I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 10, in page 16, line 20, at end insert—

'(2A) Permit regulations shall set out standard provisions which must be included in a permit scheme so as to ensure a reasonable level of consistency between permit schemes within the authority's area, and in particular to ensure that a single electronic noticing system may be used to implement permit schemes within the authority's area."

I hope that the Government will be as accommodating of new clause 2 as they were of new clause 1.

The provision deals with a stealth tax that is estimated to cost £1.2 billion a year or £55 per household per year. It is therefore quite high up the list of stealth taxes. To put it in context, while that figure is not as high as the pension stealth tax of £5 billion or £6 billion a year, it is greater than the total yield from the new charging regime that the Government propose to impose on higher education. Our debate is therefore significant, because if the Government accepted the new clause, they would be unable to use the permit scheme in part 3 as a new stealth tax.

One of the most frustrating aspects of the Committee stage was the lack of clarity about the Government's intentions on the use of lane rental, penalties for road works that take longer than is reasonable and the introduction of a permit scheme, perhaps along the lines of the scheme used in New York. If the Bill remains unamended, the Government will have the power to use the permit scheme as a means of imposing charges on utilities for the mere occupation of the highway, irrespective of whether the occupation is necessary. The Transport Act 2000 introduced a lane rental scheme, which was piloted in Camden and Middlesbrough. Those lane rental pilots expire at the end of March and the Government consultants, Halcrow, will report on the outcome. It is already clear from their interim report, however, that the pilots have proved to be expensive and bureaucratic, and have not resulted in a reduction in the number and incidence of roadworks undertaken by utilities. New clause 2 would prevent the Government from using the permit scheme as a revenue-raising measure on a par with lane rental.

In Committee, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) said:

"the Bill is not about introducing permit schemes as a revenue-raising exercise."

He went on to say:

"We must ensure that there is sufficient ability to charge for the permits to pay for the scheme. However, it is not meant to be, and I do not think that it will be, a revenue-raising scam".—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 29 January 2004; 163–c.;65.]

The hon. Gentleman went on to suggest that he was sympathetic to our aim of including in the Bill a restriction on the power of local authorities to use permit schemes as revenue-raising measures. That was the good news, but sadly the efforts of representatives from the National Joint Utilities Group, who spoke to officials from the Department behind the scenes about finding a form of words acceptable to the Government were met with stony silence—indeed, were strongly rebuffed.

I am interested in my hon. Friend's analysis, but how does it accord with the view in many quarters that we should allow local authorities the maximum discretion in deciding what to do in their own area? Is there not an argument for saying that in this case, as in many others, local authorities should be allowed wide discretion in charging for permits, as they would be accountable to voters later?

My right hon. Friend makes a case for giving local authorities a great stealth tax power but, having been the leader of a local authority, I believe that it should be the responsibility of national Government and Parliament to set the parameters of local authorities' tax and revenue-raising powers. It is a great privilege for local authorities to be able to raise taxes through, for example, the council tax. Imposing charges for car parking or occupation of the road is one thing. but a scheme for raising more than £1 billion a year from the utilities and, effectively, the public is something else—(Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) thinks that that is a good idea, and I look forward to hearing his arguments later. Speaking as someone who is concerned on behalf of ordinary householders whose utility bills are already of significant size and will go up further as a result of various measures introduced by the Government, I think householders throughout the country need another £55 added to their utility bills each year like they need a hole in the head. I am in favour of flushing out the Government's attitude to this stealth tax. If it means that I go down fighting on behalf of my constituents and other householders, but get some criticism from my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, so be it.

Is there not a flaw in the hon. Gentleman's argument? He has argued before that the utilities, particularly modern utilities such as broadband, are delivered in a way that disadvantages people in rural communities. Is it not the case that rural communities would not pay the alleged tax that he has invented, and the burden would fall entirely on urban dwellers?

I have not yet referred to any particular utilities or to broadband. The hon. Gentleman mentions the specific issue of broadband and telecoms infrastructure. As he knows, that is a sensitive issue, and some of the more remote communities may get access to broadband without the roads having to be dug up.

So will the hon. Gentleman concede that his earlier figure of £55 per household is wrong?

I will not concede that that is wrong. It is, inevitably, an average. The calculation is based on dividing the figure of £1.2 billion by the number of households, which gives a possible cost per household of £55 per annum to introduce the scheme that the Government have in mind. The hon. Gentleman identifies a difference between rural and urban areas, which means that in some areas the figure will be less than £55 and in others it will be much more than £55.

My hon. Friend has put his finger on a crucial point. is this not part of a pattern? The Government came in with a utility windfall tax, went on to a pension tax, then to a telecoms tax—a swingeing £22 billion on our leading utilities at the cutting edge of the technological revolution—and now the Government are going on to another set of stealth taxes on utilities trying to improve the service to our constituents. I am entirely with my hon. Friend, and in disagreement with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) who, on this rare occasion, has got it wrong.

Wait and see. The House has not heard me yet.

Indeed, I have not heard my right hon. Friend's speech. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) for his support.

Looking at the matter in context, it is clear that the biggest burden will be in the water industry, which is carrying out a major investment programme. The industry estimates that the cost of the scheme that the Government have in mind would be in the region of £300 million a year. If the Government accept the new clause, we will know that they do not have a stealth tax in mind. I recently attended a Greater London authority meeting, which was not an experience I would wish on other hon. Members. I noticed how enthusiastic the Mayor of London is about getting his hands on new revenue from the permit regime.

I shall speak briefly about the amendments included in the group. Amendment No. 10 seeks to avoid the administrative nightmare for utility companies of myriad different permit schemes operating across England and Wales. It would integrate an electronic noticing system within any permit scheme to further reduce the administrative overheads. The amendment is in line with the stated intentions of the Minister, who said in Committee:

"The greater the standardisation that the group can achieve, the better"—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 29 January 2004; c. 166.]

The amendment would not prevent account being taken of local circumstances, but would ensure that differing local circumstances were taken into account in the application of a permit scheme, rather than in the scheme itself. A permit scheme needs to be flexible enough to take account of different road types and traffic conditions. Those are the key differentiating factors between local authorities. The amendment is supported by Transport for London, which states that it would prefer a single permit system to operate in London so that information could be easily shared and analysed and administrative burdens minimised.

Amendment No. 11 introduces uniformity by ensuring that the local traffic authority would have to abide by the same conditions as apply to utilities. If permits are an effective way of meeting the overall objectives of reducing congestion caused by obstruction in the road, logic requires that highway authorities should be included. Clause 32(2)(a) states that the permit scheme may make provision as to the persons who require a permit, which does not rule out the highway authority needing a permit for its works. The amendment would make that explicit.

Amendment No. 12 is designed to address the potential conflict between permit schemes and directions under section 56 of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991. It is absurd to have different provisions in different Acts controlling the same set of circumstances. The amendment makes it clear that where a permit is granted, it will take precedence over section 56.

In conclusion, the amendments are supported by the Transport Sub-Committee, which has expressed its grave scepticism about the entire permit scheme and its opposition to the lane rental scheme. It believes that the Government should develop a scheme, which we strongly support, for penalties where utilities take longer than is reasonable to carry out works on the highway. Introducing an additional stealth tax is the wrong way to proceed.

I have considerable sympathy with the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) because the amendments reflect a number of issues that I raised in Committee, especially a permit scheme. I was interested in why he mentioned a stealth tax and the figure of 55 quid. That assumes that the utilities would be subsidising local authorities, it assumes all the costs but none of the savings, and it is a worst-case scenario. To present the situation as the hon. Gentleman did exaggerates points that are validly made.

Did my hon. Friend notice that the hon. Gentleman omitted the effect of the business rate, and told me in response to an intervention that the £22 billion income from the telecoms auction was this Government's stealth tax? As my hon. Friend knows, that was started by another Government.

Order. I hope that in his mind the hon. Gentleman was addressing the Chair, rather than his hon. Friend.

As my hon. Friend says, the 3G licence was in the Conservative party manifesto in 1997, on which the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) fought that election.

I was the shadow spokesman when the measure went through, and I opposed it on behalf of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition on the grounds that it would do great damage to the industry, which it did.

That does not answer the point that the right hon. Gentleman fought an election on that policy, which was proposed by the Government whom he supported. He has a selective memory.

The utilities have expressed concern about the way in which local authorities will operate the permit scheme. There is perceived unfairness in the local authorities' both operating and being subject to the permit scheme. I hope Ministers will discuss that with the utilities. There is also concern among utilities that additional costs will he passed to them and therefore to their customers, particularly in the telecoms industry. That industry is particularly fiercely competitive at the moment and there is not much scope for companies to absorb additional costs. In fact, most of them are fairly efficient. Telecoms works tend to be smaller in size and shorter in duration—many are completed in one day. On Second Reading, the Minister referred to the establishment of a working group to try to ensure that permit schemes take on board the needs and priorities of the economy as a whole. I urge him to consider any recommendations that come from that in relation to the operation of permit schemes.

Most telecoms companies strive to connect customers in line with their requests. There is a danger that all schemes will be treated equally although they do not cause the same amount of damage. Some roadworks are minor and involve non-sensitive roads. Permit schemes must be flexible enough to ensure that different schemes are treated differently otherwise, people's fears about the size and cost of bureaucracy may be realised.

In response to my amendments in Committee, the Minister gave an assurance that permit schemes will be covered by regulations. I welcome that, but urge him to undertake full consultation before implementing the regulations, because the industry fears that that will not happen.

The hon. Member for Christchurch talks about the need for a national permit scheme, or at least one that is consistent across the country. Can the regulations be drafted from the point of view of someone who has to fill in the forms? Many utilities fear that they will have to fill in forms for many different types of scheme. It is important to have not only local variations to adapt to local circumstances, but consistency nationally so that national companies are not faced with myriad different approaches.

The new clause is unnecessary. This is not a stealth tax. There are legitimate concerns, but the hon. Member for Christchurch overstated them and they should be dealt with flexibly in regulations.

I share the worry felt by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about part 3, which gives wide-ranging powers to local authorities that wish to take advantage of them to set up permit schemes. In particular, clause 36(5) gives local authorities substantial powers to set

the amount or maximum amount of any fee,

to decide on

cases in which fees are not to be payable or could be repaid

and on

cases in which fees may be discounted.

They are able to settle

the time and manner of making payment of fees

and

the application of sums paid by way of fees.

In my experience, several local authorities—they are usually under Labour or Liberal Democrat control—are constantly on the lookout for new sources of revenue. As they have many ways of spending, or often wasting, the money, they wish to raise more. I fear that those local authorities would see public utility businesses as a soft target. They would, after all, be following the example of Her Majesty's Government, who saw them as a soft target in the run-up to the 1997 election, confirmed it in the Budget that introduced the utilities windfall tax, and continued it with their whopping auction tax on telecoms. Through this measure, the Government are effectively encouraging local authorities to see that device as a way of raising additional money.

My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch says that there is nothing wrong with a permit scheme, despite the bureaucracy and administrative effort involved, if it achieves the ostensible objective of the provisions. Let us remind ourselves of that objective—it is to say to utility companies that there is a cost to the rest of us when they dig up the street or road, and that it would be a good idea if they did it in a s timely a way as possible, restricted the amount of road that they damaged or dug up at any given time to allow traffic to flow on the remaining part of the carriageway, rather than closing a large amount or all of it, and entered and exited the streetworks at times of day or year that do the least damage to traffic flows in the area concerned.

It is a matter of great concern to many of us that some local highways authorities and utility companies decide to embark on streetworks at the beginning of a busy term just in time for the first day back at school, which always increases traffic dramatically. We often see a cessation or reduction in roadworks during less busy times of year--in the summer holidays, for example, when traffic flows are much less because there is no school run and many more people are away on holiday. We often note that roadworks do not continue over the weekend, when traffic may be rather less. and that there is considerable blockage of the road on the Monday morning or Friday evening peak when traffic congestion is at its worst.

3.15 pm

Therefore, as someone who does not much like administrative intervention and regulation, I can live with the idea that there should be a permit scheme to regulate roadworks in the interests of making better use of the highway and increasing the capacity of the road system, particularly at busy times of day in busy areas. That may be a necessary evil. What worries me, however, is that without the amendment wisely tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, part 3 does not make it clear enough that its only intention is to discipline utilities and to encourage limited entry to the highway and entry only at the least difficult times of day or year. The Bill contains no statement that would prevent a local authority from seeing it as offering up a soft target for raising money.

We argued long and hard in Committee about why the proposals to limit or regulate access to the highway for roadworks do not apply to the public sector, because observation tells us that more often than not it is the highways authority, not the utilities, that does that work. I hope that the Minister will say more about that at the appropriate moment. As the Bill concentrates on the utility companies, it is most important that Ministers understand the strength of feeling on the part of people of all parties and of no party that there are far too many roadworks, that they are badly organised, and that they often run into periods of time or periods of the day when it would be far better if the highway were open to traffic.

The right hon. Gentleman is giving a generalised picture that does not reflect what really goes on. In the case of the telecoms companies, for example, most of the cabling has already been done, so most of the works that remain to be done are minor.

I accept that that means that such work may be much easier to regulate or does not need regulation at all. I would still hope, however, that the highways authority would take a view and suggest to the telecoms utility concerned that it would be good idea to do the work on a dull Sunday rather than a busy Monday. That would be a necessary improvement on the current regime.

I hope that the basis of any guidelines issued under part 3 will be to make more intelligent use of what highway we have and to limit the amount of restrictions upon it. It would be sensible, for example, for highways authorities to point out to water, gas, electricity or telecoms utilities that the repair or replacement work that they are doing can often be done in sections and that it would be possible, at half-past 4 or 5 o'clock at night, when the employees are thinking of going home, to close off the hole in the road again with a temporary or permanent closure of filling or tarmac so that the road can be reopened for use when they are not working on it. It would[ be possible to do something similar to ensure that the road is open for busy morning peaks and that the roadworks can be done thereafter.

Those are the sorts of measures for which the highways authorities should use their permit powers. If the amendment is rejected, however, greedy councils may decide that this is a marvellous opportunity to charge utilities a lot of money for engaging in streetworks and opening up the road. They may not be interested in the overall intention of speeding up the works or having them done at sensible times of the day or year, but may see a lot of advantage in allowing the utility to run on with the works, maximising the inconvenience to motorists, because they will generate more cash from the permit scheme.

I strongly recommend the new clause to the House. Without it, we will end up with another utility stealth tax that will undoubtedly have to be passed on to all our constituents in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch describes.

I wonder whether the new clause moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) is either otiose or entirely at odds with what I thought was our party's policy. I am rather puzzled, following the points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) made. He reminded the House that clause 36(5) says:

Permit regulations may make provision for or in connection with requiring the payment of a fee in respect of an application for a permit or the issue of a permit, including provision as to … the amount or maximum amount of any fee.

My reading of that is that it has the potential to cover the matter that has caused such concern to be expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham. I wonder how much added value there is in the words proposed in the new clause. On the face of it, the Bill as drafted seems to make more than adequate provision.

May I say in passing that I am uncomfortable with the immense degree of bureaucracy involved in this whole exercise? For example, clause 33—which is in part 3, the subject of new clause 2—says:

A local highway authority, or two or more such authorities acting together, may prepare and submit to the appropriate national authority a permit scheme.

That takes us deep into the jungle of bureaucracy—up to our armpits or beyond. We have in that provision the lethal combination of local authorities on the one hand and national bureaucracies on the other. Yet, although I am sorry to say this, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch seems to be adding to that bureaucracy in a most regrettable way.

I may be labouring under a misapprehension, and I am sure that one of my hon. Friends will put me right if I am, but I thought that the whole thrust of my party's policy was local autonomy and local decision making. I have heard many of my right hon. and hon. Friends speak at great length, and with passion, about the need to give local bodies—be they school boards, local authorities or anything else—the maximum possible degree of discretion in making decisions for which they are accountable to their electorate. However, I now find to my astonishment that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has come along with new clause 2, which apparently seeks to overturn that whole philosophy, because it says:

No fee in respect of any application ... shall be set at a level higher than that necessary to cover the administrative costs.

My right hon. Friend protests too much. The purpose of new clause 2 is to signal clearly that the measure is not a tax. Local authorities have other taxes that they impose, but this should be simply an administrative charge that reflects the cost of giving the public something that many of them want: greater access to their roads.

That might be my right hon. Friend's view, but—

It is.

My view, however—as I am the one speaking, I think that my view has primacy at the moment—is that local authorities should be given the scope and freedom to charge a fee. even if we call that a tax, at their discretion, for which they are accountable to their voters. That is the burden of my argument. I thought, in the most peremptory way, that that was the thrust of our policy, but along comes my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and tramples all over that. He is saying, in a heavy-handed way, that he has decided that were new clause 2 to be accepted, local authorities should not have that discretion. However, 1 bet that when my hon. Friend was the eminent, successful leader of Wandsworth borough council, he would have argued for such a stance and said, "Knowing the local conditions in Wandsworth, 1, accountable as I am to my electorate, want us to have the freedom to impose such charges locally as I think are necessary."

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if we are hearing a Tory split, or a Tory filibuster?

No, we are hearing a mature Tory debate of the kind that—

It is a split, then.

I do not want to be drawn into such an argument, but if the hon. Gentleman is saying that in the Labour party, new or old, a debate is now called a split, that tells us quite a lot about his party's mentality. In the new, thrusting, dynamic Conservative party we welcome debate because we are confident of our philosophy, particularly our philosophy on local government autonomy, if I may say so to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that the whole ethos of Wandsworth borough council, when I was privileged to be its leader, was to keep taxes down? We wanted to have low tax rather than to introduce new taxes.

Yes, indeed. That was my hon. Friend's decision, and the people of Wandsworth rewarded him with a continuity of power unequalled in modern times. I am grateful to him for making that point. He made that decision and was rewarded by his electorate for it. Surely he would not now want to deny elected representatives in other local authorities the power to make different decisions for their areas. They might decide in this case, for their own reasons, that higher fees would be appropriate to their circumstances and conditions. That is why I am at a loss to understand why my hon. Friend is trying to persuade the House that somehow, in a Bill—

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the utilities and other companies that will have to pay the costs have expressed concern about the impact that those costs will have on them? That is not the same as the argument that he is making.

I shall carry the argument some way to make my point, but if a local authority were to set fees at a prohibitive level, the utilities might not undertake the repairs and improvements that they wanted to and the local populace would suffer as a result. It would then be for the local voters to make their decision, on the basis that the exorbitant fees being charged by their elected representatives were having a counter-productive effect on their lifestyle. For example. knowing the hon. Gentleman's expertise and interest in such esoteric matters as broadband, I suspect that he thinks that every home should be served by the ghastly internet, and that the horrible material on it should be accessed by every household, perhaps regardless of the cost. I would take a different view, and suggest that if his local authority were wise enough to charge a penal fee to discourage the connection of the ghastly broadband and other internet services, his voters would be very grateful to him and to the local authority.

But who am Ito make such a judgment? I know not about such matters, and they are not for me or, may I say, even for my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch to comment on. He looks pregnant, so I shall give way to him.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will not allow his prejudice against broadband to disguise the fact that there are statutory duties relating to the safety of gas mains and the provision of water, which local authorities need to take into account. If they impose substantial extra taxes on the provision and maintenance of those key facilities, the undertakers will not be able to avoid paying those taxes.

And indeed, to follow that point, the undertakers will not be able to avoid increasing their charges to their consumers, who will then be able to make a market judgment. What puzzles me, coming from my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham, of all people, is that that they seem to be shrinking from allowing a market judgment. In the end, two mechanisms are in play on this point: the political, electoral mechanism of local authorities and the market mechanism between the utilities and their consumers, who happen in this case to be coincidental with the voters. I should have thought that that would appeal to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, and I can see that he is thinking about it, which encourages me to hope that he might reconsider his position. In the end, however, I need to hear much more from him, and I hope that when he winds up this little debate, he will give further arguments to explain why he seems so wedded to a degree of central control and fiat that is completely at odds with his distinguished political history and his political philosophy. That is my problem with new clause 2.

3.30 pm

To return to where I came in, were my right hon. and hon. Friends to want to go down this route in any case, my reading of the original wording of the Bill is that it probably provides sufficient powers in the key phrase

the amount or maximum amount of any fee,

although I accept that that implies a degree of centrality, central control and omniscience—not to say omnipotence—that I find distressing. However, if my right hon. and hon. Friends want the words, they are there in the Bill already, and I hope that they will reconsider the position that they have taken in new clause 2 and seek leave to withdraw it. I am equally horrified by amendment No. 10, because here we are introduced to the phrase

standard provisions which must be included,

which strikes me as amazingly prescriptive, and to the provision

to ensure that a single electronic noticing system may be used.

If my right hon. Friend reads the amendment clearly, he will find that it includes the words

within the authority's area.

so his argument about local autonomy is quite irrelevant. In this amendment, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is preserving the right of the authority to make a recommendation, but saying that it should be consistent throughout the authority area.

Again, that should be a matter for the local authority itself. Why do we need a form of words to be put on the face of the Bill to tell a local authority to do something that it should be perfectly capable of deciding for itself? I do not think that this is a particularly circular argument, or even, dare I say it, a repetitive one, as I have now moved on to amendment No. 10 as opposed to new clause 2. Surely the local authority should be allowed to make its own decision about whether standard provisions should be included, even within its area. It is just conceivable that, if a local authority covered a densely populated urban or suburban area as well as an element of rural hinterland, it might be appropriate to have different provisions for different parts of the area.

Who would feel it incumbent on themselves to come along and put in cold print on the face of a statute these prescriptive requirements that intrude on the decision making of an elected and accountable local authority? A philosophical conflict is built in to what my right hon. and hon. Friends want to say about local authorities in the overall sense—with which I thoroughly agree, and which I applaud and the thrust of what they are saying in new clause 2 and amendment No. 10. All in all, I am a bit unhappy about this, and I am very unhappy to find myself at odds with my right hon. and hon. Friends. I hope that, after the Minister has attempted to persuade the House of his position, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch will take the opportunity to reconsider what he has brought to the House, to think about the overall context in which he is offering it to us, and to avoid any suggestion that this might be a blot on his otherwise immaculate reputation.

Perhaps I can steer a path between the extremes expressed by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), and the eminently sensible contribution from the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth). That is not an unusual thing to say, especially for those of us who spend our time haunting this place on Fridays. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst seems to save up his sensible suggestions for Fridays, but today he is clearly having a good day on a Tuesday, for which I am enormously grateful. He is right to suggest that these proposals are otiose, but I must provide a sting in the tail to his argument. If he is putting forward the broadly social libertarian local autonomy argument, I must part company from him, albeit gently. I agree with the thrust of what he has said, but his suggestions must be implemented within a framework of regulation and guidance.

The new clause is otiose, as the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst suggests, and it tramples over local autonomy. I would also part company with him over his description of today's Conservatives as confident, bright young things compared with what they were in the past. We have to part company at some point.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham gave the game away when he suggested that he wanted to send a signal that this scheme was not about stealth taxes or revenue raising, and that it was merely seeking to cover the cost of administration, as I suggested in Committee. With the greatest of respect, legislation is not the place for sending signals. The Bill should do what it purports to do and no more. The right hon. Gentleman can send signals in a little column inThe Spectator or the Wokingham Gazette or Bugle. but not in the Bill. That would be as inappropriate as the—what is the polite word?—rantings of the hon. Member for Christchurch about the figure of £55 per household. Just because something is repeated often enough, or appears often enough inThe Mail or The Express—

AndThe Sun.

The Mirror or The Sun, whatever you like—anything at the murkier end of what purports to be the media in this country. Just because such things appear often enough, it does not mean that they are true.

On that very point, does the Minister recall "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"? Does not that belie what he has just said?

I do not think that we put a price on that in quite the same way as the hon. Member for Christchurch did when he suggested that the measures would cost £55 per household. So, the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and I have parted company again, which disappoints me as we usually get along so splendidly.

Many of the points made by Conservative Members fall into the trap of seeing the amendment, and all the clauses to which it refers, in total isolation from the rest of the Bill. They included the suggestion that the proposal is a devious scheme to get more money for local authorities, of whatever persuasion. When we consider the measures that the Conservatives constantly refer to in their fight-back for the drivers of middle Britain, and when we consider in detail the implementation of these schemes, there is not a whole lot of difference between the political parties in terms of what they do out there in the big wide world. There is no difference at all, save for the propensity for casualties in their areas.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham suggested that local authorities up and down the country would deliberately carry on street works for as long as possible just to extract as much money as possible from the contractors. That is in stark contrast to the provisions of clauses 16 and 17, and to all that we have said about network management duty. If an authority tried to utilise a permit scheme, suitably applied for and allowed, simply to clog up the streets--which by definition it would—simply to secure a revenue stream, it would not work because of the network management duty.

Will the hon. Gentleman firm up that promise? Is he saying that Ministers will have to ensure that the local authorities insist on speedy street works and will impose only administrative charges on people and not unrealistically high fines?

I would like to go all the way with the right hon. Gentleman in that regard, but I cannot because that issue is outwith the full comprehensive nature of the Bill. I cannot say yes to that question in isolation from the whole range of other elements of the network management duty that we went through in detail in Committee. It was clear from our discussions and from what will be in the guidance that that duty is not simply about the flow of traffic or the speed of that flow. It is not just about the absence of congestion; there is a whole range of things involved, as we explored in Committee. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst that the new clause is otiose, for some of the reasons that he has given, and others.

New clause 2 would mean that a fee for any application for a permit or the issue of a permit could not be set at a level higher than the administrative costs to the permit authority of responding to a permit application, issuing the permit and maintaining a register of permits. I said clearly in Committee, and I repeat that permit schemes are not designed as means of raising extra revenue for local authorities. They are intended as a way of enabling all potentially disruptive activities in the street—be they utility works, local authorities' own works, the placing of skips or whatever—to be managed in an integrated and coordinated way.

Crucially, as my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White) suggested, we have set up a working group on which all those parties sit—the utilities, local authorities and others—and charged them with considering the details of how permit schemes might work and making recommendations to the Government. That will enable us to provide in regulations and guidance that very framework within which—here I come back onside with the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst—those decisions can be made at local level to determine whether those involved want to pursue a permit scheme or otherwise.

I have to say again that the hon. Member for Christchurch goes on and on as though these are schemes—not only those involving permits, but others—that we are about to impose directly by compulsion on each and every highway authority in the land. We are not doing that in any way, shape or form, but we want to work with the parties on which these proposals will have the most direct impact. That will enable us to draw up regulations setting out the standard arrangements applying to the schemes, as well as guidance for those operating schemes and those who would need to apply for permits. By pure coincidence, the first meeting of that working group is being held today. just around the corner.

Among other things, the group will look at exactly what activities would require permits and what level fees should be set at. In considering fee levels, it will look not only at the costs of operating schemes, but, entirely appropriately, at whether it would be sensible to set different fees according to differing circumstances. That involves the flexible standardisation that the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst suggested.

It is appropriate to have a framework, clearly established, within which these decisions can be made, but the whole array of ideas on how to go forward with a permit scheme should be left to the local authority. For instance, should all activities attract the same fee or should the fees be varied according to when, where and how they are carried out? Those involved will also look at how, if at all, permit schemes would fit in with existing arrangements such as that for charging utilities whose works overrun an agreed deadline. We want to give the group the flexibility to look at all those relevant issues.

In the light of the group's work, but above and beyond the working party, we will hold, later in the year, a widespread public consultation on draft regulations before those are brought to Parliament. As the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst suggests, new clause 2 is otiose, but I am a fair man. Broadly, we still have consensus in most of the House, although there is clearly disagreement and disarray in some parts. Having made those comments, I will take this away and consider what the hon. Member for Christchurch has said on the issue so that at a later stage in the Bill's passage through Parliament—in another place—we can perhaps provide more information on the Government's intentions.

I say that deliberately, because when the Bill reaches the end of the legislative process, I want it and the subsequent guidance and regulations to be fully informed by the working group and the involvement of local authorities, utilities and other operators. That will enable us to sign off those regulations and the guidance with as much agreement as we can—in some cases, people subsequently decide that there are all sorts of difficulties with such regulation and guidance—as early as we can. Then we can leave it, within the framework of regulations and guidance, to the local authorities to determine whether they want to pursue a scheme. We will have a look at what the hon. Member for Christchurch has said, by all means, but first we should let the working group have a look at the thing.

Amendment No. 10 would appear to require that regulations made under clause 36 must ensure reasonable consistency between permit schemes. The hon. Gentleman is entirely right: I said in Committee that that would be of use—certainly within authorities, but between authorities as well—if there were some commonalities. I do not want to put too many consensual words in the mouth of the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, but, as he suggests, much that will be needed in terms of standardisation could be dealt with in regulations.

The regulations would have to set out certain standard provisions that were common to all permit schemes, especially in relation to electronic noticing systems. I agree with the hon. Member for Christchurch that it is desirable that there should be some standardisation—I have already alluded to that—but it cannot be sensible to have dozens of entirely different schemes operating in different parts of the country. Many utilities, although not all by any means, work nationally and some standardisation is appropriate, but 1 do not believe that we need such prescription in the Bill, as this issue can safely be dealt with through regulations.

The working group, which we have set up to consider the details of permit regulations and the accompanying guidance, has been asked specifically to consider the issue of standardisation. I suspect that there will be some merit in going down that road. The group will make recommendations to us later in the summer on that and other matters, after which we will again go out to wide public consultation on the way forward.

3.45 pm

Amendment No. 11 is, I understand, intended to enable permit regulations to deal with highway authorities having to obtain permits for their own works and to record those on a permit register. Again, the amendment is unnecessary. The interpretation provision in clause 38(1) already makes it clear that the scope of "works" means that permit schemes can include works carried out under the Highways Act 1980. That covers a wide range of works carried out by highway authorities, including road maintenance works, construction of bridges and introduction of traffic-calming measures.

The regulation-making powers can enable those works to be subject to a permit scheme anyway, taking into account the unavoidably different considerations that apply in regulating the activities of public authorities and private companies.

We have asked the working group looking at permit regulations and guidance to consider how the works carried out by highway authorities can be incorporated within the scope of permit schemes. The aim behind permit schemes is to improve the management of all works in the street, including highway authorities' own works.

Amendment No. 12 would have such effect that a street authority could not give an undertaker a direction relating to the timing of one of its street works where a permit had already been issued for that works. Clause 36(8) provides that regulations made by the appropriate national authority may set out provisions that modify or disapply primary and subordinate legislation. Depending on the exact structure of permit schemes decided on in the light of consultation and the work of the working group, I would expect it to be necessary for the regulations to set aside certain sections of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991, which set down how, where and when works can be carried out. That is needed to ensure, as the hon. Member for Christchurch suggested, that we do not duplicate controls in certain areas.

We have asked the working group to consider which existing legislation should be dealt with in that way. The power to make directions under section 56 of that Act may be one that we would want to set aside in cases where a permit has been issued. Again, that is a matter for the working group to consider rather than for the Bill prescribe. The scope to alter provisions is appropriate and already in place.

In view of my comments and the excellent contribution, by and large, from the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, I am sure that Conservative Members feel able with confidence to withdraw the proposed new clause. As we suggested in Committee, the working groups that are bringing together local authorities, operators, utilities and other interests should put the real framework in place, so that we can take matters forward. 1 seriously ask the hon. Member for Christchurch to withdraw the new clause so that we maintain the consensus—shaky though it may now appear—that has driven us thus far on Report.

We have had an excellent debate and, as with that on new clause 1, it was all the better for the fact that the Liberal Democrats did not participate.

The debate centred largely on intellectual and philosophical purity. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) and I are on one side of the argument; my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) is on the other. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst identified a paternalistic streak in me but in the past, a paternalistic streak was found in him—when my right hon. Friend was forced, probably against his intellectual judgment, to regulate activity centres following the Lyme bay tragedy, in direct response to a private Member's Bill presented by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson). Neither my right hon. Friend nor I can say, much as we might wish, that we are absolutely consistent in our intellectual purity.

Surely my hon. Friend accepts that I was a Minister then. He is only in the Opposition now.

Is my right hon. Friend saying that he was a pressed man, whereas I am volunteering?

Something like that.

If that is the best mitigation that my right hon. Friend can put forward, I leave it to others to judge.

I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend did not highlight that the House is being bypassed by the vast range of regulation-making powers in the Bill--particularly in that part to which new clause 2 relates. Only a few days ago, a leading article in theFinancial Times stated that regulation is the new clause IV. The Government are using regulation instead of nationalisation to achieve their objectives. The Bill contains an enormous number of regulation-making powers over which the House will have little control.

The issue is whether one believes in low taxes, be they transparent or imposed by stealth—though we are against stealth taxes. We want low taxation. We want to protect householders from the £55 per annum burden represented by part 3. The figures have not been dreamt up by me but are the result of careful analysis by the National Joint Utilities Group. When we put the new clause to the vote, as we intend, those who support it will be voting on behalf of hard-pressed householders by saying, "We do not think that you should be burdened with an extra £55 a year on your utility bills." Those right hon. and hon. Members who enter the No Lobby will be saying that they are indifferent to those householders' plight.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:— The House divided: Ayes 175, Noes 285.

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 6—Bus lanes (use by other vehicles)—

All bus lanes where buses are moving in the same direction as traffic in the adjacent or vehicle lane shall be open to use by cycles, motorcycles, licensed taxis and invalid vehicles.

It must be about 25 years ago that the first bus lane was introduced in the United Kingdom. I think that it is appropriate, as this Bill is before us, that we take a look again at the operation of bus lanes in the UK to see whether we can strike a better balance and get more use out of bus lane capacity. All too often, we see empty bus lanes and congestion in other lanes. For much of the day in some cities, traffic is at a standstill, while alongside that congestion there are empty bus carriageways. When bus lanes were introduced, they were sold to the public as a way of decreasing pollution by allowing buses to have quicker access to and from city centres. The argument went that if people caught the bus they would find that their journey was quicker because the bus would be able to use a dedicated bus lane. We were told that that was the environmentally friendly way to travel. However, I think we would all accept—at least I hope we would all accept—that bus lanes have not worked as well as we were told they would on their introduction. The reason for that is that, in many city centres during the rush hour, a third of the road capacity in one direction in some cases, and in others up to half the road capacity, is taken up with a dedicated bus lane.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that enforcement of bus lane discipline is sadly lacking? I do not know whether he shares my experience but, driving in London, I see a rather regrettable number of violations of bus lanes, with apparently very little effort to enforce them. Does he not agree that enforcement, together with his proposal, would make a great difference?

I would warn drivers who think that they can use the bus lane without getting caught to take care, because cameras have been installed at the front of buses to act as a video policing unit and record the details of any vehicle transgressing the current rules. I welcome that development. My right hon. Friend is right that enforcement has been and remains to some extent a problem, but detection rates are on the up because of the use of new technology.

Law-abiding drivers have to sit in their cars in long traffic queues, increasing not only pollution but anger and frustration.

They could get on the bus.

Contrary to that sotto voce contribution, that is not an option that is available or appropriate to every motorist. Some people find that, although the bus may cover part of their journey, if they are travelling to a rural area such as East Yorkshire, the service is either woefully inadequate or non-existent. It is simplistic attitudes such as the hon Gentleman's that got us into this position. Many motorists cannot use a bus because it does not take them where they need to go. The enemy here should be pollution, not the motor car. As cars become less polluting, his attitude towards them should become more benign.

Given that bus lanes do not work as well as we were told they would 25 years ago, it is now appropriate to reconsider the rules and guidance on their operation and try to make them work better. New clause 4 is designed to encourage car sharing. Its scope does not extend to contraflow carriageways: I do not argue that those should be opened up to other traffic, but a with-flow carriageway could be used by shared cars.

This is not a unique or new proposition. Car sharing is encouraged in many states in the United States of America. If there are more than two passengers, the car is entitled to use a dedicated lane. There is a real incentive to share a journey and thereby reduce car use, in turn reducing congestion.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) was concerned in an earlier debate about taking discretion away from local authorities. I accept that the new clause would do that, but I say good, because they have been singularly unimaginative in their approach to tackling this problem. I do not say that the Minister was misleading, but I do not think he painted an accurate picture when he replied to a similar debate in Committee. He gave the impression that it is all down to the local authority, but I have obtained a copy of the guidance issued by his Department, and it is not neutral on the subject.

On page 15 of "Keeping Buses Moving" there is a reference to other vehicles using bus lanes. It says that this

could encourage the rather different result of a switch to car sharing by public transport passengers.

However, it does not go on to say why reaction over here should be any different from what happens in the United States. The next paragraph says:

It is considered that while there can be no general case for allowing high occupancy vehicles to use bus lanes, there may be special situations where a high occupancy lane would be justified.

The guidance is designed to dissuade local authorities from introducing bus lanes that other vehicles could use. That is a shame, and whether or not the Minister feels that local authorities should continue to have such flexibility, I hope that he will say today that ministerial encouragement should be given to innovation in this area. I also hope that he is prepared to encourage local authorities to establish whether car sharing in the United Kingdom would help to decrease the congestion that is all too often present in urban areas, not just in rush hours but for most of the day.

I do not intend to detain the House for very long on this subject, but I want to discuss a very real problem that I have encountered. I have discussed it with the Department, but I received a factual reply that did not deal with it at all. I ask the Minister to give a moment's thought to the unfortunate milkmen in inner-city areas. Milk floats, which are by definition extremely slow and rather unwieldy, rightly have to avoid inner bus lanes because they would constitute a hazard. But delivering to customers in inner-city areas has become so difficult that many milkmen do not know how to proceed. One unfortunate milkman incurred £450 worth of fines in one week, which was more than he earned. If we as a nation want to encourage people to continue to buy bottled milk, we should think seriously about this issue.

I should tell the Minister that I do not have any pet solutions—would that I did—but the traffic authorities need to be told that we desperately need such small tradesmen to continue to offer a service, particularly in urban areas. If they cannot deliver, they will soon give up trying and make their money elsewhere, which would be to the detriment of such services.

In talking about clearing bus lanes, we should also consider the plight of the service provider during certain working hours. I do not pretend that finding a solution will be simple, but unfortunately, the suggestion that milk be delivered during the night—superficially, that seems a good answer—ignores the fact that if it is delivered at such times in urban areas, it is not on the doorstep when the householder gets up in the morning.

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I am happy to give way on the subject of milk bottles.

Is the hon. Lady suggesting to the Minister that small delivery vehicles should be exempt from bus lane rules? I would have a lot of sympathy with such a proposal.

I hesitate to suggest that, but we do need to find a way to enable people to continue to deliver goods. I do not have a lot of sympathy for the very large chains, which could organise their deliveries accordingly and keep people on at night to open up stores and let in deliveries; however, for individual tradesmen this problem constitutes a significant hazard. Indeed, it is worrying many people and putting them off wanting to do the job.

Would that I had an answer for the Minister. This is perhaps a unique parliamentary occasion, in that I have nothing to suggest, but he need only tell me that he will think hard about the matter and come up with a usable scheme.

The intention behind new clause 4 is laudable. Given the need to reduce congestion, any suggestion that involves cars carrying more than one passenger is good in principle. The difficulty lies in the practical enforcement. I suspect that one of two scenarios will arise. To enforce the provision, an enormous amount of extra resources will have to be invested to provide more cameras to watch bus lanes; or we will end up like the United States, where there is a booming trade in suitcases containing pop-up secondary figures, which can be placed in the front passenger seat in order to fool traffic wardens and police officers. It is then going to be a waste of time, and it will also defeat the object of reducing congestion. On some urban roads where there are regular bus services—let us say every eight, 10 or 15 minutes—the congestion will clearly be worsened by cars being allowed into the bus lanes.

I am more than happy, however, to support new clause 6, proposed by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood). It is eminently sensible and it highlights the current problem of enormous local variations, which leave many cyclists and motor cyclists confused as to whether they can or cannot use bus lanes. I hope that the Government will therefore accept new clause 6, but the Liberal Democrats cannot support new clause 4.

Does my hon. Friend agree that for single user travel, motor cycles represent an environmental benefit compared to cars; secondly, that motor cyclists are on the whole pretty responsible in their use of bus lanes; and, thirdly, that the Government themselves promised before 1997 to put motor cycles at the heart of their transport strategies? Would it not be odd if the Government now refused to take seriously the provisions of new clause 6, so sensibly proposed by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood)?

I agree with my hon. Friend and I hope that the Minister will deal with that in his reply.

As I said before, I would be interested to know whether the Conservative Front Benchers have costed the enforcement of the provisions in order to transform what seems to be a good idea into a practical outcome that would reduce congestion.

I rise to support my new clauses 4 and 6. With the oral amendment suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight)—that this should apply only to bus lanes where the traffic is moving in the same direction in and adjacent to the lane—new clause 4 makes a great deal of sense. Furthermore new clause 4 is complementary to my new clause 6. There is some overlap. For example, under new clause 4, a taxi with a passenger would automatically be able to use the bus lane, because it would be a

vehicle with two or more passengers.

Depending on the definition of "vehicle", the same would apply to a motor cycle with a passenger and there are other overlaps with public service vehicles.

I hope that, on further reflection after hearing my remarks, my right hon. Friend might see the advantages of my new clause 6, as the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Marsden) has kindly done. The purpose of both new clauses is, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, to make greater use of the space of a bus lane without in any way impeding the progress of the bus. The purpose of the bus lane is to allow the bus to hit faster journey times with greater reliability. I do not believe that the proposals in either new clause—certainly not in new clause 6—would in normal circumstances get in the way of achieving that.

In the case of new clause 6, I would argue that there are not only advantages stemming from greater use of the highway, but overriding safety considerations, to which I should like to draw the House's attention. The Liberal Democrats have briefly referred to them and I would have thought that they would recommend themselves to Ministers. Under the new clause,

cycles, motorcycles, licensed taxis and invalid vehicles

would be entitled to use the bus lane. The case for each is a little different, as I should like to explain.

First, there is the cycle or push bike. I believe that it is very dangerous for cyclists in busy urban areas—where bus lanes are usually located—to have to jostle between large and sometimes fast-moving buses on the inside lane and every sort of vehicle ranging from fast cars to extremely heavy lorries on the outside lane, especially on narrow highways that may not initially have been designed to have both a bus lane and a mixed-vehicle lane in the same place.

According to the highway code, cyclists should occupy the inside of the mixed-vehicle lane, which means that they are just on the outside of the bus lane. That can be an extremely dangerous position. A bus can whistle along in the bus lane, which its driver can reasonably expect to be free. However, the driver must make the difficult judgment about whether a cyclist has the extra inches of clearance at the edge of the bus lane necessary for the safe passage of both vehicles. At the same time, the drivers of cars or lorries in the other lane might be attempting to overtake the cyclist, not realising that a bus is about to create the pressure—or pinch point—on the cyclist. That often leaves very little wobble room for the cyclist. [Interruption.] I see that the Minister is yawning, but he should appreciate the plight of cyclists in this respect. Although a bicycle may be correctly placed on the road, there may be a little overhang in the bus lane.

Yes, I did yawn, partly because the right hon. Gentleman is going on at such length. Unless a local authority says otherwise, cyclists are permitted to use cycle lanes. That is why I was looking a little bored.

That is right, and if a cycle lane is provided along with a bus lane and a mixed-vehicle lane, my argument does not apply. However, there are many locations in the areas in which I travel regularly where there is no cycle lane parallel to the bus and mixed-vehicle lanes. My brief analysis of the cyclist's plight is very relevant and the Minister should listen carefully. I speak for many cycling interests outside the House. They would tell the Minister how perilous it can be to occupy the exposed—but correct—position on the highway, between fast travelling buses and relatively slow travelling other vehicles. That is where cyclists can get squeezed.

Perhaps my right hon. Friend and I can shake the Minister out of his boredom. Is he aware that, in 1995, the Conservative Government gave the go-ahead for a trial in the Bristol area allowing motor cyclists to use bus lanes? A period of assessment was given to determine whether there was any detrimental effect on safety, and I understand that the safety record was excellent. Is it not now time for us to grasp the opportunity and introduce the provision elsewhere?

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, and I shall come to the subject of motor cycles when I have finished talking about cyclists. New clause 6 would give cyclists the choice about where to ride. I think that most would prefer to ride in the bus lane, close to the kerb. There are fewer buses than other vehicles, and bus drivers would be aware that cyclists could be encountered there. As they approached from behind, bus drivers would be under a duty to move out around the cyclist if there was a potential conflict. Cyclists in that position would not then face the twin pressures of the mixed-vehicle lane and the bus lane at the same time.

My proposal means, however, that cyclists could be on the inside of the mixed-vehicle lane and the bus lane, if that is what made sense in the circumstances. Also, a cyclist who wanted to turn right would have to move over to the inside of the mixed-vehicle lane to complete the manoeuvre. Cyclists would therefore have greater flexibility. They are the most vulnerable of road users, and that necessary extra flexibility would be welcome.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is a potential problem here? Cyclists who use the inside of the designated bus lane—which I hope will include vehicles in multiple occupation—force the drivers of buses and other vehicles to move out when they want to pass. That partly blocks the mixed-vehicle lane. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is possible that the total traffic flow will slow down as a result? Has he taken that into account?

I have taken it into account, but the problem is not major. The advantage of my proposal is that, in normal circumstances, the bus will be travelling much more quickly than the cyclist. The manoeuvre involved will therefore take only a very limited time. There will be problems in very heavy traffic, but I submit that even bigger problems will remain if this extra flexibility that I propose is not given to cyclists. The congestion incident that my right hon. Friend described will still occur, but cyclists would occupy a different position on the highway. If the highway is not wide enough to accommodate bike, bus and other vehicles—the analysis offered by my right hon. Friend—it will not be wide enough to accommodate bus, bike and other vehicles, which is the disposition covered by my new clause. I think, therefore, that my right hon. Friend's point is not strong: the case is neutral, because both analyses reveal that a problem is created when a highway is too narrow to accommodate a bus lane and another lane.

4.30 pm

My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire has indicated that motor cycles are a different case. The extra flexibility would be a good idea for them, because we have all experienced motor cyclists weaving in and out of heavy traffic to get to the front of the queue and optimise the power and relative thinness of their machines compared with other vehicles. Giving motor cyclists the choice between the bus lane or the multiple-occupancy vehicle lane would probably help to minimise incidents in which they collide with wing mirrors or other parts of vehicles in the multiple-occupancy vehicle lane.

Motor cycles would not get in the way of buses because in practically every case they have better performance than buses and obviously keep themselves well out of the way, normally by accelerating away from contact. Such flexibility would be an added welcome freedom for motor cyclists and would reduce conflicts between them and other vehicles. They are currently crowded into the multiple-occupancy vehicle lane and cannot get into the bus lane to get free of other vehicles, which might reduce collisions as bus lanes tend not to be used and are more likely to contain free space for motor cyclists.

The Motor Cycle Industry Association has examined the evidence and made it clear that it is safer for motor cyclists and better for the environment to make it easier for people to use two wheels instead of four when they choose to travel alone. That point is born out by the expert literature, includingMotor Cycle News, which backs up the right hon. Gentleman's point that there is no downside to allowing motor cyclists in bus lanes because buses will never be held up by higher-performing motor cycles.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman's views. Motor cycles will not normally hold up buses, and allowing them to go in bus lanes will give them greater flexibility. The multiple-occupancy vehicle lane is often congested, which makes it difficult for motor cyclists and other vehicle users.

The green argument, which probably informed much of the original work on bus lanes, contains a mistake. The sad truth is that buses travel around this country with, on the whole, few occupants. The average bus has only nine passengers, although occupancy is obviously much better during rush hours in urban areas. If a bus is travelling around with so few passengers, it is, of course, a less green option than all those people travelling in their respective modern motor cars. The average bus is quite old and average fuel efficiency is very poor as a result. It is a less green option to switch people out of modern cars into older buses unless the buses achieve high occupancy rates, which is a point that should inform debate on the selection of bus lanes. The green argument for bus lanes only holds in areas in which high occupancy can be obtained with frequent services that people can rely on.

The case for licensed taxis is easy. Licensed taxis are, after all, public service vehicles that offer a service to the general public, and they often help those who find it most difficult to get around in our community. I should have thought that they, like buses, should obtain some advantage from the use of privileged lanes. That is not only my view but that of many Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative councils around the country, which can allow taxis in bus lanes.

In many cities, oddly, some bus lanes allow taxis and others do not. In some cities, some lanes are taxi friendly and others are not. Such situations make it difficult for novice taxi drivers, and taxi passengers cannot understand why they sometimes buy an advantage and other times do not. A general measure to allow taxis in bus lanes would be welcome to taxi drivers and passengers countrywide. The point is certainly important in the evenings when people want to go out. If it were easier and cheaper to use taxis because they travel quickly down bus lanes, it would encourage people to use them rather than their own cars, and if people are tempted to have a drink there is no possible danger to them or other road users.

Finally, invalid vehicles are slow-moving vehicles used by some of the most vulnerable people in our community. I am not saying that they must use the bus lane—it is difficult for them to decide where they should go on a busy road with both a bus lane and a multiple-occupancy vehicle lane but it would be good to give them the choice because some of them might feel safer if, like bicycles, they travelled close to the curb with a threat from one stream of traffic only rather than having to travel in the multiple-occupancy vehicle lane. That lane probably contains a threat from both types of traffic because invalid vehicles are often relatively narrow and other vehicles think that they can get past them, which is not always the case on a narrow stretch of two-lane road.

It must be terrifying for some people in those vehicles on busy roads with two lanes, where they are sandwiched in the middle. I would like to give them the choice. They would not have to use the bus lane, but they would probably welcome the choice. I hope that I can persuade my right hon. and hon. Friends and the Liberal Democrats to agree with new clause 6, and I am happy to support new clause 4, especially with the amendment to make it clear that it does not apply to contraflow bus lanes.

I admit that I am puzzled by what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) has just said. I am not sure that there is an amendment to new clause 4. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) tried to slip one in, rather cleverly, but I am not sure that it is valid. I am therefore puzzled as to whether I am debating the wording as it appears on the amendment paper, which states:

Any motor vehicle with two or more passengers shall be entitled at any time to use any carriageway marked out as a bus lane.

Perhaps my right hon. Friend, by some parliamentary sleight of hand of which I was hitherto unaware, has managed to change it to resemble more closely new clause 6.

I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) was hoping that the Minister would think that his suggestion was a good idea and would wish to have a similar amendment tabled in the other place.

It remains to be seen whether my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire wishes the Minister to take up the wording on the amendment paper or the wording of his verbal amendment. I thought that I would try to clarify that point, and I am not sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham has helped me to do so.

I approach the issue from my experience of driving on the 1-5, which passes through Seattle, between Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, British Columbia. On a lengthy stretch of that road, which is arguably one of the busiest interstates in the USA, especially at rush hour, there is a traffic lane dedicated to vehicles carrying two or more persons. From my observation of that experiment, it works well and makes a lot of sense. It is not a theoretical exercise, but a practical one. We can look to such examples, especially in the United States, and draw on them.

Do I detect a slight imbalance in the amount of road space used by roads in the United States, especially in Oregon, compared with this country? From personal experience, Oregon is a rather larger county than any of the ones that the right hon. Gentleman and I normally deal with. Would not the space available affect the issue?

The good people of Oregon would be extremely upset if their state were referred to as a county. It is a great state and it is indeed fairly large. We should bear it in mind that our entire country could fit into the state of Wyoming, which has a population of only some 500,000. However, it would appear that that is a thought upon which you do not wish me to dwell, Mr. Deputy Speaker, given the expression on your face. I take the hon. Lady's point. The United States has more space, generally speaking, for carriageways, even in the urban area of Seattle, but American vehicles are wider than ours. I do not wish to press the parallel to the distress of the hon. Lady, whose knowledge of such matters is greater than mine is ever likely to be. I simply raised the issue as a tentative example of how allowing a lane to be dedicated to a certain type of vehicle, whether for buses or vehicles in multiple occupation, is probably a good idea and seems to work well.

The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Marsden) raised a reasonable point about enforcement, which ties into the intervention I made as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire introduced new clause 4. If there is a problem, it is the lack of proper enforcement of the bus lanes that already exist. To that extent, there might be a concomitant problem of enforcement if the new regime were put in place. but that is an argument for more effective enforcement in general rather than a specific objection to new clause 4. I hope that the Minister will examine the proposal positively following the debate and bear the enforcement point in mind.

I generally followed the argument that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham deployed when he spoke to new clause 6, although with the reservation that I expressed in my intervention. If we encouraged cycles and motor cycles, especially, to use such designated bus lanes, it might exacerbate traffic congestion because larger vehicles such as buses might be caused to swerve around two-wheeled vehicles and thus perhaps obstruct the mixed vehicle lane. However, I accept my right hon. Friend's analysis that that would probably be a price worth paying and that, given the benefits that we would get and the encouragement that the measure would give to people to use two-wheeled vehicles, it should probably at least be tried.

The introduction of pilot schemes and observing how the system would work might be worth exploring, although that suggestion is not explicitly provided for in the new clauses. We do not need to rush into such schemes completely when we embark on them. I am sure that the Minister accepts that pilot schemes are often a good idea, especially when assessing such suggestions. Perhaps different variations of the scheme could be tried and observed.

We thus come to the intriguing difference between new clause 4—before the attempted verbal amendment on the hoof by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire, which was a novel parliamentary experiment—which would allow any carriageway to be used, and the more explicit provision drafted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham in new clause 6, which would apply if traffic were

moving in the same direction

as buses. Perhaps, again, it would be worth piloting different approaches. I am intrigued by the prospect of contraflow traffic containing a mixture of different vehicles. It might sound like a recipe for chaos on the face of it, but it might work perfectly well and ease traffic flow in some circumstances. I would not want to dismiss either formulation out of hand. We could easily accept either formulation, determine how it works and find out how it could be extended nationwide.

My right hon. Friends have done us a great service by proposing such imaginative and experimental ideas. I hope that the Minister is in an imaginative mood, although he does not seem to be in any sort of mood except a somnolent one. When he replies to the debate, I hope that he will sparkle, impress on us the fact that he has grasped all the imaginative suggestions, and say that he might be prepared to carry them forward, rather than laying the dead hand of officialdom and bureaucracy on them, as is, regrettably, all too often the way. This is a bit of a challenge to the Minister. We have put the suggestions forward—I am happy to support them—and rather than dismissing them out of hand, I hope that he will give us some encouragement and indicate that he will be prepared to consider them, perhaps through pilot schemes or experiments, so that when we come into government, we can report back to the House that they have been successful.

I shall endeavour to sparkle this afternoon, as suggested by the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth). I agreed with the points made by the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) at the start of his speech when he said that we want better use of our roads and bus lanes. I did not quite follow his argument about buses in East Yorkshire, however, because when I was last there, I did not see many bus lanes in some of the rural areas—they were mainly in more urban areas. Perhaps he will inform the House where they are. He will know the area far better than I do.

4.45 pm

The arguments that we have had today were well rehearsed in Committee, and I am delighted that we are hearing them again today. Bus lanes are generally provided to enable buses to avoid the queues that occur in congested road networks. The higher carrying capacity of buses means that the lanes make efficient use of road space in terms of moving people, and the quicker and more reliable journey times that follow make buses a more attractive and realistic option, thus further relieving pressure on the road network. The more other vehicles are allowed to use bus lanes, the more the purpose and effectiveness of those lanes is devalued.

New clause 4 would effectively turn all bus lanes into high-occupancy vehicle lanes. It is easy to envisage that bus lanes would become choked by other traffic and that the presence of other vehicles in a bus lane would encourage the drivers of single-occupancy vehicles or those carrying just one passenger to use the lane as well. That would delay buses and lead to enforcement problems.

The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire talked about using new technology such as cameras to enforce bus lanes. Of course, cameras can be used to distinguish between buses and other vehicles, but there is considerably more difficulty in distinguishing whether a car has one, two or three occupants, as the new clause would require. That is why the enforcement of high-occupancy vehicle lanes in Leeds and south Gloucester relies on a police presence and the ability to stop vehicles apparently contravening the rules. There was a complaint from one lady who had a small child strapped in the back of her car who, of course, was not visible to the police officer from outside the car. There are difficulties and anomalies in trying to enforce such rules.

I recognise that, in the right place, high-occupancy vehicle lanes can be an effective traffic management measure, and the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst will be pleased to know that, later this year, my Department will be publishing guidance to authorities on the implementation of such lanes. Who knows, in the very long term, when the right hon. Gentleman and I are well retired, there may be a Conservative Government implementing some of these plans.

rose—

I was just coming to the right hon. Gentleman's point about high-occupancy vehicle lanes, but I will give way.

We welcome what the Minister said about issuing guidance. Will it be general guidance that, in effect, updates what is now the seven-year-old guidance on bus lanes? The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) raised an interesting point. The original guidance referred only to heavy goods vehicles using bus lanes in some cases, and there may be a case for short-run delivery vehicles being included as well. Will the guidance be all-embracing?

The guidance will relate to high-occupancy vehicles.

I do not have the experience of the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst of travelling in the United States of America, but I think that I have travelled on the road outside Seattle to which he referred. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), I noticed that it was rather wider than even the widest motorways in this country. I noticed also that it had no bus lane but rather a high-occupancy vehicle lane, whereas the new clauses relate to bus lanes, which are mainly in confined urban areas that in no way equate to the great intercity highways of the USA. Interesting though his point was, it does not easily read across to this country.

My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich made an interesting point about the problem for milk floats and other service providers. The milk float in my area arrives at 4 am, making a considerable noise and usually waking me up at the same time. I accept that there is a problem, because for people who find it difficult to get to the shops those deliveries are a lifeline. Delivery companies also provide employment. She asked if I would go away and think hard. I certainly shall, as long as she does likewise. I would be happy to put our brains together to find a solution.

rose—

The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) is offering to join us in a troika to solve the problem.

Has the Minister thought about bus lanes' hours of operation, because milk floats often go out early, so they may not conflict with the frequent service provided by buses? Is it not possible to make the bus lane inoperable early in the morning so that delivery vehicles can use it?