votes, if not separate debates, if the matters come before the House again while he is in office.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is aware of my interest in some of these matters.

I could not be anything else.

I think that I have asked about 150 parliamentary questions on these matters over the past couple of years. My file of correspondence is probably as fat as my right hon. Friend's, but he will be interested to know that I do not propose to raise with him the question of the people whom he called loud-mouthed irritants. I assume that they include Abu Hanza, although I believe that he is a threat in a way that my right hon. Friend does not.

Moreover, press reports suggest that Abu Qatada, one of the spiders at the centre of the terrorist web in Europe,is now in detention. I am pleased about that, and hope that the reports are correct. However, I want to raise the question of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, about which I was in correspondence with my right hon. Friend earlier in the year.

I have been looking at the criteria employed for the proscription of some of the organisations. The PFLP seems to meet all of them, but has not been proscribed. That seems rather odd. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said earlier that proscription required that there be a specific threat to the UK or its nationals, or to those who support the international community's campaign against terrorism. Again, in that context, I am surprised that the PFLP is not on the proscribed list.

In a letter dated 29 May—and in response to a parliamentary question that I asked at around the same date—my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary told me that the list of organisations was kept under review, that decisions to proscribe or to deproscribe were taken after consideration of all relevant aspects, that the list was renewed periodically, and that organisations could be added in the light of available information. I welcome the fact that four organisations are being added to the list, but given the criteria for selecting those organisations, I find it surprising that the PFLP was not selected.

The PFLP has a long history of terrorism, going right back to 1968. I do not propose to go into it this afternoon, but it virtually invented aircraft hijacking with the 1970 black September hijacking, when Leila Khaled was detained in the United Kingdom after the death of a terrorist and serious injury to a flight attendant on an El Al airliner. That terrorism has developed and grown since those early days and I was very surprised that Leila Khaled was allowed into this country earlier this year.

In recent times, the PFLP has become increasingly active in terrorist attacks. It rejects the peace process and its leadership is very hard line. In the past year, in particular, there have been some serious incidents, which mirror and, indeed, go far beyond those described on the list in the explanatory memorandum for today's debate. For example, Jemaah Islamiyah is being proscribed because of its links with al-Qaeda and the memorandum mentions

"planning attacks against several targets in Singapore".

In the past year, the PFLP attempted an attack on Ben Gurion international airport using a car bomb, which was mercifully foiled by the Israeli security services. Mohammed Kandas, a PFLP organiser, told his interrogators that he had been recruited in Iraq in 1988.

In the same month, there was an attempted attack on the Maccabiah games in Jerusalem. Salem Taleb Al-Darawi, of the PFLP, was one of those involved. It was described as a "joint operation" and a PFLP militia group was involved. Perhaps most chilling of all was the attempt to bring down the Israeli equivalent of the twin towers when, on 7 May this year, Israeli soldiers intercepted a truck filled with more than half a tonne of high explosives, the target being the 50-storey Azrieli towers. Again, two of those involved were senior PFLP leaders, Ra'ad Nazel, the area commander for the PFLP, who was killed in the operation, and another PFLP commander who was arrested. Let us contrast that record with that of the JI organisation, which was accused only of planning attacks. I think that the PFLP attacks were much more serious.

The Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan is being proscribed because it is supposed to have launched a sophisticated bombing campaign in Tashkent, which was directed against the Uzbekistan regime. We should note that it was not directed against UK interests. However, in the past few months the PFLP has organised more bomb attacks. On 3 September, a car bomb and three other bombs exploded in Jerusalem and nine civilians were injured. On 17 October 2001, there was a car bombing in the Gaza strip at Nahal Oz. On 16 February 2002, two children were killed and 27 wounded when a PFLP suicide bomber exploded himself at a crowded shopping mall in Karnei Shomron. On 19 May 2002, the PFLP carried out a suicide bombing in the coastal city of Netanya, in which three people were killed and 59 wounded, which was apparently planned from prison by Ahmed Saadat, the leader of the PFLP, according to telephone taps, while he was supposed to have been guarded by UK and American prison guards as part of the agreement with the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I make no apology for the organisation to which my hon. Friend refers, although I certainly see a distinction—even if he does not—between it and the organisations that have been proscribed, and I deplore all forms of terrorism. He referred to the totally unjustified killing of Israeli civilians, including children, which is absolutely deplorable. I hope that he will deplore the killing of Palestinian civilians and children by the Israeli authorities in the occupied territories.

Obviously, I hear what my hon. Friend says and any deaths in the middle east are to be regretted. We need to do what we can to achieve a ceasefire, but one of the keys to that is an end to Palestinian terrorism. However, that is not the issue that I am dealing with today.

We are told that Asbat Al-Ansar is being proscribed because of its activities in the Lebanon, which we are told in the memorandum have

"been limited to small-scale bombing and assassinations".

We can contrast that with the assassination of the Israeli Tourism Minister, Rechavam Ze'evi, on 17 October 2001, for which the PFLP actually claimed responsibility. When we contrast the PFLP record against the individual records of those organisations, it is as much as everything that they have done.

We are told that we should be supporting the international community. After the assassination of the Israeli Cabinet Minister, even the Palestinian Authority allegedly outlawed the military wing of the PFLP, yet we do not even seem to be doing the little that the Authority has done.

In June this year, the European Union declared the PFLP a terror organisation. To follow up the point made by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), there is a relationship between our domestic anti-terrorism laws and decisions taken by the EU. I understood that the EU decision to proscribe the PFLP as a terror organisation meant that, as one of the 15 member states, we, too, must take action by—at the least—freezing the funds and assets of the PFLP. If we accept that EU decision, I fail to understand why we are not proscribing the PFLP under the order.

We are told that we have to consider the threat to the United Kingdom and to UK citizens. There is no doubt that the PFLP is active on university campuses in the UK, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) suggested. For example, in January 2001 and May 2002, Leila Khaled visited the UK, but apparently we cannot prosecute her because in 1970 our laws against hijacking were not as strong as they are nowadays. If those offences had been committed today, she would have been jailed, presumably for life; yet she is allowed to come and go with impunity because the PFLP is not a proscribed organisation. In Manchester and at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, she reportedly justified suicide bombings. In the Daily Telegraph of 27 May, she stated that the PFLP has

"a lot of supporters here".

Indeed, an organisation has been formed—the Che-Leila Youth Brigade—which is primarily a student group and has been sending British students to the West Bank and to Gaza.

The PFLP has never accepted the peace process in the middle east. The organisation is rejectionist. It has never renounced its intention to mount attacks overseas against Israeli citizens and, indeed, those who get caught in such attacks. We must not forget that, in 1994, the PFLP attempted to blow up the Israeli embassy in Britain. It is a terrorist organisation and has become increasingly active. We are being asked to proscribe four organisations and I cannot understand why the PFLP is not the fifth on the list.

Next time, perhaps the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) might care to table an amendment. We could then at least address the question specifically.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Not yet.

It is right that we should not let the motion pass undebated and that several right hon. and hon. Members should participate in the debate. The motion is important. I raise no objection to the proscription of these organisations. I am perfectly prepared to accept that they genuinely are terrorist organisations that constitute a threat to us all. None the less we need to be clear that the order is draconian and that it affects British citizens dramatically.

If you will forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall remind the House of the extent to which the rights of British citizens are affected. British citizens are made the subject of the criminal law and their rights to support political organisations are constrained by what is very largely an Executive action.

The explanatory memorandum is helpful. Section 11 of the Act makes it an offence to belong to a proscribed organisation. That offence is punishable by 10 years in prison and/or an unlimited fine. Section 12 makes it an offence to seek support, financial or otherwise, for those proscribed organisations. That, too, is subject to a 10-year maximum prison sentence and/or an unlimited fine.

Section 13 of the Act makes it an offence to carry placards, for example, or wear the insignia of the proscribed organisations. That, too, is backed by a sentence of imprisonment and/or a fine. Of course there are very wide powers in the Act to seize, detain and forfeit the property of proscribed organisations, and the full range of the powers in the Act are applied to terrorist organisations.

The fact that the four organisations are largely situated outside the United Kingdom should not blind us to the fact that there may be British citizens in this country who, prima facie, support them. So we are ourselves by this proscription greatly extending the scope of the criminal law to the British citizen, and we need to be absolutely clear about the gravity of what we are doing. We therefore need to consider the procedure by which the House—it is ultimately the House—makes the order.

To start with, the Home Secretary—or, of course, his successor—has to form a belief that the organisation in question is a terrorist organisation, and I shall return to that in a moment. Assuming that the right hon. Gentleman reaches that conclusion, he will lay an order— which will doubtless be passed by the House and, indeed, the other place, because it is subject to the affirmative procedure. But let us be absolutely clear about the fact that no hon. Member, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman, knows the nature of the evidence on which the proscription takes place, so we are entitled to ask how the British citizen affected by the order can challenge it.

I shall tell the House. The British citizen can apply for the proscribed organisation to be de-proscribed by applying to the person who proscribed it in the first instance, and if by any chance the Home Secretary says no, one is entitled to ask what then is the appeal. Well, that is where the difficulty arises. There is no proper appeal; there is a commission. I am not blackguarding the commission—I am perfectly prepared to accept that it is staffed by very eminent and respectable people—but its powers are limited because it reviews the Home Secretary's exercise of his powers in accordance with the principles that govern judicial review. In other words, the appeal is not an appeal against the merits of the Home Secretary's decision—oh, no—it is an appeal about the procedure. Provided that the Home Secretary got the procedure right—in other words, he did not act ultra vires or in any unreasonable manner—the decision not to de-proscribe stands because there is no review of the merits. The review applies the principles of judicial review to the procedure or the exercise of the powers. That is different.

The issues that my right hon. and learned Friend raises are worthy of debate, but does he agree that the criteria on the basis of which the Home Secretary makes the judgment are not just whether the organisation is in his view a terrorist organisation, but whether it poses a specific threat to the United Kingdom or to British nationals overseas; whether it has a significant presence in this country; and whether there is a need to ban it to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism. Given that those are the criteria on the basis of which the Home Secretary is called to judge the matter, does it not follow that the proceedings will be parallel to those in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, or judicial review on the basis of a full display of the evidence? The merits themselves cannot be questioned, but the commission will tend to ask the question that it is appropriate to ask in the light of the Wednesbury unreasonableness test. So will the commission not be investigating precisely whether the Home Secretary has sufficient evidence to be a reasonable person in making that decision? Is that not a sufficient safeguard?

That may be true. Clearly, the commission in question determines whether the Secretary of State was acting intra vires and whether he was acting reasonably. That is different, however, from deciding whether the decision was right, and/or whether the evidence was sufficient on its merits to justify the conclusion. That is a different matter from reviewing procedure.

The night hon. and learned Gentleman is, of course, right. He has been consistent, and he is consistently right. It should be possible for the merits to be explored by a court, and that can be done without jeopardising security. I hope that he will elaborate on that point in the short time that is available.

I was going to come to the next point, which is that there is a limited right of appeal to the Court of Appeal. In that regard, I am talking about the jurisdiction of England and Wales and not outside—the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) will forgive me if I do not refer to Northern Ireland on this point.

A right exists to appeal to the Court of Appeal in England and Wales, but only on a point of law and from the commission—there are rules in relation to getting leave for that. I return to the point that, in reality, the criminal law is being extended and civil rights curtailed without anybody outside the Home Office having the opportunity to review the evidence. I view that, as a matter of principle, with great anxiety; that is not to say that it is not right in this case, but we should be very cautious.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will remember that when we debated the Bill, he, I and others sought to amend it to allow a review before prescription by a judicial authority that there were reasonable grounds. If the legislation were amended along those lines, would he be satisfied, or at least partly satisfied, that that would deal with the Executive power unqualified of which he is now critical?

It would be better than the current. position, but I will make a particular proposal, too. I have expressed my anxieties, and I now want to identify some further questions. I know that the hon. Member for North Down wants to contribute, and I shall give way in good time.

First, we need to be conscious that what are being proscribed are terrorist organisations. Terrorism is defined broadly in section 1 of the Act. Of course, that definition catches the four organisations that are the subject of the order, many of which are related to al-Qaeda. By definition, however, it also catches, for example, people who want to supplant Saddam Hussein. Distinctions exist between sheep and goats in relation to terrorism. Some terrorists are goats, and some are sheep. The interesting question is who makes that decision. In theory, of course, the House decides, as it has the right to refuse the order. As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) rightly said, however, this is a rolled-up order dealing with four named organisations. It would be. better by far to have single orders dealing with the four separate organisations.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

If I may, I shall finish this point, and then I shall give way.

The point is that we need to know more definitively how the distinction between one set of terrorism, which we regard as good because it does not threaten us, and another set of terrorism, which we regard as bad because it does, is made. Nothing in the Act provides for that; it is entirely discretionary.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows as well as anybody—perhaps better, owing to his ministerial experience—how difficult it is for a liberal democracy to protect itself while protecting civil liberties, and, at the same time, to try as far as is possible to deny those who want to destroy us the opportunity of doing so. Although the right hon. and learned Gentleman says that there is no evidence—I do not expect the Home Secretary to give us all the detailed information any more than he does—I notice that he has not questioned the information supplied to us in the explanatory memorandum. Would he not be on safer ground if he said that he does not accept what the Home Secretary has stated in the memorandum, and that he therefore disputes that the named groups are terrorist organisations?

I do not think that is fair criticism. In the first place, I have made it plain to the House that I am perfectly prepared to accept that the proscription of these four organisations is fair. The point that I wish to make is that the consequences are pretty draconian for British citizens. We therefore need to establish better ways of ensuring that the evidence is good.

That takes me to the point that I wanted to make in response to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, and which has also been raised by another hon. Member. I asked rhetorically why the Joint Intelligence and Security Committee of both Houses should not review the quality of the intelligence material on the basis of which the Home Secretary acts. It would at least be able to form a view as to the quality of that material. In a sense, that would be a review of the merits of the decision.

I have a couple of other direct questions for the Home Secretary. First, which Minister decides on proscription? I refer to the substance and not the form.

It would be sensible for me to reply to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question now. The answer is I do.

I am very glad to learn that. I recall from my time in the Home Office—and in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—that there is a tendency to delegate decisions down to junior Ministers before the submission goes up to the Home Secretary. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the decision is not delegated to junior Ministers or officials, but that it is taken exclusively by him.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman used the word "hope". I have just said—therefore, it is a fact—that, on this and every other terrorism and security-related issue, I take the decisions personally.

I am very glad to hear that, but I want to press the right hon. Gentleman a bit further. On what basis does he act? Is it exclusively a paper-based exercise? In other words, does he rely exclusively on a file or does he ask the relevant officials from GCHQ, the security services or whatever to come and make a presentation to him? I would like to know the answer, because I would be more cautious about a paper-based exercise than I would if the right hon. Gentleman summoned officials to a meeting and quizzed them. That is what he should do. How much consultation is held with intelligence services from other countries? That issue is important.

I have two final points. First, I very much agree with the point that the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey made about regular reviews. They can be carried out in various ways, but I should like to think that a regular review would take place within the Home Office of whether these or any other organisations should be subject to proscription.

I know that the hon. Member for North Down has been waiting patiently, but I wish to refer to justice. Let us never lose sight of the fact that we are curtailing civil and political rights and that we are extending the criminal law to British citizens who may or may not be our constituents. It is very easy to be unjust in the context of a crisis, an emergency or terrorism. I put those arguments to the Home Secretary during the debates on the Terrorism Act 2000.

I had hoped that my earlier intervention might tempt the right hon. and learned Gentleman into discussing an appeals system of the sort operated by SIAC. However, I do not want to tempt him to do so for too long.

I have, in a sense, come to where I want to rest. I would be happy to help in the establishment of a review committee that would address the merits of proscription. The consequences of proscription are perhaps graver than we all appreciate. The fact that the House is nearly empty may be evidence of that. The fact is that we can commit serious acts of injustice in the context of a national emergency, and the House must be slow in becoming party to such a process. We must scrutinise such orders as carefully and as closely as we can within the accepted procedures.

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg). I agree with his view that it is an important measure, so it is a matter of regret that the Chamber is so empty on this occasion.

I preface my remarks by saying that the experience of living through 30 years of terrorism in Northern Ireland colours one's impressions when speaking on any measure that deals with terrorism and extends the powers of the Home Secretary. It is with the appalling consequences that thousands of people in Northern Ireland have had to endure for those 30 years in mind that we welcome the fact that we are tightening measures to combat terrorism, not just in the United Kingdom, but around the world, where Governments are taking collective action and rightly standing shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister. I assure the Home Secretary that although other Members from the Ulster Unionist party are not here in body, they are with him in spirit. To quote the Prime Minister, we stand shoulder to shoulder with him in tightening measures to combat the awful scourge and threat of terrorism.

However—I realise that it is an awful moment when an hon. Member uses that word—there are two matters on which I would welcome the Home Secretary's comments. The first relates to the statement of compatibility with the European convention on human rights, on which I should like guidance. The Home Secretary knows that, according to the convention, everyone within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, irrespective of their nationality, is guaranteed the right to life and to freedom from degrading and inhumane treatment. If a non-British national who is within the jurisdiction of the UK is a member of, or associated with, any of the four proscribed organisations listed in the order, can he be deported to a country where he will almost certainly be put to death or at least subjected to inhumane and degrading treatment or torture? I am greatly worried about the powers that we are taking to ourselves because the rights, privileges and the guarantees of the convention apply to everyone in the jurisdiction, irrespective of nationality.

My second concern relates to what I said when I intervened on the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes). Although proscription rightly sends out a strong signal to terrorist organisations, as the Home Secretary said, it often leads to fragmentation of those organisations, which go underground and rename themselves. That has been our experience in Northern Ireland of both loyalist and republican organisations, although internal feuding has also been a factor.

I shall not give a comprehensive list because I do not want to delay hon. Members, but the loyalist list includes the UDA, the UFF, the UVF, the Red Hand Commandos and the Red Hand Defenders. They have rebranded many times, primarily because of proscription, but also because of internal feuding. On the other side of the coin, the list of republican organisations started with the IRA. After a falling out, the list was extended to include the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. The Real IRA, Continuity IRA and the INLA are also now on the list, to name but a few. Will the Home Secretary reassure me that the proscription of the four organisations will not follow the similar tragic pattern of proscribed terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland?

I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Members for the manner in which they have addressed the issues, and I will endeavour to respond to the wide range of the questions that have been asked. If questions remain that I have not tackled, I shall be happy to answer them in correspondence. As I indicated at the beginning of the debate, I shall deal on Privy Council terms with issues that require security clearance.

I assure the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that we need to be vigorous in pursuing the intentions of proscription. If an organisation reconfigures itself—I used the term "reconfigure" earlier in the debate—and reappears with the same members presenting themselves in a different guise, it must fall under the original proscription. The key task, of course, is to ascertain that a group has done so, and I would not demur from the inference that the task needs to be performed with vigour and clarity. In other words, we have not fallen off a log, and we know that simply changing a name or vaguely reconfiguring the membership would constitute a prima facie case. I am happy to continue to discuss that, and I shall do so with the new Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The issue was also raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes).

I want to make it clear that the use of these powers and the designation of proscription are designed not to damage the interests of any individual but to protect the interests of the wider community. The hon. Member for North Down asked me about the process whereby an individual would, prima facie, be sent to certain death or torture. Such considerations were the reason for the establishment of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission under the 1997 Act of the same name, and for it being given powers that are wide enough to review raison d'etre and to consider evidence in camera for the decision of certification. Obviously, those provisions would apply if an individual were deemed to be a member of a proscribed organisation and was to be ejected from the country on the grounds that their presence was not conducive to the public good.

The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) raised several issues—fervently, as he always does. I repeat my view that all security and intelligence issues, including proscription and the issuing of warrants, should be the job of the Home Secretary, and I take that very seriously because the buck stops here.

I make it clear to all hon. Members that, as the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) rightly and generously said, I find decisions on proscription or the issuing of certificates weighty issues that have to be tackled with the utmost seriousness and care and in great detail. The unit established in the Home Office is able to provide that detail because it draws from the security and intelligence services evidence that they have adduced and evidence that they have gleaned from other such services throughout the world, with whom they have tremendous relationships.

The intelligence services—MI5, MI6, GCHQ and the defence intelligence service—have the best possible relations and, therefore, the ability to draw on and share information. That is crucial for the evidence that we use, particularly concerning organised international terrorism. All four organisations in this measure are being proscribed on the basis of their international action rather than—this answers one or two of the questions raised—the presence in the United Kingdom of individuals who can be shown to be members of the organisations. However, we are concerned about the general support, financial or otherwise, that may be given to those organisations, which is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I acted as we did following the UN decision last week.

In response to a question by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, I have to say that there is always a difficult issue concerning the proportionality and balance between the rights of individuals in a free society and the protection and public interest of that society as a whole. We debated that at length last year, and we will continue to debate it because we are a democracy. We will continue also to debate the nature of those who review the actions of the democratically elected Parliament, embodied in the Executive who are held to account, this afternoon and on many other occasions, by Parliament. The review should be conducted by people who can ask questions about the process described by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, as well as the evidence base and the way in which that relates to the original terms of the legislation and the definitions that I gave earlier. We should not consider democracy by Parliament and elected representatives more flawed and less reliable and secure than democracy by judicial methods—the two go hand-in-hand and are pillars supporting the same structure of protection. It is important that people do not think that the democracy that we have constructed is less secure and less of a democracy because we do not constantly hand over final decisions to those who are not elected and do not have that accountability or responsibility.

As usual, the Home Secretary is giving a fair view of sensitive matters, which are rightly confidential. No one in the House would impugn his personal integrity. Nevertheless, I hope that he agrees that, in the interests of justice, it should be possible for a court to scrutinise in camera the merits of a decision made by him or one of his successors with the appropriate advocate chosen from a pool of prolocutors in a process similar to that used by the SIAC system.

We could obviously debate whether the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission goes far enough in reviewing matters that we are reviewing and in being able to provide a proper form of appeal. I was asked earlier about appeal and de-proscription. If an organisation—the example given was LTTE, but others are also relevant—provides evidence that it has forsworn terrorism and is clearly distanced from it, here or internationally, it is important that we take evidence from the country that has suffered most and consider whether it is still actively raising funds and engaged in other ways with international terrorism. If so, it should be proscribed. That process can take place; the organisation can produce evidence and argue its case properly, not just to the Home Secretary but to the commission. We must take a reasonable and rational view—if the organisation believes it has a case, it can take that action. I shall supply the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey with a list, but some appeals are going through at the moment, so I shall not comment any further. Lord Carlile's review is due in February, and a 15-month review will be debated in Parliament on the back of the sunset clause in the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. There are so many review bodies and commissions, including those that rightly review all the warrants and certificates that I sign, that they almost constitute an industry. That is a proper safeguard, albeit one that is little known to the outside world, which assumes that we make a decision, then go away and that is the end of it. It is not, of course.

I am grateful for the Home Secretary's helpful answer. To take up a proposal made on a couple of occasions, will he consider whether an existing body of parliamentarians—the democratically elected members of the Intelligence and Security Committee—may be given an additional brief reviewing intelligence prior to future decisions about proscription?

I am minded to try to keep the balance of the Intelligence and Security Committee, for which we all have a great deal of respect. However, I am prepared to consider the kind of evidence that its members can take on Privy Council terms. I am not sure about widening the committee chaired by Lord Newton. In fact, I seem to have put myself in the hands of every form of opposition, from Lord Carlile to Lord Newton and Lady Harris. I am afraid to tell the hon. Member for North Down that no member of her party serves on that committee—we will have to take a look at that and see what we can do.

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), I made it clear at the outset that the proscribed organisations covered by the motion are determined by their contacts with al-Qaeda and our knowledge and proof that that is so, but that does not rule out proscribing other organisations where that is merited. I have not done that. I want to make that clear to him, because he made a powerful case in relation to Palestinian terrorism.

There is an underlying issue, which was raised throughout the debate: the need to understand the international nature of terrorism, rather than the issue of whether a particular group wants to overthrow Saddam Hussein. The international nature of terrorism is what we have been debating this afternoon.

I invite my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) to meet the co-ordinator, to see whether we can make some progress on his concerns about port security. It is as important to me as it is to him and his constituents that we get that right. We have a senior police officer working as co-ordinator and I would value the help that my hon. Friend can give. In fact, he and my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon might be tremendous candidates for joining the security services when, at some distant future date, they decide to step down from Parliament. I shall put their names forward as they have done such a good job.

I assure the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for West Dorset, that I will provide to him any answers that I have not given during the debate. It is important that answers are given to questions about the links to the meeting in Thailand, the incidents in the Philippines and Singapore, and the direct links to knowledge, at a particular juncture, about the work and actions of JI in the archipelago, of which Bali is just one part. I would like to provide that information on Privy Council terms. Clearly, knowledge has been available. Everyone who has taken an interest in these matters—I know that his right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), raised the matter in the context of a statement following the Bali attack—was aware of the kind of intervention that had saved people in Singapore, and the exchange of information that had taken place between security services on the back of it.

As the right hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out very gently and, I thought, generously, it is easy to be wise after the event. We are trying to balance what his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham believes to be a draconian power of proscription with the need to act quickly and decisively when we believe that there is sufficient evidence to prove international links with terrorism, and a threat not just to us, but to all those seeking democracy across the world.

I propose to put together the Questions on delegated legislation.