What recent assessment he has made of the balance between the number of police officers and police administrative support staff. [134158].

At the end of March 2003 there were 63,105 police staff, which is 32 per cent. of total police service personnel. This is a record number of police staff, working alongside a record number of police officers.

Is not the Minister concerned that the 7,700 extra police employed by the Government are so much fewer than the 9,600 extra administrative support staff? Would not it he better severely to reduce the paper filling and audit endured by our police officers so that instead of nearly 10,000 extra administrative staff we had the 40,000 extra police that the Conservatives would provide?

The hon. Gentleman must learn to get his sums right. There are an extra 9,000 police officers, not the 7,000 to which he referred. The extra police staff are certainly not pushing paper. They are investigating officers, detention officers and escort officers. There is also a record number of nearly 2,000 community support officers, who are helping us to provide high-visibility, front-line policing on our streets, which is what the public want.

What effect does the Minister think that the recent revelations of racism in a number of provincial forces will have on recruitment, especially among ethnic minorities?

My hon. Friend raises an important and extremely difficult issue. We are doubly determined to tackle racism, and I hope that record numbers of people from black and minority ethnic communities will continue to join our police service—I understand that Greater Manchester police force had a record number of new recruits in its most recent intake. That is why it is vital that we root out racism wherever we find it and ensure that people with racist beliefs have no place whatever in our police service.

Does the Minister accept that it is a disgrace that 41 per cent. of a policeman's time is tied up on paperwork and that we want much more done to get our police out on the streets? With that in mind, will she support me in calling for all police on the beat to be issued with palmtops and mobile technology so they can be seen doing their work, rather than being back in the station? Does she also accept that this is the age of techno cop, not paper-clip cop?

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his first Question Time as home affairs spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats. I am sorry to have to tell him, however, that we have been there, done that. We are well on the road to introducing technology. I visited Wrexham police a few weeks ago. They have hand-held computers and personal computers in the cab so that they do not have to waste their time going back to the office to fill in forms. Video identification services are being rolled out across forces and we also have NAFIS, the national automated fingerprint identification system. Much more technology is now involved. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will enjoy visiting forces in which technology is beginning to make a difference.

Arising from what the Minister said to my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas), is not it a fact that had it not been for the undercover work of Mark Daly, people with outrageous racist views would have been kept in the police force? Should not the BBC and, in particular, the reporter be congratulated on the public and civic duty they undertook? Will the Minister explain why it was felt necessary for very senior Home Office officials to write to the chairman of the BBC before the film—

Order. The hon. Gentleman goes beyond the terms of the question.

My hon. Friend mentions the television programme, which I watched. I was shocked, sickened and outraged by what I saw. However, the new assessment procedure introduced in May this year tests recruits' attitudes to race and diversity in seven different ways. Since that was introduced, 79 potential recruits have not got a job because they failed the diversity part of the test. We will ensure that that new form of assessment for recruits is rolled out across the country, as fast as possible, to ensure that we weed out people with abhorrent and deep racist views.

We welcome the increased number of police officers, even though the figures show that they are being paid for by council tax increases rather than by the Government. Last week, the Minister said in Westminster Hall that there would be an increase in spending on the police of 4 per cent. next year to include formula spending, the specific grant and Home Office direct expenditure, yet the Association of Police Authorities says that it needs an increase of 6 per cent. just to stand still. Is it right? If so, by how much will council tax go up, or will we see fewer police next year?

The hon. Gentleman is well aware, from our debates both in this Chamber and in Westminster Hall, that police funding is a top priority for the Government. Over the past three years there has been significant extra investment, amounting to an increase of some 25 per cent. in support for the police. We are delighted that that has led to record numbers of police and community support officers, and more visibility in our policing.

Hard-working police officers in the Medway towns met me and my colleagues to express their alarm, and that of their communities, about phone boxes being blown up by fireworks. They welcome the new powers in the Anti-Social Behaviour Bill, but will my hon. Friend look at the fact that the police can search people for drugs, cigarettes and tobacco, but not for fireworks—

Order. That is far too wide of the original question.

What progress has been made in promulgating the lessons learned from exercise OSIRIS II to other (a) regions and (b) local authorities. [134159]

Our early view is that the elements that we planned to test in this exercise worked well, but of course there are lessons to be learned from it for all the people and agencies involved. We aim to make the key findings public before Christmas.

I am grateful for that answer, as far as it went. It took the Government 104 weeks after 11 September to try such an exercise, and clearly it took place only in London. When will similar exercises be planned and implemented in places such as Birmingham, Manchester and Nottingham?

The hon. Gentleman does not seem to be very well informed about what was going on prior to that exercise. There have been five major exercises since 2000—before the events of 11 September—as well as a raft of table-top and middle-level exercises. The exercise programme for both the chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear resilience programme and the counter-terrorist strategy includes a wide range of exercises; there will be another seven over the next six months on the CBRN element alone. I am confident that the agencies, the private sector and other Departments are being brought together both frequently and effectively to test the various elements of our extensive programmes.

Do any of those future exercises include a simulated biological threat attack; and if not, why not?

There are certainly exercises designed to test the planning and framework arrangements for biological attacks. One of the seven exercises that I have just referred to tests the plan for a specific biological attack involving smallpox, as well as a range of other chemical agents.

The Minister will be aware that I represent a constituency on the fringes of London. One of my great concerns is that, when I talk to local authority chief executives, they seem to have little real, detailed understanding of how they would have to respond in the event of a major incident. What steps have the Government taken to ensure that those who might be on the fringes of a major incident, and might therefore suffer overspill effects such as the movement of people, are brought into the loop and well versed in what they might have to do in such circumstances?

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point because, as he rightly implies, it is not sufficient simply to have well co-ordinated arrangements at the centre for Departments and major national Government agencies; it is extremely important to make sure that there is linkage and coordination at regional and local levels. He is right: on the scene, it will largely be local authorities and their counterparts who will respond first.

If he will allow police officers to raise money from licensed premises to pay for additional police officers and community support officers. [134160]

We are concerned about the costs of policing late-night entertainment venues, and we believe that partnership working with the industry is the key to tackling crime and disorder. There are some excellent examples, such as "City Centre Safe" in Manchester. The Home Office is working closely with the Prime Minister's strategy unit to develop an alcohol harm reduction strategy for England. The strategy will tackle a wide range of issues, including managing the costs of crime and disorder.

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's reply. The Government have achieved a remarkable increase in the number of police officers, but is not the problem the fact that too much of a police officer's career is likely to be spent policing town and city centres on Friday and Saturday nights, not out in the communities where people also wish to see them? Do we not need a statutory scheme to enable police authorities and local authorities to raise extra money from the licensed premises that make huge profits from hinge and heavy drinking to fund extra police officers and community support officers in every community that needs them?

My right hon. Friend is right about the cost to local communities of the disorder caused by crime—47 per cent. of violent incidents are committed under the influence of alcohol. As I have said, we are embarking on a strategy with the Prime Minister's strategy unit to tackle the issue among others, and hope to report later this year. Community support officers can be given designated powers to assist in this area. I understand that Hampshire police, who cover my right hon. Friend's constituency, have so far not bid for community support officers, but there will be another opportunity to do so in spring 2004.

If police authorities are allowed to raise additional revenue, can it be used to pay special constables? They perform an invaluable role, yet their numbers have been cut dramatically under this Government.

It will be open to the force to determine the use of any funds so raised. However, there are already a number of schemes that local authorities and the police, working with club owners and publicans, can use to try to address those issues. In fact, the Licensing Act 2003 includes new powers to shut down rowdy premises within 24 hours and review licences instead of waiting for the point when they are up for renewal, which will help to tackle some of the issues.

May I welcome on behalf of my constituents the total of nearly 300 additional police for south Wales since 1997 and the community support officers who have recently been added? However. echoing fellow Members' queries, when the strategy review is complete, can it be rolled out as soon as possible, particularly to places such as Ogmore, where police are being pulled out of remote communities for duties in town centres as well as in the fantastic Millennium stadium?

I support my hon. Friend's view that this is an important issue that needs to be addressed. It is an issue not only for the police but for local authorities, health services and others. Earlier this year, guidance was published for crime and disorder reduction partnerships on ways in which they could tackle the issue as part of their remit.

Does the Minister accept that the experiment in New Earswick, where the Joseph Rowntree fund paid for a police officer for a two-year trial period, did not work? The Opposition want to replace two-year time-limited grants for community support and rural support policing with long-term funding for our police.

I am afraid that I do not know the details of the experiment that the hon. Lady mentioned, but there are issues relating to an end-to-end attitude to the process that involve all sectors of local authorities. If individuals are pulled out to take part in other assignments, that does not necessarily help the problem that they were urged to tackle from the outset. We want collaboration between the police, local authorities and people in the industry to try to find solutions to this challenging problem.

What new proposals he has to reduce the use of illegal drugs. [134161]

As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government's updated drug strategy was launched in December 2002. Recent achievements in reducing drug use and supporting communities include the introduction of the young people's substance misuse plan in April 2003. Since then, we have launched the Frank anti-drugs awareness campaign, and have announced funding for a two-year anti-stigma campaign for relatives of drug misusers. On Thursday, the Prime Minister announced a pilot arrest referral scheme for young people in 10 sites across the UK.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the harshest prohibitionist policies against drugs in Europe for 30 years have, perversely, led to our having the worst drug problems in the entire continent—less than 1,000 drug addicts in the UK in 1970 and more than 250,000 now, and no recreational use of cannabis in this country until after it was prohibited? Is not the Government's stand on the reclassification of cannabis a courageous, practical and intelligent one? Although it is a first baby step, is it not likely to lead to a new direction of policy that will reduce all drug harm?

The overall aim of our drug strategy is to reduce the harm caused by drugs and, importantly, to reduce the crime caused by those who have drug problems. We do not believe that legalisation is the right step forward. I reaffirm to the House that the reclassification of cannabis in no way legalises cannabis. We are trying to have a mature debate about a highly complex issue. One of the reasons that drugs strategies have failed in the past is that there have been too many gaps through which the people who suffer from addiction fall. Through the criminal justice system and drug action teams, and by working with schools and others, we are trying to make sure that we get the best output from the money that we put in, and above all that we reduce the harm to individuals, their families and the wider community.

If the Government win the vote on Wednesday, will cannabis be an illegal drug?

Yes.

Sweden does it, Australia does it, and now, after years of prevaricating, Bassetlaw is doing it, with GPs taking the lead in treating drug addicts effectively. Would my hon. Friend prefer to wait the two or three years it will take to train more specialist GPs before copying our success, or would she rather give us more money now to evaluate the success and fast-track effective treatment?

We are keen to see best practice across the country. As Bassetlaw is a near neighbour of mine, I shall study closely what happens there. One thing is sure: we need to look at a range of people working in the field, from the clinical specialists to others who can make sure that we support people as a way of getting them off drugs and out of drugs. I always have an open ear to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann).

Does the Minister accept that by reclassifying cannabis on Wednesday, the Government will not be doing what the hon. Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn) would like—fracturing the relationship between hard and soft drug dealing—nor will they be taking the kind of tough measures against all drugs, which the Opposition argue for? Is this not one more example of the fact that the third way is no way at all? Instead of sending out mixed and confusing messages on Wednesday, why does the hon. Lady not provide more drug rehabilitation places?

I do not accept that. We are providing more places for various forms of treatment. It is not just a matter of residential treatment; it is a matter of what happens to people when they come out of that treatment and how we sustain treatment in the community. That includes dealing with issues such as employment, housing and education. We are not seeking to legalise cannabis by reclassifying it; we are trying to have an important debate based on scientific evidence that looks at the relative harm caused by different types of controlled drugs. The hon. Gentleman and others are guilty of sending out mixed messages, which do not help children, young people and others who expect an honest, frank and realistic attitude to such an important issue.

If he will make a statement on the funding of Greater Manchester police. [134162]

The budget for the Greater Manchester police this year is £450 million, an increase of 8.6 per cent. on last year. Government grant for Greater Manchester is £380.8 million this year, an increase of 4.9 per cent. over 2002–03. In addition, specific grants of £28.9 million give an overall increase of 6.7 per cent. The police authority will also receive over £9 million in capital funding. We shall announce details of the provisional funding settlement for 2004–05 in mid-November.

While I recognise the enormous increase in funding, does my hon. Friend accept that it is a colossal waste of resources to pursue the makers of "The Secret Policeman", the documentary about Greater Manchester police and other police forces? Is it not a phenomenal betrayal of the people of this country and of Manchester, and of many in the police service, that they are stigmatised as racist because of the failure of those at the very top to deal with racism among our police? I welcome the Minister's strong words in the House today, but what steps will the Home Office take to make chief constables deal with racism effectively?

Like me, every Member who saw that programme last week will have been sickened and outraged, but the documentary also revealed that many, many serving officers certainly do not share such racist beliefs. It is crucial that we support the officers in the service who have done a great deal to tackle racism in recent years while redoubling our efforts—at ministerial level, chief constable level and throughout the service—to weed out racist recruits. I am delighted that all the chief constables have written a public letter to that effect and signed up to a seven-point plan. We will ensure that the new police assessment and recruitment process for probationers is rolled out across the country because, wherever we can, we must send out a clear message, both in principle and in practice, that racism has no place in the British police service.

Did Greater Manchester police ask the permanent secretary at the Home Office to write to the BBC, and, if not, why did he do so?

The right hon. Gentleman knows that there are questions on that further down the Order Paper. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will answer in detail the questions that have been raised in relation to the permanent secretary's letter.

The Minister cannot escape answering the question. If the permanent secretary was not seeking to stop the film, what was he doing writing to the BBC a month before it was shown?

Mr. Speaker—

Order. [Interruption.] Order. The question is about funding. The Minister will answer.

It is my understanding that the permanent secretary was not requested to write, but chose to do so because of the difficulties that he had experienced in obtaining access to the material involved. That was the basis on which he wrote the letter.

What guidance he gives to chief constables on policing professional football matches. [134163]

Policing football matches is an operational matter for chief officers. The Home Office works closely with the police, football authorities and other agencies to help minimise the safety and security risks associated with football matches.

Can the Minister confirm that there are no no-go areas and that the laws of the land that apply to the people who watch football also apply to participants on the pitch, on the touchline and in the players' tunnel? What advice has been given to chief constables to ensure that the law of the land is upheld on the pitch by professional footballers?

The hon. Gentleman is right: players and others are subject to exactly the same laws and police powers as any other citizen. The police can intervene if the situation makes it necessary. We have worked with local police officers to ensure that they use their powers appropriately. Obviously, during a match, the conduct of the match is the responsibility of the referee and match officials, so we also work with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to offer support in respect of that aspect of policing. The Minister for Sport and Tourism wrote to the chairmen of 92 league clubs before the start of the season to remind them of their responsibility for ensuring that their players' behaviour is of an acceptable standard. Since then, he has discussed player misbehaviour and the response of the football authorities on several occasions with the management teams of the premier league and Football League. We in the Home Office expect every police officer to maintain the same standards of conduct among players as they would among the general public.

Does the Minister appreciate that the cost of policing football matches is a huge burden on clubs, especially a club such as Leicester, which is going through a temporary blip at the bottom of the premiership? Does she appreciate that in some cases the cost is an arbitrary figure that is placed on specific clubs and games? Will she convene a meeting with the Minister for Sport and Tourism to discuss the matter seriously with the relevant clubs? [Interruption.]

It is true that Leicester unfortunately did not do as well as Colchester United at the weekend.

Further to the comments of the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), will the Minister confirm that policing football matches last season cost approximately £50 million, of which only a fifth was recouped from the football clubs? In contradistinction to the hon. Gentleman's remarks and given vast transfer fees and specific clubs' huge amount of wealth, is not there a case for the Football Association, for example, entering into negotiations with the police to ensure that a much greater proportion of the cost is paid back to the police?

The hon. Gentleman implies that all football clubs have the same resources as those in the premier league. Some clubs have substantial resources, but the costs can be a burden for a smaller club that finds it more difficult to pay for such matters. The working group to which I referred in answer to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) is discussing such issues. It will consider ways of sharing the costs and the burden. Although the additional policing that accompanies a football match benefits the local community, there are also disbenefits. That is precisely why we have set up the working group. It will consider in its report the clubs that can best bear the costs.

What plans he has to visit Bridgend in 2003 to discuss with relevant parties his agenda for tackling crime in Bridgend. [134164]

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary visited Bridgend in January last year, when he had an extremely helpful meeting with the borough commander. The Government are committed to reducing crime throughout England and Wales, and are working with local and national partners to do that.

I thank the Home Secretary for his visit on that occasion, because it was followed by a resounding by-election victory in my neighbouring constituency. Will he and the Home Office team consider the excellent work of the youth offending team in Bridgend and re-examine its funding? The local authority appears to have to accept a disproportionately high amount of the costs, and other partners should make a greater contribution. In that respect, the Home Office could play its part by ensuring that South Wales police are adequately funded in the coming year.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is some excellent work going on in Bridgend and right across south Wales in tackling drugs problems and antisocial behaviour, and working with schools and young people. I am delighted that South Wales police has 40 community support officers and a further 23 due to start very soon. I am also delighted to give him my reassurance that I will discuss the issue that he has raised about the youth offending team with the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Paul Goggins), to see whether there are any steps that can be taken.

What plans he has to make the products of telephone taps admissible evidence in criminal trials. [134165]

There are no plans to do so at present, although the House will be aware from previous debates that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has this matter under review.

I am grateful for that answer. It is usually said that phone tap material cannot be admitted in court because of operational secrecy, but it is admitted in almost every other jurisdiction without apparent damage being done. Indeed, some British-based international criminals have been convicted here because the foreign end of their operation was tapped and the foreign taps were put into evidence here. In a recent case in Cleveland—my own police authority—there simply was no other evidence. Although the phone taps were somewhere between strong and conclusive, the case collapsed. We are trying to bear down on crime, so should not proper use be made of this valuable material?

My hon. and learned Friend, as ever, makes an interesting point, and it is one of those that the review to which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has referred will be taking into account. As she mentioned, the United States and most European Union countries already admit such evidence in the way that she suggests, but the balanced judgment that the review must make is whether telephone taps, if we allowed them to be used as evidence, would produce a better outcome than the current system. Of course, the current system uncovers essential evidence that leads to prosecutions and, even more importantly, the prevention of serious crime. All those issues will be weighed in the balance in the review, which will report in due course.

While I welcome the balance that the Minister is bringing to the issue, will he weigh in that balance the case of Major Milos Stankovic, whose career in the British armed services was seriously harmed by, I understand, American intelligence intercepts that were wilfully misunderstood? That led to his career being ruined when all he was doing was carrying out his proper duties as directed by the general for whom he was working for the United Nations in Serbia. That is a good example of the dangers of relying on such intercepts. Will the Minister bear that in mind during the review?

It is kind of the hon. Gentleman to show concern for somebody whose career allegedly was seriously damaged. The experience that he outlines to the House is of course the kind that will be taken into account by the review.

The Minister seems to have already answered his own question about whether the review will provide a change. In the light of the publication of Rio Ferdinand's telephone bills on the front page of many newspapers last weekend, may I urge my hon. Friend to ensure that there is strong security around the process of phone tapping? Will he also consider the issue of how text messages as well as telephone conversations are made admissible in court?

Again, all this will be taken into account by the review. It is important that we consider the role of text messages, which are a form of telephone communication. They will also be taken into account by the review, although bringing Rio Ferdinand into these considerations is probably slightly wide of the mark. However, you have not ruled so, Mr. Speaker, and I shall conclude there.

What his policy is on limiting police authority council tax increases. [134167]

The use of reserve capping powers in England is a matter for the Deputy Prime Minister. We are clear about the fact that the trend in council tax rises is not sustainable, which is why the Government have announced that, if necessary, we may use our capping powers in 2004–05.

That was an exercise in wishful thinking if I ever heard one. The police authorities themselves estimate that next year the average council tax increase will be 15 per cent. just so that they can stand still—and that comes on top of the 24.5 per cent. actual average increase last year.

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman wants the rates to be capped.

Along with other Lancashire Members, I met representatives of Lancashire police force on Friday. While welcoming all that the Government have done in so many respects over the past few years, they gave us a blueprint of what they believe Lancashire policing needs in the years ahead. It would mean a massive increase in the police budget.

My hon. Friend is right. As he will recall from his experience as a local authority leader, it behoves an administration to put the best possible case for extra resources, and I am sure that that is what his local police force has done. He is also right to point to the consequences of gearing, whereby an extra 1 per cent. on the council precept for police spending requires a 4 per cent. increase in the amount charged to the local citizen. That system was introduced by the Conservative party, and the citizens of my hon. Friend's constituency are still suffering as a result.

Is not one of the factors pushing up the police element of the council tax, especially in the south of England, the difficulty of recruiting and retaining officers? Is that not made even more difficult when officers are poached by forces in lower-cost areas or by the Met? I know that the Minister took an interest in this matter in her former incarnation. What thought has she given to a system of transfer fee payments, whereby the Thames Valley force and others in the south of England could at least recoup some of the cost of training those officers?

The hon. Gentleman will know that, as a constituency Member, I am concerned about that. As a result of my concern, and concern expressed by chief constables in the south-east, additional allowances of £2,000 were introduced for Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Surrey and Thames Valley for officers recruited after the 1994 change in the payment system, and allowances of £1,000 for those in Bedfordshire, Hampshire and Sussex. That is one way of helping authorities to recruit and retain officers. We have also established the 30-plus scheme to encourage officers to stay on so that forces can retain experienced members.

What steps he is taking to increase the opportunities for prisoners to find employment after release. [134168]

The Prison Service is investing £14.5 million a year in its custody to work initiative. A growing partnership with Jobcentre Plus has led to a number of initiatives, including the extension of employment and benefits surgeries across the prison estate.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that often it is the probation service that is at the front end in terms of rehabilitating former offenders and getting them back into proper employment, and that the problem that they often face is that the key skills, the literacy and numeracy skills, that they need to undertake a profitable existence in society are lacking? Has the Home Office any plans to talk to learning and skills councils to try to generate local partnerships with organisations such as the probation service in Scarborough and Whitby, which is doing very well and could do even better with a stronger partnership in that respect?

I can confirm that the probation service is seeking to develop partnerships of that kind, as is the Prison Service. Last year, 40,000 literacy and numeracy qualifications were gained in prison. Indeed, last year, one in 10 of every basic skills qualification gained anywhere in the country was gained in a prison. Better qualified people coming out of prison stand a better chance of getting a job and staying out of trouble.

As the Minister well knows, I have the second largest female prison in my constituency and, despite the best efforts of local people, too little is done to help those female prisoners on their release into the community, often in the Manchester area. Does he agree that we need to do much more to help female prisoners, whose lives are often a complete mess before they go to prison? What initiatives has he considered undertaking as the new Prisons Minister?

Women leaving Styal prison and indeed prisoners leaving any prison need a great deal of support, sometimes appropriate drug treatment or mentoring support, for example, but in particular they need help with education and training in order to get their lives back in order and to enhance their opportunities for gaining employment and a wage that will take them increasingly away from crime.

Education is key to rehabilitating prisoners on their release. The last annual report of Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons stated that the amount spent per capita on young people in the secure estate was £1,800. That compares with an equivalent figure for secondary schools of £3,200. Even allowing for a different way of calculating those figures, the discrepancy is immense: per capita, only about 60 per cent. of what is spent in secondary schools is spent in the secure estate. Will my hon. Friend look into that discrepancy and address the problem?

It is unfair to make that direct comparison. I think that my hon. Friend admitted as much, but it is important that we continue to increase the amount of education and training that is available for juveniles in custody, and we continue to do that.

The Minister said that good education and training programmes could be delivered in prison. Does he agree that it becomes impossible to deliver such programmes in an overcrowded environment? As the prison population at 74,000 is 8,000 over the certified normal accommodation, and as the Government's own projections are that, by 2006, on a conservative estimate, it will rise to 88,000, with only 1,720 places currently projected in the pipeline, how on earth are we going to prevent a serious crisis that will make training and education impossible?

Answer.

I will answer the question, which is that at the moment we are expanding the prison estate by adding 2,800 places in existing prisons, building two new prisons and making use of home detention curfew. About 3,600 people are currently on home detention curfew who otherwise would be in prison, so we are constantly looking at the size of the prison population and we are taking all the necessary measures to deal with those pressures.

Does my hon. Friend agree that community sentencing can play a key role in helping to rehabilitate people because they can develop new skills while helping their community, and that it is a win-win situation for the community both because it gets something back from prisoners and because it can see those people putting something back into the community to make up for their original crime?

I agree absolutely. I have made it clear on many occasions that one of the tasks that we face is rebalancing correctional services, so that we make much greater use of community penalties. They can, with the right people, have a great impact. We should be using tagging as much as possible, for example, in association with other forms of intervention such as drug treatment, better education and so forth, to deal with all the people who have gone to prison for very short periods far more effectively in the community.

What estimate he has made of (a) the costs of introducing identity cards and (b) the annual revenue and capital costs of such a scheme for each of the next five years. [134169]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that it is precisely the analysis and verification of the matters that he asks about that I have been working on for the past 18 months. Indeed, I referred to that work in July of last year, when I made a statement to the House and launched a consultation. I know that he will forgive me if I avoid infringing the right of Cabinet colleagues to make final decisions by not giving him the details this afternoon.

Unfortunately, I cannot forgive him for that omission, because I really want to know how much this system will cost the taxpayer. We now know that identity fraud accounts for only 5 per cent. of the problems that have arisen in respect of benefits, yet the costs being talked about in the press are huge, for a system that will be neither effective nor efficient. Will the Home Secretary please drop this back-door tax on our identities, and if he is determined to press ahead with it, will he at least do what other European countries with such systems have done and ally it to a written constitution, so that the right balance of freedoms and responsibilities is struck for our citizens?

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his ingenuity—I would never have imagined that getting the European constitution or individual constitutions into this question was manageable. so well done. The truth is that whether or not we go ahead with an identification scheme, there will be substantial costs—similar to costs for ID cards—for biometrics, for proper verification of passports, and, through the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, for proper verification of driving licences. When we have discussed the matter in Cabinet, I shall be very happy to present the detail and to explain where we go from here, because one way or the other we shall be going forward.

In looking at—

My hon. Friend needs an identity card.

I still have an identity card, which I was issued with in 1942. In looking at the costs of developing an ID card system, is my right hon. Friend examining developing a new database from scratch? Does he accept that if we try to build on existing databases, such as the DVLA's, which were not designed for the purpose of proving identity and are known to be insecure, we will be spending a great deal of money on a system that will be flawed from day one?

My hon. Friend is right to draw this matter to the House's attention. There are two separate issues: the process by which people would obtain cards and the mechanisms in place to deal with it; and the database itself, which will be crucial if biometrics and cards with chips—including future passport cards and driving licence cards—are to work effectively. In such a scheme, dovetailing the citizens' information project, which the Treasury has been working on, with the revision and refinement of the national insurance system will also be crucial. I look forward to being able to return to the House in the weeks ahead with an answer as to which of the routes we will take.

Does the Home Secretary agree that although citizens rightly expect a great deal from the state and from taxpayers, taxpayers have an equal right to be able to ascertain the identities of those citizens who wish to claim benefits? I wish him well in his battle with the Treasury over this argument, and will he impart to the House his chances of actually winning it?

I am all in favour of ensuring that people who are entitled to benefits and services get them, and that those who are not do not. However, for the avoidance of doubt I should like to make it clear that I am not in a battle with the Treasury. We have sometimes had rigorous discussions in the past six and a half years; in this instance, we are having very amicable and helpful discussions.

What steps are being taken to tackle racism in the police. [134170]

If he will make a statement on the potential role of whistleblowing in tackling alleged racism in police forces. [134172]

My hon. Friend the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing, and Community Safety has already made it clear that we believe unequivocally that racism is unacceptable wherever it occurs, but particularly in the police service. That is why we introduced the new recruitment and assessment procedure, which took effect in 13 forces last May and is being rapidly extended across the country. That is why we are working with chief constables to ensure that failure on only one of the seven competences in respect of race and diversity, to which my hon. Friend the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing and Community Safety referred earlier, will mean that someone cannot have a job. Above all, we must use the new assessment centre to ensure that those doing the assessment are properly trained.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer and I appreciate the fact that the police are introducing a new system, based on the seven criteria, for entering the police force. However, since the incidents of the behaviour of police recruits—albeit a minority—have been revealed, what reaction has he had from the ethnic minorities throughout the country?

Quite understandably, one of sheer horror. I have been working with the National Black Police Association since before the film was shown, having attended its annual conference. First, I want to ensure that attitudes within the service are changed and that the diversity of our communities is respected. Secondly, when evidence is brought forward, I hope that through identification from within the force itself, rather than simply through the media, people will have the wherewithal and the confidence to bring that forward and senior officers will be prepared to take decisive action.

I am sure that the Home Secretary and every hon. Member will agree that the police do a difficult and dangerous job and need all the support that they can get, and I am sure that we all agree also that racism is a minority interest within police forces. Having said that, I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for drawing my attention to the statutory provision for whistleblowing, but is there not now a case for changing the culture? One of the ingredients of a successful force is the camaraderie, and one ingredient of that is individuals often keeping quiet when they should not when something wrong is picked up. In those circumstances, would it be possible to encourage police authorities and police forces to ensure that any whistleblowing incident can go ahead without any adverse come-back on the individual concerned? We really need to change the culture.

I would agree that the culture is critically important not simply in terms of people's behaviour towards each other, but in changing hearts and minds. People should not only refrain from using abhorrent language, but actually change their real attitude and actions. That applies to gender as much as to race. We all, to make the hon. Gentleman's point, have an obligation to do so, not just in terms of public services, but in respect of attitudes within political parties and within communities.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of allegations in The Sunday Telegraph yesterday about a detective who is responsible for investigating racially motivated crimes? According to the newspaper, she is married to an active member of the British National party and they have a bust of Adolf Hitler in their living room. Her husband has also made claims about the holocaust being exaggerated. Will my right hon. Friend take any measures that he can to ensure that that person is regarded as an inappropriate officer for doing that job in the police force?

That description should lead to immediate investigation of the facts and action being taken, which also applies to the eight officers—in the forces to which they have moved as well as the Greater Manchester force—after last Tuesday's broadcast. However, I do not want to rely on revelations by the media, but on proper investigation, proper analysis and action taken by senior managers within the police service to ensure that we do not have such incidents in the future.

Did the permanent secretary write to the BBC before the showing of the television programme that showed racism in the police force, and was that letter an attempt at censorship?

The permanent secretary wrote on 12 September to raise a number of issues, not having seen the film footage or the other material, which was not disclosed to the Home Office or Greater Manchester police, despite the fact that Greater Manchester police—on behalf of the chief constable and the Home Office—had requested it three times. He wrote to the director-general of the BBC to make a number of salient points, which in no way undermined the absolutely critical nature of the final broadcast, the material revealed, and the central issue of rooting out racism. One of the points that he raised was that it is critically important that members of the public dealing with the police service should know that the people they are dealing with are bona fide police officers and not members of the BBC staff.