rose to move to resolve

1. That, in order that each House of Parliament may have immediate knowledge at first hand of statements made in the other House in times of national emergency, it is desirable that the privilege of being present at debates, by long custom accorded by each House of Parliament to the members of the other House, should not be withdrawn on the occasion of any Secret Sitting.

2. That, when an Order is made in this House for a Secret Sitting, notice thereof shall be sent to the other House, and that any member of the House of Commons present in this House when a Secret Sitting is about to begin, or seeking admission during the sitting, shall, notwithstanding any Order for the withdrawal of strangers, be invited to remain so long as he shall think fit during the sitting.

3. That a Message be sent to the House of Commons communicating the foregoing Resolutions, and recommending that, if that House shall concur in the first of these Resolutions, an Order of that House, in terms similar to those of the foregoing second Resolution, might be made.

My Lords, I waited before rising to ascertain whether any noble Lord who speaks with greater experience of the House and therefore with greater authority than myself had any advice to give to your Lordships upon this subject, but inasmuch as nobody has risen I seize the opportunity of offering, not the opinions of the Government, because this is not really a matter for the Government either to decide or even to advise upon, but the personal opinion which, for my own part, I entertain upon the matter.

The noble Lord who has moved this Resolution and who has been a very active and, if I may say so, already a successful reformer as regards the procedure of your Lordships' House, commenced by saying that this is not the first occasion on which he has raised this matter. I think it was in July last that he asked a question on the subject, and on that occasion in my absence the noble Viscount, Lord Sandhurst, was kind enough to give a reply. Lord Sandhurst said on that occasion, and said with truth, that—as I repeat now this is a matter not for the decision of the Government but for the decision of the House. Each House decides, on a Motion made by one of its members and by its own vote, whether there shall be a Secret Session for this or that purpose of the highest public importance, and when it is so decided, or if it is so decided, the regulation of its procedure is obviously in its own hands.

My noble friend Lord Southwark rested his case this afternoon upon two propositions. The first was that it might be a convenience to those member of your Lordships' House who have to make Ministerial statements to ensure that their statements are identical with those which are made in another place. I do not know what has been the experience of noble Lords who have preceded me in the office which I happen at present to hold, but I hope it will not generally be regarded as true that there is a discrepancy between the authoritative Ministerial statements made in one House and those made in the other. I am quite sure my noble friend Lord Lansdowne, who long occupied the position which I now hold, will bear me out when I say that those who occupy that position take the utmost trouble to make their statements correspond; and I hope that, broadly speaking, it may be laid down that, although there must be differences in phraseology, the situation does not occur in which there is any marked difference between the Ministerial statements made in one House and those made in the other; at least, I should be very sorry if that were the case, and it would argue, I think, considerable blame for the persons concerned.

The second reason of the noble Lord was, I think, a stronger one. He argued that the members of both Houses have a great interest in what takes place in the other House of Parliament, and that if they have not a natural right to know what is said there, at any rate they have a reasonable claim to know what is said on important occasions by representatives of the Government. There I am with him. But I think I would rest the case myself, if this House is disposed to consider it, upon another ground. I would regard it rather as an act of courtesy and of hospitality which the noble Lord invites us in this House to extend to the other House of Parliament. Now, Secret Sessions are not of frequent occurrence here. I have not had time to go into the history of the case, but I should be surprised if I were wrong in saying that the Secret Session which was held here, I think two years ago, and which I remember was inaugurated by the noble Marquess who sits opposite by a speech made from this Bench, was the first occasion for many, many years in which a Secret Session had been held. There have been none since, although the Government were quite willing to consider the request, if such a request were made.

Like the noble Lord who has just spoken, I am not very much enamoured of Secret Sessions myself, and I believe the general sense of this House would be against them, except on rare occasions when information that ought not to be given to the public or that cannot be divulged to the enemy has to be stated in Parliament. It is desirable as a general proposition that the debates of this House—I do not speak of the other House, although I think the same considerations apply in a greater degree—should be public and should appear subsequently in the Press. I only make that general observation by way of suggesting that Secret Sessions are an incident which is likely to be of most infrequent occurrence in the future, and I am not certain that the experience of another place in this war would predispose them to any frequent repetition of this form of Session. Therefore the act of courtesy which the noble Lord invites us to tender is one which, as I suggest, will be of very rare occurrence indeed, and which need not be regarded as affecting the ordinary every-day procedure of our House. My own inclination, therefore, would be, subject to anything that may be said by your Lordships after I have spoken, to say that the suggestion of the noble, Lord is one which we might reasonable accept, and one which might be offered as an act of courtesy to the other House of Parliament.

As regards the reciprocal action that may be taken, and that the noble Lord hopes will be taken, by the House of Commons, I have no right to speak. The noble Lord himself, I gathered from what he said, has been in conversation with friends of his in another place and has learned from them that they would be favourably disposed towards his suggestion. I have not had the same opportunities as he has had, perhaps, of conversing with members of the House of Commons. But still I am inclined to think, on general grounds, that the suggestion is one which they would be more likely to entertain favourably than the reverse. However that may be, the House of Commons are the masters of their own procedure and the judges of their own conduct, and I should be the last, speaking on behalf of the Government, to make any suggestion as to the way in which they will act, or ought to act, in the present case. My own inclination would be to ask your Lordships to accept the suggestion of my noble friend as an act of courtesy to the House of Commons, affecting only, and pledging only, ourselves, and leave them to take such action as regards their own procedure in the future as they may think fit to adopt.

My Lords, like the noble Earl who leads the House, I feel that this is not a matter in which the opinion of any individual, even of those who sit on the Front Government Bench, can be regarded as paramount or conclusive. It is essentially a matter for the House as a whole; and it is only because I happen to be a very old member of the House that I rise to say a word in following my noble friend opposite.

On the general question of the reasons for holding Secret Sessions, I am disposed to say "ditto" absolutely to the noble Earl. They ought, in my opinion, to be held only for the purpose of communicating to Parliament information which cannot, during the war, be made public for national reasons. They certainly ought not to be regarded as mere opportunities of indulging in private in rhetoric which it is not desired to see printed in the newspapers. They ought to be strictly confined to business and to the communication of information; possibly to the asking of questions, to induce further information, by those who are not members of the Government. I entirely agree also with my noble friend that there can be no objection to the sending forward of this Resolution. If and when a Secret Session is held in this House. I cannot conceive that any of your Lordships could take exception to the presence in the Galleries of members of the House of Commons. That House, as the noble Earl has stated, is master of its own procedure; and if the House of Commons desires to extend a similar invitation to us I have no doubt that some of your Lordships would be glad to attend and to receive such secret information as may there be divulged. There can, I take it, be no objection; indeed, rather the contrary; because, as the noble Earl indicated, an arrangement which seems to establish a friendly tie between the two Houses can be only agreeable and advantageous in itself. I therefore support the suggestion made by my noble friend opposite, and I hope that none of your Lordships will desire to oppose it.

My Lords, I move that this Report be considered and agreed to.

My Lords, I profoundly regret that this Bill should not be presented to your Lordships for Second Reading by my noble friend Lord Cowdray. The Bill marks a notable stage in the progress and evolution of our Air Service, which progress, I believe, has been made possible only by the power of organisation, by the experience in handling big things, and by the knowledge of men possessed by my noble friend Lord Cowdray. Circumstances, however, being what they are, it falls to my lot to lay this Bill before your Lordships.

At the beginning of the war, in aerial matters, as, indeed, in all other directions, there was hasty extemporisation by the War Office and by the Admiralty. Both the Navy and the Army tried to expand as rapidly as possible; and before very long a fresh agency, in the form of the Ministry of Munitions, became closely concerned. Competition existed between the two Services almost amounting to a friendly rivalry. That rivalry was healthy in its essence, but, of course, it produced overlapping. Over-lapping always spells waste—waste not only in personnel and in material, but, what is much more serious, in effort and in concentration. The old pre-war Air Committee was then revived under Lord Derby, and it made its contribution towards unification. That was followed in May of last year by the new Air Board, under the presidency of the present Leader of this House, which, again, rendered good service. Finally, in December of last year, Lord Cowdray took charge of the present Board; and I think the best tribute to its smooth and harmonious working can be found in the fact that the representatives of the Navy and of the Army upon that Board never once found occasion to use their right of appeal to the Departments which had placed them upon that Board.

May I refer in a word or two to the constitution of the Air Board as it exists to-day? It consists of a President, of a Parliamentary Secretary, of a representative of the Admiralty, of a representative of the Army Council, and of two members from the Ministry of Munitions. The Air Board has no advisory staff. It provides the machines, but it has no control whatever over training. It is responsible for equipment, but it knows nothing of the pilot; and officially. I believe, it is completely ignorant of the existence of dirigible aircraft. The time has now come for the amalgamation of these different branches—for unity of direction and control over all sections of this great Service. Under present conditions that cannot be accomplished by the present Board. It is a Board, it is true; but it is not a governing Board in the sense that the Board of Admiralty is a governing Board. It is more like a committee or a conference. Indeed, apart from its President, it consists almost entirely of delegates from other Departments—from the Army, the Navy, and the Munitions Department. I do not think myself that these men can be quite free agents, because they must feel some responsibility towards the Department that has nominated them, and they must know all the time that they are nominated members and not senators, and that after a certain time they must revert to their original services. Their counsel mast be weakened because their responsibility is divided. Moreover, on all broad questions of policy, so far as I can learn, the Air Board's powers are very slender indeed; but very great progress has been achieved on the technical side, and there have been great developments, I do not say that they are greater than the developments in certain phases of naval progress, but the developments undoubtedly are notable, and in their ultimate effects upon the world will be very much more far-reaching.

Aircraft can no longer be regarded as a sub-department of the Admiralty or of the War Office. The air is one. It is a unity, far more than the sea is, and a hundred times more than the land is; and the conditions of fighting in the air are similar, even though the airman be attached to the naval or to the military side of the Air Service. A man may be trained to fly over the land and to alight in a field, or he may be trained to fly in a seaplane and to rest upon the waters of the sea, but the element is identical and his problems of observation or scouting or bombing or of photography, and so forth, are in themselves essentially similar. That is the great reason why the amalgamation of training and control has at this stage become so advisable. Moreover, your Lordships should remember that it is impossible for our Army to conduct a campaign without the assistance of the Navy, and I do not suppose there has ever been a naval war in which we have been engaged without the Army giving its assistance; but it is quite conceivable that without the help either of the Army or of the Navy a whole campaign could be conducted by aircraft. For these reasons the Government has presented this Bill. It creates an Air Council, an Air Staff, and an Air Force. It makes a distinct Service, which, although closely and indeed intimately connected with the Navy and with the Army, will have its own ideals and its own personality. It will be governed and controlled in a manner specially devised to develop its great and incalculable resources.

I would now ask your Lordships to allow me to turn very briefly to the terms of the Bill which embody this proposal. The Bill is short. It consists of a dozen operative clauses, with one prodigious schedule. I would draw your Lordships' special attention to Clause 3, which transfers members of the Naval and Military Forces to the Air Force; to Clause 8, which establishes the Air Council; and to Clause 12, which applies the Army Discipline Act to the Air Force. Clauses 1 and 2 are according to common form in establishing a new Force. Clause 3 has been the subject of some controversy. It states that any officer or man now serving with either branch of the Air Service may be transferred to the duly constituted Air Force; and, in addition to that, it says that either the Army or the Navy authorities may give that transfer their approval. It has been said that instead of the word "may," repeated twice, the word "shall" should be inserted. That has been the subject of very careful consideration. Both the Army and the Navy feel that they owe obligations to officers and men who have joined the, Army or the Navy respectively, and that as these men will be leaving the Army and the Navy it is essential that they should be given the right to object if they wish to remain in other branches of Army or Naval life. Personally, I do not myself see the smallest danger in the word "may" instead of the word "shall" standing in the clause It shows how anxious, and indeed determined, the present Air Board is fully and effectively to co-operate with and to act in harmony with the Army and the Navy. Sub-clauses (3) and (4) are important, as they preserve to officers and men all accrued pensions and financial rights. Clause, 1 maintains for officers certain rights and privileges which I confess I did not know they possessed, amongst them being liberty to have a servant without having to pay a licence or tax in respect of him. Clauses 6 and 7 are normal to these Military Acts.

Clause 8 establishes an Air Council. A Secretary of State is to be the head of this new Council, and the Secretary of State, it appears, is appointed under Prerogative and not by Statute. He will hold a position analogous to the Secretary of State for War or the First Lord of the Admiralty, and rank as a Secretary of State. The constitution under Clause 8 is left very vague indeed. There is no specific definition, and no statement as to the numbers who are to compose the new Air Council. I imagine that the reason for this is that at the outset it is not considered wise to present a cut-and-dried scheme, and that it would be imprudent to tie one's hands by inserting in the new Statute a number of Regulations which might ultimately re quite amendment. The desire is clearly to proceed with caution, and to build up the constitution of the new Air Council in the light of experience as it presents itself. The rest of Clause 8 is formal. Clauses 9 and 10 are in the common form. Clause 11 allows the head of the new Air Council to sit in the House of Commons, which he would be prevented from doing owing to the Government of India Act, 1858, which limits the number of Secretaries of State entitled to sit in that House.

Clause 12 is important. It is a discipline clause. Briefly speaking, it applies to the new Air Force the Discipline Acts which control the Army. A large number of consequential Amendments in the Army Act are therefore necessary. If your Lordships will look at the Schedule of this Bill, which covers twelve or fifteen pages, you will see the nature of the great bulk of these Amendments. I will read from the first half-dozen lines of the first Schedule—

For "military or naval forces" there shall be substituted "naval, military, or air forces."

After "Secretary of War" there shall be inserted "or the Air Council," as the case may be.

And again—

After "regiment" there shall be inserted "or unit."

After "naval" there shall be inserted "air force."

For "land forces" there shall be substituted "land and air forces."

Ninety-nine per cent. of these Amendments are of that purely consequential character, and neither modify the Army Act in its relation to the ordinary soldier nor Army discipline in relation to the ordinary airman.

There are, however, certain Amendments of substance about which those responsible for the Air Force are anxious, notably those relating to certain new offences such as the loss of aircraft or tampering with air signals. It is necessary to have certain specific definitions of aircraft. Otherwise the discipline of the Army and of the Air Force remains identical with what it was before, excepting those small particulars to which I have referred. Should any of your Lordships care to examine in detail these technical and consequential Amendments, the Army Act has been reprinted and is in the Library at your Lordships' disposal. It shows clearly by interlineations and underlining what Amendments have been made. Subsection (2) of Clause 12 makes the Air Force an annual Force just as the Army is an annual Force. Subsection (3) is automatic. Subsection (4) is a very harassing subsection to read, but I believe it is necessary in order to ensure that the Army Act shall be a legible and comprehensible document. Clauses 13, 14, and 15 are conventional clauses. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.

My Lords, I desire to express in a few words my wholehearted support of this Bill, the broad principles of which have been so clearly, if briefly, explained by the noble Earl who has just spoken. This Bill is the outcome of much anxious thought and preparation. If the Air Forces are to remain—which God forbid—as units only of the two great fighting Services, then the proposed legislation is not necessary. But if your Lordships agree with me in realising that an independent Air Force is needed and that one must be formed forthwith with full powers, complete organisation, and equal in rank with the Navy and the Army, then the Bill before the House will receive your Lordships' full approval.

For the past three months numerous Committees—I believe there were thirteen of them—Committees consisting of experts in their various departments, have been constantly meeting and thinking out the many and varied problems connected with the creation and the establishment, administration, and discipline of an Air Force, and the setting up of an Air Council. The results of their extensive labours are embodied in a Memorandum which defined clearly the whole scheme and the scope of the proposed Act. It is intended that the transfer to the new Force of the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps will be gradually effected, and I do not anticipate that, due, care being taken, it is possible for any disorganisation to occur during such transition period.

Your Lordships will be glad to know that the creation of the new Air Ministry will not affect the Executive Command as at present exercised by Sir David Beatty and Sir Douglas Haig over the Flying Forces attached to the Grand Fleet and the Expeditionary Force respectively. The difference, and the only difference, will be exclusively one of administration. Whereas hitherto the Flying Services have been administered by two Departments—the Admiralty and the War Office—and equipped with their aircraft under a complicated system by which no less than four Departments are involved (namely, the Admiralty, the War Office, the Ministry of Munitions, and the Air Board), in future the, Flying Services will be administered by a single Department, the Air Ministry, and will be equipped by the Ministry of Munitions on the requisition of the Air Ministry. The representatives of the Ministry of Munitions, the Controller of Aeronautical Supplies, and the Controller of Petrol Engines, are members of the present Board, and it is hoped that they will be advisory and consultative members of the new Air Council.

The possibilities of the Air Force do not need to be, enlarged upon, but I should like to say that, with my intimate business connection of thirty years with our great Ally, the United States of America, and with an acquaintance with her commercial and industrial possibilities—I have acquired and taken away from my year's labour at the Air Board the firm conviction that, with the passing of this Bill, we shall be more than able to fulfil our best expectations for ourselves and those of our great Ally for us.

My Lords, I rise to say a few words about a Bill which raises questions of immense general importance and interest. It is to me, and I am sure it is to your Lordships, a great satisfaction that the noble Viscount who has just sat down, and who has rendered great service to the country in connection with the development of the Air Service, should have given this Bill not only his blessing but an exposition which shows that his own mind is in its provisions. Both he and the noble Earl who introduced the Bill have explained its substance, and the substance of the Bill I take to be this—the creation of an Air Force as much an independent Force as either the Army or the Navy, a self-contained Force, a Force which is to be governed by a Secretary of State and a Council just as the Army is governed to-day by a Secretary of State and a Council, but a Force which is to be administered—I take the word from the noble Lord—by that body, and commanded by the. Executive Commands of the Admiralty and the Army respectively. I think the proposal to establish an Air Force of this kind a necessary one.

We discussed the question a good while ago before the Air Force had reached anything like its present development, and then some of us, including myself, pointed out the difficulties which we thought would arise in the constitution of a separate Force, and, as I will point out in a moment, those difficulties have by no means disappeared. The enormous development of the Air Forces in this war, and the immense importance which they will probably possess in the future, make it essential that we should recognise the fact that it is not possible for the Army and the Navy to undertake the task of adding to their burdens the work of administering and organising a Force like this. Therefore I entirely agree with the principle of the Bill.

Then we come to what is, to my mind, the crucial point in the Bill—Clause 8, which sets up the Council. What is the Council? Everything depends on it. The noble Viscount (Lord Cowdray) said the work of the Council would be administrative. Yes: but between administration and command there are infinite gradations. The case is even more difficult than the case of the Army and Navy. It is worth recording what the history of the inner relations between the Army and Navy have been. Of the two Staffs, the Naval Staff was hardly developed as rapidly as the Military General Staff, but the two Staffs, such as they were, were scarcely in systematic consultation at all up to the year 1911. It is quite true that before that time the two Staffs met on the Committee of Imperial Defence and thought out great strategical principles, but they were principles of wide application and did not touch the details which I have in my mind in connection with this Bill. It was not until 1911, when Mr. Churchill created a War Staff in the Navy—for which we owe him a great deal—that systematic consultation and co-operation between two expert bodies concerned only with "thinking," as distinct from administration, came into existence. That went on intermittently until the war broke out. For a short period it appeared to me that this systematic and scientific co-operation would go into obscurity. It revived again in October 1911. When Sir Archibald Murray became Chief of the General Staff—an officer to whom we owe far more than the public realise for the development and preparation of things which have been done in the war—he and the Chief of the Admiralty Naval Staff were in the closest consultation upon the details of operations of amphibious war. I use the word "details" because it is a word which has been too much left out of account in our past history of this matter. It has been common for the sailors to work out their own policy and keep it secret, and for the soldiers to work out their policy. That is absolutely impossible, as this war has shown. You cannot send troops to make a landing on a coast without the closest co-operation of the General Staffs, and the General Staff of the Army are agreed that this obvious and simple truth is one that we have only come to realise fully and completely, in practice, in the course of this war.

It has been absolutely essential, in the amphibious warfare in which the Army and Navy have had to take part, that their relations should be close and intimate with regard to strategy and tactics—the Staffs of the two Services thinking out problems beforehand—and that they should work in the closest co-operation. In the new Air Force which the Bill proposes to establish we have a case where, if this was true in the case of the Army and Navy, it-is still truer. The Air Force will play a tremendous part in the war. I am not sure that it is going to supersede, as some imagine, the Cavalry. If the news which has reached us this afternoon be true in its details, then the Cavalry is still a potent arm of the Service and a very important one. At any rate, even although the aircraft develop capacities greater than they possess to-day for the important work of scouting, there will still be work, as far as I can judge, for which you will require Cavalry. They must still co-operate in scouting, for, as the aircraft have to go higher and higher in order to avoid antiaircraft guns, their range of observation is less; and for finding out how a village is occupied and defended, where the barbed wire lies on certain ground in front, Cavalry would still be most valuable for work of that kind.

I come now to the larger principle which underlies the necessity for using this new Air Force in the strictest sense co-operatively. There will no doubt be some battles which it will wage by itself, but in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the Air Force will co-operate with the Fleet and with the Army. If that is so, then that co-operation will not be worth anything unless it has been most carefully thought out and studied. If you need that thinking out and study in the case of the relations between the Army and the Navy as regards the planning of operations, you want it far more in connection with this new Force, which is fighting a co-operative battle in a more intimate sense than the two older Forces.

Therefore to my mind the importance of this Bill is not its administration, although that is vital, but how Clause 8 is going to be worked out. What is the Council going to consist of? Of course, the noble Earl was quite right in saying that this was a matter for consideration. The Bill only takes powers, and the Government must not commit itself prematurely. I quite agree with that, and do not reproach him for not having given us more information. I should like to be assured that under Clause 8 the Council will contain elements no less distinctive than those contained in the Army Council and also in the Board of Admiralty. I mean that the distinction between thinking out and planning operations, and their execution, which is vital to success—the distinction between what is called General Staff work and administration—should be as fully borne, in mind in the organisation of this new Force as it is in the Army. Unless that is done there will be infinite confusion and infinite want of co-ordination in the operations of the combined Forces. Unless there is the closest study—and systematic study in peace as well as during war—the now Force will fail to fulfil the role which it must play. When I say this I am not for a moment suggesting that it is not in the mind of the noble Earl himself. I dare say it is, and I am sure that it is a thing which his naval and military advisers will not fail to have thought of. But I also wish to emphasise that, so far as I am concerned, my great anxiety about this new Force is not how it will be organised, not how it will be administered—because I am sure that will be done admirably—but how the Higher Command will be brought into that intimate, and not only intimate but continuous, relation with the Higher Commands of the Army and Navy and of their Staffs which to my mind is essential if this new Air Force is to be a success.

My Lords, I should like to refer briefly to Clause 8 and to its bearing upon Clause 6, and to the effect this change from the Air Board to the Air Council may have upon the construction of aircraft. Clause C states that an Air Force Reserve and an Auxiliary Force may be instituted. It is, therefore, important to know who the officers of the new Air Council are to be, and whether, as I hope will be the case, this change portends a very large increase in the output of aircraft, and that we shall not have a Force that is inferior to any Force in any other country. It seems to me that there is no object in having co-ordination of the Air Forces unless you also bring about co-ordination in the construction of aeroplanes. My experience teaches me that greater co-ordination in that respect is highly desirable in the interest of production. If the Government will study the question of greater co-ordination between themselves and the factories whose business it is to turn out the aircraft, I believe that great advantages would accure to the country. I should like to see a man in the position of go-between the Government and the factories—a man who has had experience of the difficulties that are now being encountered by those who have to manufacture this class of munitions of warfare. One who has had that experience and who knows what the difficulties are would be very useful to the Air Council in bringing about a much greater output of aircraft than we have at present. Every one welcomes the advent of this Bill, and no one more than I do, and I trust that some scheme will result which will bring about a greatly increased output of aircraft, without which the Air Force will be of no use.

My Lords, with your permission I would like to say a few words in support of the Second Reading of the Bill now before your Lordships' House. I am sure that this Bill is one which will commend itself very favourably to the people of this country, and for three reasons especially. First, because it fulfils an ideal which every great organisation must aim at, and that is unity of control; second, because it will do away with overlapping in the construction of aircraft and design for aircraft; and, third, because it puts the Air Service on a level with the other great Services, the Navy and the Army. As everybody admits, supremacy in the air is of the most vital importance at the present moment, and any measure that can bring that about is certain to receive a most warm welcome. The Air Board, first under the presidency of the noble Earl who leads the House (Lord Curzon of Kedleston) and later on under Lord Cowdray, has done a great work, and has really cleared the way for the introduction of the Air Force Bill.

The Bill will also, in my opinion, do away with any small friction that may have arisen between the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps—friction which, in my opinion, has been enormously exaggerated. I have seen a great deal of the wonderful work that has been accomplished since 1914 under the most difficult circumstances. One after another obstacles have been overcome by those pioneers of the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps, who have given of their best in the interests of the Service. All honour to them.

There is one point that I should like to emphasise, and it is one which I know will receive attention under the new Council, and that is the training of pilots. It is most essential that pilots should have a thorough knowledge in map-reading, and that when they are sent out on their perilous trips at night they should know exactly and accurately the way to their objectives. This will obviate, in my opinion, many accidents, and ensure in most cases their safe return. It is very gratifying to know that a specialised Medical Service is to be introduced under the Bill to look after the welfare and well-being of our flying men.

I should like to bear testimony, if I may, to the excellent work that has been done under the Air Board through the Intelligence Department of the Air Service of which I am fortunate to be a humble member. Without a capable Intelligence Staff, flying men would be at a great disadvantage. Intelligence and flying are so closely connected that they are bound together with the most intimate ties. The present high state of efficiency in the Intelligence Department is another proof of the happy relations that exist under the roof of the Hotel Cecil. Knowing, as we do, that the Germans are making almost superhuman efforts to increase the efficiency of their Air Service, and to what a large extent the result of this war will be decided in the air, I beg to offer my congratulations to His Majesty's Government for bringing in the Bill that is now passing through its Second Reading in your Lordships' House.

My Lords, the discussion which has taken place has been, if I may venture to say so, a very useful one. My noble friend the Lord Privy Seal presented the Bill to your Lordships in a speech which was a model of terseness and clearness; and we have also had the advantage, which we have in your Lordships' House on almost any subject that is discussed, of hearing several experts. We have heard the noble Viscount opposite, Lord Cowdray, and my noble and gallant friend who has just sat down, Lord Erskine.

But there is a difficulty in the discussion of this Bill, and that is the great haste with which the Government have found it necessary to push it forward. I do not complain of that haste, because I know-how very urgent this Bill is, and the practice of your Lordships' House has been, since the beginning of the war, to put no obstacle whatever, so far as they can avoid it, in the way of any urgent war measure which may be submitted for consideration. Therefore when the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition last night raised the question whether it was not unduly quick for the Second Reading to be taken to-day, and the noble Earl opposite (Lord Crawford) explained why it was necessary, none of us said a word, and we did not wish in any sense to delay the Bill. But if we assent—as I am sure your Lordships will assent most readily and gladly to the Second Reading of this most urgently important Bill—I hope it will be understood that the general discussion on the subject is not altogether closed, if it shall seem good to any of my noble friends to raise it upon the next stage of the Bill. There are one or two other noble Lords who have not been in a position, owing to the necessary haste with which proceedings have been taken, to take part in the discussion this evening, but there is an opportunity afforded by the forms of our House—namely, on the Motion for going into Committee when the principle of the Bill can be discussed. I hope, therefore, that the Government will not think it presuming upon the forms of the House if we take advantage of that to prolong the discussion upon the next stage of the Bill. As far as the Second Heading is concerned, we are only too delighted that the Government have brought in the Rill, and we earnestly hope that it may be pressed forward to a rapid conclusion.

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord on the Front Opposition Bench (Viscount Haldane), speaking, of course, with a very special knowledge, told your Lordships of the great difficulties of co-ordination between the Services which exist and which will probably be increased by the creation of a third Service. An ordinary layman cannot, of course, claim any of that special knowledge; but I am inclined to think, so far as one's own information and knowledge of what does go on enables one to judge—and I think this view has been shared for a very long time by most of those who are particularly interested in the Air Service—that in all probability the creation of a separate Air Force will tend on the whole to obviate more difficulties than it will create. It is probably this feeling that has led His Majesty's Government to put forward this Bill, and I am not in any sense opposing it; on the contrary, I have been a member of bodies which have for some time urged the passing of a Bill like this.

I should not have intervened at this stage except upon a point which is not really connected with the substance of the Bill itself but which does seem to me rather an important constitutional and technical point, and I should like to call the attention of the noble Earl opposite to it. It arises on Clause 12 as to "Discipline, etc.," which provides that the Army Act, with the, appropriate; and necessary modifications which were indicated by the noble Earl who moved the Second Reading, should apply to the Air Force. And it then goes on in these rather remarkable words—

"… and shall, as so modified, take effect as a separate Act of the present session of Parliament, and may be printed as a separate Act by the printers to His Majesty and intituled 'An Act to provide for the Discipline and Regulation of the Air Force,' and that Act may, subject to any modifications which may from time to time be made therein, be cited as the Air Force Act."

We have had a good deal of legislation by reference in the past; and with my experience in this House I have, of course, read a good many Bills and a good many Acts of Parliament. I do not profess by any moans to have an exhaustive; knowledge of them, but I confess that I can recall no case before in which a Bill by one clause in itself has created an entirely new Act of Parliament, with a separate name, which shall be printed by the King's printers as a separate Act of Parliament, and I should rather like to know how that Act will be quoted, apart from its title. It will be in the reign of George V, but what chapter will it be, and where will it appear in the Statutes? It is apparently intended in this clause; to create a thing which is an entirely new Act of Parliament, and which shall take effect as a separate Act of the present session, although it has not passed the House but has been enacted by a side-wind in a clause of another Bill. I have no doubt that the Government did this purely for reasons of haste and of convenience, and I am sure that nobody would wish to interfere with any haste that was necessary; but I confess I should have thought that a purely disciplinary and formal Act of that kind could have been passed without delay as a separate measure, and that from a constitutional point of view this would have been the better course.

My Lords, the point which has just been raised by the noble Earl will be dealt with by my noble friend Lord Crawford in his reply. I think that the appeal which was addressed to us by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, is entirely reasonable. This Bill has been put upon the Notice Paper at rather short notice. There are several members of your Lordships' House, quite apart from those who have spoken to-day, who are entitled to be heard and who may wish to raise questions of importance, and we shall therefore postpone the Committee stage of the Bill to an early day next week—Tuesday or some other day—so that noble Lords may have an opportunity of considering what they desire to submit to your Lordships' House.

As regards the Bill itself, I should like to say one or two words. The noble Marquess quite justifiably informed your Lordships that in his opinion the Bill is one of the; most urgent and most important. I am glad, therefore, to notice, from the reception that it has met with to-night, that of all the war measures—because this is a war measure—of which I have recollection that have been introduced into this House during the last three years there is none, from the indications we have so far observed, that has been received with greater unanimity by all sections of the House. Personally, I cannot help feeling an almost parental interest in the Bill. As the president of the first Air Board which existed for the best part of a year, between the spring and the winter of 1916, I remember making a speech explaining the constitution and functions of that Board to your Lordships' House. I said on that occasion that there were many, of whom I was one, who would gladly have seen an Air Ministry created at that time. But I remember also saying that the objections to the adoption of that course at that moment were too strong to be overcome. There were certain practical objections to which it is no use to refer now. But, still more, there was the fact that there was no agreement between the important and influential Departments of the Admiralty and the War Office at that date as to the constitution of such a Ministry. But I remember using these words, which as they were brief I may be allowed to quote. I spoke as follows on May 24, 1916—

"I should like to add for myself that I think such an Air Department is destined to come. I see before myself, before many years have passed—it may be even sooner—I paint to myself a dream of a single Service under a single head, under a single roof, with a single organisation. Such a unification I cannot believe to be beyond the administrative genius of our race. But if I am right in that, I would sooner see it come—as in the past few months I have seen military compulsion come—as the result of a concordat between all those who are interested in the matter, as the result of a cordial acceptance of the principle by both Services and both Departments, and with the avowed support of the Secretary of State for War and the First Lord of the Admiralty."

Well, that remark was indeed prophetic, because that is the solution at which we have now arrived, and the fact that we are able to introduce this Bill to-night is due to the fact that that concordat between those two great Departments of State has now been achieved. Now let me say here—because your Lordships' House is one which always likes to render credit where credit is due—that this result has been very largely due to the activities and influence and counsel of a member of our War Cabinet—namely, General Smuts. General Smuts was charged by the War Cabinet with the investigation of this problem some months ago. He has been in constant co-operation and counsel with my noble friend Lord Cowdray, and it is largely due to the advice that he has tendered and to the influence that he has exercised that we have been able to arrive at the result which is placed before your Lordships this afternoon.

One other personal point. My noble friend Lord Cowdray, the severance of whose connection with the Air Board, I—and I am certain I speak for the whole of your Lordships—most deeply regret, has himself played a part in the development of the Air Service and of the Air Board during the past year which your Lordships should recognise, but which his modesty prevented him from admitting to-night. He brought to the Air Board great administrative experience, very great powers of organisation, and a tact which has never failed him in most difficult circumstances: and the fact that this Air Ministry has now been developed by general consent and without friction is very largely due to Lord Cowdray's personal influence in the matter.

Upon the point raised by Lord Tenterden—namely, the increased production of aircraft—I wish I could, in justice to Lord Cowdray and the Board over which he has presided—but I cannot without giving information to the enemy—give the exact figures of the enhanced production of aircraft during the past few months under the auspices of my noble friend. These are matters upon which we rightly and wisely observe silence. But it is sufficient to say that the expansion has been remarkable, I might almost say prodigious. We can cast our eyes into the future, if the war lasts, as it seems likely to last, well into next year, and the figures of production that we shall be able to contemplate at that time are such as to give us feelings of very assured confidence, not merely as to our advantage, but as to our overwhelming superiority, when that time comes.

The noble Viscount, Lord Cowdray, correctly remarked that this was the first occasion on which real unification of the various Departments and Forces that are concerned has been seriously taken in hand. There are the two Forces, the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service, between whom there has never been, so far as I know, jealousy, but between whom there has necessarily been administrative division. Then there have been the four Departments to which my noble friend referred—the Admiralty, the War Office, the Ministry of Munitions, and the Air Board itself. Everybody knows that, in the earlier stages, between those various Departments there was not merely competition but at times friction, and in any circumstances very considerable waste of effort. It is an invaluable thing to have got rid of that by this Bill; and if for no other reason than the cessation of Departmental friction, this Bill would be a most valuable thing in itself.

Certain questions have very properly been addressed to the Government as to the method by which the co-operation to which we look forward is to be attained in the future. It does not appear in the Bill, but it is a fact that a Committee presided over by General Smuts, and upon which sit the Secretary of State for War, the First Lord of the Admiralty—and the President of the new Air Council will sit with them—has been appointed solely and exclusively to conduct this work of co-operation and co-ordination between the Departments. That is, I think, a very valuable and important link in the chain, and meets the questions which were addressed to us from some quarters.

The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane, asked about the composition of the Council, and expressed a desire that that department of activity in which he always takes the warmest interest—a thinking department—should be adequately represented. I believe that we shall be able to give him further information on that point at the Committee stage, when we can say something about the composition of the Council which, I hope, will give him satisfaction on the point to which he referred. The noble and learned Viscount made another observation which was perfectly true. I will give in substance what he said. He told us that this is not only a war measure but a post-war measure too. Nothing could be more true than that remark. Astonished as we all have been by the scale and magnitude of the development of air service in the war, it ought by no means to be supposed that that development will cease with the war. On the contrary, every one of us knows that there are futures which lie before the Air Service—into which I need not enter to-night—which will render it not only for years to come, but permanently, a necessary part of what I may call our Imperial organisation. This Air Ministry is not wanted for France, Flanders, Salonika, or the East only, but it is required as a part of the material and mechanical resources of the country.

I think one noble Lord remarked that the Bill is a somewhat tentative measure, and I have seen it described in the Press as a skeleton upon which the flesh and blood will have to be reared as time goes on. I think that this was wise and necessary in the circumstances of the case. The fact is that this Bill can only be worked successfully—as I believe it will be—by good will and by co-operation. Lord Cowdray justly remarked just now that there is no intention to make any change, certainly not any substantial change, in the control of the Forces in the field. They will remain, as they are now, with the naval and military commanders under whom they are placed. But it is obvious that the scheme can be satisfactorily worked out only by a good deal of give and take, by a good deal of consultation and co-operation; and if your Lordships will look at subsection (4) of Clause 8, to which reference has more than once been made, you will see these words—

His Majesty may by Order in Council transfer from the Admiralty, or from the Army Council or the Secretary of State for the War Department, to the Air Council or the President of the Air Council such property, rights, and liabilities of the Admiralty or Army Council or Secretary of State as may be agreed between the Air Council and the Admiralty or the Army Council, as the case may be.

"As may be agreed." That is the secret and pivot of the whole matter. And it is in the fact that the old disagreements have come to an end and that these Departments are now united in a common effort towards the development of this Service that the great hopes which many of us rest on the passage of this Bill in the main depend.

My Lords, there is one point only on which a specific question was put to me. The noble Earl opposite (Lord Russell) is correct in saying that it is somewhat of a novelty that one Act of Parliament should carry in its bosom a second Act of Parliament. But that is the case in this instance. I think the reason for it, though, perhaps, it is not strictly constitutional, is practical and good. In the first place, I would ask the noble Earl to remember that this is done for a period of four or five months only. When the Army Act is introduced next year this temporary Act lapses, and the Army Act of the future will year by year carry forward for the Air Force what the Army Act of to-day does for the Army. If this course had not been adopted it would have been necessary for us to introduce into Parliament a Bill of 200 clauses—that is, the existing Army Act. We should have had to ask your Lordships to insert into that Bill anything between 2,000 and 2,500 Amendments—I do not know the exact number, but it is at any rate something stupendous. We should have had to reprint the Bill, and so on—a long and cumbrous process which can be adequately overcome by this reference in Clause 12, and by the First and Second Schedules in the Bill. It is, I agree, irregular; but I fancy that on the whole this system is probably more convenient to Parliament, especially as Parliament may rest assured that it in no way prejudices the future.

As to the course of this Bill, I understand that various members of your Lordships' House desire to speak on the general question on going into Committee, and therefore I must abandon any hope of getting an early Royal Assent to the measure. Subject to your Lordships' consent, I suggest that the Committee stage should be taken on Tuesday next.

My Lords, I do not know whether my noble friend the Leader of the House will allow me to make an appeal to him not to persist with the Second Reading of this Bill this evening. I am aware that such an appeal is quite irregular, but, speaking always subject to your Lordships' permission, I make it for the following reasons. The Bill was brought from the Commons but yesterday, and it was only in the hands of the House this morning. Indeed it was not in my hands quite as early as this morning. It is not a Bill of urgency, such as the one with which we have just been dealing; and if it is passed and receives the Royal Assent before the end of this month I understand that that will be quite sufficient. There are certain points that require to be raised upon it which we really have not yet had time to consider, but which I am sure the Government would like to know of before they deal with the Bill. I must not discuss the measure, but I may say generally that it is pre-eminently a Bill of legislation by reference, and it was only with some difficulty that at a late hour this afternoon and with the assistance of an eminent lawyer we ascertained what the Bill really means. Therefore I think there is a rather strong case for not taking the Second Reading to-night. I am aware that I ought to have said this when the Bill was read a first time last evening, but although I was present I did not catch the name of the Bill or I would have made my observations then, when they would have been strictly regular. I make this appeal to the noble Earl, and I am sure he will find that the House generally takes the same view.

I should like to know whether your Lordships generally do take that view, because I am prepared to conform to the sense of the House. It is, of course, a somewhat irregular proceeding, when a Bill has been put down for Second Reading and a Minister rises to move it, that a request should be made to postpone it; but I wish now, as on all previous occasions, to do what the general sense of the House requires. I might point out that, although it is true that the Bill has been in the hands of noble Lords only for a short time, it received no alteration in the House of Commons. It was not amended in Committee there at all. The Bill comes to your Lordships in the exact form in which it was first put before the House of Commons, ten days or a fortnight or more ago; and therefore it was in the power of noble Lords, if they so chose, to acquaint themselves not only with the general character but also with the exact phraseology of the Bill as now placed before them.

I own that I was a little alarmed when my noble friend opposite informed me that he had been consulting a legal friend of great authority, because it seemed to forecast a discussion which I might have difficulty in meeting. The question is whether the points which my noble friend desires to bring forward are points which it is essential to raise on the Second Reading, or whether they should more properly be raised in Committee. If he tells me that they are Second Reading points, I will, of course, if it is the sense of the House, defer the Second Reading. We are bound by certain limitations of time. The last Act passed for extending the life of Parliament terminates on the 30th of the present month, in the middle of next week, and therefore it is essential that this Bill should be passed into law before that date. Of course, if my noble friend presses the point about the Second Reading, I shall take the Second Reading to-morrow, and the Committee on Tuesday next—the same day as we take the Committee stage of the Air Force Bill; but I must take it by then in order to pass the Bill into law within the requisite space of time. Perhaps the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition will give me some guidance, and tell me whether it would be better to postpone the Second Reading or to allow the points to be raised on the Committee stage.

In reply to the courteous invitation of the noble Earl, I may say that I have no knowledge of the points which my noble friend behind me and his friends desire to raise. Personally I have no opposition to offer to the Bill as it stands, and therefore I am not in a position to give advice from more knowledge than the noble Earl himself possesses. But as I happen to have sat in the same place as ha now occupies, I will say that in his position I think I should have agreed to the suggestion of my noble friend behind me, since it is quite clear that if the noble Earl will be willing to take the Second Reading to-morrow there is no reason why the Bill should not pass through the whole of the remaining stages on Tuesday next, which would give reasonable time for it to receive the Royal Assent before the date fixed by Statute. I trust, therefore, that the noble Earl will agree to my noble friend's request.

My Lords, might I venture to say a word? I do not think it is reasonable to hold out any idea that there will be much discussion on this Bill with a view to opposing it. But the point which I would like to make is this, that those who have duties elsewhere than in London find it very difficult to make sure of attending the House unless they know a little more definitely than we do now on what date a Bill is coming on. I confess that when I saw in the newspapers that this Bill had been read a first time last night it never occurred to me that it could be taken for Second Reading as rapidly as to-day. I thought that as a matter of course the Second Reading would be deferred until Thursday, and the remaining stages until next week. I knew, of course, that the Bill would require to be passed before the end of the month, because that is common knowledge. However, I rose more to say this, that I hope those responsible for bringing business before the House will give a little more consideration to the necessities of this House as compared with the necessities of the other House than is often done. I think that our convenience is quite unduly sacrificed, very often by the perhaps necessary difficulties of another place, but in my opinion we suffer much more than we ought to do upon that ground.

I recognise the force of the appeal which the noble Lord has, not for the first time, addressed to me, and I should be the last to argue that your Lordships should not have due notice of the presentation to this House of any important Bill. In putting this Bill down for to-day, I confess it had not occurred to me that there would be either serious criticism or opposition. It was taken in another place almost as a Bill upon which every one was agreed, and it was in that expectation that I put it down for to-day. But inasmuch as I find there is a general desire for a rather longer interval, I will take the Second Reading to-morrow, and ask your Lordships' to agree to the Committee Stage being put down for Tuesday next.

I am much obliged to the noble Earl.