asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, the United Kingdom is at the forefront of the international effort to tackle the heinous crime of trafficking in human beings. We have already signed the United Nations protocol on the prevention and suppression of trafficking and negotiated a European Union framework decision on trafficking for the purposes of sexual and labour exploitation. We are committed to introducing domestic legislation to give effect to those measures.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I declare an interest as a council member of Anti-Slavery International, which, as the Minister knows, is presently working hard on this subject to help the Home Office. Does the Minister agree that, according to Europol, the trafficking of women and children is increasing quite substantially in Europe and yet the United Kingdom has virtually no legislation, nor any planned, on the subject? I understand that some East European countries have such legislation. The Minister has spoken of the framework decision. Surely the European framework decision does nothing to enforce the law nor to protect the victims of such trafficking.

My Lords, a good amount of legislation is already on the statute book in respect of some of these issues. They are covered by several sections of the Sexual Offences Act 1956. Also a review of sexual offences was set up in 1999. A considerable amount of enforcement work is carried on at the present time with Project Reflex which was set up in March 2000 and which involves the National Crime Squad and the Immigration Service working together. There have been investigations and there have been prosecutions. However, there are gaps in the legislation.

The decision on the framework document will be expected at the Justice and Home Affairs Council on 28th February. Legislation covering offences set out in that document will have to be introduced within two years of the adoption of the framework decision. While I cannot say whether there will be legislation this year or next, once we have signed up to that decision we shall be committed to legislate within two years. That implies that if legislation is not brought forward in this parliamentary Session it will be in the next.

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the 66 children who have gone missing from West Sussex social services' register, probably into child trafficking, were all unaccompanied child asylum seekers? What can the Government do to protect unaccompanied child asylum seekers?

My Lords, a large number of unaccompanied children arrive as asylum seekers. In regard to the children in West Sussex, they were in the care of the social services department; they were not in immigration detention. It is alleged that members of their families collected them. We have carried out investigations. Following Project Reflex, from the end of February a new unit with dedicated teams will be fully operational at Gatwick and at Heathrow. It will be a combination of the Immigration Service and the National Crime Squad. As far as we are aware, investigations took place into what happened to those children. Some 200 were identified, but despite arrests, no prosecutions were issued due to kick of evidence and the unwillingness of the victims to give evidence.

My Lords, although, as the noble Lord said, legislation may be desirable, have the Government taken legal advice as to whether such a form of trafficking can be prosecuted as a form of slavery?

My Lords, trafficking, as opposed to smuggling, is a form of slavery. The definition of trafficking includes the exploitation of a person at a later date for sexual exploitation or labour market exploitation. That is not the issue in relation to the gap in the legislation. There are many Acts already on the statute book under which we can charge people if they are involved in facilitating that. We have carried out prosecutions. There have been 15 arrests in relation to facilitators; there have been seven convictions in the UK and six overseas. At the moment in this country trials relating to these offences are pending following investigations that have taken place since 2000.

My Lords, will the Minister join me in commending the West Sussex social services department for at least exercising its powers under Section 20 of the Children Act 1989 to provide safe accommodation for children thought to be at risk of trafficking? Will he also exonerate West Sussex social services from any blame for the children who have gone missing from its care? They were probably abducted and went, against their will, into the hands of the traffickers. Does the Minister consider that it is necessary to provide similar services in local authority areas that are situated around international airports? Will the Government make money available for that purpose?

My Lords, I hope that nothing that I have said has implied any criticism of West Sussex social services department. I did not intend to imply criticism. In relation to the children, it operated on the best available information. A young unaccompanied child arriving at an airport creates a difficult situation. Last summer I was present on one occasion when that happened. I sat in on the conversations with the Immigration Service and the social services who were being contacted because they could not be certain about the person who was collecting the child. Enormous care is taken in that respect. I hope that our new operation at Gatwick and at Heathrow—funded from SR2000—which will be fully operational later this month, and which will, in due course, be rolled out across the country, will meet the concerns of the noble Lord.

My Lords, while I welcome the reply that the Minister has given to my noble friend, can he confirm that the distinction that he has drawn between smuggling and trafficking in answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Renton, will be incorporated into the legislation when it is eventually laid before the House? Can he also confirm that so far we have perhaps underestimated the size of the problem? Notwithstanding the obvious scandal of children being seized from social services, regardless of who is to blame, in the light of reports by people like Carron Somerset, the recent comments of the head of the Vice Squad in London, the reports of Anti-Slavery International and the investigative reports recently undertaken by the BBC, does he agree that this is just the tip of a terrible iceberg?

My Lords, that may be the case, but without the evidence it is difficult to put numbers on it. We simply do not know. Regarding the definitional aspects of "trafficking" and "smuggling", we do currently distinguish between them, and I am certain that the new legislation will do so. Last week the Home Secretary announced that forecasting legislation will come before your Lordships' House in the near future. The penalties for those involved in trafficking will be raised from a maximum of 10 years to 14 years, in order to he on a par with those for drug trafficking.

My Lords, does the Minister accept that not all children who come to this country and are exploited are exploited by complete strangers? What are the Government's plans to protect children, such as Victoria Climbié, who come to this country and are exploited by relatives, however distant?

My Lords, yes, that is the case. People are exploited even for their social security benefits. I say to the noble Baroness that the best thing to do is to await the outcome of the public inquiry. I am sure that that will have recommendations which I hope—and everyone would trust—will be speedily acted upon.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, welcome as the news is of the Government's work to help this problem internationally and in Europe, not least of the problems that we face—which of course to a degree facilitates trafficking—is the relative ease with which in the past people have entered the country? They are perhaps not adequately checked or controlled or it is not made sure that they have a proper place to go to. If we tightened up that aspect of our administration, perhaps we would actually do a great deal to restrict the possibility of trafficking within this country.

My Lords, the noble Lord in some ways is raising a wider question. I do not want to hide behind the general reply, but many of these issues will be covered in the fairly extensive White Paper which the Government will be presenting to the House early next month.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they propose to provide additional assistance to the coal industry.

My Lords, the Government have spent nearly £140 million so far under the UK Coal Operating Aid Scheme. We currently have no plans to extend it, or to introduce a new scheme beyond July 2002.

Future policy will be informed by the PIU Energy Review, the Clean Coal Technology Review and the House of Lords' report into security of supply. If the conclusions of those reviews suggest that a further coal subsidy scheme may be appropriate, we shall of course give further consideration to the issue.

We are also working to ensure that the new EU regime gives us the flexibility to pay suitable types of aid if appropriate.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. The Government are to be congratulated on the much needed assistance which they have given recently, in spite of strong opposition from the European Union.

Is my noble friend aware that there are still some 6,000 jobs involved in what remains of the industry and that there is continuing pressure for more redundancies? Is he further aware that Britain's power stations are consuming more coal because of the new electricity trading arrangement, and that the extra 20 per cent of coal that is now being consumed comes entirely from imports? That is surely something that he is looking at. Is it the Government's intention to retain a British coal industry in the review that is taking place on the energy industry in this country?

My Lords, there is clearly a question of security of supply here. A strong case can be made for maintaining a level of coal-fired generation for that reason. It is more difficult to do that in terms of the coal supply because there is a wide diversity of coal supplies across the world. Therefore, it is difficult to argue on security of supply arguments. Our particular scheme very much related to the particular problems that the coal industry was facing at the time when it was introduced—there were low international coal prices; the introduction of NETA; and the lifting of the gas consents policies. These factors do not operate now. Therefore, any policy that we take forward will be in the light of the PIU report.

My Lords, will the Minister not agree that his reply produces a sense of déjà vu to quite a lot of us? Massive subsidies have been poured into the coal industry in this country and others for the last 40 years. The industry has consistently proved that it cannot compete with market forces. It is time that all governments woke up to this.

My Lords, the UK Coal Operating Aid Scheme was introduced to deal with a particular situation. As I have said, it had a number of very specific factors. It was clearly right at that moment to introduce the scheme to make certain that the industry, where it was viable—that was a key part of that scheme—would be able to survive that short-term situation. As I have also made clear, those short-term factors do not at this moment apply.

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the North East of England, where there used to be so many collieries, there is just one left? Ellington Colliery in east Northumberland is still producing 7,500 tonnes of quality coal every year. It has a direct workforce of 400 people with many more from associated companies. The pit also has an estimated supply available for the next seven years. Does the noble Lord appreciate that in an area of Northumberland—I happen to know it very well; I have lived there practically all my life—where new industry is very difficult to attract, that the continuance of coal production at Ellington will be very socially desirable?

My Lords, where coal-mining is viable, there is no problem. The problem arises if it is not viable in the long term. In such cases, we are concerned about the impact of any closure on coal communities. That is why the Government introduced a series of schemes originating from the Coalfields Task Force. The Coalfields Enterprise Fund and the Coalfields Regeneration Trust were introduced to help communities that were affected by coal closures. During the time that the Government have been in power, the number of coal-miners has not decreased enormously, whereas, under the previous government, it declined from 230,000 to something like 7,000.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the most important ways in which the Government could assist the coal industry is to set up without delay a clean coal technology plant, together with CO₂ separation? That process has been developed successfully in other countries, and, if developed over here, it would open up an exciting new chapter in the long history of the coal industry, put it on an equal footing with renewables and contribute substantially to the Government's climate change objectives.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, and I have debated the question of clean coal technology; it is an extremely important issue. On the energy side, it is important to show that we can have generation with clean coal technology. However, as I hope that I have made clear before, that does not necessarily imply that the coal supplied would come from this country if it is produced more cheaply in other parts of the world.

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the Government's policy has, no doubt, encouraged the relatively few remaining pits in Britain to maintain high levels of productivity and an acceptable regard for safety? Does he also accept that there have been recent reports that petro-coke is to be imported into this country? That may provide someone else with profit, but it will hardly help the coal industry or the British environment.

My Lords, in cases in which international coal is cheaper, it is difficult to see the basis on which the Government could make certain that that coal did not come into this country.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What action they propose to take in response to the Rights of Way Condition Survey 2000 published by the Countryside Agency on 11th December 2001.

My Lords, the Government will continue, by means of regulations, to implement a range of measures provided for in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. The measures are designed to improve the administration and management of rights of way. Moreover, the Government are providing substantial additional funding to local authorities to accompany the new measures, which will assist highway authorities in bringing the rights of way network up to the standard that we expect.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but the Question is about the existing network and the existing system. The survey refers to the network's "existing inadequate condition".

Apart from the provision of signposts where footpaths intersect with metalled roads, the ease of using the paths has been unchanged since 1994. Eleven per cent of the footpaths and bridleways are reported to be "not usable". Walkers meet "serious problems" approximately every two kilometres on the existing footpath network, and horse riders meet serious problems on bridleways approximately every 2.4 kilometres. In those circumstances, is not the Minister being rather complacent? Will he talk to the Countryside Agency about what can be done now to make sure that, by the time of the next survey, matters are improved?

My Lords, that is one way of putting it. The other way is to say that 89 per cent of ramblers find the footpaths satisfactory. Local authorities and others have made some efforts to ensure that the footpaths are open. The moneys and powers available under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 do not relate simply to new measures under that Act; they relate to the improvement plans that local authorities are required to produce under that Act to improve existing rights of way.

The noble Lord is wrong to say that the measures and moneys to which I referred in my Answer do not deal with the problem: they do. Much of the activity will have to be carried out through the local authorities, but the Countryside Agency still stands there to help in that task.

My Lords, what consideration have the Government given to the levels of investment recommended by the Rights of Way Condition Survey 2000—£69 million to improve the condition of the United Kingdom's paths network to the standards envisaged by the national target?

My Lords, in line with what we said during the passage of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, the Government have allocated between £12 million and £19 million a year to allow local authorities to build up to that standard. Some of the money in that aggregate figure is to deal with other measures outside that, but there is a substantial long-term improvement programme.

My Lords, in view of the good news announced today that the Government intend to allocate an extra 13 per cent on average to the national parks in England and in view of the fact that so many people enjoy walking, will the Minister discuss with the chairman of the English National Parks and Broads Authority ways of ensuring that some of the increased moneys can be used to keep footpaths open?

My Lords, that is one of the functions of the English National Parks and Broads Authority. My colleague, Alun Michael, is in constant discussion with the chairs of the national parks to ensure that that responsibility is fulfilled.

asked the Chairman of Committees:

Whether the arrangements made with regard to the latest House of Lords Christmas cards were satisfactory.

My Lords, as far as I am aware, the arrangements were quite satisfactory. I have had no complaints about the Christmas cards that I sent out, although, I regret to say, I did not send one to the noble Lord. If the noble Lord can indicate what the particular problem is, we could deal with it. If I cannot, the works of art panel could.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. Does he realise that, like Bognor, he is the last resort? Does he know that I addressed myself to the Printed Paper Office and was told that the matter was nothing to do with that office? I was told to go to the Attendants Office. On arrival at the Attendants Office, I was told that it had nothing to do with them and that I should go to the Printed Paper Office. So I have come to the noble Lord.

The noble Lord is very satisfied with the card. May I ask him whether he realises that the principal card—which follows the barbarous custom of standing on its side—did not and does not? It fell down. Having fallen down, it refused to get up. The envelopes were far too small for the cards. Does he realise that? The effect was that, when the cards were put in, the envelopes burst. Does he realise that the glue had long ago lost whatever adhesive quality it might have had? My unfortunate secretary had to go and buy, at her own expense, a glue stick to stick them down.

Finally, would the noble Lord advert to the fact that, although the exterior of the card contained a beautiful picture of Westminster Abbey, the interior described it as Westminster Cathedral? That must be the anachronism of the millennium. All one can say to that is, "Pas encore" and to the noble Lord. "Where will it all end?".

My Lords, I am reminded of the alleged last words of His Majesty King George V in relation to Bognor.

As for the size of the envelopes, I managed to get the cards into the envelope without too much difficulty. Perhaps I have slimmer fingers than the noble Lord. My spit must be more adhesive than the noble Lord's. The reference to Westminster Cathedral was unfortunate. As the noble Lord suggested, Westminster Cathedral had not been built at the time the picture was painted.

It was, I understand, a translation from the French, but it was somewhat mistranslated. "Eglise", which was in the original title, was mistranslated as "cathedral" instead of "church". However, neither is correct because it is an abbey.

As to where the noble Lord should go with his problems, complaints about such matters should perhaps be addressed to the chairman of the Advisory Panel on Works of Art which decides which card shall be produced. I understand that there is a meeting in March. If the noble Lord wishes to address his problems to it, I am sure that the panel will take them up.

My Lords, I should like to apologise to the House for the mistake over Westminster Cathedral, which provided a lot of innocent amusement to many Members of the House before Christmas. Is the noble Lord aware that this time we received more congratulations on the cards we had chosen than in any previous year in which I have been involved in selecting Christmas cards with the assistance of my panel?

My Lords, I am glad about that. The panel is to be congratulated on the fact that as a result of the increase in price more than £1,300 was donated to the Save the Children Fund and more than £800 was donated to the House of Lords fund for the advancing of public understanding of Parliament through the acquisition of works of art. I believe that the Advisory Panel on Works of Art does a rather good job.

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that as a member of the panel I want to pay tribute to its chairman, the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton, for her extremely hard work and leadership in connection with all its work? Does he agree that perhaps those who criticise might consider putting their names forward to join the panel, which year after year takes infinite trouble when undertaking the extremely difficult job of choosing a Christmas card which, it hopes, will please the majority of your Lordships?

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton, will be extremely grateful for that comment, coming as it does from someone who has spent much of her time as a member of the works of art panel. There is no doubt that as one walks around the House and looks at the pictures on the walls one can see that a very good job has been done in recent years. There is now more variety. Furthermore, there is not just one Christmas card; there are, at most, four. There is a range of cards from which people can choose, most of which, I believe, fit into the envelopes.

My Lords, I am sure we all want to pay tribute to the works of art panel, which does indeed work hard on our behalf. However, since my noble friend tabled the Question, a number of people have said to me that to a considerable degree the mechanics went wrong—the size of the envelopes; the fact that in some cases they did not arrive at the same time as the cards, and similar mechanical problems. I am sure that the works of art panel will give careful attention to what happened when it makes its decisions this year.

My Lords, yes, that is a perfectly fair point. I had not heard of the difficulties people have had, but I am sure that the works of art panel will look into them. The printer was changed two years ago when, I understand, the original printer went bankrupt. I hope that we do not force this one into bankruptcy by over-egging the pudding. I am sure that these problems will be taken up by the works of art panel.

My Lords, will the noble Lord endorse my suggestion to the panel that as regards this year's cards an image of the Parliament choir might be an appropriate addition to the selection of designs on offer and that some of the money available for charity should go to the young musicians' charities which the Parliament choir supports?

My Lords, that suggestion can be taken up by the works of art panel. In the light of certain calendars and so forth produced by women's institutes and others, the question of the dress for the card might be worthy of consideration.

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the chairman of the works of art panel—and during my time that goes back to Lord Reilly—has always been willing to accept suggestions from Members; for instance, removing the year of printing? The year used to be included, which meant that one could not send cards overseas the following year when posting early for Christmas. Is the noble Lord also aware that the present chairman has welcomed suggestions from Members and has agreed that we can attend the meeting in March?

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness is right. As to using last year's cards, I dare say that we all do it, but it s important to remember not send the same card to the same people two years running.

My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that I was a member of the Advisory Panel on Works of Art for three years and was then dismissed for making artistic suggestions? With regard to my noble friend's question about the mechanics, does the Chairman of Committees realise that I received 500 cards which had nothing to do with the House but came from the Victoria and Albert Museum and seemed destined for a person even higher than anyone in this House? I had the greatest difficulty getting rid of them and when I finally did so it took me another week to get hold of my own. Surely, these mechanics ought to be looked at.

My Lords, I cannot think of anyone of a more elevated status than the noble Lord. However, I am sure that all his comments and criticisms will be taken on board by the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton, and her panel.

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.)

moved Amendment No. 9:

Page 1, line 9, after "10," insert "other than Article 2, paragraph 22, revising Article 214(2) of the Treaty establishing the European Community,"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, we turn from the excitement of designing Christmas cards to the more leaden but nevertheless important matter of European Union legislation. Amendment No. 9 covers ground which we examined during the Committee stage and involves amending Article 214, paragraph 2, of the second treaty of the European Communities, which proposes that in future there shall be qualified majority vote decisions for who should be president and members of the European Commission.

We on this side of the House are against that proposal and hoped—it was obviously a vain hope—that the Government might have stood out against it. It means a substantial step forward in the politicisation of those appointments. As I indicated in Committee, it never was the intention of the founding fathers of the European Communities—subsequently the European Union—that the Commission should be full of politicians or people who had to use political skills and arts in order to obtain their position. It was the dream of Jean Monnet, whom I had the privilege of meeting once or twice, that the commissioners and the president of the Commission should be dedicated servants of Europe and of the European aims and ambitions, but should not be high profile political figures who struggled up the political ladder in order to receive the nomination.

Therefore, I still see the proposal, which has been slipped into the Nice treaty, as going the opposite way to the intentions of those who truly had the interests of European unity at heart. It also moves the opposite way in another sense; that is, by elevating the whole business of the appointments of the servants of Europe up to presidents, elected commissioners, commissioners appointed by a majority and so forth, the status of the Commission and its president is subtly changed. We know what the present president wants because he has said it so often: he wants the Commission to become the government of Europe. I have quotations of his before me and I can confirm that he has said that several times. That is not, I understand, the policy of Her Majesty's Government and it is certainly not the wish of noble Lords on these Benches.

The Commission has had a certain role, designed by Monnet. Hitherto it has had the monopoly over the right to propose initiatives to the Council of Ministers, along with a good many other powers. Originally it was seen as the driving force or motor of European integration. I believe that that is why Monnet sought such skilled but low-profile civil servants who would use quietly that driving force to push matters forward without igniting too many political sparks and creating too many antagonisms in the member governments. That is what he saw as the way forward. But that era is probably now over. To quote Jacques Delors, the era of top-down decision making and legislation is over. Already the Commission is having to cede considerable power to the Council of Ministers and, indeed, to national agencies through soft legislation, concentration on frameworks rather than detailed regulation and so forth.

All that is to the good, but if one rose up against that and returned to the notion of presidents and commissioners appointed by QMV, one would reverse what could be quite a desirable trend, that of moving away from the élite, top-down nature of the European Union which has done so much damage and threatened its legitimacy in ways that Community officials and national governments are now seeking to try to remedy. Indeed, in a later amendment we shall consider the ways in which proposals are being put forward for a remedy and for reshaping the European Union into a more democratic form.

Part of the democratisation of the Union involves reasserting the point that the European Commission is a subordinate institution. It is not a superior institution set somewhere higher up the pyramid of the command structure of Europe; rather it is subordinate to the elected national parliaments and to the member states which have signed the treaties that brought it into being and gave it its powers. For those reasons, the European Commission is their servant. I feel that it is extremely important for us to remind ourselves, the Commissioners and the President of the Commission of that fact. Otherwise what is already evident to the Commission will become even clearer; namely, that it is losing the trust and confidence of the people and that it has become remote from the citizens. Those are words that appear in the Laeken Declaration and in the European Commissioners' own White Paper on governance. The Commissioners appear to be lofty, remote individuals who do not act in a subordinate and serving way on behalf of Europe, but rather in a more imperious and centralising way. That is extremely unhealthy and not what I believe true democrats or those with the true interests of Europe at heart would want to see.

On top of all that has come today another warning. There is talk of proposals for a full confederation between France and Germany. The matter was discussed yesterday at the Goethe Institute in Germany. The confederation would have common armies, common embassies and a common seat at the United Nations—one can rely on that. If that is to be the arrangement, then we can guess whose candidates will always be preferred and which majority will always prevail when it comes to appointing the high officials of the Commission. It needs no expertise to assess how such matters will turn out.

All this I believe to be profoundly unhealthy and not in accordance with what is now the quite desperate need for the European Union institutions to reassociate themselves with the grass roots of Europe and with its citizens in an intimate way; that is, not by inventing new institutions at the centre but rather by coming back and listening to people at the grass roots and in the national, democratically elected parliaments. That is the vital and overriding need. This proposal goes against that. Although the matter was discussed in Committee, I do not believe that it was brought to a vote or to a decision. Nevertheless, some very important matters are being brought forward here which merit further explanation from Ministers. It is in that spirit that I move the amendment. I beg to move.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, is quite right. We debated this issue at considerable length in Committee and the position of the Government was made clear at that time. Where QMV is in the interests of this country, we shall agree to it. Where it is not in Britain's interests, we shall not agree to it. It really is as simple as that.

That is how we approached the negotiations on the Nice Treaty itself. Where we felt strongly that an issue was of such fundamental importance that the decision must remain within the United Kingdom, with the Government and with Parliament, we simply said no. We did not agree to extend qualified majority voting. We stated in advance that we would not accept QMV for taxation, social security, defence, border controls, treaty changes or the Community's own resources; that is, its budget. We did not accept any extensions for those issues and thus the UK veto remains in place on all of them.

However, we do believe that it is short-sighted to oppose QMV in principle. It is important to recognise that QMV can work for this country. It built the single market on which over 3 million United Kingdom jobs and thousands of businesses depend. It is simply not true to say that Britain always loses out and that others always win with the extension of QMV. In 1999, the United Kingdom was not outvoted on any single issue, but Germany was outvoted twice, France outvoted three times and Italy eight times. I regret that I do not have the figures for 2000 and 2001—I am not leaving those to one side because they do not prove my point, it is simply that they were not available to me.

When the UK joined the then EEC a considerable number of articles in the Treaty of Rome were already subject to QMV. But as the EEC, later the European Union, has grown larger, so there has been a need to extend qualified majority voting in order to stop decision taking from coming to a grinding halt. Of course the biggest extension of all came about with Mrs Thatcher—now Lady Thatcher—in her negotiation of the Single European Act in 1986. Literally thousands of directives and regulations have been passed using the articles that were extended for QMV at that point. It allowed progress to the single European market to be accelerated and I am bound to say that I think that it was a very good thing.

The Government support QMV for appointments. We support it because we believe that it will lead to greater efficiency. It will help to secure quick decisions that lead to the appointment of the right person, irrespective of that person's nationality. The President of the Commission provides political guidance for the whole of the Commission. The Nice treaty will give the President more flexibility to organise the College of Commissioners and its work in the most effective way possible. Of course that is a vital job.

It is precisely for that reason that it would not be right for one country to be able to block appointments or, worse, hold to ransom policy decisions by insisting on having its own candidate. I cannot stress strongly enough that we want the best person for the job. We shall want to see that person appointed on the basis of merit and experience, not on nationality.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that he wanted to see less politicisation in appointments. I agree with him wholeheartedly on that point. What we disagree on is the best way of achieving it. However, the irony of the situation is that those very officials—one of whom the noble Lord quoted earlier in his remarks—about whom the noble Lord has such strong misgivings were, on the whole, elected unanimously. Thus unanimity really has not delivered for the noble Lord what he claims. As a result, I really cannot understand his reluctance to move away from a system that has not given him what he wants.

I urge the noble Lord to look at the other side of the argument; to look at the positive side of why QMV is, in this instance, in the United Kingdom's interest. Decisions on appointed officials will be taken more effectively and deliver for him what he wants—which is, among other things, less politicisation—and the process will be more diligent and efficient.

My Lords, I am obliged to the Minister for giving way. There is a report in a newspaper today which states that, under this system, when appointments are made to Commission jobs, British officials are likely to lose out and will not be treated as well as they are treated now. Can the Minister comment on that?

My Lords, I have no reason whatever to believe that British officials will lose out. The noble Lord knows as well as I do that, frankly, it is very hard in this country to have a reasoned debate through the media about what are likely to be the effects of any development in Europe. I do not know in which newspaper the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, read that, but one of the pitfalls into which many of our journalists fall very quickly is to assume that all changes away from qualified majority voting will be against this country's interest.

I was endeavouring to explain to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and others, that that is not the position of Her Majesty's Government. If we had thought that it would be detrimental to the interests of this country, it would have been included in the list of things that we were not prepared to do. That list was put into the public domain before we began the negotiations and, despite all the efforts to move around, we stuck to it and delivered what we said we would.

We should not make these appointments on the basis of "Buggins' turn", on the basis of nationality or, indeed, as may have been the case sometimes in the past, on the basis of cross-border rivalry. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, and I agree that we need the best people for the job. I believe that QMV will deliver that far more efficiently and allow such people to get on with their duties. I hope that, on reconsideration, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, will recognise that what he is trying to defend has not delivered for him what he said it could.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. At the beginning of her response, she made some remarks about qualified majority voting generally. I said at an earlier stage of our proceedings that if I were pressed for a view on where we on these Benches stand on this matter, I would have to resort to Evelyn Waugh and say that we liked QMV "up to a point, Lord Copper". In other words, the case for majority voting where certain powers and competencies are in the hands of the Council of Ministers and European institutions is perfectly valid, particularly in relation to the commendable goal we have sought over the years—often with more support from this side of the House than the other—of a great single market opening out with low tariffs all around it. That would make a major contribution to the greater liberalisation of world trade and a major contribution to the prosperity of the European peoples by opening out free trade. That was something for which we were quite happy to see qualified majority voting.

If one tries to draw lines—this is notoriously difficult—as to where one begins to have proper caution and proper doubts, it is when one sees the qualified majority voting device beginning to be used and insisted on not for maintaining and developing a gigantic common market—which, as we have always recognised, requires some political machinery at the centre—but for building something else; namely, a political union. This is where one begins to wonder whether the QMV device is the right one.

Clearly, this is one of the many examples which have slipped through in the later generation of treaties—to some extent at Amsterdam and also at Nice—and no doubt there are more on the tapis for the next treaty occasion, the next IGC and so on.

Some will say that it is a very good thing that the QMV device should be used to build a political union. It was always the cry of the former German Chancellor, Helmut Kohl, that there had to be political union. He said that there had to be political union otherwise the euro would not work; that you could not run a single currency without a single government authority and, therefore, political union there had to be. There might have to be temporary transitional arrangements in the mean time, a stability pact which might or might not hold together—it looks a little ropy at the moment—but political union was the ultimate aim and every energy should be strained to achieve it.

That is not, as I understand it, the policy of the United Kingdom Government. The Prime Minister has used a number of interesting phrases, particularly in later days. He began with the "heart of Europe" and all that. We have now moved away from that to being a "pivotal player" instead, which seems a rather different concept. We have also moved away from the commitment to political union. Instead, the Prime Minister has spoken about a "union of nation states", which is not all that different from the Europe des patries concept uttered by General de Gaulle two or three decades ago.

A political union is not what we want. There should be considerable additional caution when it comes to ticking the box and okaying the extension of qualified majority voting—not for bona fide regulations and rules or the removal of tariffs and barriers which open up the prosperity of the European people, but for a different project; namely, the political union aim.

Some will of course say that it was all in the original treaties and that we should not have signed up to ever closer union if we did not believe in it—but sign up we did. There are now those on all sides, including some who are quite close to the leaders of the governing party, the Labour Party, who are saying that a sensible and confident British Government should now say that the preamble to the Rome treaty should be opened up and that the phrase "ever closer union" belongs to a world of integration, hierarchies and pyramid building which is no longer consistent with the network arrangements and the looser interfaces between European nation states, which are now much more comfortable and will suit much better the proudly independent states applying to join the European Union and which will raise its total membership from 15 to 25.

It may be much wiser if we abandon the insistence on ever closer union; abandon—or reinterpret at the very least—the concept of political union; and avoid the accelerating processes which reinforce political union by majority vote. The noble Baroness said that the aim was to allow decisions to be made quickly. Perhaps this is one area where, in the name of democracy and getting it right—she is quite correct, things have not always turned out right in the past—the word "quickly" should not be in the vocabulary. Perhaps we should think about slower, more ponderous, more considered and more cautious methods for arriving at the right personnel for staffing this very important mechanism at the heart of the European Union; namely, the Commission.

The Minister teased me a little by pointing out that the unanimity system has not always produced candidates who have acquired universal acclaim. Some of the remarks circulating about previous presidents of the Commission and the present president indicate that it is not only on these Benches but rather more widely through Europe that people feel we can do better in the future.

However, I refute the Minister's proposition that the way to do better is to reinvent another system by questioning whether any system can automatically produce good candidates. The weight is against me in that the past arrangements have produced bad candidates and bad results. We have no pudding to eat by which to discover the proof of the noble Baroness's proposals, the proposals of the Nice treaty and the proposals of the Bill that QMV will miraculously produce better presidents in the future. Frankly, I am not sure whether that is where the matter of good or bad presidents lies. I believe that it lies in a better understanding by Ministers, and by those who elect them, of what we want out of Europe—which is not a central government in Brussels intervening in, to use the phrase of my noble friend Lord Hurd, the nooks and crannies of national life. If it does so, it ends up not uniting Europe, but dividing Europe.

That is where I stand, and that is my reason for proposing the amendment. Nevertheless, we have "knocked this issue around" to a considerable extent in earlier debates as well as in this one. I do not think that there will be any agreement between us, but the matter has had a good airing. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 1, line 12, at end insert "and the Declarations adopted by the Conference (other than Declaration 23(5))"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is grouped with Amendment No. 14, the logic being that both concern the same crucial declaration attached to the treaties. Both are concerned with the future shape and nature of the European Union. Therefore, they relate to fundamental matters concerning our relationship with the Union and what contribution we wish to make in the future to its changing pattern.

The European Union now faces the obvious upheaval of enlargement. It also faces many other enormous changes and forces at work. We touched on these matters in Committee. However, we did not test the feeling of your Lordships. For that reason alone, they merit further discussion. In addition, since the Committee stage an enormous amount has happened which is relevant to the future of the Union and to the proposals in Declaration 23. We certainly need to discuss these matters. There are one or two areas where this House badly needs some positive clarification of the way in which matters are going.

Looking at the overall scene, Declaration 23 is concerned with the way in which the processes of discussion of the future of the Union should now be carried through. The amendment would cut a big swathe into that declaration. It would remove from the agenda of processes four specific areas which those who drafted the Nice treaty were anxious should be discussed and analysed. The fact that I have moved the amendment does not mean that I do not want them to be discussed. It indicates our belief that, given the way in which the discussion is going, it could lead to a flawed and unsatisfactory result.

In particular, the declaration points towards further discussions on the delimitation of powers. That is a kind of jargon or code for a bigger issue which is looming. It is the question of whether there should be a constitution, possibly based on an amalgamated single treaty for the whole of the European Union, embracing—this is far from being decided—not only matters under pillar one, but those under pillar two and pillar three as well.

Behind that is the thought that, somehow, competences or responsibilities can be nicely layered, like some beautiful cake or ice cream, with certain competences sealed up for ever at supra-national (European institutional) level, and that certain competences can be permanently allotted to lower levels; namely, to nation states and even to regions. As I shall explain, I believe this to be a wholly unrealistic view of the way in which the world works. The idea that these matters are static and can be sealed for ever, locked in some constitution, is an absurdly. Nevertheless, it is a widely held aspiration.

The second item to which the declaration urges that attention should be turned is the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which I shall also discuss. The third is the simplification of treaties—which sounds excellent on the surface, but I believe that there is a great deal more behind the idea than is revealed at first glance. The fourth is a slightly condescending reference in the declaration to the role of national parliaments. Again, it is a central matter which should and does concern your Lordships very much and to which we need to give close and detailed attention even at this stage of the Bill.

The idea then expressed in the declaration, on which our amendments are focused, is that all these matters should be handled and wrapped into a process which should then come before a convention. That is to begin very soon—on 1st March, I believe, although I may have the date wrong—under a chairman who, rather to everyone's surprise, turned out to be, on the French nomination, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, a very distinguished former President of France. The work of the convention should, in turn, lead to an intergovernmental conference in 2004 which will bless a constitution and various solutions to the items that I have outlined.

My first question to the Minister is: what part are we in this Parliament—both in this House and in the other place—to be allowed to play in the convention? In my view it is unthinkable that it should not include as a delegate a Member of this House. The plan, as I understand it, is that the parliament of each member state should send two members to M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing's convention and, in addition, the European Parliament should send some 16 members. I confess that I find the whole project extremely worrying. First, there is the obvious point of how much "say" two members from each parliament will have in the convention. There is also the question of who will write the agenda, control the minutes and all the rest. Secondly, this seems to be an upside-down process. If the future of Europe is to be discussed—and Europe's democratic existence derives from the democratic parliaments and legislatures of the member states of which it is composed—it is the European institutions that should be sending delegates, possibly two from each major European institution and two from the European Parliament and so on, to the national parliaments to involve them in our discussions on how we see the future of Europe and the relations of each member state with the European Union as a whole.

To return to my specific question, when are we to know about the arrangements for the convention? Will it include only Members of another place, or are Peers to be involved? Who will choose them? When they have been chosen, and off they go to the convention, how will they re-connect with the two Houses and tell us what is happening? Could we have a specific answer to a mild request; namely, would it be possible for the two MPs—assuming that there will be only two—to report to the European Union Select Committee of this House? That seems to be one practical way in which we could have some access to what is happening as these very important issues about the future structure and constitution of Europe are discussed at the convention.

It seems to me that if the task—I merely repeat what the endless treaties and presidency conclusions assert—is to involve national parliaments in the processes and decisions of the Union, the involvement must be a two-way matter. We must see regular and continuous reports from whomsoever "represents" our two Houses at the convention. I have to put the word "represents" in quotation marks, because no single member of a parliament can represent the whole parliament. It is essential that we have strong reassurances and clear undertakings on the way in which the events and unfolding debates at the convention are reported back, so that both Houses can be properly and genuinely involved.

That involvement must be more than just a grand seigneur concession from the centre, allowing the various parliaments humbly to send a couple of members who will be lucky if they get much of a say. We do not want any of that. We want a clear undertaking that your Lordships will be properly and continuously informed. I suspect that that is not just a party matter. The process will presumably have to be conducted through our excellent European Union Committee structure, which is widely praised and applauded for its work. That would be a good platform through which your Lordships could be kept in touch. I hope that those important questions will be specifically addressed and answered. The matter is becoming urgent, because there are only a few weeks to go before this particular show gets on the road.

Behind the whole idea of the convention are the two bigger questions of the legitimacy of the European Union—a matter that is now of great concern to the Commission, as its European governance White Paper shows—and the aim of creating the great new architecture of a constitution. The Laeken declaration, which came out a few days after the summit, recognises the point about legitimacy. It repeats what is in danger of becoming a mantra—although it should be treated as a serious set of undertakings—that it is essential that,

"the European institutions must be brought closer to its citizens".

It then goes on to make a number of proposals, many of which would have the opposite effect and take European institutions considerably further away from the citizen.

The declaration then eventually comes to a paragraph that says, in a slightly throwaway tone, that the question of democratic legitimacy also—that should read "only", but the declaration says "also"—involves the role of national parliaments. It asks, somewhat casually:

"Should they be represented in a new institution, alongside the Council and the European Parliament?"

Surely the opposite of that is needed. It goes on:

"Should they have a role in areas of European action in which the European Parliament has no competence?"

That is very nice of them. The next question is:

"Should they focus on the division of competence between Union and Member States, for example through preliminary checking of compliance with the principle of subsidiarity?"

That sounds as though national parliaments are being thrown the sop of having to try to work out whether a constitution with specific levels of competencies could operate.

I do not like the tone of that section of the Laeken declaration. It seems very condescending and sounds as though it was written by people who do not understand that their democracy, their existence and certainly their finance and their salaries come from national parliaments, not from the higher ether.

At some stage, the authors of the declaration—which I suppose was endorsed by Ministers—assert that the democracy of the European Union springs not from voting, political systems and democracy in the nation states, but,

"from the democratic values it projects, the aims it pursues and the powers and instruments it possesses".

That is a fantastical theory that democracy can be derived out of thin air. That is not true. Democracy comes from citizens and people voting and electing their representatives through their established political systems. Until that is understood, the chances of European governance being upgraded to bring it nearer to the citizens are slim.

I should like the opposite of what is proposed. It is archaic and anachronistic that we do not find ways of involving the hard-working Members of the European Parliament in our affairs by bringing them into the machinery of our two Houses. Maybe the MEPs should be involved in some of our committees. I agree with one of the more authoritative members of the new Italian Government, Mr Tremonti, who says:

"More decisions should originate in national Parliaments".

That is an important insight that is worrying the Italians very much at the moment. Mr Berlusconi's Government have been accused of being anti-European, but he has rightly insisted that, like other good Europeans, he wants European institutions to be reformed in a democratic way. That means decisions not being dumped on parliaments or agreed by treaty process and then delivered for a rubber stamp to parliaments. The decisions should originate in national parliaments.

The implications of that are very large and they will not be particularly welcomed in the Commission, because they lead us to the question whether the Commission's monopoly in the initiation of decisions should remain. In practice, it is being eroded somewhat already, as I said earlier, but it is a big question. If more decision-making originated in national parliaments, the process would be much slower. We could forget the word "quickly" that the noble Baroness used. It would probably be less efficient and there would probably be more arguments.

My Lords, I was struck by the noble Lord's remark about the Commission initiating decisions. Will he clarify that? The Commission initiates proposals, but the decisions are still left to the Council.

My Lords, that is a more precise way of putting it. The Commission initiates proposals and ideas, as well as, in some cases, decisions. The noble Lord is right to press me to use a wider definition.

The two Houses of the Westminster Parliament have the scrutiny reserve arrangements, which are more elaborate than those in some other national parliaments of member states. Some hopes and weight have been placed on those arrangements as the device by which this national Parliament can be more involved in the decision-making process and in the processes leading to the creation of full legislative instruments. The scrutiny reserve system is good, but, having had a little experience of operating it and listened to those who have had much more experience, I do not believe that it is enough. First, it has no legal force and can be over-ridden, modified or bypassed by talking about concepts of provisional agreement when scrutiny reserve is refused. That means that the arrangements can be got round.

The system is not limited to Commission proposals or decisions, but covers a variety of other EU-related ideas and initial thoughts. However, it comes too late in the process. The ideas have already been formed elsewhere. We may have to insist in the future on something different from the old Community method, which still leaves the sensation that matters are being decided at a higher level and come to the national parliaments too late down the line. Sometimes they are debated or blocked, but all too often they are pushed through.

Another thought that is growing in influence and being more widely discussed—although I was surprised when I first heard it—is that the Danish method of prior consultation should be more widely emulated. Under that system, Ministers are mandated before they go to the Council, limiting what they may negotiate there without further consultation in Copenhagen. Five or 10 years ago, people dismissed that system out of hand, saying, "It is much too slow; the Danes have it wrong. If we had it, it would slow things down. What about our beloved momentum?" Today, however, as people feel increasingly left behind by this centrally driven momentum, ever more voices are beginning to say that perhaps that type of mandating is the way to bring parliaments back in on the act and ensure that we have close and continuous debate on matters that are eventually decided in the Council of Ministers rather than being asked simply to accept matters that have been settled elsewhere on a prerogative treaty basis and given a "Lump it or leave it" choice.

All those issues need careful analysis and discussion. I do not think that they are debated enough either in the other place or among your Lordships. This Report stage at least gives us the chance to consider them in rather more detail.

As for the central idea of a constitution, as I said the obvious danger is that we set in stone a highly fluid process in a rapidly changing world. Some powers that are not with the European institutions may yet have to go to them. However, I am absolutely certain that some powers that are with the European institutions most certainly have to come back to national parliaments.

Voices are being raised not only in Britain but across Europe in favour of degrees of repatriation of power and competences. There has to be a European-level pattern of decision on many issues, such as the environment and agriculture, and there have to be national decisions as well. Those matters are being increasingly dealt with by committees and agencies that are a mix of supranational officials, European institution officials, Commission officials and national officials. They are very complex matters and will become more complex, thereby making it ever more difficult to envisage a system that cleanly cuts between the levels of competence so that one lot is dealt with always at one level and another lot at another level.

Finally, on the constitution issue, a very interesting report was organised by the European Committee of the Scottish Parliament, expressing the thoughts of our Scots friends on whether Scotland's interests were best served by working with and through the London Government, whether they should go straight to building up a much stronger regional presence in Brussels, and whether ideas such as the second chamber of a senate as suggested by the Prime Minister would be of any use to them. I am glad to say that it was a robust report and that, on the latter point, it came to the clear conclusion that such an arrangement would be absolutely useless and would not help Scotland at all. It also came to the even more encouraging conclusion that Scotland's interests were best served by working closely with the London Government on the Brussels scene and in the European Union rather than by trying to bypass the London Government.

I hope to be forgiven for going at length into these detailed matters. However, we are dealing with the entire future of the European Union, and debating a very big subject on which amendments have been grouped, including the amendment dealing with the reference to the Charter of Fundamental Rights. As I said, I think that that is the only reference in the documentation from the Nice treaty. The reference is not in the treaty—the Minister has rightly corrected me on that—but is attached to the final act of the treaty. I think that that is the right phrase. It is therefore something we are entitled to discuss.

We on this side have no love for this charter at all: we question its necessity and we question the motives behind its creation. It seems to be involved not merely with important fundamental rights, to which we all adhere, but with a whole range of detailed social interventions elevated into rights, which may be important but are clearly a matter for nation states and not for supranational institutions. The whole endeavour has been described as an attempt to lock Europe into a failing economic and social model. Are we right to worry that it is going to turn out to be something more than—in the words of the former Minister of State for Europe, Mr Vaz—"just Beano"?

Yes, I think we are. We have now the words of Commissioner Vitorino that the Commission has agreed to apply the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Every proposal for legislation and every regulation submitted for adoption by the Commission will undergo prior review for compatibility with the charter. Additionally, proposals or regulations that affect fundamental rights will require a formal declaration of compatibility. That is the preliminary ruling of the European Court of Justice Advocate General. Therefore, all those assurances that the charter would not be taken too seriously and was just a shop window are turning out to be invalid. The charter is turning out to have a far more central role than the assurances we were given seemed to imply.

We on these Benches would like to think that the Giscard convention—

Oh!

My Lords, we would like to think that the Giscard-chaired convention will lead to a more modern, less centralising view about the way in which the European Union should be shaped. Frankly, however, I doubt it. I believe that there is a flawed perception of Europe that not only has prevailed but will prevail at the convention. Regardless of any performance in front of the curtain at the convention, behind the curtain there are much more powerful plans afoot. One I mentioned earlier, for a Franco-German confederation, is apparently being openly considered.

Moreover, I have read in the newspapers, with my eyebrows raised, that our own dear Foreign and Commonwealth Office has a new plan—I hope that the Minister will tell us that it is nonsense—for forming a UK-France-Germany triumvirate to run the European Union. This seems to be missing the fundamental point about the whole problem of the European Union and European unity: the Union has to be more democratic and involve more widely all current and future members.

We are therefore left with an uneasy feeling that Declaration 23 is pointing in the wrong direction. Our amendment seeking to remove large sections of it may be criticised for not recognising the spirit of Nice, but then we never thought that the spirit of Nice was a very nice spirit. While we want to see enlargement carried forward, we do not believe that these types of ambitions, aims and conventions are a necessary part of that process. I beg to move.

My Lords, I would like simply to point out, as I did when speaking to earlier amendments, that I do not think that we can correctly insert into the list of treaties and Community treaties in the European Communities Act 1972 declarations that do not have treaty force. I do not think that we can correctly do that.

As for Amendment No. 13, the question is: if there is to be another intergovernmental conference in 2004, as the heads of government have decided—they do not need any treaty authority to decide that; they can simply decide it—is it better to prepare it by means of personal representatives and Ministers, leading to a decision at heads of government level, which is how it was done in the past, or is it better to have a wider range of interests, particularly national parliaments, playing a role in the preparation? I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that it would be good to know how and when we are going to play that role, but that is our current choice. I have extensive experience of the preparation of past intergovernmental conferences. I believe that a wider basis for preparation is better than the preparation method which I personally suffered.

The second point of importance is that, if there is to be a convention, the agenda should not be restricted. The earlier part of Declaration 23 puts the process in the context of a deeper and wider debate on the future of the European Union, and the subjects themselves—which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, mentioned—are expressly stated to be inter alio. Of course, on some of those points there can be an upside—for example, on treaty simplification—but also a downside if, for example, a large number of member states wanted the European Charter of Fundamental Rights in the treaty. It is important therefore that it should be clear that when the convention states that there could be changes in the treaty, that that should also embrace the possibility of no changes in the treaty.

On balance we do not need to treat this declaration as a treaty. It is not. That would be the effect of Amendment. No. 13—of carrying in a lot of declarations and taking one out. We do not need to do that and for that reason I do not support the amendment.

My Lords, in his interesting 26-minute speech, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, raised a wide number of issues about the future of the European Union, to which it would be impossible to respond in full. However, some important issues are raised under the amendments which, although we on these Benches do not intend to support the amendments, we should like the Minister to address.

We on these Benches do not share the level of anxiety about foreign conspiracies against the straightforward and noble English which seemed to run as a theme through the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Howell. I loved the description of "more powerful plans afoot behind the curtain". Evidently the French and the Germans are hiding behind the curtain waiting until some good honest Englishman comes out so that they can stab him in the back as he goes by, Hamlet style.

I am sure the serried ranks of Conservatives listening to the speech of the noble Lord agreed with him, but the rest of us may have been a little puzzled. I remind him that a large number of the issues he raised in relation to national parliaments were dealt with in the Committee report of your Lordships' House published over a week ago. It is possible that some Conservatives may even have read that report, since there were Conservatives on the committee. It dealt with the whole question of the role of national parliaments and a second chamber. However, we are looking forward to the preparation of the next inter-governmental conference and the subjects to be covered there—in particular the role of the convention and how this time we report back to this House on important issues. On that we should like the Minister to respond.

As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, the convention is due to start in March. There are intended to be representatives of national parliaments in attendance. No doubt greater attention will be given to first chambers than to second chambers in the appointments. But, given the work of your Lordships' House, in particular of your Lordships' European Union Committee, and given the extent to which there is a level of expertise across the different Benches in this House on European matters, it is something which this House will want to follow in detail. We should therefore like a clear indication from the Minister, following the Written Answer given to a Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, that,

"your Lordships' House will be given the opportunity to debate such a Motion subject to agreement between the usual channels"—[Official Report, 17/01/02; col. WA 174.],

that the time will indeed be made available, and soon, for this House to do that. In the course of such a debate, arrangements whereby your Lordships' House will be kept regularly abreast of the development of discussions in that convention—not only the EU Committee but the Chamber as a whole—should also be taken into account. Those are the matters which seem to us to be the most important to take on board at this stage.

My Lords, I do not often agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, but his last point in relation to this House debating the convention and being given a progress report as to what is taking place in the convention during its period of office, is a very good one and I hope that it will be taken up by the Government.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, in referring to the role of national parliaments said, quite rightly, that there was an air of condescension on the part of European officials to national parliaments. That extends to all the institutions of the European Union, including the European Parliament. I remember as a member of the European Union Select Committee of this House attending a meeting of the national parliaments. It was quite clear at that meeting, at which the European Parliament was very well represented, that those representatives believed that the national parliaments were subordinate to themselves instead of the other way about. That is why many officials, including the president of the Commission and various leaders of various countries, want the parliament to be responsible for direct taxation, not only for the financing of the administration of the European Union, but also for the policies.

I happen to believe that the role of national parliaments must be maintained and indeed strengthened. If we believe national parliaments to be the bedrock of the European Union, we cannot continue to agree to Ministers being able to go to Europe without the sanction of Parliament and make agreements on high political policies. We must embark on adopting a system whereby, before Ministers go across to make important decisions, they not only carry the opinion of Parliament, but also the sanction of Parliament as well. That would restore real democracy to where it belongs; that is, with the national parliament.

Furthermore, I believe that Parliament has already ceded too much power to the European Union. At this point we ought to be negotiating for a return of powers, as was promised in the Maastricht treaty under the subsidiarity clause. I remember the debates which took place in this House in which that was always held up as the great achievement—"game set and match" was the exclamation by the then Prime Minister—whereby we were going to reclaim some of the powers we had ceded. Since then we have not regained any that I can manage to locate. This is an opportunity to negotiate some powers back to national governments and national parliaments.

With regard to the European Charter of Fundamental Rights, according to M. Chirac and Herr Schroder the plan is to impose a written constitution on the European Union. That is what they said and we can only believe that that is what they intend. People like myself are criticised because we read what such people say and we believe them. When Chirac says that the charter should be the basis of a written European constitution, then he is entitled to be believed. Since he and others are going along that road, I should like the absolute assurance—I am sure I will not get it—of the Minister this afternoon that that is a road down which the British Government will not take us. I hope that I get an answer, but I rather think that I probably shall not. They want to give the European Union a legal personality. That means that it would have the status of a single state; in other words—again, this phrase is often mentioned by people on the Continent—"a country called Europe".

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, also raised the question of representation at the convention. It is, of course, to be led by M Giscard d'Estaing, who is not a Eurosceptic, as everyone knows. He is a committed European integrationist and so are his two vice-chairmen. Before I entered the Chamber this afternoon I was told by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, that Giscard d'Estaing demanded a salary of a million pounds for chairing the convention. That report appeared in a newspaper today which I have not yet read. Just who does this chap think he is to demand such a salary? Does he think that he is David Beckham? Perhaps the noble Baroness will say whether she has heard of that great demand.

I am glad to see that two House of Commons Select Committees are now beginning to show their teeth and demand that Parliament, not government, selects the parliamentary delegates to the convention. It must surely be right that Parliament should select the parliamentary delegates to the convention—anything else is a sham. I hope that my noble friend will be able to tell us this afternoon that the Government recognise the democratic legitimacy of that and that they agree with the view expressed by the House of Commons through its Select Committees.

I believe that I raised my next point in Committee. I am really concerned about the representation of those people who simply do not want any further integration; indeed, they want to regress from further integration. It seems that they will not be represented at all. After all, in this country, they represent if not a majority, very nearly a majority. It seems to me that they will not be represented. That simply is not good enough. It is not good enough to have the convention packed with the lickspittling lackeys of European integration.

Oh!

My Lords, have I said something that amuses people? That is what I think and that is what I say. There should be a strong counterweight to what is likely to be a foregone conclusion if there is not that counterweight.

The Government have no excuse for not taking that large body of British opinion into account. There are all kinds of Eurorealist organisations. Indeed, the organisation, SOS Democracy, represents Eurorealist opinion throughout Europe. I believe that those bodies ought to be consulted. There are certainly very many organisations with larger numbers of members than either political party which ought to be consulted. I wonder whether the Government might like to consult those various Eurorealist organisations instead of forever taking a one-sided view that the European Union must forever develop along the lines of a single state.

I have asked a number of questions. I should, of course, be delighted if the noble Baroness is able to answer them. I have perhaps expressed a different point of view than that which is usually expressed in this House, but I believe that Parliament must start to reassert itself. If it does not, progress towards a fully integrated European state will undermine its status and undermine democracy in this country and, I believe, in all the other countries of Europe as well.

My Lords, I should like to address a few words on the subject of the amendment—perhaps that is rather a change in this debate. If the amendment were carried, its effect would be exactly the opposite to that which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, wishes to achieve. By knocking out subjects to be discussed in the convention and in the future IGC, he will simply make the remit wider and not narrower. Therefore, I do not support that.

As regards the subjects that have been identified for the next convention and IGC which, of course, have now been made much more elaborate by the decisions reached at Laeken, I do not share the noble Lord's dislike of the reference to the delimitation of powers. I believe that the European Union could benefit from a clearer delimitation of powers. The argument that he used against it which was that you could not set everything in concrete because there may need to be changes in the future of which one is not able to take account in 2004 is, of course, an argument usually used by the maximalists in the European Union to resist any delimitation of powers because they do not wish to see themselves constrained in any way.

Therefore, I believe that a situation where. for example, the provisions of subsidiarity in the Maastricht treaty were made a bit clearer and a bit easier to apply would be of benefit to all member states whether they be maximalist or minimalist as there would be less bickering about where the dividing line runs and a better chance of applying subsidiarity in a practical way. The problem with subsidiarity is that it is a wonderful principle but it is extraordinarily difficult to apply. It has not been applied properly in the European Union at any stage. Therefore, to my mind, it would be a good thing if the European Union moved towards a situation where it could apply it and even perhaps towards a situation where there was some body of a somewhat more objective kind which would adjudicate on which side of the subsidiarity line particular proposals lay. I refer to the idea that has been mentioned of France and Germany's constitutional courts. I do not want to get into the

constitution point on this, but I refer to something like that that would adjudicate whether a proposal from the Commission was on the wrong side of the subsidiarity line.

I do not think that we should be afraid of that, any more than I think that the reference in the declaration which we are debating to the powers of national parliaments is something we should shy away from. I believe that national parliaments have a bigger role to play. However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that I am not an admirer of the Folketing system. In my experience the Danish delegation in Brussels spent 99 per cent of its time negotiating the Folketing committee while all the rest of us were negotiating with each other to get the right result out of European legislation. Therefore, I do not think that that is a good system, nor do I think that it would work in either House of this Parliament.

Finally, I make a plea that we do not now start lengthy and heated debate about whether it is acceptable to use the word "constitution" as regards what will be talked about in Brussels in the convention and in the IGC. If you look at the origin of the European Union, you are bound to come to the conclusion that the treaties of Rome and Paris of 1952 and 1956 are in fact constitutional documents. They are not a constitution but they are constitutional documents and they have always been treated as such, as have the amendments to them. I was converted to the view that one should not shy away from the word "constitution" by two lectures given respectively by the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. That involves a reasonably eclectic choice of views on the European Union. Both noble Lords argued—in my view persuasively—that it would be an advantage to Europe to have a constitutional document that was clear, more precise and easier to assimilate by its citizens than the present amalgam of the treaties of Paris, Rome, Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice and the Single European Act. I hope that we shall not become lost in a lengthy semantic discussion about the word "constitution"; what matters is what goes into it.

I conclude by saying that I hope that the amendment is not agreed to because it would not have its intended effect.

My Lords, following the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, about the relations of national parliaments to the European Parliament, I wish to lick a little bit of spittle. One wise thing that Mr Major did at the time of Maastricht was to agree with the increased intercourse that should take place with national parliaments and the European Parliament. If have to say that this national Parliament was one of the most remiss in taking up that offer. Thus it was that the European Parliament—I was a member of its economic committee for some 10 years—itself inaugurated relations with national parliaments. Once again, a conspicuous feature of those meetings—at which we discussed, among other things, the advent of the single currency—was the absence of British representation.

My final point is that all is not lost. We should renew efforts to secure better relations with the European Parliament. In the case of this national Parliament—the British national Parliament—the House of Lords, which has an extensive structure for the oversight of European legislation, should be the Chamber that promotes that relationship.

My Lords, before the Minister replies, I want to put a question to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, whose remarks I heard with some interest. He admitted that subsidiarity was not really working as he had hoped it would. Does he envisage the convention—

My Lords, it would be proper if the noble Lord put his questions to the Minister rather than to another Member who has participated in the debate.

My Lords, I am quite happy to put questions to the Minister, provided that she can answer on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. If she agrees with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, which was to the effect that subsidiarity should start to bite in the European Union in a way that is not—

My Lords, we are on Report and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, cannot answer for himself. It is therefore unfair to ask a question of him.

My Lords, I thought that I had made it clear that I was now asking the Minister whether she agreed with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay; namely, that subsidiarity should be made to bite in future in relation to actions associated with the Treaty of Rome. My question is very simple. As we move towards the convention, does the Minister, on behalf of the Government, see the process of integration and the acquis communautaire being reversed? Does she see Articles 2, 3 and 6.4 of the Treaty on European Union and Protocol 30 of the TEC, which applies specifically to subsidiarity, being reversed or not? If not, we shall be dealing with just another pious hope from the Europhiles, which they know perfectly well has no chance of being met in reality.

My Lords, in replying to this debate I shall address Amendments Nos. 13 and 14, on which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that he placed so much importance. I am only sorry that his enthusiasm was not shared by his noble friends.

The declaration on the future of Europe, which was agreed at Nice, encapsulates key commitments, for which the Government fought very hard. Nice opens the way for enlargement, with no need for further institutional change. Before the next IGC in 2004 there should be a deep and wide debate involving ordinary citizens. The main agenda items for that IGC should be, First, a more precise delimitation of powers between the EU and member states, reflecting the principle of subsidiarity. The second item should involve the status of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights; that is, whether—and, if so, how—it should be incorporated into EU treaties. The third item involves simplification of EU treaties to make them clearer and better understood without changing their meaning. The fourth item involves the role of national parliaments in the European architecture.

The declaration also makes it clear that in addressing those issues there is a need to improve the democratic legitimacy and transparency of the EU and its institutions in order to bring them closer to citizens of member states. Much of this debate reflected those concerns.

I find it hard to understand how the Opposition would explain to our friends in the candidate countries why they seek to exclude from the treaty provisions that would allow candidate countries to participate in the next IGC; Amendment No. 13 would have that effect. It is absolutely right that as soon as candidate countries have signed accession agreements they should be allowed to participate in the IGC on an equal basis. It should not matter that they have formally not acceded to the European Union. That is a proper sign that we value their membership and input. Amendment No. 13 would exclude that possibility.

It is important to make it clear to all noble Lords that in this context we are discussing the United Kingdom's agenda. Successive British governments sought to place that agenda at the heart of the European debate. That agenda will lead to a more efficient, more comprehensible and—this is probably the most important point—more accountable EU, which we all want. We on this side of the House believe that the EU has been a great success but we certainly do not think that it is perfect. We are clear that the way to secure reform is to take part in debates on those issues, to put our case and to win the arguments. That is what we intend to do up to—and, indeed, at—the IGC in 2004.

I turn briefly to the way in which we expect that debate to be conducted—many noble Lords have concentrated on that—and the Government's approach to the issues. It is important to debate the issues with our partners. In December the Laeken European Council agreed to set up the convention, as we have discussed. That should be the means for taking this debate forward. The convention will bring together representatives of member states' governments, national parliamentarians, MEPs and, of course, the Commission. There would also be arrangements to allow NGOs and other representatives of civil society to make their views known. That is all to the good, too.

I remind noble Lords of the Written Answer that was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. In Answer to a Question tabled by my noble friend Lady Massey of Darwen, I said:

"The other place will be given the opportunity to debate a Motion nominating members to the convention, and your Lordships' House will be given the opportunity to debate such a Motion subject to agreement between the usual channels".—[Official Report, 17/1/02; col. WA 174.]

I cannot say fairer than that. From the beginning of our discussion of this issue, which was originally prompted by an oral question from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, I have sought to gather together the views of noble Lords and I have sought to convey them to the appropriate channels elsewhere in government. The noble Lord asked me for a categorical assurance about representation from your Lordships' House. The noble Lord will know that I am not able to give him that absolute assurance, but I can tell him that I very much hope so. On behalf of noble Lords, that is the argument that I have put with every fibre that I can muster. I hope that the noble Lord has been doing so, as has, I hope, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. We all know that there will be a great deal of pressure from another place for not only the two representatives but perhaps also the two alternatives to come from another place.

I put it to the noble Lord that this is not only a matter for the Government to decide; it is a matter in which we must all bear some responsibility in putting forward to our political colleagues in another place our arguments for representation in your Lordships' House. I know that I have done my part and I hope very much that your Lordships are also putting forward those arguments with all the gusto that can be mustered.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said that no Eurosceptic will take part in the convention. I do not know who will be nominated. Each country will choose its own representative and, of course, the European Parliament will do so, too. I understand that Jens-Peter Bonde, who, I believe, is a well-known Danish Eurosceptic MEP, is likely to be part of the convention. Unless my memory deceives me, I recall the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, referring with great admiration to that Danish gentleman. I hope that, if that is the case, the noble Lord will be pleased with that outcome. However, that is a matter for others to decide. Extensive as our ties may be, I am afraid that they do not extend to choosing the Danish members.

My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right. Jens-Peter Bonde is a very good friend of mine and I understand that it is possible that he will be on the convention. I do not know how big the convention will be but it will be very large, and one little tit-bit will not be enough to satisfy me or any other Eurosceptic.

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord is at least able to agree with me on the likelihood of that gentleman's involvement. But we shall see. None of us knows whether that will definitely be the case.

The point is that the convention is meant to produce options and ideas. But final decisions will remain where they should be—with the member states' governments in the intergovernmental conference itself. Those decisions will be taken, as the EU treaty rightly provides, by unanimity of the member states and in accordance with their own constitutional provisions. Of course, in the United Kingdom that means ratification procedures involving Parliament, as for the Nice treaty today. That is right, too.

I now turn to the substance of what we can describe as the four Nice issues. We have not reached a final view on any of the agenda items. It would be foolish to do so now, more than two years in advance of the IGC. I do not believe that that would be sensible or right. We want to hear what the public in this country think and we want to look at the ways in which we can approach the convention. But I hope that I can outline some of the main elements of our thinking to your Lordships.

We welcome the fact that the demarcation of powers between the EU and member states is on the agenda. I believe that the overwhelming majority of your Lordships will welcome that. It has been a recurring theme in our discussions, as, indeed, it has been again today. As the Prime Minister said in Warsaw, we need to focus the EU on what matters to its citizens and stop it doing things which it does not need to do. I hope that that is music to many of your Lordships' ears. That is why the Prime Minister argued in Warsaw that it is,

"both desirable and realistic to draw up a statement of principles according to which we should decide what is best done at the European level and what should be done at national level".

In particular, we are keen that two important principles already in the EU treaties—that is, subsidiarity and proportionality—should be given greater practical effect. Subsidiarity means that the EU should act only where member states cannot achieve the objective on their own. Of course, proportionality means that when the EU does act, it should do so as lightly as possible, consistent with achieving the result.

I turn to the charter of rights. This Government believe in human rights. We believe that people need to know what their rights are and that EU institutions need to respect them. That is what the charter of rights, proclaimed at Nice, is intended to achieve. It is a worthy aim and one which we on this side support. Of course, the charter is a political declaration. We have been over that point on a number of occasions. It is not the law; it is not present in the EU treaties; nor is it referred to in the Treaty of Nice itself. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and I were able to agree our position on that point.

At this point in previous stages of the Bill the Opposition have reached for their thick, and no doubt growing, files of press criticisms labelled "Romano Prodi" and have found one saying that the charter should, indeed, be legally binding. Let me be clear about that. There is no secret that the Commission and, indeed, some member states want to make the charter legally binding and to incorporate it into the treaties. We have not agreed to that. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that there cannot be any change in the status of the charter unless we and all other member states so agree because such a change would require unanimity. However, we have agreed that the 2004 IGC should consider whether to incorporate the charter into the treaties and, if so, how. That is the mandate agreed by the Cologne European Council and repeated in the Nice text, and that is what we shall stick to.

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness again and I am obliged to her for giving way. Does what she has just said mean that the Government remain opposed to the charter being incorporated into any treaty? Will they maintain that opposition at the 2004 conference? Can we have an absolute assurance that, although they rarely do it, the Government will, on this occasion, use the veto?

My Lords, it clearly means that that is our position in discussing the Nice treaty. The noble Lord now asks me to give an absolute undertaking for the year 2004. He is right. I shall not give such an undertaking for the straightforward reason which I hope I articulated earlier: I do not believe that at this stage it is sensible so to do. At this stage we have not finalised the agenda or heard all the arguments. I believe that it would be disingenuous to say that we agree to this being incorporated into the agenda but that we shall not even listen to what is said to us about it. Therefore, I am being absolutely straightforward with the noble Lord. He is probably not in the least bit disappointed with what I said. I assume that he is probably rather pleased that I have not been able to give him that assurance. However, I shall not do so because I do not believe that I am in a position to do so honestly.

I turn to the issue of treaty simplification. We agree with those who say that the treaties are almost impossible to read and that greater clarity is desirable. That is why we decided at Nice that the 2004 IGC should also consider how to simplify the treaties in order to make them understood. I believe that we are all aware that that will be a challenge. The treaties are complicated largely because they are agreed by unanimity, and each phrase or sentence usually represents some sort of compromise designed to safeguard the interests of one or other member state. In many cases, frankly, that has been the United Kingdom. But we are determined that we should make the effort.

We are also determined that we should not wait until 2004 to begin the process of clarifying what the treaties do and do not mean. The Government have started by making available in an easy-to-read form information on the Nice treaty in a booklet published shortly after Nice and on the rest of the EU treaties via the FCO website. We intend to build on that work.

I turn to the role of national parliaments. I believe that that is where many of your Lordships' concerns are focused. We have long believed that national parliaments should be more closely involved in monitoring and shaping EU decisions. That is why this Government introduced stronger scrutiny arrangements when we came to office in 1997. Of course, we ensured that all three pillars were brought under the scrutiny of the two committees: one in the other place; one in your Lordships' House. I believe that that has been a welcome change. That is why we sought debate in this Parliament on matters of EU importance, as we did before and after the Nice treaty. That is why the Prime Minister has proposed, as one possible solution, a second Chamber of the European Parliament made up of representatives from national legislatures.

But, of course, noble Lords opposite are right. There are several proposals on the table; for example, from France Prime Minister Jospin has proposed a congress of national parliaments, and today ideas have been put forward from Denmark on the issue of mandating. We must consider these issues on their merits. What matters to all of us is that national legislatures, with which most of our European citizens most readily identify, should continue to have an important role in EU matters as the EU enlarges its membership and develops its activities.

The noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, helpfully pointed out that it is quite clear from the declaration that the words "inter alia" are used, so other issues may be added to the four that I articulated.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, was exercised about the article in the Financial Times claiming the existence of an FCO plan for a kind of Security Council arrangement in the EU, with the UK, France and Germany as the prominent group. That is not true. It has not been proposed, and has not even been discussed within the Government. As for the other most interesting story about the £1 million to be paid for any chairman—mentioned, I believe, by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon—that sounds both silly and misguided to me, as was the article from the Financial Times. However, if I am wrong, I shall write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.

The Nice declaration does not limit what we can talk about at the IGC. Clearly, that would not be right. The world is moving very fast, and it is not possible to predict the EU's priorities in the year 2004. I am sure that the noble Lord would say, rightly, that we were being foolish were we to attempt to do so. We are looking at the proposed agenda items on that basis.

We look forward to this debate on the future of the European Union. Our aim is further to reform the Union so that we can continue to deliver what I believe most of the citizens of Britain and Europe want, and do so in ways that command their consent and support. On this side of the House we approach the debate with confidence. Since 1997, we have learnt that our approach, which is pro-Europe and pro-reform, is one that is working. The success of the Nice treaties confirm that, as does the agenda for 2004 agreed at Nice. The agenda is in the interests of Britain. We believe that it is also in the interests of Europe as a whole.

I hope that I have been able to answer the majority of the questions raised. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, made a very comprehensive address on the issues involved. I hope that the noble Lord will feel that I have answered the matters raised sufficiently so as to allow him to withdraw the amendment. If we did not take this agenda forward and were to vote against it, I believe that that action would place us in real difficulty when discussing with our European colleagues those very items about which the noble Lord and so many of his colleagues have expressed concern. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, this afternoon's debate has been most interesting. We have addressed some quite fundamental issues to which we shall no doubt be turning our minds in different contexts in future weeks and months. The Minister answered many points most fully. She teased me about the apparent lack of troops behind me when I began my opening remarks. I confess that, for a moment, I felt a little like the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo waiting for the Prussian troops to arrive at the end of the day. If I spoke at length, it was because I wished to deal with a number of fundamental issues that had not been previously addressed, and may not have been properly considered in the other place. However, I also did so to give my "troops", who were otherwise engaged, time to arrive in the Chamber.

I shall deal briefly with some of the issues. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who has great experience in these matters, spoke about dividing lines and the need to circumscribe and limit the powers of the European institutions and of the Commission. I used to be of that view when I believed that Europe was working in the old way. Indeed, I confess that I once wrote a book in which I said that that would be a good idea. However, like ships passing in the night, just as the noble Lord has come to that conclusion I have moved on from it. It seems to me that the new fabric of international relations, and the new network arrangements of the much more flexible kind that are emerging, make the idea of a written constitution, as proposed, completely out of date and inappropriate for the kind of Europe that we want to see.

However, I recognise that that thought belongs to tomorrow and that, for today, the cliché is, "Let's have a constitution". That seems to be the general idea. Clearly, it will be pushed at this convention. I envisage with some foreboding the attempt being made to write all this down. I believe that it will end in tears, but that is the wisdom of the moment and everyone thinks that it is okay. I understand the distaste of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for the Folketing and seeing parliaments becoming involved in endless "negotiation" to control their Ministers, thus removing lovely quality time in which officials can get on with the wonders of negotiation. But that, again, is the pattern for tomorrow: there will be more demand than ever from parliaments and peoples who are more empowered and have greater access to more information to have a far bigger say in how these matters are decided. Negotiations will become more difficult, as will momentum, but, on the other side of the coin, there will be more democracy. It is slow; it is infuriating; it is maddening; and it does not always fit in with aims and vision. However, it is the way that the world ought to go, and I believe that it will go in that direction.

I have made it quite clear that I very much favour a stronger role for national parliaments. My reason for wanting to knock this piece out of the declaration is that we do not like the proposal that the role should be designed not by our own discussion and debate, and by our elected government, but by a superior convention that, somehow, sets out some new role for us. The question of how it is done is at issue. We do not find the tone of the suggestion in the declaration to be encouraging.

I turn to the applicant countries and the question of whether their invitation to be involved would be damaged by the amendment. I agree that it would. However, I cannot see the need for a declaration, let alone a treaty, merely to arrange that there should be an invitation for those applicant countries to be fully involved. I am totally in support of their full involvement. In fact, I believe that their involvement has not been sufficient thus far. That can be easily overcome. We do not need to make elaborate summit declarations to achieve that aim.

I turn to the two core matters under discussion. As for the convention details, the Minister very frankly and openly said that she could give no categoric assurance on how the representation will be organised. I assure the noble Baroness that we have been trying. Obviously, I cannot speak for members of other parties, but we have been trying to put forward the point of view that your Lordships' House should have a say in these matters. I believe that that was the pattern in a precious arrangement as regards the embryo of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. We know that a Member of this House was able to speak for us; namely, the noble Lord, Lord Bowness. I had hoped that that would happen again on this much bigger issue. That is why we have been trying to push that point, and we shall continue to do so.

I am quite sure that the noble Baroness is doing her utmost, but the basic problem is this: is it really right that this great national Parliament, with all its history and authority in its two Houses, should be represented just by two people attending a convention in Brussels? I believe that the inventors of this convention idea have got it wrong. This is not the way in which the future of Europe can be democratically decided. It may go ahead; indeed, it probably will. But I do not believe that it will inspire vast confidence that the future of Europe is in democratic hands. Although our two members will be chosen and will no doubt do their best, they will have an enormous uphill problem to connect with the feelings of both the other place and of this House about how the future of Europe should be organised. I am left with the feeling that that is a very unhappy position, and one that I do not think we should necessarily accept.

As for the charter details, the Minister said, again, that she could give no undertaking about what will happen in 2004. She said that the Government have not agreed that the charter should be fully embedded in the treaties. However, in a preliminary ruling,

"the Commission has agreed to apply the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Accordingly every proposal for legislation, and every regulation submitted for adoption by the Commission, will undergo prior review for compatibility with the Charter".

As we are nearing the end of the debate, I do not want to ask more questions, but a question that has not been answered and that hangs in the air is whether the Government have agreed that point. They may say that they have not agreed anything in relation to the charter, but something has happened and the Commission has taken on a role. I wonder whether the Government have objected to that. I do not know. Perhaps we shall learn about that at another time. Clearly we shall not learn about it from what we have heard this afternoon.

Although through the proposal to change this declaration we have raised many broad issues—these two particular issues merit very serious attention—I do not believe that they have received the full attention that they deserve nor have we received the full assurances that we seek. For that reason I wish to test the opinion of the House.

moved Amendment No. 17:

After Clause 3, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, the Government have made this proposal necessary because they spent so much time before, during and after Nice trying to persuade people that Nice involved nothing more than minor changes which were necessary in order to allow enlargement to take place. Our debates in Parliament have been worthwhile if they have exposed what complete nonsense that was.

During our debates, we have been able to point out that, among other things, the Nice treaty proposes that qualified majority voting should take the place of unanimity in a whole range of matters which the Government have not sought to pretend have the slightest bit to do with Nice or that they are changes needed in order to make enlargement possible. Simply because of all these other matters dealt with at Nice—the replacement of unanimity by qualified majority voting in a whole range of matters, the European Charter of Fundamental Rights, and all the proposals surrounding the controversial issue of the European defence force and the rest—it is necessary to put them on paper and for the Government to explain why they are important. That would be beneficial and would help the Government to explain to the people what Nice is really all about.

My Lords, Nice is about reform for enlargement. In particular, it is about reforming the European Union's institutions for enlargement. That is what the changes under discussion will deliver.

I would just say to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that I do not believe that anyone speaking for the Government has ever claimed that it is not an important treaty. Others may have done so. Others have said that it is a treaty which is far more far-reaching and radical than any treaty before. I am bound to say that I think that the truth lies somewhere between the two. It is not nearly as radical as some treaties, but it certainly is an important treaty. It represents, in the view of the Government, a good outcome for the United Kingdom. It will deliver a stronger Britain in a wider Europe.

Let us enumerate what has happened during the course of the treaty. We have opened the door for enlargement. We have won more relative voting power for Britain. We have delivered a more efficient Commission, securing more QMV where this is in the United Kingdom's interest and preserving our veto where we said we would. We have achieved a more effective system of justice in the EU that will help cut down delays and have secured a more flexible EU, while safeguarding the interests of all member states. That result meets all the objectives that we set ourselves at Nice. It is further evidence that the Government's policy of positive engagement in Europe is really working.

My Lords, there may be one flaw in the amendment. It states:

"Within three months of the ratification by Her Majesty's Government of the Treaty of Nice amending the Treaty on European Union"—

and so on—

"the Government shall lay before both Houses of Parliament".

That sounds all right, and normally I would support it. But there is a fly in the ointment, is there not? The treaty cannot come into operation until the Irish have had another referendum, because all members must ratify before the provisions can come into law. Has the noble Baroness any news as to when—if at all—another referendum will be held in the Irish Republic?

My Lords, as for the shortcomings, alleged or actual, of the amendment, that is not a matter for me—it is not my amendment, it is that of the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford. As for the current position regarding Ireland, I have no further news to deliver to your Lordships beyond what I have already said about how the issue is being tackled.

My Lords, I shall not pretend that I am anything but disappointed by the reply of the noble Baroness. The amendment represents a perfectly clear and modest request that Parliament deserves to have answered in the affirmative.

I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, raised the question of the whole ratification process. The amendment mentions ratification by Her Majesty's Government, which is of course a narrower concept. In a sense, the treaty has already been signed by the Government, and in the Government's mind it is just a question of getting it through the two Houses and onto the statute book, and that will be their business done. As the noble Lord pointed out, ratification of the treaty as a whole is very much on hold. We need a White Paper not least to explain to the British public what is plan B, supposing that the Irish do not so reorganise their system that they can have another referendum that will come out a different way. Let us suppose that, maddeningly, the people continue to speak in the same tone. What happens then? Have we worked in vain? Will another treaty be designed? Will we return to our original plan, which was a treaty to deal with the mechanics of enlargement—in so far as they needed to be dealt with by a treaty—which would have long since been passed without any problems in Ireland or anywhere else? Or are we to try some new avenue?

Those are matters that deserve an answer in due course—not now, obviously. Parliament deserves an answer, which, among other things, should be included in a White Paper. However, apparently that is not to be. We feel deprived, but we have made known our views. Having done so, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 18:

After Clause 3, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, before my noble friend Lady Symons of Vernham Dean responds to the debate on this important matter, will she allow her mind to brood over the undoubted fact that the treaties themselves are largely unintelligible? That has been admitted on all sides. It seems odd that we shall, no doubt, again discuss Nice and any measures that are in force or will be brought into force. We shall probably discuss the degree of real scrutiny of proposed European legislation which comes to this House and to another place. We shall discuss all those issues and I have no doubt that the Government will give us the benefit of their latest knowledge.

However, the unassailable fact which underlies the whole concept of explanation and the validity of communication between the Government and the people—many Members are extremely friendly to the present Administration and the whole concept of Europe, as has been explained to us—is that the documents on which everything stands—the treaties from the Treaty of Rome onwards and the amendments which have been made—are admitted to be largely unintelligible. Until that fact is dealt with, there can be no thorough discussion either of the Treaty of Rome or any of those that have been past since.

My Lords, I have great sympathy for much of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. He will agree with me that, even allowing for the problems which are bound to arise when one is legislating for a number of countries using different languages, the language used by the Commission and in European legislation is often almost entirely incomprehensible. The exercise which the noble Lord proposes would be useful if it only compelled officials to try to write in words which ordinary people can understand.

Luckily for the purposes of this debate, a classic example of that occurred in the past few days. When we previously debated the Bill, we discussed the funding of European parties. I drew attention to Article 191, which refers to the funding of European political parties, and to the power which was to be granted to make regulations governing the funding of such parties. I drew the attention of the House to Declaration 11 on Article 191 of the treaty establishing the European Community. That declaration reads:

"The Conference recalls that the provisions of Article 191 do not imply any transfer of powers to the European Community and do not affect the application of the relevant national constitutional rules".

I begged to question what on earth that meant.

Obviously, the first part of the declaration was absolute rubbish. How could one have any funding of European political parties unless there had been a transfer of powers to the European Community? Unless someone had given the EC the power to use our taxpayers' money to fund political parties, why on earth was it doing so in the first place?

Secondly, I questioned what on earth the words,

"do not affect the application of the relevant national constitutional rules",

could possible mean. Quite clearly, national constitutional rules could not have any bearing on the funding of a party which was not a national party but which was a European-wide political party. Therefore, it was as plain as a pikestaff to me that that was typical European gobbledegook and that Declaration 11 was sheer nonsense.

Today I received a courteous letter from the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, for which I am grateful. However, lo and behold, she states that the wording which I quoted, and which I have quoted again today, was proposed by the United Kingdom. The Government are responsible for that wording. According to the noble Baroness, the purpose of the wording is to make it plain that Article 191,

"does not in any way affect the right of member states to regulate national political parties in accordance with their own constitutional rules".

Whatever that declaration said, it certainly did not say that. If the English language means anything at all, whatever that declaration means, it cannot possibly mean that.

If our officials are dishing out that kind of rubbish to be included in declarations which are then incorporated in the annexes to treaties, we really are in a mess. I therefore hope that the fact we have spotted some of the nonsense which our officials are feeding out to the Government will be a stern lesson for them. I repeat that Declaration 11 does not mean what the noble Baroness says it means and it is complete nonsense in the context of Article 191.

Let us learn a few lessons from that. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, is on to a rather good thing. I do not want to see too much money spent on it, but I think it would be good if for once officials were required to explain in plain English, rather than European nonsense, what some of the measures to which we are supposed to subscribe really amount to.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, helpfully reminded us that the sin of obscurity in legislative documents is one of which we in this country are as guilty as are the drafters of legislative instruments in Brussels or other capitals. I am grateful to my noble friend for introducing the amendment. It is important that the communications of the EU should be resoundingly clear when they are intended to set out fundamental changes in the balance of authority between nation states and the EU.

With the benefit of historical hindsight, it may be true that early EU documents were not designed with that in mind partly because they were the instruments of those who were playing a game of grandmother's footsteps. They were slowly, but none the less surely, developing institutions the full significance of which they understood well but which they were not ready to trumpet in every quarter.

Therefore, what my noble friend says is particularly timely, not so much in the context of the Treaty of Nice, which he admitted is not the right document with which to start the process, because of its textual obscurity, its legislation by reference and the relatively minor changes that it makes compared with some of the previous international agreements—the Treaty of Maastricht, the Single European Act and so forth—but, as we embark on the preparations for the 2004 IGC, it is certainly right and timely to have the necessity of clarity of communication with the citizens of Europe very much in mind.

It is not necessary to rest the case for that on the somewhat equivocal evidence of poor turnout at European elections. The turn-out at all elections has been declining notably, not, I think, because people have not been able to comprehend the issues at stake, but perhaps because they do not see any great issues of principle dividing those on either side of the argument. Alternatively, perhaps they are simply content or, perhaps, the sheer complexity of the issues that face modern governments and their electorates make it difficult to come down firmly and clearly on one side or the other.

Personally, I think that it is wrong not to exercise the democratic right to vote and thus to choose that which has been so hard fought for. Indeed, the other day perhaps I was guilty of a slight indiscretion in criticising a speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, in the debate on the future of the House of Lords for not having attached sufficient importance to the right to vote. However, I believe that my noble friend is right to say that citizenship and the casting of the vote should be encouraged by the comprehensibility of the documents we put before the public.

I do not think that it is quite fair to suggest I hat either this or the previous government have not taken some steps in the right direction. We have seen the domestic innovation of the publication of Explanatory Notes to accompany legislation, although I have to say that, not infrequently, the Explanatory Notes are as incomprehensible as the Bills themselves. Nevertheless, it has been an encouraging attempt. We have also seen leaflets produced. The leaflet flourished by my noble friend is a somewhat paltry affair, but then some might criticise the document itself as being somewhat paltry.

However, although it would be possible to say a good deal more about the Treaty of Nice than has been attempted in the leaflet, and although it would probably be easier to describe many of the underlying principles—as has been done in several speeches made during the course of our debates on the Bill—which the treaty seeks to incorporate, the detail of the legislation does not lend itself easily to a pamphlet which would be readily understood by the general public. That is not to adopt an exclusive attitude; rather it is a comment on how the document was drafted and, indeed, on how so many of our international agreements are drafted nowadays.

Returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, I fear that it forms a part of what might be described as the "British legislative disease", which we are exporting to Europe, rather than importing European gobbledegook into our own way of doing things. So far as concerns constitutional documents, I would prefer to travel much further down that road and incorporate the kind of language used in the Code Napoleon, because its meaning is a great deal clearer. The great constitutional documents of the 18th century, such as the Declaration of the Rights of Man, as well as the more modern European Convention on Human Rights, are pellucidly clear to the lay person and thus highly suitable for circulation as aspirational documents. They encourage the highest expectations and the best urges of those seeking to explain and elevate our democracy. But a document such as that before us, one that requires the experts to undertake a good deal of digging in order to be precisely sure of the meaning, is very unsuited to the kind of treatment that my noble friend wishes to initiate.

I hope that he is not successful in persuading the House that this is the right time to embark on such an exercise. I do not doubt that a right time will come—I do not advocate the doctrine of "un-right time". Rather I would advocate that the next major European constitutional agreement should very much reflect the kind of thinking expressed by my noble friend and that those who share his view will strongly support the proposal that our citizens should be given every opportunity by their national government to follow and understand the constitutional documents being adopted by the European Union on their behalf.

My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I do not speak from the high ground of a discussion about democracy or the need to include excluded people or, for that matter, in order to discuss the merits and demerits of the Nice treaty, but rather purely from the communications perspective.

It is quite obvious that the Government do wish to communicate with people about the Treaty of Nice because they have set up a website and published a leaflet. I would argue that that is not a particularly competent way to communicate and not really in line either with the Government's well-earned reputation for being able to communicate effectively with the public—which they have done so successfully since they first came to power—or in the context of many other of their activities.

Last year the Government spent some £146 million on publicising various aspects of their policies: advertising careers in nursing and the police, promoting the take-up and use of working families' tax credit and campaigning against benefit fraud. Why not spend a mere £1.5 million on communicating with the public about the Treaty of Nice which, if it results in a "stronger Britain" taking its place in a "wider Europe"—as the Government state in their leaflet—strikes me as something well worth communicating to a much wider audience than simply those who have access to the Internet and those who are so minded to contact the FCO and request a copy of the leaflet. It is a fact about the Internet that it is not accessible to almost 50 per cent of the population, in particular if one includes not only those who cannot gain access, but also those who simply will not seek access or do not have the faintest idea of what to do when they do access it.

The leaflet lists five key benefits that will result from the enlargement of Europe, including increased trade, more jobs and greater co-operation, all of which seem to me to be extremely compelling. I do not think that the Government need fear spelling out in plain language those benefits in a simple leaflet to be dropped through the letter-box of every household in Britain. I shall give one or two reasons why I believe that the Government should adopt the amendment.

First, it is rather a good idea. I was very heartened when the noble Baroness, in summing up on a previous debate, made three points of particular relevance in the context of this amendment, one of which was that the Prime Minister wants it to be made clear that Europe is all about things that matter to UK citizens. If that is the case then it is perfectly reasonable to present the Treaty of Nice in a leaflet explaining that it will touch on those issues that matter to UK citizens.

Secondly, at one point the noble Baroness said that the Government already have in place the website and the leaflet, and that they would be willing to do more. I would be delighted if that "do more" included the adoption of the idea of putting out a well-written, easy-to-consume leaflet about the Treaty of Nice that argued the case for it and against it impartially, thus allowing the people to take a view. After all, if the Treaty of Nice is a force for good, then more knowledge and information about it would enhance the good things it will do for British citizens. If, on the other hand, in their opinion it turns out to be a force for bad, then it would enable British citizens to make clear their concerns about it. The Government would then be able to address those concerns. I see nothing lost by following that route.

Furthermore, it is a very low-cost idea. I spent some 40 years in the communications industry, much of that time in advertising. These days advertising is no longer regarded as the ultimate method of communication. The media have fragmented and the commission system is abolished, so no longer is there any reason why advertising agencies should propose very large advertising budgets. It does not increase their incomes. Media fragmentation has resulted in the development of direct marketing, which is, basically, what is being proposed here. A leaflet dropped through the letter-box of each household is a direct marketing approach. It is cost-effective and efficient; it can be measured; and it is modern. I know that the Government like to do things that are modern.

I believe that the Government could easily accept this amendment and I urge them to do so.

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, he said that he saw no reason why the leaflet should not include government statements on why the European Union provides so many advantages for Britain. Does he classify that as being impartial?

My Lords, it depends on how it is expressed. The art of communication in the industry I come from is about information and persuasion. It is virtually impossible to give information without it having some persuasive effect, particularly if the information is seen by the recipient as a benefit. I do not think that the leaflet should be turned into propaganda and it is perfectly possible for the Government to have people from either side put their arguments in it. But, setting aside the issue of whether or not the Government coat it in persuasion, the mere issue of what the Treaty will do for people's lives in Britain is sufficiently important that I would run that risk.

My Lords, I, too, have a good deal of sympathy with the amendment because, on occasions such as this, I have been convinced that international draftsmen are not so much confused as seeking refuge in complexity.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, is chairman of the Citizenship Foundation. My interest in the amendment arises from my role as the founder president of the Institute for Citizenship. Like the Citizenship Foundation, we seek to preach and teach good citizenship and an understanding of parliamentary government, both in our own Parliament and in Europe. Prior to the previous European elections, the Institute for Citizenship endeavoured to explain and encourage an interest in the elections to the European Parliament—particularly among young people—under the slogan, "Get the vote out". I fear that we were not successful because, as the House knows, the turn-out was as low as 23 per cent—a catastrophic figure which should worry us all.

In analysing this after the election, the most frequently reiterated phrase was, "We didn't know enough about it". In the new year, just before the House resumed, I attended a civic service in my former constituency of Croydon. I asked one of my former constituents, "Who is our Euro MP?", to which he replied, "Well, you are, mate, aren't you?". I never met anyone in Croydon who knew who was our European Member of Parliament—thanks to the list system, I gather that there are six of them—but, in the old days, when we had James Moorhouse, at least we knew who he was and what he was up to. Today, I fear, people know nothing or very little about the European Parliament, which is increasingly impacting upon our affairs.

I have added my name to the amendment because it is important that the people of this country understand what is being done here in Westminster in their name. Thanks to the 30-year rule, we now know that, in the 1975 referendum, we who were active in seeking a "yes" vote leading into the European Economic Community were not told at the time that we had signed away our fishing rights, worth billions of pounds, which has virtually killed our fishing fleets. Any further intrusion of this kind must be clearly spelt out. I urge your Lordships to look at this in the Library, as I have done, and in the Daily Telegraph of last week.

We are not now concerned with the EEC but with the European Union. It is crucially important that the people of our country are kept fully informed and made fully aware of the impact of the Bill on our national affairs. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, calculated that the leaflet would cost £1.5 million. He mentioned that Jack Straw thought that this was an under-estimate and calculated that it would cost £5 million. Five million pounds is a paltry sum in economic terms. In my view, it would be money very well spent if, as other noble Lords have said, the leaflet spelt out clearly and in plain English the impact of the Nice treaty and the Bill on our future.

There is a feeling that we are signing away our freedoms and, notably, our sovereignty. The leaflet suggested by the noble Lord would protect the Government if it all went wrong and, importantly, it would spell out to the electorate the impact of the Nice treaty prior to a referendum on our entry into the euro, if and when it comes.

It is far easier to lose our freedoms than it is to regain them. The greatest enemy of freedom is apathy. We should do all we can to ensure that the electorate of our country know what is being done on their behalf. It is in that spirit that I warmly support the amendment.

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, with one proviso—that it might perhaps go a little further. It states that the proposed communication, which I support, should be in writing, in plain English, in popular form and impartial. It should also contain the proviso that it should be truthful or accurate.

I say that because of what happened the last time a British government consulted the British people in a referendum. As the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, reminded us, that was in 1975, when the people voted on whether or not we should stay in what was then the European Common Market. It is worth remembering what happened then, much of which was encapsulated in a Radio 4 programme on 3rd February 2000 at eight o'clock. That programme, which was entitled, "Document: A letter to The Times", is well worth listening to again, or perhaps noble Lords should at least look at the transcript. In that programme, the BBC confessed that in the 1975 referendum it was heavily biased in favour of a "yes" vote before and during the campaign, and even, amazingly, that the "yes" campaign was generously funded by the CIA.

Worse than that, the leaflet that the then government put through every letterbox in the land has turned out to be inaccurate. In the letter from the Labour government headed by Mr Wilson—

My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will give way. Is not it also worth reminding noble Lords that, in 1975, those members of the Labour government who were recommending a "yes" vote in the referendum said, in commending the union, that the public would be glad to hear that the threat of monetary union had been removed?

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend. I was about to quote from the pamphlet in question. Mr Wilson assured the public that the threat of economic and monetary union,

"could have forced us to accept fixed exchange rates for the pound, restricting industrial growth and so putting jobs at risk".

And then the immortal words,

"This threat has been removed".

It is for that reason that I support the amendment. I hope that the pamphlet will be accurate and truthful, and that its impartiality will be judged by more than the government of the day.

My Lords, I am sorry. I do not mean to persecute him, but, before he sits down, did the noble Lord say that the "yes" vote in 1975 was partially funded by the CIA? Did I hear him correctly? If so, is it the case that on the previous Report day he said that it was the Soviet Union and today is saying that the last vote on Europe was funded by the CIA. I am becoming very confused.

My Lords, my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Acton, heard me entirely correctly. The information was contained in the BBC Radio 4 programme broadcast on 3rd February 2000, which went out at eight o'clock. It was entitled "Document: A letter to The Times". Indeed, all the supporting written evidence is to be found at Georgetown University, in Washington. The noble Lord goes to the United States often, so he can go and read it for himself. Or he can simply read the transcript of the programme to which I have referred. It confirms beyond peradventure that the CIA gave massive funding to the "yes" campaign in this country in 1975.

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment, for the reasons in particular given by the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill. I assume, indeed I hope, that such a provision would come into force before the decision on the euro. It is my belief that most people in this country still see that as merely a financial decision. It is vitally important that there should be some way—as is offered by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—of explaining to people that we are looking at constitutional change; that it will be irrevocable; and that it will affect every aspect of their lives.

That is still not being brought home to the public. They are still thinking in terms of the euro, and in terms of money and markets. All those are important. But most important of all is that we should continue, through Parliament, to make our own decisions. Those decisions will be taken away from us if we are not very careful. Therefore, I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, for the particular reasons that he gave. I must apologise for not having been present earlier: no doubt these points have been made already. But perhaps the House will not mind my repeating them briefly. This is a constitutional issue, and that is what matters.

My Lords, my noble friend is known for his complete devotion to participatory democracy. I share his view. I agree with him that citizens deserve better information about Europe. But why should we leave it at Europe? If asked, quite a number of people, for example, would not be able to describe how the Stock Exchange works—although it probably affects them in their daily lives as much as many other matters. There is a huge range of matters about which people do not know a great deal. There is a vast amount of knowledge; we cannot all know all of it.

It would be useful if citizens were given greater information about this important subject. However, to achieve that, much more is needed than a simple leaflet about a treaty. We need a press which takes a responsible attitude towards this subject—which, until recently, the press has not. I have detected a slightly more responsible attitude recently, but stories about fishermen with hairnets and all the other rubbish in years gone by did not help.

We also need a willingness on the part of government to unleash the European movement from its shackles. We must suppose that we are in the run-up to a referendum, but so far the European movement has been told not to utter so much as a whisper.

The main reason why I have doubts about the effect of the proposed new clause is the use of the word "impartial". The noble Lord referred to leaflets that are put through doors at election time. I may claim to have written as many such leaflets as most other Members of this House. I have stood for election six times, and I have always written my own election literature. Although I say it myself, occasionally I produced a rather good leaflet—simple and easy to read, illustrated, in large print, and taking up two sides of an A4 sheet of paper. But it was not, nor was it intended to be, impartial. The minute you start putting out a leaflet which says, "Some people may think this. Some people may think that. The Government think this", the leaflet will not be short. It will not be plain; it will not be simple; and it will not be popular.

My Lords, I am glad to be associated with this amendment, which the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, moved with great eloquence. In putting forward such views, he speaks for those far beyond his own party.

As for the cost of the proposal—referred to by my noble friend Lord Waddington—if it reached the stratospheric sums mentioned, I should have to disengage my support. Together with other noble Lords, I believe that this would be quite a cheap exercise. The actual sum would be minuscule compared with the amount that the Government spend on advertising almost every week, let alone the amount that the European Union spends on promoting its views—sometimes dedicated in a particular direction. So I do not believe that the cost problem is a deterrent.

Why do I believe that it would be right for the Government to accept the amendment? I accept the point that the impartiality criterion is a difficult one. I have it from my noble friend Lord Bell—who is an expert sans pareil in handling information and in persuading people—that separating information from persuasion is always very difficult, although it can be done.

If those who draft the treaties and documents are serious, and if the Commission is serious, about bringing Europe nearer to the citizen, the thirst for information about what is implied in this treaty, and in others, must be met. That thirst is very great; it is much greater than it was even a few years ago. Thanks to the information revolution, people have far better access to information. The movement is afoot in Europe for a less centralised and less remote pattern of European institutions which no longer try to conduct our affairs from the top down.

The demand for plain English is admirable and right. We should resist "Euro-babble" wherever it occurs. There are inherent difficulties in the complex relations between nations being put together by treaties. This is an argument for fewer treaties and less activism by the central European institutions, so that what they do, and the responsibilities that they assume, can be explained in simpler words—in any language, but obviously in our native language, English, with which we are particularly concerned.

I hope that the amendment will be supported by all parties. I waited, breathless, to hear whether the Front Bench colleagues of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, were going to support it. In the end, I think I detected that discretion was to be the better part of valour, and that we should have wait another day for their support. I hope I am wrong. This is an excellent cause for all parties that believe in democracy, liberty and freedom. They should recognise its value and support it.

As my noble friend Lady Park of Monmouth rightly said, this is a constitutional matter—purveying to people what is being done to their constitution—not ours, but theirs—in their name. It is not only a financial matter. That should be understood before any referendum on the euro is called. I believe that it is increasingly being understood. The constitutional issues have now come to the centre of the debate.

The amendment does not affect the treaty. Those who are terrified of touching the treaty in any of its sacred aspects can be reassured. It merely brings a small ray, a beam, of common sense into this area, where there is so much babble about closeness to citizens and more democracy, and so little action. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will press his amendment to a decision. I certainly support it.

My Lords, might I ask what is probably a very stupid question? If the amendment is accepted, and if every household in the country receives a lovely communication through the door—clear, impartial, and written in beautiful English which everyone can understand—what happens if they decide on the basis of that information that they do not like the treaty? What can they do about it? I understand that there is not to be a referendum on the treaty. Will there be an election before the treaty comes into force? What can people do about it if they do not like it?

My Lords, to answer the last point raised by the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, first, there has been an election since the treaty was published. We stated categorically in our election manifesto that we would ratify the treaty if we were elected. The British people have had their chance and we all know what they said clearly in June.

Let us come back to the point of the amendment. I think that we all agree on the need for information about the Treaty of Nice and about the United Kingdom's membership of the European Union, although I must point out that the amendment is about only the constitutional and governmental effects of the Treaty of Nice, not the entire panoply of difficulties that some of your Lordships have expressed relating to some of the deeper constitutional issues, which are not solely to do with the Treaty of Nice. We can agree that it is important that we communicate to the public on the issue.

The Government have been doing that since before the Treaty of Nice was negotiated. We published a White Paper in February 2000 before the start of the IGC that led to Nice. That White Paper set out in clear and simple English the issues involved and the Government's approach. That document was and still is available on the Foreign Office website. In addition, we have regularly held debates on the issues in this House and in another place and we have provided further information to Parliament and to the public on the outcome of Nice. Parliament has received a detailed explanatory memorandum to accompany its consideration of the Bill, spelling out the issues. That is also available on the Foreign Office website.

The British public have also been able to secure a host of information on Nice and on the EU from the Foreign Office through our website, through our publications, through the media and through other organisations that many people use to secure information. Some of your Lordships also referred to the short booklet that the Government have published for the general public spelling out the issues. We believe that it spelt them out in the clear and impartial way referred to in the amendment. As we have already discussed, what some regard as impartial may not be altogether consistent with what others regard as impartial, but it is certainly the Government's view that the booklet is impartial. We send it out to anyone who writes to us about Nice.

All the necessary information has been made available. Mailing it to every household could be done only at disproportionate cost. It was not done for any of the previous treaties. I am sure that all your Lordships, who are tremendously knowledgeable about Europe, agree that some of those treaties were a great deal more radical than this treaty, including those negotiated by Conservative governments. I do not understand why it is suddenly so important to do that for the Treaty of Nice, which makes changes that are much less fundamental than those in some previous treaties.

Some of your Lordships have alluded to the considerable handicap that this country has, which most of our partners in the European Union do not have. It is one reason why the British public remain among the least informed on European issues. The problem is that it is very difficult to provide objective information on Europe via the media. Europe is an emotive issue in this country and a sensible debate through the media—a debate that does not include many raised voices—is almost impossible in this country. That is one reason why we target the public directly. We have already heard categoric statements from some of your Lordships repeating what has been put forward in the press recently relating to moves made in the Foreign Office for some sort or security council arrangements in the EU. That is plain nonsense, but some will believe what is put in the press. I did not hear the programme to which the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, referred earlier, but the funding in 1975 was voted for by Parliament. As far as I know, it was split equally. I do not know whether the noble Lord believes that the CIA was funding in addition to that or whether he believes that the CIA was funding both sides. One should not always believe everything that one hears a journalist say.

Let us leave that on one side and come back to the point of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said that it was not enough to have information on the Internet. Of course it is not enough in itself, although more than 55 per cent of the UK is in touch with the Internet. We have the highest Internet usage of any country in Europe. Thanks to this Government's policies, that figure is much higher for children and young people.

The information is made available on the Internet not just for those who access it directly. Your Lordships will know that media organisations and other so-called multipliers of information and news use the Internet as one of their primary sources. We are taking approximately 10,000 hits a month on the FCO website. Noble Lords may say that that is not very many. It may not be—although it is one of the highest usages of any official information in Whitehall—but those multipliers have to be brought into the equation. We believe that it is right for the Government to make such heavy investment in the Internet and in the ways we have published information.

That is just one part of our strategy of raising awareness about the EU. We also work in partnership with organisations, think tanks, private companies, institutions and others to spread information. We undertake research to show where the need for information is greatest and to develop the strategies that we believe are needed. I hope that your Lordships will be able to agree that that is a far more sophisticated and cost-effective way of providing information than simply sending out an unsolicited mailshot.

I have a great deal of sympathy for what my noble friend Lord Bruce said about the treaties being incomprehensible. That is why we are so supportive of what the convention is trying to do and of the aims of the IGC in 2004. However, I am bound to say that my noble friend's point would not be met by the amendment, which is closely focused on Nice alone, not what has gone on before. He will be much better helped by the proposals that the Government are supporting on the IGC. Of course there are problems with the criss-crossing of the references between various treaties, conventions and declarations. That is why we have said that a simplification of the treaties is very important, with a view to making them clearer and better understood, without changing their meaning.

The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, referred to the letter that I sent him. As with many issues, I believe that these matters require careful reading. Sometimes documents have to be read two or three times to understand exactly what is meant. I am not at all unhappy that it was a British draft that went forward to make it absolutely clear that there should not be leaking of money from European sources into national political parties. His main point was that the provision was not clear and the words were gobbledegook. A lot of such provisions are very difficult to understand. That is why we need to look clearly at the treaties. I have great sympathy with the noble Lord. Noble Lords will be able to judge for themselves about the gobbledegook from the letter that has gone into the Library of the House.

My Lords, the noble Baroness must concede that the letter does not say what she says that it ought to have said. What would have been wrong if the declaration had said that the provision of Article 191 does not affect in any way the right of member states to regulate their own political parties? That—rather than what it says—is apparently what it means.

My Lords, the declaration says that it does not affect the application of the relevant national constitutional rules. I agree that that is not as clear as what the noble Lord just said, but it is perfectly clear to those who understand the ways in which such conventions and treaties work. I am far more of a novice, I am sure, than the noble Lord, but even I understand that that is what it is trying to say. I also think that it says it, although perhaps not as articulately as he has just done. I also suggest to him that it is not quite as much of a minefield as he suggests. However, your Lordships can judge for yourselves as the letter is in the Library.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, was quite right that the earlier treaties were written by those who did not have the same sensitivity to the importance of public understanding of what the government do. That is absolutely true. These are enormously complex issues in which we are constantly making cross-referrals. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is a past master at that. He is extraordinarily nimble in nipping about the various treaties, making cross-references. That is why it is so important for us to take these issues forward in the IGC.

Let us talk about cost. When the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, originally raised the issue with us, he estimated that the cost would be about £5 million. I should say that the Foreign Office has great experience of tendering for leaflets. Additionally, we checked with our FCO print suppliers, who are employed on a value-for-money basis, and they agreed with the noble Lord that the cost would be about £5 million. The noble Lord has now reduced his estimate, and told us the basis on which he did so. I am hound to tell him, however, that government tendering is always very difficult; we have, for example, to take competitive bids. In relation to this specific proposal, we have also considered value for money. On that basis, we agree with his original estimate.

However trivial the noble Lord may think such a sum, in Foreign Office terms, it is a great deal of money: it is 20 times our annual budget for public diplomacy on the European Union; in other words, 20 times what we have in the kitty for informing the public on these issues. We have £250,000, with which we manage to fund a huge range of projects—targeting those who know the least about the EU, giving them information, and trying to stimulate debate. I think that that is far more effective than sending out an essentially unsolicited mailshot on just the Nice treaty—which, as we all know following the deliberations on this Bill, contains technical amendments and would mean virtually nothing to the vast majority of the public.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said that that would be "reaching out". I truly do not believe that blowing £5 million on such a leaflet would be reaching out as he seemed to suggest. It would also entail our cancelling all our current work in providing information on the EU.

What are we doing? I was asked to give some examples of what more we could do. The noble Lord, Lord Bell, said that he was encouraged by my earlier comment that we could be doing more. We are, first, funding a series of visits to all regions of the United Kingdom to talk about Europe directly to people in companies and organisations and to hear what concerns them. I myself was doing that only two Fridays ago.

Secondly, we are funding an information campaign to give people the facts that they need on introduction in the euro-zone of euro notes and coins.

Thirdly, we are funding academics to examine the issues surrounding the future of Europe and to give us their insights—of course on an impartial basis—by means of discussion in seminars and papers which are distributed.

Fourthly, we make grants to organisations to bring together the public and opinion formers in open debates on Europe.

Fifthly, we are in partnership with the Post Office to make available information on Europe in Britain's post offices.

Sixthly, we give money to an organisation running a European youth parliament which publicises the EU among young people from diverse backgrounds—thereby dealing with the inclusion point—and in their educational institutions. Our research shows that young people are one of the least educated groups on Europe.

Seventhly, we run various projects to raise awareness of the EU among women—which is another group that the surveys tell us are less informed on Europe than we should like.

I think that that is real reaching out, trying to see where the need is and focusing on that real need. I believe that that is a far more genuine and—to use the term used by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—"imaginative" reaching out than the mailshot which he tried to persuade us would be so much more imaginative.

I have gone through that long list because it is important that your Lordships do not think that we are sitting on our laurels and doing nothing about the issue; we are doing a great deal. I have described just a small sample of the work that the Government are doing to raise awareness on Europe. Crucially, if your Lordships were to be successful on the issue and the Government proceeded on that basis, it would he possible to proceed on none of what I have just enumerated.

I am proud of our record on genuinely reaching out to those whom we need to get more in tune with events in Europe and inform better. I think that we are taking the right action, which is far better than seeing all the money thrown away for the sake of a narrowly cast, ill-targeted and unsolicited mailshot, which I honestly do not believe will go much further than most people's dustbins.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, argued that we provide information in general elections. Of course we do, but general elections are times of high political drama. During general elections, there is an active curiosity about policies and candidates. I therefore believe that the amendment raises a genuinely separate issue. Moreover, as we have discussed, such issues are very often much more complicated than the types of reason why people vote in general elections.

I hope that I have persuaded your Lordships that the Government are not against informing the people of Britain about the Nice treaty or about our policies on Europe. Indeed, we are doing much more than any previous government to raise awareness on Europe. I think that that is the right approach.

I remind some noble Lords opposite that, earlier this year, when I circulated an unsolicited document on the changeover to euro notes and coins, some of your Lordships came to me to object that it was unsolicited and that I should not have had the temerity to send it. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is asking us to do that on a grand scale. It is very interesting indeed that the Conservative Party has embraced the proposal quite so enthusiastically. I think that a far better strategy is that which I have outlined to your Lordships. I hope that your Lordships will be able to support the Government and reject the amendment.

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all who have taken part in this mini-debate, which has been very interesting and illuminating. It would be wrong, having proceeded for an hour and 10 minutes, for me to do more than touch on a very few points.

I cannot help but resist the principal point made by the Minister, that all the Foreign Office's other initiatives would cease if the proposal were adopted. That is a question of the Government getting their finances in order. They have spent £66 million so far on informing business about entry to the euro; to spend £5 million—if that is what the sum is, although I believe it to be a great deal less—on informing the public about the Nice treaty seems to be a very proportionate amount.

Noble Lords have made various positive points, although there have been some negative ones. Some noble Lords have said that implementing such a proposal is impossible; some have said that it is not the right time; some said that we should have done it earlier; and some said that one cannot be impartial. I think that those are all defeatist arguments, and that if we believed them we should pack up and go home. Whatever else one may say and whatever arguments may be adduced, I do not think that any person in this Chamber would deny that we have a massive problem of public ignorance about the European Union and resentment about the fact that they are ignored and overlooked in relation to it.

It is a massive problem, and nothing that the Minister said came anywhere near to dealing with it. With 10,000 hits a month on the Foreign Office's website, it would take almost 500 years for the whole population to obtain information from the wretched thing. We also know that it would be out of date every year. The website is a pathetic justification of inaction and goes nowhere near dealing with the scale of the problem that we have in this country.

Therefore, encouraged as I am by those who have supported the amendment, I should like to test the opinion of the House.

rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what they are doing to promote Northern Ireland's welfare within the European Union now that the Republic of Ireland has adopted euro coins and notes.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the euro has landed and has landed successfully. Nowhere in the United Kingdom will its arrival be more influential than in Northern Ireland, sharing, as it does, a euro-land border with the Republic. It is time to wake up to that reality and to assess the obvious and the less obvious implications of the euro's success on the welfare of the people of Northern Ireland.

In making that assessment I am grateful to those noble Lords who will contribute to the debate tonight. The depth of their experience of Northern Ireland is as oceans to my puddle of knowledge. I hope that they will forgive me if I intrude this debate into your Lordships' House when the peace process has yet to be fully secured. But the world moves on and I believe that this is too important a debate to leave idling on a vacant plot.

I am also grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House for consenting to reply to the debate. He will know that last week's NOP poll showed the Principality voting in favour of accepting the euro and that Holyhead in his own beloved north Wales is prepared for the euro, just as in the past it has traded in the punt. Why is that? It is because, as the local Daily Post has put it,

"The consumer must be served".

It is just so with Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland has the opportunity to lead the United Kingdom in showing Britain the way by promoting, through adopting the euro, the restoration of the common currency that existed in the British Isles for some 50 years in the past century. Indeed, Northern Ireland, by adopting the euro de facto if not de jure, can remind Britain that one of the not unimportant reasons for the United Kingdom going in is to offer solidarity to Ireland in its own bold embrace of the euro. Good neighbours, I remind your Lordships, make good friends.

But even as we debate, the acceptance of the euro is gathering apace. The Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce reports that seven out of 10 of its 4,000 members favour entry, manufacturing industry, hard hit by an overvalued pound, being even more enthusiastic than the service sector. Retail industry in border towns is showing the way by facilitating a dual currency economy more intense than the punt/pound exchange which preceded it. In Newry, at the new shopping centre of The Quays, euros are now available directly from cash machines. As Declan McChesney of the local chamber of commerce and trade puts it,

"We will use the euro to facilitate the growth of shopping in Newry",

a town only one hour's drive from half the population of the island of Ireland.

The changeover from punt to euro acceptability has also been enlisted to help Newry's bid to achieve city status in the Queen's Golden Jubilee Year. In passing. I remind some English eurosceptics that notes in Northern Ireland and Scotland have never borne the Queen's head—so often touted as a sine qua non of a nation's sovereignty. Kevin Murdoch of Newry Building Supplies Limited, with a staff of 95 and a turnover of £17 million, declared that his firm will accept euros or lose business.

In Londonderry, managing director Luke Hasson of the 165 year-old family owned department store, Austin and Co, declared that his firm is moving with the times and that the euro will be good for Northern Ireland business because,

"The new single currency will now deliver price transparency on both sides of the border".

Even in Belfast, stores such as Eason's will accept euro coins and notes where formerly punt coins were refused. The euro, with its hinterland of a single market of 300 million people and growing, betokens more than a simple foreign currency replacement for the punt which previously served just 1 per cent of that population in the Republic.

Northern Ireland is admirably placed to reach into the deep pockets of that ever expanding single European market. Other businesses and industries are now mobilising to catch the swelling tide of that commerce. Sir Reg Empey, as Northern Ireland tourism Minister, notes that two-thirds of inbound tourists will hail from euro-land. Rightly, he is encouraging a joint marketing of the tourist attractions of Ireland north and south. When cash rich American tourists return to Europe this summer on multi-destination tours of euro-land, an excursion to a euro-compliant Northern Ireland will be attractive and possible and thus will bring jobs and prosperity to the north.

Or take the small tourist village of Belleek, the most westerly point of the United Kingdom, where Mr Michael McGrath hires out holiday cottages to continental tour operators. For the past two years his tariffs have been expressed in euros.

"Even the electricity in the cottages is priced in euros"

declares this forward looking entrepreneur.

Tourism is a crucial industry for Northern Ireland and one where the euro will be a determining factor. So, too, with farming. Douglas Rowe, President of the Ulster Farmers' Union, bemoans the current strength of sterling which has had such a negative effect on farm incomes. As well as sucking food imports into Northern Ireland, agri-food exports are less competitive in the broader trading zone of the 300 million people in euro-land, Mr Rowe asserts. He notes also that farm support payments, set in euros, significantly reduce when converted to the blighted, Blighty pound. And, as with any other business, uncertainty in these matters is an inhibitor of sensible planning, investment and development. Small businesses, and not just those in the agri-food sector, are particularly vulnerable. But it is heartening to hear the positive response of David Shaw, Northern Ireland deputy president of the normally eurosceptical Federation of Small Businesses. Shaw suggests that the euro has opened up a new trade route for Northern Ireland. In the future, goods and services will be brought in via the south and not through Britain because,

"of the eurozone's greater price transparency".

The banking and financial products industries are, of course, in the front line of euroseep. Incidentally, I reject the pejorative phrase "eurocreep". Apart from the fact that it rhymes with Uriah Heep, I consider myself a euro warrior, not a eurocreep. No wonder, then, that the Ulster Bank has held over 100 seminars helping customers to familiarise themselves with the new currency. It is anxious, if not unctuous, for the new business that is available. Indeed, this is hardheaded business speaking, not the academic reflections of an end of Business debate in the House of Lords on a cold Tuesday evening in January.

If ever further proof were needed of the effectiveness and reality of the new currency, let me now turn to a life of crime. Cross-border smugglers dealing in everything from petrol, cigarettes and sheep, are fully euro happy. Drug runners and money lenders are euro conversant. The new 500 euro note is undoubtedly a useful bill of exchange for money launderers. Those crimes will not come out in the wash unless we take active steps to combat the single European market of crime and criminals as it manifests itself at Ireland's cross-border point. One further thought on things nefarious. If the euro is good enough for the wicked, then, in my teenage children's parlance of superlatives, it ought to be "wicked" enough for the rest of us!

On 4th December last year, the Northern Ireland Assembly debated the euro for the first time, on the motion of requesting government help to acclimatise Northern Ireland to its de facto dual currency status. That was, of course, an interim proposal, for the real ambition must be for the United Kingdom to enter EMU, as is stated government policy, provided that the five economic tests are met. Northern Ireland is a sixth economic test, and the Government must not offload responsibility for the current state of play by referring all matters to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Assembly is plainly looking to Her Majesty's Government for a lead and guidance on this national—indeed, supranational—issue.

How will Her Majesty's Government respond to Northern Ireland's peculiar position as euro border country? How will the Government strengthen the fight against euro-related crime? How will they invigorate the fight for jobs, business and prosperity in businesses as diverse as retail, farming, tourism and finance, which will be increasingly subject to euro-seep? How will the Government further help the excellent Northern Ireland Euro Preparations Forum in its pivotal role of awakening business and citizens to the fact of the euro? And how will they help the Northern Ireland Assembly in its task of improving the daily lives of its citizens as a result of the onset of the euro? Will Ulsterbus, for example, give change in euros on both sides of the border? Will students from Northern Ireland on foreign study courses be able to collect their grants in euros? And how will Her Majesty's Government promote Northern Ireland as a euro-friendly location for inward foreign direct investment?

In closing, I turn to Northern Ireland's engagement with the EU and the European Commission. Northern Ireland has in effect been an Objective 1 area for a number of years. How will money from Brussels, such as the £500 million that is now being released under the "Peace II" programme, be handled? Will Northern Ireland lose out because we are out of the euro zone?

Do the Government believe that the coming of the currency will benefit the peace process? When I was an MEP, I used to observe with hope my fellow parliamentary colleagues, Messrs Hume, Nicholson and Paisley, together approach Presidents Delors and Santer when it came to fighting for money and help from Brussels for Northern Ireland. Is it too much to hope that, in the words of David, a market-stall jeweller in Newry, who was quoted recently in the Observer,

"the euro will make people think in a manner which is practical, not sectarian in nature"?

Is it too much to hope that the coming of the euro may be linked with the coming of peace? Can the different traditions on the island of Ireland find a common home in our diverse and diversifying European Union, which is now advancing with a single currency?

My Lords, I would like to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for initiating this debate in your Lordships' House today. I was most interested in what the noble Lord had to say.

I should declare a kind of interest in this subject because I am the president of the Northern Ireland European Movement—future developments in Europe being a subject in which I have been interested for some time. As a member of a small, in global terms, people who see themselves under pressure on all sides, I welcome the potential change of focus and reassurance offered in a new Europe.

As an Ulster Unionist living on the island of Ireland, the experience can be like that of living in a row of houses where every other resident wants you evicted and will use all means to do so. The Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Brian Cowen, wants to "hollow out all Britishness" from Northern Ireland, and that can only include me and my family. Such fascist talk would not be allowed if Europe was the Europe of the regions, celebrating and valuing all its peoples and their cultures.

The idea of the euro is nothing new. When euro-land celebrated the issue of its first notes and coins, did anyone raise a glass to Richard Whately, the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin, who proposed the establishment of a uniform currency in Europe exactly 150 years ago? The archbishop proposed that the design of the coins should have no indication of nationality which might awaken national jealousies. That even meant dropping the image of Queen Victoria—a bold idea in the mid-19th century.

For the record, Richard Whately was born in London in 1787, was a former professor of political economy at Oxford and was Archbishop of Dublin from 1831 until 1863, which was not an easy period in Irish history—not that there are any easy periods in Irish history.

As has already been pointed out, Northern Ireland differs from any other part of the United Kingdom with regard to the euro because of its land border with euro-land. There can be no doubt that special measures are required for the Province. To put things simply, until 31st December 2001, we had a minor currency on our doorstep; from 1st January 2002, we have a major global currency on that doorstep. Previously, tourists and business visitors travelling from, say, Dublin to Belfast would want to change their currency to sterling. I suggest that they may now not be so keen to move from that major currency to sterling; they would expect to be able to continue to use their euros.

It is my understanding from all that I have read and heard that the changeover in coinage and notes has had little, if any, negative effect on the border regions of Northern Ireland. In most areas, retail businesses are operating in both currencies. I reflect the words of the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, who paid tribute to the entrepreneurs and businessmen of Northern Ireland; to them, like all true businessmen, business is business and politics is politics, and they do not necessarily—if ever—intertwine.

Business people are well versed in the meaning of the changeover. Here I feel that it would be only fair to pay tribute to the Northern Ireland Euro Preparations Forum for the way in which it has prepared, without taking sides, the ground for the euro. The forum—a small group of businessmen supported by a unit in the Northern Ireland Civil Service—has run a campaign of seminars and media information throughout the Province that has received much praise. I again noted the words of the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, when he talked about the work of organisations such as Ulster Bank and the CBI. I join him in his tributes.

Without doubt the biggest area in which help for Northern Ireland is required is the ensuring of a fair allocation of funding, especially in view of the possible inclusion of new states. The second is to ensure that every support and help is given to industry to expand and invest. American investors, for example, will look with renewed interest at investing in the Republic because of its location now in a larger economy instead of Northern Ireland. Those issues have to be examined and a counter-balance given.

Continued and enhanced methods of promoting Northern Ireland are vital. The key issue for me is the enhancing of representation at the heart of Europe. The office in Brussels that looks after Northern Ireland's interests must be supported in all respects. It is my view that that is the vital element of welfare that Northern Ireland requires in this challenging period.

My Lards, I. too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for providing us with an opportunity to reassure our good citizens in Northern Ireland and thus enabling them to cope with what I regard as rather limited challenges.

An element of society for which I do not have authority to speak are the money launderers in both the North and the South. But the Irish Times provides a staple diet of financial scandals and tribunals. I am told that on day one when the euro came to Dublin a steady stream of handcarts conveyed obsolete punts to banks where, unfortunately, awkward questions were asked about where so many punts had been for all those years. No doubt the Irish Times will in due course provide pages of answers courtesy of the relevant tiresome tax authorities. The tax authorities are very tiresome so far as concerns launderers.

My assessment of the impact of the Irish Republic joining the euro is that, although there may be temporary minor problems, they will prove to be no greater than the hiccups which occurred when the Irish punt came into being. Then, we had two currencies working quite happily within one geographical unit and that was not seen as much of an obstacle.

Agriculture is the victim of some uncertainty, but that appears to arise from, and be caused by, delays in making payments where the decision-making is far too cumbersome. Those disadvantages require attention. I say without any bitter criticism of the department of agriculture and its convoluted name throughout the United Kingdom that there are times when it could take rather more, and speedier, notice of Northern Ireland's special problems, in particular in the drawing down of certain payments where an inexplicable delay appears to occur.

The tobacco industry in Northern Ireland is vulnerable, but for an entirely different reason. Concern arises not from the euro or exchange rates but, rather, from taxation rates and from the Government's current tax policy, which has fuelled the demand for non-UK duty-paid cigarettes. Such cigarettes already account for around one-third of the market. The fear is that any further increase in that taxation will raise the demand for, and the attraction to, non-UK duty-paid cigarettes with disastrous effects on United Kingdom manufacturers.

It would be churlish to ignore the Chancellor's recent decision to move away from above-inflation tax increases. It is hoped that that will not be a one-off step in one Budget but a move which will be continued over a period of years—this is not a quick-fix issue—otherwise, the percentage of smuggled cigarettes will increase from the horrifying figure of 16.5 billion in 2000–01, representing a staggering 21 per cent of the market.

Therefore, it is a great mistake to imagine that Irish entry into the euro-zone will transform trading conditions in any particular commodity. I am not dismissing the minor problems arising from the introduction of the euro in the other end of the island, but I believe that we can—one may say this facetiously—depend on the ingenuity of the Irish to nullify any and all resulting inconveniences. They are very good at that.

My Lords, I was not intending to speak this evening but am prompted to do so by one or two remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison. The noble Lord complained about the strength of sterling. However, perhaps I may point out to him that over the past two or three years sterling has not risen against the US dollar, the Canadian dollar, the Swiss franc, the Swedish krona, the Australian dollar or the New Zealand dollar; indeed, it has weakened against some of those currencies and, specifically, against the American dollar. The international community has had grave doubts about the euro—not in relation to the changeover as such but the long or medium-term viability of economic and monetary union with a single interest rate fitting all countries with widely differing economies.

The noble Lord then went on to talk about the problems faced by traders in the border areas and of how they will have to adapt to the euro in order to survive. Of course, I take his point that some are adapting, and good luck to them; I hope that they profit from it. But American tourists who cross the border at Niagara Falls to the Canadian side must change their US dollars into Canadian dollars, unless things have changed in the four or five years since I was last there. French people who go to Geneva to shop—it is usually the other way round; the French economy is much larger than the Swiss one—must change their French francs into Swiss francs.

Therefore, there is nothing new about the problems faced by traders in Newry or anywhere else in the North. It may be to their advantage to take euros but it is not the end of the world. People who live in border areas elsewhere are quite used to changing money. Frankly, I believe that the noble Lord is exaggerating somewhat when he says that it will he an absolute necessity for everyone in Northern Ireland to take the euro.

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, on initiating this timely debate. I shall echo many of his arguments.

Because Northern Ireland has, as the noble Lord said, the UK's only land border with the euro-zone, it is likely to feel the impact of the euro rather more keenly than Great Britain. In one sense, of course, because of its geographical proximity to the Irish Republic, Northern Ireland has been used to intensive trans-border commerce and the concomitant currency exchange for three-quarters of a century.

As is common in all border areas between nation states, the Irish boundary reveals a sharp and immediate appreciation on the part of consumers of the effects of currency fluctuations on the relative prices of goods. The Irish punt and the pound sterling originally had the same parity until the Irish Republic, on joining the European Community, decided to stop pegging the punt to the pound. Since then, punt and pound, suitably and swiftly adjusted to reflect whatever the prevailing parities the finance markets determined between the two currencies, have long been virtually interchangeable. And so it has continued ever since the Irish Republic joined the euro.

We should rejoice in the good news that Northern Ireland is well placed to be the leading region in the UK in terms of adopting and adapting to the new euro coins and notes and participating fully in the euro-zone whenever the UK decides formally to enter.

As other noble Lords have remarked, the preparation both for living alongside the euro and, later, for belonging to the euro-zone has been quite well undertaken, particularly in Northern Ireland. Not least, as I said, that derives as much from its experiences of living with a floating punt over the past 20 years. Ireland's full participation in the euro should also give Northern Ireland a competitive advantage if that is widely recognised and the opportunity afforded fully seized; that is to say, it can piggy-back on the Irish Republic's enthusiastic and extensive participation in the commercial life of the European Union. It was that, as much as anything else, that promoted the emergence of the "Tiger" economy.

When it joined the European Union, Ireland determined to throw off its old stereotype of a rural, conservative and rather nationalist community with more than a touch of theocracy in its system of government. One might say that it substituted the de Valera approach for the value-added one. Its embrace of Europe was wholehearted and without qualification, so that now it has become a modern liberal democracy with an economy based more on technology than agriculture. It is also a country that more than pulls its weight in peace-keeping operations throughout the troubled parts of this world.

Northern Ireland should be encouraged to follow that example. Of course, there are voices to be heard that are replete with nostalgic expressions for the emblems, flags and insignia of yesteryear. In recent years they have seized on the defence of the pound sterling and have been against the UK adopting the euro. Whatever the case for Euroscepticism, this must be the weakest. Northern Ireland, both because of its geographical position and its unfortunate history, has more to gain economically and politically than any other part of the United Kingdom in becoming an integral part of Europe, including membership of the euro. Most sensible people in Northern Ireland realise that, especially the business sector, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and echoed by another noble Lord. That has been in the forefront of all these debates. All sections of the community know how much Northern Ireland has benefited from having Objective 1 status in the European Union, and having the added bonus of the Peace Dividend moneys from Brussels. Even Ian Paisley knows that: in his role as an MEP, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, he quite properly sought to maximise the amount of European money that Northern Ireland receives, even though for domestic consumption he adopts a strident anti-European stance. Whatever the short-term political gains that he achieves from this, this incoherent and inconsistent posturing serves the longer-term economic and the wider political interests of Northern Ireland very badly indeed.

Her Majesty's Government would best promote those interests by taking a very much more positive lead in advocating the case that, on balance, the sooner the UK joins the euro the better for all concerned. The continuous incantation of the mantra of the Chancellor's five principles increasingly lacks credibility as a reason for further prevarication and procrastination. Were he free to do so, I am sure that the noble and learned Lord the Minister would agree with my main contention that the future of Northern Ireland's welfare within the European Union would be for the UK as a whole to decide to join the euro-zone within the next few months.

My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for giving us the opportunity to pursue this most interesting debate, which. I suspect, could continue for a long time in other circumstances. As noble Lords know, I have lived in Northern Ireland for most of the latter part of my life. I worked as a chief executive of a subsidiary to a multinational plc for 25 of those years, and was pretty familiar with dealing in a variety of currencies from around the world, as well as being used to conducting business both north and south of the border.

As other noble Lords have said, people in the whole of Ireland are accustomed to dealing in multi-currencies. Ever since Dublin left the sterling standard and the punt was created we have had two currencies in the island: the punt and the pound. During my time in business the exchange rate has fluctuated enormously—probably in the total of my lifetime from minus 20 to plus 20, or something in that region, with a 40 per cent variance over the years. But no one fusses about that. You can go to any shop almost anywhere in either country and pay with sterling or with punt and receive the right change with account being made of the currency differentials. So we are completely used to trading and living in the retail world, and in the tourist world, with a variety of currencies.

The dollar is not a stranger in the Province, or in Ireland. As is well known, many of our kinsmen live in the United States or in Canada. They return home at least once a year, and also send money home. Therefore, we could argue that we are used to dealing with three currencies.

I have read some of the same newspaper cuttings mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, but I put a slightly different emphasis on them. According to my information there is really no great disturbance, or problem, with the prospect of having two currencies.

However, it is worth noting that the location of a nation's economic base, as well as the nature of its economic neighbours, are both important and relevant. The six counties of Ulster have the huge benefit of being part of the United Kingdom, which, arguably, is the second most powerful economic nation in the world. They will not want to give that up for a currency that has, frankly, failed so far; indeed, one that has not shown any great value or benefit.

Why are we nervous about this development? First, 80 per cent of the exports from Northern Ireland go outside the euro-zone. Secondly, Ireland made a very hit-and-miss decision to join the euro in a hurry. At that time, I believe that they made what was probably for them the right decision, but one that was taken at the wrong time. The Irish had to reduce their interest rates by 2 to 3 per cent in order to join the euro when their economy was—and still is—seriously overheating. That took away their ability to manage the overheating and the in-built inflation. We do not know what will happen at the end of this period. However, if they come down with what I believe is known as a "bumpy landing", it will be uncomfortable for Northern Ireland, and perhaps for others. But they did themselves some good because they negotiated a very good deal with the Germans. They came in with a very good punt/mark parity.

But so much for that part of the equation. There are other matters that impact on the situation. There are exchange rate repercussions. Our exchange rate is tied to sterling, which means that we have quite a significant difference in exchange rates between Europe and the United Kingdom; indeed, that is well understood and well known. But what will that mean to a small economy like that of Northern Ireland? It is not all bad news. Certainly retailing will be squeezed, and there will also be a surge of certain types of imports, but there will also be a significant increase—there has been and it continues—in property speculation, as well as money coming in and going out from the South.

I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, referred to money coming in in wheelbarrows. With a strong currency, there is an opportunity to go and have fun in a cheaper country. People are investing in the Republic. As the world goes on, I am sure that those investments will both grow and improve. Therefore, in the personal sector, you could say that there is an opportunity for a windfall. There is a well-known saying, "Earn in a strong currency, and spend in a weak currency".

There is yet another factor that is, perhaps, more important and more effective than anything else. I am not arguing for a special case for Northern Ireland, but we do have taxation problems that have been imposed upon us. We have significantly higher taxes on tobacco products, and that is exacerbated by the exchange rate differences. We have significantly increased taxes on fuel and on heavy goods vehicles. When added to the exchange rate difference, that has a very negative effect.

There is one further tax that has just come on board, so to speak; namely, the aggregate tax. This is a 10 per cent tax on all aggregates extracted and used in Northern Ireland. This is a serious problem because the granite base and much of the aggregate base is found in the border areas. It means that "Bloggs" across the road has a considerable advantage over his competitors in the North because he is not paying his aggregate tax. It is not only the stone, it is also the products into which the stone is placed. I have in mind black top for the roads, concrete blocks, and so on. We have a serious problem in that respect, and one that is impacting quite badly. It is made a great deal worse because Customs and Excise are simply not equipped to manage the smuggling that is taking place. Technically, if the law were adhered to, everyone coming across the border with aggregates of any sort would be made to pay the taxes. But we all know what happens. The only time that we have ever managed to shut the border, with great help from the Irish Republic, was during the time of the foot and mouth outbreak. They could not keep the terrorists from travelling backwards and forwards, but for a while, thank goodness, they kept the sheep and the cattle from travelling backwards and forwards.

At this stage, dealing with the problem is not realistic, unless Her Majesty's Government are prepared to get together with the Republic and put much more effort and more resources into Customs and Excise to manage smuggling. Smuggling leads to crime. Most smuggling is well organised by gangs of paramilitaries and criminals, so there are many financial and trading difficulties, but that is in no way related to the fact that we no longer handle punts but euros.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Harrison for initiating this debate. It is particularly topical to me because I had the great benefit and pleasure of being in Northern Ireland on Thursday, Friday and Saturday of last week. I should like to thank the noble Lords, Lord Molyneaux, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird—the latter was good enough to introduce a number of his colleagues—for the extremely informed and civilised conversation we had on problems of all sorts.

In the past I have had the benefit of talking to local politicians, such as Sir Reg Empey, and more recently, thanks to the courtesy of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, the Speaker of the Assembly, to a disparate group including business people, such as Dr Diljit Rana, who was originally from the Punjab, but who now thrives in business and in life, contributing to the community by serving, I believe, as a justice of the peace.

I hope that on these occasions we regard ourselves as colleagues in a common endeavour. This evening we are in danger of agreeing with each other. That must mean something: perhaps gloomily that we are all getting too used to each other, but I am sure it means something more positive.

The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, was right to say that Northern Ireland has a resourceful population which is able to adapt and to benefit. I hope that the success—I know he was referring to success in the context of business—will show itself in the wider political dimension.

As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, said, and as other noble Lords have echoed, Northern Ireland has a land border with the euro-zone, a characteristic that I believe in the rest of the European Union is shared only by Sweden and Denmark. As noble Lords have said, for a long time Northern Ireland has been familiar with informal arrangements for trading in dual currencies. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, said that Northern Ireland has been used to dealing with more than dual currencies if one takes into account the dollar.

I believe that it will be said that since the euro is a major currency, there will be more demand for its acceptance than there was for the punt. That may be so, but as noble Lords have said, in the past Northern Ireland, its business people and its economy have been able to make opportunities out of divergences and I am sure that they will continue to do so in the future.

It is fair to say that in general Europe has been a good friend to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland received over £930 million from EU Objective 1. Even in the time that I have known Northern Ireland—only 10 years—that has transformed the Laganside area of Belfast, has upgraded the Belfast to Dublin rail link and has set up an electricity interconnector with Scotland.

There is the further allocation of £575 million for a transitional Objective 1 programme for the period 2000 to 2006. In the context of the population of Northern Ireland, those are not insignificant sums. Northern Ireland has received £73 million under the Community initiatives funding, and further substantial funding to which your Lordships have referred under initiatives Peace 1 and Peace 2. The European Union has also contributed some £29 million to the International Fund for Ireland, which supports developments on both sides of the border.

We need to bear in mind that the devolved Assembly has an important role to play. I believe that we should all bend our backs to support that Assembly, to which the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, paid such tribute last evening. Foreign policy is a matter for the United Kingdom Government under the terms of the Northern Ireland Act, but the Executive has a significant role to play. I believe that that will develop. The noble Lord, Lord Laird, was good enough to commend the work of the Northern Ireland Euro Preparation Forum. The Executive in Northern Ireland has been heavily involved in preparing and helping local businesses in that endeavour.

I also believe that the Executive has done extremely well—I refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. Its lobbying was critical in the early granting of foot and mouth disease-free status to Northern Ireland. Even in its short life, it has had significant successes, rather more than the Jeremiahs would pretend. It is absolutely essential that I underline the commitment of Her Majesty's Government to the Northern Ireland Executive and to the developing role that it will play in the European context.

I turn to some particular points. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, was right to talk about the problems of organised crime, also referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Molyneaux and Lord Glentoran. The task force, chaired by my colleague, Jane Kennedy, the Minister with responsibility for security, is having notable successes, particularly in the context of cigarette smuggling where recently there have been significant, notable seizures.

The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, spoke about prosecutors. I entirely agree with what he said. Whenever prosecutors on a pan-European basis get together, they agree that borders are not a barrier to organised crime; they offer an opportunity. Therefore, we must ready ourselves for joint actions on prosecutions, whether in the Northern Ireland context, the Republic of Ireland context, the wider United Kingdom context, or increasingly in the general European context.

Of course, the director of public prosecutions in Northern Ireland—an admirable public servant with whom I worked closely for two years—has a statutory relationship with the Attorney-General in the United Kingdom and therefore co-operation is already available. In the context of what the noble Lord, Lord Laird, said about culture, it is heartening that the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages makes specific reference not only to the Irish language, but also to the Ulster Scots language on which he gave me a concentrated seminar. I was grateful for that because I have a personal interest in the survival and the continuing prosperity of the Welsh language in Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Laird, scored a notable first. He referred to an historical incident 150 years ago, which is only a second or two away in terms of Irish matters. He referred to an historical incident and drew benefit and optimism from it. We do not often hear of such matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, distressed me because I used to be a practising member of the Bar. I am a member of the Bar of England and Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. When he spoke of the plethora of tribunals offering gainful and profitable employment to lawyers, I sighed and wished I were back at the Bar again. There appear to be more tribunals in the Republic of Ireland than there are days of the week. I know that this is a private occasion and that this will go no further, so I can tell your Lordships that I suggested that if the number of tribunals ever declined in the Republic they should set up a tribunal on tribunals. I intend that as a modest joke, but it was seized upon with acclamation and applause by all the barristers in Dublin.

This short discussion demonstrates three points: one, the resilience that has admirably demonstrated itself over the past years; two, the capacity for adaptation, change, reform and improvement that has been shown in Northern Ireland; and three, that, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, pointed out, the coming of the euro will prove itself to be a significant opportunity for Northern Ireland. Even in this brief time I believe that it is showing signs of success. I repeat my personal gratitude for the content and tone of all the speeches that we have heard this evening, and to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for offering us this opportunity.