asked Her Majesty's Government:

What support they are giving to the efforts of the European football bodies to persuade the European Union institutions to exempt sport from the free movement of labour provisions of the Treaty of Rome.

My Lords, a European Union working group has been constituted to consider the case for exempting sport from the free movement of labour provisions of the Treaty of Rome. The group will also consider the effects of the Busman ruling on sport within the European economic area. The Government are presently consulting a wide range of UK sports bodies. The replies to that consultation will inform our discussions with the working group.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister very much for that Answer. However, given that the chances of securing a special protocol for sport exempting it from the freedom of movement provisions of the treaty seem to be somewhat remote, will my noble friend look kindly at other measures that could tackle some of the main problems facing our domestic game, the most important of which is the ever-widening gap between the rich and the poor? Further, does my noble friend agree that proposals from the British football authorities to limit the number of players from outside the European economic area playing for any one team are certainly worth supporting? In that context, will the Government look rather more critically at the applications for work permits from players outside the EEA, in view of the very strong evidence that attempts by unscrupulous agents to exploit the situation are damaging the prospects for young players trying to make a name for themselves and, indeed, are affecting the viability of the England national team?

My Lords, I have to admit that my noble friend has a point about the difficulty of obtaining an additional protocol to the Treaty of Rome. He is also right in thinking that the employment in this country of players from outside the EEA is not affected by the Treaty of Rome and that, therefore, from a European point of view, there is no reason why there should not be the kind of provision to which he referred.

As to the view that the Department for Education and Employment might take, I believe that the Minister concerned forms her views on advice as to what is proper and legal. I am sure that she will take into account the views of my noble friend.

My Lords, is it not the case that foreign football players like Zola, Vialli, Leboeuf and Overmars have not only entertained millions of people but also contributed to raising the standard of the game in this country? Indeed, by their example, they have been an inspiration to tens of thousands of young people. Surely we can no more resist this trend than we can resist restaurants run by Marco Pierre White, or executives from Commerzbank in the City of London? Will the Government please continue to resist the dark forces of conservatism and reject this backward-looking, nationalistic, insular, xenophobic and thoroughly outdated approach?

My Lords, if I say things like that from this Dispatch Box I get torn apart by the Eurosceptics—and that is all I am allowed to say in that respect. As I understand it, Marco Pierre White comes from Yorkshire. Therefore, I do not think that he is a particularly good example to put forward. However, in essence, I agree with much of what the noble Lord said. It is true that the free movement of labour is an important provision of the Treaty of Rome: it widens our horizons in football, in cooking and, indeed, in many other areas. It would be a sad day if we were to have too many exemptions from it.

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister clearly confirm that it is undesirable to seek this exemption from the provisions of the Treaty of Rome and that the problems to which my noble friend referred earlier largely stem from the arrogance of UEFA? If the latter had been prepared to hold sensible discussions, there need never have been a case at the European Court of Justice nor, indeed, a Bosnian ruling.

My Lords, from this Dispatch Box I am not in any position to attribute blame for the Bosman case being brought, any more than I am in a position to comment on the legality of the matter. Certainly, the football organisations in this country have expressed some concerns about the difficulty experienced by young footballers of UK origin in finding places in UK teams because of the number of foreign footballers who come into the game. Some protection is provided for those players under the age of 24, which is, perhaps, the right way forward. However, I have not said that the Government will take action; I simply said that we will listen to what football organisations in this country have to say before deciding what to do.

My Lords, given the vast amounts of money that are generated by the football entertainment industry, does not the Minister agree that we should encourage the football industry to pump as much money as possible into the development of talent in this country? If it does not do that, we have only ourselves to blame if we do not produce players of a sufficiently high quality and then have to buy them in from other countries.

My Lords, it is certainly true that the football organisations undertake to devote only 5 per cent of their earnings from broadcasting to the wider benefit of the sport. That contrasts badly with the position vis-à-vis cricket, and particularly tennis where all of the surpluses from Wimbledon are ploughed into the Lawn Tennis Association. However, this is not a matter on which the Government can lay down laws. Football is not a nationalised industry.

My Lords, knowing my noble friend's keen interest in sport, I am sure that he will reflect on the comments of the progressive forces in the House and not just on those made by noble Lords who are pro-European on occasion and anti-European on all other occasions. I know that my noble friend agrees that a problem arises when some Premier League sides field 11 foreign players and others field seven. Even some First Division teams field seven foreign players. That restricts the number of English players at top level. Will my noble friend treat this as a matter of urgency and see what can be done about this grave situation?

My Lords, certainly we are not delaying on this matter. We are listening to the views of football organisations and UK sports bodies on the proposal to exempt sport from the free movement of labour provisions. We shall not delay our consideration of that. My understanding is that there is no formal proposal on the table and that the French Minister of Sport proposes to take the matter forward during the French presidency. No doubt we shall be asked for our views in due course. At the moment, all we have had is a questionnaire from the French Embassy, to which we have responded.

My Lords, given the views that the noble Lord has already expressed, does he agree with me that the notion that the EU Commission, or any derogated power, could usefully intervene in what is essentially a matter for football authorities is manifestly absurd?

My Lords, I do not know that the European Commission proposes to intervene. I have already said that my view is that football is not a nationalised industry and that the Government should show restraint in seeking to intervene in the way football authorities manage their business.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, we shall next be reviewing the level of benefits, including the state retirement pension, in the autumn to take effect from April 2001. Based on the forecast rate of inflation the basic pension will rise by about £2 a week for a single pensioner and by at least £3 a week for a pensioner couple.

My Lords, I remind the Minister that in 1980 the then Conservative government did away with the earnings rule as a method of assessing increases in state pensions. That proved a severe blow to pensioners. For instance, up to the year 1999–2000 a single pensioner would have lost £28.30 on the basic pension and a married couple £42.60. Is it not time that we gave back a bit of dignity to our pensioners? Does my noble friend appreciate that that will not be achieved by means-tested benefits or a measly 75p?

My Lords, as my noble friend and noble Lords will know well, the difficulty with the earnings link is that the provision would go to everyone. The Government face the following choice: were the earnings link to be restored, a pensioner couple over 75 would receive about £5 extra a week; if, however, we targeted help through the minimum income guarantee—which is what we are doing—a poorer pensioner couple over 75 would receive £18 a week. That is the choice: £5 for all couples over 75 or £18 for the poorest. Given my beliefs and commitments, I know which measure is most necessary to address the poverty of our older people.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we are dodging the issue? If one wants to consider the poorest people, the interesting figure is the cost of providing state pensions for the higher rate taxpayers—the better off in this country—which is something in the region of £7 billion per year. Meanwhile, we have a situation where the state pension for non-taxpayers is clearly inadequate on any basis. Is it not time that we looked at this fundamental problem, which has existed under both parties for a long time?

My Lords, I believe that the implication of the noble Lord's question is that state pensions should be means tested along with MIG. That is not the position of the Government. We are very clear that the state pension should remain a universal pension and a building block for the prosperity of our older people.

My Lords, with the benefit of hindsight, does the noble Baroness agree that, rather than providing a £50 addition to the fuel allowance for all pensioners, it would have been wiser to increase the basic pension by, let us say, £1.25 a week beyond the £75 provided last October?

My Lords, it is certainly the case that the winter fuel payment goes to all pensioner households. This autumn it will average £150 year; £3 a week. I am sure your Lordships will accept that the reason the Chancellor went for, so to speak, a hypothecated sum associated with winter fuel is that we know that pensioners need more heat; we know that they spend more time in their homes; we know that their homes are more poorly insulated; and the noble Lord will know from the questions put to me by his noble friend Lord Russell that there are some 30,000 additional winter deaths of pensioners due to hypothermia over the course of the winter. For those under 65, there are 8,000 additional deaths. So pensioners need extra help with their heating. It seems appropriate to target the money in this way, given what we know about pensioner hypothermia.

Will the Government give an undertaking that there will be no further cuts in the employers' contribution to the National Insurance Fund until the basic state pension has been brought up to at least the level of the minimum income guarantee?

No, my Lords.

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us much appreciate her constant efforts to explain the Government's social policy and to keep us fully informed of its cost and other implications? But, looking beyond Parliament to the reactions of pensioners outside, will she, as opportunity arises, remind her colleagues more directly responsible for deciding the Government's priorities of the instructive subtlety of Oscar Wilde's self-mockery after the first night of one of his plays when he said:

"My play was a great success but the audience a failure"?

My Lords, I accept the reproach of my noble friend that the Government so far have not been able successfully to persuade pensioners of the purpose and effectiveness of the Government's strategy. We know that, as a result of the increase in winter fuel allowance, pensioner families will be receiving an extra £3 a week for those over 75 and an extra £2 a week for their television licences. That £5 is equivalent to the earnings link rise. In addition, the poorest pensioners will receive another £10 to £20 on top. We have not only a good story to tell but a decent and honourable one, which mixes universal and targeted benefits in ways that address real need. I accept the reproach of my noble friend that, if we fail to persuade pensioners of that. we must make sure that our story is communicated more accurately and effectively.

My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is there any truth in the rumours being spun in the newspapers recently that Gordon Brown now believes that it was a mistake to increase the winter payment and to introduce free television licences and so on, and that it would have been far better to increase the weekly pension? Is he going to change his mind? Is he going to go for an increase in the weekly pension and abolish these one off payments?

My Lords, obviously the noble Lord knows more about the Chancellor's state of mind than I do. Certainly I have no reason either to challenge or accept his assertions today. The Chancellor will determine what he proposes to do in the pre-Budget statement in the autumn.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, there have been no talks between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Republic of Cyprus with regard to the withdrawal of British sovereign base areas in Cyprus, nor do we have any intention to hold such talks. The sovereign base areas are British sovereign territory, as recognised by the 1960 Treaty of Establishment of the Republic of Cyprus between the United Kingdom, Greece, Turkey and the Republic of Cyprus.

My Lords, I am very glad to hear the Minister's reply because there have been strong rumours that talks have taken place. Can the noble Baroness confirm unequivocally—I believe that she will have no difficulty in so doing—the importance of the sovereign base areas to all British interests in the Near and Middle East?

My Lords, I am happy to confirm what the noble Lord has said. As the noble Lord knows, the SBAs are military bases. They remain key, strategic assets in a troubled region; their logistic benefit as a forward mounting base was demonstrated during the Gulf War; and they provide valuable training facilities. I am happy to confirm everything that the noble Lord said.

My Lords, can the Minister explain how Cypriot negotiations for membership of the European Union fit in with the continuing use of the sovereign bases? If Cyprus is to join the European Union among the first group—which will require negotiations also with Turkey—will that in any way alter the status of those bases? Or is that the subject of an entirely different set of discussions?

My Lords, as the noble Lord said, it is an entirely different set of discussions. None of the countries has raised the issue of our bases; they remain British territory. They do not in any way impinge on the negotiations.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, each year the Department of Health makes discretionary grants to support activities to help people with physical disabilities and sensory impairments, which this year totalled £2 million. Voluntary organisations submit applications, which are considered on merit as funds are limited. The Disability Information Trust has received grants for many years. This year the trust submitted three project applications: one, jointly with the Disabled Living Foundation, attracted funding of £20,000; the other two were unsuccessful.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that somewhat disappointing reply. I must declare an interest: until two years ago I was chairman of this trust based at the Mary Marlborough Lodge in Oxford. Does the Minister accept that this charity has for many years, with core funding from the Department of Health, produced invaluable publications which have been widely commended by disabled people and by those who care for them? Does he further accept that the withdrawal of core funding of some £80,000 will inevitably result in the winding-up of this trust, which provides a valuable service, and in rendering redundant its three dedicated staff?

My Lords, I acknowledge the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, in the trust and the value that the department places on its work in the past. The formula for reducing the payment on a tapering basis over the past three years was decided in 1996. This year the applications were rejected, generally, because of the high level of demand on our cash-limited funds and because there are several existing Section 64 grants to organisations which provide information about disability equipment. I agree with the noble Lord that the publications from the trust have been informative and well appreciated. However, other organisations have made similar applications to those of the trust.

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that that was an incredible response? Is he aware that, in less than two hours' time, the Audit Commission is coming to the All-Party Disablement Group to explain the report on the disastrous state of equipment for disabled people in Britain? The Disability Information Trust reports on disability equipment.

This is the very last time that we should be cutting finance for trusts of this kind. With the development of the Disability Discrimination Act, the implementation of that Act and the complexity of the law which disabled people and the public need to understand, the Government should be increasing information about disability rather than reducing it. Will the Government think again?

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that comment and I am well aware, as are noble Lords in the Chamber today, how concerned he is about the issue of contributions to the disabled. The Audit Commission report's findings confirm that these services are critically important to disabled and older people. We agree that there needs to be improvement and there also needs to be a higher profile.

My Lords, the noble Lord has already referred to the Audit Commission's rather damning report referring to wasted money and lack of management structures. In the light of that, can the noble Lord assure us that more funding will be given to other organisations which are covering the work done by the trust and that, if they are not, they will ensure that the trust receives more fundings? There is quite clearly an absolute lack of proper information here and most disability organisations spend most of their time giving out information.

My Lords, the noble Lord refers to the Audit Commission report. I can say that the Government are already taking a wide range of actions to increase standards as a result of that report. Extra money is available through specific fundings such as partnerships and prevention initiatives. We recently announced a £4 million investment in 2001–02 to modernise hearing aids. We funded the Disabled Living Centres Council to produce good practice guidance on provision of community equipment services. We have distributed the guidance widely in the National Health Service and social services. The Government's record in this area is very good. Indeed, by the end of their term of office they will have proved that they have successfully aided the position of those who unfortunately are in disablement positions.

My Lords, irrespective of the value of this charity, of which I am well aware, does the Minister agree with me that it is one thing for government departments to give project grants for individual items that charities undertake and it is quite another thing for them to give core grants to continue their operations in a general way, employing staff and such like? In those situations, does not the Minister agree that the charity in fact ceases to be a charity and becomes an organ of the state?

My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Walton, would want me to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, on that issue but I agree with the general thrust of what he had to say. At the time of the Disablement Information Trust becoming a charity in 1991 less work was being done in the field of information about disability and disability equipment. In recent years more organisations have become active in this area. All applications from voluntary organisations wishing to further this work must be considered on equal merits. Unfortunately, that is where the Disability Information Trust falls at the moment.

My Lords, the Minister has frequently used the word "we" when talking about the allocation of grants. Could he tell us who "we" are?

My Lords, I thank the noble Countess for correcting me in that area. I can only say that my explanation of "we" is that it is the Government and the Department of Health on this occasion.

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the service provided by the Disability Information Trust is not commercially economic—not remotely so—and that it must depend on grant funding of some nature if it is to survive? Does he not consider that this is a worthy use for taxpayers' money and will he not undertake today to reconsider his department's decision?

My Lords, the noble Earl refers to the Disability Information Trust surviving only if it has core funding. The decision to taper off core funding was made in 1996 under the then Secretary of State and we are now coming to a point where the core funding has indeed tapered off. It is necessary for the Disability Information Trust to consider its future which lies either on the basis of being able to apply successfully in the future for funding or, perhaps, consider other alternatives such as a merger, which might be a possibility for the future.

My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lady Symons will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement which is being made in another place on defence procurement. If the Report stage of the Electronic Communications Bill proceeds beyond 3.30 p.m., the Statement will be taken after conclusion of that Report stage. If the Report stage ends before 3.30 p.m., the Statement will be taken after the two Northern Ireland orders.

My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Tebbit set down for tomorrow shall be limited to five hours.—(Baroness Jay of Paddington.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That Standing Order 72 (Affirmative Instruments) be dispensed with to enable the Motions to approve the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 and the draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) (No. 2) Order 2000 to be taken today, notwithstanding that no report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on the draft orders has been laid before the House.—(Baroness Jay of Paddington.)

My Lords, it is not unusual for the Leader of the House to seek to move the Motion temporarily suspending Standing Order 72. However, this is normally done in emergency situations or where matters are evolving very, very quickly. One can well understand why the Government wish to proceed with the draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) (No. 2) Order for that very purpose. However, that cannot be so of the flags order. The flags order, temporarily anyway, transfers to the Secretary of State what is a transferred matter: the control of the flying of flags, designs and so forth. I ask the noble Baroness to explain to me why she is asking us to abandon Standing Order 72 for the purpose of that order.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding the House that these matters, particularly those relating to Northern Ireland, have been taken in this form and that the House has agreed to this procedure. On the question of the two orders before the House, my understanding is that both are regarded as equally important and that both have to go to meetings of the Privy Council tomorrow. It was therefore thought relevant that this procedure should be adopted and it has been agreed by the usual channels.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 6, line 3, at end insert—

("( ) Before making any regulations by virtue of section 2(3)(a) or (b) the Secretary of State shall consult—

(a) such persons appearing to him to be likely to be affected by those regulations, and

(b) such persons appearing to him to be representative of persons likely to be so affected,

as he thinks fit.")

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his further clarification regarding consistency with the Data Protection Act in relation to Clause 4. I thank the noble Lord for his explanation of Amendment No. 3 and confirm our support, as clearly stated during our debate in Grand Committee, for the need for consultation on a broad scale. As I stated in Grand Committee, the credibility of any regulatory scheme depends upon the degree of respect that it has among the major practitioners and consumers in that industry. We are concerned here with a new, nascent industry and it is therefore crucial that the Government listen to and respect those involved with its evolution to ensure that its development will not be compromised or impeded in any way by unnecessary or burdensome regulation.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the concern I raised on the Data Protection Act and, in particular, for his detailed statement which, when set out in Hansard, will be very useful for future interpretation of the Bill.

My Lords, perhaps I may raise one or two questions on the wording of the amendment. I am concerned that the word "shall" in conjunction with paragraph (a) means that the Secretary of State is obliged to consult everyone who might be affected by those regulations, which is likely to be quite a large number of people. That is particularly so when it is taken with the word "and" at the end of paragraph (a). He not only has to consult those people but also people appearing to him to be representative of them. I am concerned that there is not the usual combination of "may" and "or", which are the words I would have expected there, and that the drafting will leave the Secretary of State with a very large task on his hands and one on which he may well be challenged on suspicion of incompleteness.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, and the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, for their support, both for the amendment and for the statement which I was able to make about the Data Protection Act. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his tender concern for the sensibilities and duties of the Secretary of State. If there were the kind of challenge to which he referred, the Secretary of State could respond by saying, in terms of the final three words of the amendment, that he did not think fit to go any further in the consultation than he had done. I think that is a let out. It is an interesting point. We frequently use "shall" and "and" where some people think that we should use "may" and "or"; and more frequently the other way round.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 8 [Power to modify legislation]:

moved Amendment No. 4:

Page 9, line 15, at end insert—

("( ) The Secretary of State shall maintain at a specified office and a specified site on the internet a list of all orders made under this section.").

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for giving me the opportunity to explain the Government's plans for publicising the use of Clause 8.

First, I remind the House that my honourable friend Patricia Hewitt has deposited in the House Library a memorandum, prepared by the Cabinet Office's Central IT Unit, giving more detail—indeed, a great deal more detail—on how we will use this power. The Cabinet Office already publishes six-monthly reports, not only to Parliament but also on the web, on our progress towards information age government. That report is likely to be the appropriate vehicle for reporting on progress in using Clause 8 and, together with individual departments' targeted publicity on legislative changes, would achieve the objective of the noble Lord's amendment.

The Government have already announced their intention to use Clause 8 to make changes to the Companies Act and to facilitate electronic conveyancing. We will shortly be publishing further details on our priorities for using Clause 8.I should add that whether or not Clause 8 has been used in a particular area will not be the only indication of whether electronic means are permitted. Where the only requirement is for a "signature", Clause 7, which will come into force two months after Royal Assent, will put it beyond doubt that electronic signatures are admissible. In some cases, existing legislation may already allow electronic means. Alternatively, the use of electronic means may be authorised or facilitated by new primary legislation or by secondary legislation made under powers conferred by existing primary legislation.

Although Clause 8 can apply to future legislation, made after this Bill becomes law, I expect that future legislation will often provide for electronic means. So the important thing will be for people to check an up-to-date copy of the relevant legislation, possibly as amended by what will be the Electronic Communications Act, rather than to know whether or not Clause 8 has been applied in a particular case.

In any case, secondary legislation is already available on a website maintained by Her Majesty's Stationery Office (www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk) which enables details of any future orders made under Clause 8 to be readily found. I understand that this has been checked within the past 24 hours and that it is necessary only to access that website and, to use the "natural language" search so as to find, for example, statutory instruments made under Section 8 of what will be the Electronic Communications Act 2000. I hope that this clarification will persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

My Lords, I preferred my own simpler and more straightforward way of going about this; nevertheless I shall give in on the argument and accept that the Government will have their way. I hope that in this matter electronic government is rather more effective than it has been in my request for responses to my Written Questions by e-mail. I still cannot consistently obtain them in that form some three years after making my initial request.

Although I share the Minister's hopes that this will form an effective part of electronic government, we shall have to wait and see. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 5:

After Clause 8, insert the following new clause—

VALIDATION OF ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE

(" .An order under section 8 may not require that an electronic signature may only be validated by a cryptography service provider registered under the provisions of Part I of this Act; nor may any government department or agency make any such stipulation in any contract or document.").

My Lords, I rise in support of my noble friend Lord Lucas to say only that this matter was discussed at great length in Committee. I feel that it is important that the Minister should clarify what will happen when companies wish to register to set up and do business in this country. Will they be burdened with the extra costs and time needed to reregister each time they establish operations in the United Kingdom? Without clarification on this point, we shall put in place a hindrance as regards the development of e-commerce. That would go against the Government's declaration that the UK is the best place in the world as regards the promotion of e-commerce.

My Lords, I am in some difficulty because, in referring back to Amendment No. 2, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, neglected to speak to his Amendment No. 5. For that reason, I shall need to return to briefing notes on Amendment No. 2 which I had already discarded when it was not moved. I am, however, happy to do that. But before I do so, perhaps I may say a few words about the question of whether Clause 7 is too restrictive, which was debated at some length in Grand Committee. I should like to make some general remarks about how the Bill deals with electronic signatures.

Various organisations have asked the Government to consider whether Clause 7 is drafted too restrictively and could have the effect of excluding certain certificates and certain kinds of signature from admissibility. The first point to make—this is relevant to both Amendments Nos. 2 and 5—is that Clause 7 is not intended to prevent anything being admissible in evidence. In the Government's view, it does not have that effect.

The Government's intention is that the clause should apply to a wide category of electronic things so that the courts are able to receive evidence of them and give that evidence the weight it should properly bear. The clause states what is meant by an electronic signature and its certification. Each of these terms is given a pretty wide meaning. The meaning given to the term "electronic signature" is along the same lines as that given in the European Community's Electronic Signatures Directive; it is not identical, but the Bill's definition is, if anything, wider.

The meaning given for "certify" and, by implication, "certification" is wider than is the definition of "certificate" in the directive. Noble Lords will be aware that Clause 7(3) has already been amended in another place to widen the concept of certification in the Bill. In particular, a certificate does not have to be seen in isolation. In considering whether the subject matter of a certificate is a valid means of establishing authenticity or integrity—for example, when a witness is required to confirm an electronic signature—other factors may be considered as well.

The Government have been asked whether the only certificates which are admissible are those which say, for example, "I confirm that this signature belongs to Andrew McIntosh", or "I confirm that this means of producing signatures is a valid means of establishing the authenticity of the communication". The answer is "No". Subsection (3) of Clause 7 is so drafted that it makes admissible a statement which needs to be added to other evidence to establish authenticity or integrity. For example, the signature service provider might make a general statement in his literature that certificates bearing his logo were a valid means of establishing authenticity.

In drafting Clause 7, the Government have aimed at being as inclusive as possible. We have not invented the terms "electronic signature" or "certification"; these terms were already in use within the industry. The Government's approach has been to avoid focusing too much on the labels "signature" or "certificate". It is immaterial what the parties call the thing what is important is to look at the function it performs. The functions described in Clause 7 are very wide indeed.

Perhaps I may now return to the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, in relation to Amendment No. 2, which states:

"The Secretary of State may make provision for the recognition of approvals granted under compatible registration procedures in other jurisdictions where he has agreed to recognise such procedures".

The point that we seek to make here is that we do not think that, at this stage, bilateral recognition is the right way to move forward. Clearly, advances in electronic signatures and certification are taking place all over the world. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned the United States, but we must also consider the European Union and many other regions which are advancing in this area—although we rather think that we are ahead of the game.

Article 7 of the EU directive contemplates three ways in which the certificates from outside the Union may he recognised. Perhaps I may take certificates from outside the Union as exemplars of the international trade consequences of what we are discussing. The first is by a provider in a third country being accredited by a scheme in a member state. The second is by an EU provider guaranteeing the quality of the certificate from a third country provider. The third is through bilateral or EU-level arrangements with third countries. It is the third, the bilateral proposal that was made in Amendment No. 2.

We do not believe that the bilateral approach will be the most common route. We believe that the first and second routes will be the most common, and that this is a market where industry and international standards bodies are increasingly driving the process. There was a debate about UNCITRAL in Grand Committee.

Overseas providers can choose whether or not to seek UK approval. There is nothing to stop them doing so if they believe that UK approval will give them higher status in the market-place. Equally, if they believe that overseas approval gives them the status that they need, there is nothing to stop them trading in the U K on that basis. Since overseas providers will have a choice, we are not imposing a burden on them or on us. We are not requiring anyone to go in for approval procedures which are in advance of their particular needs. What we are doing is providing the basic requirement of all of these provisions; namely, that in law there is a possibility of the recognition, if the courts agree it, of an electronic signature and certification.

This is an occasion where I believe that we are giving the lead in encouraging the market for electronic communications to grow without being over-prescriptive. I fear that the amendments would indeed be over-prescriptive.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, which I shall read with interest. For the present, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement on defence procurement that has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Madam Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on two significant defence procurement decisions. I would like to announce our decision on a new beyond visual range air-to-air missile to arm the Eurofighter, and on delivering, the major enhancements to our strategic airlift capability promised in the Strategic Defence Review

"This Government are committed to the modernisation of our Armed Forces. We are determined to deliver improvements in defence capability, to underpin long-term security and to ensure that Britain can act as a real force for good in the world. Our Armed Forces deserve the best equipment. We are committed to ensuring that they have the best equipment. But we are also committed to doing this in a way which is cost-effective and the best value for taxpayers' money. Smart procurement means making every pound count.

"We are also aware of the wider context. The procurement package we have selected is clear evidence for our partners on both sides of the Atlantic of our strong commitment to enhance European defence capabilities. NATO's effectiveness depends on continuing technological improvement and on equitable burden sharing. The European Defence Initiative lies at the heart of this, for the good of Europe, the transatlantic alliance and the international community as a whole.

"The beyond visual range air-to-air missile is a vital component of the Eurofighter's ability to dominate the skies. It promises to be a highly accurate, highly manoeuvrable missile that will significantly improve Eurofighter's 'no-escape' zone, and hence will ensure that this world-class aircraft can combat all projected air threats. It will make a major contribution to the air superiority requirements of the United Kingdom and coalition partners, including NATO operations. Our priority is to sustain Eurofighter's superior capability as far as possible into its service life, which will extend well towards the middle of the century. We have to secure the highest performance, at best overall value for the taxpayer

"We have had the advantage of a strong competition with high-quality bids from Matra BAe Dynamics and Raytheon Systems Limited. The competition has been keenly fought, and many honourable Members have written to me and to other Ministers.

"After a thorough, indeed exhaustive, process we have concluded that the Meteor missile offered by Matra BAe Dynamics and its consortium is likely to best meet our needs over the life of the Eurofighter aircraft. The overall performance promised by Meteor will ensure that Eurofighter is equipped with the best weapon possible and will deliver the air superiority that is central to success in military operations.

"Meteor is a collaborative venture with Germany, Italy, Spain—our Eurofighter partners—France and, we hope, Sweden. We now plan to conclude a memorandum of understanding with those European partners by the end of the year, formally committing us all to this programme. Subject also to agreement of satisfactory terms and conditions with Matra BAE Dynamics, we will award a contract as soon as possible.

"This will be a Smart contract. Tightly defined breakpoints in the contract will be linked to flight tests and other demonstrable achievements. These will focus on, first, the ram-jet motor, then guidance systems, and finally data-links and electronic counter-measures. Specific dates will be attached to each.

"These breakpoints will be auditable and capable of external independent evaluation. If these are not delivered, the contract will be terminated by the partner nations which will recover all development costs from the contractor.

"Meteor is expected to enter service with the RAF in the latter half of this decade. Meanwhile, we intend to buy more of the currently highly capable advanced medium-range air-to-air missile, produced by Raytheon, to equip Eurofighter when it first comes into service.

"Our decision will give the RAF the most advanced air-to-air missile in the world. It will be welcome to our European partners. It will also be welcomed by our US allies as a clear indication of our commitment to a strong defence capability, available for all operations in which the United Kingdom might be involved.

"Industry in the United Kingdom will also welcome this decision. Matra BAe estimates that it will create or sustain some 1,200 jobs in the UK, including at Stevenage, Bristol and Stanmore. Many of these will be high-quality jobs in new technology, and in system and software design. The United Kingdom will lead this major project.

"I turn now to our strategic airlift requirements. Improving the mobility and deployability of our forces was a key theme of the Strategic Defence Review. Events in the Balkans and, more recently, Mozambique and Sierra Leone, have underlined the high priority of increasing our strategic airlift capability. Both NATO's Defence Capabilities Initiative, and the Headline Goal adopted at the Helsinki European Council, identify this capability as one in which Europeans need to make particular improvements.

"We have explored a number of possible avenues to meet our immediate needs as well as the longer-term requirement. After careful consideration, we have determined that the best short to medium-term solution is a lease of four C-17 Globemaster aircraft from the Boeing company. They will begin the first of several years of service with the RAF from the middle of next year. These flexible, capable aircraft will deliver vital, early support to our new Joint Rapid Reaction Forces. They will also make a crucial contribution to improving the aircraft capabilities available for NATO and European operations and to inter-operability with the United States.

"Beyond this short-term lease, we have now decided that our heavy lift needs from the latter part of this decade onwards would be best met by the A400M aircraft from Airbus Military Company.

"This promises to be a superb aircraft—a new design that is specifically tailored to meet our military requirement. Moreover, the A400M should offer an extremely flexible capability, covering both the tactical and strategic roles. It offers scope for a multi-national support package and substantial through-life cost savings.

"At this point, our commitment to A400M is necessarily conditional, in that it is based on assumptions that are dependent both on our potential partners and on Airbus—on their commitments to sufficient numbers of aircraft at launch and the establishment of a viable programme.

"We hope that we can sign a contract for the A400M urgently but this must be based on realistic figures for purchase. All countries must balance the size of firm commitments against other priorities for defence equipment. The United Kingdom will order 25 aircraft in the A400M initial launch. This is sufficient to build a viable programme, while safeguarding our industrial interests. We look forward to other partners following our lead so together we may confirm the launch order as soon as possible.

"But affordability will also rest on confirmation of unit prices at the level offered by Airbus, commitment to the in-service date we require and satisfactory negotiation of commercial terms and conditions. Programme launch and contract placement must also be achieved within a reasonable timeframe.

"This is a Smart process too. We shall hold European industry to its promises.

"If Airbus cannot offer us and our partners an affordable and manageable programme on this basis, we shall he able to meet our military requirement and protect the taxpayers' interests by purchasing a fleet of Boeing C-17 aircraft as an alternative.

"But we do look forward to success in this exciting and innovative programme.

"A400M will offer great benefits to the United Kingdom. BAe Systems expects the programme to create directly 3,400 long-term, high-skill, high-wage jobs—in particular at its sites at Filton, Broughton and Prestwick—with indirect employment taking this figure to over 10,000.

"Our industry will be at the forefront of developments in the aircraft's new technology, including a carbon composite and metallic hybrid wing and a new propulsion system. The project will strengthen the European aerospace industry and will complement the world-leading wing capabilities of British industry that we support through the major investment we have recently announced for the development of the A3XX.

"A vital and technologically innovative element of the A400M will be its engines. Airbus Military as prime contractor will be responsible for selecting the best power plant so that the aircraft will meet its commitments to the partner nations on performance and price. However, we shall make sure that in its decision Airbus Military takes full account of the merits of the likely proposal from Rolls-Royce and the undeniable quality of its products.

"These procurement decisions are of great importance to our Armed Forces and our defence capability for several decades to come. They deliver on our promises in the Strategic Defence Review; they make a significant contribution to Europe's defence capabilities; and they are good news for British industry and jobs.

"I commend them to the House".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness most warmly for repeating the Statement by her right honourable friend, which will be very much welcomed by your Lordships. I only hope that by now her right honourable friend has released the journalists who have been locked in an office unable, without their telephones, to ring their bookmakers since 2.45.

We must give our warmest congratulations to British Aerospace on the decision that has been made. It is, however, necessary to ask the Government what took them so long. This suggests a degree of in-fighting among various departments. The decision will be welcomed universally by those parts of the Armed Forces which will operate the equipment. But I hope that today's decision does not turn into tomorrow's problem. Meteor is in the design stage and is st:ill concept that has not been tested or proved. That is recognised by the short-term approval of the Raytheon BVRAAM. Is the Secretary of State buying an unproven missile at twice the cost for good European reasons? Unlike the American missile, this is untried technology.

I should be grateful if the Minister could put on record the cost and in-service date of the Meteor missile. What considerations other than cost were taken into consideration in the decision? What guarantees are there that other European countries will commit themselves? If they do not back it, or the project is unsustainable for any reason, will the United Kingdom be left without a beyond visual range missile for the Eurofighter? What is the fallback situation? If the in-service date is unsatisfactory what will the Government do? Having said that, we welcome the decision.

With regard to heavy lift capability, will the Government put on record the number of C-17s that they intend eventually to lease, and the cost? Is there an option to buy these aircraft? Most important of all, what is the effect of the decision to lease the C-17s on the production of the A400M? Surely, when crews become used to C-17s they will be reluctant to change even to a more advanced aircraft. It may be a wrong decision to have three different heavy lift aircraft in commission, or will the C-130Js be retired early? With three systems, one needs back-up, spares and everything else, which inevitably lead to an increase m the cost and complication of the whole exercise. What is the future of the A400M? It cannot be good; it looks like another Rover, ro-ro ferry or Ford.

How committed are other countries to heavy lift aircraft, and what is the critical mass in terms of numbers? The possible plan that has been quoted involves 195. However, that puts the United Kingdom's requirement at 45. The Secretary of State has announced today the figure of 25. Is 195 an accurate figure? What is the breakeven point for the A400M? Even on the basis of 195, there appears to be a reduction in the number of orders from Germany and Italy in particular. Do we have assurances from those countries and others that they wish to proceed with the A400M? The United States is to replace the C-130Js at the end of this decade. Should not European and American strategic transport requirements be harmonised to allow large production runs, which appear to have a major advantage?

Finally, I should like to raise one matter which is separate from the subject that we are considering. What are the implications of this decision for future tanker aircraft which must have an involvement? Having said that, we very much welcome the Statement and the decision.

My Lords, we on these Benches support the Meteor programme and the development of the A400M with the short-term use of the C-17. However, I should like to ask a number of questions. First, as the Meteor system is at the moment only at the development stage it may experience the problems that other weapons system commissioned by the armed services have suffered in the past. I hope that the Minister will report to the House, not necessarily in the form of a Statement, on how those tests are developing over the coming few years.

Although we support the use of the C-17 as a short-term interim measure, our concern is that those aircraft will be on lease. How will that affect their operating capabilities in war zones? Shall we be able to use the C-17 in areas of conflict? Will the Government also make the C-17 and the A400M, when it comes online, available to the United Nations? During debate on the Statement yesterday, we on these Benches raised the issue that some UN forces were unable to reach Sierra Leone with their equipment because they lacked the heavy-lift capability and that it was not being supplied by other members of the United Nations. I hope that the Government will indicate that the aircraft will be available for UN operations.

Finally, according to the Statement, the development of the A400M is seen to be complementary to the development of the A3XX and the dependent large number of jobs. If, due to the cost constraints which may arise from the full price of the development of the aircraft, the A400M is cancelled, what effect will that have on the development of the A3XX?

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for what I believe on this occasion has been a genuinely warm welcome of my right honourable friend's Statement. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, that your Lordships' House in general will welcome the Statement, in particular as regards heavy airlift. Seven noble colleagues raised that issue in the debate on defence last Friday. I hope that they, too, will be happy with the outcome.

There was no infighting between government departments on these decisions. They were closely fought competitions. They are complex projects. We are talking about three projects. Whereas the Meteor project—the beyond visual range missile project—stands on its own, the strategic airlift project was divided into a short-term need and a longer-term need. Identifying the C-17 as covering the short-term need and the A400M as the longer-term need was always a possibility.

Yes, the noble Lords, Lord Burnham and Lord Redesdale, are right: Meteor is at the design stage. But Her Majesty's Government believe that Meteor is the best of the tenders put forward in terms of the overall lifetime of the Eurofighter. It will arm the RAF with a missile which will make a major contribution to the air superiority requirements of the United Kingdom and our coalition partners.

I was asked about the cost. I cannot give detailed costings because of the commercial in-confidence rules. But I can tell your Lordships that the overall costs of the Meteor project are approximately £1 billion. Some noble Lords have expressed recently some worries in your Lordships' House about the MoD always going for the cheapest option. It is worth saying that we have looked carefully at capability, not cost. Value for money is not synonymous with accepting the cheapest tender. I think that your Lordships will see this decision as very strong evidence of that aim at work. As I said when making the Statement, there will be break points in this contract. I stress to your Lordships that the break points will be capable of audit and external independent evaluation. That is an important point. We focused in particular on the ram-jet motor on the guidance systems and on the datalinks electronic counter measures. So we have a checking mechanism in place which I hope meets the natural concerns that there are bound to be about the project still being at a developmental stage.

I stress to your Lordships that if the missiles are not developed, the partner nations will cover all development costs from the contractor. I hope that noble Lords will see that as a significant advance in the Smart contracts we are now seeking to develop on these issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Burnham, asked what would happen if there were a failure in the project. We would go back to the market to secure the missile system that we need.

The noble Lord then turned his attention to the C-17. There will be four of those aircraft leased over a seven-year period. The total cost over that period will be in the region of £0.5 billion for that element. I do not believe that the RAF will be reluctant to make the change to this aircraft. I believe that the RAF is full of extraordinarily skilled pilots who will relish the opportunity to fly what we believe will be an extraordinarily capable aircraft. I stress to the noble Lord that we shall not have three aircraft in operation together for very long because we shall be finishing the seven-year lease on the C-17s as we bring in the A400Ms. We shall have the C-130Js which, as the noble Lord knows, have been brought into service as part of our longer-term strategic airlift requirement. At present, noble Lords will know that we have 51 C-130s. Twenty-five or 26 C-130Js are coming in. There will then be 25 A400Ms which have one and a half times the capacity of the C-130 Hercules aircraft.

As regards the A400Ms, the partner countries are Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Belgium. We have identified 25 aircraft as our need. We believe that it is time for complete straightforwardness over this and that partner nations should not be willing to deal in the realms of speculation about what they might do. Without being too conceited, I hope I can say that the United Kingdom has given a lead on this. We hope that the partner nations will now also take the plunge and say what number of these aircraft they require.

The noble Lord asked what number we need. I have heard various figures quoted. I have heard various figures quoted by Airbus Military itself. They vary from 150 to 270 or 280. I suspect that there is a good deal of flexibility in that number as we shall see when our partners start to declare.

The noble Lord also asked about harmonisation. There will be considerable harmonisation if all partner nations take up the challenge and go for the A400M. On the tanker aircraft, it is a somewhat different decision. It is a PH project and we ye still trying to formulate the way in which we shall run that competition.

In answering the questions addressed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, I hope that I have covered the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. The C-17s are on lease. The test was real value for money. It was a leasing decision. It may sound an unusual decision, but noble Lords should recognise that leasing is what occurs in the civil world. There are considerable advantages to leasing aircraft. We are not in the position of having to go to a spot market to try to hire the capability we need because we shall be able to take these aircraft where we want them. They will be ours for the using. We shall not have to try to extract them from wherever they may be with the painful business of explaining why we want them and so on. They will be ours to use. They will be available to the United Nations if appropriate. Indeed, as I believe the Statement implied, had we had them, we would have used them in Mozambique and Sierra Leone. However, we shall have them soon.

My Lords, with regard to the Royal Air Force I believe that the noble Baroness has made the right decision in moving from the Hercules to the Boeing A400. As she said, I am sure that from an operational point of view there will be no problems for the Royal Air Force. First, in relation to heavy-lift, can she give even an approximate figure of how many additional jobs there might be at Prestwick? Secondly, every pilot to whom I have spoken who has had the privilege of flying the Eurofighter says that it is an exceptional aircraft. Does the Minister really mean that it will not be in service until approximately 2008 or 2009, and is that with or without Meteor? Virtually 10 years is a long time to wait until it is put into squadron service, and I am sure that the Royal Air Force would like to have it quicker than that.

No, my Lords. We are expecting to take delivery of the first Eurofighters in the year 2002. The delivery period will take place between 2002 and 2014. In the initial stages it will be armed with the AMRAAM missile. However, during the latter stages of taking delivery of the Eurofighter we shall arm it with the superior capability offered by the Meteor missile system. We hope that that will be towards the end of the decade. The supply of Eurofighters will be built up over that period, reaching a peak after about 2005, when we hope to take delivery of approximately 20 or so a year.

I thank the noble Lord for his support on heavy-lift. He asked specifically about jobs. I have a full breakdown on a number of different job issues. I believe that it may be helpful if I write to the noble Lord with that breakdown. I believe that it is rather invidious to go into detail on where the jobs will be concentrated. However, in relation to heavy airlift, the concentration of jobs is likely to be in the north-west of England and, of course, in Broughton. Therefore, approximately 3,500 jobs in Broughton will be sustained directly by the decision on the A400M. We hope that that will build to approximately 10,000 jobs in the supporting industries which we believe, and which the company tell us, will flourish as a result.

My Lords, perhaps I may congratulate my noble friend for four reasons: first, on ensuring that the Royal Air Force will have adequate transport aircraft, and particularly the heavy-lift which has long been needed and was certainly needed before the last election. I also thank her for ensuring that the Eurofighter will be a highly competitive aircraft. Even though we are talking of enormous cost, will it not also be a great deal cheaper than the F22, its possible competitor? Thirdly, I thank my noble friend for ensuring that Britain retains the highest level of technological capacity in this field. Fourthly, and not least important, does my noble friend accept that the Government deserve congratulation on their approach to procurement? If they had not adopted that approach, the British taxpayer would be paying a great deal more.

My Lords, I am delighted to accept all those splendid bouquets from my noble friend. It is a personal delight to me that we have managed to make these decisions. As your Lordships know, as the Minister for Defence Procurement this issue has been placed particularly on my desk and, before me, that of my noble friend Lord Gilbert, who, of course, contributed very heavily to these decisions.

I agree with my noble friend about the heavy-lift requirements. We have scarcely undertaken an operation in which one or other of your Lordships has not had occasion to remind us that we should make progress on this matter; and quite right, too.

With regard to the Eurofighter, the comparison figures that I have show that it will cost some 60 million dollars per aircraft—that is, approximately £40.9 million—and the F22, some 120 million dollars. I shall have to leave noble Lords to their excellent arithmetic to work out the equivalent in pounds. However, even I can see that the Eurofighter is half the cost of the F22, a point about which we might remind the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. I know that he has concerns on that front.

The procurement decision is enormously important in terms of technical capability and jobs, about which noble Lords opposite were asking. I refer not only to the number of jobs but to their quality and calibre. They are highly technical and well paid jobs, and they should be a source of considerable prosperity to the regions where they will be concentrated.

My Lords, the Minister has produced a considerable shopping list. Some of the figures that she mentioned give us an indication of what we are about to spend. Having made the calculations, inexact as they must be, perhaps I may ask whether she assumes that the overall defence budget of this country and of the Government will be substantially increased as a result of the shopping list that has now been produced. If so, would that have implications for other spending departments of the United Kingdom Government?

No, my Lords. I do not believe that there are any implications for other spending departments in what my noble friend has quite rightly described as a considerable shopping list. Of course, I fully appreciate that in absolute terms the list is expensive. The Meteor comes in at approximately £1 billion over its lifetime; the A400M at £3.5 billion; and the C-17 at £0.5 billion over the seven-year period. That has been well understood.

As I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, the figures have been worked through by those who have responsibility for these matters within the Ministry of Defence. Your Lordships will not be surprised to know that a great deal of interest in them has also been shown throughout Whitehall. Of course it has. It is quite right that the figures are crawled over. They are within the MoD's budget.

Despite one or two noble Lords having expressed doubts last week about our willingness within the MoD to put the needs for these capabilities before everything else, I hope that today's decisions have made it clear to all your Lordships that we have, indeed, put the capability of our Armed Forces first.

My Lords, will my noble friend take note that, unlike in some quarters in this House, what she has said today is welcomed by the Labour Benches? The decision to order Meteor, the A400M and, of course, to recommend Rolls-Royce as the power unit is good news. It keeps us in the forefront of technology and creates many jobs in this country. Therefore, will she please accept our congratulations and pass them on to her right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence? She also knows of my interest in the heavy-lift programme. Perhaps I may ask her whether the A400M is a preferred supply.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for raising those points and, of course, I shall convey his thanks to my right honourable friend. I agree with everything that he said about ensuring that we remain in the forefront of technology. I agree also with his point with regard to jobs. In making these decisions it is important that we look at the competitive edge. We should always try to ensure that we have viable competition for the future. That consideration may not always be terribly clear when one is looking from the outside of a project.

I shall take advice on the specific question that my noble friend asked me. If he will bear with me, I shall write to him on the point that he raised about the preferred supplier and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.

My Lords, with, I am sure, all Members of the House I welcome the content of the Statement, particularly the decision to go ahead with the C-17. The fact that that proposal was trailed in the SDR two years ago and that it has taken so long to reach it is obviously a great shame. Nevertheless, we are there and I am delighted to hear it.

I hope that the Minister will bear in mind that 20 years ago the Royal Air Force had great difficulty with a large number of different types of aircraft in its inventory which, inevitably, had a roll-on cost effect on training and spare supply. I hope that in doing the sums for our future transport requirements the fact that there may be more than one, two or even three types of aircraft in that inventory will be looked into very carefully.

My Lords, I do assure the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, that that point has been taken into consideration. The fact is that a period of overlap exists between releasing the leased C-17s and the incoming A400Ms. I do not believe that it will be very long. I would not expect it to be longer than a year or two. Of course there will be the C130Js, so the lease period is for about seven years. We expect them to see the A440Ms coming into service. The overlap which the noble Lord draws to our attention is something about which we should be very careful, and one would expect his former colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to be very vigilant on this issue. I assure him that they have been, and I am sure that they will continue to be.

As to the length of time it has taken on the C-17s, I stress that although the decisions over the short-term issue over the lease are completely separate, in one sense, to the longer-term issue, they are inevitably linked. It was very important when making these decisions to make sure that the decision was going to be properly cost effective, that we were not going to have decisions that looked as if they were not going to be meshed together, that they were cost-cutting or that there was some other financial deficit in what we were considering. I am sorry that this has taken a longer period than originally expected, but I am delighted that we have made the decision now.

My Lords, I also express relief on the Meteor decision well made. Would the Minister agree with me that the timing of this announcement could not be better, given the Minister's visit to Athens to secure, we hope, the first Eurofighter export order?

I have to tell the noble Viscount that that is completely fortuitous. I would not like any of your Lordships to believe that this decision was taken on the basis of where the next visit of the Minister of Defence Procurement was likely to take place. The noble Viscount is quite right. Not only is this good news in relation to that particular visit, but it is very good news in relation to other countries to which we may wish to sell the aircraft. I hope that by displaying our confidence we will show other countries, by what we do as well as what we say, that we do mean business.

My Lords, I, too, share the great pleasure and satisfaction with this news on procurement. I hope the Minister agrees with me and accepts that the many other concerns being voiced last week, not least by me, were about spending on people, spending on housing, spending on training, exercises and so forth. That is what we were very concerned about as well as the other issue. But this is splendid and I look forward to the Minister doing something about those concerns.

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for reminding us of the importance of spending on people as well as on equipment. I should say to the noble Baroness that it is very important, when we are trying to bring young people into the Armed Forces and trying to persuade those who have already joined to stay, that we do indicate how much we value our Armed Forces by equipping them properly. It is a vital component in ensurng that the Armed Forces, not only are properly valued but feel properly valued. Everything I have heard today from our friends in the Royal Air Force indicates that they are delighted with these decisions and that they—and. I hope others—will take heart that the Government are doing what they can to equip our Armed Forces properly.

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister and the Ministry of Defence on keeping British jobs in mind by making this decision.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for making that point. I think it is very good, particularly at this time, that we have been able to take a decision which is such good news for British jobs. I stress to my noble friend and to others in your Lordships' House, lest there be any misunderstanding, that we have taken these decisions principally for two reasons. One is that they offer a superb capability to our Armed Forces and the second is that they offer very good value for money to the British taxpayer. I am delighted that they have the additional benefit to which my noble friend also referred.

My Lords, are the C-17s new aircraft, or have they been used elsewhere? Following on from that, when will they be received into service?

My Lords, I believe they are new aircraft. I think we would have something to say about it if they were not. I do not know the particular history of the aircraft we are going to take into the RAF. I am pretty sure that they are going to be brand new aircraft. If there is any adjustment I have to make to that I will write to the noble Earl.

We are expecting to take delivery of two of these aircraft next year and two the year after that.

rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this order is made under paragraph 1 (1) of the schedule to the Northern Ireland Act 2000.

The key provisions of the draft order are essentially the following: to provide the Secretary of State with regulation-making powers to regulate the flying of flags on government buildings in Northern Ireland; to ensure that the regulations would be referred in draft to the Northern Ireland Assembly; to provide that the Secretary of State shall consider any report made by the Assembly of the views expressed in the Assembly: to require the Secretary of State to have regard to the Belfast agreement when making regulations and to provide that the regulations are laid in draft before, and approved by, both Houses of Parliament.

Under direct rule, the position was that the Union flag was flown from all government buildings on certain set days. These included most of the days on which the Union flag was flown from government buildings elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but also included some extra days specific only to Northern Ireland, including, for example, St Patrick's Day and 12th July.

The basis of practice on flag flying is, formally, a Royal Command by Her Majesty issued on the Royal Prerogative. Under devolution, these powers of the Royal Prerogative were transferred, in respect of devolved matters, to the individual Northern Ireland Ministers and departments.

During the 10 weeks of devolution, there was no common position among the Northern Ireland Ministers on how they should exercise their prerogative powers in relation to flags. The result was that most departments flew the Union flag from all their buildings on all the specified days; but two departments, under the instructions of their Ministers, did not fly the Union flag at all.

The Government believe that this difficult—though symbolic—issue is best resolved by the Executive Committee itself. Its members are best equipped to identify a basis on which practical and symbolic expression can be given to the underlying principles of the Good Friday agreement, the principle of consent, the principle of equality and the principle of mutual respect.

However, the Government do not want to see the Executive distracted by an essentially symbolic issue from their work to build up a sense of common collective purpose and approach to the business of governing Northern Ireland in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.

So this draft order provides a reserve power to set regulations on flag flying from government buildings in Northern Ireland. This reserve power will only be used if it becomes clear that the Executive Committee is unable to agree a way forward and the issue is becoming a palpable source of division among its members.

This reserve power has a number of important safeguards. As I have already said, the power to make regulations about flag-flying on government buildings in Northern Ireland will not be exercised until the Executive Committee has had an opportunity to see whether it can resolve the issue itself. But if this power is to be exercised to remove a potential source of division, it shall be done only in consultation with the Assembly and the Executive Committee. The draft order requires consultation with the Assembly on any regulations and any views it reports are taken into account.

The draft order also requires, very properly, that regard is paid to the provisions of the Belfast agreement—provisions on the principle of consent, on the principle of equality of treatment for the different identities and the provision for symbols and emblems to be used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.

Finally any regulations are to be approved in both Houses of Parliament.

The Government are not imposing proposals. If, at the end of the day, there is a need to exercise this reserve power there are a number of questions which will need to be answered. What arrangements for flag flying are suitable for government buildings in Northern Ireland and which respect the provisions of the Good Friday agreement? Is it right that the Union flag should be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on more days than is the case elsewhere in the United Kingdom? Is it necessarily helpful to require the flag to fly from every government building, wherever it is located and however significant or insignificant it may be? What other arrangements should be in place for flag flying?

The Government believe that a common-sense arrangement, respecting all the principles of the Good Friday agreement, can be arrived at with good will by the members of the Executive Committee. It is on that basis—hoping that the Government never need this power, but ready to use it if the Executive Committee cannot reach agreement—that I commend this draft order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)

My Lords, before saying anything on the order, I should like to thank the Government Chief Whip's office. The business today has been fairly confused and the Government Chief Whip's office has been extremely helpful. It has gone out of its way to make sure that those of us concerned with this order had a reasonable idea of when it would be dealt with.

I thank the Minister for the clear and precise way in which he explained the need for the order. I do not like it. I think it is a great shame that we must legislate not only in the House and another place but also, perhaps, in a Northern Ireland Assembly about whether and when we fly our national flag from our nation's government buildings. I find that very distasteful.

I feel that it is yet another move in the wrong direction. It would have been very much more helpful if the actions of the two Sinn Fein Ministers had not been highlighted in that way and they had quietly been told to go on doing what is customary to be done by the nation's Government whom they are serving. I should like to point out that those two Sinn Fein Ministers are serving in a British Government in a British state and, indeed, in part of the United Kingdom. It is traditional. As the Minister said, it is the Queen's Prerogative that the Union flag will be flown on government buildings within the United Kingdom on certain given days, ordered by her.

The other matter which concerns me about the order is its wording. So often in Northern Ireland orders, there is fudged wording. Part III states:

"The Secretary of State may make regulations regarding the flying of flags over government buildings".

It is the Union flag which is flown over government buildings. I believe that the wording of the order sends the wrong message or it is sloppy. I do not believe that it should be sloppy. We are talking about the Union flag.

I do not like this order; I do not like the way that it is pointing; and I do not believe that the 60 per cent of the population who are Unionists in Northern Ireland will appreciate it either.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the order and I endorse the view of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that it was done with commendable clarity.

It is vital that this order goes through. The flags issue, important and symbolic though it is, should not impede this stage of the peace process. The order provides an opportunity for Northern Ireland opinion of all kinds to make its views felt when devolution returns, as we hope it will.

It is important that this should not be an issue which is allowed to be ratcheted up at this particular point in the negotiations. On these Benches, we unequivocally support the order.

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, was on the Front Bench earlier today when I questioned the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on why Standing Order 72 was being dispensed with for the taking of this order so that it could be passed, notwithstanding the fact that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments had not reported on it.

The fact that the JCSI met today at quarter past four suggests to me that by now it has passed the order, but obviously there has not been time to report on it.

The noble Baroness's reasons seemed to me to be anodyne, so much so that one of my noble friends wanted to divide the House. In my view, that would have been quite wrong as the Motion which the noble Baroness sought to move at that point covered both orders. I am glad that, in the event, no Division was called.

The noble Baroness's reasons were, first, that this had been agreed through the usual channels, something of which I was not aware as I am not a member of the usual channels; and, secondly, that there is a Privy Council meeting tomorrow at which it is due to be discussed. It is my view that neither of those constitutes the emergency for which this standing order was designed.

The order transfers the responsibility for flags from the Assembly to the Secretary of State. As the noble and learned Lord said, there is no statutory provision for the flying of flags on government buildings in the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, the flying of the Union flag on public buildings is by royal command and is an exercise of the Royal Prerogative. Under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, royal prerogative powers on transferred matters can be exercised by any Northern Ireland Minister. Since the flying of flags is a transferred matter, it should be dealt with, as the noble and learned Lord said, by the Executive Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly and, ultimately, by the Assembly itself.

However, in the light of political sensitivities concerning this matter, the Secretary of State has decided that he should take the authority to regulate the flying of flags on Northern Ireland government buildings should the need arise.

One of the reasons for that is the anticipation of the reconstitution or re-establishment of the Assembly on 22nd May, which is next week. Clearly, neither the Government nor anyone else wants that to start with a row on this or any other matter. One can understand that. Unfortunately, however, as I read the order, it does not stop the potentially antagonistic debate in the Assembly because the order provides that where the Secretary of State proposes to make regulations to regulate the flying of flags a draft of those regulations shall be referred to the Northern Ireland Assembly which, in turn, as the noble and learned Lord said, will report to the Secretary of State the views expressed by the Assembly. The regulations will then be subject to approval by both Houses of Parliament.

So I am even more confused. First, it will not stop the potential row; and secondly, the urgency simply disappears because the second order, which will operate the flying of flags, is still to be laid before the House.

My Lords, I have one or two questions for the Minister. First, the order expressly states:

"'government building' means a building wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service".

Does that include or exclude Stormont?

Secondly, we are told in the Explanatory Note and, indeed, in the Minister's speech, that the Secretary of State will have regard to the Belfast agreement. The Belfast agreement clearly states that it is recognised:

"that the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish. It would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of the majority of its people".

I appeal to the Belfast agreement to support my argument.

However, I have a further argument. The Minister said, and it is often said, that we should not allow all this fuss about symbols to get in the way of serious decisions. The Belfast agreement states:

"All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes".

I could continue with that paragraph, but I shall not. Perhaps I may suggest that we should, indeed, meet the needs of the Belfast agreement. We should acknowledge that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, has a right to fly the Union flag and need not be expected to fly any other flag. However, I freely accept that if the British/Irish Council or the other joint body, during its meetings, should wish to fly the Irish flag also on Stormont, which I understand is what the Nationalists want, that seems perfectly reasonable. But we are talking about part of the United Kingdom. The Belfast agreement justifies our sticking to that position.

My Lords, I. too, wish to speak on this order, the tone and tenor of which gives me grave concern. I believe that this issue cuts right across the unionism of the kingdom and lies at the heart of the Good Friday agreement.

The reason we are discussing this subject here today is largely due to the activities of two Sinn Fein/IRA Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive who, while in office, ordered the removal of the Union flag from their departmental building. I am sure that I do not need to remind anyone present in this House today of the importance which flags and emblems assume in Northern Ireland.

When the agreement was signed over two years ago, Unionists believed that there had been an acceptance on the part of the Irish Nationalists and the Irish Republicans of the principle of consent; in other words, an acceptance of the fact that there could be no change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland. That point was of fundamental importance and, indeed, was recognised and built upon by the actions of the Irish Government in replacing Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution which hitherto had laid claim to Northern Ireland.

If there is serious doubt as to what flag should fly over government and public buildings in the Province, we must examine the nature of the Belfast agreement. It is either, as Unionists believe, a recognition by all sides of the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom or as part of a process designed to move Northern Ireland inexplicably towards a united Ireland or some form of joint authority.

It is my view that while the order is a step forward in that it removes the power of banning the flying of the Union flag from individual members of the Northern Ireland Executive and places that power in the hands of the Secretary of State, I believe that today we should instead be discussing on what days the flag will fly and on which buildings.

As I have stated, this issue cuts right across unionism. There are no "yes" and "no" camps on the flying of the Union flag within a constituent part of the kingdom. The constitutional settlement provided for by the Belfast agreement is within the United Kingdom and on the same basis as for Scotland and Wales. There can be no question, as was raised in some quarters at the weekend, of the Irish tricolour flying alongside the Union flag on British government and public buildings in Northern Ireland. That is a particularly dangerous notion which must be stamped on at the earliest possible opportunity.

The Irish tricolour is the national flag of another sovereign state. For it to fly alongside the Union flag on government buildings would signal to many Unionists and, indeed, Nationals, that a form of joint authority was in place in Northern Ireland. That certainly was not part of any agreement which I supported and for which many Unionists voted. The Secretary of State should be in no doubt that the national flag is the only flag which should fly over government and public buildings in Northern Ireland, and that means the Union flag.

My Lords, no one can view the impractical affairs of Northern Ireland without having great sympathy for those on the Government Front Bench who have to handle the responsibilities of that Province. However, my sympathies lie with those who have great anxiety about the instrument before us. I say that because it seems that we are enveloping the whole business of flag flying with a most extraordinary degree of legislation of one sort or another.

I cannot believe that the practical consequences of that will be other than to put pressure upon the flying of the Union flag. I believe that in its way, because of the symbolism, it is in line of succession with the Patten report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary. It is all part of a situation where, by one means or another, there is a subtle process at work—I do not say that it is the responsibility of the Government; it goes much wider than the British political system—of hoping to shoehorn Northern Ireland out of its traditional Unionist loyalties into some other form. I view that with suspicion and sadness.

My Lords, for the good reasons expressed by noble Lords in their speeches, I share the general anxieties about the order. We hope that goodwill will prevail and that the order might not be required. But surely if it was required, it is inconceivable that the Government would prevent the flying of the Union flag in Northern Ireland. I should have thought that the Government could come out and say now, "We want to make certain that if there is disagreement, we will fly the Union flag" because that is so important from the point of view of the United Kingdom.

I cannot understand, as, indeed, I believe my noble friend Lord Glentoran said at the beginning of the debate, why this is called the Flags Order. We do not have any old flag. This should be the Union Flag Order as far as this Parliament is concerned. As my noble friend Lord Biffen mentioned, it is sad that we have reached this stage of legislating relative to our own flag. If one goes abroad, particularly to the United States of America, one will see the United States flag flying everywhere. Throughout the suburbs of many areas of the USA not only are there United States flags flying but state flags also. The people there are very flag minded. I believe that is true in Northern Ireland where, rightly, they like to promote the use of our Union flag.

I share the view of my noble friend Lady Park of Monmouth as regards the statement:

"occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service".

That does not seem to me to be a good definition of a government building. Does it include military buildings? What about army camps? Are they entitled to fly the Union flag, as they often do, alongside their regimental flag? As my noble friend asked, does it apply to RUC police stations and headquarters?

As my noble friend Lord Glentoran indicated right from the start, it was a sad affair to bring this order to the House. It is sad that it is necessary and sad that the Government have any doubt in their mind as to what they would do if there was disagreement within the Assembly in Northern Ireland. I cannot believe that any government, particularly a government here at Westminster, could prevent the flying of the Union flag in Northern Ireland and even the possibility of flying it alongside the tricolour. It just does not seem feasible to me, and I think that the Government should stand up and say, "If there is any doubt, yes, we fly the Union flag".

My Lords, I think I can understand some of the fears and anxieties expressed during this debate. They seem to reflect the tensions that arise from a deeply divided society. I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord the Minister whether he agrees that probably the fewer flags, of any kind, that can be flown in Northern Ireland the better for all concerned.

As regards flags on government property, there is a precedent which might usefully be followed. That is the precedent which seems to govern the letterheads on the official writing paper of Northern Ireland government departments. These simply and plainly state the name and address of the department, and are not embellished with coats of arms, crests or other devices. Perhaps that could be borne in mind.

My Lords, I regard the Motion which is before the House today as rather analogous to what happened on Good Friday two years ago, when the Belfast Agreement was drawn up. I think I am right in saying that securing the vote of the people of Northern Ireland for the Belfast Agreement was on the basis of not just everything that was in the agreement but also a personal assurance that was given by the Prime Minister overnight and the handwritten note that was presented alongside the agreement to the people of Northern Ireland, reassuring them on their basic and rather fundamental fears about the issue of decommissioning.

I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, is agreeing with me that there was a concern that the people of Northern Ireland would not actually sign the agreement without that reassurance. I believe that to be the case. What we have here is another device—the word "device" has just been used—and I would not regard flying the flag of one's own sovereign country to be a device. However, this is a device: it is a device to take yet another issue about Northern Ireland, kick it into the long grass, and leave it to be fought over another day. I believe that this is a fudge and a typical "third way" in the Government's handling of matters in Northern Ireland.

I should like to say that flying the flag of one's own sovereign country is a basic human right and the people of Northern Ireland should be allowed to exercise that right. I can only foresee, as I think my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale said, that this difficult and painful debate will continue. Indeed, I believe it will bring it into greater focus. That is because the people will be preoccupied with this as the first issue that needs to be addressed by the Assembly and the Executive when they meet. They will first have to resolve the flags issue.

It seems to me almost offensive to refer to "flags". I agree with the point made by my noble friend Lord Glentoran: that we should at least extend the courtesy to our friends in Northern Ireland, our fellow countrymen, of referring to "the Union flag" and not saying merely "flags".

My Lords, I am very sympathetic towards the Government over the very difficult problem that faces them. I have sympathy, too, with the Unionists of Northern Ireland in their difficulty. I know that the Nationalists can be somewhat irritating, to say the least, but I wonder whether it is absolutely necessary or helpful to fly the Union flag on 12th July.

My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the contributions that have been made to this short but important debate. I understand the concern that has been expressed about this order. Perhaps I may try briefly to reply to all the points that have been made. To begin, I should like to say something about the principles that underlie the making of the Order.

First, we believe that this difficult but important issue is best resolved by the Executive, if it can be. We believe that the best way of doing so is to pursue the principles of the Belfast Agreement. As that agreement acknowledges the legitimacy of the position of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom, I believe that practice in Northern Ireland should reflect practice elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It should result in mutual respect, not division.

The Union flag remains the flag of the United Kingdom, of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part. While that is the wish of the majority of its people, flying the flag should be accepted practice. That issue is without doubt best resolved by the Executive. Having said that, it would be in nobody's interest if the Executive was consumed for weeks and months by shadow-boxing over what is essentially a symbolic issue.

All of us would like to see the Executive build up a sense of common collective purpose and approach to the business of governing Northern Ireland in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. This draft order provides my right honourable friend the Secretary of State with a reserve power to set regulations on flag flying from government buildings. He will only use this reserve power if it becomes clear that the Executive is unable to agree a way forward and the issue is becoming a palpable source of division among its members.

Great concern has been expressed in your Lordships' House about the use of the word "flags" rather than "flag". The reason the word appears in the plural is because the order must be able to prohibit as well as to permit. There was absolutely no intention of any sort to cause offence one way or the other by using that phrase. I very much hope what I have said puts your Lordships' minds at rest in relation to that particular issue.—

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Minister for giving way. It was not the plural or the singular that I was referring to: I felt that it should be the "Union flag", as opposed to "flag" or "flags".

My Lords, the reason the word is in the plural is, as I have indicated, because there may be more than one flag at issue, both in relation to prohibition and consent. That is why the drafting appears in that way. I hope that is clear.

The second concern that was expressed was about timing. Legally, the Government only have power to pass this order while the Assembly is suspended. From Monday it will not be possible for them to pass this order and therefore it has to be done this week. That is why it was done at speed, bypassing to some extent the normal procedures. It was not done as an attempt to avoid the proper protections but simply to reflect the fact that if there was to be this reserve power, which we think is important to avoid the risk of the unsuspended Assembly becoming consumed by this issue, it had to be done this week. That is why the normal standing orders have been bypassed.

There was concern about what is a government building. The noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, asked whether it included Stormont, or the parliament building. As I understood it, that was her question. The answer is no, it does not. The Parliament building, as the seat of the legislature, is not under the control of a Northern Ireland Minister in the Executive. Decisions relating to parliament buildings are taken by the Assembly Commission, which is a corporate body made up of Members of the Assembly and chaired by the Speaker.

One question related to army camps. They are not under the control of the Executive but under the control of the Ministry of Defence. Obviously it will be a matter for the Ministry of Defence to determine. As for the RUC, that body is under the control of a chief constable, and obviously it is for him to determine issues about flag flying. I believe I have dealt with all the specific points that were raised. Obviously we understand the great concern that has been expressed, but I hope your Lordships understand that a painstaking and enormous amount of hard work was put into building confidence in an attempt to restore politics to normal in Northern Ireland. We think this is a sensible way forward in this respect, and I commend this Order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 10th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this order appoints 21st May 2001 as the date before which the amnesty period identified in a non-statutory decommissioning scheme must end. The amnesty period is the time during which firearms, ammunition and explosives can be decommissioned in accordance with the scheme, thereby attracting both the amnesty and prohibitions on evidential use and forensic testing of decommissioned items provided by the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997.

Section 2 of the 1997 Act requires that a scheme must set out the amnesty period and that it must end before 27th February 1998 unless the Secretary of State, by order, appoints a later day. Three such orders have already been made. Under that made in February this year, the amnesty period will expire at midnight on the 22nd of this month. The purpose of this order is to extend that period until midnight on 20th May next year.

When this order was last extended the political situation in Northern Ireland was very different to that which we see today. My noble friend Lady Farrington sought an extension of the amnesty period only three days after the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive Committee had been suspended due to a serious decline in confidence in the political institutions brought about by a lack of tangible progress on decommissioning. I am delighted to be before your Lordships today under much more positive circumstances.

The details of the recent progress in the political negotiations are now well known to noble Lords and I do not intend to go over them again in great depth. However, I wish to stress again the significance of the IRA statement issued last week. It has undertaken to put its arms completely and verifiably beyond use. It is making arms dumps available to outside inspectors and the first steps are already being taken.

The importance of those undertakings cannot be underestimated. The very real prospect of progress on decommissioning is now within sight. The extension of the amnesty period is crucial to progress on this front. Without the extension of this order decommissioning is simply not possible—whatever commitments are made by the IRA or any other paramilitary organisation.

In order to continue to fulfil our commitments under the agreement, it is essential that we extend, through this order, the period during which an amnesty is provided in respect of offences which might otherwise be committed in the course of decommissioning in accordance with a decommissioning scheme. The confidence-building measure announced by the IRA last week is the first step in a process which will lead to arms being placed completely and verifiably beyond use. The IRA will reengage with the International Decommissioning Commission to take this forward. Arms will be secured in separate dumps which will be inspected by independent third parties.

The Decommissioning Act requires arms to be destroyed or made permanently inaccessible or unusable. Precisely how and when that should take place is a matter for the IICD. The Government are most grateful to former President Martti Ahtisaari of Finland and former General Secretary of the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa, who have agreed to act as independent inspectors of the arms dumps, reporting to the IICD. Theirs is a crucial task. The Government have every confidence that they will fulfil the role they have been given with the utmost professionalism. They have already visited London and Belfast for an initial round of discussions. They met with the IICD while in Belfast to discuss how they will be taking their responsibilities forward. Their visit indicates the speed with which we are moving forward and demonstrates the very real nature of what has been offered by the IRA.

For the first time we have both words and deeds to demonstrate and underpin the IRA's statement that it will pursue its political aims through peaceful means. Those developments are hugely significant. This Government are committed to both devolution and decommissioning. This order is essential to ensure that the conditions exist to make decommissioning happen. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 10th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation. The second order before the House this afternoon continues for a further 12 months the provisions of the measure taken through another place by my noble friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden four years ago. On this side of the House we agree that the provision should be renewed. The order will last for a further year and we support it.

However, it is sad that it is necessary so to do. If decommissioning had taken place, your Lordships would not have to consider the issue. But we take particular note of the fact that the IRA has made a positive statement on decommissioning, though as yet there has been no such indication from the so-called loyalists. However, we wish the people of Northern Ireland well as they grapple with this difficult problem.

My Lords, we support the passing of this order. We realise it is necessary at this particular point in time otherwise there would be no possibility of decommissioning. Having the two independent assessors—Cyril Ramaphosa and Martti Ahtisaari—reporting to the IICD is good news. Of course, we all wish that this had happened in the past, but let us not be curmudgeonly; this is an important step forward. As the noble Lord, Lord Eames, the Archbishop of Armagh, said on the radio today, this is a significant time. He was indeed being reasonably optimistic, more optimistic in fact than we have heard over the past few years. We should follow his sentiments and give this order a fair wind.

My Lords, I doubt if anyone would wish to oppose this order. But it worries me that the Minister seems to be living in an optimistic world and looking at this matter through rose-tinted spectacles.

So far as I can discover, the IRA statement gave no date for the commencement of decommissioning; it gave no date for the completion of decommissioning; and it laid down certain conditions which, if one understands IRA-speak, mean the end of the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Northern Ireland before it has committed itself to do anything other than possibly allow two gentlemen—whose motives will be good——to look at some of their armaments dumps (not all, but some), I doubt very much whether, in a year's time, we shall have any clear assurance that any arms have been rendered unusable. If the IRA had wanted to render its arms unusable, it could simply pour a few tonnes of ready-mixed concrete into the bunkers. But that is not what is proposed. It proposes that the bunkers should remain there and that the arms should remain there, ready for use and most certainly not decommissioned.

The Minister, no doubt for good reasons, wants to believe that a great step forward has occurred. But I see no great step forward except by Her Majesty's Government along the road to ending the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Northern Ireland.

My Lords, I hate to be, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, said, curmudgeonly, but I, too, feel doubt about the efficacy of inspections of arms carried out by a Finnish and an African politician, neither of whom, so far as I know, has ever handled Semtex or held a gun. It may be difficult for them, looking at the interesting exhibits they will be shown, to reach any real conclusion. I am delighted that they will be allowed to do it, but I do not have much faith in the result.

I share the view of my noble friend Lord Tebbit that, until we know what has been promised to the IRA in return for this, in terms of what it wants in the criminal justice Bill, and a number of other issues of that sort, I shall not be happy that we have had a good deal. I shall watch with interest how far General de Chastelain is actually able to apply any serious "modalities of decommissioning", as they are described in the instrument.

My Lords, I certainly support the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Park. However, there is something that concerns both me and my noble friend Lord Tebbit about the two gentleman who are now going to look at the arms dumps. Indeed, can we go a little further in this respect? For example, are they going to inspect them every month, or every three months? Are they going to count the number of weapons inside these dumps to see whether there are 100 or 1,000 rifles, and so on, within—or, indeed, any semtex? Further, will any of these weapons be de-activated during the coming year? There is no point in starting off the process of inspection of umpteen arms dumps all over Northern Ireland if they are in exactly the same condition in 12 months' time. We want to see fewer weapons and de-activated weapons. This will ensure that they can never be used again in the future.

People in this country have gone through the strictest firearms legislation over recent years. Indeed, whether you want a shotgun certificate or a firearms certificate, you have to go through very complicated procedures, including getting a number of people to vouch that you are a reputable person and suitable to own a weapon. I suspect—and I am sure that this applies to everyone in practical terms—that there are a number of members of the IRA who do not keep their weapons in an underground dump but who keep them under the bed or in a cupboard. Where do those people stand? Do they have firearms certificates? Will they have their weapons de-activated? Alternatively, will they be required to hand them in to the nearest dump to enable them to be inspected from time to time by the officials so that we know that such weapons are not in the hands of members of the IRA in, so to speak, open countryside?

Like my noble friend Lord Tebbit, I thought that the Minister seemed to be looking through rose-tinted spectacles when outlining how this was going to happen. We have been so near the brink year in year out about decommissioning, yet it never seems to happen. Therefore, we should not be too excited until we actually see some form of decommissioning—and I mean decommissioning, not just storing arms for another 12 months—or the de-activating of each individual weapon so that such weaponry can never be used again.

My Lords, there can be no doubt that these proposals will not produce a really effective inspection system that will ensure that all IRA weapons are beyond use. However, we should welcome them as a further step in the whole business of dealing with the situation in Northern Ireland. One advances with little creeping steps, and sometimes one then takes steps backwards. I welcome what is proposed, although I have sympathy with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and the noble Baroness, Lady Park. As a professional soldier, I know perfectly well that this is not an effective inspection system; but it is a further slight step forward towards maintaining and bringing about a situation in which those arms will not actively be used again.

My Lords, I welcome what my noble and gallant friend just said. In the light of some earlier remarks this afternoon, I have just one comment to make. Since 1994, we have had cease-fires with, admittedly, a number of breaches. This has been an enormous benefit for the great majority of people living in Northern Ireland. It has led to a very marked economic improvement. Therefore, anyone who breaks the cease-fire and returns to the violence of the past will be most unpopular and held, I would say, in execration by many people. That is all I wish to say.

My Lords, again, I am grateful for the comments that have been made in this short debate. It is worth emphasising two points. In their statement of 6th May, the IRA's leadership said that they would,

"initiate a process that would completely and verifiably put IRA arms beyond use".

They have never previously said such a thing. They also agreed to put in place within weeks a confidence-building measure,

"to confirm that our weapons remain secure",

which was a reference to the inspection of some arms dumps. Again, that is something to which they have never previously agreed.

Of course one must be vigilant; of course one must be on one's guard; and of course one must not be too credulous. But the Government regard this as a significant step forward. The timing and modalities of the process of decommissioning are matters to be determined by General de Chastelain and the decommissioning commission. We believe that we have reached a significant moment and that we should capitalise on it. I am grateful for the support that has been expressed, especially from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Front Benches, for the extension of the amnesty order, which is plainly a vital step in ensuring that decommissioning occurs. I commend the order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Elton) in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Terrorism: interpretation]:

Before I call Amendment No. 1, I must tell the Committee that, if it is agreed to, I shall be unable to call Amendments Nos. 2 to 8 inclusive.

moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, line 7, leave out from ("use") to ("outside") in line 14 and insert ("of serious violence against persons, or the causing of serious damage to property, or the threat to use such violence or cause such damage, to intimidate or coerce a government, the public, or any section of the public, in order to promote political, religious or ideological objectives.

(2) In subsection (1)—

(a) "damage" includes any interference with electronic systems,

(b) "property" includes any public utility undertakings,

(c) "violence" includes the causing of personal injury,

(d) "use" includes use").

Our Amendment No. 3 adds a further element to this interesting and important discussion about how terrorism should be defined. It is worth the Committee taking some time to discuss these issues and to see how far we can get towards a consensus. That may enable us to come back at a later stage with a more effectively targeted definition.

We believe that the definition in the Bill as it now stands is in some respects too wide and in other respects too narrow. We believe that it is too narrow because it requires the relevant terrorist acts to be,

"for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause".

We do not think that motive is a necessary or desirable part of the definition. A motive for terrorism could be none of these; it could be criminal. For example, a group of criminals could get hold of radioactive material and threaten to let off a crude bomb which would scatter it around an inhabited area such as central London unless the Government buys them off by submitting to blackmail.

Criminal terrorism is fairly rare, but it certainly happens. For example, it plainly happens in Columbia, where the drug cartels go in extensively for terrorism. It could happen in many other parts of the world and there is no reason to suppose that it could not happen in the United Kingdom.

We could, of course, deal with that particular point simply by adding the word "criminal" to the words "political, religious or ideological"—but why bother to do that? If acts are being committed which involve deliberate violence being directed against the public or against a government in order to intimidate, why does it matter what the motive is? It simply adds an unnecessary element which has to be proved before a conviction can happen. It possibly opens up the prospect that someone could be charged with a criminal offence because of a political motive and could then claim that he should be acquitted because his motive was not political but ideological. That I think is the kind of "logic-chopping" argument that any definition should seek to avoid.

But the definition is also too wide. First, it does not require violence. I believe that violence is, in most circumstances, an essential element of terrorism, with the exception of cyber terrorism. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Cope: cyber terrorism is clearly something which has to be taken very seriously. We could well end up with something far more damaging than the "love bug", which turned out to be a serious nuisance but not a major economic threat.

Under the Government's definition, a long strike by refuse collectors could create a serious risk to the health of the public. It could, therefore, come within the Government's definition of "terrorism". But that plainly would not be regarded as "terrorism" in any normal use of the word.

Secondly, where the Government's definition refers to violence, it does not require that violence to be unlawful. The actions taken on behalf of Her Majeity's Government and other states in Kosovo and Serbia last year involved serious violence against the person and property; it was, unquestionably, for the purpose of advancing a political cause. It therefore seems to me that that is plainly within the Bill's definition of "terrorism", even though the violence was lawful under the law of the United Kingdom. Plainly some change to the definition—which could be done simply by describing the violence as "unlawful"—is necessary to ensure that we do not end up with that kind of absurdity.

Thirdly, under the Bill the definition of "terrorism" can be triggered by too low a level of violence against property. It has been suggested that the action of Greenpeace in pulling up GM crops might fall within the Bill's definition. I do not think that that is so; it would be difficult to regard that kind of violence as falling within a definition of "serious violence". But the actions in Whitehall and adjacent areas on May Day could certainly be regarded as involving serious violence to property, although I believe that they fell short of the level of violence required to constitute terrorism.

I do not accept the arguments from some quarters that violence against property can never of itself amount to terrorism. Economic terrorism is plainly possible. Indeed, a high proportion of IRA terrorism has been for economic reasons. The bombs in the City of London and in Canary Wharf in recent years were primarily intended to cause economic damage, although, sadly, they caused some loss of human life and injury.

A terrorist campaign involving putting the London Underground out of action or destroying a number of the Thames bridges in London would cause serious damage to the economic well-being of London and would be properly regarded as terrorism even if steps were successfully taken to ensure that it was done with no loss of life or serious injury. So, for example, would attacks on the National Grid. As has already been said, cyber-terrorism holds enormous prospects for economic damage.

I am not convinced that our definition is the best that can be achieved—I think further improvements could be made to it—but it does include what I believe is the core definition of terrorism as far as possible and little, if anything, beyond it.

That core definition seems to me to involve these factors. First, there must be serious and unlawful violence, extending that definition of violence to include cyber-terrorism but not actions such as strikes. Secondly, that violence must be directed against the public or a section of the public. Thirdly, where the violence in question is violence against property, it must be at a level which causes serious economic damage to the country as a whole or to a significant part of the country such as London.

The examples that the noble Lord gave such as attacks on the London Underground or attacks on the bridges would surely be serious criminal offences under our existing law.

Of course they would be serious criminal offences under our existing law. However, that is not a sufficient reason for saying they should not be regarded as terrorism. The essence of terrorism is not merely that they are serious offences but that they are serious offences directed against the public either in terms of causing physical threats to sections of the public or in causing serious economic damage. That is, for instance, why the powers that are given to control terrorist organisations may he required in cases where the terrorism in question is economic terrorism of this kind.

I believe that our definition in Amendment No. 3 is better than the definition in the Bill. The amended version moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, was indeed an improvement on that in the Bill, but that in itself is capable of improvement, particularly in two respects. First, it includes what I regard as an unnecessary reference to the motive for the terrorism. Secondly, the terrorism is once again triggered by too low a test of violence to property. For example, within the Conservative definition, road protesters sabotaging construction machinery by setting it on fire could be committing acts of serious violence for a political or ideological motive and would therefore come within that definition, though I do not think it is appropriate in those circumstances that they should do so. That is certainly criminal damage but it is not damage which causes severe harm to the economy and therefore is not, in my opinion, appropriate to be described as terrorism.

That is an explanation of our views. I await with interest what the Government and other speakers have to say on this matter.

The proposed definition of terrorism in the Bill is wider than that employed in the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. That Act stated that,

"'terrorism' means the use of violence for political ends, and includes any use of violence for the purpose of putting the public or any section of the public in fear".

The new definition in the Terrorism Bill will apply to terrorism connected to matters in Northern Ireland, international terrorism and, for the first time, actions by domestic groups in Great Britain. Additionally, the purpose necessary for actions to be defined as terrorist has been widened beyond the merely political to include religious and ideological causes. The definition of violence has also been extended to serious violence against any person or property.

The definition goes even further in that it also includes acts which create a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public. This is not qualified by the need to show that violence has been used to intimidate or coerce a government, the public or a section of the public. It also includes action taken for the benefit of a proscribed organisation. There are real concerns that, for example, road protesters and those opposed to genetically modified crops will be among those whose activities are branded as terrorist, whereas, whether they are right or wrong, they are clearly at a lower level than that.

The definition has also removed the distinction usually made in the criminal law between acts which injure people and actions which damage property. I do not go quite as far as those who think that property is theft, but I do go as far as those who think theologically that all private property is lent and is not absolute property to be disposed of as anyone wants. Therefore, I think there is an important distinction to be made between the public property about which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has been talking, and private property. We might explore a little in this debate at some stage.

The rationale behind such a distinction is the deterrence of acts which threaten life. Thus crimes that injure or endanger life normally carry higher penalties than those that damage property. No such distinction is made in the definition of terrorism adopted by the present Bill. Therefore, there is a risk, which must be taken seriously, that there will be no incentive under the scheme of the Bill for a terrorist to choose targets which do not endanger other people.

One of the principal concerns about the Bill's definition of terrorism in relation to the application of human rights standards is that it is so broad as to lack certainty. The definition of terrorism in the Bill is crucial because it forms the basis for the application of much of the remainder of the Bill. Since the consequences of the definition are so great, it is important that the scope of the definition should be clearly ascertainable and justifiable so as to ensure the credibility of the legislation and its enforcement mechanisms.

In analysing the proposals contained in the Terrorism Bill against the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights, it is important to bear in mind that hitherto consideration of the laws of terrorism by the court has been concerned with particular types of political violence. The broadening of the definition of terrorism to include actions undertaken for religious or ideological causes and the inclusion as terrorist organisations of domestic groups is likely to put the proposed terrorist laws to even more stringent examination under the convention, both at the Court of Human Rights and later in domestic courts when the main provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998 come into force in October 2000.

This is a very, very important definition. There was a great deal of debate about it in another place which, as has been said, was really indeterminate in the end and no one, even the Government, appears to be absolutely certain as to what they want the answers to be. I hope my amendments in this area are helpful. I very much look forward to hearing the debate at this stage and hope that some kind of consensus may arise which will lead to us having a more focused debate at Report stage than was had in another place or than we are likely to have this evening.

I find myself in the position of agreeing with all of the speeches made so far. All of us are seeking to, in the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his report,

"strike the right balance between the needs of security and the rights and liberties of the individual".

That is one of the noble and learned Lord's four principles. All of us are struggling, as must the Government and their advisers have struggled, to find a definition that is not over-inclusive, in that it hits at a wider target than is really necessary, or under-inclusive, in not including conduct which deserves to be stigmatised as terrorism and made unlawful, subjected to severe sanctions and conferring on the police and the security service necessary but very wide powers. That is why all of us are concerned to achieve reasonable legal certainty in the definition of what constitutes terrorism.

My noble friend Lord Goodhart explained very fully the reasons why we have put forward the amendment and so I shall not take the time of the Committee by adding very much to what he said. But I should like to make one or two points. First, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, who once said in relation to Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911—perhaps it was Lord Franks who said it first—that it was a blunderbuss. The noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, said that it should be replaced by an Armalite rifle. It is important that the definition in the Bill of terrorism should be more like an Armalite rifle than a blunderbuss. We are concerned that in some respects there is unnecessary vagueness and over-inclusiveness.

There is a great deal to commend the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. We can see advantages in each other's definitions and are searching towards a consensus definition. No one has achieved a perfect definition. Amendment No. 1, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, is a useful amendment. Its disadvantage is that it retains the requirement for terrorist action to be political, religious or ideological in motivation, which may well be problematic, and it also requires that the threat of violence is,

"to intimidate or coerce a government, the public, or any section of the public".

That has the advantage of securing some kind of proportionality requirement and is modelled on the recommendation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick.

Amendment No. 5, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, restricts the application of the Bill to,

"unlawful action which is intended to intimidate or coerce a government, the public or any section of the public".

That is in line with the review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I prefer the amendment in our names because what constitutes intimidation or coercion is very unclear and could also be unnecessarily restrictive. Amendment No. 7, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, restricting the application of terrorist legislation to what he describes as,

"serious violence against property which endangers the life of, or risks serious injury to, another",

would exclude much economic sabotage or terrorist activity directed against infrastructure, including cyber-terrorism, as my noble friend Lord Goodhart indicated.

We have difficulties with those amendments for those reasons. We all seek a fair balance and we are not satisfied that the Government's wording is sufficiently inclusive and in some respects it hits too wide.

I hope that the Committee will be able to come up with a consensus and a clear definition in this matter. I should like the Minister to say a few words about our international obligations in connection with the definition of terrorism with regard to both the European Court and any other international court which deals with these matters. I ask that because I am reasonably familiar with a case, which is outstanding, in Greenock sheriff court. Three ladies of deep religious conviction and associated with a pacifist religious group took a boat, went out to a Trident submarine sitting in Holy Loch, obtained access to the submarine and promptly put £40,000 of computer equipment into the Holy Loch. That was their protest.

Under the definitions in the Bill it would appear that they would be guilty of action against property. However, that is not what the sheriff of Greenock sheriff court decided. She was led evidence of the findings of an international court which deliberated on this matter and argued that since Trident is an offence against humanity they were quite justified in taking the action they took because Trident in itself is illegal except when applied in self-defence. The three ladies were acquitted and under Scottish law they cannot be retried. They were acquitted on the grounds that their action, which in the Bill's definition would be an offence, did not constitute an offence because they were avoiding a greater offence against humanity.

I am sorry that I have not given my noble friend notice of this matter but it is an interesting case. It arises from the issues we have been discussing concerning what is an offence against property. I would be happy if the Minister could give us some guidance on the implications of this matter as it is affected by European or international jurisdiction.

At Second Reading there was general agreement, with the exception, of course, of the government, that the Bill is too widely drafted and perhaps nowhere more so than in its definition of terrorism. I should therefore like to ask the Government whether they have studied the other current definitions that exist in other jurisdictions. In particular, have they examined how those have worked out in practice and are they too wide or too narrow?

I turn to Amendment No. 1. It is vitally important that the definition should establish that the person in question has an intention to commit terrorism—in legal language, that he has the mens rea.> Amendment No. 1 seems to wish to do that by bringing in the words "intimidate or coerce". I notice that similar words occur again in Amendment No. 5.

I move on to the following words, "a government". I would prefer to see in their place a phrase such as, "the institutions of democratic government". That wording was put forward by the Northern Ireland human rights commission, a semi-statutory body.

The noble Lord, Lord Cope, rightly pointed out that the phrase, "serious damage to property", is almost certainly preferable to the Government's phrase of "violence" to property. Perhaps I may add that, as drafted, the Bill refers to any property anywhere in the world, regardless of whether that property is valuable or important.

The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was right to use the words "unlawful violence" in Amendment No. 3 because we do not want to include, for example, a strike held by nurses. Furthermore, he and others were, in my view, correct to mention economic damage and to stress that it should be "serious" economic damage.

I conclude by expressing the hope that a consensus will be reached by the time we reach Report stage and that we shall end up with a generally agreed definition.

I think we shall be in serious difficulty if we retain the definition in Clause 1 as it stands. My noble friend Lord Goodhart touched on this when he pointed out the distinction between acts that might be committed by a terrorist against the London Underground or the bridges crossing the river Thames, on the one hand, and the kind of violence against property exhibited during the May Day demonstrations, on the other. No one in their right mind would suggest that the person who daubed the statue of Sir Winston Churchill in Parliament Square should have been convicted of an act of terrorism. In my opinion it was bad enough that he was sent to prison at all for an offence of daubing graffiti, but it certainly was not what an ordinary member of the public would consider to be a serious act of violence.

The difficulty with the definition lies in the fact that, in the law as it now stands, that phrase is not well understood. I am advised that it occurs in Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 in which powers have been given to the police to search people without the need for reasonable grounds if an act of serious violence is feared. The problem with the provision is that it has never been tested in the courts. For that reason, people who are searched under the terms of that provision do not think it would be easy to go to court and challenge the interpretation of the police by saying that what was contemplated was not serious violence within the meaning of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

The Government need to convince noble Lords that the phrase would be easily interpreted by the courts and that it would not be applied in cases where common sense would dictate that a person should be charged with a lesser offence.

Another interesting point that noble Lords should bear in mind when deciding on the definition is the incompatibility between Clause 1 and what is proposed under Clause 59(2)(e) where reference is made to a person who commits the offence of inciting terrorism overseas. The essential element of that offence is that the act to be incited should, if committed in England or Wales, constitute one of the offences listed in subsection (2) of Clause 59. That includes, in subsection (e),

"an offence under section 1(2) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 (endangering life by damaging property)".

The test of a terrorist act overseas is far less rigid than that which we shall apply in the United Kingdom. I would prefer to see the two definitions aligned. It seems to me to be perfectly reasonable that a person should be charged with an offence of terrorism if the damage to property is such as to cause loss of life or to threaten to cause loss of life. I do not know whether the examples given by my noble friend fall into that category.

It could be argued that, in a case where someone damaged the National Grid so that electricity was suspended in a certain area and people dependent on artificial lungs had their lives put in jeopardy, an offence of terrorism might apply. However, to include such a general definition of damage to property as now stands in the clause is extremely dangerous.

That is especially the case when one considers the term "ideology". That, too, is undefined. I do not know what the Government mean by "ideology". Perhaps they will explain it. For example, let us suppose that one's ideological belief is that housing is an absolute right, that property is theft, and that one is entitled to break into a house owned by the local authority and take possession of it. Are we to say here that that is an act of terrorism? We may disagree with the act—I do not like squatters—but to pretend that such an offence should be included in a definition of terrorism would be taking things much too far.

Whether we accept the definition proposed by my noble friend, which personally I think provides the right answer, or that put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, the fact is that the definition in the Bill is grossly unsatisfactory and needs to be amended.

We have had an extremely helpful and useful debate this afternoon. I am very impressed by the contributions made by all Members of the House because they have been delivered so constructively and thoughtfully. As I work through my remarks I shall try to deal with as many of the points that have been raised under the various amendments as I can. I hope that noble Lords will give me the time needed to do that, because I believe that this is the most important area of discussion and debate on the legislation before us.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, was right to remind us that we must ensure that we deal with the Armalite rather than the blunderbuss. That was a helpful reminder of how we need to consider this whole debate: how wide should we make the definition and how should we narrow it down at certain points? That offers the parameters for the debate and illustrates the difficulties we face in getting this just right. I am grateful, too, for the sympathy many noble Lords have expressed as regards the difficulty of the exercise.

Perhaps I may make a number of opening remarks about definition and then go through the various points that have been raised. If I repeat some of the remarks I made in the debate on Second Reading, then I apologise to noble Lords. However, I am sure that some of those comments will bear repetition. First, I shall explain the consideration behind the Government's definition, which draws heavily on the existing definition in the prevention of terrorism Act. That defines terrorism as the use of violence for political ends, including putting the public or any section of the public in fear. That definition has stood the test of time. It has not changed since the prevention of terrorism Act was first introduced in 1974. It has, in its rough and ready way, worked well. We took the view that the definition should be changed only where it was necessary to do so.

Secondly, we considered carefully the definition proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his report. The new elements introduced were the application of the definition to all forms of terrorism; the raising of the threshold to "serious violence"; the inclusion of threats as well as acts; and the inclusion of additional "qualifying motivations"—so social and ideological as well as political objectives were included; and the requirement that, for an action to be classed as terrorist, it must be done to intimidate or coerce a government or the public. The noble and learned Lord proposed also that the definition should cover,

"the terrorist who without using violence sets out to disrupt vital computer installations such as air traffic systems thereby causing great danger to life".

We agreed with the noble and learned Lord on most of his conclusions and we believe that our definition covers virtually all of those points.

The noble and learned Lord offered a helpful reminder to us at Second Reading. He said that there was great difficulty in finding a satisfactory definition. He went on:

"Indeed, I was unable to do so and I suspect that none of us will succeed … [but] we must do our best".—[Official Report, 6/4/00; col. 1444.]

That is the spirit in which we should conduct our debates as we work through the Bill.

Thirdly, as now, there is no terrorism offence linked with the definition. What the definition does is to trigger the availability to the police and others of certain powers and offences. We need to understand it in that context. The role of the definition is to set the parameters within which the powers and offences under the Bill may operate.

Fourthly, and importantly, we took the view that it was essential that the definition should cover all the ground that experience over the past 25 or more years, and our assessment of future threats, suggest should be covered—so that the police and other security agencies always have at their disposal the powers that they need to combat terrorism. In working up the new definition we consulted the police and other agencies closely and took careful account of their views. While we of course recognise the importance of the circumstances being proportionate in which the additional offences and powers under the Bill are available, we should be failing in our duty if the definition of terrorism did not extend to the full range of contexts where security advice and experience suggest they are needed. A judgment has to be made based on security and other considerations. The fact that some of the amendments before the Committee seek to limit the scope of the definition, while others seek to extend it, indicates the complexities involved.

Fifthly, and finally, while the Government would never be so complacent as to suggest that there is no chance that the definition could be improved upon—which is why we have been grateful to consider alternatives that have been proposed—we continue to believe that the definition on the face of the Bill is, roughly speaking, the right one. We believe that it balances correctly the need to ensure that the definition is only as wide as it needs to be with the need to ensure that the police are confident that they will always have at their disposal the powers and offences that they need to fight terrorism.

I now turn to points raised in relation to particular amendments, and, first, to those of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. We believe that the amendments tabled—

Before the Minister turns to amendments tabled by other noble Lords, perhaps I may ask him a question relating to Clause 1(1) as it now stands, which causes me a problem as regards what he rightly referred to as proportionality. The problem is this. On the Government's definition, paragraphs (a) and (b) of Clause 1(1) refer to conduct which does not necessarily give rise to a serious risk to the public at large. In the words of paragraph (a) it is conduct that,

"involves serious violence against any person or property",

and in (b),

"endangers the life of any person".

Then there is the word "or", and paragraph (c) refers to conduct which,

"creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public".

So only in paragraph (c) does one come for the first time to the idea of conduct that threatens the public at large. Is there not a problem with a definition of terrorism that triggers later in the Bill the use of very strong counter-terrorist powers to combat action that does not give rise to a serious threat to public wellbeing? Does it not create a potential problem under the European Convention on Human Rights when it comes to using those very wide and necessary powers to deal with conduct which does not threaten the public or a section of the public?

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. We have taken the view that the Bill is compatible with the convention and that serious violence against personal property or action that endangers the life of any person can in its outcome create a serious risk to the health and safety of the public or a section of the public. That is the important part of the definition and it is on that that we rely. I shall study the noble Lord's comments and reflect on them, but we are content that the provisions are compatible with ECHR considerations.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he reflect also on the fact that the Goodhart amendment is focused throughout on,

"directed against the public or a section of the public".

That is why that amendment ensures proportionality. Will the Minister reflect on that point when reading the debate?

I happily undertake to reflect on it. I make no promises in that regard. I should like to deal with the points as we work through the Bill.

Perhaps I may express some of the concerns that we have with the alternative definition suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. It provided a useful starting-point for debate. The noble Lord talked at some length about the use of the word "damage", not "violence", in connection with property. Mr John Rowe, the annual reviewer of the operation of the prevention of terrorism Act and the emergency provisions Act has suggested that "damage" is the more usual word to use in connection with property. We recognise that, but prefer the term "violence" because it is, we consider, more appropriate to the sort of conduct which is normally considered to be terrorism. Action which seriously damages property but does not involve serious violence—for example, graffiti, to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—might seriously damage a building and deserve punishment, but we are not persuaded that in itself it reaches the threshold to be considered terrorism. Therein lies one difficulty with that definition.

As to the injection of the words "intimidation" or,

"coercion of a government or the public element",

we consider those proposals to be undesirable. In most cases we think it would be unnecessary, as most terrorist acts are clearly done with the intention of causing fear or getting a government to change their policy on a particular issue. But cases could occur where it might not be obvious whether that was the case—for example, the bombing of an animal laboratory at night. In those circumstances it could not necessarily be safely argued that that was done to intimidate the public, as they would not be present; nor could it be safely argued that the intention was to coerce the government as the primary focus. Presumably, it would be to disrupt the work of the laboratory and the related commercial concern. Yet we would take the view that such actions are forms of terrorism. Similar considerations might apply in connection with a terrorist assassination attack. Depending on the victim, it might again be unsafe to assume that the intention was to intimidate the public, or government. Again, the target might be a commercial concern.

We presume that subsection (2)(a) is designed to catch interference with computer systems. But the formula "electronic systems" is very broad and would probably catch other systems perhaps not meant to fall within the ambit of the definition—for instance, CCTV systems or possibly even a public address system.

We recognise the concerns that underlie this amendment, particularly in the wake of the recent so-called "Love Bug". Subsection (1)(c) of Clause 1 is designed to cover any action (including, therefore, any computer-related action) which creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public. The Bill already covers the effects of some computer interference, but to go further and catch all computer interference would be a significant step which we would not take lightly and it would not be without its difficulties. Having said that, clearly this is an important issue, and I should like to reflect further on whether something more specific is required in the Bill. I shall advise the House of the outcome of our deliberations at Report stage. The noble Lord raises an important and significant issue.

The amendment provides in subsection (2)(c) that "violence" includes personal injury. We believe that that is also unnecessary as "violence" carries within it the concept of personal injury. Although it is ultimately a matter for the courts, we expect so-called punishment beatings to be caught by the phrase "serious violence". It is certainly not our intention to exclude such actions by raising the threshold to serious violence. The Committee will note that we have a number of concerns about this amendment. I hope that the noble Lord will reflect on the points that I have made and not press his amendment.

I turn next to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and in so doing I shall pick up some of the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley. At this stage the Government are not attracted by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord and his noble friends. We believe that the insertion of the term "unlawful" is an undesirable addition. We accept that the vast majority of terrorist acts are also unlawful: clearly, bombings, shootings and so on are criminal activities. Terrorists are criminals. But we can conceive of circumstances in which an act occurs, or even violence under the noble Lord's definition, that may not be unlawful. We believe that the definition would extend also to those acts. For example, given that the noble Lord's definition of "violence" includes interference with the functioning of electronic equipment, it is hypothetically possible that an employee may interfere with CCTV cameras, or even computers (with which we believe that part of the amendment is concerned). Depending on the employee's role in the firm and the nature of the interference, it is conceivable that that action may not be unlawful.

Take the example of subsection (1)(c) which deals with actions—under Clause 120 they include omissions—which create a serious risk to the health or safety of the public. An employee may deliberately omit to add a chemical to the sewerage system with the effect that public health is put at risk. Depending on the nature of his action and contract, that act may not be unlawful. We believe that it is wrong to create a situation in which a terrorist might escape prosecution on what would effectively be a technicality.

How does the Minister deal with the Kosovo problem? In that situation the Government and many members of the Armed Forces would be engaged in acts which, technically, would come within the definition of terrorism in this Bill?

That is a useful issue to raise. Understatement always helps! Obviously, this is a matter to which we have given careful consideration. We do not believe that those actions come within the definition.

The Kosovo problem, as it has been described, is a very real one. The noble Lord will recall that in my speech at Second Reading I referred to remarks made by my right honourable friend Tom King in another place in the course of debates on this Bill. My right honourable friend pointed out that during the Gulf war, when he was Secretary of State for Defence, he launched considerable violence, in the form of marine commandos and a number of extremely fierce aircraft, against other people. He believed that as Secretary of State for Defence he and those in the RAF and Royal Marines engaged in that action were involved in serious violence which was intended to coerce governments and so on. It seems to me, as it did to my right honourable friend, that that is an extremely serious problem. It may be that the Minister has had time to reflect on it a little further and is now able to make a contribution to this particular difficulty.

The noble Lord is very helpful. I said that I did not believe that our Armed Forces acting in the course of their duties would fall within the definition. The general principle in law is that statutes do not bind the Crown, unless by express provision or necessary implication. That covers the military and others in the service of the Crown. With one minor and fairly technical exception in Clause 118, the offences in the Terrorism Bill do not apply to Crown servants. I believe that that little difficulty is dealt with.

Perhaps I may pursue the matter a little further. The noble Lord assumes that the example of Kosovo is the only one where the lawfulness of the action is called into question. In English law there is the doctrine of necessity which was invoked in a case involving the hijacking of an aircraft of Sudan Airways. Although on the surface it was an act of terrorism, the defendants pleaded—I believe that the matter was successfully referred back to the House of Lords—that the appalling conditions in Iraq had caused them to take the step of hijacking the aircraft which allowed them to come to London. That defence was given serious consideration in the Court of Appeal and referred back to the House of Lords. If a person argued that he acted through "duress of circumstances"—that was the expression used by the Court of Appeal—according to the doctrine of necessity he would be acting lawfully. That set of circumstances is not taken into consideration in the definition.

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that that might be a defence in any future case. It is hard to foresee those circumstances. I understand and appreciate the virtue of the doctrine of necessity, and why it is argued, but the case that the noble Lord describes is effectively a situation of war. In those circumstances I believe that rather different rules apply.

The Minister suggested that Clause 118, which exempts Crown servants, might assist in this process. That clause refers entirely to Parts III and IV of the Bill and provides that,

"The Secretary of State may make regulations providing for sections 15 to 23 and 39 to apply to persons in the public service of the Crown".

The only provision that provides an exemption is in Clause 19. That is extremely limited and is concerned with the disclosure of information to do with financial offences. I do not believe that Clause 118 provides any assistance to the noble Lord in this particular case.

As to that issue, my understanding is that it is the only provision in the Bill which does not cover the normal rule. The important point is that it is an exception clause.

If the point of the noble Lord's amendment is to try to ensure that action taken in connection with a legitimate trade dispute is not caught, we are not sure that the amendment does the trick in any case. The term "unlawful" also covers torts and breaches of contract as well as criminal acts, and strikers can commit such acts in the course of industrial action. Indeed, they may also commit criminal offences such as obstructing the highway. So not only could the amendment prove to be overly restrictive, it might not fully achieve what it sets out to do.

We are also concerned that the definition proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is triggered where violence is directed against the public or a section of the public. I am aware that the limbs at (a) and (b) of the definition provide that this phrase covers circumstances where death, serious injury or a threat to the health of the public is caused, or where there is a threat to national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country. I have to say to noble Lords that at the very least such an approach puts an enormous strain on the phrase "directed against the public". I can think of examples of acts which would be caught through the limbs at (a) and (b) but which would in no ordinary sense of' the phrase he directed against the public—for instance, the assassination of an individual politician, or something like the bombing of the Grand Hotel during the Conservative Party conference. In both cases the Government would be more obviously the target than the public. Moreover, the way the formula is constructed means, I think, that other actions are excluded which the public might be more likely to feel were directed against them or at least actions which more directly affected them. I am thinking here of actions, for instance, against furriers, or sporting events like the Grand National. The bombing or a serious attack on such interests could impact more directly on some sections of the public than some of the actions caught by the formula as it stands. But they are not caught as I read it. We consider this to be a fairly fundamental weakness.

The amendment also provides that all interference with the functioning of electronic equipment, even if no damage is caused to the equipment, is caught within the definition, although the ensuing limbs at (a) and (b) limit the circumstances in which it applies. The formula chosen is very wide and may catch activity that it is not intended to catch—for instance, tampering with CCTV cameras. And we are not sure that the syntax of the amendment quite works here. However, setting aside those essentially technical points, as I indicated, we have considerable sympathy with the concerns underlying the proposal. Recent events have demonstrated the effect that computer viruses can have on a whole range of interests and systems.

More fundamentally, we have significant concerns about the ground covered by limbs (a) and (b) of the amendment. In particular, we are concerned that it is too narrow. As I have already touched upon, our reading is that bombs or other attacks which seriously damaged, or even destroyed, commercial or private interests would not be caught within this definition if there were no risk to life or the health of the public, or if there were no threat to national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country or part of the country. I think that such a distinction is wrong in policy terms because bombs or other attacks which destroy animal laboratories, synagogues or symbolic buildings such as perhaps Stormont should be caught even if the perpetrators undertake the attacks carefully at night so that there is no serious risk to life. To me, and I think to many others, such attacks would constitute terrorism but the definition in the amendment would not necessarily cover them.

I also think that this part of the amendment is wrong on pragmatic grounds. As we have already observed, one of the main purposes of the definition is to indicate when anti-terrorist powers may be used. The police view is that it could seriously hinder their operational effectiveness in combating terrorism if they could only use their powers once they were persuaded that there was a risk to life or the equivalent. Valuable time could be lost before sufficient intelligence or evidence emerged to confirm that life was likely to be threatened and the police ability to respond would be reduced accordingly. There is no reason, we believe, in policy terms why a distinction should be drawn between actions which seriously damage property and those which injure people and we believe that creating such a distinction could have serious operational consequences for the police.

A number of points were raised by Members of the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, referred to the G8 meeting in Paris on computer crime. I understand that that is part of a regular meeting of a high-tech crime sub-group of the G8 countries on transnational organised crime. Its focus suggests that it is organised crime rather than just terrorism but improvements for international co-operation in this area may have considerably wider benefits.

I shall have to write to my noble friend Lord Taylor of Gryfe on the specific case he raised. I was grateful to my noble friend for his contribution on the definitions of terrorism at international level. The Scottish case is interesting. The Government are satisfied that their possession of nuclear weapons is entirely consistent with international law. There can surely be no dispute that damaging computers on a submarine should be capable of being caught by the criminal law. The question as regards computers is an important issue.

I hope that I have covered the points raised. If I have missed something, no doubt noble Lords will not hesitate to mention it. I shall be happy to take their points further if I can.

I apologise for troubling the Minister again, but I asked him to consider the compatibility of the definition in Clause 1 with that of a terrorist act overseas in Clause 59(2)(e) which limits the damage to property to an offence under Section 1(2) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971, endangering life by damaging property.

Why should the definition of the damage to property be more limited in terrorist acts overseas than domestically? What is the Government's reason for having a different definition of terrorism according to where the act is committed?

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his sharp reading of the Bill. I do not think that one definition counters another. However, I shall study the provision more closely and, if possible, deal with it at greater length.

The Minister may wish to reflect on this. The answer to my noble friend may be that in Clause 59 the offence is predicated upon inciting another person,

"to commit an act of terrorism wholly or partly outside the United Kingdom, and … the act would, if committed in England and Wales, constitute one of the offences listed in subsection (2)".

The whole premise is that it is an act of terrorism within the definition in Clause 1. Therefore the definition does not seem wider in respect of an act committed overseas than an act committed in this country. I do not know whether the Minister has a view on that.

The noble Lord has the benefit of being a noble and learned Lord. I suspect that his interpretation is right. That was my understanding and reading of the relationship between those two clauses.

I am sure the whole Committee was enormously encouraged when about two minutes into his speech, the Minister went into what I call "Fagin" mode, saying that "he thinks he'd better think it out again". After the debate on the various definitions in Clause 11 am sure he is right to do so.

However, from that point on his speech degenerated somewhat. He started to chip away at the various arguments advanced. I do not mind that because presumably he was setting his own parameters as to what he would or would not consider. That is fair enough. However, he made two remarks which somewhat surprised me: first, that in his view graffiti would not be violence against property; and, secondly, that the bombing of an animal laboratory at night might well come into the same category. However, although no one has yet referred to it, subsection (3) of Clause 1 states:

"In this Act a reference to action taken for the purposes of terrorism includes a reference to action taken for the benefit of a proscribed organisation".

Therefore, were the two cases exemplified by the Minister to be committed by members of, or in furtherance of, a proscribed organisation they would come automatically under the Bill's classification of terrorism. Therefore, in his Fagin mode, which he says he will go into, will he be good enough to consider the effects of subsection (3) on any consideration that he gives to subsections (1) and (2)?

Before the Minister replies to that, he twice mentioned the bombing of animal laboratories by night so as not to cause human casualties. I believe that he mentioned that in defence of the Government's definition. Will he accept that such actions could be properly dealt with under statutes concerned with causing explosions, arson or criminal damage? Those were the types of issue that I had in mind when I argued at Second Reading that the Bill goes unnecessarily wide.

I hope that I conveyed the impression to the Committee that we as a government have a fairly fixed view of what the definition should be, that that view is reflected in the Bill as it stands, but that, of course, we need to listen, as we always do, to the important points that are made in a debate such as this. No doubt many noble Lords are much better at definition than I am, particularly as I am a non-lawyer.

Particularly in respect of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I have indicated that we shall look very closely at the issue of computers and whether or not they need to be enclosed specifically within the definition that we have chosen. Of course, I undertake to reflect on all the various points made by Members of the Committee in the debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, again asked a question that he raised at Second Reading, and I believe that it bears some respect. In his contribution the noble Lord challenged me to look again at the relationship between Clause 3 and the other clauses with regard to the definition. I shall give further thought to that.

I return to my point about graffiti. Although it is certainly unpleasant and unsightly, I cannot think of any circumstances, certainly as we consider the matter this evening, in which one might consider it to be a form of terrorism. However, of course, we must all take serious note of the damage and distress that it causes. In effect, in many instances it is a form of criminal damage.

This has been a useful debate. I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, who said that he hoped that the debate would help us to focus down rather more when we come to consider the definition at Report stage. I suspect that that is what we shall be able to do. As I said, after giving further thought to the matter, I shall come back to the issue of computers and their place in any subsequent definition. Of course, I shall look carefully at the various points that have been made during the course of this useful debate.

I was happier with the Minister when he said that it was a thought-provoking debate and that he would give consideration to this and that than when he said to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale that the Government had a fixed view of what the definition should be. I hope that we have indeed succeeded in provoking thought on a number of the issues raised. I believe it is certain that we shall return to them later.

I hope that Members of the Committee will forgive me if I refer back to some of the points. I was attracted by the use of the word "unlawful", as supported by the Liberal Democrats' amendment and in their speeches, because of what was described as the "Kosovo problem". It seems to me that that is one area where further thought needs to be given.

However, the Minister also had my support when he talked about assassination. As I see it, one of the difficulties with the Liberal Democrat amendment is that it refers only to attacks on the public or a section of the public. I do not believe that one person can be a section of the public. During the time—

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for raising that point. I believe that that is a fair criticism of our definition. If we are to bring back this matter on Report, it certainly needs to be looked at again to ensure that it covers that point.

I was about to say that during my time as a Member of another place, four Members of Parliament were murdered by the IRA; three of them in individual assassinations, as noble Lords will recall, and one at the Grand Hotel in Brighton. Those specific assassinations were, by anyone's definition, designed absolutely for terrorist purposes.

So far as concerns the bombing of the Grand Hotel, it seems to me that that was an attack on a section of the public. The Minister seemed to suggest that it was not. It was an attack not only on members of the government and Members of Parliament, but much of the damage and several of the deaths were inflicted on people who were either supporters of the Conservative Party, attending the conference or looking after the hotel. Many of the people involved were not members of the Conservative Party but were involved in other ways with the conference. It is obviously extremely important to include an action of that kind.

Some attention has been given in the debate to the question of whether damage to property should be included in the definition only if it endangers life and not if it simply damages property. As most Members of the Committee know, on a large number of occasions property in Northern Ireland has been damaged but there has been no loss of life or injury to people because warnings have been given with the deliberate intention of permitting the building in question to be cleared. Nevertheless, the action has been terrorist in purpose and it has been applied by both sides. I do not make a partisan point, as it were, in the Northern Ireland context in drawing attention to that point.

Other terrorist actions, such as letting off bombs or firing guns in the course of training, obviously do not hurt anyone. They take place deliberately in the most remote spot possible in order that terrorists may refine their weapons, for example, mortars, and so on, and refine their techniques in using those weapons. Those are definitely terrorist actions in anyone's book and should, I believe, be covered in this case.

Therefore, I believe that a considerable amount of serious damage to property takes place which nevertheless does not kill or injure people and, in fact, is not intended to do so. Of course, from time to time people have been injured or killed as a result of action which was not intended to injure or kill but did so because the warning was insufficiently specific or because of other reasons.

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned the recent daubing of the statue of Sir Winston Churchill. Quite frankly, that does not seem to me to be covered by any of the definitions on offer this afternoon; nor should it be. It was, of course, highly offensive and misguided and no doubt constituted criminal damage. However, that is different from saying that it should be covered within the definition of terrorism.

In talking about electronic systems, the Minister seemed to dismiss an attack on closed circuit television systems, which are included in the definition that I have put forward of electronic systems, but are not in some of the other definitions that are available. I am sure that some Members of the Committee realise that in Northern Ireland closed circuit television has been an absolutely vital protection against attack. Every police station in Northern Ireland has elaborate systems to monitor, for example, car parks and other areas to ensure that the police are aware if a mortar is placed in a position from which it could be fired at a police station. To damage a closed circuit television system of that kind is a terrorist act.

I want to seek some clarification. Is it the noble Lord's intention to include CCTV systems with that amendment? Was that a deliberate intention in moving the amendment because that is something extra to the way in which we originally understood it?

I think that all these electronic systems can be the subject of terrorist attack. I do not think it is simply confined to computer systems. One has to be careful because nowadays television systems are controlled by computers. More or less every electronic system, including motor cars and all sorts of things, are controlled by chips and computers and so on. A reference to computers probably covers most of those things as well.

There are also computers containing police intelligence which is an extremely important point. There was a big attack on the forensic science laboratory in Northern Ireland while I was a Minister there. That is an example of trying to attack those who are dealing with terrorism, making their lives much more difficult and their efforts less effective.

There is the big point, as I described it at the start, of whether or not the phrase "in some form" of intimidating and coercing the government, the public or any section of the public should be included, and whether the concept of fear should be included. The Minister said in his comments that they started by building on the Protection against Terrorism Act, a definition of putting the public in fear, but what they have done in this definition is to take out the concept of putting the public in fear. There are different ways in which one can express it. They have taken out the concept from the definition. That is something about which I think the Minister and his colleagues should reflect very carefully in the course of further consideration of this definition. It is a very important definition, as we have all agreed. It is a very difficult definition, as we have all agreed. We are all agreed also that we want, if possible, to have an agreed definition that will fulfil the desires which all of us share to a fair degree.

This has been an important debate and we look forward to hearing the results of the Minister's reflections. I will certainly be reflecting further on the issues that have been discussed and the points made. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 1.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I should point out to the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 3.

moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 1, line 7, after ("threat,") insert ("of action which is, or appears to be,").

I suspect that we have all been making faster progress.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. He has clarified the meaning of the amendment. It would appear to us that it is an action designed to be covered in his "definitional" thinking for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause where a judgment has to be made.

We have some sympathy with the spirit behind the amendment which we take to ensure that police and others can be confident that they can act even if they are not 100 per cent sure whether a qualifying motivation is present as long as such motivation appears to be present. I trust that is the right understanding of the proposal.

Yes.

It is important that the police are not needlessly deterred from acting to combat terrorism. However, we believe on reflection that the amendment is unnecessary. As we see it, provided the police are able to advance a reasonable case for their belief that a qualifying motive was present this should he sufficient. The fact that there have been no difficulties to the application of the current definition, which does speak of the use of violence for political ends without qualification, underlines that there may not be a difficulty in practice. I think we should rely on that.

Furthermore, I am concerned that inserting the concept of "appears" into the definition might give rise to uncertainty and drafting difficulties. I ask the question: how would it work in the context of the terrorist property provisions where the test might then be whether the funds in question were being used for the purposes of an action which is or appears to be done to advance a political, religious or ideological cause? We think that there could be difficulties in applying the "appears to" concept in the context of the decision about the proscription of groups.

I am not persuaded that the approach proposed by the noble Lord in his amendment, which I am sure was intended to be helpful, would work in all the contexts linked into the definition of the Bill.

I hope that on the basis of that explanation the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Does the noble Lord agree with me that Part V of the Bill dealing with counter-terrorist powers gives necessary latitude because, for example, in Clause 41 it provides:

"A constable may arrest without a warrant a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist."

Similarly, a magistrate under Clause 42 may—

"issue a warrant … if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting …"

and so on. Is not the point made by the Minister buttressed by Part V, making this amendment unnecessary?

The noble Lord, as ever, has been very helpful. My understanding of those clauses is that they do provide that necessary flexibility. In a sense, that is what we require in the operation of this part of the legislation. I think that there will be common consent and agreement around the House to that point.

One always learns something in this House in the course of these debates. I will certainly reflect on what has been said on this amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 10:

Page 1, line 14, at end insert ("except in countries with which the United Kingdom is at war,").

The noble Lord, Lord Cope, mentioned the Kosovo problem. But is it not the case that the United Kingdom was never formally at war with Serbia?

That is one reason why I am not sure that my definition is entirely satisfactory.

This is a very difficult series of points. I did not move my Amendment No. 9 because I thought that it might be better to raise the issue in the rather wider context of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. It goes back further than the noble Lord suggested. Members of the Committee on the Liberal Benches will remember that Mr Campbell-Bannerman asked the very pertinent question, "When is a war not a war?" in his famous speech at the Guildhall. He answered by saying, "When it is waged by methods of barbarism". A whole can of worms is being opened here in relation to how much we should apply to these matters when war is either declared or has not been declared.

To a certain extent, where war has been declared, we are governed by the Geneva Conventions. But it is important that the law of the land states what should be done under most conceivable circumstances and I look forward to hearing what the Government have to say. I certainly look forward to arriving at something rather more satisfactory by Report stage.

As Amendment No. 9 was not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, I can considerably shorten my reply to this group of amendments. I deal solely with Amendment No. 10 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. Indeed, some of what I have to say was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Bassam in reply to the long debate on the first group of amendments.

The Government are right in assuming that the intention behind the amendment—indeed, it has been made clear by the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley—is to ensure that the Bill does not cover the legitimate acts of our Armed Forces and those supporting them in times of war. We believe that we can offer strong reassurance as to that.

First, as a general principle, we believe that it would be difficult to reach the conclusion that our Armed Forces, when acting in the course of their duties in an armed conflict, could be held to come within the definition of terrorism in the Bill. Taking it further, I repeat now the general principle in law that statutes do not bind the Crown unless by express provision or necessary implication. Of course, the Crown covers the military as well as others in the service of the Crown.

In this Bill, there is one minor and fairly technical exception in Clause 118, which has already been referred to. Apart from that, the offences in the Terrorism Bill will not apply to Crown servants and, therefore, would not affect our troops at a time of war. Those are my general comments on the amendment.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. While I can see that the Bill may not apply to Crown servants on the grounds that they are entitled to Crown exemption, it would potentially apply (would it not?) to members of the armed forces of France or the US.

I shall now have to go back to part of the answer which I thought I could get away with not giving because of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, not moving his Amendment No. 9. I shall return to that before I sit down.

I deal with the difficulties of the wording of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. First, as it stands, it would not just cover our Armed Forces but would also exempt from prosecution in courts in the United Kingdom any terrorist act committed in a state with which we were engaged in armed conflict. That would cut across our international obligations, particularly the Terrorist Bombing Convention, to submit for prosecution any alleged terrorists in the UK whom we do not extradite for prosecution elsewhere.

We believe that two other technical defects have been identified. We no longer speak of war but rather of armed conflict. That is a very minor point. Another is that the terms in which the amendment has been drafted means that it is not clear whether the act would have to be committed during the conflict or whether the exception could be back-dated to apply to an act committed before the conflict began.

I accept at once that those last two points are genuinely technical. The real point behind the noble Lord's amendment is understood. However, we believe that we have answered that by the Crown not being bound and also that it is difficult to conclude that our Armed Forces could, when acting in the course of their duties, be held to come within the definition of terrorism.

I deal now with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart; in other words, that allied forces might be liable under the Bill. The position there is really linked with that difficult issue of freedom fighter or terrorist.

Without going into the full arguments as far as that is concerned, that brings us up against potentially hard cases. Where significant proportions of the population have sympathy with the objectives pursued by, for example, our allies, we could not say, under the definition of terrorism in the Bill, that offences were not being committed. It may well be that offences are being committed.

We do not believe that the intention behind the acts, however worthy or understandable, would somehow make those unlawful acts lawful; how could they? But we recognise that in certain cases—this really would be our line—there are public interest considerations that should be borne in mind in considering whether prosecution should ever be started or continued.

Before the noble Lord comes in on that point, perhaps I may say that I am speaking more about organisations in foreign countries that commit acts which, while being terrorist acts by the standards of the Bill, are acts which may well have some support in this country, than I am, perhaps, about, for example, allied troops. However, the same might apply. There is a future debate to be had on who should decide on the prosecution; whether it should be the Director of Public Prosecutions or the Attorney-General. I hope Members of the Committee will listen carefully when I say that we are considering that matter with care before we reach the necessary amendments. We are considering it sympathetically in terms of it being the Attorney-General. I make no commitment, but that is an issue to which we will come in due course.

I am grateful to the Minister. I was about to raise that very point. I seem to recall the right honourable Douglas Hogg in another place focusing on the fact that many of the bombing acts of the ANC in the mid-1980s fall within this definition. We are dealing with a highly political public interest choice which has to be made.

May I take it, without any commitment on the part of the Government, that when we come to Amendment No. 176 tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Goodhart, which indicates that the Attorney-General is the right public officer to make that public interest decision rather than the Director of Public Prosecutions, that this might be a way forward, rather than tampering with definitions and trying to grasp an amoeba, which is difficult? This is not the sort of matter which one would normally leave to the Attorney-General to decide upon in the public interest.

I shall not go into the interesting debate that no doubt we shall have on that amendment. I have said, and I stand by it, that we will look sympathetically at the terms of that amendment. I hope that will satisfy the noble Lord for today.

In attempting to answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I raise these matters because they are relevant. However, they are perhaps best covered by repeating what I said: it would be hard to conclude that our Armed Forces—perhaps it could even read "our allies' armed forces"—when acting in the course of their duties in an armed conflict, could be held to come within the definition of terrorism in the Bill. That is the other limb upon which it could be argued that the issue raised by the noble Lord may not be such an issue in practice as it is in theory.

However, I have gone off the track to answer the nobne Lord, Lord Goodhart. I believe my noble friend may have a searching question.

I am not sure that it is searching, and I IN as not sure of the moment to raise it. I wonder whether, in the view of my noble friend the Minister, there is an additional problem posed by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. The amendment focuses on the place where the action is taken, whereas I believe what he had in mind was the question of against whom the action is directed. As it stands, the amendment, if passed, would prevent it being terrorism if people took action in a country with which we were at war but which was directed at our own citizens, for example. I suggest that that is not what the Act had in mind. That was the question I was thinking about asking when my noble friend the Minister suggested I should rise.

I shall think about replying to it, and I shall put it to the noble Lord, Lord Cope. There is a final word I should like to say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. We do not think the definition covers any lawful action in armed conflict. It really is unlikely that a court would call the actions to which he referred terrorism; but it may be even at a stage before that. Then, obviously no prosecution would take place.

I hope that I have satisfied the noble Lord, Lord Cope, with my answer to his amendment. We do not think that the amendment is necessary. We do not think that there is any danger in the real world of our Armed Forces finding themselves liable under the Bill.

I am sure that the Committee will be relieved to hear that there is not any danger that members of the Armed Forces would be liable to prosecution under the provisions of the Bill.

The Minister reminded us that we no longer speak about being at war but about being in a conflict situation. In my mind that raises the question of what happens in the countries where we are engaged in either peacekeeping or peace supporting operations. A particular example that springs to mind at present is that of our forces in Sierra Leone. According to what the Minister told the Committee, nothing that our forces do in Sierra Leone could possibly be the subject of proceedings under the Bill.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Goodhart, he also stated that he thought the consent of the Attorney-General or whoever it may be, to a prosecution, would mean that acts committed by forces allied to the United Kingdom would also not be subject to prosecution under the Bill. Therefore, the Bangladeshis or the Indians, for instance, who are serving with the UNAMSIL forces in Sierra Leone would be able to engage in armed acts against the rebel RUF without there being any threat of prosecution.

In my mind that raises the possibility of the extension of the United Kingdom's jurisdiction to acts committed by the terrorist organisations. Are we saying that if, for instance, Mr Foday Sankoh, the leader of the RUF, set foot in the United Kingdom we could bring proceedings against him under the Bill, or that any armed opposition to a government, whether in Sierra Leone or any other part of the world, which is committing acts specified in Clause I would render itself liable to jurisdiction in this country?

If that is what we are saying, the Bill represents a large extension of our extra-territorial jurisdiction. The Attorney-General recently reaffirmed to me that that was not the intention of the Government. He said that we still maintain that any extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction would have to be justified on the same criteria as were contained in the assessment by the Home Office of extra-territorial jurisdiction which was produced, I believe, in the summer before this Government came into office. They relied on that when I introduced a Bill in this House to extend our jurisdiction to acts committed under common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which at the time the Government opposed.

In a recent answer to me in a letter, the Attorney-General stated that it was now the intention of the Government, when they come to legislate on the international communal courts statute to take powers to criminalise Article 3 acts. I welcome that and I am very pleased that they have come round to my point of view.

However, here we are under this Bill embarking on an enormous extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction and there has been no discussion at all, as far as I am aware, on the principle of the matter. They have departed from the policy of both this Government hitherto and their predecessors in office. I think that requires an examination by your Lordships at this stage. This will be the only opportunity that we have of doing so.

I do not want disappoint the noble Lord, but I have really little to say about this. The definition of terrorism in Clause 1 of course does not create an offence in itself. The Bill creates offences further on, and we will come to those in due course. At the moment I certainly do not want to talk about the situation in Sierra Leone: that is not what I am briefed to do and I think it would be unfortunate if I were to do so. Obviously any person, whoever it may be, has to commit an offence under this Bill to be caught.

The Bill has tidied up the previous position under the two Acts, so that the definition of terrorism applies to acts that take place anywhere in the world. However, it is of course vital that if we are to prosecute anyone it would have to be in regard to offences created by this Bill. I will leave the point there.

Not for the first time, I am glad that I did not make exaggerated claims for the drafting of this particular amendment, Amendment No. 10, particularly in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, had to say a few moments ago. I think that the noble Lord the Minister has got out of the "armed forces" difficulty. He has explained the solution to that. However, I am less clear about the position of other civilians who might be involved. I am not sure whether their position is as clear.

He referred a moment ago to the definition having been "tidied up" by its extension to anywhere in the world. If I may say so, I think that it is rather more than a mere "tidying up", but I do not think I need to pursue that at this moment. It is clear that we shall return later to this general point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I am not sure whether I am the only Member of the Committee who finds the drafting of this particular Bill incredibly difficult. On the face of it, Clause 2 says that the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 and the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996 shall cease to have effect. That is backed up by, I think, Schedule 16 much later in the Bill. Then one goes on to read about Schedule 1, which the Committee is just about to study, which concerns the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act: that is a partial continuance schedule. One can readily understand that. It flows, as it were, in a logical sequence.

However, one discovers on further reading of the Bill that the 1989 Act itself is not abandoned at all. For example, it creeps into Clause 128, and some of the definitions and procedures in that temporary provisions Act appear in other clauses in this Bill. Would not this Bill, when passed into law, have been far simpler and easier to read by lawyers and others had the appropriate parts of Clause 128 been made into a schedule, to go between Schedules 1 and 2?

I may have been a little indulgent in speaking about this now but, with a bit of luck, the answers I hope to be given will mean that I need not move my amendments to Clause 11, and that will save time.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, because I think this is more than just a drafting point. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which I mentioned earlier, has stated its belief that there is no need for this provision—that is Clause 2—given the powers contained in Part VII of this Bill. It goes on to say that it believes the EPA should be repealed and not replaced. I hope the Government will give that some serious thought.

Let me say first of all what Clause 2 intends to do. It has two purposes. First, it repeals the PTA and the EPA, whose provisions are due to be replaced by this Bill. Secondly, it gives effect to Schedule 1, which we shall come on to in a moment, to continue in force the EPA, with some amendments, until the provisions of the Bill are brought into force: in other words, they are transitional essentials. This is an essential transitional proposal for Northern Ireland.

The current EPA would expire on the 24th August this year. Unless it is continued by Clause 2 there will be a gap between those provisions expiring and the coming into force of the Terrorism Bill. It is not practical to assume that the Bill's provisions could be commenced at Royal Assent, given, for example, the need for the police to familiarise themselves with the new powers and procedures. As I say, the two Acts are repealed by Clause 2, but these transitional provisions are needed and they are set out in the clause to which the noble Lord refers, Clause 128. For example, they are needed where prosecution is begun under the PTA before the Act comes into force.

Will the noble Lord give way? I am grateful to him. I was not complaining about the need, but about the way it has been done. In Clause 2 there is a cross-reference, quite rightly, to Schedule 1, but again there is no cross-reference, for example, to Clause 128, and the whole thing seems to me to be totally illogical.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has a great deal of experience. We will look at that and come back on it, if we may.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Schedule 1 [Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996]:

moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 61, line 30, leave out ("the passing of this Act") and insert ("14th June 2000").

I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister. Once an amendment has been spoken to in so many words, it really must be moved to allow a speaker to get in, should he or she want to, and question the Minister; otherwise the opportunity disappears for all time—or, if not for all time, at least until the next stage of the Bill—which is a pity.

The Minister went into all sorts of contortions explaining why he was not going to move the amendment, but the explanation seemed to me to revolve around it not being a feasible option to have the Bill on the statute book by 14th June or whatever the right date is or will be.

The renewal is due on 15th June. The expiry date will be 24th August.

At least we have our dates sorted out. Nonetheless, the Minister's reason for saying he did not intend moving the amendment appeared to be the reason for tabling the amendment. So I was totally lost in his argument. I am all for having a date and I am all for having the right date, but it may be that the real reason is that in this amendment the date is wrong. Be that as it may, it would leave things to an enormous amount of chance to leave the words,

"the passing of this Act",

where they are in the Bill. There must be a date of some sort.

Before the noble Lord sits down, does he agree that the Minister correctly explained to the Committee that there must not be a gap between the work we are now doing and the date when the new Act comes into force in relation to pending criminal proceedings? What is commendable about the Government's approach is that they are seeking to achieve certainty, but not in the way that one would do if this matter were not complicated, because it is complicated and one is trying to move from temporary to permanent legislation. Therefore, though I may not have drafted the whole of this Bill precisely in the way it has been drafted, the Minister's answer reassures us that there will not be a gap and that we will have complete certainty. In those circumstances we should not cavil about this.

Cavilling or not, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for what he said in that short intervention. I agree that it is important that there should be no gap. I hope that the words in the Bill as unamended will ensure that; but I shall have to look carefully at what the Minister said because, from what I believe he said, I doubt that they will.

The Government's view is that they will ensure exactly that. The noble Lord need not he too worried about this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 14:

Page 62, line 38, after ("Lord Chancellor") insert ("by statutory instrument").

moved Amendment No. 15:

Page 2, line 16, leave out paragraph (c).

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for flushing us out on this matter and I shall happily give an explanation.

Clause 3 provides the Secretary of State's power to proscribe and deproscribe organisations. As such, it is fundamental to the operation of Part II of the Bill. Amendment No. 15 cannot be accepted because the power which it would delete is necessary to the proper working of the proscription regime.

Proscribing and deproscribing organisations is normally done by adding organisations to or taking them away from Schedule 2. However, it is also necessary for the Secretary of State to be able to amend the schedule in some other way. The reason is that he may need to add, remove or amend a note such as is referred to in subsection (2) of Clause 3.

The use of notes in Schedule 2 is a drafting innovation, but is intended to achieve the same effect as the current legislation. In the Northern Ireland (Emergency Powers) Act 1996, the corresponding schedule includes an entry for,

"the organisation using the name 'The Orange Volunteers' and being the organisation in whose name a statement described as a press release was published on 14th October 1998".

While the intention of that entry is clear enough, we felt that there was a risk of confusion and even some contradiction between it and the general principle now in Clause 3(1)(b); that is, if an organisation is proscribed, so are all other organisations operating under the same name. The approach taken by the Bill is therefore to explain the particular case of the Orange Volunteers by means of a note to Schedule 2 and, in Clause 3(2), to disapply the general principle in this particular case.

That is why it is important that the Secretary of State can not only add to and subtract from the schedule, but can also amend it in other ways. We do not expect that there will be much need to use the power in Clause 3(3)(c) since, as I have just said, it has its origin in what is very much a one-off case. Nevertheless, since the precedent has now been set, we see the Clause 3(3)(c) power as an essential part of the package. I hope therefore that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment on this point.

As a member of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee, we rather suspected that that might be the answer to why this provision was included in the Bill. The purposes for which it is proposed seem to be acceptable and it is not likely that the committee need have any further concern with this matter. But I am glad that that has been placed on the record.

In view of the explanation given by the Minister and the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 16:

Page 2, line 19, at end insert—

("(4A) The Secretary of State may exercise his power under subsection (3)(b) in respect of an organisation only if he believes that it is not currently concerned in terrorism.").

This is, perhaps, a convenient opportunity for me to raise a point that worries me a little; namely, that in the Explanatory Notes we are told that the Government are considering which organisations involved in international terrorism might be added to the schedule. However, as far as I know, the Government have given no indication as to which organisations they have in mind. For example, will they include all the organisations that are listed in the US State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism,> the 1999 edition of which was published last month? Alternatively, if we do not take a ready-made list like the one to which I just referred, can the Minister give any indication of what principles will be applied?

Many organisations operate in the United Kingdom which some people may say are front organisations for terrorists. Perhaps I may give the Committee one example. Many people have complained about the activities of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, which operates under a pseudonym. Indeed, the High Commissioner for Sri Lanka has frequently complained about this organisation. He says that the British Government tolerate the activities of the LTTE in the UK and that they allow it to maintain offices, raise funds, and so on. Can the Minister say whether the I,TTE is one of the organisations that the Government are considering banning? It is named in the US State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, so we are not breaking any great secrets if we discuss the matter openly on the Floor of the Committee.

The Government cannot simply take the power to proscribe any organisation that comes into their mind; they must have some idea of what constitutes an organisation engaged in international terrorism and of what action they are likely to take against it if it has offices within the United Kingdom. We are talking about very extensive powers, and I believe that most Members of the Committee would agree that they are justifiable. But, before we leave this clause, I should be grateful if the Minister could give further information about how such powers will be used.

This is not only a worthwhile amendment but also a very necessary one. Surely it would be quite wrong for any governrnent to cave in to organisations currently concerned in terrorism. Of course, the drafting of the amendment may not be 100 per cent perfect; I do not know. Nevertheless, I hope that the Government will at least accept the principle behind the amendment. It will be rather alarming if they do not.

These amendments are very similar in effect to those moved in another place by Mr David Lidington on 20th January, so this debate has, so to speak, already taken place. As I understand it, the amendments seek to place a similar restriction on the circumstances in which the proscribed organisation appeals commission could recommend de-proscription.

I take most seriously the points made by all Members of the Committee on this issue. Clearly, we must think very carefully about such matters. We rejected the amendment moved by Mr Lidington, which would have provided that the Secretary of State "may exercise his power under subsection (3)(b) in respect of an organisation only if he believes that it has ceased to be concerned in terrorism." I shall give the reasons.

Under the Bill, proscription will be available for the first time for organisations concerned in international terrorism. I am reluctant to be drawn into listing and relying upon a US list relating to terrorism. We are carefully considering such matters. I am, of course, grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for drawing our attention to the 1999 US State Department listing, but, as I said, we wish to consider these matters most carefully.

It has to be said that it would be excessive to proscribe every organisation in the world that is concerned with terrorism. However, I can give the noble Lord sonic idea of the factors that will be taken into account, which are fairly obvious. First, we would have to consider carefully the nature and scale of the group's activities; secondly, we would have to look al the specific threat that it posed to the United Kingdom and our citizens abroad, which is clearly a very important consideration, as well as the extent of its presence in this country. Indeed, the noble Lord drew our attention to one group which may, or may not, fall into that category. Thirdly, we would also have to consider our responsibility to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism. That has to be very important.

I am sure that those with long experience of such matters, like the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Cope of Berkeley, will recognise the role that we have to play within the wider international community in this respect. In that context, it is conceivable—and I stress only "conceivable"—that an organisation might cease to be a candidate for proscription in the UK without actually ceasing to be concerned in terrorism. It is conceivable, but we must leave it at that point.

The amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Cope, and others differ from those put forward by Mr Lidington in that their amendments require the Secretary of State to believe that the organisation is not currently concerned in terrorism. Therefore, under these amendments, the Secretary of State could de-proscribe an organisation which might not have entirely ceased to be concerned in terrorism—but only so long as he believed that the organisation was,

"not currently concerned in terrorism".

The arguments that we advanced in another place still apply to this version of the amendment. The Government believe that the hands of the Secretary of State should not be tied. As I stressed earlier, that is particularly important given our commitments in the field of tackling international terrorism where it is conceivable that, on balance, the Secretary of State might wish to de-proscribe an organisation which is concerned in terrorism.

As we have said, the Secretary of State will take his responsibilities very seriously. But it is right to ensure that the Secretary of State can weigh up all the relevant factors without being constrained in the manner contemplated by these amendments. With that explanation and the reassurance that we shall pay very close attention to these matters, I trust that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

I thank the Minister for that explanation. Despite the international world of terrorism that exists, I, too, was somewhat surprised to find that the only organisations on the proscribed list were Irish. In fact, I attempted to put together an amendment that would include some other organisations that might well be put on the proscribed list. I pursued my inquiries through routes that I have trodden before in a different life. However, the people concerned were rather loath to let me have a list of suggested terrorist organisations that might be included on that proscribed list to be used in this context; but there is a list. I am sure that the Minister has access to whatever professional expertise that he needs in that field. Our intelligence forces have considerable expertise. I accept that any government with access to such expertise should be able, with that advice, to make a decision to remove, or not to remove, an organisation from the list. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 18:

Page 2, line 32, after ("regulations") insert (", after consulting the Advocate General,").

These amendments would build in statutory requirements for the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor to consult with certain Scottish office-bearers before exercising powers under the Bill. As the noble Lord knows, terrorist matters are reserved matters. However, he is correct to say that the Scottish dimension will always be important. It is obviously the intention of noble Lords to ensure that that dimension is properly reflected in the exercise of these powers. The Government are aware that the Law Society of Scotland has proposed that the Bill be amended along these lines.

Strictly speaking, all these amendments are unnecessary. The Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor will, in any event, take account of any distinctive Scottish dimensions in exercising these powers. The positions of the two Scottish offices in question are, however, slightly different. The Advocate General for Scotland is a United Kingdom Government law officer. She is the legal adviser to the Cabinet on Scottish law—the equivalent of the Attorney-General as regards other matters. As such, any Secretary of State would consult her and, no doubt, the Attorney-General, as a matter of course on the making of regulations such as those in Clauses 4 and 118. This procedure is internal to the Government and we see no need whatsoever to spell it out on the face of the legislation. There is also a technical deficiency with Amendments Nos. 18 and 177 in that the reference should be to the "Advocate General for Scotland".

The case of the Lord President of the Court of Session is slightly different. He is the most senior judge in Scotland, and so he is not, of course, part of the Government. The Lord Chancellor would normally consult him on matters of the kind set out in Schedule 3. But we are prepared to consider further whether there would be any advantage in requiring this on the face of the Bill.

We wish to take away Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 and consider them further. We hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing Amendments Nos. 18 and 177 on the basis of the arguments that I have deployed.

I am encouraged by the Government's response to Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 and by their explanation of the other amendments in the group. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 19:

Page 2, line 37, at end insert—

("(c) require the Secretary of State to publicise the application, and

(d) provide for representations by other interested parties to be made in favour of, or against. the application within a reasonable time.").

A little later we shall consider possible rights of appeal against the proscription, as distinct from the deproscription, of political organisations. However, this seems to me to be the right point at which to raise a particular matter with the Minister. I do not expect him to respond to it this evening.

As I understand it, the Government committed themselves— I commend them on this—as regards statements of compatibility under Section 19 of the Human Rights Act, to the proposition that the Minister in charge of the Bill will explain in the course of debates on the Bill the reasons for his views on the compatibility of the Bill.

In relation to proscribing and deproscribing terrorist organisations, the matter that concerns me is the way in which the appeal rights are so circumscribed. The curious abridgement of the rights of appeal is the other side of the coin to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. How can this be compatible with the right to a fair trial and the determination of one's civil rights and obligations under Article 6, and perhaps under Article 14, of the European Convention on Human Rights?

If one looks at Clause 5(3), the right of appeal is to be,

"in the light of the principles applicable on an application for judicial review".

That is fine. I take it that when the Human Rights Act comes into force that will include an application for judicial review using the convention rights that are to he directly effective in our courts.

But when one comes to Schedule 3, which deals with the procedure for appeals, one notes that, under paragraph 5,

"The Lord Chancellor may make rules…regulating the exercise of the right of appeal to the Commission"

including making provision about the burden of proof and the admissibility of evidence.

Then, under paragraph 5(4)(a),

"provide for full particulars of the reasons for proscription or refusal to deproscribe to be withheld from the organisation or applicant concerned and from any person representing it or him".

I do not understand how there can be a fair hearing of the issue of whether to proscribe or deproscribe if the victim—this is the victim on the wrong side of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope—cannot know the reasons.

As I said, it is a detailed and important question. I would rather that the Minister had the opportunity to consider the answer and, perhaps at Report stage, explain the reasons for considering the Bill to be compatible in respect of the right to a fair hearing. I particularly have in mind not only Article 6, but the right to freedom of association under Article 11 of the convention.

One does not start with huge sympathy for these organisations, but, nevertheless, it is often the most unpopular people whose procedural and fairness rights we need to be vigilant about, even if they would be contemptuous of our rights. It is for that reason that I raise the issue now.

Perhaps I may deal first with the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I am grateful to him for the way in which he has raised this matter. I do not promise to give him a full response today—he is desirous that I do so perhaps at Report stage—but, having followed through his logic, it is obvious that he has raised a fair point.

We will of course write to the noble Lord but the important issue in this whole exercise—as I think he understands from some of his concluding comments about not having great sympathy for the organisations concerned—is to design a system which can protect sensitive intelligence. I suspect that that is part of the thinking behind the way in which the current schedule is drafted. However, I undertake to fully explore the issue that the noble Lord has quite properly raised.

Turning to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I recognise that the intention of these amendments is, as he plainly said, to open up the deproscription application and appeal processes to others who may claim an interest—in short, to make this a more public process. But there are limits to how public this can properly be. The Secretary of State's decisions will often take account of sensitive intelligence matters, to which I have referred, that cannot be published. I am sure that Members of the Committee will understand that. The Secretary of State must weigh all the available information and decide where, overall, the national interest lies. We believe that the processes are already as open as they can be and that it would be wrong to amend the Bill in the manner proposed.

Let me deal first with the proposal that third-party representations should be able to be made for or against proscription at both the application and appeal stages. In short, we believe this to be unnecessary.

So far as concerns representations against proscription, any person who is affected by the organisation's proscription can, in any case, apply for deproscription in his own right under Clause 4(2)(b). Organisations will doubtless seek to put together the best case that they can and to draw together such support as they can muster, both at the application and appeal stages.

On the other hand, there may be third parties who feel strongly that the organisation should remain proscribed for some of the reasons referred to by the noble Lord. There is of course nothing to stop them making their views known, whether publicly or privately, to the Secretary of State. He will have already a very clear sense of the strength of feeling that the victims of a terrorist organisation, or their families and those close to them, may well have in support of continuing proscription.

The Secretary of State will make his decision on the basis of all relevant information—but the decision cannot be reached through a process of public debate, with all the relevant material available to all concerned. For those reasons we think it would be wrong to formalise a system which might suggest otherwise. We do not agree that there should be a statutory right for third parties to be heard.

With that in mind, perhaps I may now deal with the proposal that the Secretary of State should publicise applications. This would, of course, provide a trigger for third party representations. We do not see it as appropriate for the Secretary of State to be required to publicise applications in any case. If an organisation or affected person wants to make their application known, they will doubtless be able to do so. We believe that it should be for the applicant to do this. There may well be particular sensitivities in the case of some individuals.

In many instances an organisation will publicise its application anyway. It will be representing itself as a legitimate group and might well try to seek support from the press, from the public and from others to that end. But, as I said, this is not a matter that can be settled by public debate. There therefore seems little advantage in seeking to prompt such debate.

We are persuaded neither of the benefit of a statutory right for third parties to make representations at either stage, nor of the need for applications to be publicised. I therefore hope that, having heard the points that I have made, which focus very much on the hard facts of the issue, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

My amendment does not seek an open process. There is nothing in the amendment to suggest that the application or the representations about it should be heard in public or argued out in a public forum such as a court of law. Of course I understand the point about intelligence information—the Secretary of State will make his decision very largely on information that he may not wish to disclose—but that is not what I am looking for. All that I seek is for those who may be victims of a particular organisation, or otherwise affected by it, to be in a position to make representations about why it should not be deproscribed. Amendment No. 21 makes a similar point.

The Minister said that there is nothing to stop them from making representations. I agree—there is nothing to stop them provided that the application has been made—but the application can be made secretly and, unless this amendment or one similar to it is agreed to, the Secretary of State has no obligation to publicise it. They are not going to make representations on the off-chance that there may have been an application to deproscribe.

The Minister does not seem to have answered the point. None the less, I do not propose to pursue the matter at this juncture and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5 [Deproscription: appeal]:

moved Amendment No. 20:

Page 2, line 39, at end insert—

("( ) Where an order has been made under section 3, the organisation may appeal to the Commission.").