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Westminster Hall

Volume 409: debated on Thursday 17 July 2003

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Westminster Hall

Thursday 17 July 2003

[SIR ALAN HASELHURST [n the Chair]

Domestic Violence

Oral Answers To Questions

The Government were asked—

Refuge Accommodation

2.30 pm

2.

What public funding is available to support the provision of refuge accommodation for those fleeing domestic violence. [125464]

9.

What support the Government give to women's refuges. [125472]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
(Yvette Cooper)

The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is investing £8.9 million capital funding and the Housing Corporation is providing a further £9.9 million capital funding from within its budget for refuge accommodation. In addition, support for women in refuges and other accommodation in respect of circumstances of domestic violence is also supported through the supporting people programme. This year, that stands at £34 million.

Does the Minister agree that the providers of refuges, such as Women's Aid, do sterling work in providing places of safety for those escaping from violence? Does she accept that they do more than just provide a roof over people's heads, but give help in identifying legal advice, careers advice and child care? In developing the Government's policy for vulnerable children, does she agree with me and the Women's Aid branch in Stafford about the need for more specialist services for children, especially black and ethnic minority children who witness or suffer domestic violence themselves?

My hon. Friend is right. Support for children must be a priority. Women's refuges throughout the country do an immense amount of excellent work, usually in conjunction with local authorities and specialist services. Considerable help is already provided. The supporting people programme can be used in some circumstances to provide for child care support, too. My hon. Friend is right to identify specialist support, especially for the black and ethnic minority community. We have identified that in the consultation paper as an area where we want feedback because we need to know especially about the level of unmet need throughout the country and what further needs to be done. Investment in refuge places has increased substantially over the past few years, but we must know what further provision is necessary.

I invite the Minister to look at the provision of refuge accommodation within the wider context of social housing. Does she agree that there is a danger that, if there is no adequate availability of social housing for people to move to and begin their lives over again, creating additional refuge places will not begin to solve the problem? Given that the number of households that live in bed-and-breakfast accommodation has tripled since 1997 and the average number of social housing units completed has fallen by a third over the same period, how do the Government—looking at a joined-up approach throughout all areas of housing provision—intend to ensure not only that there is an adequate number of refuge places, but that there is adequate availability of housing for people to move to from refuges and to rebuild their lives?

For many families suffering from domestic violence, refuge accommodation is not the appropriate response. Some can stay in their own home with appropriate support; others need different accommodation. We have substantially increased investment in refuge accommodation—capital investment for this financial year is £18.8 million compared with £2.8 million in 1997—and the number of refuge places has increased. It is right that we should ensure that there is appropriate accommodation, which is why for the first time each local authority must set out a homelessness strategy and examine the unmet need in its area and all the different types of housing need that must be met. That is also why we have set bed-and breakfast accommodation targets, on which we are making significant progress. We need to reduce the number of families in such accommodation.

Order. Although the Minister did not say so, I understood that she was replying also to Question 9, in which case, I call Mrs. Helen Clark.

I welcome the answers that the Minister has given to date. I speak as the MP for Peterborough and our refuge needs more money because we have the highest level of domestic violence in Cambridgeshire—29.1 per cent. of all crimes of domestic violence that are logged. Workers at the Peterborough women's centre believe that refuges are not the only solution. Many women do not want to flee their homes. Why should they? An integrated approach is best—one that involves police, social services and women's aid agencies, as well as women's centres such as the excellent one that we have in Peterborough. Do the Government have plans to progress with such an approach?

My hon. Friend is right to say that the most effective programmes to support women and families in such situations involve different agencies and examine a wide range of options for families. Interestingly, in Harrow work has been done to help families stay in their own homes by improving security and support for them in their homes, where that is an option. Many people would prefer that option to feeling that they have been turfed out of their homes by domestic violence. My hon. Friend is right to say that a wide range of options needs to be explored in every case, and I commend the work to that effect that is being done in Peterborough.

The Minister referred to bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and said that sometimes it is unsuitable for people in this predicament. The Government recognise that about 15 per cent. of all homelessness is caused by domestic violence. Against that benchmark, can the Minister tell the House what percentage of people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation are there as a result of domestic violence?

I do not have those figures to hand, but I will be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman about that.

It may help if I add to the spirit of this cross-ministerial response. Of those households that have been accepted as homeless and in priority need, only 15 per cent. were placed in refuges; 30 per cent. were placed in council or housing association properties; and 25 per cent. decided to stay with friends or relatives. Refuges are important, but there can be more suitable accommodation for some individuals and their families.

Rape Crisis Centres

4.

What (a) financial and (b) other assistance is given to national umbrella organisations representing rape crisis helpline groups which deal with victims of domestic violence. [125466]

Since April 2001, the Home Office has been providing core funding to the Rape Crisis Federation. The grant to the RCF in 2002–03 was £432,000 and we plan to offer a similar level of funding during 2003–04. Home Office officials regularly meet RCF representatives to discuss that organisation's work.

I thank the Minister for that positive response and I hope that we can build on it. I am sure that he is aware that the Rape Crisis Federation Wales and England is struggling with funding for setting up a national database for local rape crisis centres to collate figures of sexual violence—which, sadly, is committed in the family environment as well as by strangers.

I understand that an application for funding was recently made to the Home Office because a number of centres around the country are closing as a result of a lack of funding. We need to realise that these centres have not only a voluntary aspect, but paid professional staff, too. I should like to place on the record the excellent work of the Colchester rape crisis line. We need the centres around the country to assist the increasing numbers of households where domestic violence is taking place. In the last 24 hours it has been announced that, in the past year, the number of recorded rapes has gone up by 27 per cent.

It is true that the grant made to the Rape Crisis Federation is intended to help it to provide core national services; they may or may not include the kind of database referred to by the hon. Gentleman. Finding funding for the 43 local rape crisis centres is something that the Government view as a local responsibility. Two or three of the centres have difficulties at the moment. We are working with the Department of Health to ensure that, wherever possible, local rape crisis centres can discuss with the local primary care trusts how funding might be gained from the primary care trusts. The work of local rape crisis centres and helplines is absolutely essential in providing a local access point and local support. It is critical that those centres should be able to continue their important work.

Funding

What steps the Government are taking to ensure that (a) the basic standards for under-eights' day care services are met for the children who live in women's refuges and (b) statutory funding is provided to enable these services to be provided. [125467]

The sure start unit has worked closely with colleagues in Ofsted to recognise the unique position of women's refuges in providing child care. The national standards for under-eights' day care, introduced in 2001, represent a minimum quality baseline and those standards, through an agreed protocol with refuge organisations. are being interpreted flexibly by Ofsted when it inspects women's refuges. Local authorities are funded to promote new child care places generally, and they will work in partnership with refuges where appropriate.

I thank my hon. Friend for her reply. However, the latest research shows that, when asked. children say that what they most value in refuges is safety and someone to talk to. Given the Government measures to ensure that those support services and safety measures will not be reduced, will she give an assurance that there will be adequate statutory funding to meet national standards?

I can assure my hon. Friend that in the new environment of a children, young persons and families department, the integrated support necessary to meet the needs of children, particularly those in vulnerable and distressed circumstances, can be better addressed where local authorities have statutory obligations in relation to children and their families. We clearly have to ensure that those statutory obligations are met, particularly in relation to women with children in women's refuges.

I am sure that the Minister will recognise and be well aware that women's refuges are not only a refuge for women but for children, who suffer terribly when there is domestic violence. I am sure that we agree on that. However, the Minister might not be aware that at the Peckham women's refuge, for example, there is provision for only 20 hours of social service work for up to 32 children, which, as I am sure she will quickly calculate, is less than one hour per week per child. The children involved are at their most vulnerable and they need the most help.

I was very concerned about the statement made by the Secretary of State for Education and Skills this morning about funding. We are all aware that social services funding is already squeezed. My concern is that, under the new arrangements announced this morning, there will be even less funding for such matters. Will the Minister give me an assurance that there will be proper funding?

The hon. Lady is right to draw attention to the fact that there are more children than adults in women's refuges, which clearly need to provide services that reflect the needs of the individuals occupying them. I cannot comment on the issue that the hon. Lady has brought up, but if she writes to me, I will certainly investigate it. I repeat the assurance given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills both this morning and last night that children's social services budgets will be protected if not increased in the transfer of money and responsibilities to our Department.

Children

6.

What action the Government are taking to protect children and young people who are affected by domestic violence. [125468]

12.

What steps the Government are taking to provide further support to the victims of domestic violence, with particular reference to children. [125476]

Local authority social services departments make a child and family assessment, undertaken according to the framework for the assessment of children in need and their families, and provide services in the light of the outcome of that assessment. Those services should be tailored to the individual needs, including protection needs, of the child, just as they should be for any child in need.

The Government are determined to prevent domestic violence happening or recurring, and to protect and support all victims of domestic violence. Their strategy for tackling domestic violence and for dealing with children who are victims is set out in the consultation paper, "Safety and Justice: The Government's Proposals on Domestic Violence", which was published in June.

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for that reply. Perhaps she accepts that child contact is one of the most challenging issues that needs to be dealt with. Will she work with colleagues to ensure that, in the work of children's committees, children's safety is put first when domestic violence cases come before courts? Does she agree that what we most need to hear about in response to that consultation document, "Safety and Justice", is people's concerns and ideas on how we can improve our policies on that subject?

My hon. Friend makes some useful points about the focus in policy, which reflects the focus in the "Safety and Justice" paper. Guidelines have been produced for the courts and professionals on how to deal with child contact and domestic violence issues. Also, funding has been provided for child contact centres. We recognise the need to go on working with victims to make sure that they are put at the front of the issue, and to increase the legal protection available to them and their families.

My question is directed primarily at the Minister for Children. What advice is given to local education authorities on children who have to move because their families are victims of domestic violence? What is the advice to local education authorities on maintaining educational continuity and, if necessary, providing transport, so that children can continue to go to the school that they attend, even if they have been forced to move in order to remove themselves from domestic violence?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the fact that continuity for children in their schooling is crucial, particularly when they have experienced emotional upheaval as a result of domestic violence, separation and moving away from home. One of the advantages of the new department for children, young people and families will be that we can provide a more coherent and integrated response to children's needs, both through the education service and teachers and through the coming together of those people with others.

We announced the first 35 children's trusts last week. They will pool the previously separate budgets for education, social services and health at a local level, and I hope that they will also include services, such as Connexions and the youth offending teams. Bringing all those together will allow a more coherent response to the child's needs.

First, I declare an interest as the patron of Brighton's women refuge. Proceedings today are slightly confusing, because a lot of questions seem to have dropped out and others are not based on those printed on the Order of Business.

I remind the Minister that three out of five children suffering from abuse have mothers who are experiencing domestic violence; that in nine out of 10 cases, children are present in the same or next room while violence is going on; and that children who have witnessed violence are more likely to be either abusers or victims themselves.

In the light of such statistics, schools are often best placed to detect incidences of abuse or violence in domestic scenarios. Indeed, the failure of schools to detect such abuse has been the basis of some of the worst cases of child death. What guidance is in place for a joined-up approach between teachers, school nurses and social workers to spot children who may be the victims of abuse, and to spot the mothers—in some cases, fathers—of those children, who may be subject to domestic violence but who have not presented themselves to the authorities? Women who are subject to domestic violence approach 11 different agencies, on average, before receiving the help that they need.

The Education Act 2002 places a duty on education authorities to protect children at risk, including those at risk of witnessing or experiencing domestic violence. The hon. Gentleman will know that information sharing, which is central to minimising the risk of abuse or harm to young children, is the subject of a number of experiments being conducted by local government and funded by us. Information sharing will be critical. He will also accept that the proposals that arose from the inquiry into the tragic death of Victoria Climbié will strengthen some relationships at local level. I draw his attention to the development of children's funds, which will provide a more coherent, cross-professional response to children's needs, bringing in the education services and others.

The hon. Gentleman's made some useful points about the number of people with whom women have contact before they receive help. 30 per cent. of domestic violence starts during pregnancy. If abuse has started, it often intensifies during pregnancy. The recommendations of the latest confidential inquiry into maternal deaths, published by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence in 2001, underline the importance of initiating work with pregnant women. In response, the Department of Health is funding a pilot of antenatal screening for domestic violence at the North Bristol NHS Trust, in which 80 community-based midwives were recruited in the hope of detecting abuse of women earlier in the domestic violence cycle and of providing more support and intervention at that stage.

I am grateful that the new Minister for Children responded to my question. Will she confirm that she will be taking such matters under her wing in her new Ministry? Will she give more detail about how they will be approached in the Green Paper because, despite having a debate yesterday, we still have no answers. We received more answers to the questions that we asked yesterday by reading the leaked Government documents in The Times today.

The point about sharing information, which is crucial and about which I asked the Minister several questions yesterday, has not been answered. As the law stands, information sharing still cannot take place. Will she give a firm commitment to the House that that matter will be dealt with properly and in detail, when the Green Paper is eventually published, hopefully on the first day back in September?

As the hon. Gentleman knows from last night's debate, we continue to implement all possible action that is necessary to improve information sharing. It is central to supporting better child protection practices throughout the country, particularly in local authority areas. In May we issued guidance to all relevant bodies to improve understanding of what information can be shared under human rights legislation. That guidance has already gone out and we shall be taking further steps. Pilots are being conducted on how information and computer technology can facilitate information sharing and flag up circumstances where children have come to the attention of different people or authorities in different circumstances. We need to see how those pilots work before deciding how best to implement them at national level.

The hon. Gentleman started by talking about the role of teachers. The Department for Education and Skills has introduced a number of initiatives in that regard. Under the healthy schools standard, we look for evidence that issues of child protection and domestic violence are covered. Under citizenship education, which we introduced, we look for information to be given. Before taking on our new responsibilities, we published an information pack for those who work with young people and in particular for teachers, so that they are more aware of what to consider and who to tell when they find evidence of abuse.

I apologise for being late, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Domestic violence is a major cause of homelessness, which is an acute problem in London and the rest of the south-east because of the shortage of affordable accommodation. A series of support services is available for those who are placed in temporary accommodation and refuges, but only 15 per cent. of homeless families are placed in refuges. The others go into other forms of temporary accommodation, which are often far away from the communities from which they originate. How can we ensure that the support services available to families in other forms of temporary accommodation are as good as those in refuges?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
(Yvette Cooper)

I can answer that question. My hon. Friend is right to say that people go into a variety of types of accommodation. To follow up the question asked by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), I can clarify that of those who were accepted as homeless and in priority need because of domestic violence, 15 per cent. went into refuges, 25 per cent. were staying with friends or relatives, 13 per cent. were in temporary council or housing association properties, 13 per cent. were in hostels and 6 per cent. were in bed-and-breakfast hotels.

My hon. Friend is right to say that the quality of the provision of additional support in women's refuges can be considerable. Obviously, the support available will be different in different types of accommodation, but the supporting people programme provides councils with £1.4 billion overall to pay for additional support for those with particular needs who are in supported accommodation. Of that, £34 million is spent in relation to domestic violence, which can include all sorts of support or the specialist additional support that is needed in other types of temporary accommodation. Local authorities can also provide different types of specialist support in different ways for those in various forms of accommodation.

I referred to the work being done in Harrow in London, which involves an innovative approach that includes providing help for people to stay in their own homes and other expert support for people in different types of accommodation. My hon. Friend is right—we must respond to the particular concerns or needs of an individual family and not expect one size or approach to suit all.

The Minister will know that the best-laid plans often fail because of a shortage of social workers and other professional staff, and the money to make necessary interventions to stop violence. What plans does she have to increase the number of social workers and the resources to pay for them? Will she tell us whether she intends specifically to target money for children who are victims of violence and live in refuges?

We have already increased our investment in the social work force, but I accept the hon. Lady's point that there is a shortage of social workers. One of the key challenges faced by our new Department is how to encourage more people into social work, train them effectively and retain them. One of my ambitions As to raise the status of and value given to social workers in society and ensure that the esteem in which they are held marries with the difficult job that we ask of them.

We ran a national campaign to recruit more social workers. We invested more money and I am pleased to say that the number of people training to be social workers has gone up by 6.5 per cent. We are moving in the right direction, but that does not take away from the challenges that the hon. Lady knows that we face in our communities and throughout the work force. That is one of the central issues that I must tackle. Children who have witnessed or experienced domestic violence must be a priority group on whom we focus resources.

I pay tribute to the excellent work of the Rising Sun women's refuge in my constituency, which I was privileged to visit last month. We must get to the roots underlying domestic violence. The role of substance abuse, in particular of alcohol and drugs, in domestic violence is large. Whatever the difficulties in reporting the issues of the huge recorded increase in violence against women, including domestic violence, in this morning's press, the figures for substance abuse—for example the double digit increase in several categories of drug abuse—are absolutely undeniable. I suggest to Ministers that one way to tackle the scourge of domestic violence and child abuse early in the process is to identify drug addicts and alcoholics at a young age, and make many more places available for treatment.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making those points. They resonate with the current situation and the Government's work on drugs, including investment in, and a strategy of, identifying drug misuse early and ensuring that it is effectively dealt with, both through the courts and through providing support and treatment to help addicts get off drugs.

I also alert the hon. Gentleman to the alcohol harm reduction strategy. Work is being carried out by the Prime Minister's strategy unit and will soon be published. It will provide a strategy on alcohol harm in society, a question that is at least as serious as that of drugs.

Order. I allowed the edges to be blurred slightly as we had time available. As we move on, I ask hon. Members to respect the content of the question as far as possible. Otherwise, I may be obliged to call them out of order.

Children (Parental Contacts)

8.

If the Government will make a statement on measures in place to ensure incidents of domestic violence are considered when decisions are taken on arrangements for children having contact with parents. [125470]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs
(Mr. David Lammy)

The Children Act 1989 ensures that the welfare of the child is paramount in all decisions on contact. Guidelines were issued in 2001 to ensure that incidents of domestic violence are considered when decisions on contact are taken. In addition, we will amend the contact and residency application forms to allow for details of domestic violence to be raised early on in the application process.

I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. However, like me, he will know that far too many children are killed during contact visits and mothers killed when an ex-partner comes to pick up a child for such a visit. Will my hon. Friend consider reviewing the guidelines and ensure that proper reviews take place into the deaths of children in such situations so that lessons can be learned and more robust procedures can be put in place? The deaths of young children and women in such situations must stop.

I know that my hon. Friend has tremendous experience in this area. We are surveying the guidelines—the last survey was conducted at the end of 2002—and we hope to come forward with initial results shortly. The survey on the practical effect of the guidelines comes to an end in 2004, but we know that they have already had an effect on case law and a Court of Appeal decision. Furthermore, we want to see a multi-agency approach to the guidelines to ensure that the situations that my hon. Friend outlined in her question are avoided as far as possible.

I am most grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for drawing our attention to not blurring the edges of these important questions. I had hoped to put this point on Question 1, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mrs. Fitzsimons), because the issue of guidance to judges on child contact is important but fairly specific. The hon. Member for Rochdale may be able to catch your eye, as the issue has crept into other questions, which has the effect of blunting the impact of the focus that we must give it.

The Green Paper on domestic violence states that the guidelines issued to courts on parental contact are being reviewed, and we have just heard the Minister say that they are being surveyed and that amendments may follow at the end of the monitoring period. However, that is against the context of a 50 per cent. increase in the number of contact orders since 1999—a startling increase from 41,862 to 61,356 last year. The surveying process is taking place against a background of a huge number of extra contact orders being granted.

As a constituency case revealed to me only this week, appeals by the non-violent parent for supervision to be in place before the contact goes ahead still seem to go unheeded. It is an incredible anomaly that a person convicted of a schedule 1 offence is not allowed to drive a school bus but can be granted unsupervised contact with the child that he or she has abused. This is a real issue of child protection: can we really afford to wait another year? What immediate action are the Government taking to protect children currently in such contact arrangements?

The hon. Lady makes her points with some passion, because she is right—this is important. However, we issued guidelines, which are having an effect, and it is right for the Government and the agencies involved to draw empirical evidence on that effect. The hon. Lady will also know that it is for the courts to determine the contact arrangements for children, which they will want to ensure take place in a safe environment. The circumstances will depend on the particular case.

We issued the guidelines relatively recently and we must now see that they have an effect. Although I understand the urgency with which the hon. Lady makes the point, it is right that the Government should act sensibly and properly on the basis—

This is an important issue, on which we do not want to make partisan points. [Interruption.]

I say to Opposition Members that it is this Government who have acted.[Interruption.]

Thank you for allowing me to respond, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The constituency case is urgent; it means that in 48 hours' time the mother will have to take the child to a centre with no supervision, to which circumstances the Government apparently have no answer. Since 1998, 15 children have been killed as a result of contact arrangements. That is quantifiable; it is a fact. A survey in 1999 found that 76 per cent. of children ordered by the courts to have contact with abusive or violent parents suffered in a variety of ways, ranging from physical and sexual abuse to neglect. Research undertaken by Christine Harrison of Warwick university shows that too often the views of the child who does not want to have contact with the violent or abusive parent are simply overridden. What assurance can the Minister for Children give that the wishes of the child in these contact arrangements will be given greater priority?

My hon. Friend tried to give some assurance. The hon. Lady was correct to say that we need to increase the number of supervised contact centres. That is an urgent issue that we hope to address in the context of how we look at, and take forward, the work that has been done by Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Services. We are already investing additional moneys: £2.5 million has gone in from the children's fund specifically to increase the number of supervised contact centres.

One of the advantages of the new organisation for which I now have responsibility is that we can start considering whether we can develop contact centres, for instance in some of the sure start centres and in other facilities that we provide for children, young people and families. [Interruption.] Indeed, if the hon. Lady will listen, I can tell her that I was at a meeting this morning at which we discussed what opportunity there would be in the new environment to get a coherence of services.

The hon. Lady raises an issue of huge importance and I draw her attention to the amendment in the Adoption and Children Act 2002. When consideration was taken of care and supervision orders, after the definition of "harm" in subsection (9) we inserted additional wording to include, for example, impairment suffered from seeing or hearing the ill treatment of another. We now need to put in place the regulations to support that amendment to ensure that we act appropriately in circumstances of domestic violence.

Existing legislation should ensure that those taking decisions on behalf of children listen to the children's voice. I take very seriously the concern expressed by the hon. Lady that that is not sufficiently taken into account and I will take it on board in the work that I do in future.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise to you for missing a previous opportunity to speak by a smidgeon as I made the mistake of going in to the Public Gallery rather than the Members' Entrance. I am grateful to you for giving me a second opportunity to speak.

Following the vexed issue of contact orders in the review, is the Department prepared to countenance that the presumption should be changed? Currently, the presumption is that it is in the children's best interests to have contact. However, I contend that it is not and the deaths of children and mothers also suggest that it is not. First, are the Government prepared to change that presumption in law? Secondly, while the review is being carried out, could the guidance ensure that if it cannot be guaranteed that there will be supervised, safe contact, the presumption should be that there is no contact?

My hon. Friend will know that debate on this issue is taking place not just in the United Kingdom, but in other parts of the world. In New Zealand, for example, the authorities make the presumption that my hon. Friend desires. However, the Children Act 1989 is the law in the UK and is based on the best interests of the child. The groups operating in this area take different sides in the debate, some wanting the presumption to be that there is no contact, and others wanting to ensure that there is contact. We will continue to listen to those points of view, but the evidence suggests that, wherever possible, contact with both parents is important and necessary, and supports the emotional development of the child. I accept that it is a difficult area, but that is the Government's current position on the matter.

I have to take issue with the Minister about his earlier reply. He claimed that the Government guidelines that were introduced in April 2001 were having an effect, but they are not. In 2001 only 713 contact orders were refused, and that number had decreased to 518 in 2002. I am therefore not sure where and in what way the guidelines are having an effect, and I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that. In a wider context, the Association of Chief Officers of Probation estimated that domestic violence is involved in 16,000 cases annually in which a court welfare report is ordered. Do the Government therefore believe it to be right that contact is refused in only 518 of those cases?

As I said, it is right that we act on the basis of the evidence put forward. The hon. Lady makes a relevant point. We will examine the matter and consider the analysis to see how we are progressing. It is also right that we invest extra funds in contact centres and work with the national association to ensure that standards and provision are improved, and that we can look forward to a better future.

The hon. Lady will also know that the development of contact centres occurred in the 1980s. We only reached a significant point in 1988, when the association was set up. She is right to say that the issue is urgent. The Government take it seriously I hope that those extra funds are beginning to have an effect, and I accept the hon. Lady's point about considering the guidance quickly.

I simply wish to add that all hon. Members recognise how difficult those judgments are for those who have to make them. On the one hand there are all the negative aspects arising from children having witnessed abuse or having been victims of abuse by the parent seeking contact, but on the other hand we know that maintaining contact with both parents is an important way of providing the best opportunity for a child to grow up healthy and well. Those two aspects must he balanced, and the answer must be in constant updating of the training of those who have to take those difficult decisions and, as the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) said, in emphasising the voice of the child in informing the decisions. I hope that no one goes away from this afternoon's discussions believing that these issues are simple and easy to resolve.

Police Powers

10.

What steps the Government are taking to give the police new powers to tackle domestic violence and bring more offenders to justice; and if the Government will make a statement. [125474]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
(Yvette Cooper)

The "Safety and Justice" consultation paper includes proposals to make common assault an arrestable offence, to criminalise the breach of civil orders and to extend the availability of restraining orders.

I thank the Minister for that response and welcome the extension of police powers. Tough measures are essential in this area and I believe that we will all welcome that extension.

Will the Minister and the Minister for Children recognise that using tough measures alone is like using a one-pronged fork—not highly effective? We need to add other forms of attack, one of which should be raising awareness among children, schoolteachers and parents. Will the Minister and her ministerial colleagues ensure that, in the same way that police powers have been extended, we also make available effective resources for groups such as the Bridgend domestic abuse forum and others throughout the country that do such good work in this area?

My hon. Friend is right. Clearly, the issue is not simply one of addressing and providing justice when domestic violence arises. It must also be a case of preventing domestic violence in the first place. That is why the consultation paper is divided into proposals, first, on improving prevention and, as my hon. Friend suggested, education; secondly, on greater protection and justice for victims of domestic violence; and thirdly, on support so that people can rebuild their lives.

My hon. Friend is right to say that the proposals need to be balanced. That balance is why the proposals in the consultation paper have been so widely welcomed by those working in domestic violence throughout the country. I pay tribute to the work of my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General in that regard.

Murder (Domestic Disputes)

11.

What proportion of the victims of murder were killed as a result of domestic disputes involving their spouse or partner in each of the last five years. [125475]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs
(Mr. David Lammy)

Homicide figures for all victims where the principal suspect was a partner or an ex-partner were: in 1997–98, 21 per cent.; 1998–99, 16 per cent.; 1999–2000, 16 per cent.; 2000–01, 16 per cent.; and, 2001–02, 18 per cent.

In view of the number of murders that are committed by one partner against another, does the Minister agree that it is tremendously important to maintain secrecy about the new details and, in particular, the new address of any family fleeing from violence? Will he make representations to the Lord Chancellor's Department following the case of one of my constituents who was involved in domestic violence? She wrote to me about the court case and said that the medical report compiled by the consultant paediatrician contained all their new details and secret address and was forwarded to her former husband. Does the Minister agree that that is outrageous and that it would be a good idea to make representations to the Lord Chancellor to ensure that it does not happen again?

I certainly undertake, through the Lord Chancellor, to look into that case. General lessons may well be drawn from what happened.

Has any assessment been made of the percentage of cases of murder as a result of domestic violence that involve asylum seekers? Many asylum seekers suffer stress because of their situation and the trauma that they may have gone through. Has any assessment been made of the effect that that might have?

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a precise answer, but I will find out and ensure that he is informed. I can tell the House that another proposal in "Safety and Justice" is for multi-agency reviews whenever there is a homicide resulting from domestic violence so that all agencies operating at local level—the police, local authorities and so on—can learn lessons from that horrendous event to ensure that as far as possible action is taken to prevent such events happening again.

In the last five years for which figures are available, 499 suspects were indicted for killing their partner or ex-partner, of which 443–89 per cent.—were convicted of homicide.

Will one of the ministerial team comment on the role of male perpetrator programmes in getting to the root of the problem?

I do not know whether I am the most qualified to answer that question. We are analysing a number of programmes operating in, for example, north America. If we find that they are successful, we will implement them. We think that it is possible to run some of those programmes and for them to have a positive impact. Where possible, we will of course try to implement that approach.

We do not have to look so far afield for help with those perpetrator programmes. I commend to the Minister a project by Probation West Midlands, which recognises the fundamental injustice in domestic violence. So often, it is the victim who must move out of the family home, with the loss of the security and assets that go with it, while the perpetrator can remain there. Recognising that fundamental injustice, Probation West Midlands has made provision in its probation hostels to remove the perpetrator and to start on the probation programme. Is that not something that, without having to cross the Atlantic, we might investigate in a little more depth and roll out with more effect?

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her advice and I will certainly find out more about that scheme and other programmes. The point that she makes about the victim being forced to move out is important. It is one area, which again concerns safety and justice, on which we are consulting. Wherever possible the victim should remain at home within familiar surroundings and the perpetrator should be removed.

With reference to a previous answer, we want to ensure that, where people are identified as perpetrators, we have a pro-arrest approach. We are ensuring that common assault is an arrestable offence, so that perpetrators are arrested and removed and victims can remain in safety in their homes.

Order. We are still at an experimental stage with cross-cutting questions and not everyone has settled down and got it right, whether they are Back Benchers putting questions or officials advising Ministers on answers. It is a matter of finding the subjects that lend themselves most to these debates and then all Members will understand the type of question intended to cut across from one Department to another.

As I have said before, I hope that hon. Members will write to me with their comments on the debates. We have had five altogether, on different subjects, and we must consider what are the best subjects and put them on a regular rotational basis so that the debates work more smoothly. I have tried to bring in more informality, with follow-up questions from both sides, but within the scope of an hour that is often difficult to do. We were assisted today by pure chance, as some of the questions were withdrawn at the last minute. I thank everyone for entering in the spirit of the debate. It has been a useful innovation and we can hone it and make it an effective procedure.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have just answered most of the questions that I intended to ask, but bearing in mind that the recess is coming up I am keen to learn about cross-cutting questions. Can you point out where I can find the information in writing, so that I can mug up on them during the recess and we can finally hone the debates? Or do we have a situation rather like those adverts on TV, where cross-cutting questions build week by week into exciting new parliamentary procedure?

Modesty forbids, but I made a lengthy statement at the beginning of the first debate, so the hon. Gentleman may find it useful to consult Hansard to see what I said.

3.28 pm

Sitting suspended.

Financing Development

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.— [Mr. Ainger]

3.30 pm

The latest human development report was published last week. It states

"The Millennium Development Goals present the world with daunting challenges. Unless there is radical improvement, too many countries will miss the targets—with disastrous consequences for the poorest and the most vulnerable of their citizens. Yet today the world has an unprecedented opportunity to deliver on the commitment to eradicating poverty. For the first time there is genuine consensus among rich and poor countries that poverty is the world's problem. And it is together that the world must fight it."
Poverty is indeed the world's problem.

Today's debate takes place on the last parliamentary day before the recess. Only a small number of hon. Members are present, but they have the ability to contribute to this important discussion. I want to take the opportunity to reflect on where developed and developing countries have come from in trying to do something about the problem and what we have yet to do if we are to achieve the millennium development goals. The response of the rich world to the task of development—in essence the answer to the question, "What can we do to help poor people in poor countries?"—has evolved substantially in the past 30 years as we have come better to understand what works and what does not.

For example, we have realised that the 1970s ethos of funding big capital infrastructure projects is not enough to kick-start developing countries' economies to reduce poverty. The focus on technical assistance projects, which were a feature of the 1980s and 1990s, to build capacity in developing countries is also not the sole answer, because the limitations of the project approach to development have become clear. In the cases of health and education—this is true of other public services—long-term, recurrent funding is needed for teachers, books, doctors, nurses and drugs. By their very nature, projects are not always designed to address such long-term needs.

We have learned that conflict kills development as well as killing people. Conflict is the ultimate failure of governance. We appreciate the importance of sound policies and the right environment for development prospects. We have come better to understand—we have debated the issue in both this Chamber and the House—that if the world trading system is unfair, it is more difficult for countries to share in global prosperity and therefore to fund development. We have developed, particularly in the past five years, a broad consensus that development agencies must work more closely to support poverty reduction strategies, which should be led by developing countries themselves. In other words, we must back the judgment of the Governments of developing countries as they take their countries forward.

We have seen the emergence of global initiatives supported through funds, which can help to bring effort, enthusiasm and money. However, such initiatives must support country-led development efforts rather than making them more difficult. For the first time, we have a clear international consensus on what we want to achieve in the form of the millennium development goals, which were agreed at the millennium summit in 2000. Those goals will measure our progress towards eliminating poverty and improving the well-being and life chances of the world's poorest people.

The human development report, which was published the week before last, makes it clear that without rapid progress the MDGs will not be met, which means that developed nations must provide a higher volume of government assistance and that the assistance we provide must be more effective. We need to do more on debt relief. We must do more to integrate developing countries into the world trading system.

We have made some progress. It is important that we acknowledge that, not least because it shows that progress is possible, and that is needed to encourage us to do more. As a result of last year's spending review, the UK's official development assistance will increase by £1.5 billion to reach 0.4 per cent. of national income by 2005–06. That is the biggest ever rise in UK aid: a 93 per cent. real-terms increase since 1997 after a generation in which UK aid fell as a proportion of national wealth.

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Several countries have also taken the step of setting a date when they would reach the target of 0.7 per cent. of gross domestic product devoted to aid. Is that something that the Government are considering?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for asking that question. The Government remain committed to achieving the 0.7 per cent. target. The process by which we reach it is determined by successive spending reviews and we have a commitment to reach the 0.4 per cent. figure to which I referred a moment ago. That compares with the 0.26 per cent. figure that we inherited when we came into government in 1997. The important thing is that we move in the right direction and we need to make further progress. I acknowledge that point and I look forward to having the opportunity to make that progress. As a result of that increase in UK aid expenditure, we will be able by 2006 to talk about a ?1 billion bilateral programme for Africa, which is the continent in which we need to make the biggest progress if we are to have any prospect of meeting millennium development goals.

The second change that we have made to improve the effectiveness of our aid spending has been to untie 100 per cent. of our aid. By 2006, 90 per cent. of the bilateral spending of the Department for International Development will be focused on low-income countries where it can be most effective. We are pressing other donors, including the multilateral institutions, to direct their aid in line with best practice.

There has also been progress internationally. Last year in Monterrey, and then in Johannesburg, the international community announced the first increase in official development aid for 20 years, with $12 billion a year of extra funding pledged by 2006. Members of the European Union are set to increase the average proportion of gross national income given to 0.39 per cent. by 2006. However, in respect of EU development spending, we are all working hard to increase the proportion of European Community overseas development assistance that goes to low-income countries. That figure stood at only 38 per cent. in 2000 and it rose to 44 per cent. in 2001. We are waiting for the figures for 2002—the early indications are that it will increase again, but we still have a long way to go.

While we are on the subject of EU aid, will the Minister tell us whether any progress has been made in the targeting of EU aid towards the poorest countries ? Does he think that that process has become more efficient, so that the money is processed more quickly allowing projects to go ahead?

On the first point, the figure of 38 per cent., which was the low point of focus on low-income countries, has increased to 44 per cent. We hope that there will be a further increase when the figures for 2002 are published, but that is a long way from the objective that we have set, which is a target of 70 per cent. We need to continue to have that argument with our European colleagues because it is right and proper that we should channel European resources to the countries where we can make the biggest difference in relieving poverty.

On the hon. Lady's second question, the honest answer is that some progress has been made but there is still some way to go. The process of "deconcentration", as it is described in European parlance, is devolution of responsibility for programmes from Brussels to in-country, which reflects very much the process that DFID has been going through. One would hope that decisions taken on the ground would lead to better outcomes than decisions taken from afar. However, we must maintain our interest in the process because a significant proportion of our aid budget is channelled through the European Union.

The heavily indebted poor countries initiative has been a success, both in delivering relief and in ensuring that relief is channelled to poverty reduction. To date, it has resulted in $60 billion worth of debt relief, although we need to provide additional relief for countries as they exit HIPC if their debt continues to be unsustainable due to external factors beyond their control. We must make progress on trade, which is crucial to achieving the millennium development goals, particularly in agriculture, as three quarters of the world's poor live in rural areas.

At Doha, the international community said that it intended to put development at the heart of world trade negotiations. We are putting a great deal of effort into trying to get that right, but progress has been too slow. When we meet in Cancun in September, the responsibility for progress will clearly lie on the developed countries, which are the main perpetrators of an unfair trading system. The EU's package of common agricultural policy reforms is a first step towards making global agricultural trade fairer. We now look to others to make similar moves as we approach the Cancun negotiations.

Having said all that, the report of the high-level panel on financing for development, which is chaired by Ernesto Zedillo, estimated that at least $50 billion more in aid would be required every year to achieve the millennium goals. As a matter of urgency, we must look at ways in which the benefits of existing and future aid pledges can be maximised.

All the things that I have described are important in supporting and encouraging development. Aid makes an important contribution. For example, it has contributed to a doubling of school enrolments and a halving of infant mortality since 1970. That goes back to the point that I made earlier about progress. Recent successes in Africa show that high aid levels can provide major returns: Uganda received more than 20 per cent. of its GDP in aid in the early 1990s and has achieved decade-long growth rates of more than 7 per cent. and reduced the proportion of people living below the poverty line by more than 20 per cent.

Of course, it is equally true that there have been cases where aid has been badly used, on occasion supporting corrupt regimes or wasted on misconceived projects, but countries with fair and transparent policies have a greater ability to use aid funds effectively and make good use of additional aid.

There are several ideas in the international system about ways in which we might increase the amount of aid, which we must do if we are to make progress towards the millennium development goals by 2015. One example is the Tobin tax, which is an interesting idea. Unfortunately, without universal support it would not work. Another idea is the resumption of general special drawing rights allocations, with developed countries giving their share to developing countries, but there are difficulties with that proposal as well.

Earlier, I mentioned the 0.7 per cent. target. Although most donor countries are committed to reaching 0.7 per cent. in the long term, the global level at present is only 0.2 per cent. If we are to make progress towards the targets, we cannot wait for all countries to achieve 0.7 per cent. We must increase the amount of aid now.

The Minister swiftly moved off the subject of the Tobin tax. We are always told that it will not work unless it is applied universally. Can he tell us whether international bankers and the International Monetary Fund—or whoever must be involved—are actually talking about it? Is there any possibility that it will ever happen?

I am not sure that I can answer the hon. Lady's last question about whether the Tobin tax will ever happen. My assessment is the one that I have just given: it is an interesting idea that dates back quite a long time, as the hon. Lady knows. It has been dusted down in the context of the debate about the need for additional aid, but in theory it relies for its success on everyone signing up to its operation, and an assessment of the debate thus far would show that we are not in that position. That is why I pointed out that it is unlikely to offer a solution to the problem that we are debating this afternoon, as it would not work unless everybody signed up.

On a recent visit to the United Nations, about a month and a half ago, the delegation from Parliament met the director of the economic and development section. I put the question whether the 'Tobin tax was a realistic proposal and he definitely rejected that as the way forward.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that information. It reinforces my point; we need to focus our efforts and attention on the things that are on the table that might enable us to increase the amount of aid available. That brings me to the idea, launched by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of the international finance facility. The facility is designed to try to achieve the millennium development goals by doubling aid for the world's poorest countries from $50 billion a year today to $100 billion a year in the years up to 2015, or in other words to meet the gap identified by Zedillo. It would do that by delivering resources up front over the next few years when they will have most impact on achieving the targets. On the basis of long-term, binding donor commitments from the richest countries, some of which have already been made, the facility would be able to lever in additional money from the international capital markets to double, in effect, the development aid. In other words, the international finance facility is intended to bridge the gap in development financing between the resources that have already been pledged and the additional funds that are now recognised as urgently needed to meet the MDGs.

Of course, we have a responsibility to ensure that development money will be used effectively, and under the proposal the developed world would make a commitment to provide long-term, untied and effective aid as investment to the countries that need it most. We see the facility as an integral part of a new agreement between developed and developing countries, with each country tackling corruption, promoting stability and agreeing the necessary transparency in economic and corporate policies to achieve that goal; we see it, too, as part of the country-owned poverty reduction strategies, involving agreement of clear and costed plans for education, health and economic capacity, so that development aid can be seen not as compensation for past failures but as investment in future prosperity and success.

For our part, we must continue our efforts with other donor partners to ensure that aid is used for poverty reduction, that it is not tied to contracts using suppliers from the donor country and that it is provided in predictable amounts so that Governments can make plans on the basis of receiving that aid. In the case of the international finance facility, it would need to be disbursed to a range of recipient countries so that no more than 5 per cent. of the total amount of finance raised through the international finance facility would go to any one country. Of course, aid would be targeted at low-income countries.

The concept of the international finance facility offers a number of advantages. It focuses on the finance necessary to help achieve the MDGs. It is founded on developed countries' long-term commitments to the countries that are striving to achieve those goals. It would bridge the gap by leveraging the long-term commitments, enabling us to move more quickly towards the target, which each donor country could achieve by contributing 0.7 per cent. of gross domestic product in development aid. One would not have to wait for the 0.7 per cent. because we could increase the value of aid that people are prepared to give, and of course the international finance facility could deploy a large amount of aid over the next few years, when it would have most impact.

At the Evian summit last month, Heads of State called for a report on the international finance facility for September. We are now working with French colleagues on that, looking closely at the question of commitments against needs, finalising an in-depth analysis on the case for bringing aid forward and some of the technical and financial aspects of the proposal that still need to be worked through. One of the most encouraging points to emerge from all the discussions on the idea of the international finance facility in past months is that there is a general acceptance—this takes us back to the point about interest in ideas that can make a difference—of the need to examine the proposal. Everybody recognises the need to make progress, not least in the poorest countries, which have expressed their support, because it provides an opportunity to take a significant step towards meeting the millennium development goals. We must not miss that opportunity for the simple reason that the human development report reminds us that time is extremely short, and that a great many people depend on us.

3.50 pm

This is a very intimate little debate—almost a private audience with the Minister. We thank him for spending time with us this afternoon when he has other things to do. It is a useful opportunity to have this private audience with the Minister, because I need to get a few things out of my head before the recess and to ask some questions. It will not be a long speech, but it will be reflective and hopefully the Minister will respond at the end. I am not clear how we are going to do this.

Order. With permission, the Minister may wind up the debate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

The Minister mentioned the millennium development goals and suggested that progress had been made on them. I was extremely depressed by the departmental report, as I am sure was the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman). On page 72 in particular, there are graphs showing the total lack of progress towards millennium development goals in sub-Saharan Africa. It is, indeed, a depressing picture. When we talk about progress, we must always allow for middle-income countries such as Indonesia and India that may be making some progress, but in Africa we have a serious problem, which is worsening. That needs to be emphasised over and over again.

I will start with the international finance facility because I am an old cynic. I appreciate that developed countries all over the world should give 0.7 per cent. of their gross national product and I agree with the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) that we should set a date by which we are to achieve that. We should all tighten up that target. We talk about millennium goals, so let us get on with it and have a goal for when we will achieve that 0.7 per cent. worldwide.

Something like the international finance facility is introduced, everyone agrees that it is a great idea. I do not totally understand the high finance of it, but I understand that donor Governments will give money to the finance facility, which will then issue bonds to developing countries, which in some magical way will be worth more than just giving them the money. I am prepared to accept that on trust. What worries me is not the mechanics of the facility, but whether developed donor countries will actually give the money in the first place. We do have that problem. The global health fund was a similar initiative in which donor countries contributed to the fund, but there is a shortfall. The second payment, which is due soon, is not yet fully funded.

The financial wizardry to get the money to developing countries may he ingenious, but that is no help if we do not get it in the first place. That is my great concern. Another such example is the pledges that were made at Tokyo to reconstruct Afghanistan and how slow that money was to come in. Afghanistan is still struggling to come out of the terrible conflict and poverty that it was in. It is all very well having such schemes, but they all boil down to the fact that donor Governments have to cough up the money in the first place. I am extremely sceptical about that.

I suspect that everyone in the Chamber has some sympathy for the hon. Lady's argument, but surely the other side of that argument is that any additional pressures that can be brought to bear on the needs of Africa and other less well-developed countries through an international finance facility would increase the overall amount of aid given by the first world, which has been reluctant to increase its overall aid to the 0.7 per cent. target, as she said.

Of course I agree that any initiative is worth while. I have been my party's international development spokesman for six years and was the first to congratulate the Government on what they have done about debt relief and progressing towards development goals. There is no question about that; I simply question the ability of donor Governments to provide the finance that is needed.

There is also some sleight of hand in what is happening. We hear that we have made progress on debt relief and that a global health fund has been set up. We are to have an international finance facility. Such news is always sold to us as if it is a new initiative, but everything is within the 0.4 per cent. of gross national product—I think that that is the figure that the Government are aiming at—that we donate as international aid. Nevertheless, it is of course welcome.

I want to talk about the lack of progress in trade reforms—the fiddling around at the edges, with talk about new issues and attendance at the Cancun talks. For goodness'sake, when will we do something about American agricultural subsidies and the common agricultural policy? Nothing would make more difference to poverty, particularly in some African countries, than doing something about the west's subsidies and protectionist regimes. Attention is always diverted. We talk about other issues and other things that need to be done. We must return to the basic problem that subsidies given to very rich countries for their produce, and the west's barriers against developing countries' exports, are one of the chief problems for developing countries. Wherever I have been in the world in the past couple of years, people have said, "Trade, not aid." Yes, they like the aid, but they need trade—a way of making their own living. I urge the Minister to put that issue at the top of his agenda.

What I am now going to say, briefly, is almost heresy. I shall talk about foreign investment in developing countries. We are all constantly bombarded—by the anti-globalisation movements and people who think that multinational companies are the wickedest things ever to have walked the face of the earth—with the idea that we must constantly campaign against private investment and privatisation of anything in developing countries. We need to rethink. People who campaign against multinational companies also need to rethink what they are saying.

I am not an economist or a historian, and the comparison that I want to make is probably not a good one, but back in the 19th century in Britain people were very poor; they suffered from poor health and there was little education. Where did health care and education come from? It came from big business, which made money for this country—by whatever means and I accept that that is an issue. Eventually, philanthropists emerged from many big businesses and decided that they had to do something about the state of the work force: they had to improve health care and education. That is how we became healthy, rich and powerful.

Yet we expect developing countries to concentrate on health and education before they have been through the stages that we went through in Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries. We are somehow making them do it the wrong way round and rightly so, because we feel guilty when people say that this country became rich on the backs of developing countries and therefore we should be making their progress much faster. We must bear in mind that it was big business and big businessmen who helped this country to reach the position that it is in now.

I want the Government to take a hard look at multinationals and how they operate in developing countries. When I first took over this portfolio, there were campaigns about Shell, Rio Tinto, Nestlé and the big drug companies and how wicked they were. All those companies are now getting a social conscience. At the very least, they are producing nice, glossy brochures that tell us all about their education schemes, health schemes and what they are doing for their workers in countries where they extract minerals or whatever they do. At least they are producing brochures. They did not do that 10 years ago.

The hon. Member for Meriden and I heard about the African Comprehensive HIV/AIDS Partnerships, or ACHAP, scheme in Botswana—I sent the Minister details about it and I do hope that he received them—where big business in the shape of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, a charity and a non-governmental organisation in the shape of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, if one can call Bill Gates such a thing, and the Botswana Government are getting together to deal with the AIDS crisis in Botswana. How many more of those schemes can we cook up? There must be many schemes on many fronts through which we can harness the power of multinational companies and enable them to see that they will benefit, become richer and have a better work force by improving the health and the education of the countries in which they operate. The scheme was developed in Botswana because it is losing so many skilled people, who are dying as a result of the AIDS epidemic and it cannot afford to keep training new staff. Big business has seen that it is worth while investing in health care and in the prevention of AIDS. I hope that the Minister can deal with that question, however difficult it is.

Before we leave the subject, I must point out that all sorts of initiatives are needed to encourage transparency in big business. As we heard, there is a movement towards that, so that concessions given to developing countries by multinationals working in them will be made transparent. We also know that those multinational companies have huge management expertise, so if they are in some sort of partnership with the Government of the country in which they work, they can help with management expertise and capacity building.

I also make another plea for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development guidelines, about which we hear so much, to be made more legally binding and for them not simply to be a voluntary code. I would also occasionally like to see a few investigations into and prosecutions of companies that have broken those guidelines. There is a mechanism for that to happen. I have inquired about it, but no cases are ever brought. It is time that they were.

Please let us embrace globalisation and multinational companies, if it is possible to do so. Let us also try to bring their huge profits and resources into the development of the poorest countries, instead of casting them mentally out into the wilderness as wicked things about which we do not want to know.

I have "AIDS" written on my notes, but I do not believe that we need to have a debate about AIDS on this occasion. We all know that it is one of the greatest problems faced in development, particularly in Africa. I add to that the problem of malaria, which is a poor sister but is still probably the biggest killer. I recently met people from a non-governmental organisation called Medicines for Malaria Venture, which sounds very much like the international AIDS vaccine initiative about which we have all heard so much. Again, the idea is to try to harness the drug companies and the research facilities to do something about malaria in the same way that the AIDS vaccine initiative is doing something about the AIDS epidemic. The problem is not a priority for the developed world: nobody dies of malaria here unless they have been abroad and not taken the right precautions. However, malaria is a huge killer in the third world, and it is another issue that needs to be addressed.

There has been progress on debt relief, although there needs to be much more and I ask the Minister in passing whether there have been any more thoughts on Iraq's situation. Iraq's development and progress will be stopped if it has to start paying back all the huge debts that it owes. That debt can be classified as odious debt—I hope that most people would say that Saddam Hussein was an odious person.

Before I sit down I shall make two other points. I would love to know how much progress is being made on micro-credit—I have saved up the annual report for the summer recess, because I have not read it properly and in detail yet. I am interested in micro-credit, which is a form of financing for development that helps the very poorest people at the grass roots, as does what I call alternative technology. When we go abroad we all see wonderful schemes involving treadle pumps—water pumps operated by children running round roundabouts—and other examples of small technology, as opposed to huge hydroelectric schemes.

The Grameen bank harnessed micro-credit and made it much more widespread, so is there any way that such simple technology, which is the obvious answer in many places throughout the third world, can be similarly harnessed and taken over by a multinational company or organisation? That way, when the hon. Member for Meriden and I go abroad, instead of seeing one or two dinky little pumps working in a remote village somewhere in Africa, we could say, "Yes, there are millions of these all over Africa, providing the clean water that people need."

Finally, every time I speak in a debate on financing development I make the same plea. I am still in total and utter confusion about the various lines of development funding and I came across another one the other day called the African and Asian development performance funds, under which it seems that money is made available for good performance—like foundation third-world countries. If such countries do well and get three stars, they become foundation developing countries and, apparently, get extra money from those funds. I would love the Department for International Development to say how many lines of funding there are and how they interlink.

4.8 pm

I am sorry in a way, because this is an unprecedented occasion for me—I do not think that I have ever been in Westminster Hall for a debate in which there are only three speeches from Front Benchers. Perhaps it is just as well that the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) has gone. All that I would say to the Government is that timetabling a debate on such an important subject on the very last afternoon of term will create difficulties for hon. Members who perhaps feel the call of the recess very strongly. However, what we lack in quantity, we shall endeavour to make up for in quality this afternoon.

In my defence, when the debate was scheduled, we were all confident that we would still be here contemplating messages from the other place.

In the end, I suppose that the allocation of time usually rests in the hands of what are euphemistically known as the usual channels. However, given the importance of the subject, I am sorry that it has been left right until the end of term.

I cannot disguise the fact that I come to our debate about financing development with a heavy heart. I spent the morning dealing with the tragic issue of the execution of street children in Latin America. When one analyses the underlying causes, one finds all too often that, as with so many shocking humanitarian problems, it is abject poverty that gives rise to such misery. We therefore supported the Government in giving the Department's work a poverty reduction focus in the International Development Act 2002. None the less, the fact that the UN estimates that there are approximately 1 million street children in the world demonstrates that the Government should attach greater priority to the issue.

The Department spent £2.4 million on producing a report about street children, but that has so far made no appreciable difference to the security of such children. I hope that the Government's budgetary support to affected countries will eventually trickle down, as the Government hope that it will, so that children can be safer on the streets. So far, however, there is little evidence that that approach to the problem is working.

No one who has spoken in the debate—there are only three of us—is under any illusion about the fact that the lack of finance for development is one of the main reasons why countries are held back. I hope, therefore, that our debate, on this sultry July afternoon, on the last day of the parliamentary term, is not simply intended to give the Government a platform from which to re-announce the benefits of the international financing facility. I have some reservations about that measure, which have been articulated by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Dr. Tonge), and I shall return to them.

The fact is that the developing world is a long way off obtaining the finance that it needs. The announcement of the international finance facility was welcomed by the Conservative party, but it will remain only an idea unless other countries contribute. It is gratifying to hear that France is co-operating with us again and considering the proposal, which would allow the poorest countries of the world to attract private investment. However, when the Prime Minister introduced it to other world leaders at the G8 summit in Evian, it was greeted with scepticism by, among others, the United States and Germany.

The Government might say that simply getting the issue on the agenda was an achievement, and that much is perhaps true, given the amount of bad blood between those countries following the war in Iraq. However, to echo the words of the director of the Save the Children Fund:
"Everything depends on securing real commitment from G7 countries that is translated into a concrete plan of action."
We wish the Government success in getting other countries to co-operate and, most importantly, to contribute. That must happen if the idea is to fly.

Development assistance suffers particularly from the political pitfall of unfulfilled pledges. Yesterday, I had a visit from Nirj Deva, the Conservative spokesman on international development in the European Parliament. He showed me what was, I suppose, a league table of donors' performance on the pledges that they made in Tokyo to help with the reconstruction of Afghanistan. It is significant that the hon. Member for Richmond Park and I should both alight on how the world's richest nations have delivered on their pledges to help one of the world's poorest nations. To take one of the most startling examples of underperformance, only $35 million of the $500 million pledged by the Arab Development Bank has been forthcoming. Another example of rich donors' failure to deliver on their promises is the fact that only a fraction of the more than $900 million that was pledged at the last donor roundtable for Burundi has been delivered. That is indicative of an underlying problem, and we cannot skate away from it if we are to talk about financing development.

Progress towards achieving the millennium development goals is being held back by a lack of finance. The World Bank estimated that an additional $40 billion to $60 billion is needed to fulfil the millennium development goals. That is over and above the current contribution of $57 billion, so it is effectively calling for a doubling in funding for the goals to be achieved. That probably led to the Government hitting on the idea of the international finance facility, but without the political will, there will be no guarantees.

There are steps that the Government can take to amend and improve existing financial measures, even while we live in hope that the international finance facility comes to something. The hon. Member for Richmond Park mentioned debt relief, and there is no room for complacency. Compared with the high expectation in the millennium year of how many countries would be relieved of their debts, the fact is that—unless the total has gone up—only eight countries have successfully completed the process.

There are problems with the process. It is too slow, complicated and secretive, which does not help the relationship between poor and rich nations. As I have said before, the sustainability index on which the debt relief process is based needs to be reworked. It does not cope with exogenous shocks to economies, which so many countries have faced recently. When we look to relieve a country of its debts, we try to put it on a sustainable footing, but the sustainability calculation is heavily dependent on the country's export earnings, and nothing in the formula takes into account, for example, the recent collapse in commodity prices.

I also remain sceptical about how well relieved even those eight countries are. We can take a snapshot and say that we have relieved the developing countries of their debts, based on a sustainability index and their export earnings two or three years ago, but the question is whether they are sustainable today. I remain worried about the rigidity of the sustainability calculation.

AIDS has an enormous impact on the capacity of the poorest countries to achieve sustainability. I have said that before, but I am not aware that anything has been done. With AIDS infection rates as high as 40 per cent. in Botswana and at an average of 25 per cent. of the population in sub-Saharan Africa, how sustainable will those economies be in future? We know that the disease is taking out the most economically active members of society—those who will contribute the most to their country's economic growth—but nothing in the debt relief formula takes into account the impact of HIV/ AIDS. That weakness in the calculation worries me, as does the morality of recovering debts from nations with such high rates of HIV/AIDS infection. The primary call on much of their resources must be on treating the sick and dying, trying to sustain life and achieving sustainability. I have deep concerns about the situation.

The hon. Lady spoke about the serious implications of the current world trade negotiations, and when we talk about financing for development, we cannot scuttle away from that issue. Progress on the Doha round has been deeply disappointing. We had a separate debate specifically on it, and I remain deeply concerned that the much-trumpeted CAP reform deal has failed to deliver what would most help the developing world and particularly sub-Saharan Africa: the removal of agricultural subsidies that make it impossible for the poorest countries to compete on a level playing field with the developed world.

It has been said, rightly, that Europe and America are equal offenders, but it is not satisfactory for us to blame each other as being equally guilty and then do nothing about it. I found it quite encouraging that President Chirac initially led the way by saying that he would support the cancellation of export subsidies in relation to sub-Saharan Africa, but he has withdrawn from that lead on the CAP reform deal, so it has not happened. I urge the Minister to use our recovering relations with France to revisit that proposal, because our two nations, with their long history of involvement in sub-Saharan Africa, may understand better than many others what a difference it would make to that whole continent if we reformed our agricultural subsidies.

Does the hon. Lady think that if Britain had vigorously supported the offer made by the French to drop EU subsidies in relation to African countries, it might have made more progress?

We all know how the voting system works in the European context, but if two of the largest voting nations put their weight behind such a proposal, they would at least form a blocking minority. That would have significant weight, and it would have had a real impact on the outcome of those CAP reform negotiations.

The matter that I cannot fathom from the Government's explanation of what happened during those negotiations relates to the fact that the industry—our farmers—is willing to move on that issue. The CAP was intended to provide our farmers with a reasonable income, but it no longer serves them as it was intended to do. We all know that, these days, farmers do not have reasonable levels of income; otherwise, they would not be leaving the industry. Because the CAP no longer serves our farmers, they are willing to move on the issue, so who are we trying to help by retaining the export subsidy system?

The truth is that, so often, export subsidies help the middle man. They help those who make the money on agricultural produce before it reaches the supermarket shelf. Those interests seem to be regarded above those of our farmers or, indeed, farmers in the developing world, so I emphasise again the central importance of the export subsidy issue.

Before I leave the subject of financing development and its interrelationship with world trade, I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the proposal made by the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), on the advocacy fund. The sole purpose of that fund was to give developing nations a resource to enable them to be represented at trade negotiations by experts of equal calibre to our own. In practice, however, they are not. The figures are startling. At the most recent trade round, the EU had 582 representatives, whereas very small countries, such as Haiti, had none. The purpose of the advocacy fund is to ensure that developing countries are properly represented.

A counter-proposal from the Government is to give the Governments of developing countries budgetary support, so that they have the funds to provide representatives, but given all the competing priorities that those countries have to deal with, when the budgetary support comes through, it is not used for that purpose. Given the urgency of the negotiations in Cancun in September, where no time can be wasted, surely my party's proposal on the advocacy fund could be revisited.

The situation is all the more urgent because, as I was disturbed to learn from the Foreign Ministers of Tanzania, Malawi and Ghana at a recent meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on Africa, there is huge pressure on African, Caribbean and Pacific countries to be fragmented and not to speak with one voice at the trade negotiations. Yielding to that pressure would immensely weaken their position.

The advocacy fund could be used to provide experts of equal calibre to those who represent the rich nations to ensure that the ACP countries hold together as a cohesive group. There is no question that the European Union and the United States, as trading blocs, wield enormous influence in trade negotiations, against which fragmented developing countries find it very difficult to hold their own. I want to impress on the Minister that he should look again at our proposal.

I was encouraged to hear the hon. Member for Richmond Park speak about private investments. I do not think it was a heresy; the hon. Lady would expect someone from the Conservative party to understand the benefit of what she described—the importance of private financial investment in developing countries. The reality is that the scale of investment enormously overshadows our overseas development assistance; it is of huge significance. The Minister attended the same all-party parliamentary group as I did, and it was refreshing to speak directly to the representatives of developing countries and to hear from them what they want. They very much want private sector investment; it is important to put that on the record. It is not something that is being unwillingly inflicted on them, which is the impression that the anti-capitalist lobby sometimes tries to create.

Genuine private sector investment, responsibly done, can have a huge transforming power on development for good. I emphasise that it must be responsibly done, because we all understand the historical pitfalls and mistakes, and we do not want them to be repeated. However, the Minister might take one thing on board and actively promote it: he might recall that at the Rio plus 10 summit in Johannesburg, the London principles for corporate social responsibility were announced. They were completely lost in the media coverage of the negative aspects of that summit and its failure to make any real progress, but there were constructive, homegrown, City of London-based proposals for actively encouraging corporate social responsibility in relation to developing countries.

That was a significant development, because in the world stock markets there is much more interest by analysts in how the private sector conducts itself in developing countries; that is healthy. For example, every company quoted on the Dow Jones index is analysed according to an index of socially responsible investment—the Dow Jones SRI. Companies cannot opt out or in; if they want to be quoted on that stock market index they have to undergo a process of analysis. There is something similar in the City of London—the FTSE 4 Good index—although it is a voluntary process of analysis. However, companies that want to be seen to be playing a socially responsible part in development seek to be assessed according to whether they operate in a socially responsible way in developing countries.

Increasingly around the world, analysts consider matters that go beyond whether there is an entry in the company's glossy annual report. The process of analysis is detailed and in depth, and the really good thing is that because there is a variety of indices on the stock markets for assessing socially responsible investment, and a degree of competition between stock markets to find out how companies are operating, the different processes of analysis get to the bottom of what is going on. I am in favour of there being more than one index, because it is much more likely that bad practice will be picked up if experts analyse the different ways in which companies conduct themselves.

This is fascinating stuff and I congratulate the hon. Lady. I am enjoying her contribution. Could those stock market indices be combined with the OECD guidelines that we have heard so much about? There is no compulsion on companies at present to obey the guidelines; they are merely advisory. Could they be combined with listing on the stock market? I do not understand how these things work.

I am not a technical expert in this area. However, my instinctive feeling is that they are completely different tools, but they may have a similar effect. I support the view that the OECD guidelines must be given more teeth. It is fine to sign up to these things, but if guidelines do not have any impact on the conduct of companies, how valuable are they?

The indices of corporate social responsibility are powerful because they affect the amount of investment that companies attract on the stock market. Companies are quoted on the stock market in order to attract investment so that they can expand and grow. If they have a black mark on the index of socially responsible investment, they do not attract investors. Originally, the concept was built up because many people—I count myself among them—want to have confidence when they invest in a company that it conducts itself in an ethical manner, especially in very poor countries.

This is one of the fastest growth markets for investment. It is no longer only the specialists who want to make ethical investments. A failure in terms of socially responsible investment has a wider impact on the market of potential investors in the companies concerned. The index is therefore a powerful tool, but it is different from the guidelines. However, those tools have a similar aim.

Another important subject is financing for development in the context of aid effectiveness. We all accept that developing countries are held back by lack of finance. All three of us—a select band—are politicians and we know that one of the problems in this area is that Governments of whatever persuasion have to make difficult choices about how to disburse public money—taxpayers' money and money levied in other ways over which the Government of the day have jurisdiction.

Overseas development assistance has to compete with a lot of other priorities, all of which are screaming for the Government's attention, and it has been difficult to meet the United Nations 0.7 per cent. target for ODA spending. All three of us are committed to achieving that target. It is depressing that we spend more as a nation on ice cream than on overseas development assistance.

As politicians, we are the people who, if in power, have to persuade our colleagues—especially the Chancellor of the day—to increase ODA spending. Every time the Chancellor has increased spending on that, it has been welcomed by the shadow Chancellor. However, we have also to demonstrate to the wider public that this is a good use of their money and that our aid is effective.

I encourage the Minister to look more closely at aid effectiveness. The hon. Member for Richmond Park mentioned the effectiveness of micro-credit, and I commend that to the Minister. It has been an incredible success with regard to finance in the developing world, flying in the face of the myth that if one lends money to poor people in developing countries one never gets it back. The default rate for micro-finance is minimal compared to default rates for credit given in rich nations such as ours. That has been a successful initiative that needs more encouragement.

I would like the Minister to comment on aid effectiveness and good governance. In terms of financing development, at the moment we have a tendency to make matters worse for some developing countries that do not achieve the sort of three-star rating that the hon. Member for Richmond Park referred to. We hold back development assistance—at one level, perhaps, understandably—from countries that are in conflict or corrupt, but there must be other ways to provide aid more effectively to countries that do not qualify for budgetary support by other means. We have rather a crude mechanism at the moment, in which financing for development seems to reward good performance, although we have not found a way of reaching poor performers more effectively. We need to find a more creative solution to that.

On development assistance, politicians of all parties who are interested in the issue of how to improve finance for development have to pass what I call the cab driver test: if we went out of the Chamber this afternoon and hired a cab, and asked the driver, "Do you think that we should spend more of taxpayers' money on overseas aid?", what reaction would we get? That is the test that politicians have to undergo at every general election when making choices about how to disburse money.

The problem is that there is quite a lot of public scepticism about whether the money really gets through. A stock phrase—it is very unfair to the Swiss—comes to mind: "Doesn't it all end up in Swiss bank accounts, Mrs. Spelman?" That is what people often say to me. "Can I give with any confidence? Can I be sure that the money will get through? How can 1 be confident that my taxes will trickle down to those that really need the money?"

The focus on aid effectiveness is inextricably linked to financing development. That is not as simple as upping the percentage of aid, or selecting countries that are performing quite well; it is a complex matrix. However, the test, and our purpose in trying to raise the finance needed in the developing world, is to ensure that money is demonstrably getting through to those who need it. I urge the Minister to focus on the suggestions that both Front-Bench spokesmen have made today on how to make the work of the Department even more effective.

4.36 pm

With permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to respond to this small but not imperfectly formed debate, which has once again proved Westminster Hall's unique capacity for allowing Members to come together and debate issues in a way that allows all who contribute to add something to our understanding of the problem.

I thank the hon. Members for Richmond Park (Dr. Tonge) and for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) for their thoughtful and stimulating contributions. The debate is part of a continuing dialogue, not only between Members of Parliament, but with the people whom we represent and across the globe, as it must be if we are to make progress and make a difference. In the end, people will judge us on whether what we have done makes a difference.

Cynicism is not a trait that I associate with the hon. Member for Richmond Park, so I took heed when she said that she was slightly cynical about the international finance facility. I hasten to point out that in describing it this afternoon I was not re-announcing it. It is out there; I was simply describing what I genuinely believe to be a creative response to the identified problem of the shortage of the money that we need if we are to make progress in achieving the millennium development goals.

Of course, the IFF will work only if a sufficient number of people sign up to it, but the beauty of the idea is that it uses what people have already committed themselves to giving. People will have to provide the committed amount in the years ahead, but the scheme uses that commitment to borrow money for expenditure up front. The facility is a kind of mortgage, because it builds on the future repayment of bonds to produce a sum that can be spent earlier. That will allow faster progress to be made towards the millennium development goals. It is the best idea around that could enable us to do that.

When we read the Zedillo report and see that there is a $50 billion shortfall, it would be easiest to throw up our hands in horror and say, "Well, isn't it all terribly difficult, and isn't it sad that we can't make any progress?" Those involved in the political process are saying about the IFF, "Well, here's an idea; how about it?" We, and others who have expressed support for the process, are trying to persuade people that the IFF is a good idea that can be made to work and will address the problem that all of us are concerned about. It is no more and no less than that. If it were to succeed and if we were to persuade people of the benefits of the facility, it would be a practical contribution to solving the problem. I want to make that clear.

We have debated trade reform at some length both here and in the main Chamber. We are at one about CAP reform, which the hon. Member for Meriden spoke about with some passion. As a country, we have been trying for a long time to reform the CAP. I think back to the famous renegotiations carried out by Prime Minister Harold Wilson in 1974–75, before the referendum. That process proved extremely difficult, but I regard what was achieved three weeks ago as a significant step forward. It has begun to break the link between payment and production, while recognising the fact that member states have different interests. It is right that the Government should come under pressure from Opposition parties to do something about it, but we know that a solution can be reached only if there is agreement among member states about the need to make progress.

What troubles me about the outcome of the reform talks is that, although the intention is to break the link, a significant number of domestic subsidies have a long transition period before they are phased out. We have seen that happen before. There is an added problem in that, because there is no peace clause for the domestic subsidies after 31 December, the long transition period could result in an all-out trade war unless the subsidies are phased out more rapidly or a peace clause between the trade partners is concluded.

I appreciate the hon. Lady's point. No one wants an all-out trade war. The onus is on everyone at the meeting at Cancun, in particular, to build on what has already been achieved by the agreement that has been reached and to recognise that it is only a step along the way. We must all acknowledge that more must be done, especially about subsidies.

The hon. Lady talked about support for advocacy. We both attended the all-party group meeting, and what was so striking about the contribution from the three Trade, Industry and Commerce Ministers was that they were absolutely clear about what they wanted for their own country. They did not say that they had not been able to think matters through; they knew exactly what they wanted.

We hear those voices far too rarely in such debates because, too often, the debate about what is good for developing countries is conducted between people from developed countries. I wish that we could hear the voices that we heard at that meeting more often. That would lead to a more informed debate in the media and throughout the country. I was struck by the fact that those Ministers knew what they wanted.

Ours is not a counter-proposal to the advocacy fund. We are already undertaking such work. From memory, we are in the process of spending about £38 million from the £45 million. We want to build capacity within the countries concerned. I say to the hon. Lady that the right place for that capacity to be built is in Finance and Trade Ministries because that is where policy is formulated, as it is in this country. In those circumstances, if we build such capacity for the long term using budget support and other technical assistance that we provide to Governments, we will enhance the capacity of representatives at such meetings to be clear about what they want.

The hon. Lady referred to pressures to fragment the developing country bloc. It is important that developing countries stick together in negotiations and use the power that they have, recognising that in the end there will have to be an agreement in Cancun to stick up for what they think is important. They will say to us, as they said very clearly at the meeting, that if any progress is to be made we will have to deliver on agriculture, on TRIPS and access to medicine and on special and differential treatment, which we have not touched on this afternoon but which is extremely important.

Before the Minister leaves the subject, will he tell us why we did not support the French proposals on subsidies?

We did support the French proposals, but they did not get anywhere at the summit. We will have to return to that issue when we get to Cancun.

On foreign investment, we are, I think, at one. The hon. Lady made an important point in reminding us of our own history as a country. How did we develop economically? To draw a parallel, during the development of the mills in Leeds, people came to the city because of what had happened in the countryside. The mills were established and people invested in them. At the time, the working conditions were very bad and there was a lot of poverty. The response to the disadvantages and to the problems created by industrialisation was not to say to the mill owners, "Please take your mill and get out of town." People decided to get organised and to do something to improve the working conditions, because they recognised that they needed a way of earning a living. The issue is how to enable countries to earn their living and to pay their way, and how to give people the chance of a job and the chance to bring up a family.

The point that the hon. Lady made about the role that foreign investment plays in the process is extremely important. Again, if we reflect on our own experience, in the north-east, as traditional industries declined, the first thing that we did was to cast around for other people, including foreign people, to come to invest in the area. The same is true for developing countries. When I went to Indonesia, I asked how the rates paid by foreign-owned companies there compared with those paid by domestic industries. I was struck by the answer: it turned out that the foreign-owned companies paid—from memory—12 to 20 per cent. more.

Of course, the rates are low compared with what is paid in the United States or the United Kingdom, but in comparison to what else is on offer for people and their families, they are actually better. We need to acknowledge that, while recognising that the circumstances of foreign investment, its confidence and its willingness to stay, will depend a lot on the framework of governance, on the rules and regulations, on the recourse to the courts and on all the things that we now understand much more about. Those all contribute to the prospects for economic development. Such development is what the countries want; they only want for themselves what we want for ourselves and what we have been able to experience because of our history.

The hon. Member for Meriden was absolutely right—and I agree completely with her—about the increasing interest in companies' corporate practices and ethical reputation. Undoubtedly, one of the really powerful forces in society, which will encourage companies to do things better and to do them right, is the risk of damage to their reputation if they do things badly or do them wrong. Developments such as the ethical training initiative, the Dow Jones index to which the hon. Lady referred and the extractive industries transparency initiative that we launched, which gets companies and countries in those industries to be honest and open about who pays what to whom, are all steps to make the process more transparent.

We can use the pressure to which the hon. Lady referred to improve performance, because companies are concerned about their reputation. I understood that most forcefully when I was previously at the Department and I attended a meeting of an association that brought together all the British toy manufacturers. Very few of them manufacture in the UK; most do so abroad. The person making the presentation started with a slide that showed dead bodies in a toy factory in China which caught fire. He said to the assembled ranks of the industry that the reason why they were sitting there, talking about signing up to a code of practice for sourcing toys that they import into the UK, was that they did not want that—he pointed to the slide—ever to happen again. He made the point extremely forcefully, and that is one example of how one industry is trying to improve what it does.

I would be happy to write to the hon. Member for Richmond Park on micro-credit because some developments have taken place. She referred to the Grameen bank initiative that started the process. We support micro-credit schemes in a variety of ways, and I would be happy to let her have further information on that.

The hon. Lady raised the issue of the Africa and Asia development performance funds. We put some money aside at the start of the year to be called upon, during the year, by country programmes where we think that it can be used to good effect. We could allocate all the money irrevocably at the start of the year, but we need to bear in mind that progress is made at different speeds, some things may not work and there may be delay. We have simply used that device to ensure that we use the money that we have most effectively during the course of the year. That is how it works, and it is not a matter of anything else.

I agree with the point that the hon. Member for Meriden made about the importance of aid effectiveness, including the importance of delivering if we have pledged money. In general, the UK has a pretty good record. I know that the hon. Lady was not criticising us, but she is right to draw attention to the gap that can exist between pledges and the actual commitment of money.

On debt relief, only eight countries have reached completion point, but 26 countries have reached decision point, and the debt relief kicks in at the decision point. The international community increasingly accepts the need to review and top up at completion point because of the problems of continued debt unsustainability and the question of the impact of falls in commodity prices. We have pressed for that and we continue to do so.

The hon. Lady is right about the need for overseas development assistance. The last point that I want to make links that issue and the cab driver challenge that she gave us. She is right about the need to persuade the public, our parties and the Chancellor. The truth is that some Governments are more successful than others in having that debate. Some Chancellors listen more readily than others, as the current holder of that office has demonstrated. We can see what has happened to our overseas aid budget, in absolute terms and as a share of GNP, in the six years since the current Government were elected.

The debate demonstrates the power of the political process to make a difference, and the key phrase that arises from it is political will. This is a matter of the extent to which there is the political will to have an argument with the cab driver, to persuade the Chancellor, to argue with our constituents or to persuade the parties that we represent that the matter is a priority.

There are many different ways that we can have that conversation and apply our political will to make a difference, but increasingly the world understands how much we depend on, and are affected by, events that occur in other countries compared with the situation 20, 50 or 100 years ago. That is partly because we see more of those events on our television screens. That is a great motivator for political action because people see them, are appalled and ask why we are not doing something about them. That was the case with the famine in Ethiopia.

We are now getting coverage of what has been happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo—a terrible conflict in which millions of people have lost their lives. That was largely hidden from the world's view. How did we make the modest but not unimportant step of getting an international force into Bunia? It happened because people saw the conflict. Increasingly, we experience the consequences of conflict and the failure of states when people come to this country. Certainly when, as constituency MPs, we meet asylum seekers who come to us for help, we are brought face to face with the consequences of failing to do something about the problem.

Finally, there is the moral argument, which one can never escape. It simply is not right that 130 million kids do not go to school every day or that kids die because their countries, families and medical and health systems do not have the means to deal with completely preventable diseases. The debate really does matter, because it is about the future of the world.

We may be small in number this afternoon, but we have had a very good debate, and I am grateful to my two hon. Friends, and I call them that advisedly, for their contribution.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at five minutes to Five o'clock.