My Lords, before I pay a well deserved and no doubt inadequate tribute to the last Clerk of the Parliaments, perhaps I may say on behalf of the whole House how very pleased indeed we are to see the noble Lord, Lord Richard, in his place. From his demeanour, I hope I can conclude that he has made a full recovery.

On 31st October last year I had the sad duty of reading to your Lordships the letter in which Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth announced his intention of retiring from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments with effect from 4th January this year. On that occasion I said that, in accordance with the customs of your Lordships' House, your Lordships would in due course have an opportunity to pay tribute to Sir Michael. To that end I now rise to move:

That this House has received with sincere regret the announcement of the retirement of Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth, KCB, from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with which the said Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth executed the important duties of his office.

On the two most recent occasions when the Leader of the House has moved such a Motion, he has done so within a few weeks of appointment to his own office.

My predecessors have thus been able to plead diffidence in honouring the wisdom and experience of the retiring Clerk of the Parliaments. I can claim no such indulgence but I am nevertheless sure that the whole House will agree with me that it is indeed a heavy responsibility to lead your Lordships' House in tributes to such a figure as Sir Michael. I feel this most acutely because so many of your Lordships have known Sir Michael and benefited from his experience for much longer than I have. I am sure that others of your Lordships, from all sides of the House, will accordingly wish to say a few brief words today.

We should recall that Sir Michael's service to your Lordships' House has been a long and extremely distinguished one. He entered the service of your Lordships' House as long ago as 1960. As with many of our Clerks, he came from one of our great universities. Unlike more recent arrivals however, he preceded his time in academia with a period of National Service as a midshipman in the Royal Navy. He has, I think I am right in saying, never forgotten that period of his life and it has, I have particularly noticed, formed a more than useful bond with others around your Lordships' House with similar experience.

After serving five years in the various posts allotted to junior Clerks, Sir Michael was seconded to be Private Secretary to the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip. I know from experience that Leaders of your Lordships' House are fortunate indeed to be served in their private offices by some of the ablest of an able group of Clerks. But I am sure that, for instance, the noble Earl, Lord Longford, will agree with me that he was perhaps more than usually fortunate to have had Sir Michael as a private secretary and I am certain that Lord Shackleton would have echoed those sentiments had he still been with us today.

In 1967 Sir Michael was assigned to what might be described as a "special operations" unit. He was seconded to be the joint secretary to the inter-party conference on Lords reform. His diligence and ability, for which your Lordships' Motion rightly commends him today, were perhaps nowhere more evident than in the vast amounts of detailed work that he undertook on Lords reform at that time. It may not have escaped your Lordships' attention that reform is once again a topic on the minds of at least some of your Lordships. I am sure that those studying these questions will benefit from a careful scrutiny of the work done by Sir Michael all those years ago.

In the early 1970s Sir Michael was intimately involved in the work that your Lordships undertook to establish a means of scrutiny for European Community legislation. It is perhaps the greatest tribute that we can pay to his work that we can observe that that work continues with undiminished vigour today. Other member states of the European Union and, indeed, dare I say it, another place, are only now beginning to attempt to match the work that your Lordships have been quietly doing for over 20 years. I do believe that this House will recognise that this continuing scrutiny will serve as perhaps one of the more lasting memorials to Sir Michael's efforts on behalf of the whole of this House.

In more recent years, during his period as Clerk of the Parliaments since 1991, Sir Michael has continued to devote himself tirelessly to improving the efficiency and effectiveness of your Lordships' House. It was under his leadership that the Ibbs reforms to financial administration were carried through, with relatively little pain and with the result of both substantial savings and an expansion of services without an increase of expenditure in real terms, a virtuous circle which has not always been imitated by those who have benefited from government expenditure in other directions.

Sir Michael also saw the establishment of the Jellicoe Committee which has led to so many valuable developments in the Committee work of your Lordships' House. He has also advised informal procedural working groups designed to shorten the hours sat by your Lordships. We are all grateful to Sir Michael for what he has done to square the circle of improved scrutiny within shorter sitting hours. That was something which some of us thought was an impossible task, but which he showed was not nearly as impossible as we thought.

Sir Michael's record of service in your Lordships' House is an impressive one. He can look back with pride on the many improvements and achievements he has caused, or at least encouraged and facilitated. He will be remembered as a most amiable and generous man: his staff parties in Oxfordshire were, I understand, great occasions. He will be warmly remembered by his many friends here and around the Commonwealth.

On a more personal note, I know that Sir Michael has a clear view of the dignity and purpose of this House. It informed all aspects of his work and it informed in particular the way in which he introduced new Members to this place. I should like to record my own appreciation of the way in which he introduced me to your Lordships' ways and for the frank but tactful approach with which he has helped me during the past five years, and the past two-and-a-half in particular. He has an enjoyment of life that is infectious and which has much enlivened our exchanges. It enabled me to anticipate my meetings with him with a heightened sense of pleasure.

I am not convinced that Sir Michael does in fact intend to retire in the traditional sense of that word: for example, I know that he has agreed to continue with some valuable work on the Parliament volume of Halsbury's Laws. It would thus perhaps be a little premature for me to wish him a happy retirement just yet. But as he leaves the service of your Lordships' House, I know your Lordships will join with me to wish Sir Michael and Lady Wheeler-Booth, and their family, many happy and peaceful years together, and to record our appreciation of the great service he has rendered to our House, which we will remember with pride and affection.

Moved to resolve, That this House has received with sincere regret the announcement of the retirement of Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth, KCB, from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with which the said Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth executed the important duties of his office.—(Viscount Cranborne).

My Lords, I begin by thanking the Leader of the House for his kind words. I come back not inspirited or totally reinvigorated, but recovered, and hope that I shall be able to play a modest part in the workings of this House in the next three or four months.

It gives me great pleasure on behalf of the Opposition to second the Motion moved so ably by the Leader of the House this afternoon. He started by telling us that on two or three previous occasions it had been moved by a Leader of the House within weeks of that Leader attaining office. He will understand me totally if I express the hope that on this occasion it has been moved by a Leader of the House within weeks of his leaving office.

To turn to the subject matter of the Motion itself, Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth was a remarkable man and a remarkable servant of this House. The Leader of the House set out his career. It was long and it was distinguished. He played a large part—I echo what the Leader said—in relation to the setting up of the European Communities Scrutiny Committee. That committee, as those of us who have been in Brussels at any time will know, has a reputation which is frankly enviable and unmatched by any House and any other Parliament in the European Communities. Its reports were read with care, certainly within the Commission. I remember being grilled at one of the meetings of the sub-committees. I can only say that it was a cross-examination which I remember, if not for the comfort it gave me, certainly for the vigour with which it was pursued. That stands very much as a monument to Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth.

In relation to Sir Michael's work in the House, it is fair to say that everything he did, he did in order to try to improve the functioning of this House and to establish better ways in which we could function properly. I think particularly of his attempts to take more business off the Floor of the House and into Committee. That was a subject close to his heart and one which we followed with great interest.

The qualities of the man spoke for themselves. He was scrupulously fair and non-partisan. I speak as an Opposition Member in this House, but I think I can say that the advice we received from Sir Michael throughout my time in the job was clear, undoubtedly objective, fair and non-partisan. He was an open-minded man—he is an open-minded man: we should not treat this as if it is an obituary, because it is not. He was colourful and, as some of your Lordships will know, he was sometimes delightfully outspoken. He was kind and considerate. Nothing was too much trouble for him.

He was an innovator as far as this House was concerned and his roots were in precedent and in practice. He was very careful to build upon what the House had achieved in the past and tried to make sure that the ways in which the House was now moving were consonant with what had gone before and would be consonant with what was to come after. He was a great believer in this House and he was a great believer—he is a great believer—in the need for co-operation between the two Houses.

I hope that we have not seen the last of Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth. I am sure that he is not retiring in the conventional sense of the word. I hope that in some form or another it will be possible to maintain his connection with the House. I echo what the Leader of the House said about conveying our good wishes to him and his family in their temporary and partial retirement.

My Lords, I have seen many Clerks of the House of Commons come and go but I have seen the full term of only one Clerk of the Parliaments in your Lordships' House. The contrast which is imprinted on my mind is that, particularly in my younger days in the other place, Clerks always seemed to be immensely venerable figures, bowed down with Victorian tradition and precedent, while Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth always seemed to me to be a figure of youth, gaiety and flair. That is so partly, I suppose, for the very good reason that he is probably the first in the series to have actually been a good deal younger than me. Thinking that Clerks of the Parliaments have come to look young is a serious advance on thinking that policemen look young, but it also owes a good deal to the fact that he has essentially been a buoyant as well as an efficient and devoted servant of your Lordships' House. I think he will go down as a Clerk of the Parliaments whose style will not quickly or easily be forgotten. I hope he will have a long and productive retirement.

It has been suggested that a combination of our modern demography and our early retirement habits means that there is a lot to look forward to at the end of a first career. If Sir Michael were a Member of your Lordships' House, he would be regarded as distinctly on the junior side. We wish him very well in the future, just as we welcome his successor to his new responsibilities.

My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, recounts in his memoirs that one day a former Cabinet colleague came to him in the Chair and said, "Mr. Speaker, may I have a word with you please after this debate as an old friend?", to which the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, replied, "Mr. Speaker has no old friends". It is one of the glories of parliamentary traditions that, like the Speaker in the other place, the Clerks in both Houses of Parliament are totally impartial, giving guidance and advice to Members, irrespective of party political allegiance. We on these Benches do not have splendid and reliable Whips to ensure that we do not stray from the paths of righteousness. I suspect that from time to time all 309 of us have sought the advice of Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth as individuals. We hold him in the highest regard and affection and we will always be grateful to him for his wisdom, kindness and courtesy to us.

It was Edmund Burke who once said darkly of a Clerk of his day, "There are persons in this world whose whole soul is a previous question and whose whole life is an adjournment". It is to the new Clerk of the Parliaments, Mr. Michael Davies, who we welcome very warmly, that we shall in future be bringing our previous questions. For Sir Michael, after 36 years of dedicated service to Parliament, it is the adjournment. In my experience he was the most assiduous of the Clerks in keeping in touch with the other place. More than many in this House, I am able to say how absolutely essential and important it is that Parliament should operate as a whole. We on these Benches wish him and Lady Wheeler-Booth a long and a very, very happy retirement and we shall all look upon him henceforth as a very, very good friend.

My Lords, because diversity is one of the glories or perhaps features of the Church of England, when a Bishop speaks, one cannot always be sure that what he says will be endorsed by all his brother Bishops. However, there is a unity deeper than that diversity which surfaces when it really matters. I know that what I say now most genuinely expresses the feelings of all my brother Prelates in this House. I am their sole representative today because they are assembled in Liverpool this week to conduct essential ecclesiastical business from which one of their number must absent himself to be on duty in this place. I have to say that my offer to spend the week here instead of in Liverpool was not a painful sacrifice.

The turnover of Bishops in this House is regular and even during the time since he became Clerk of the Parliaments Sir Michael has supervised the introduction of two Archbishops and 15 diocesan Bishops. My own experience is mirrored by others. Entering this place for the first time is for all the world like entering a new school or university—an ancient institution, awesome and bewildering, and unless one is supremely self-confident, which few of us are, the cause of much anxiety about geography, forms and customs. It is difficult to describe the relief at one's first interview with Sir Michael; the new boy reassured by a kind housemaster and gently introduced into the ways of this strange and wonderful institution. Like the best of housemasters or tutors, he always made one feel welcome to return to him for advice. I think the wise Bishops did just that because Sir Michael has a perceptive and profound understanding of the Church of England and especially, of course, a long and varied experience of Bishops in this place.

I am personally deeply grateful to Sir Michael for his wise guidance, encouragement and friendship during the past six years. I speak for all my brethren in wishing him fulfilment and every blessing in the future when no doubt he will continue to be, as he has been here, a good servant not only of the nation but of the Church.

My Lords, the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, in his fine tribute, echoed by other speakers, mentioned the fact that Sir Michael was Private Secretary to myself and to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. Therefore, it seems right and proper that I should say just a few words.

We are told in the Scriptures—the previous speaker is a better authority on this than I am—that no man can serve two masters. The present—and perhaps future— Leader of the House will be aware that he has to serve two masters; namely, the interests of this House and those of the nation. Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth served both sublimely. In my case, and I believe it is also true today, he had to serve two masters: the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip. He had to deal with my old, gentle, self-effacing self and the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, who is a very efficient person, with superhuman energy and drive. He had to reconcile our requirements and he did that sublimely.

I am sure that everyone in the House will agree with me that Sir Michael is a man of extraordinary skill and integrity. He has an inscrutable smile which leaves one uncertain as to what is really going on in his mind. But whatever he was thinking, he was doing what was right and proper. If the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, were here I am sure that he would join me and everyone else in paying tribute to him.

We are also told in the Scriptures by the founder of our religion that he said to his disciples, "I shall call you henceforth not only servants but friends". Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth was a great public servant. He has made innumerable friends in this House.

My Lords, following all the top brass, may I very timidly add a few words. I have benefited enormously from Michael Wheeler-Booth's interest and advice in a number of capacities, going back to years ago when I was a humble member of the Council of Europe. I have almost forgotten what that body was, but he was involved with it at the time; and I was a junior member of the inter-party conference on Lords' reform, where he played so notable a part, as he did also when I was Leader of your Lordships' House.

I would like to say how much in particular I owe to Michael Wheeler-Booth for his extraordinary wisdom in terms of knowledge of people and institutions when, for some unknown reason, I was chairman of a Select Committee on the committee work of your Lordships' House. It was quite wrongly nicknamed by my noble friend the Leader of the House the "Jellicoe Committee".

In those and in many other ways I benefited enormously from the advice, wisdom and experience of Michael Wheeler-Booth. His advice was willingly given and always with great humour. It was enormous fun to be involved with him.

I join with those who have already spoken in wishing Michael and his wife a very happy retirement. Perhaps I may also say how glad I am to welcome his successor, Michael Davies, who was once, and will always remain in my mind, a very esteemed secretary of mine.

My Lords, I would like to add a few words to those spoken by my noble friend the Leader of the House and others, including the Leader of the Opposition, about Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth's work in the European section of the deliberations of your Lordships' House. I was one of the members of the ad hoc committee in 1972 which decided to establish the Select Committee on the European Communities. It was very much Sir Michael's guidance which enabled us to reach what I hope was a right decision that there should be a Select Committee continuing year after year to look at this very important matter in your Lordships' debates.

It was Lord Maybray-King who chaired that committee. His inheritance remains with us as the years pass. Later, after he was promoted, Sir Michael kept a close eye on that committee from a vantage point above. I believe that the work done by the committee is unsurpassed by any House in any Parliament of the 15 member states. I hope that those of us who served in the European Parliament and who are now in your Lordships' House have happy memories of that committee and of the red books which arrived month after month. They were seen not only by members of the European Parliament but, dare I say it, by Commissioners not only from the United Kingdom but who spoke tongues other than our own. There was even talk at one time in the Commission of translating those documents into many different European languages. No doubt there would have been a certain amount of criticism of the expense if that had have been done. That was a measure of the value placed on your Lordships' reports, to which Sir Michael contributed so much. I join other noble Lords in wishing him and his family happiness in his retirement.

My Lords, as your Lordships know, it fell to Sir Michael as Clerk of the Parliaments to guide me in my Woolsack duties over the time when he occupied that office. To the extent to which I followed that guidance I got it right; to the extent to which I neglected to follow it I got it wrong. The guidance was always delivered with that wisdom and fine humour of which so many of your Lordships have already spoken.

I regard Sir Michael and his wife as great friends. I join with those noble Lords who have expressed for them the very best of happiness, good health and prosperity in the years ahead.

On Question, Resolution agreed to nemine dissentiente; it was ordered that the Lord Chancellor do communicate this resolution to the said Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth, KCB.

Then, the then Leader of the House having informed the House on 31st October last that Her Majesty had, by Letters Patent, appointed John Michael Davies, Esquire, to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, in the place of Sir Michael Addison John Wheeler-Booth, KCB, the Letters Patent were read. The said John Michael Davies, Esquire, made the prescribed declaration (which declaration is set down in the Roll among the oaths of the great officers) in terms as follows:

"I, John Michael Davies, do declare that I will be true and faithful and troth I will bear to Our Sovereign Lady the Queen and to Her Heirs and Successors. I will nothing know that shall be prejudicial to Her Highness Her Crown Estate and Dignity Royal, but that I will resist it to my power and with all speed I will advertise Her Grace thereof, or at the least some of Her Counsel in such wise as the same may come to Her knowledge. I will also well and truly serve Her Highness in the Office of Clerk of Her Parliaments making true Entries and Records of the things done and passed in the same. I will keep secret all such matters as shall be treated in Her said Parliaments and not disclose the same before they shall be published, but to such as it ought to be disclosed unto, and generally I will well and truly do and execute all things belonging to me to be done appertaining to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments."

After which he took his seat at the Table.

My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

In accordance with the Statement made by me on 31st October last, I have appointed Mr. Paul David Grenville Hayter to be Clerk Assistant in place of Mr. John Michael Davies, appointed Clerk of the Parliaments. I therefore beg to move.

Moved, That this House do approve the appointment by the Lord Chancellor, pursuant to the Clerk of the Parliaments Act 1824, of Paul David Grenville Hayter, Esquire, to be Clerk Assistant of the Parliaments in place of John Michael Davies, Esquire, appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

In accordance with the Statement made by me on 31st October last, I have appointed Mr. Michael Graham Pownall to be Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in place of Mr. Paul David Grenville Hayter, appointed Clerk Assistant. I therefore beg to move.

Moved, That this House do approve the appointment by the Lord Chancellor, pursuant to the Clerk of the Parliaments Act 1824, of Michael Graham Pownall, Esquire, as Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees of the House in place of Paul David Grenville Hayter, Esquire, appointed Clerk Assistant.— (The Lord Chancellor.)

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, about 1 million refugees have returned from Zaire and Tanzania to Rwanda over the past three months. UNHCR reports that there are about 260,000 refugees in Tanzania; more than 500,000 in Zaire; and almost 60,000 in total in Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi. In addition, there are about 250,000 people internally displaced in Zaire and more than 200,000 in Burundi. We support the efforts of regional leaders who are working for an international conference under UN and OAU auspices.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Will she be assured that she has the support of this House in doing everything possible to meet the great humanitarian need in the Great Lakes area? Has the Minister been able to study the report of the UN Commission last month on eastern Zaire, which identified 300,000 refugees, displaced people and Zaireans living in grim conditions? Specifically, what is being done to help those people in their plight? Similarly, what is being done to protect those compulsorily returned from Tanzania, particularly those whose lives are at risk in Burundi where unfortunate and large-scale killings have already taken place?

My Lords, having returned only two days ago, I have not yet had the opportunity to read the UN report. However, from what I know about those in eastern Zaire, I can advise the noble Lord that the non-governmental organisations, supported by governments such as ours, are doing their very best to help. We shall take further action as such action becomes possible. Our ambassador in Kigali is visiting Bujumbura at the moment, as are other representatives who are active in the field in eastern Zaire. We shall be able to take the necessary action when we have their reports.

On the point about compulsory returns from Tanzania and the very sad news that members of the Burundi army killed 124 people in Muyinga on Friday night, there is no doubt that that is a deeply regrettable incident, which the government of Burundi have admitted. They have sent a team to undertake an immediate investigation and have said that those responsible will be dealt with severely. We have no further details at the moment, but the international community and the government of Burundi are determined that there should be no repeat of that sort of behaviour.

My Lords, has the Minister noted the reports that foreign mercenaries have been gathering in Kisangani with a view to attempting to recapture eastern Zaire in collaboration with the Zairean Army? Would the Minister support proposals that the OAU should send a special envoy to Kisangani to make inquiries about the presence of the mercenaries and, if necessary, bring the matter to the attention of the Security Council?

My Lords, we are aware of press reports of mercenary activity in eastern Zaire. Indeed, last week when I was in Angola we received other reports of mercenary activity in other parts of Zaire. We deplore any such activity. We are certainly not aware of any French military intervention, as has been intimated. We have been working closely with the French and our other European partners towards a regional political solution. There is no doubt that the OAU and the UN must work together to make sure that such reports are not true and that those responsible are not allowed to get away with any such activity, if such activity does take place even on a small scale.

My Lords, when is the interdepartmental inquiry into the involvement of a British firm in selling arms to renegade Rwandan forces to take place? I understand that that was supposed to have been reported to both Houses by 19th December.

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord a specific answer; but I shall write to him with the answer which I shall make available to other noble Lords also.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the fundamental need is to have a political settlement in the Great Lakes region as a whole? The noble Baroness has indicated that the Government are determined to support the initiatives of Julius Nyerere, Nelson Mandela and other regional heads of government. What action are the British Government taking to try to build a common approach with the French Government on a solution which can encompass both Francophone and Anglophone countries in the area?

My Lords, the Assistant Under-Secretary for Africa was in Paris shortly before Christmas for talks about those very matters. Other exchanges are also taking place with our French colleagues. However, it is not enough just for British and French diplomats and humanitarian workers to be in agreement; there has to be agreement between all those who may be involved in some way positively— or even negatively—in the events that have taken place in the Great Lakes region. That is why we should welcome the initiative taken by Presidents Moi,

Mandela, Mugabe and Biya. I believe that following the Nairobi summit that will help us to build the sort of peace which may be lasting in that region.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that given the number of refugees who have been returned to Rwanda, that country needs a great deal of additional help with its reconstruction? In particular, does the Minister agree that there is a need for more human rights monitors in that country and a need to rebuild its judiciary? Can the Government give any additional help?

My Lords, more human rights monitors are needed in both Rwanda and Burundi. I took the opportunity of discussing this matter with Judge Goldstone who was much involved in these matters during the Christmas holiday. A number of us are looking at ways in which such measures could be more speedily and more effectively implemented. There is also a need to train people in Rwanda and Burundi to become human rights monitors so that there is that capacity within those nations which then do not always have to look outside for help with such matters.

My Lords, the Minister refers to non-governmental organisations helping in eastern Zaire; but is there not some urgency in ensuring that there is protection afforded to non-governmental organisations and churches that are operating from other countries?

My Lords, I do not believe that currently there is a problem in Rwanda unless there is information that has not yet come to my notice. The government of Rwanda, while suspicious of the actions of a few, are very supportive of the actions of the majority of non-governmental organisations. There are bandits still about in these places. They do not have the civilised discipline that we enjoy in our society. There will always be risks, but they are quite limited compared to some that NGOs take, very bravely, in many other parts of the world, including Angola, to which I referred a few moments ago.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no current plans to extend the student loans scheme to cover top-up fees. We believe that top-up fees are neither necessary nor desirable, particularly in the light of the 1996 Budget settlement; and we regret that those higher education institutions which are considering such fees may be prejudging the outcome of the Dearing inquiry.

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the amount of concern felt by students, academics and others about reports of activities in the university sector? I refer to statements by the LSE about the introduction of top-up fees and statements about a premier division of universities and colleges. I suggest that all of these reflect a drift in the +Government's policy. Assurances need to be given, particularly to young people who plan to go into university education, that they will not take on new unbearable fees. The Minister's action of kicking everything into the long grass of Dearing is not good enough.

My Lords, I do not accept the noble Lord's point. I have made it clear, as have other Ministers, on a number of occasions that I see no need for top-up fees, particularly in the present funding context. I am grateful that the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals has also offered its advice to universities. It has said quite clearly that they ought to defer decisions about any such fees for full-time home undergraduates and to keep open all funding options while the Dealing inquiry is under way. I believe that it would be wrong, as I put it earlier in my original Answer, to prejudge that inquiry.

My Lords, is it not the case that two institutions, the London School of Economics and the University of Birmingham, have gone some way towards introducing a scheme for the academic year 1998-99? Can the Minister inform the House how advanced these proposals are and what discussions those institutions have had with his department?

My Lords, it is for the institutions to make these decisions. It is open to them to make such decisions. The noble Lord is right to refer to those two particular institutions. We have made it clear that, particularly in the light of the current funding arrangements and the extra money that we have been able to secure in the recent Budget settlement, we see absolutely no need for such fees. As I said in answer to the first supplementary, I believe that it would be wrong to go down that route in advance of Dealing. We believe that they are trying to prejudge that inquiry.

My Lords, can the Government advise the House what legal authority universities have for charging top-up fees? Does that legal authority extend to schools charging top-up fees for education in high schools, possibly after the age of 16?

My Lords, schools are another matter, but I do not believe that they would have such authority. However, I shall write to the noble Lord on that matter if I am wrong. The universities have such authority because they are private institutions and can make such decisions as they wish.

My Lords, I declare an interest as a staff member of the London School of Economics. Does the Minister accept that the most important element in deferring decisions until Dealing comes along is the fact that the Dearing Committee will not report until after the election, and that, sadly, both the Government and the main Opposition party wish to kick the matter into touch? Does the Minister accept that any government are unlikely to find extra funds for universities of the kind that we need to maintain the highest quality higher education?

My Lords, we make very large amounts of public money available to higher education in this country. The figure made available to higher education is some £7 billion, which represents about 20 per cent, of all the money that is made available by the taxpayer for education. I believe that that is a very significant amount of money. I do not accept that we have kicked higher education into the long grass, as the noble Lord puts it. Over the past few years we have seen dramatic changes to higher education. Higher education has expanded and numbers have doubled and doubled again. We thought it right that some 20 or 30 years after the previous report into higher education there should be another independent inquiry into the whole shape, size, future and structure of that sector. Obviously, one of the matters that Sir Ron will have to address is funding. Following his report, the Government will look very carefully at the recommendations that he makes.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, 1997 presents an opportunity for a solution to the Cyprus problem on the basis of a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation. A comprehensive settlement must take account of the genuine security concerns of both communities.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is unacceptable for a sovereign state, the Republic of Cyprus, to be threatened militarily by Turkey on the basis of the planned purchase of surface-to-air missiles purely for defensive purposes, particularly at a time when Turkey has an overwhelming military superiority both in Northern Cyprus and even more so 40 miles away on the mainland? Further, does the Minister agree that this threat will prejudice the possibility of a settlement of this very difficult issue? Do the Government have any further initiatives in mind to deal with this latest threat to the settlement process in Cyprus?

My Lords, I believe that when the United Nations Security Council expressed its unanimous concern on 23rd December about the excessive level of military forces and armaments in Cyprus, including the introduction of sophisticated weaponry, it spoke for everyone. The concern about the build-up of weaponry and forces applies to both sides. The decision by the Government of Cyprus to buy Russian-built SAM 10 missiles was very unwelcome. That increases the risks in an already tense region. That risk has also been increased by the Turkish build-up in the north. But none of this must deter us from our efforts to promote a settlement. Indeed, it underlines for all of us why those efforts are so important. Both sides must calm the situation. We are taking as much action as we can to ensure that that is so. Today, the Foreign Secretary has written to Prime Minister Clerides. We will continue to urge the Turkish Government to resist the impulse to make the bellicose statements that they have made in the past and to respond to all of the recent developments with restraint. That must be the only way to get a dialogue going.

My Lords, in these times of extreme tension between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots, would it not be better for the Greek Cypriots' application to the European Union to be postponed until such time as the picture is clearer and they cease to rearm in the alarming way that they have?

My Lords, this is a most difficult matter. The prospect of the accession of Cyprus to the European Union is a new opportunity to make progress towards a settlement. We want to see the whole island join on the basis of bi-zonal, bi-communal federation because accession will benefit both communities. We cannot make a political settlement a precondition for accession because that would give one party an effective veto over the other. On the other hand, I do not believe that accession without a comprehensive political settlement in place will come about. But we must ensure the success of the accession negotiations and work on a settlement for Cyprus at the same time.

My Lords, while everyone can see the advantages to this country and to all third countries in adopting an even-handed stance between the two sides in all conflicts everywhere in the world, is it not rather obvious that the greatest single contribution to the solution of the Cyprus problem at the moment would be for the Turkish Government to heed the repeated declarations by the Security Council and remove their army of occupation so that the peaceful settlement between the communities which we all desire could begin?

My Lords, no. It is not as simple as the noble Lord implies. The most sensible decision would be for both sides to take measures which reduced rather than increased tension. There is no doubt about that. A significant reduction in Turkish troops in Northern Cyprus would improve the climate for negotiations. The only sensible direction is for the number of arms and troops on both sides to go down. That is what we have to work for.

My Lords, while I express some surprise that the deployment of a purely defensive system can be regarded as provocative, has the Minister any information to judge upon what threat assessment the Greek Cypriots thought it necessary to deploy sophisticated missile systems such as the SAM 10?

My Lords, I regret that I cannot tell the noble Lord upon what threat assessment their decision was based. There is a great deal of threat making going on at the margins. Although it will take some 18 months before there is a delivery of these SAM 10 missiles, we should in no way underestimate the seriousness of what is going on.

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say to what extent, if any, Russian intervention has exacerbated the situation? Generally, is there some hidden Russian policy in this area?

My Lords, my noble friend highlights a suspicion held, I know, by many, but we have no evidence to support what he suggests. We know that these SAM 10 missiles are available. The fact that they came from Russia was no surprise, but we have no evidence at present that it is part of Russian policy.

My Lords, perhaps I may strongly endorse what the Minister said about the need for restraint on both sides in what is turning out to be a very unfortunate military escalation in Cyprus. Will the Minister say what is the timetable now for trying to bring the two sides together in talks to negotiate the kind of long-term settlement to which she referred earlier in her response?

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her support for the way in which we are going about this matter. The Security Council has of course been unanimous in calling for a cessation of the arms build-up in Cyprus. We have had a determined and active role. We are working closely with others in the international community to support the work that the UN is doing. The Foreign Secretary was in Cyprus in December. While there, he identified 10 elements as a basis for a solution, but it will ultimately be up to both sides to make compromises if there is to be a successful negotiation. The security concerns of both sides will be a key element in any comprehensive settlement. At present we have to go on working. Our own special envoy to Cyprus will be back there shortly. We have others working on the matter. I understand that the UN special representative, Professor Han Sung Ju, is going there shortly on behalf of the new Secretary-General.

My Lords, given our understanding of what the Minister has said, does she accept that for the past 23 or 24 years there has been almost continuous provocation on the part of an intransigent Turkish Government? Does she further accept that the Turks have ignored scores of UN regulations and resolutions and statements from Her Majesty's Government, who act as a guarantor? What confidence can we have that they will take any more notice of what she has said this afternoon, when we know that the population of the occupied territory has increased from 104,000 to something over 200,000 during the same period, and for one reason only: they are trying to establish that that occupied portion will become a permanent factor? We all know that. Everyone knows that. Why do the Government not refer that to the UN for serious discussion?

My Lords, I believe that the whole House knows that both sides in this dispute are capable of ignoring the UN, the EU and practically anyone else who tries to bring about a settlement of this long running dispute. I do not expect the Turkish Cypriots or the Greek Cypriots to take any particular notice of what I say this afternoon, but they should be taking a great deal more notice of what the people of the island are saying: that is, that they want a resolution to this situation. Whatever the rights and wrongs on both sides—it will only be through patient negotiation at the UN and bilateral envoys that we can make a change. We regard the situation with the utmost seriousness, and we shall be doing all that we can to ensure that recent events are not allowed to escalate further.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, all visitors to prisons are liable to be asked to prove their identity. All visitors to Category A prisons whether official or social must show proof of identity. For Category B or C prisons all official visitors must show proof of identity, and for family and friends visiting prisoners that is also increasingly required.

In order to improve consistency the security manual is being revised and will make it clear that all visitors to all closed prisons must provide adequate identification.

My Lords, does the Minister realise that those who visit prisons will think that hers is the most astounding Answer given during the course of these past few years? I have visited prisons for over half a century. I have visited twice a week. I visited three times last week. Is the Minister aware that one is not always asked to prove one's identity? I can speak from personal experience only. Is she aware that one is sometimes asked to do so? One may be asked to produce a bus pass with a picture of oneself—beautiful or otherwise—on it. That may or may not be sufficient. In some cases, yes; in some cases no. In one case the governor of a prison that I had visited for many years had to be called in before I was allowed into the prison. Perhaps I may suggest to the Minister, with the greatest possible respect, that were she to make a few inquiries she would find that she has been talking absolute nonsense this afternoon.

My Lords, it will not be the first time that the noble Earl has accused me of talking nonsense across the Dispatch Box. This is a serious point. Identifying people entering prisons is a serious matter. From time to time not everyone will recognise the noble Earl, although he has an impressive and long record of visiting prisons. Not all prison officers will know him by sight, and therefore they will ask for identification. One of the issues is that each governor is allowed local discretion as to how that is to be done in practice. Therefore sometimes people will be asked for identification. Sometimes it will be a bus pass that will be looked at, and sometimes they will need corroborative evidence; in other words, another form of identification will have to be provided as well. Perhaps I may refer the noble Earl to my first reply. I said that it is a requirement at Category A prisons. It is also carried out, although not in every case, at other closed prisons. The intention is that it should be a requirement at all closed prisons.

My Lords, as far as I can understand it, the Minister has advised the House that it will be up to the local governor's discretion as to what is required to prove identity. It is surely likely to cause problems for people visiting prisons if they do not know beforehand what is likely to be required. Surely it would make much more sense were there to be a centralised national list of the type of things that could be used to prove one's identity when visiting prisons.

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about consistency. We believe that there is a case for consistency and that is why the manual is being revised. We believe that there is probably too much discretion at governor level. It is not always the case that an individual visiting a prison understands precisely what is required of him. We believe, first, that people should be made aware of what is required of them when they visit a prison in order that they can be better prepared and, secondly, that there is a case for more consistency.

My Lords, the Minister's indication that the manual is to be revised is good news. However, would it not be sensible during that revision to ensure that, for example, probation officers and members of boards of prisoners are provided with identification which will be instantly acceptable and recognised? Furthermore, although my noble friend's Question is about proof of identity, does the Minister accept the concern in particular of probation officers about the extraordinary degree of searching of official visitors such as probation officers and prison visitors?

My Lords, the case for probation officers is not that they should have some form of identification—they are expected to have that when they visit prisons—but that they should be exempt from the normal searches of people entering prisons. There are two particular reasons for such searches. The first is to prevent illicit substances and perhaps weapons from entering prisons. It is no good us wringing our hands and saying that drugs and even weapons get into our prisons without ensuring that all visitors, whether professional or not, are subject to searches. The second is that we need to offer protection to such people, particularly probation officers, who might be intimidated and have pressure put upon them to take in illicit substances. If there were a known category of people who are exempt from such searches it is possible that prisoners will exploit that situation. It is as much for their protection as anything else that they should be subject to searches, which is the subject of their complaints to the Prison Service.

My Lords, would the Minister think that I was mischievous if I were to suggest that the noble Earl might sometimes find difficulty in obtaining admission to prisons not because they have not recognised him but because they have?

My Lords, I believe that it would be diplomatic of me not to comment on that.

My Lords, when will it be necessary to shackle the noble Earl when he visits prisons, since it has been reported that a prisoner died in shackles?

My Lords, I shall ignore the first part of that question. The second part relates to a serious issue which is being investigated. It is the subject of an inquiry and it is, of course, the subject of another Question.

My Lords—

Order! Time!

My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to the lieutenancies in Great Britain. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (The Lord Chancellor.)

My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate the Nurses, Midwives and Health Visitors Act 1979 and the enactments amending it. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the Geneva Conventions Act 1957 to enable criminal proceedings to be taken in the United Kingdom for breach of Article 3 of the conventions. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (Lord Avebury.)

On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That, pursuant to Private Business Standing Order 69, Miss Fiona Philippa Tudor be appointed an Examiner of Petitions for Private Bills in place of Mr. Brendan Patrick Keith.—(The Chairman of Committees.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.

Moved, That the order of commitment be discharged.—(The Viscount of Falkland.)

moved Amendment No. 1:

After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—

MARINE ENVIRONMENTAL HIGH RISK AREAS

(".—(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make such provision as appropriate in relation to—

(a) the identification of marine environmental high risk areas in the territorial seas and pollution zone of the United Kingdom; and

(b) the introduction of necessary measures to safeguard

(i) maritime safety, and

(ii) the environment of marine environmental high risk areas from pollution by matter from ships, offshore installations or submarine pipelines.

whilst respecting rights of transit passage in international straits and freedom of navigation.

(2) In making the regulations and subsequent identification of marine environmental high risk areas, the Secretary of State shall inform the International Maritime Organisation of—

(a) the identity of such sites;

(b) the significance of such sites for recognised ecological, sociological or scientific reasons and the vulnerability to damage by shipping activities; and

(c) the necessary measures to safeguard safety and the environment.

(3) In making and applying any regulations under subsection (1), the Secretary of State shall publish by placing on a public register—

(a) the identity and boundaries of sites designated as marine environmental high risk areas;

(b) the ecological, scientific, environmental or sociological features of any marine environmental high risk area;

(c) the vulnerability of any marine environmental high risk area to pollution from shipping; and

(d) the measures taken to minimise the risk of harm to features defined in paragraph (b).

(4) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State maintaining a register under this section—

(a) to secure that the register is available, at all reasonable times, for inspection by the public free of charge;

(b) to afford members of the public facilities for obtaining copies of the documents kept in the register, on the payment of reasonable charges;

(c) to supply members of the public with copies of the documents kept in the register, on payment of a reasonable charge for copying, not more than two months following receipt of written request for such documents; and

(d) to ensure that all documents arising under subsection (3)(a) to (d) are placed on the register within two weeks of their being brought into existence.

(5) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to make regulations under subsection (1) above within two years of the entering into force of this Act.").

My Lords, I too join with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, in thanking the Minister for his consideration in advising us on progress from time to time during the Recess and for his willingness to listen.

With regard to this amendment, in Committee the Minister said:

"We are not delaying consideration of MEHRAs until such time as EC proposals are clearer. We are already considering, together with the statutory environmental advisers and other interested groups, the development of possible criteria for the establishment of MEHRAs.'— [Official Report, 25/11/96; col. CWH6.]

That seems to show that it is possible to proceed with those measures without necessarily waiting for international agreement.

Obviously, the matter must eventually go to the IMO for identification and endorsement in particularly sensitive sea areas, but as a matter of urgency the UK must identify MEHRAs and introduce measures to safeguard their future. I have pleasure in supporting the amendment.

My Lords, I thank the two noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment for their kind words relating to the handling of this Bill. As has been said on many occasions, not least on Second Reading and again in Committee, the Bill has received widespread support around the House and, indeed, outside it. That has enabled us to take forward our considerations in a very constructive manner indeed.

The amendment proposes to give powers to the Secretary of State to designate marine environmental high risk areas—MEHRAs. In the course of my remarks I hope that I shall give considerable support to the thinking behind the aims of the amendment although I have some specific difficulties with it. They are much the same as those to which I alluded in Committee but perhaps for the convenience of the House, I should give the reasons why I am not able to accept this amendment.

There are three principal reasons why the Government cannot support this amendment. First, we already have powers to implement the definition of MEHRAs which was proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, in his excellent report of which we have heard a great deal. Secondly, this amendment, which appears to go beyond the proposal made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, is partly inconsistent with international law. That is a point which the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, made and perhaps I may touch on that later in my remarks. Thirdly, it is premature as work on new measures to protect environmentally sensitive areas is being carried forward by the International Maritime Organisation and the European Commission.

The Government have considerable sympathy with the principle behind the noble and learned Lord's proposal for MEHRAs. In the Government's response to his report, we accepted that there are areas of the UK coast where mariners need to operate with extreme care and vigilance for the sake of the marine environment. MEHRAs are one mechanism which could be used to bring these areas to the attention of masters and crew.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, proposed that in the first instance MEHRAs should be protected by giving masters non-statutory guidance about their existence. That can be achieved without legislation. If that non-statutory approach did not lead to a change in behaviour, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, recommended that consideration should be given to a number of different routeing measures. Each of these measures can be implemented using existing powers, although the agreement at the International Maritime Organisation may be needed for specific mandatory measures. I believe that that is really the key to the issue which the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, highlighted in his remarks. If a MEHRA were simply to advise mariners there would be no need to refer to the IMO. However, as well as a mandatory routeing measure, it may be necessary to achieve agreement if the restriction applied as a condition to entry into a particular port. However, any restriction of right of innocent passage in territorial waters or in adjacent high seas must be adopted by the IMO.

The IMO also endorsed the voluntary routeing measures for laden oil tankers through the Fair Isle channel, which were agreed with the Chamber of Shipping following the "Braer" incident. Radar surveys show that, with the IMO endorsement, there is a high degree of compliance with these voluntary routeing measures.

I must emphasise that progress is being made on MEHRAs. We are currently taking action to make use of the powers that are available to us. In consultation with the Department of the Environment and the Joint Nature Conservancy Councils, we are developing criteria for the designation of environmentally sensitive areas around the UK coast. We are also developing the Seaway Code which will give important information to mariners. This was another proposal made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson. The Seaway Code could include information relating to MEHRAs.

The definition of a MEHRA in the noble Lord's amendment does appear to go further than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, recommended. It allows a wide discretion for measures which may be taken to protect an area. We already have some powers to protect specific areas; for example by tightening the regulations on what can be discharged or, in some circumstances, banning certain discharges altogether.

We are, for instance, seeking international agreement to have the seas around the UK declared a special area for the purposes of discharges of oil from ships. That would effectively ban all oil discharges from all but the smallest of ships. Should that proposal be accepted by the IMO, we already have legislative power to implement it.

In my introduction I said that elements of the proposal were inconsistent with international law. The amendment would give wide powers to take measures within the territorial sea and the United Kingdom's pollution zone. However, under the law of the sea, measures may only be taken in the pollution zone which are consistent with existing international law or which have been agreed by the International Maritime Organisation. It would not be sufficient simply to inform the IMO, as envisaged by the amendment.

I also said that the amendment was premature. There is growing international awareness on the need to protect individual sea areas. The IMO is developing a range of measures to protect sensitive areas. It already has a designation of particularly sensitive sea areas, or PSSAs. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, was concerned about the number of acronyms around the subject; and, indeed, there is another for him to deal with. The European Commission has undertaken to develop a similar concept called marine environmentally sensitive areas, or MESAs, to which I believe the noble Lord also referred. In his report, the noble and learned Lord highlighted the confusion that would be caused if too many different areas were identified. Clearly, given the international nature of shipping and ship routeing, any measures that we introduce should be consistent with the other work being undertaken internationally. We must also guard against taking steps which may be quickly overtaken by other measures taken either by the IMO or in Europe.

To summarise, we already have considerable powers to provide protection to environmentally sensitive areas. Those powers are being used, and will continue to be used, to safeguard our coastline. I should stress that we are developing the concept of MEHRAs, which can be implemented within our existing powers. Where we do not have powers, we are constrained by international law on what can be done unilaterally. We are taking full part in international debate on measures which could be introduced. Until those measures are developed, further legislative provisions would, I suggest, be premature.

I seek the indulgence of the House for having given a somewhat long and detailed explanation of our policy with regard to MEHRAs. However, I believe it most important that the matter should be put into context. For that reason, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, the Minister has no cause to apologise to the House for the lengthy explanation that he has given; indeed, he has provided us with a good deal of useful information. We support the progress that has been made thus far. However, I am a little troubled about the delay in identifying the environmental criteria. When we debated the matter on the last occasion, I believe that the Minister said that agreement on those criteria was still some way off. With the leave of the House, perhaps he could reflect on that point before he concludes. Can he tell us how far from agreement the Government are as regards the environmental criteria? What stage have the present consultations reached in that respect? In other words, are they near to fruition; if not, when is that point likely to be reached?

I turn now to my understanding of the identification of MEHRAs. The Minister was absolutely right to refer to the PSSAs—the identification of particularly sensitive sea areas—where the IMO agreed the relevant criteria as long ago as 1991. They were needed for recognised ecological, sociological or scientific reasons and because such sites were very vulnerable to maritime activities. But under the IMO definition, such criteria can also be used by national administrations to identify sensitive areas within their territorial waters. I believe that the Minister accedes to that point, but he is also saying that a voluntary approach should be applied initially. I am not against that. However, I should like to know what sort of period the Minister would regard as an appropriate testing time to show the efficacy of a voluntary system?

We know that accidents at sea last year were particularly serious. Consequently, I do not want to be in a position of blaming anyone—whether it be this Minister, a Labour Minister or, indeed, myself—for a situation which may occur because we have not accelerated the need to give consideration to such issues. However, I concede that the Minister is probably right at this point in saying that it would be better to try out a voluntary system. Subject only to the point that I raised regarding the consultation process, I propose in due course to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to thank the noble Lord for the approach that he has taken to his amendment. I believe that we are at one as regards the need, first, to have proper information available to masters and, secondly, to ensure that those areas about which we are particularly concerned are followed through properly in that respect. That was the reason why we decided to have the comprehensive radar surveys. We wanted to see how well the voluntary measures which are in place at present were being observed. I am happy to say that they have been observed rather more diligently than perhaps was at first thought.

I turn now to the timing. Although it is an on-going matter, I believe that it is one of some urgency. It is important for government to undertake their consultations quickly. I understand that meetings will be taking place within the next few weeks between officials from my department and from other government departments, together with representatives of outside interested bodies. Therefore, there is progress. I hope that in a very few months we shall see more progress.

Indeed, if there is more progress to report, I shall of course be happy to come back to the House and inform your Lordships accordingly.

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 3, line 35, leave out ("In").

My Lords, once again I thank the Minister for his explanation of the Government's amendments and for his comments on amendments that I and my noble friend have tabled. The debate gives us the opportunity not only to consider the amendments but also to reflect on the interim report to which the Minister has already referred. Many of the issues involved in the "Sea Empress" incident have entered the public domain, but perhaps not always in altogether praiseworthy circumstances.

There has been an extensive programme on the BBC on this matter. The programme sought to articulate certain anxieties regarding the system that is deployed by the Government at the present time. Other agencies of the media have also dwelt at some length on these matters. Therefore there must be considerable public concern about the situation. I do not propose to adopt those criticisms because I believe we should await the findings of the final report. However, I propose to ask the Minister certain questions that have been posed. I shall not reach any conclusions as that would be wrong for two reasons. First, these are leaked reports and the final report may not comply with the criticisms raised. We do not know. Secondly, where people or organisations have been criticised it is right that the Minister should have an opportunity to consult with those bodies to give them an opportunity to offer any rebuttal of the criticisms. That is done in the course of all forms of inquiry; and I believe that there is no reason for us to depart from it on this occasion. However, for the reasons that I have already adduced, it is important that we should proceed with the publication of the report at the earliest possible opportunity to dispel some of the criticisms made and/or to ensure that necessary action is taken at the earliest opportunity.

In a letter to me on 19th December, the Minister said:

"We are consulting interested parties about the interesting proposals that Lord Donaldson and the MAIB have made regarding the widening of the Secretary of State's intervention powers. If, following this consultation exercise, the Government considers that amendments to the Bill are appropriate, these will be brought forward in the New Year."

A consultation paper was offered. Have we reached the final stage of the consultations? Are any further amendments likely to be introduced in another place? The Minister indicates negatively. I was not quite sure of the position in the light of that comment. I compliment the Government on undertaking that exercise. I believe that it was appropriate that there should be as full consultation as possible. Although the period was short—the consultation document went out in, I think, early December; only a few weeks were given for parties to respond—there was a sense of urgency on the part of those consultees and the Government have now come forward with their amendments to the Bill.

First, I wish to deal with some of the statements made in the leaked report. I wish to emphasise this. I do not adopt the criticisms in referring to this matter.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his constructive and responsible attitude and the remarks he made at the beginning of his intervention on the subject. However, when I respond it is unlikely that I shall be able to answer specific points if they relate to parts of the document that were issued in confidence to those named parties affected. As the statement by the chief inspector said, to do so would be to breach natural justice. I know that the noble Lord will not refer to specific parties in the remarks that he will make. However, we are at present in the middle of an investigation of all the issues. It is clearly in everyone's interest for the investigation to be completed and the report issued as soon as possible. I join with the noble Lord wholeheartedly on that. However, I believe that we should constrain our discussions in particular as regards what is supposed to have been said in a leaked report which forms part of an ongoing investigation.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for those observations. I hope that I shall not cause any embarrassment by the questions that I pose. But I start with what was a grave reflection on an individual where action was taken, not by the Government but by the Milford Haven port authority. While the investigation was proceeding, it suspended the pilot who was on board the vessel in what I believe was a wholly unforgivable and premature way. Subsequently, the pilot was reinstated following a further investigation. That is not the way to ensure good relations which are essential between pilots and the port authorities.

I say now as I said earlier that I am the president of the United Kingdom Pilots (Marine) Association. It is a responsible body; I could not be the president otherwise. The fact is that it was a reckless thing to do and I hope that it will not be repeated by any other harbour authorities in any situation which might arise in the future. I say no more about it. However, I hope the Minister will recognise that in the light of what occurred that is a justifiable criticism and does not reflect in any way adversely upon the Government.

There will be government reaction or reaction from others about some of the other matters raised. One matter requires the Government to offer some response now. The Minister has been in touch with NUMAST, the officers' union, about the question of tugs. What the Minister said in effect—he will correct me if I misrepresent the position in any way whatsoever—is that one has to have some regard to the cost involved in using tugs. The question is: how many tugs do you use? How many do you have available? I do not raise now the question whether it would have been appropriate to have more tugs available, and whether in any future situation we shall have to apply to a Mongolian restaurant for translation purposes as was done here with a Chinese takeaway. However, if the Minister says that there are cost implications, as obviously there are, will he explain to the House the cost of using the present tugs available, and what the cost might be if that situation were accelerated? It is presumably a fairly simple calculation, although in these situations things are not always as simple as that. Also, does the Minister agree that in the past year tugs chartered from companies were deployed on 80 occasions?

It is important to relate the cost also to the cost of not having the tugs available. It is always a difficult factor to measure; but concerning environmental matters we are required to recognise not only the costs of preventing damage to the environment but also the costs of not doing so.

There is an immediate problem. Whether the leaked report is right or wrong is important and worrying, and does not brook delay. The problem relates to the value of the navigational charts which exist in that and other areas. It is said that the navigational charts around the mouth of the harbour were outdated and inadequate. Without commenting on whether that is a justifiable charge, I wish to hear from the Minister whether action is being taken to ensure that navigational charts in sensitive areas in the first place are brought up to date. Perhaps he will comment not on the specifics of the Milford Haven situation but on the action that the Government are taking in a more general way. Information relating to tides is very important. I hope that the Government will be able to assure the House that they are doing their best to ensure that around our coasts accurate information relating to tides is provided.

I understand the Minister's situation. I have suffered myself from what has been called "salvage by committee". It is very difficult because so many interests are involved. One has the sense that if one does not consult while such situations are going on, people with a pecuniary or other interest will feel that they have not been treated fairly. On the other hand, it is very important to ensure that the swiftest possible and most direct action and responsibility is taken when such situations arise. I do not cast blame on the Government even if they are ultimately found to be responsible in some way or another in the final report. I know the pressures that are on the Minister. I know that mistakes can be made by any government. These are largely regulatory matters. Therefore, except where there has been an action taken deliberately (I do not say at this stage that it happened in this case) to take avoiding action or action which might mitigate a disaster on a political basis, I do not criticise the Government. I want to make that very clear.

I repeat: I believe that wider lessons can be learnt than will be available from consideration of the reports that will be made available to us. I have said on many occasions, having consulted the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, that I believe it would have been right—I still believe that it may be right, and it is not too late—to reconvene the committee to see whether any wider lessons can be learnt. I put that point to the Minister once again. I am sorry that I have taken so long, but it is important to comment on some of these matters.

I now turn to the amendments. Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 seek to define the circumstances that trigger intervention. They are comparable in seeking to define an accident. They are not exactly similar but the objects are clearly the same. I suggest that Amendment No. 8 adds certain important components; namely,

"the loss or impairment of propulsion, navigational facilities or power on board a ship".

The Minister said that that is outside the definition that has been internationally approved. Certainly existing provisions were inadequate in terms of a dangerous situation such as that of the "Braer" where a vessel was incapacitated but not yet damaged.

The Minister said that the Government take their position from Article 221 of the UNCLOS intervention convention of 1969. He thereby recognises the inadequacy of the existing law. That is why his amendments are before the House today. However, while that definition would probably encompass a systems failure on board, there remain difficulties in the requirement of an imminent threat of material damage to the vessel or to cargo. But when damage is imminent, may it not be too late to intervene? Therefore we suggest expanding the definition of "occurrence" to extend, as in Amendment No. 8, to,

"the loss or impairment of propulsion, navigational facilities or power on board a ship";

and we would remove the word "imminent". I understand that the Minister feels that he has gone so far as he can under international law. However, I submit that in domestic legislation we are not obliged to follow in precisely the same terms the form of a convention. I further submit that the requirement regarding the word "imminent" is necessary. It drastically reduces the possibility of taking effective action if there is no possibility of that until the last possible moment.

We await the Minister's response to this matter. It is possible that guidance will be issued following the lines of our amendment. I suggest that the Minister might take that idea on board. However, if there is any doubt and he is reluctant to do so, I suggest that our amendment is needed to ensure greater effectiveness and safety of the intervention that is proposed. The suggestions we have made provide in this respect a more secure way of dealing with the matter than that proposed by the Minister.

The Minister dealt with the other amendments. We sought in Amendment No. 4 to clarify the status of the Marine Pollution Control Unit's national contingency plan by giving it formal recognition in the Act. The Minister does not want to do so at this stage.

My Lords, indeed I do. Another amendment in my name whose number I need to check effectively does the same thing.

My Lords, I am obliged to the Minister.

The question that we raise in relation to pilots was effectively dealt with in the Minister's remarks. I am grateful to him for following up the debates that we had in Committee.

This has been a useful debate. The Minister might like to comment on just one other point. Are the Government proposing to remove winter-only tug charterers at Dover, Stornoway and Falmouth? If so, why? In what way would that be an advantage? If the Minister says that there are no such plans, I shall be delighted. However, that was reported in the press and that is the reason I pursue the matter.

My Lords, I had intended to remain silent during this debate because I did not take part in previous debates on the Bill. However, the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, raised a point that I should like to support.

I accept the Minister's comment about the inappropriateness of a long discussion of a leaked report, particularly if we are to have a chance to discuss the report once it is published. I should like a reassurance that tide tables and navigational charts are kept continuously under review.

My Lords, I join in the welcome that was given to government Amendment No. 7. It is essential that the power should extend to harbour authorities and harbourmasters, and also to pilots. Let me make it clear that, although I suggested that it should extend to cargo owners, I am not in the least bit troubled by the fact that that has not been done—not least because in most pollution cases, the pollutant is oil. Most oil is carried for the oil majors, who in their own interests in terms of public relations and other more financial matters will co-operate to the full. I just thought that in terms of comprehensiveness it would be no bad idea. However, as I say, I am not in the least troubled by that omission.

I am a little troubled by the general remarks made by the Minister that it did not follow that intervention powers would be used in every case—I agree that they would not necessarily be used in every case—and that it was the intention to continue with co-operation. I wholly support that. A large number of people are involved in these incidents each of whom has expertise, and co-operation is essential. However, the bottom line is that the Secretary of State, through his official on the spot, is responsible whether he intervenes or whether he does not intervene. He is either responsible because he did not intervene or responsible because he did do so. But what is absolutely clear is that that official cannot stand by while arguments are taking up valuable time. He cannot stand by and concur in the form of not exercising intervention powers in a plan with which he is not in total agreement. If he is not in total agreement, he simply has to intervene. There are no two ways about it.

At one stage I gently enquired, in a quite different case, whether intervention powers were contemplated and I was told that they were contemplated. But I gained the impression, which may be wrong, that the exercise of intervention powers was thought to involve some formality—some drafting or drawing up of documents. I hope that is not the correct view. I see that the Minister agrees that that is not the correct view and I am delighted.

There have been various references to keeping charts and tide tables up to date. Obviously that is important. But there is a limit to the extent to which charts can be corrected. The shingle bank which is not far from where I live is, I am told by the Southampton Port Authority, permanently on the move. One cannot produce charts every six months. Tide tables are at best a very crude guide to how much water there will be under the keel at any particular time, since the depth of water depends on atmospheric considerations of one kind or another.

The plain answer surely is that it is desirable that major changes should be recorded on charts but subject to that it is for masters of ships to allow a wide margin before they try to plot a course and if they want up-to-date and precise information to communicate with the harbour authority, who will undoubtedly have tide gauges and other means of giving him more precise information.

Apart from that, the only very minor point that I want to mention—I am sure that there is very good reason for it—concerns the definition of "pilot". I had always understood that traditionally the master had the conduct of his vessel—he was responsible for it—and the pilot was his adviser. It may very well be that this is taken from a succession of pilotry definitions, in which case I have nothing further to say about it. Indeed, I have nothing further to say about it anyway because we must get this Bill through and no doubt everyone will know what is meant by a "pilot", even if this is not a very good description.

My Lords, perhaps I may just ask the Minister another question. I am sorry but I forgot to put the point. In the review that is to be undertaken of the national contingency plan, will the national wildlife contingency plan which is currently in preparation by country conservation agencies in association with the MCPU be taken into account?

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate which has ranged widely, as do the amendments.

I turn to the general points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, first with regard to the "Sea Empress". He was absolutely true to his word and did not engage in anything that would be inappropriate, given the draft nature of the report about which we have heard. I shall repeat again: clearly, it is in everyone's interests that the investigation is completed and the report issued as soon as possible. But what I find particularly distressing about the events over the weekend and the reportage of a leaked document is not only that the document was leaked and issued to those affected in confidence but also that it is in draft and this is very much part of the investigative procedure. The MAIB interviews witnesses, takes a great deal of information into account and then puts its report to those who are affected directly for comment. That is the opportunity quite rightly for those who are affected to make representations. If the MAIB does not accept them, it is for them to submit alternative texts.

I draw your Lordships' attention to a statement issued by the chief inspector on Friday. It reads:

"Under the statutory procedures covering marine accidents I am required to consult those whose reputations may be adversely affected by my report into a marine accident. This procedure is essential to ensure fairness and to allow those involved to comment on the accuracy of my findings. Until I have had an opportunity to consider any comments I receive from the individuals concerned my report cannot be finalised. I stand ready to consider modifying my findings in the light of any new points which may be put to me by the individuals I have consulted.

"The draft report on the SEA EMPRESS has been circulated in confidence under these procedures. I very much regret that this confidence has not been honoured. It is unfair to those involved with the incident to assume that any material said to come from the draft will, in fact, represent the eventual findings and recommendations of my final report".

I do not want to go on about this matter unduly but that puts the picture in its completeness.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, made a number of points more generally. The first was about the issue of tugs and a letter which I wrote to NUMAST. I do not have a copy of the letter in front of me but I know the correspondence to which he refers. We are in agreement in saying that tugs were an expensive outlay and any such very considerable expense has to be justified. It has to be weighed up against potential benefits and other options of how money can be spent on combating marine pollution and saving lives. That, essentially, is what I have always maintained and what I said in my correspondence with NUMAST.

The noble Lord asked about the cost of the tugs. In round terms—there are contractual details here—the cost is some £3 million per year now for three tugs, bearing in mind that these are for the winter period only. So it is approximately £1 million per tug per winter period. Those are the sums about which we are talking. They are very considerable sums indeed when put against other search and rescue assets.

The noble Lord concluded by asking me whether I had any proposals to remove the tugs. Clearly, when one is spending very considerable amounts of taxpayers' money, one has to be absolutely convinced that they are good value for money and they are achieving their aim. I have nothing at the moment to suggest that that is not the case. Very shortly a technical report will be published detailing what the tugs were tasked to do in their first two trial periods of operation. One has to recall that only three years ago there were no government paid-for tugs of any kind around the coast. To my understanding, this kind of very large salvage tug had never been chartered on a stand-by basis by the Government at all. So this is new territory that we have gone into. We have spent a great deal of money on this and I believe it is right that the lists should be analysed very properly. But I do not think there is anything between the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, and me on that subject. Certainly, he should not read anything into any correspondence with NUMAST which indicates anything other than that. The tugs have been extremely useful and have demonstrated their ability as a valuable asset.

The noble Lord also asked me about wider lessons to be learnt from the "Sea Empress" incident. The priority is now for the MAIB investigation to be completed, for the comments to be taken into account and for the report to be published. There is the environmental investigation as well. I am absolutely with the noble Lord. All the lessons to be learnt must be taken fully into account. Should there appear to be any need to re-examine any of the conclusions put forward by previous statements on maritime policy or indeed by the conclusions of the noble and learned Lord's report, clearly we shall have to look at that, if any of the recommendations from the inquiries into the "Sea Empress" showed that way. I can give the House a firm undertaking that the Government will take the recommendations of the Marine Accident and Investigation Branch extremely seriously. It is right that we learn all the lessons that are available from the report.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, returned to the amendments which deal with the definition of "accident". He is quite right in that we have gone as far as we can within our international obligations in coming up with a definition which we firmly believe enables us to react in a proper manner where there is the threat that we have established. For that reason, I prefer our amendment to that of the noble Lord. My advice is that the government amendment would cover ships drifting without power where there is a threat of pollution as defined in the amendment. But Amendment No. 8 could prevent the UK from acceding to the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention.

On the question of tides and charts, the problem was dealt with extremely thoroughly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, in terms of the changing nature of the seabed and the effects of the atmospheric conditions on any specific day on tides and the amount of water available for navigation. The Hydrographic Office has a good reputation for its work. My understanding is that it was not sent a copy of the MAIB's draft report. One has to draw one's own conclusions from that. It is not for me to make specific statements on that until the report is with Ministers and published.

My Lords, perhaps the Minister will give way. In relation to the question of hydrography, how many, if any, hydrography vessels are in the ownership of the department or any other agency? Is it that the department charters hydrography vessels? Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient is being done in that respect to ensure that appropriate research is being conducted and accurate information given to those who are working in ships and to those who own them?

My Lords, in the general round of things and not referring specifically to the incident in question, I have not been aware of any such problems. In regular meetings with shipowners, fishermen and others who rely on charts around the UK coast, I have not been made aware of such problems. With regard to the detail of the chartering of vessels and so forth, I shall be more than happy to write to the noble Lord.

Turning to a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, with regard to my statement in relation to co-operation, it is our view that these matters work best through co-operation. However, there is to be a review of the national contingency plan. What I said about intervention powers in general is that we would use powers to require salvage plans to be submitted for agreement by the Secretary of State's senior representative. Therefore there could well be an intervention that stopped short of intervening directly to take overall command of an incident. However, those powers are available where necessary.

My Lords, that addresses a point which troubles me. If there is a distinction to be made between taking overall powers and intervening in specific respects, we shall find ourselves in difficulties. Surely the Secretary of State's representative must be able to say: "I have heard what you say. I have considered it, but I do not agree. It would be better if we did this". He should not have to use intervention powers to achieve that. If there is the slightest reluctance on the part of people who have power, such as harbour authorities and so forth, to go along with the Secretary of State's chosen route, then he merely says, "This is what we are going to do".

My Lords, I do not believe there is very much between myself and the noble and learned Lord on this point. Perhaps I have not explained myself sufficiently clearly. I agree that where the Secretary of State's senior representative felt that in the case of disagreement with advice that had been given and the taking of overall command where there was good reason to do so, he should be able to do that and, indeed, is able to do that.

The noble and learned Lord pressed me on another point and inquired whether there was some great bureaucratic chain that had to be followed or whether the procedure could be followed rapidly. I am pleased to reassure him that it can be done rapidly and there is not a great long process to be undertaken where the situation demands it and where it can be so justified.

The final point the noble and learned Lord asked me was in regard to the definition of "pilot". I understand—I am subject to correction—that that has been directly taken from previous legislation. I hope that answers the questions put forward.

My Lords, I intervened after the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, to ask whether the national wildlife contingency plan was to be taken into account in the review of the national contingency plan itself.

My Lords, the answer is yes. I hope that with that single word answer the noble Lord is satisfied and the House will feel able to accept Amendment No. 2.

moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 3, line 38, after ("waters)") insert ("is amended in accordance with subsections (1A) to (1C).

(1A)").

moved Amendment No. 7:

Page 3, line 41, at end insert— ("(IB) In subsection (2)—

(a) after sub-paragraph (b) there is inserted—

"(bb) to any pilot of the ship, or"; and

(b) at the end there is inserted "or

(d) where the ship is in waters which are regulated or managed by a harbour authority—

(i) to the harbour master, or

(ii) to the harbour authority."

(1C) In subsection (9)—

(a) for the definition of "accident" there is substituted—

""accident" means a collision of ships, stranding or other incident of navigation, or other occurrence on board a ship or external to it resulting in material damage or imminent threat of material damage to a ship or cargo;"; and.

(b) after the definition of "owner" there is inserted—

""pilot" means any person not belonging to a ship who has the conduct of the ship;".").

moved Amendment No. 9:

Page 4, line 38, after ("may") insert (", after consulting interested bodies,").

My Lords, perhaps I may give a similarly brief response. A major plank of the Government's policy is to consult with interested parties on a wide range of measures. However, Amendment No. 9 duplicates existing provisions. There is already a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult interested organisations. The requirement is given in Section 306(4) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, as amended by paragraph 14(5) of Schedule 6 to the Bill, and therefore Amendment No. 9 is unnecessary. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw it.

My Lords, unhesitatingly I rise to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 10:

Page 5, line 11, at end insert—

(" () No order may be made under this section or any of sections 130B to 130D unless a draft of it has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.").

My Lords, the noble Lord has made the shortest speech to an amendment that I have yet heard. I regret that my answer, clear as it will be, will take a fraction longer. The intention of the amendment would appear to be to make all regulations on port waste reception facilities subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. That would unnecessarily delay the making of regulations on waste management planning. It is important that the regulations are made as quickly as practicable. Our intention is that the regulations would evolve as the Government and the industry gain more experience of the practicalities of the measures we are introducing. Once the first regulations—

My Lords, can the noble Viscount explain why matters would be delayed if there were an affirmative resolution?

My Lords, my understanding is that time has to be found in both Houses of Parliament for matters to be debated. Hence the delay that might well occur.

Once the first regulations had been made we would intend to keep them up to date with technical amendments. It would therefore be inappropriate and unnecessarily time-consuming for all such amendments to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Furthermore, the drafting of the amendment is flawed because it would conflict with existing provisions on the procedure for making regulations.

For those reasons, I hope the noble Lord will agree with me that the current arrangements in the Bill are more appropriate.

My Lords, I am little puzzled. I could understand if the Minister were to say that for a particular class of draft regulation it would not be appropriate to follow this procedure. However, he excludes them all.

My Lords, in the interest of brevity, I did not go on to describe the procedures for this section of the Bill in terms of the fact that both affirmative and negative resolution procedures are used.

New Section 130D(3) and (4) would apply both affirmative and negative resolution procedures to different parts of Clause 5, depending on the nature of the regulations. The noble Lord's amendment would add a conflicting provision to Section 130A and, if it were to be adopted, would add ambiguity. It is not very clear which of the conflicting provisions would apply. Different procedures are used for different parts of the Bill. That is essentially the answer to the noble Lord's question.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 11:

Page 5, line 12, at beginning insert—

("() The Secretary of State shall produce draft regulations on waste management plans no later than 1st July 1998.").

My Lords, this is an area in which we need to have a degree of uniformity. That can be produced only by regulations. There is considerable variation between ports. The more these matters are left to voluntary and unregulated plans, the less likely it is that there will be a fairly uniform code of practice. It is clear that not every port will need to have exactly the same regulations. However, there should be a general standard which can be relied on by everyone who has to deal with this matter. For that we need draft regulations to be produced fairly soon. Without regulations it is likely that there will be no resources. Resources are needed. If one has regulations, one has enforcement, and resources have to be produced. That is a good reason for supporting the amendment.

My Lords, there has certainly been good progress made on waste management plans. It was an important part of the package of 18 measures which I announced to combat the problem of illegal discharges. I believe that one major side effect was to draw attention to the issue of illegal, deliberate discharges. Waste management plans are a significant part of the approach. I do not believe that there is a great deal of difference between any of us who have spoken on the issue today.

As regards the amendment itself, I do not believe that it is necessary because the Government are already committed to making regulations on port waste management plans. I have stated on a number of occasions that we intend to make these regulations as quickly as possible and practicable.

However, we need to allow sufficient time to take account of the lessons learnt from the voluntary planning regime introduced last year. The amendment is undesirable because it would restrict the time available to do this.

It is important to note that the concept of port waste management planning is relatively new. I am anxious, therefore, to ensure that we learn the necessary lessons in the light of the experience gained from the current voluntary regime before we make regulations.

As I stated in Committee, a sub-group of the Maritime Pollution Advisory Group is reviewing the port waste management plans which have been produced so far. That is in answer to the specific question of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Following consideration by the full group, my department will consult more widely on draft guidelines on the preparation and content of port waste management plans. These guidelines will be based on the best practices used in the guidelines produced so far.

It is of course better to make effective regulations after due consideration rather than to make bad regulations quickly. However, I certainly hope that we will be in a position to make draft regulations well before the date which the noble Lord gave of July 1998.

To the best of my knowledge there is no precedent for a provision of the type proposed by this amendment. It would also be ineffective. It would only require the Secretary of State to produce draft regulations by a set date, not to bring them into force. In fact, what I propose is for regulations to be brought forward as soon as possible following consultation on these new arrangements on the voluntary regime and for regulations—not just draft regulations—to be made as soon as possible. Getting the draft regulations in place is a key part of that.

As I have already said, we are committed to making these regulations just as soon as it is sensible and practicable to do so. I hope that the House will accept that, based on the experience that has been gained since we announced that this was due to be part of our policy, a great deal has changed. I commend the ports industry, environmental bodies and others in the waste management business who have been involved in this process for the hard work that has been put into reaching the position that we have today. The Government accept that it is an important part of policy to make sure that waste management plans are right and we are committed to that. For those reasons I hope that the noble Lord will not feel it necessary to include the specific provision that he has mentioned.

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his remarks about the progress which the Government are making in encouraging ports to produce these plans. It is extremely good news that he hopes to beat the date that has been inserted in the amendment for the production of a draft. It is obvious that the amendment is not in a form which could enter the statute book because, as the noble Viscount has rightly said, it is to some extent meaningless. The regulations may come in and it is good to hear that so much consultation is going on. I am sure that it will continue in the future. I believe that we have had a very useful debate on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 12:

Page 6, leave out lines 37 and 38 and insert ("The master of a ship shall—").

My Lords, I entirely agree with all that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has said on the earlier amendments. I shall limit my remarks to Amendment No. 16 which stands in my name. Although I understood the noble Lord to be in general support of it, I note that he has not put his name to it.

Amendment No. 16 allows regulations requiring the use of inclusive fee systems. The text of new subsection (4)(a) in the Bill as it stands will allow regulations prohibiting charging for reception facilities. The implication is that the regulations could require that reception facilities must be provided completely free of charge by harbour authorities. We do not believe that prohibiting charges is in the best interests of the environment. We would prefer that the use of reception facilities was charged for, but that the charges were included in the harbour dues that vessels pay automatically when entering port. That is known as the inclusive fee system.

The logic behind it is that vessel owners are more likely to use something that they have already paid for. The system was recommended in the Donaldson Report at Recommendation 27C. Furthermore, in January 1996 the Government stated that they,

"will seek powers to allow for the voluntary [inclusive fee system] regime to be made mandatory, should this appear to be necessary".

Our amendment therefore intends to avoid regulations which would require completely free use of reception facilities. Instead, we propose regulations that would require the introduction of an inclusive fee system. We acknowledge that the inclusive fee system is probably most appropriate for garbage and non-cargo oily wastes. Oily waste from cargo tanks is likely to be more voluminous and specialised and would therefore cost more than an inclusive fee system could cope with easily. Those differences in approach for different types of waste could easily be taken into account when the regulations are drafted.

The Government may state that the Bill as it stands allows for regulations requiring an inclusive fee system. However, we consider that any text prohibiting charges for the use of reception facilities clearly rules out the inclusive fee system. That is because the inclusive fee system still involves a charge, albeit included in harbour dues.

The ports industry is known to be opposed to the inclusive fee system because it considers that it would create more administration for it since the industry would generally have to reimburse waste contractors out of their dues. In addition, the industry fears that it could make UK ports unattractive when compared with countries which do not use such an inclusive fee system. We acknowledge that more administration would be involved, but believe that the inclusive fee system is likely to be introduced anyway on a North Sea-wide basis in the medium term. We do not foresee that it will make UK ports more unattractive. When we come to Amendment No. 16, I hope that the Government will be prepared to accept it.

My Lords, we have had an interesting discussion on the issues raised by Amendments Nos. 12, 13, 14 and 16 to which the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, has just spoken.

Noble Lords clearly support the purpose of our proposals in new Section 130C(2) and wish them to be brought into effect as soon as possible. The new powers would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring ships to discharge waste into port waste reception facilities. Discharge would be required either in such circumstances as prescribed in the regulations or when directed to do so by a port state control inspector. The issue of the enforcement of compliance is raised again in Amendment No. 15, which follows this group.

The powers could be a useful addition to existing powers to enforce pollution regulations. Clearly, no ship should be allowed to leave port if it is carrying too much waste on board. However, a power to require waste to be discharged would provide only part of the answer. It would not stop ships from discharging into the sea before they entered port. We have to be careful about producing a system which might unintentionally bring about such a reaction from unscrupulous owners or masters.

It is also vitally important that we do not act too hastily. The new powers would need to be used carefully. We have repeatedly stated that we will consult fully on these regulations, as we have already consulted on the other elements of the Bill. This is necessary to ensure that the benefits and costs are proportionate, and that the practical difficulties of mandatory discharge are fully addressed. We also need to make sure that the regulations are consistent with international law and our treaty obligations.

Our first priority remains to develop regulations on waste management planning to improve the provision of port waste reception facilities. The planning process will ensure that ships which regularly visit a port should be consulted about the adequacy of the facilities in that port. It would be far better to encourage ship operators to use facilities than to attempt to force them to do so. But, if encouragement does not achieve the results that we are committed to, we are fully ready to consider making mandatory discharge regulations under this power, as I have already made clear.

The amendment would remove a number of safeguards which Clause 5 provides for the regulations: for example, Clause 5 currently requires that there should be full consultation with interested parties and that the regulations would need to be approved by both Houses. It also stipulates the offences for non-compliance with the regulations. The amendments would have the effect of exempting mandatory discharge from these provisions. I doubt whether that is the intention.

Amendment No. 13 would add the words "by regulations" after "prescribed". This is unnecessary because the term "prescribe" is defined in new Section 130E as meaning "prescribe by regulations". That is merely a technical point but, as I have said, there is a difficulty with this amendment with regard to consultation.

I turn now to Amendment No. 16, to which the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, spoke. The Bill allows for regulations to prevent direct charges from being levied for the use of waste reception facilities. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, pointed out that mariners are more likely to use port waste reception facilities if direct charges are not imposed when the facilities are used.

This amendment would require port authorities to include charges for waste reception facilities in harbour dues. Although we expect that many port authorities might choose to recover costs in this way, it is not the only means available to them. For example, some port authorities might choose to recover costs through fixed term contracts with port users. The costs of some facilities may also be recovered through profits made by recycling waste materials. The legislation should recognise the need for operational and commercial decisions by individual ports.

The Bill achieves the same results as this amendment by providing for regulations which, if made, would prohibit direct charges. The intention behind Amendment No. 16, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, is already covered by the terms of the Bill. There is additional flexibility for such charging systems as fixed term contracts to be employed. The Bill allows, but does not compel, port authorities to recover those costs through harbour dues if they so choose. We believe that this is a far more effective and flexible mechanism which recognises the commercial decisions that port authorities must take about the operation of their business.

To sum up the final amendment in this group, there is very little between the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, and me on the issue of direct charging. I have given the Government's overall view on that subject. However, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that the Bill already contains what he requires while providing additional flexibility to port operators. With those words, I hope that both noble Lords will feel able to withdraw the amendments that they have tabled.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of Amendment No 12. He has given me a good deal of comfort that in many ways the Government's heart is in the right place, as we have heard throughout this debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 15:

Page 6, line 44, at end insert—

("() The Departmental Officer may order the detention of a ship which fails to deposit waste as required by subsection (2) until such time as the master of the ship shall comply with the initial request.").

My Lords, this amendment has much the same intention as the Government's Amendment No. 50 which adds a new paragraph 13A to Schedule 6. Both amendments will enable a port state control inspector to delay the departure of a vessel until the master has complied with the requirement to discharge waste. However, the government amendment would achieve this by extending the existing powers to prohibition notices which would ensure consistency with other enforcement measures and also ensure that the master had recourse to existing rights to refer the notice to arbitration, which is an important safeguard, if he considered that the power had been used unreasonably. The noble Lord's amendment creates a wholly new power of detention which is not fully defined in legislation. I suggest that is neither justified nor desirable.

This is another case of great minds thinking remarkably alike. I hope that the noble Lord will express a preference for the Government's amendment, Amendment No. 50, and seek leave to withdraw Amendment No. 15.

My Lords, I am very pleased that the Minister has taken his own advice and drafted a suitable amendment. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 16:

Page 7, line 5, leave out ("prohibiting the imposition") and insert ("requiring the inclusion in harbour dues").

moved Amendment No. 17:

After Clause 6, insert the following new clause—

REGISTER OF COMPLIANCE OF VESSELS WITH STATUTORY PROVISION

(".—(1) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to maintain a register containing—

(a) any documents produced under section 257(2)(a) or copied under section 257(2)(b) of the 1995 Act;

(b) any improvement notices served under section 261 of the 1995 Act;

(c) any prohibition notice served under section 262 of the 1995 Act;

(d) all other relevant or consequent documents associated with the serving of prohibition or improvement notices under section 261 and 262 of the 1995 Act;

(e) written details of any offences committed under sections 131, 139 or 266 of the 1995 Act; and

(f) written details of fines imposed for offences under sections 131 or 139 of the 1995 Act.

(2) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State maintaining a register under this section—

(a) to secure that the register is available, at all reasonable times, for inspection by the public free of charge;

(b) to afford members of the public facilities for obtaining copies of the documents kept in the register on the payment of reasonable charges;

(c) to supply members of the public with copies of the documents kept in the register on payment of a reasonable charge for copying, not more than two months following receipt of a written request for such documents; and

(d) to ensure that all documents mentioned in subsection (1) are placed on the register within two weeks of their being brought into existence.").

My Lords, as ever, I am grateful for helpful advice from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. We had an interesting discussion on this issue in Committee. I have looked again at the arguments that have been put forward. I maintain that we have gone to considerable lengths to publicise offences where they occur. That is a much better method of giving the matter publicity as a deterrent effect, which is what we are all concerned about, and entails a considerably smaller bureaucracy than the cost of maintaining a comprehensive register. This amendment would entail considerable additional cost and bureaucracy without providing any significant benefits to safety or pollution prevention.

We already publicise serious cases of safety and pollution offences. On one occasion we circulated to the media full colour aerial photographs of a vessel discharging wastes into the sea. Such publicity makes it clear which ships have been found to be substandard or to be operating illegally. Publicity of this type affects the choices made by cargo interests of the vessels that they charter and encourages ship operators to behave responsibly. For such publicity to be effective, it needs to be precisely targeted on serious safety and pollution offences.

The register of offences proposed in this amendment would not be targeted in this way. It would have the effect of obscuring serious safety and pollution offences by a mass of information about less important incidents, including offences which had been committed accidentally. It would also be available only to those who go looking for it rather than the approach we have taken which is to be rather more proactive. We believe that we can achieve a greater impact by providing information which can be published in the specialist press. That way it is quickly and effectively brought to the attention of cargo owners and others involved in transportation by sea.

We must maintain a sense of proportion over this issue. We shall continue to target resources on publicising serious offences. A register such as the one that has been suggested would be bureaucratic and costly. It would divert resources from where they are most needed, while providing little or no tangible environmental or safety benefit. Surely what we have to do with the resources that are at our disposal, without making the whole process unduly bureaucratic and complicated, is to make the maximum use of the resources that are available.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he give us some idea of the cost of this bureaucratic organisation that he has mentioned several times? It does not need to be particularly bureaucratic or costly. It would be useful if he could also give the House some information about the cost of operating the equivalent land-based public registers that I mentioned earlier. Will he also explain the difference between the land and the marine approach?

My Lords, I do not have figures to reply to the questions that the noble Lord asked. Working up figures is in itself an expense on bureaucracy. The noble Lord has asked why one approach is taken for land-based pollution and another for marine-based pollution. Without making an obvious point, the answer is that ships can travel, discharge oil and commit offences in a wide variety of states and jurisdictions. So such a register maintained in the UK alone would have little real effect because it could in no way be comprehensive, apart, I suppose, for vessels that trade only within UK waters.

I have a feeling that that will not satisfy the noble Lord, but I hope that he thinks that we take this issue seriously and that we feel the best way of achieving it is to use the resources on generating publicity. As a final serious point, for any register to be maintained it would have to be done properly. One could not have a slap-dash, haphazard attempt at doing so, at minimal cost. It would have to be maintained with scrupulous accuracy and that in itself takes resources.

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the Minister said, and I am grateful to him for his replies. I shall study them carefully, and may wish to revisit the matter. However, at present, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 18:

After Clause 6, insert the following new clause—

INSPECTION AND REGISTER OF OIL RECORDS

(".—(1) It shall be the duty of port state control inspectors to make copies of all oil record books inspected.

(2) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to maintain a public register containing—

(a) any such copies made under subsection (1) above; and

(b) any written record of any reports to any harbour authority made under section 136 of the 1995 Act.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State in relation to any register under subsection (2) above—

(a) to secure that the register is available, at all reasonable times, for inspection by the public free of charge;

(b) to afford members of the public facilities for obtaining copies of the documents kept in the Register, on the payment of reasonable charges;

(c) to supply members of the public with copies of the documents kept in the register, on payment of a reasonable charge for copying, not more than two months following receipt of written request for such documents; and

(d) to ensure that all documents defined in subsection (2) are placed on the register within two weeks of their being brought into existence.

(4) In this section, 'oil record book' means any book having been issued to, and completed by, all visiting ships under regulation 10 of the Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Oil Pollution) Regulations 1996 or under any relevant international convention.").

My Lords, I shall not detain the House long over this amendment because it is similar to Amendment No. 17 to which I have just spoken. However, it gives me the opportunity to say that the content of this amendment in terms of freedom of information and freedom of access to environmental information directive from the European Community covers the same ground. When the Minister responds, perhaps he could answer the question which I posed just now, which applies equally to this amendment: how could the Government legitimately refuse to publish this information under the EEC freedom of access to environmental information directive?

My Lords, the arguments with regard to this amendment have many similarities with the arguments to do with the previous amendment. They are to do with the bureaucracy of setting up formal registers. The Government's commitment to reducing pollution from vessels, be it accidental or deliberate, is without question. A large part of the Bill is to do with that very aim. We all have the same aim.

The amendment would require port state control inspectors to make copies of all oil record books inspected. Noble Lords will be aware that port state control inspectors carry out the majority of their work whilst on board ships. They do not generally have access to copying facilities while on board. It would be needlessly costly and time-consuming to remove all oil record books from the ship for them to be copied and then returned. It could also be contrary to our international obligations that port state control inspections should not cause undue delay for ships. It would not be justified to delay ships while copies are made of oil record books, unless those record books suggested that there had been a breach of oil discharge regulations.

The amendment is also of questionable benefit. As with other amendments proposing registers of information, it would require voluminous information to be collated at considerable cost. It would be much more effective to use the information selectively to publicise ships which are found to be substandard or deliberately causing marine pollution. That remains our policy.

Many of the suggestions that have been put forward by noble Lords from all sides of the House have been picked up, and we have come forward with amendments to implement them. So I have no dogmatic opposition to the intention behind the proposals that have been put forward. My concern is one of practicality. I do not want to saddle the industry or the Government with additional bureaucracy unless it can be shown that that would have major benefits in terms of reducing pollution.

The government view is that a register such as this one, or the one proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on the previous amendment, would not have the effect of achieving major reductions in pollution and would not be justified. For those reasons, which are similar to the ones I used on the previous amendment, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, will he respond to the point about the application of the freedom of access to information directive? Is my noble friend right about the interpretation of that directive? If not, perhaps the Minister will explain why. I have some sort of interest in the directive because I introduced it.

My Lords, any document introduced by the noble Lord must be of considerable quality indeed. I am sure that the House will join me in that opinion.

The warmest words aside, I regret that I cannot answer either noble Lord who posed that question. I must take specific advice on that matter. Once I have done so, I shall be happy to write to the noble Lords and copy the letter—

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, will he assure the House that such correspondence will be placed in the Library and will be available well before the Third Reading?

My Lords, yes.

My Lords, I do not entirely accept the Minister's arguments, particularly in view of his present inability to answer the question posed by the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Clinton-Davis. When we have the answer I shall decide whether to proceed with the matter on Third Reading. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 19:

Before Clause 7, insert the following new clause—

OFFENCE UNDER SECTION 131 OF 1995 ACT

(". In section 131(l)(a) of the 1995 Act the words "or master" shall be omitted.").

My Lords, as this is the Report stage I shall intervene briefly, anticipating what I understand will be the Minister's answer. It seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, has made a formidable case and I ask the noble Viscount to consider the matter further with a view to fixing an appropriate maximum for someone in the position of a master of a ship.

My Lords, the danger is that a proposition such as that contained in the Bill might make the law look silly. Nobody wants that to happen, particularly if nobody believes that at the end of the road effect is going to be given to that massive, indeed draconian, fine. It is right that a strong signal should be sent to all concerned and that we should concentrate the minds of all concerned on the consequences of their actions or inactions. However, a fine of a £j million is out of all proportion to either the responsibility of the master or his ability to pay. As my noble friend said, it is the owner who is responsible for managing the ship and for the performance of the ship and its crew. The master is an employee. He is certainly an extremely important employee, but his role is subsidiary to that of the owner. If the purpose is to concentrate the mind of the owner, surely to goodness £50,000 is quite adequate for that purpose.

I understand that the Minister has been known to express doubts as to whether magistrates would levy such a fine. I understand that he has pointed out that such a fine would quite possibly be changed on appeal.

But if there are doubts in his mind, that underlines the fact that the threat of a potential fine of £j million is totally unrealistic. It is much more realistic and sensible to follow the course proposed in the amendment.

My Lords, at present either the ship's owner or its master can be prosecuted for a discharge of oil in harbour waters. As we have heard, this amendment would prevent the prosecution of a master.

As I have said already in correspondence with the noble Lord, at meetings and on the Floor of the House, our general policy, where possible, is to seek to impose penalties on the owners and operators of ships rather than on ships' masters. That should encourage shipping companies to instruct their crews to comply with regulations dealing with pollution prevention and to allow them sufficient time to do so.

However, there are occasions when it is appropriate and justified to prosecute a master. It is quite possible that a ship's crew will choose to discharge waste illegally, even when a shipowner has taken all reasonable steps to prevent that. In the case of foreign ships, it may not always be possible directly to prosecute the shipowner. In such circumstances and, indeed, in some others I see no reason why the master should escape prosecution. It is extremely important that we recognise the power of the master. He is ultimately the man responsible on the spot and I do not believe that in any of our discussions about this we should lose sight of that fact. The court will of course take account of the means of the offender when fixing the level of the fine.

The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, described the Government's approach to giving information to magistrates about oil pollution offences. We are doing that in two ways. Clause 7 provides for increases to the maximum fines which magistrates may impose for illegal discharges. We wish to see also increases in the actual fines which magistrates impose. I have written to the Magistrates' Association offering to provide magistrates with information to help them to assess what level of fines would act as a deterrent to polluters. The association has agreed that I should do so by writing an article for its journal The Magistrate.

The increases about which we have heard are long overdue. The one point that I should like to make in relation to the matters raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, and other noble Lords is that in the case of the fine for oil pollution the maximum has not been increased since 1971, and in 1971 the maximum fine was higher in real terms than that which is now proposed. Therefore, if we cast our minds back to when the fines were introduced originally, the fines, including those for masters, were higher than those which we propose now. That must be an important factor in our considerations.

I feel very strongly indeed that we should still have powers to prosecute a master where appropriate. I am very firm about that. However, strong sentiments have been expressed in the House about the level of the fine. While I can give no undertaking in any form that I shall make any changes on Third Reading, I undertake to look once again at this issue in consultation with other government departments which have considerable experience on the matter of fines. With that, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am glad that he is prepared to reflect on the amount of the fine. The debates that we have had on this matter have certainly stimulated the Minister to consult on these matters. I am glad that he will do so. Certainly we shall need to return to this matter on Third Reading.

There is something to be said in favour of the proposition that a master should not be excluded entirely. I concede that. But the essence of the matter is the amount of the fine. The Minister said—and I believe that it is not a good argument—that because in 1971 the maximum was established at £50,000, it is right to increase it in relation to the different financial circumstances which prevail today, so that in real terms it can be compared with the fine as it was then. That is an extremely theoretical approach because the truth of the matter is that in some instances the courts have not even come within reach of a fine of £50,000. Therefore, to increase the fine in line with inflation in order to adopt a theoretical position does not make a lot of sense.

We must look at what is the experience of the courts. The Minister is absolutely right to say that the courts have not taken a sufficiently strong view about those matters, particularly with regard to owners. We support the Minister's view that the courts should be guided in the direction of recognising more than they have in the past how serious are some of those offences.

But at the end of the day, I want to thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, and my noble friend Lord Murray for their interventions because I feel that we may have begun to persuade the Minister. I have a feeling that the Minister is already half-persuaded, although I accept that he has given no undertakings. It may be that the debate on Third Reading will bring forward a more positive result. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 20:

Page 12, line 33, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall, by 31st December 1997,").

My Lords, the amendment has flaws in it such as those which I described and which I believe in all fairness the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, accepted as regards a previous amendment that attempted to include deadlines for the Secretary of State to produce draft regulations. As in that circumstance, the Government's commitment to the issue goes without saying. As I announced in Committee, we intend to act quickly after full consultation with interested parties. Indeed, I can tell the noble Lord that the target remains the same. We hope to have klondyker regulations in place by the winter of 1997. It is extremely important that we pursue that target with vigour. I can assure the noble Lord that that is our aim.

As I said earlier, I do not know of any precedent for a provision of the kind suggested. Of course, the amendment would only require the Secretary of State to make regulations by a certain date, not bring them into force at any particular time. Therefore, with the assurance of the Government's commitment on the issue, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for giving us the good news as regards progress on the klondykers. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 21:

Page 13, line 25, at end insert—

(" () No new trans-shipment licence shall be issued until—

(a) any fines and inspection fees have been settled; and

(b) the contravention specified in the notice under subsection

(2) has been remedied.").

My Lords, in rising to express my support for the amendment, I have nothing further to add to what the noble Lord has said, save to congratulate him on his excellent Polish.

My Lords, clearly the linguistic skills of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, are without parallel in this House. I have considered carefully the noble Lord's proposal that no new licences should be issued to klondykers until any fines and fees have been paid and the contravention put right. I am not persuaded that the amendment is necessary.

If a new licence for a particular ship were issued before any fines and inspection fees had been settled and the contraventions specified in the prohibition notice had been remedied, the prohibition notice already in force would also override the new licence. The notice would not be revoked until the contravention had been remedied. That would be done after an inspection, for which fees are payable in advance. I hope therefore that the noble Lord will feel that the point he is pursuing, with such ability in foreign tongues, is already covered.

My Lords, I believe that that is probably the case. However, I shall read carefully what has been said. It seems to me that what the noble Viscount said means that the point is already covered. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 22:

Page 13, line 37, leave out ("the statutory maximum") and insert ("£50,000").

My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for considering what we said in such a positive fashion. We are most grateful to him. Indeed, it is possible that the increased sum of £50,000 may have a sentiment in another direction—namely, in relation to the earlier amendment that we discussed.

moved Amendment No. 23:

After Clause 11, insert the following new clause—

PREPARATION OF PLANS UNDER INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON OIL POLLUTION PREPAREDNESS, RESPONSE AND CO-OPERATION

(". In section 128 of the 1995 Act (prevention of pollution from ships etc.) after subsection (3) there is inserted—

"(3A) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) above, an Order in pursuance of paragraph (d) of that subsection may also in particular include provision imposing on local authorities responsibilities in relation to the preparation, review and implementation of any plans required by the agreement mentioned in that paragraph."").

My Lords, we welcome this amendment. However, I wish to ask the Minister one or two questions. Will local authority contingency plans be subject to the approval of the MPCU? As regards Amendment No. 54 to Clause 29, will the requirement to prepare contingency plans also apply to harbour authorities and oil handling facilities? I may have missed something the Minister said, but can he be a little more specific on the timing as regards the introduction of this requirement? I think he said something about when the review was completed, after the passage of the Bill. Can he give some indication how long the review will take? I welcome full consultation and I applaud what he suggests in that regard, but perhaps he can be more specific on that. If he cannot respond tonight, perhaps he will write to me about the matter. It would be better if he could reply this evening as that may mean that we do not have to revisit the matter at the next stage of the Bill.

My Lords, I have one small drafting point to raise. The proposed new clause states:

"Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)".

That is a useful drafting device but it can be misleading if it is used when it is not required, and it also then acts as a precedent. It might be required if the clause went on to say "shall in particular", although even that would be arguable. But as it is permissive, I cannot see how it can possibly be,

"Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)".

All I ask is that the noble Viscount should consider the matter with the draftsman and satisfy himself that those words are necessary.

My Lords, I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, did not have any particular difficulties with the explanations given as regards the history of consulting local authorities on this subject, the importance of consulting fully and reaching a decision at the end of that process. As I said, the initial consultation did not produce a firm result. It is important that it dovetails with the review of the national contingency plan. The noble Lord asked me two specific questions about approval by the MPCU and about oil handling at terminals and the like. My understanding is that the answer to both those questions is in the affirmative.

I trembled when I heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, refer to detailed drafting issues, on which he is infinitely more experienced than I. I have difficulty in venturing an opinion, and my opinion on the subject may not coincide with his. However, I am advised that new Section 128(3A) is needed because Section 128(1) gives general powers to implement conventions. This provision clarifies its extent. I do not know whether that detailed explanation meets with the approval of the noble and learned Lord! Perhaps he will indicate whether that is the case. I sincerely hope it does.

My Lords, all I ask is that the matter should be looked at again in the light of what I said.

My Lords, I have asked for advice on the points that the noble and learned Lord made. I have been advised that it is necessary to take the action I have described. I hope it will meet with the approval of the noble and learned Lord if we accept this amendment tonight, but if on further examination a problem arises between now and Third Reading, I undertake to remedy it. I hope that approach meets with the approval of the noble and learned Lord.

My Lords, will the noble Viscount consider arranging a meeting at which the matter can be discussed with the draftsman and I can express my point rather better than I think I have this afternoon?

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I do not believe there is anything wrong with the noble and learned Lord's explanation of his point. However, I do not know whether the same can be said of my explanation. Certainly I can arrange a meeting. Would it meet with the noble and learned Lord's approval if we accepted this amendment this evening, held the meeting subsequently, and if there was a problem we could return to the matter on Third Reading and amend the amendment? I hope that would be acceptable to the House.

My Lords, that seems to be entirely appropriate.

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I suggest that we take that course of action on the understanding that I shall arrange a meeting with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, and any other noble Lord who wishes to attend.

My Lords, to save time, I shall not move this or the following group of amendments for reasons which will become clear when we discuss the two following groups of Government amendments.

moved Amendment No. 27:

Page 27, line 20, at end insert ("or Part VIII").

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that very lengthy explanation of an extremely complex batch of amendments. Perhaps I might take up a point made at the outset of our proceedings this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. The Minister and his department were extremely helpful during the Recess. I had meetings with him, and the Government also talked to the general lighthouse authorities. As a result of those discussions we now have the set of amendments read out by the Minister which go a long way towards allaying the fears that were originally in the minds of the general lighthouse authorities at an earlier stage of the Bill. I express my thanks to the Minister for what he was able to do to help our case.

Perhaps I may make a few remarks on behalf of the general lighthouse authorities, as, I know, will other noble Lords. I know that the authorities are greatly gratified by assurances given by the Minister that their functions are not to be unduly tampered with and that the General Lighthouse Fund will continue to exist in its present form. We are also extremely pleased that the Secretary of State's previous wide discretion has to a great extent been removed in regard to making new regulations under Community or international obligations.

As the Minister said, relations over the years between the general lighthouse authorities and the department have been extremely good. We have a system that works very well. Our expertise is widely regarded throughout Europe. Anything which might have disrupted that good working arrangement would have been a shame. In the course of our deliberations we have come up with a measure that allays those fears.

I also point out how important it is for the general lighthouse authorities to maintain this particular means of funding. It gives them the most important freedom to plan ahead. That is not always possible with other countries where lighthouse and buoyage functions are centrally funded. It is an enormous plus point so far as our operation is concerned. We certainly want to see it preserved.

I do not intend to go into detail. The Minister gave a very adequate explanation of what is proposed. It has certainly taken the place of the amendments that I originally tabled. I do not ask for any more. However, there is just a niggling fear on the part of the lighthouse authorities that the General Lighthouse Fund could be marginalised if any international obligation were to trigger a disproportionate reduction by setting up an alternative fund which would deal not only with the international obligation but also with the existing responsibilities of the General Lighthouse Fund. I know what the Minister said, and the thrust of the other amendments allays many of those fears. However, a further possible assurance might bear repetition by the Minister and would go a long way towards getting rid of that final niggling point.

I repeat my broad welcome for these amendments. I thank the Minister for his efforts and those of his officials in relation to this matter.

My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, who has immense experience in this field, in congratulating my noble friend on the great improvements that he has achieved. I welcome them and am glad that all the matters under dispute, which were of great anxiety, have now been disposed of so elegantly and with such good will. Accordingly, my noble friend is greatly to be congratulated on his achievement.

My Lords, I wish to join with noble Lords who have just spoken in congratulating the noble Viscount the Minister on the manner in which he has handled Schedule 2. When the schedule was first printed it started alarm bells ringing in Trinity House, the Northern Lighthouse Board and the Commissioners of Irish Lights. It was difficult to understand how the provision was ever thought up. It threatened the core of the GLAs' operations, their method of funding and fund management. It is therefore a matter of relief that the Minister tackled the problem after the Committee stage. All of us who had to deal with it, and with the Minister, thank him most sincerely for the great attention he paid to the representations. He has very cleverly managed this group of amendments. They tie the whole matter up and completely change the meaning of Schedule 2.

The Minister has improved the situation with Amendments Nos. 31 and 34. Amendment No. 31 allows the GLAs to collect funds for other purposes than light dues. Amendment No. 34 deals with a mechanism of financing which could be useful outside the main purpose of the schedule in dealing with international agreements. The GLAs are a resource of marine skills and experience which is becoming increasingly scarce. That is because of the much reduced opportunities for young people to enter into a marine career as a result, I am sorry to say, of the decline of the British merchant fleet. It could therefore become advantageous, and perhaps economic, for related work around these coasts to be undertaken by the GLAs. These two amendments make that possible.

I assure the House that the GLAs welcome the amendments and thank the Minister for the trouble he has taken. I have specific instructions from the Commissioners of Irish Lights to express their gratitude to the Minister for the way the matter has been handled.

My Lords, I was among those who were not particularly against Schedule 2 at the beginning. The wording of my noble friend's amendment is nevertheless an improvement.

However, where does that leave us in regard to charging for certain activities for which the GLAs do not presently charge? It is money that cannot presently be recouped. Do we have to wait for an international agreement with three or more countries; or, with the help of this Bill, can my noble friend introduce regulations to allow all charges to be made where costs are incurred and for which charges are not recouped at the moment?

I should also like to pay tribute at this stage to the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, for the enormous amount of work that I know he has done and reiterate the respect with which he is held not only in this House but outside for his knowledge of these matters. It is greatly due to him that we have the changes that are before us.

My Lords, the noble Earl has just asked the question that I intended to put. I look forward to the Minister's answer. I should like to join noble Lords who complimented the Minister on the way in which he has listened to the representations that have been made. I am not sure that I entirely follow his explanation but it seemed basically all right to me. It seemed to be on the right lines. But I shall ponder that and, after several sleepless nights, hope to come to the conclusion that he was absolutely right.

I join the noble Earl in complimenting the noble Lord, Lord Greenway. He conducted a formidable and diplomatic campaign which has had the desired results. It is an example that I hope will be followed in many other respects.

My Lords, I am very grateful indeed for the kind words of many noble Lords this afternoon. It was never our intention to bring forward any proposals that would cause the general lighthouse authorities particular alarm. I have sought to reassure them. I am very pleased indeed that this package of measures, which addresses their specific concerns, does just that.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, inquired whether any response that we would make to an international agreement would be proportionate. I can give him that assurance. That is certainly our intention and not to go beyond that. I hope that that gives additional assurance to the noble Lord, the House and indeed the general lighthouse authorities.

I was grateful for the view of my noble friend Lord Caithness that these proposals represented an improvement. I say that very genuinely indeed. Essentially, they allow what was originally envisaged by this schedule but they do so with added protection for the GLF. So in essence everybody is happy.

The point raised by my noble friend about wider charging is quite right. During our discussions on the Bill we have concentrated on the GLF side of things. But there are provisions in the Bill to charge for a number of counter-pollution services. It is our clear aim to seek international agreement for that. Our clear preference would be to take this forward on a multilateral approach. I certainly understand very clearly what would be the effects on the competitiveness not just of UK shipping but also of industry in the UK in a wider sense if charges were raised unilaterally. I certainly take that strong point made by my noble friend. We should certainly have to consider any implications for the competitiveness not only of UK ports and shipowners based in UK ports but also of exporters and importers using those ports. Certainly, I can assure the House that the Government would not introduce charges unilaterally without first carrying out a full evaluation of compliance costs for business and the adverse effects on competitiveness. Again, I re-emphasise that our preferred approach remains to achieve international agreement and we are making every effort to achieve that.

Again, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this discussion, especially those who have entered into the arena on the issue of charging of lights. I mention in particular the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, the noble Lord, Lord Cooke of Islandreagh, my noble friend Lord Cochrane and, of course, my noble friend Lord Caithness who contributed to this debate. I am very pleased that we now have an agreed solution. I commend the amendment to the House.

moved Amendment No. 30:

Page 27, leave out lines 27 to 36 and insert—

("3.—(l)If—

(a) any Community obligation, or

(b) any international agreement made between any three or more countries including the Republic of Ireland and ratified by the United Kingdom,

requires the United Kingdom to provide for any of the costs incurred by general lighthouse authorities in respect of lighthouses, buoys and beacons to be recovered otherwise than by means of the levying of general light dues in accordance with section 205 (as it has effect on the commencement of this Schedule), regulations under this Schedule may make provision imposing charges for the purposes of recovering all or any part of the costs so incurred.

(2) In this paragraph "buoys and beacons" includes equipment which is intended as an aid to the navigation of ships and, subject to that, expressions used in this paragraph and in Part VIII of this Act have the same meaning as in that Part.").

moved Amendment No. 31: Page 29, line 36, at end insert—

("(2) Regulations made under this Schedule by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) above may in particular confer on general lighthouse authorities functions relating to the collection and recovery of charges.").

My Lords, if the matters that we have been discussing could be referred to as the lottery, I feel that this provision could be called the bonus. It is something which was not foreseen in our initial discussions. It is a provision that the Government have brought forward only recently. I say only that it is most welcome and I thank the Government very much for it.

My Lords, I am always more than happy to hear such sentiments. I commend the amendment to the House.

My Lords, before calling Amendment No. 32, I should advise the House that if this amendment be agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 33 to 38.

moved Amendments Nos. 33 to 38:

Page 30, leave out line 7.

Page 30, leave out lines 8 to 10 and insert—

("(b) provide for payments which, apart from the regulations, would fall to be made out of the General Lighthouse Fund to be made by the Secretary of State out of money provided by Parliament,

(bb) provide for amounts which, apart from the regulations, would fall to be paid into the General Lighthouse Fund (other than general light dues levied in accordance with section 205) to be paid by the Secretary of State into the Consolidated Fund,

(bc) provide for the payment out of money provided by Parliament into the General Lighthouse Fund of amounts representing the whole or part of any charges imposed by virtue of paragraph 3, and").

Page 30, line 12, at end insert ("or").

Page 30, line 13, leave out ("or general lighthouse authorities").

Page 30, line 14, leave out ("appropriate") and insert ("necessary or expedient").

Page 30, line 16, leave out ("(a) or (b)") and insert ("(b), (bb) or (be)").

moved Amendment No. 39:

Page 30, line 16, at end insert—

("12A. If regulations under this Schedule make any provision by virtue of paragraph 9(2) above, regulations under this Schedule may also provide for the making by the Secretary of State to each general lighthouse authority out of money provided by Parliament of payments in respect of expenses incurred by that authority in connection with the collection or recovery of charges.").

moved Amendment No. 40:

Page 30, line 24, leave out ("with the consent of the Treasury").

My Lords, I have only a few words for the Minister: go on, upset the Treasury a bit; accept the advice that has been given; it makes sense. The whole thing is otiose to requirements. It may be that the current Chancellor of the Exchequer fears that he may be cut out of any consultation with his colleagues; that might be the real reason for the inclusion of the words.

My Lords, there are those who say that compared with solving the problems of navigation, changing the mind of the Treasury would be an extremely simple task. However, we have not heard that argument from anyone in the House today.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, has come back to his guns on his impressive campaign for deleting these words from all Bills, and particularly he has taken the opportunity of this Bill to wage his battle. I am advised that the need for an express requirement for Treasury consent or Treasury approval arises whenever Parliament, by placing a responsibility on a departmental Minister, might otherwise appear to reduce the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in matters of finance. Granting the Secretary of State for Transport the power to make decisions on the levying of fees and charges clearly falls into that category.

I would be more than slightly surprised if the noble and learned Lord stood up and said that I had entirely convinced him and that he would now retire from the fray a happy man. I do not suppose he will do that, but perhaps he will accept that this is not necessarily the choicest battleground on which to conduct his final campaign.

My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who have spoken. The noble Viscount is quite right. I am not satisfied. I have heard those words before. It is not one of those vintages that improves with being laid down or with age. He did not answer my question. Does he really think that if these words were not there the fund could be transferred to the Consolidated Fund other than with the consent of the Treasury? No doubt he did not answer that question because he did not feel he had sufficient command of his features to give the answer that is implied in his brief. If so, I sympathise with him. I am sorry but I shall not stop. However, on this occasion, as we want to get on, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 43:

Page 17, line 45, at end insert—

"Illegality of insurance contracts or other security providing indemnity for fines and other criminal penalties Insurance or security against fines or other penalties,

192B. Any insurance contract or other security which purports to indemnify a shipowner in respect of a fine or other penalty imposed by or under this Act shall be illegal and unenforceable."").

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, I have considerable sympathy with the intention behind the amendment. We too should be concerned if insurance cover were available for fines imposed under the Merchant Shipping Act. However, the provision proposed is unnecessary and unworkable.

It is unnecessary because existing UK legislation already excludes from insurance cover any loss attributable to the misconduct of the shipowner. I understand that most other maritime states have equivalent legislation. As a result, we have been given assurances that all major marine insurers do not provide cover for fines arising from wilful or reckless acts or misconduct on the part of the shipowner.

The amendment is unworkable because of the international nature of the shipping and insurance industries. This means that UK legislation is not applicable to the vast majority of insurance contracts between shipowners and marine insurers. My officials are therefore pursuing this important matter at an international level, through the International Maritime Organisation. I was pleased that the noble Lord felt that that was an appropriate forum to push this issue.

As a result of proposals put forward by the UK last year, the IMO has established a correspondence group on marine insurance. One of the issues which the group is considering is what are acceptable conditions of cover. We shall strongly argue to this group that insurance should not cover fines. The specific issue of insurance cover for fines is to be discussed later this year by the relevant IMO committees, including the legal committee and the marine environment protection committee. We shall play an active role in these discussions.

I hope that this work within the IMO will help us to work towards the elimination of any practices within the insurance industry which might harm the effectiveness of enforcement action carried out by governments. In particular, I believe it is unacceptable if insurance cover reduces the deterrent effect of fines. That would run counter to our policy of taking tough measures to combat marine pollution. We shall therefore press for the elimination of any practices which could have this result.

Broadly, the noble Lord and I are of much the same mind in believing that the international forum is where this has to be solved. I am grateful to him for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important issue, but I hope that he can now withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I hope that the signals he has given will be important in the discussions that take place within the IMO and other fora. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 44:

Page 19, line 41, at end insert—

("(5) The Secretary of State shall ensure that the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen records and preserves all documents transmitted to him for a period of at least 85 years.").

My Lords, Clause 21 replaces the requirement for the registrar general to record and preserve all documents transmitted to him with a requirement to hold all such documents as required by the Secretary of State. The recording and preserving of all documents is an onerous task. In practice, the majority of records are infrequently accessed. This clause reduces the burden of document storage and subsequent cost to the department by allowing the Secretary of State to limit the period of storage.

I do not believe that an amendment on the face of the Bill is necessary. There would be no question of material being lost which is either of interest to historians and archivists or which can be of use or of interest regarding the career records of seamen. To allay any fears about this I am happy to give an undertaking that relevant parties, including such bodies as RMT and UMAST—those concerned with representing seafarers—would be consulted, and also those with an interest in historic archives when the criteria are drawn up for what is retained and what is destroyed or passed on to other bodies. Documents which are no longer of use to the Registrar General will be made available to the Public Record Office or other institutions, provided that there are no constraints with regard to confidentiality. I hope that that meets the test that the noble Lord set me.

My Lords, the Minister is meeting most of the tests this evening. I am very grateful to him for that undertaking. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 46:

Page 58, line 47, at end insert—

("Inspection of ships and harbour areas

6A. In section 36(2) (powers of authorised person on inspection of ships or harbour areas), in paragraph (c), for "or the occupier of the land" there is substituted "the occupier of the land or any harbour operator".").

moved Amendment No. 47:

Page 21, line 37, at end insert ("and

(b) those provisions shall apply equally to the territorial waters of the United Kingdom.").

My Lords, as we all agreed during Committee stage, piracy is a significant problem in many parts of the world. It is not something that went out with sailing ships; indeed, the situation is the reverse of that. There are many areas of the world where the seas are unsafe and horrendous incidents have taken place involving heavily armed gangsters effectively attacking merchant vessels. So piracy is important and we recognise that.

However, I do not believe that there is the loophole which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is concerned about. I explained in Committee that under international law piracy means illegal acts taken on the high seas. By definition, it does not apply within a state's territorial sea and the ordinary criminal law applies there. If it takes place at home it is within territorial waters and it is not piracy. Therefore, there is no need to extend the provision.

The Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 provides a wide range of powers to control illegal acts in the territorial sea. I believe that the two together cover every possible situation so I do not believe that this amendment is necessary.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. I shall study his remarks carefully. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 48:

Page 61, line 6, at end insert—

("The Supreme Court Act 1981 (c. 54)

1A. In section 20 of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (Admiralty jurisdiction of High Court), in subsection (5)(b) for "International Oil Compensation Fund 1984" there is substituted "International Oil Pollution Compensation Fund 1992".").

moved Amendment No. 49:

Page 61, line 14, at end insert—

("2A.—(1) With respect to applications made after the commencement of this paragraph, section 158 of the 1995 Act (limitation actions), including that section as set out in Schedule 4 to that Act, is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (2)—

(a) for the words "and is entitled to limit it" there is substituted "but has not found that he is not entitled to limit it", and

(b) for "the limit of the liability" there is substituted "the limit which would apply to the applicant's liability if he were entitled to limit it".

(3) After subsection (2) there is inserted— "(2A) Where—

(a) a distribution is made under subsection (2)(b) above without the court having found that the applicant is entitled to limit his liability, and

(b) the court subsequently finds that the applicant is not so entitled,

the making of the distribution is not to be regarded as affecting the applicant's liability in excess of the amount distributed."").

moved Amendment No. 50:

Page 62, line 2, at end insert—

("13A. In section 261 (improvement notices), in subsection (4)(a), after "130" there is inserted "130A"").

moved Amendment No. 51:

Page 62, line 2, at end insert—

("13B. In section 293 (functions of Secretary of State in relation to marine pollution), in subsection (2), before sub-paragraph (a), there is inserted—

"(za) the preparation, review and implementation of a national plan setting out arrangements for responding to incidents which cause or may cause marine pollution with a view to preventing such pollution or reducing or minimising its effects;"").

moved Amendment No. 52:

Page 62, line 26, leave out ("or Schedule 11 A").