asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, the Plan of Implementation agreed at the World Summit on Sustainable Development re-affirmed existing agreements on human rights and stressed the importance of good governance in all countries. The Johannesburg summit recognised that good governance within each country and at the international level is essential for sustainable development. It also stressed the importance of peace, stability and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Do the Government accept that the framework for promoting good governance has been seriously weakened by Libya's appointment to chair the UN Commission on Human Rights? Did the Government use the opportunity of the world summit to protest against that bizarre and worrying decision?

My Lords, noble Lords will be aware that the UN Commission on Human Rights is made up of 54 member states. Votes take place each year so it is difficult for any one country or any group of countries to gain a sense of who will be voted on to the commission. The noble Lord will know that serious lobbying takes place. There is no doubt that the human rights mechanisms of the UN have been weakened by that process. We did not protest at WSSD but we have made our views on human rights and on good governance in Africa absolutely clear. I am sure that the Libyans understand our views.

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that in the context of Johannesburg there is widespread respect for the commitment and leadership that she and her colleagues have shown? Does she accept that in relation to what she said about good governance internationally, it is essential that we do not fall into the trap of saying, "Do as we say", as distinct from, "Do as we do"? Does she also accept that there is a major issue of credibility in the environmental sphere, as the lion's share of pollution is caused by the industrialised, developed world, and that in that context it is absolutely essential to persuade our American friends to come on board in a collective policy?

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his kind remarks. Those who represented the UK Government at the summit did so extremely well. While the results were not all that we would have hoped for, they were certainly much better than we had anticipated following the meeting held in Bali.

I agree that credibility is essential, and that is why the commitment on implementation that came out of WSSD is so important. Noble Lords will be aware that we have been in discussion with our colleagues in the United States. We do not share their concerns, for example, about the Kyoto Protocol. It is important that the United States comes on board in respect of this agenda and we shall continue to do all that we can to work with our American colleagues to enable that to happen.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the agreements reached at the world summit need to stick? There is a plan of implementation and it reads like a huge set of exhortations and aspirations. To be certain of delivery, can the Minister indicate how the plan is to be audited, including improvements to governance and human rights?

My Lords, I totally agree with the noble Lord that it is important that the commitments stick. That is why the commitment to implementation that came out of WSSD is so important. There will be different mechanisms in terms of monitoring the commitments that have been made. The noble Lord will be aware that the UN has a key role to play, not just through the UN environment programme, but also through the UN Development Programme because the key point about the WSSD summit was that it brought together environment, development and other issues in a concrete way for the first time.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, we want to see a stable, prosperous and democratic Zimbabwe. There is a strong international consensus behind that. We shall continue to press for regional efforts to restore good governance and the rule of law to Zimbabwe. Our condemnation of the Mugabe regime's policies will remain unequivocal but we shall continue to help those Zimbabweans suffering as a result of economic mismanagement and contempt for the rule of law.

My Lords, am I right in believing that member countries of NePAD and the new African Union claim that good governance, human rights and the rule of law in African countries are matters for African countries alone but appear to be taking no steps to deal with one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes of the world, that in Zimbabwe? If that situation continues, is there not a danger that NePAD and the African Union will lose all credibility? Will Her Majesty's Government propose to the G8 countries that they suspend aid to African countries until they have taken steps to deal with the restoration of human rights and the rule of law in Zimbabwe?

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Central to the principles within NePAD, and within the African Union, are principles associated with human rights and good governance. They are core principles for the NePAD initiatives and for the African Union. I do not think that either organisation stresses that these are for African countries alone. What is important is for there to be a stress within the African Union and within NePAD for African leadership and a key African role in sorting out governance problems on the continent.

We are extremely concerned, as the noble Lord knows, about the situation in Zimbabwe. The noble Lord is quite right. There is a significant humanitarian crisis. As many as 7 million people—more than half the population—will need food aid by the end of the year. So it is important that we continue to work with our African partners and ensure that they understand the magnitude of this crisis.

At the recent SADC meeting Mugabe was scheduled to become the vice-chairman. That did not happen. I was pleased that the President of Tanzania was elected instead.

My Lords, on 22nd July the Minister admitted in this House that only £76,000 worth of assets of Mr Mugabe and his colleagues had been frozen by that stage. Can the Minister tell us whether there has been any progress on that paltry sum? Given the ineffectiveness of that sum as any kind of deterrent to Mr Mugabe, can the Minister say how she and Her Majesty's Government react to the call of the leader of the movement for freedom in Zimbabwe that the moment has now come for United Nations' intervention to be actively considered?

My Lords, there has been a slight increase in that sum. It now rests at some £120,000. As to the issue about the asset freeze, we are doing all we can to identify where those assets are. Noble Lords will know that if individuals and institutions want to move money around and to hide that money it is very difficult to find it. But we shall continue to put pressure where we can.

I think that the noble Lord must have been talking about the Movement for Democratic Change led by Morgan Tsvangirai. It is important for us to recognise and remember that the UN is already involved. The UN is trying to cope, through the World Food Programme, with the significant humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe.

The United Nations Development Programmes (UNDPs) has been involved in the land reform process. It ruled earlier this year that that process was unsustainable.

Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General, has made some very strong comments already about the situation in Zimbabwe. We shall continue to engage with the UN on these matters.

My Lords, following the Minister's first Answer to my noble friend Lord Astor on the first Question, and in the light of the Prime Minister's comments last year that he would make Africa a major personal priority and a priority for the Labour Party, can the Minister tell us why he did not raise the issue of Zimbabwe in Johannesburg?

My Lords, I presume the noble Baroness refers to my right honourable friend's statement to the World Summit on Sustainable Development. In Johannesburg my right honourable friend had a number of meetings in the margins of the summit meeting at which he discussed a range of issues affecting Africa.

We attended the World Summit on Sustainable Development because we had important things to say about sustainable development and about development and environmental issues.. This was a major UN conference which brought together what had been discussed in Doha, Monterrey and Kananaskis. For us to focus on one country when we had significant things to say about the sustainable development agenda would have reflected very poorly on this country.

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister advise the House how we can expect to solve the economic crisis facing Zimbabwe when the very person who is causing it is still in power?

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Zimbabwe is not a colony of the United Kingdom. It is a sovereign territory. What the Mugabe regime is doing is ruining a country, ruining an economy and paying absolutely no heed to what is happening to its own people. We and the United States are having to put money in and feed people when their government are paying no regard to them. So it is absolutely critical that the Mugabe regime wakes up and recognises what it is doing to its own country and that those countries around Zimbabwe, which are suffering from that economic mismanagement, also play a role.

My Lords, can the Minister say what the Government are doing about Mugabe's successful use of the old colonial bogey? It is receiving a certain amount of support in neighbouring African countries. Are we putting the facts firmly before these countries or are we leaving it for them to assume that Mugabe is right?

My Lords, we put the facts before those countries at every conceivable opportunity. I talk about Zimbabwe with my opposite numbers in African countries just about every time I meet them—be that here in the United Kingdom or when I visit their countries. I was recently in New York to attend the United Nations General Assembly and had several meetings with African Foreign Ministers. I have been on talk radio in South Africa discussing the Government's policy on land reform. We leave no stone unturned. However, it is important that we remember that there is a colonial legacy, and a great deal of emotion and resentment connected with it, that is difficult for us to overcome.

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Mugabe regime is preventing the distribution of food aid in areas populated by those who do not support him politically? Is that method of using starvation for political ends something best dealt with by the United Nations, in view of what the Minister said about colonialism? What steps are we taking toward such intervention?

My Lords, there are two types of food relief in Zimbabwe. The first is purchased and distributed through ZANU-PF; we and the international community have no control over that. There are credible reports that it is being used as a political weapon. In the recent district council elections, it was reported that people who voted for ZANU-PF were given food.

There is also the international relief effort, to which we have contributed £32 million, which is separate from that. It is supplied directly to the needy on the ground by UN agencies such as the World Food Programme or non-governmental organisations. It does not go through ZANU-PF or state structures. We investigate any allegation that our aid is being diverted. James Morris, head of the World Food Programme, said in July that the UN would be out of the country in a second if it encountered difficulties in delivering food to starving people.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, regulations are already in place to ensure that all non-natural deaths of Armed Forces personnel in the United Kingdom are independently investigated. As with the wider civilian population, primacy for such investigations lies with the local civilian police force. Cause of death can be concluded only by Her Majesty's Coroner, or in Scotland by the Procurator Fiscal.

Where death occurs overseas, the military authorities act in accordance with local legal requirements. Should the body be repatriated to the United Kingdom, it would become subject to the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Coroner or the Procurator Fiscal.

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her response but, notwithstanding what she said, is she aware that recent events have seriously jeopardised the reputation of the Army for scrutinising unusual and unexpected deaths? Regarding recent cases, the police have said that in no case were investigations carried out comprehensively or properly. They added that they should not have accepted what the Army told them.

Is my noble friend further aware that the bereaved families are angry and resentful at what they see as cover-ups? The best way to resolve such cases is, rather than the rigmarole that she described, to have a proper, independent inquiry. We need someone above board who cannot be challenged, who is with neither the Army nor the police and who can carry out a proper, independent investigation in all cases.

My Lords, perhaps I may begin by expressing my sincere condolences and those of the whole House to the families of all those who have lost loved ones. It must be a difficult time for all of them. I shall be as helpful as possible to my noble friend in answering his supplementary question, but I must say at the outset that I am unable to comment on specific circumstances surrounding any of the deaths at Deepcut while the Surrey police investigations remain ongoing.

Of course, the Army continues to co-operate fully with the police in the course of their inquiries. It has for some time been laid down in Queen's Regulations that primacy in all non-natural deaths in such circumstances lies with the civilian police force. That has been and continues to be the case. The Surrey police took the decision to reopen the case of Private Gray on 30th April following an internal review of their initial investigation. The investigation into the death of Private Collinson was still on-going at that time. The Surrey police took the decision to investigate the deaths of Privates Benton and James following discussion with their families and a subsequent paper review of both cases.

I dispute my noble friend's allegation that there has been any kind of cover-up. The Army are working fully with the police in this matter and will continue to do so.

My Lords, I said that it was the families, not me, who said it was a cover-up.

My Lords, I appreciate that the family are concerned and I understand that they have called for a public inquiry. I must tell the House that the Government do not believe that a public inquiry would be appropriate while the investigation by the local police force continues. I am sure that my noble friend knows, but the House may want to know, that the House of Commons Defence Select Committee will be holding an inquiry. In 1998, the Government introduced a system whereby boards of inquiry by the Army are held and one will be held in this case.

My Lords, will the Ministry of Defence undertake a review of its policy on bullying, because there is a large spate of suicides? Something is going seriously wrong. If bullying is not the cause of those suicides, should not the Ministry of Defence also undertake a review of what emotional support it gives to recruits, because the culture shock of basic training is clearly a considerable cause of stress?

My Lords, bullying and harassment of any kind will not be tolerated in the Army or any of the forces. Any such allegations are always thoroughly investigated and immediate disciplinary action taken against those involved if they are proven. On the wider issue raised by the noble Lord, new improved training initiatives have been taken since 1998. They ensure that instructors who look after young people at a vulnerable time of their lives are given improved training in how to support them, know about equal opportunities and understand the vulnerable nature of recruits.

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest. Does the Minister agree that the current Surrey police inquiry is the correct approach and will reveal whether further inquiries are required?

My Lords, I do believe that.

My Lords, is it not the case that police inquiries into such matters—I have some experience of them—begin only when the facts are reported to them by the military authorities? Is the Minister satisfied that, in the cases that have attracted public attention recently, the military authorities were sufficiently expeditious in reporting the matters to the police?

My Lords, I have every confidence that, in those cases, the military authorities followed the procedure. I cannot go into specific circumstances because of the ongoing investigation.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary met President Khatami, the Foreign Minister Dr Kharrazi and Mr Hassan Rouhani, the secretary of the Iranian Supreme National Security Council. Discussion focused on regional issues, including the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, which have, in the past, been used against Iran.

My Lords, I hope that the Foreign Secretary managed to get a word in edgeways, given the tirade to which, according to various reports of the meeting, he was subjected. Did he raise the possibility, which has been mooted, of a British-Iranian human rights dialogue? Such a dialogue would encompass all the concerns that we have, from time to time, expressed, including, in particular, the crackdown on the free media and the detention and torture of dissidents, such as Manouchehr Mohammadi, the student leader, who was taken into custody and severely mistreated, following the disturbances at the university in 1999.

Did the Foreign Secretary also take up with his counterparts the essential condition that the Iranians should admit the instruments of the Commission on Human Rights, so that they could investigate violations of human rights and report back to the international community? There is a particular need for that to be done at the moment, considering that the human rights commission has discontinued the work of the special rapporteur on Iran.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will be aware that we raise human rights issues in all our engagements with Iran. There are proposals for an EU-Iran human rights dialogue, and it is likely that that will go ahead. There had been concerns that pre-conditions would be asked for, but no pre-conditions would be made on either side. For example, it would not be ruled out that a resolution might be put before the UN General Assembly.

The Commission on Human Rights is separate from the UN General Assembly. The noble Lord will know that the resolution on Iran was narrowly lost, which is why the rapporteur on Iran was lost. We will have to return to that matter at the next meeting of the commission. Even if a resolution is proposed and passed at the General Assembly, that is not linked with having a rapporteur going into the country.

My Lords, we welcome the appointment of the new British ambassador to Iran. Iran could be an important ally in the coalition against Saddam's terror and his programme for weapons of mass destruction. At this sensitive time, could the Minister tell the House when the new ambassador will take up his position?

My Lords, he accompanied my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary on his recent visit. He will take up his appointment early next year.

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the British Committee on Iran Freedom. Can the Minister say more about the attitude of the United Kingdom Government to the tabling of a resolution at the United Nations condemning the mullahs' regime in Tehran for the brutal acts and the human rights abuses committed against the population? Five young men were hanged in public from the end of cranes the day before a delegation from the European Union arrived in Tehran.

Will the Minister assure the House that, in yesterday's discussions, there was no question of the United Kingdom's biting its lip over those human rights abuses, in exchange for any form of support from that regime for possible action in Iraq?

My Lords, I made it clear that, in our discussions with the Iranians, we raised the issue of human rights. We recognise that there has been a recent deterioration in the human rights situation in Iran. As we know, that is partly the result of the political stand-off involving the reformers and their conservative opponents.

We will continue our policy of constructive dialogue with Iran. There have been areas in which Iran has been helpful, but that does not mean that we do not put across tough messages—not just about human rights, but about the Middle East peace process—when we need to do it.

My Lords, has the Minister seen the information that was published by the Iranian authorities showing that 292 people have already been executed this year in Iran? That is twice as many as the figure for the same period last year. The Minister is right to recognise that there has been a deterioration in the human rights record of that regime. We must keep such things at the heart of our dealings with Iraq.

Will the Minister also tell us why we have come to a different conclusion about the way in which we should deal with the regime from that reached by the American State Department?

My Lords, we have a different analysis of the way to encourage change for the better in Iran. Our view on that differs from that of the Americans. We are not reluctant to say that. As noble Lords know, we share many of the United States' concerns about Iran's support for terrorist groups and the reports of its development of weapons of mass destruction.

We will continue to raise those issues. I do not know how I can say that in any other way to the House. Human rights abuses and the support that the Iranian regime gives to certain organisations are the substance of robust discussions between this country and Iran.

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

My Lords, the Minister must be aware of conflicting reports about Iran's policy towards Afghanistan, both towards Al'Qaeda fugitives and towards the western areas in Afghanistan around Herat. Can the Government enlighten us as to what Iranian policy is?

My Lords, it is not for me to enlighten the House as to what Iranian policy is. I am aware that there have been conflicting reports, but we have had good co-operation with Iran on several regional issues, including the transitional government in Afghanistan. That is one of the areas where we have been working with the Iranians over a period of several months.

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Sainsbury of Turville on the Order Paper.

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The effect of the Motion is that, when we have dealt tonight with Amendment No. 78, which is the last amendment to Part 7, we will stop. The Bill will be reprinted tomorrow. The new government amendments to Parts 3, 5 and 8 will be retabled, and amendments in response to them will, no doubt, be tabled. Next Thursday, 17th October, we will go back into Committee on Parts 3, 5 and 8. The Bill will be reprinted again the following day, and further amendments may be tabled to Parts 3, 5 and 8.

The usual channels have agreed that Report stage for Parts 3, 5 and 8 will take place on Thursday 24th October. If there are procedural questions about these arrangements I suggest that they should be directed to the Clerks. I beg to move.

Moved, That, when consideration on Report of Parts 1,2,4,6 and 7 of the Bill has been completed, the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of Parts 3, 5 and 8.—(Lord Filkin.)

My Lords, I must ask the Minister whether that is correct. Should not questions of procedure be addressed to the Front Benches, as opposed to the Clerks?

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl is, as so often, technically correct. I sought to ensure that we had the quickest way of getting an accurate and detailed answer.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for moving the Motion. It shows that the Government listened to the concerns that were expressed in all parts of the House on Monday. I am glad that the Government have decided to do the right thing.

I shall not go into detailed questions—I am invited to direct them elsewhere—but I would like clarification from the Minister on one matter. He referred to the new government amendments being retabled. Before my arrival in the Chamber about 10 minutes ago, I went via the Printed Paper Office and discovered that it has no knowledge of the tabling in the first instance of the new government clauses. Will the Minister assist us as to when they will appear?

My Lords, my understanding is that all of the substantial government amendments were tabled yesterday. I will double check that. What I was reading out in terms of my speaking note was the process for retabling them because they have gone through a different process of being recommitted. I am advised that they are in the Marshalled List.

My Lords, could the practice of turning questions from Ministers to the Clerks in order to obtain accurate answers be more widely practised?

My Lords, I think that is excellent advice.

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

moved Amendment No. 28:

My Lords, I rise to support these amendments. One question arises out of them, and I may not be in order asking it, but it is so relevant that I dare to put it to the Minister. It seems to me that, bearing in mind the legal problems that are likely to arise, and which will be part of the decisions of the members of the advisory groups, the chairman of each advisory group should be an experienced lawyer. If the Government have that in mind, at the Third Reading an amendment should be tabled in order to ensure it.

My Lords, these amendments have our support on this side of the House. We certainly support the duties placed on members of the advisory groups. The second amendment gives the Secretary of State power to make provisions for the training of members of advisory groups and the third amendment would mean that a requirement to undergo training could be a condition for the person being appointed.

These amendments are in line with similar provisions which have been made for members of various groups working in such situations. I refer here to lay members of the prison boards of visitors and lay members who inspect detention centres. The need for training is a crucial element. It is crucial in this instance because the advisory group members will be looking at whether the rights of individuals are protected. It is important that people are not simply appointed to pay a visit and make a report. They should learn about what are the rights and what is being done to protect them, and what the government and the monitor are doing about them. If they have any doubts whatever, they should bring them to the attention of the appropriate authorities.

The amendment imposes duties on members of the advisory groups, but these are duties they must carry out to fulfil their function. If the Minister contends that they will be lay persons not lawyers, the response is that the lay people are capable of understanding the law. The visitors groups for detention centres have proved it. If the advisory groups do not have a grasp of the legal rights of those in the centres, they are unlikely to be able to know what to look for when they visit a centre and are unlikely to be able to make useful reports. This is not only for the protection of those who are in such centres, it is as much for the protection of those who provide a service and for ensuring that accommodation centres are run with no-one's basic rights being impinged upon.

My Lords, is there anything in the amendment which could not be included in regulations? A great deal of common sense has been uttered from both Opposition Benches but I do not think anything is precluded in practice as regards what has been suggested. In other words, does it have to be in primary legislation?

My Lords, I should probably have traced the answer through the Bill, but I have not been able to do so in the time available, so can the noble Lord tell us whether these regulations will come to the House by a negative resolution or an affirmative one? This clause was introduced at the Committee stage in this House. It has not therefore been examined by the committee which looks at the powers given in secondary legislation on behalf the House. The questions that are being asked indicate that these regulations will be important and fundamental to the safety of people in the accommodation centres. It would be comforting to know that the regulations will come by affirmative resolution.

My Lords, some interesting and important points have been made on these amendments. I will start by making a few general remarks about how we see the role of advisory groups and therefore to what extent we feel they can address the issues raised. I will then speak about other ways in which we believe those issues will be properly addressed in the overall process of control and monitoring.

It is useful to look at what Sir Peter Lloyd, who chaired the review of prison boards of visitors, has said. Clearly accommodation centres are not prisons, but the principles of the prison boards of visitors in terms of having people going in there and trying to be ears and eyes, looking from the perspective of people who are in those places, is the foundation principle.

The report said that the boards of visitors should be concerned with,

"simply what all that is actually meaning to individual prisoners in their experience of prison and their preparation for release".

He went on to say that they should not aspire to be inspectors, auditors, consultants or non-executive directors.

The advisory groups will be listening to the concerns and complaints of individual residents and, more broadly, looking at the effects of the operation of the centres on residents as a whole. It is precisely the commonsense lay perspective that we need to provide reassurance as to the treatment of centre residents.

The advisory groups should be looking at the way the centres operate and the effects on individuals within them, and hearing what those individuals say about it, which may or may not be the totality of the truth. They are not there necessarily to make a firm and final judgment, but to convey feelings and concerns.

We want to recruit a wide variety of people as advisory group members. Placing a duty on them simply to focus on legal skills—although that clearly would not be ruled out—would be turning them away from the kind of role that we consider appropriate. It would require a considerable level of expertise in the law for them to be able to do the job of identifying whether, for example, the Legal Services Commission was effectively discharging its functions within an accommodation centre by the provision of legal aid.

However, quite clearly the advisory groups could and should relay concerns if they pick up from residents of accommodation centres that they feel they are not getting adequate legal advice; that they are not getting access to lawyers when they want them; that they are not getting the help and helpfulness they expect from an advocate on important issues. That kind of issue would be four-square within the remit of the advisory groups, which again is consistent with the perspective I have sought to give overall.

Similarly with child protection policies—I shall turn later to the other ways in which we shall seek to ensure the effectiveness of the child protection policies—the advisory groups would be commonsense eyes and ears. They would not quite befriend but would be available to people living in accommodation centres so that any concerns could be relayed to them.

The amendment in regard to the monitor is divided into two parts. I recognise that there are other points to which I must return, but the first part of the amendment would require the monitor to report on the effectiveness of the checks carried out on staff employed at the centres by the Criminal Records Bureau. I understand that the intention behind the amendment is to see whether the employers' checks are effective in precluding unsuitable people from working in accommodation centres. As the House knows, part of the problem with the checks is that if they are carried out well they should be able to pick up people who have records; but we know only too well that they cannot pick up the records of people who have not committed or been convicted of offences. Therefore none of us can feel that the checks are a complete answer.

However, the contractual requirements of the people running the accommodation centres will be such that the Home Office will approve every appointment to the accommodation centres if it is satisfied that the necessary checks have been carried out. The Home Office itself will have a fairly strong control process in that respect.

I can respond much more positively to the second part of the amendment, which requires the monitor to report on the effectiveness of the child protection policy operated by the centres. We intend the contract to specify that each centre must have a child protection policy in line with the local area child protection committee's policy. Although Home Office staff will monitor the actual operation of the contract, I agree that assessing the overall appropriateness and suitability of the child protection policy is something that could usefully be done by the monitor.

However, as my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said, I do not believe that this needs to be specified in the Bill. Clause 32(2)(c) already requires the monitor to consider the treatment of residents and, in subsection (3), to consult such other persons as he considers appropriate. In this way the monitor can consider the child protection policy in the context of the way residents are treated. He or she would no doubt wish to consider consulting the local authority and local area child protection committee to consider the nature of the accommodation centre's child protection policy in the light, for example, of the guidelines produced. We shall of course make the monitor's terms of reference available in due course.

For the reasons I gave earlier, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, will understand that while not for a second should a legally qualified chairman be ruled out, the function is not essentially a legal one. However, clearly a lawyer could be so appointed.

As to the levels of checks, I indicated that we would seek to ensure that the highest levels of checks that could be carried out on the relevant levels of staff would be. In short, that means an enhanced disclosure for those regularly engaged in caring, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children; a standard disclosure for those whose duties involve working with children at a lesser level—for example, administrative staff and staff working in the education facility—but who would have contact with children; and a basic disclosure for other staff—for example, cleaners, maintenance workers and administrative staff.

Under Clause 36(4), the regulations in regard to the advisory group will be subject to the negative procedure. I hope that I have now covered all the points raised.

My Lords, with the leave of the House, and before the Minister sits down, I would suggest to him that the negative procedure is not adequate in this case. The discussion has been partly about membership and the chairman of the group. We do not know from the Bill anything about what the membership of the group will be under the regulations. Will the Minister look at the issue to see whether it should be decided by the affirmative resolution?

My Lords, perhaps the most straightforward answer is yes, we will look at the issue—but I would not want to raise hopes. We will want to assess whether or not it is appropriate. I shall do so and I shall write to the noble Baroness on that point.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that helpful response. It has fleshed out more clearly what the roles of the advisory groups and the monitor will be. I may wish to return at some stage with questions in regard to the levels of checks that are to be carried out on the various grades of staff in the accommodation centres. I still have some concerns in that respect. I am grateful to the Minister for his indication that the second part of my Amendment No. 32 will be met and that the monitor will report on the effectiveness of the child protection policy operated by the accommodation centres. That is very good news. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 31:

My Lords, I support the amendment. All the amendments that we are presently considering are in the interests of greater accountability and of involving as wide a section of the community as possible in observing and "critiquing" the life and work of accommodation centres. I am glad to offer my support.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for moving the amendment. It is helpful in the context of what we are attempting to achieve in the Bill. As he suggested, it would require the monitor of accommodation centres to consider in particular matters raised in reports by accommodation centre advisory groups. That in itself seems a sensible thing. It is what we should expect to happen.

The monitor is required to monitor the operation of Part 2 of the Bill. We have set out on the face of the Bill three aspects that he will need to consider in particular; namely, the quality and effectiveness of accommodation and other facilities provided, the nature and enforcement of conditions of residence and the treatment of residents. In considering these aspects, the monitor will be required to consult the Secretary of State and such other persons as he considers appropriate. We expect that requirement to be fairly widely drawn.

In addressing the amendment, we need to consider what matters might be incorporated in reports made by the advisory groups. We want the advisory groups to visit the centres and listen to the complaints of residents, and to ensure that those complaints are properly addressed. We feel that the advisory groups' reports will, by their very nature, focus on the ways in which individuals feel they are being treated within the centres, on whether any concerns have been acted upon, and on whether residents feel able to express any concerns or know how to do so. They will help us to understand how the residents are affected by the conditions of their residence and whether they feel that the facilities available meet their needs and are open to them. I imagine that they will in particular express views about how usefully their time is occupied and any concerns that they might have about the quality of their accommodation.

So given that the monitor will be looking at these issues as part of his remit, I think it would be impossible for him to ignore the matters that will undoubtedly be raised in any reports from the advisory groups. For that reason, I do not see that the amendment would add to what is already envisaged.

I also emphasise that the monitor will consult such other persons as he considers appropriate. As I said, we should expect that remit to be fairly widely drawn.

It may well be that the point made by the noble Earl in his amendment could be better and more accurately reflected in the terms of reference or the "job description" of the monitor. That would be where it would be better placed, rather than on the face of the Bill. If the noble Earl would see that as a welcome step, we should actively consider it. We believe these matters to be very important.

In overall terms, we will pay close attention to reports made by both the monitor and the advisory groups. We believe that the existence of these groups will be invaluable and that it will play an important part in establishing an independent view of how the accommodation centres are working. They will, of course, help to form part of the overall evaluation of the trial and during its course enable us to pick up on the areas that are working well. They will help us to learn from the successes and enable us to tackle those areas where the centres are not as effective. I hope that with those assurances, which are genuine ones, the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister warmly for that reply. He makes a serious case for arguing that the objective of the amendment can be achieved without placing it on the face of the Bill. I am also aware of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has often made about the danger of cluttering up the face of the Bill with too much detail. Those are serious points. As I think that the Minister is right, and as I am certain that he makes the offers in good faith, I shall beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I hope that we are both right.

moved Amendment No. 33:

After Clause 32, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, I hope that the Government will accept this amendment. The accommodation centres will be of great public importance. They will cost a great deal of public money. That is one factor to be borne in mind. Another factor is that they will have an effect on asylum seekers and enable the Government to decide whether they are genuine. They will provide a chance for the merits of asylum seekers to be considered one way or the other. If there is no report to Parliament by the Secretary of State, the whole system will have failed to fulfil its public importance.

My Lords, very much for the reasons referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, I am slightly puzzled by the drafting of this amendment. No one is suggesting that the regular reports, which are a very interesting idea, should not make reference to the impact on the local community and services. I am sure that that would be an important ingredient. However, I am mystified that there is no reference in the amendment to the impact on the residents of the centres, the role that the centres play in helping in a humane way to achieve their purpose and the theory behind their existence, or the fulfilment of government policy as a whole. I suggest that those who moved the amendment take it away and think about that. It would be unfortunate if this House went on record as saying that it was interested only in the impact of the centres on the local community.

My Lords, I support the amendment. This morning, I indulged myself in the pleasant occupation, which is probably much followed and well known to Members of your Lordships' House, of looking through yesterday's Hansard to read one's own contributions. When I got to mine, which is at col. 294, I found to my horror that throughout my short intervention I spoke about attendance centres rather than accommodation centres. I wish to correct my mistake and to assure the House that I was well aware that the debate was about accommodation centres and not attendance centres.

I add this one thought: the fact that I made the same mistake five times in a speech of less than one column's length leads me sadly to the conclusion—and I am sure that it is the right one—that since nobody intervened to correct me, nobody thought that anything I said was worth listening to at all.

My Lords, this amendment has our support also. I assure my noble friend Lord Carlisle, with whom I have worked in other capacities, that when he referred to attendance centres we had no doubt whatsoever that he meant accommodation centres. We listen very carefully to what the noble Lord says.

The argument of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, was interesting. However, having looked at Clause 32, it is clear that information on the impact on residents and local services is provided by the advisory groups and the monitor himself. The monitor is expected to report to the Secretary of State, and that information will be laid before Parliament. One has no difficulty with that, because when any such report comes before Parliament, I am sure that I, the noble Lord, and others, will jump to make sure that right and proper services are provided at the accommodation centre.

Interestingly, I see no evidence in that part of the Bill about the obligation of the Secretary of State in relation to the interesting and lengthy debate that we had yesterday about accommodation centres. All Members from all sides of the House expressed serious concern not only about the size and location of centres, but about services and other related elements. It is right and proper that the Secretary of State should be accountable, reporting to Parliament on precisely what is happening and on the impact of the centres. On that basis we will be that much wiser. Reports will be published at some stage to detail the precise effect of the pilot schemes.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is he really suggesting that among busy Ministers and senior administrators a sound evaluation of what is happening will really be helped by a confusion of different reports from different quarters? Surely, the job is to look at the centres to judge their effectiveness and their consequences for both the local community and the inmates.

My Lords, I have no difficulty with what the noble Lord says. Ultimately, we will probably receive a filtered version of what finally emerges. A total picture will be given, but the obligation on the Secretary of State to produce such an impact statement or report is very important, bearing in mind the interest shown by your Lordships' House in the discussion on accommodation centres yesterday. We support the amendment.

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this amendment. I have much sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has just said. Perhaps the amendment, if passed and recognised, could be extended.

During yesterday's debate the Minister stressed the need to make provision for the future in accommodation centres. Although there is no question of not trusting the Secretary of State, if I, in the diocese of Portsmouth, were running a new initiative, I would expect to be accountable to my diocesan synod. This amendment is highly correct and appropriate, and I hope that it has the support of the House.

My Lords, I do not understand why the second part of the amendment cannot be covered by Questions, oral or written. We do not want to be suffused by a whole plethora of reports. Not for the first time, I agree with my noble friend Lord Judd. Although we should, of course, see what the Government have to say on the matter, I do not think that the amendment is right, particularly subsection (2).

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I hope that I am in order to say that surely if there is to be a report to Parliament, it must be on the effect on asylum seekers of living in accommodation centres and on the effect on local people. Surely Parliament should not be deprived of either conclusion.

My Lords, perhaps I may—

My Lords, I have been asked a question, so I hope that I will be allowed to answer it. If anybody has any reservation about this point, they will let Members of Parliament and noble Lords know. I do not depart from my point about the plethora of information that would come before noble Lords and others which I do not think would be helpful.

My Lords, most amendments, like most Bills, are capable of amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has suggested some minor improvement to the amendment. Nevertheless, the kind of reports called for by the amendment should prove to be a useful tool for post-legislative parliamentary scrutiny, for which so many people have called for so long.

If the accommodation centres come into being, we want to know how effective they are and their impact on the places where they are situated.

My Lords, there will be a great need from the start for careful public relations on accommodation centres. The people in the neighbourhood will want to know whether it is succeeding in what it is supposed to be doing. If there are good public relations they will be keen to play a part in helping people through their time in the accommodation and probably after in some cases. Such a report, which can be made available in the local community, will be an opportunity for that. To that extent it is a very good idea. I do not know whether my noble friend minds too much about the wording of her amendment. I have not asked her. Her idea leads one to think that the Secretary of State should think about how he will conduct local public relations—he is the one to do it—to make sure that local people understand what is going on. If there is a problem with medicine or the availability of doctors, for example, they will want to know how it is being handled to keep everyone in the area happy.

My Lords, there is a subtlety here that we have all missed. Yesterday the noble Baroness told us that the Secretary of State should be satisfied that the proposed location is suitable to the needs of the people in the accommodation. That was yesterday. Today he has to be sure to worry about people affected by the location. He will get it wrong either way.

My Lords, I am utterly four-square on the importance of the Government being available to give an account to Parliament about the operation of the centres. Before I go into the detail, we heard every word that the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, said yesterday. We had heard "attendance centres", but we knew exactly what he meant. Perhaps, like me, he finds that Hansard is not very good at capturing what I meant to say, as opposed to what I did say, which is always a difficulty.

On the specifics, perhaps it might help if I say something about how we envisage the evaluation of the trial accommodation centres being undertaken. The White Paper in February set out a series of evaluation criteria against which we would test them. It would be impossible to do this without looking at the associated issues that may contribute to the effect on the locality, either positive or negative—or, given how life is, most likely both positive and negative—and the effect on community relations. It is likely to include matters such as local residents' perceptions of asylum seekers and the impact of their use of local services. There will undeniably be an impact. We hope that it need not be overall a negative one. In fact, we are quite optimistic. We certainly do not expect them to place a burden on local services, given the points that we have emphasised in the Bill about them being designed explicitly in part to avoid that. We shall also evaluate the effect on those areas and compare it, as far as we are able through research methodology, with the alternative of dispersal to make a judgment in the round. We envisage that the evaluation will include a combination of management information and consultation with people and more formal research carried out by independent researchers under contract to the Home Office. The Home Secretary is on record as saying that long-term decisions about the mix of facilities will depend on the evidence of what works.

The results of the accommodation centres evaluation will be publicly available and will clearly be made available to Parliament. I shall go further than that. We are happy to provide interim results after the first centre has been in operation for a full year. As a number of speakers have said, over and above that commitment there are many ways in which this House or another place can probe Ministers on the issue, through Starred or Unstarred Questions. We have no trouble with that. Quite the reverse—we would welcome being open about the objective evaluation and scrutiny of the centres. We are committed to putting information about them into the public domain.

I respect the spirit of the amendment, but the problem is that it would require us to make an annual report on the impact of each accommodation centre every year, by definition. While one can understand the eagerness to have early information—I hope that what I have said will help—after a while that would become an enormously burdensome process. We do not require prisons, mental hospitals or immigration detention centres to make similar annual reports.

The monitor will also be able to monitor the operation of Part 2. Clause 32(9) provides that:

"A person who is employed within a government department may not be appointed as Monitor".

The monitor's report will also be laid before Parliament. We expect that monitoring of the operation of Part 2, which the monitor is obliged to do, will include the relationship between the centre and the local community. The monitor is obliged to consult such persons as he or she considers appropriate. We anticipate that that may include police and local authorities, for example, but it could also include local residents or representatives if the monitor judged that that was appropriate.

I have not responded explicitly to every point, but I hope that I have captured the broad thrust of the points made. We welcome an evaluation. We think we can meet the thrust of what the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has said in the ways that I have set out.

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that extremely helpful reply. He has met the concerns that led me to table the amendment. I thank those who have participated in this short debate. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth that I was simply trying to plug a gap. My understanding before I tabled the amendment was that the concerns that they expressed about the conditions experienced by the residents would be met by other reports. It never occurred to me that they would not. That is why I welcomed the Government's amendments in Committee to Clauses 31 and 32. They provide a welcome monitoring of the conditions to be experienced by asylum seekers in accommodation centres.

I do not know whether I should remind the Minister of painful events for him yesterday, but I shall bludgeon on. The purpose of my Amendment No. 12 yesterday, which the House carried, was to concentrate on the needs of those who live in accommodation centres. Their needs are very much in my mindset.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Desai, for thinking that I might be subtle—well, one day, perhaps. I was just trying to be logical and plug that gap. The Minister has provided me with the ideal opportunity to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 36:

After Clause 35, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, I have one question for the noble Lord about the amendment. Due to my own incompetence, I was not in the Chamber when this group of amendments was discussed. Does subsection (3)(a) of the amendment mean that the whole amendment applies to Scotland? I think it does, but I may be wrong. If it does, have the Government considered whether local authorities will be able to provide services across the border? I am sorry not to have warned the noble Lord that I was going to ask this, but it is quite important. The amendment and others in the group suggest that local authorities should be able to provide services widely over many areas and can co-operate. Could that be done across the border? It might be quite confusing, because local government is a devolved matter in Scotland.

My Lords, if we have not covered all the points we will write.

moved Amendment No. 37:

My Lords, why has the right reverend Prelate chosen to introduce the words,

"over the age of eighteen"?

He has not addressed that issue so far.

Because, my Lords, many of those whom I met yesterday, for example, were over 18. In my view, they need this safeguard.

That story demonstrates that the well-being and development of the child should be our overriding consideration. In other words, if it is thought that living in certain institutional settings may damage children, then they should not be placed in those settings. This is the policy that the Home Office pursues in respect of the babies of women in prison. The Home Office considers that prison is not the best environment for young children, and babies are therefore taken from their mothers by the age of six months. However, the same government department that believes that prison is not the best environment for children, to the extent that it is preferable to separate them from their mothers, maintains that it is justifiable to place children in detention centres.

Yesterday, when we debated amendments on the education of children of asylum seekers, I mentioned the opposition of the leading children's charities. I should like to add today that, contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam—undoubtedly with the best of intentions—implied in this House on 17th July, the NSPCC is totally opposed to the detention of children. Yesterday, I also suggested that some would oppose the education of children of asylum seekers in the accommodation centres on grounds of principle or practicality or both. Noble Lords might be tempted to regard the amendments that are before us as being concerned only with principle and not practice. I beg noble Lords to consider that they are about both. Is it right to detain children in these centres and is it desirable to create another tier of services and welfare provision for children?

I conclude by saying that the measure of how we treat children seeking asylum should be whether or not this is the treatment that we would want for our own children. Would we want our own children to spend open-ended periods of time in detention centres? Do we think that detention centres provide an environment conducive to a child's development—an environment in which a child would be most happy? The answer to both those questions is surely no. If it is not good enough for our children, it is not good enough for any child. The Government should end the detention of children and their families as soon as is practically possible. I beg to move.

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment No. 38 which stands in my name and is grouped with the amendments just spoken to by the right reverend Prelate. It operates on a much lower but none the less important level than those that we have just heard addressed, albeit it is a drafting amendment. It need not take much time to consider. I speak to it in the interests of simplicity and, therefore, in the interests of the reader and the user of the Bill.

Clause 55 empowers detention of a person on the authority of the Secretary of State in two sets of circumstances, first, in subsection (1)(a), pending,

"a decision by the Secretary of State whether to give directions"

regarding that person's entry or removal, or, secondly, in subsection (1)(b), pending the removal of that person pursuant to such directions. In subsection (1)(b) the reader sees the words "under that paragraph". Back he goes, therefore, to subsection (1)(a) where he sees that there are three paragraphs there specified. So, do the words "that paragraph" in subsection (1)(b) relate to any one in particular? What do they relate to? It would be far simpler to say "the material paragraph". Actually, the phrase "any such paragraph" would have been better but I did not think of that in the somnolent days of summer. It would certainly be much simpler to say "under the material paragraph".

If one takes a tortuous and a painful audit trail through the syntax of the clause as drafted, one can perhaps conclude that the syntax is sound, but it is certainly not simple. Why cannot we be simple? I hope that the Minister will be able to accept this brief and simple amendment.

My Lords, returning to the previous amendment, I shall try not to repeat the strong arguments made by the right reverend Prelate as this is a fairly old chestnut. However, like many old chestnuts, it is durable and will return.

The Government recognise that it is wrong to detain children and that we should be talking only about the exceptional circumstances. However, I wish to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in Committee about separating the family,

"which is likely to cause the children needless distress".—[Official Report, 17/7/02; col. 1240.]

As the right reverend Prelate has already pointed out, how does the Minister square this with official Home Office policy that even very young children of prisoners—babies over six months old—should not be brought up in prison and must be separated from their mothers? The child has committed no offence and the environment of detention, the lack of facilities and education are incompatible with standards of living which we are normally prepared to guarantee.

I hope that the Minister can say again how the Bill is compatible not only with Article 37 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child on detention—which is clear—but also with Article 3(1). The best interests of children, as the Children Act intended, are to be considered separately from those of adults and the Government cannot hide behind the notion of separated families. The Joint Committee on Human Rights reminded the Government that the best interests of children are not just an important factor to be considered but are to be,

"treated as a primary consideration"

and therefore "highly important".

Children in detention have already suffered trauma in some form, as we heard yesterday. Now they have to suffer further disruption and disappointment that we, the UK authorities in whatever form, have let them down. Evidence from case studies—some have been quoted already by the right reverend Prelate—shows that detention has physical as well as psychological effects on children, including stress and sickness leading to loss of weight.

I have two case studies which describe those effects on children in detention but I shall not quote them now as I believe that we have heard enough individual case studies. However, both families suffered some rough handling and even violence at the time of detention. In one of the case studies a family with two children, both aged under seven, was detained when they received a final decision after six years in the UK. In the other case study a family was detained for 81 days before the mother and children aged seven, three and two were finally released. Their father is still being detained.

It is worth noting that in neither of those cases had any member of the family attempted to abscond or failed to comply with the conditions on which they were granted admission. In both cases the power of the authorities to use their "discretion" to detain children for indefinite periods under the same criteria as adults has led to prolonged periods of detention without independent review. We are not just talking of exceptional circumstances for a few days. We must be clear about that. In neither case had alternatives to detention, such as reporting restrictions, been considered.

Just last week concerns about the UK's policy on detention were expressed again by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child—the committee which oversees implementation of the convention. Reporting on the UK's progress in implementing the convention, the committee recommended that the UK,

"refrain as a matter of policy from detaining unaccompanied minors and ensure the right speedily to challenge the legality of the detention in compliance with article 37 of the Convention. In any case detention must always be a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time"

My Lords, I, too, support the amendments spoken to by the right reverend Prelate. I shall try to avoid rehearsing the arguments made in Committee.

To some of us it seems self-evident that if we treat children seeking asylum as children above all else, we should not detain them. Detention centres cannot afford any child the care and protection that he needs. They are never the best environment for children and may have serious negative effects on their physical and emotional health and well-being. That principle is clearly acknowledged by the Government in the official guidance given in the Children Act 1989 in relation to the making of secure accommodation orders for children. It states that:

"Restricting the liberty of children is a serious step which must be taken only when there is no genuine alternative which would be appropriate. It must be a 'last resort' in the sense that all else must first have been comprehensively considered and rejected".

The Minister has not made any case that I am aware of that the intention is that detaining families in detention centres should be used only as a last resort. What this demonstrates is that the Home Office is prepared to apply different standards to children seeking asylum than are applied to other children by other government departments. Such discrimination against a class of children who have committed no offence undermines the integrity of our legal system, which is based on justice for all.

Unlike the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, I propose to quote from a case study, which deals with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, who said that the other case study did not refer to young people. This case study illustrates the effect that detention can have on children. It was provided by the mother of two children, one aged six years and the other 18 months, who were detained for 111 days. After being released from detention, the mother said,

"they didn't learn anything, they had a play room. The older one was really upset, she was saying every day, 'I want to go to school, let me out of here'. She had problem with her mouth. They have seen her but they can't do nothing. And she was 30 kilos before detention centre, and when I got out from detention centre she was 21 kilos. Actually she was suffering so much from detention centre".

The family was finally released on adjudicator's bail and has since reported regularly, as required by the court. The elder daughter missed two terms of school and took six months to regain the weight she had lost in detention.

I question whether that is a humane way to treat anyone, adult or child, although our responsibilities towards children are greater. They have not chosen to come here; they are vulnerable and dependent. It is surely consistent with our belief in justice and humanity to ensure that the children of asylum seekers who are waiting for a decision are with their family and in an environment that will in no way harm them; on the contrary, it should help to meet their particular needs and foster their development. A detention centre is no such environment. It should not, therefore, be the home of any child, however temporarily, and no persuasive justification for such detention and such discrimination has been provided by the Government.

My Lords, when the right reverend Prelate moved the amendment, he discussed the expansion of the detention estate relating to children. I want to probe the Government in that regard. I believe that there are currently 150 family beds in the detention estate, which contains 2,000 places altogether. The Government propose to expand the total detention estate to 4,000. How many places will be for families in that enhanced total?

I am informed that there are currently five family rooms in Tinsley House with five beds each and 16 in Dungavel with three to four beds each; Harmondsworth makes up the balance of 150 beds for 30 to 40 families. I believe that that information was given in a Written Answer in another place on 17th July.

What is the purpose of increasing the estate so that we can detain more and more families with children? At the time of the White Paper, detention of families with children was to be done in wholly exceptional circumstances and for the shortest possible period, as the right reverend Prelate reminded us. Suddenly and with no explanation whatever, the policy changed in October 2001 so that families with children could be detained on almost any criteria whatever; that is what we are being asked to accept if the right reverend Prelate's amendment is not agreed to.

The operation enforcement manual allowed the detention of families for only a few days prior to removal. That was the situation until October 2001. Will the Minister explain—if he is able to do so—what changed in October 2001 to make it suddenly necessary to detain? I happen to know that there is no statistical evidence for that whatever in terms of families absconding. When noble Lords and honourable Members tried to obtain figures showing the objective justification for detention, Ministers were not able to answer.

The current situation was described in a letter of 27th September from Simon Barrett of the Detention Services Policy Unit. He confirmed to Bail for Immigration Detainees, to which we are indebted for much research work relating to the amendments, that:

"There are no separate criteria for the detention of families with children".

That is shocking, my Lords. We are proposing to detain children without regard to any of our obligations under, for example, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which has already been mentioned.

I draw the attention of noble Lords to another part of the concluding observations of the report on the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland that was recently published by the Committee on the Rights of the Child. It reiterated its belief that the UK's reservation about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in respect of immigration and nationality legislation,

"is against the object and purpose of the Convention".

In other words, it said that that is an illegal reservation. It drew particular attention to the need to end discrimination against children seeking asylum and to establish their best interests as the paramount consideration in cases involving them. Of asylum-seeking and refugee children, the committee said that it was concerned,

"that detention of these children is not compatible with the principles and provisions of the Convention".

Detention of children under immigration legislation powers must stop, full stop.

My Lords, it is right to spend time discussing the detention of children. As a general principle, we would all wish that it could be totally avoided in this circumstance—or in any other, for that matter.

As I listened to the moving story told by the right reverend Prelate—I invite my noble friend the Minister to respond to this—I assumed that the family in detention whom he mentioned had had their application for asylum refused, had been through all of the appeal processes and had been told that they had to leave the United Kingdom. I also assumed that a country had been found—presumably the country from where they came—that was willing to take them back. I assumed all of that. In those precise circumstances, a family has exhausted all of the appeals and is told, "Look, we are terribly sorry, but you must leave the United Kingdom by this or that date". Will my noble friend clarify whether the family can then say, "Okay, give us a week"—or a fortnight, a month or whatever—"and we will leave by whatever date"? If so, that disposes of the problem. Alternatively, in circumstances in which it is felt that the family will not voluntarily leave the United Kingdom—or, indeed, they may have said that they will not voluntarily do so and a decision is taken to put them into detention—are the parents in that case given the opportunity to say whether or not they would prefer the children to be taken into detention with them or to have the children separated from them and taken into care?

Many assumptions are being made in this context. As I listened to the contributions of a number of noble Lords, I thought, "What would I do if I were faced with exactly that circumstance?". As a father and grandfather, my strong feeling is that I would want my children with me. That is my view. I do not believe that I should take that decision for other families; that decision belongs to those families. Will the Minister be kind enough to clarify what happens in that situation and whether choice is available for parents who find themselves in that unhappy position?

My Lords, Amendments Nos. 37, 39 and 40 to Clause 55 would prevent the detention of certain persons under the age of 18 who were subject to further examination at a port of entry or who were deemed to be illegal entrants. They would also prevent such persons being granted temporary admission or release. The powers to do so in paragraphs 21 and 22 of Schedule 2 to the 1971 Act flow from the liability to be detained, which would be removed by these amendments. Thus, such people could not be detained, released or temporarily admitted, subject to reporting or residence requirements. They would be in limbo as a result.

Turning from the legalities to the substance of the amendments, our current policy on the detention of minors is clear. It is, of course, regrettable to have to detain those who are under the age of 18. But there are two limited circumstances where we may decide to do so and where, I suggest, it is entirely appropriate that powers should continue to be available to do so.

The first is where it is considered necessary in line with our policy to detain a family with children. In such cases, it is surely better for the children to be detained with their parents rather than to be separated from their families. In that case, to suggest that families should not be detained at all is simply unrealistic in the world in which we live. They may need to be detained while their identities or basis of claim are established because they are unlikely to comply with the terms of temporary admission or release. It may also be necessary in order to effect their removal or as part of the fast-track asylum process at Oakington reception centre. These amendments would either prevent that in all cases or would simply require the separation of parents and children. Neither is desirable.

Secondly, there are exceptional circumstances where it is necessary to detain an unaccompanied minor while alternative care arrangements are made. That would normally occur only overnight and with appropriate care facilities. Our view is that it would be vastly better, wherever possible, to place such children into the care of a responsible adult—a relative—or for social services to take charge of them, as is clearly what would normally happen, the following day. But sometimes people arrive in the middle of the night, and the Government do not accept that it is appropriate to turn them out on to the streets in such a situation.

Therefore, I am afraid that it is simply unrealistic to suggest that families with children should be exempt from detention. That would be a severe hindrance to effective immigration control and, in terms of the asylum process, would prevent families with children passing through the fast-track process at Oakington reception centre. More generally, effectively it would prevent the removal of families with children who have no lawful basis of stay here but who are not prepared to comply voluntarily with the removal directions. In terms of the minds of the traffickers, I invite the House to reflect upon the effect of that with regard to the potential attractiveness of the United Kingdom as a source for asylum claims.

I am not aware of any shift in policy between the 1999 and 2002 White Papers. We want families to spend as short a time as possible in detention centres and for as few families as possible to do so. However, we do see the necessity for the powers. A figure of 11 months was quoted as the average time. I should be pleased to see the basis for that figure. Our figures state that 64 per cent of all detainees should stay for less than two months. But I shall be happy to examine those figures in detail if they are provided.

In terms of the size of the detention estate, there are currently 161 beds. They are normally provided in four-bed family rooms, giving a nominal capacity of that order. The occupancy figures as at 9th October were that the total number of people detained in removal centres was 1,275—that is all people; the number of family members detained was 88, plus 121 in Oakington; and, out of those 88, the number of children was 36.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, raised a number of concerns. I shall be most happy to consider them if he will provide them to me. Detention is not prolonged unnecessarily—

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord is able to deal with my other questions. I am grateful to him for the figures that he has given, but I asked him what plans the Government have to expand the accommodation for families when total capacity in the detention estate is increased from its present 2,000 to 4,000.

My Lords, I had not forgotten the noble Lord's question; it was in the pile of notes that I was coming to, but I shall deal with it now. No firm decisions have been made as to the exact number of family beds that will be provided when we reach the stage of commissioning or putting out a specification for them. Clearly it will be supplied, and I should welcome a question nearer that time if the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, would like to raise it with me. Raising such a question on the back of the generality of the subject of the family detention estate would be perfectly appropriate.

In terms of the question, "why more?", I believe that the House knows the answer. There is a significant increase in the in-flows of asylum claimants to the country. If we are to increase the number of removals of those who have no valid grounds for staying, then it follows as a fact—if an unfortunate one—that there will be a need for an increase in the size of the detention estate.

We believe that the UK's reservation on the rights of the child is lawful and that it does not prevent us from taking into account very seriously the best interests of the child.

I do not pretend that I have answered every question, but I hope that I have cut to the heart of the issue. Essentially, in an ideal world it would be wonderful if one did not have to detain families in this way. In our view, it is better to keep families together rather than to separate the children. Clearly, in an ideal world it will be even better simply to identify rapidly people who have a genuine claim—

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, will he be kind enough to answer the point about the families I described who have to go into detention? Will they have a choice as to whether or not the children go into detention with them?

My Lords, the answer is: no. In principle, without going into the hazy detail of my recollection of the child care laws, there are two grounds. I believe that social services would not lightly separate a child from his parents if an alternative provision were available. That seems to be right and proper in child care law. If I am wrong in my recollection of that law, I shall certainly write to my noble friend.

For the reasons that I have illustrated, while we wish to minimise the time that children are detained with their families, we believe that it is an unavoidable part of a necessary process of managing the asylum system.

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I noticed that the right reverend Prelate asked for clarification on a point which perhaps has been puzzling other noble Lords—that is, the position on Amendments Nos. 34 and 35. Those amendments were debated in a group yesterday and a vote took place. One's usual understanding is that, when a vote takes place after a group of amendments has been moved, there is, for the convenience of the House, only one vote. I believe it is technically the position that Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 were not moved and that therefore Clauses 34 and 35 are still part of the Bill.

However, is it not also the position that the main heat in the debate yesterday was generated by the reference in Clause 34(2) to the fact that an accommodation centre cannot place children in a local authority school? The Government will now be looking at the position on Clauses 34 and 35 in the light of the amendment moved yesterday. Although the right reverend Prelate assumed that he was correct in saying that Clauses 34 and 35 had fallen, that is not the position.

However, in the light of the circumstances, no doubt the whole question of what to do about yesterday's amendments and Clauses 34 and 35 will be considered. I believe that people who are unfamiliar with the proceedings of this House might assume that either the right reverend Prelate should have pressed the matter to a vote after dinner yesterday, which would have been awkward, or that he should have pressed a vote today. Therefore, it might be useful if my noble friend were to respond by saying that his understanding is different from that of the right reverend Prelate but, nevertheless, is along the lines of what I have just described.

My Lords, the position as explained to me by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, when he was Leader of this House some time ago, is that an amendment follows on another which has been put to a vote without further ado if it is consequential upon it. As I understand it, the amendment moved last night by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth was intended to, and had the effect of, placing children of asylum seekers in mainstream schools. Therefore, it was necessarily consequential upon it that Clauses 34 and 35 should fall. However, I understand that that must still be formally moved by the right reverend Prelate. If he wishes to do so, I believe that that would put the matter to rest.

My Lords, I am extremely reluctant to speak on this matter but I probably have no choice. The first point is that I have been advised by the Table that we have passed Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 and—for reasons that the House knows better than I—one cannot go backwards in terms of our processes.

The second point is that the noble Earl is right and, if I understand the record correctly, Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 were not moved and therefore still stand. I am speaking not as an expert on the process so if that is not the case, we will confer with the usual channels rapidly. This is not an issue on which the Government want in any way to get involved. We will accept whatever procedural ruling the House makes. We do not wish to be caught up in an issue about procedure on a vote on which we have lost the first of the three amendments that were moved together.

I am advised that Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 can be deleted at Third Reading.

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that in light of the amendment that was moved and passed last night, if Clauses 34 and 35 remain the Bill is now a nonsense? It would be helpful if my noble friend could indicate what steps the Government will take to make logical a Bill that is, at the moment, illogical.

My Lords, if I am right, the House is master of the Bill rather than the Government. I will not comment on whether or not the Bill is a nonsense. I remind the House of how much work we have to do today and how important it is to give attention to these measures. The advice that I have given the Committee is the best and most honest that I can give. It is true advice and we are where we are. This is not an issue on which the Government have a view or in which they wish to get involved.

My Lords, I apologise for being responsible for this muddle. I returned to the Chamber, leaving my hot dinner in the oven, to move Amendments Nos. 34 and 35 but was told that I did not have to do so. I was not quite quick enough earlier. I am very sorry to have landed the House in this mess, but I hope that it can be picked up.

I would just point out that I heard from BID about the family who had a refusal. They were served with it at home and were immediately detained. They were not given a removal date at that stage. They had always complied and never absconded. If anyone wants to find out more about that family or anything else, I ask them to contact BID.

Turning now to the amendment, I will not detain the House—I have been turbulent enough as it is—but with regard to the 11-month issue, I pass around statistics reluctantly. That is partly because I cannot add up. Maths have never been my strong point. I fully support the two-month dream that the Government have. In every word that I have spoken about asylum seekers in this Chamber since I entered the House, I have supported the Government and encouraged them to grasp the nettle and bring down the appeal time as much as possible.

However, I cannot accept the idea that the amendments are unrealistic. We must hold fast to a vision of what children are and who they are as people. I do not believe that we can sell them cheap because of exceptional circumstances. I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for his courtesy but I still want to test the opinion of the House.

My Lords, before the Committe—

Order!

moved Amendment No. 38:

My Lords, in the flurry of excitement about some of the previous procedures, I omitted to say that we would be happy to look at the noble and learned Lord' s suggestion, which sounds as if it is very close to getting two hits on two consecutive days.

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I do so with much gratitude to the Minister for his encouraging words.

moved Amendment No. 41:

moved Amendment No. 42:

moved Amendment No. 43:

After Clause 55, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, it has been English law since the 17th century, and some would say since the 14th century—I incline myself towards the latter view—that one cannot arrest and detain a person unless he has been proved guilty of an offence or one wants immediately to charge him with an offence and bring him to a trial at which the charge may be answered. Clearly, that has been English law for a long time. The question is how far that law applies to foreign citizens in this country.

In the early 1990s I used to say that we were the only party prepared to come into office willing to limit our own power. During the passage of the Human Rights Act, my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill pointed out that the Government were also able to claim the credit for that principle. They were prepared to come into office ready to limit their own power. That was an accurate statement and I do them honour for it. But the process is one that necessarily hurts and when we were in office we found that it hurt. Measures such as the Official Secrets Act 1911 are not among the great glories of my party.

However, this Government have to accept that they cannot detain people simply because they believe that it would be more convenient to do so. They must be able to charge people with an offence and to give them written reasons, to which they may make a reply and to which they may make a defence. The incorporation of the European convention applies what used to be described exclusively as the liberties of Englishmen, not to mention Scotsmen, to other people from other countries. That was a great leap forward and one must not stop half-way through a great leap forward or one suffers a terrible splash.

My Lords, the noble Earl has spoken with authority, but I confess to a degree of exasperation. During previous stages I expressed disappointment with the repeal of Part 3 and the lack of proper procedures for explaining to detainees the reasons for their detention. The Minister has offered us a pamphlet advertising the right to bail, which is welcome, but it is not a substitute for a proper judicial process.

My Lords, we are not, as yet, debating Part 3 bail.

My Lords, that is right, but I cannot help but make the point that the two matters are connected although not grouped together. I am concerned with the lack of proper procedures for explaining to detainees the reasons for their detention as I have mentioned before. I feel strongly that the checklist known as form IS91R should and could be improved at least to allow space to record the detainee's individual circumstances. The present form is contrary to UN guidance, as presented in evidence three years ago to the Select Committee, which said:

"Individualised written reasons, as opposed to repetition of generic formulae, for detention should be given to detainees at the time of arrest".

The improved form, besides fulfilling the UN criteria, could also become the basis for information prepared for bail hearings. I believe that there is new ground for debate on this matter. Therefore, it links directly with the arguments being made for automatic or regular bail hearings. Bail summaries should be available in advance of hearings to enable the detainee to prepare. That will save the time of the court.

A number of points arise from the Minister's recent conversations with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, as already mentioned. I hope, for example, that we shall hear clearly from the Minister on the critical question of how the effects of torture and other medical information are recorded in the case of individual detainees. It is precisely because of the need for that information to be properly noted that we were arguing for an improved version of the written reasons. Many of us remained wholly unsatisfied with the present situation as the bail for immigration detainees case studies show. We remain of the view that assurances clearly given in 1999 by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Williams of Mostyn and Lord Falconer, have not been honoured. The Home Office still needs to put the matter right. I support the amendment.

My Lords, will the Minister kindly tell the House why he believes that Clause 55 of the Bill conforms to the European Convention on Human Rights? The Government have certified that that is so, but I, for one, would welcome an explanation.

My Lords, the Detention Centre Rules 2001 require every detained person to be provided with written reasons for detention at the time of his initial detention and monthly thereafter. The notice must be explained to the detainee, using an interpreter if necessary, and must be certified by an immigration officer.

It is not the case that the current notice provides only generalised reasons for detention. It sets out the specific power of detention used and specifies the particular reasons and factors that apply to the decision to detain in the individual case concerned. The powers, reasons and factors that may be indicated on the notice are the only ones that can apply in any case.

Our view is that an individual letter would cite exactly the same information, so a letter or other document drawn up for each individual case, as required by this new clause, would provide no information that is not already given in the notice.

To strengthen the monthly review process we have recently set up a central unit to manage detained cases. The unit is responsible for reviewing continuing detention in all cases and will also track detained cases through the asylum and appeals process. In addition to regular monthly reviews, the unit will also conduct event-driven reviews at other times, thus ensuring that the matter of continuing detention is considered even more frequently. It will also continue to be the case that detention will be reviewed at a local level on a weekly basis.

As part of the changes to the system of monthly reviews of detention, we shall also be reviewing the notice given to detainees to let them know the outcome of the detention review. It may be that the notice should be revised to improve the way in which it provides reasons for continuing detention. We have not closed our eyes to such a need.

On the question from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on the powers, detention for immigration purposes is expressly authorised by Article 5.1(f) of the ECHR, which permits the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.

My Lords, the Minister has just invoked Article 5.1(f) of the convention, but surely once a claim for asylum has been lodged, which must necessarily be true of all people under consideration now, that is overridden by Clause 31(1) of the 1951 Convention on Refugees. The matter came before Lord Justice Simon Brown judicially in a recent case and was determined without any ambiguity.

My Lords, as discussed in Committee and in the Home Office's response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, we fully accept the implied limitations on the power to detain for a reasonable time for the purpose allowed by the power and the detaining authority acting with reasonable expedition. I shall consider the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. Without the clauses in front of me it would be flippant to dismiss it. However, I do not want to imply that we consider, for a second, that we are not operating fully within the power of the law. In support of that I would advance that clearly any person who is detained has a right of challenge to the courts either under judicial review or under habeas corpus for their removal. Therefore, I would have expected that in that case, were there to be such a flaw, it would already have been found out. I am further advised that Article 31.1 of the 1951 convention refers to penalties. Immigration detention is not a penalty for these purposes.

I indicated earlier, in what I said in terms of monthly reviews, that our minds are not closed as to whether improvements can be made with regard to the notification of initial decisions. The form is kept under review. We shall consider improvements. But currently we remain satisfied that the form is a right and appropriate way of giving the information that we are obliged to give. I should welcome receiving any representations made by your Lordships or other organisations if there are points that they want to bring to my attention.

My Lords, that is fairly helpful. I welcome what the Minister has said about the central unit, which is to review cases in detention and to conduct its own written reviews, which seems a good idea to me. It is also, most importantly from the point of view of this amendment, to look again at notices which are given to detainees. I am grateful to the Minister for his kind assurance that he will consult us and any of the agencies that are concerned in these matters, in order to see what they think should be done to improve the way that the forms are worded.

To the best of my knowledge, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, was correct that both the IS 91, which is given to a person on his initial detention, and the IS 151, given on the renewal of his detention, contain a checklist. That is what we consider to be inadequate. If a detainee receives a piece of paper which has been mechanically ticked and states, "You are likely to abscond if given temporary admission or release", we would consider that to be inadequate. A detainee is entitled to an explanation as to why an immigration officer takes the view that he is likely to abscond if he is given temporary release.

These are matters that we could discuss in detail. Therefore, I shall take up the Minister's invitation. I shall bring the experience of the organisation BID to that discussion and perhaps we may jointly have a meeting with it. Therefore, its input can be listened to by the Home Office officials. I am most grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 44:

Leave out Clause 57.

My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of Amendment No. 54A. This concerns the revoking of exceptional leave to remain. The Home Secretary has in the past week been giving out slightly contradictory messages. On the one hand he has been urging immigrants to integrate, with perhaps extreme zeal in the matter of language. There is nothing wrong with the urge to integrate. But at the same time he made remarks in the paper at the end of last week appearing to threaten large-scale revocation of ELR already granted to people in this country for perfectly good reasons.

Can the Minister confirm that the Government do not intend any substantial revocation of exceptional leave to remain already granted, except for the reasons contained in this clause? I declare an interest in that I am asking this question on behalf of someone whose future I view with some concern.

My Lords, I am not certain that I caught every word of what the noble Earl, Lord Russell, was saying. I was conferring with the Table about where we were. I heard the noble Earl say that he was speaking to Amendment No. 54A. We are dealing with Amendment No. 44. I should be happy to return to his point when we reach Amendment No. 54A.

Clause 57 gives detainee custody officers acting under escort a limited power of entry to private premises in order to search detained persons prior to escorting them to a place of detention. The persons being taken to a place of detention must be searched before they are transported; most obviously to ensure that they are not carrying weapons or dangerous items. The search is to ensure the safety and security of the escort, the public and the detained person, including other detainees who may be in the escort vehicle. I should not have thought that that issue was in contention. The power to do so is given under paragraph 2 of Schedule 13 to the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999.

At present escorting officers cannot enter premises other than by consent. Where such consent is not given, the detained person is taken to the nearest police station to be searched. As we said in Committee, that can be embarrassing and laborious for the detained person. There are therefore real problems that the clause is an attempt to address in a limited, practical and reasonable way by ensuring that the escort can carry out the necessary search of detainees at the address at which they have been detained.

I stress that the power of entry under the clause is limited. It can be exercised only when the escort is accompanied by police or immigration officers who have a warrant to enter the premises where the person has been detained—where the escort will not be acting alone and the address will have already been entered. We took note of concerns expressed earlier about the consequential power of escorts to use force in exercising the principal power to enter an address. As a result, the provision regarding the use of force is now explicitly qualified to state that only reasonable force may be used. That places a greater burden of responsibility on the official. However, the provisions of Clause 57 are a necessary remedy to a situation that is causing problems.

On the question of how complaints against escorts are handled, the initial complaints will be directed to the Immigration Service's escort contract monitor, but under Schedule 13(1), the monitor is required to investigate and report to the Secretary of State on any allegations made against an escorting officer in respect of any act or failure to act while escorting a detained person. The detainee custody officer certificate may be suspended during such a process and may subsequently be revoked. So there are clear sanctions—also, of course, escorts are ultimately answerable in law for any action.

On the other question of why escorts are not subject to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 code of practice, certain provisions of the PACE codes apply to the search of persons arrested by immigration officers. However, in relation to escorts' entry to premises, it will be the police and the immigration officers who will effect the entry to premises, with the escort following.

Having made those points and given my explanation of why the provision is necessary, what are the safeguards and what is the complaints procedure for redress, I hope that the noble Lord will not be minded to press the amendment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. I apologise for any confusion about Amendment No. 44, which my noble friend mistook. Will the Minister confirm that he said that a custody officer would not have power on his own to enter premises, he would be accompanied by police or an immigration officer in possession of a warrant who could do so?

My Lords, that is absolutely correct.

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 45:

After Clause 59, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, for the Minister to say that the Government want to put the issue beyond doubt and peradventure because of one case—one judgment—is the most marvellous way to describe building a mountain out of a rather small molehill. It is extraordinary that the new clause, which, as the Minister will accept, immensely broadens the Secretary of State's powers to detain people under the immigration Acts, should come before Parliament at this late stage, when the Bill has been discussed in another place since May and we are on the second day of Report in this House. There has therefore been no opportunity for widespread reflection or consultation on what I think that the Minister would concede is a remarkable new clause.

It is remarkable, first, for its extraordinary drafting. I walk on thin ice here; I am not a lawyer. During all the years when I was an immigration Minister, I never became an expert immigration lawyer. But during 23 years in the House of Commons, I had to read an awful lot of Bills. The new clause states:

"This section applies to the construction of a reference (in any terms) to a person".

What on earth does that mean? Does it just mean that the draftsman could not be bothered to go through all the immigration Acts to which that may refer, and so simply said, "It will refer to everything that is possibly involved"? I have never seen such terms before. On first reading the new clause, I did not pick up just how serious that was and to what extent it increases the detention powers of the Secretary of State.

The new clause concludes:

"This section shall be treated as always having had effect".

That is the most marvellous example of retrospection that I have ever read.

I understand what the Minister said: there is one case about which the Government are worried so they needed to table a new clause. Obviously, there will be an opportunity for it to be debated at greater length on Thursday in two weeks' time—I think that that is what the Minister said. Is that correct?

No, my Lords.

Oh, this is once and for all.

In fairness, other noble Lords on the Government Benches, such as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, may want to ask some of the same questions as me. Roughly translated, the clause appears to mean, "We are not very good at removals. We do not anticipate getting any better. Nor do we anticipate committing the expertise and resources to the area that would make us better. So we shall take power to continue to detain people without judicial oversight, limit of time and, what is more, we shall make that power wholly retrospective". That is amazing.

Either the Government intend to take powers that will put them in breach of their obligations under Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights or lazy drafting has resulted in a provision that will have that effect. The advice given to me by the Immigration Advisory Service, to which I am grateful for bringing the matter to my attention, is that the decision appears to pre-empt the judgment in an important case—the Oakington case—in which the judgment of the House of Lords is currently awaited. I understand that the issue before the House of Lords is whether locking up asylum seekers to facilitate the process of administering their claims to asylum amounts to a deprivation of liberty and is unjustified under Article 5(1)(c) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The Court of Appeal reversed the decision of the High Court, which the Joint Committee on Human Rights summarised as being that,

"it is lawful to detain a person in a detention centre while the application is considered, provided that there are suitable safeguards… With regard to the length of detention, the question is whether it is disproportionate to the purpose of detention having regard to the conditions of detention and any special circumstances affecting the individual. The Court of Appeal appeared to hold that detention of asylum-seekers which satisfied those tests did not amount to a deprivation of liberty under Article 5(1)."

It must be said that the JCHR's words, "appeared to hold", may be read as an indication that the decision in the House of Lords in this case is far from a foregone conclusion—which, I understand, is also the view of other commentators.

I do not want to take up your Lordships' attention for too long on the matter, but on the question of lazy drafting, will the Minister clarify the meaning of the word "decision" in new subsection (2)(c)? It appears to be without restriction. Moreover, what is meant by the reference in subsection (2)(a) to legal impediments due to international obligations? If a person cannot be removed because of the United Kingdom's obligations under the 1951 refugee convention or under Article 3 of the ECHR, is that reason enough to detain the person, none the less? From the way that the clause is worded, it appears to be. The legitimation of detention of a person who cannot be removed from the UK because of a legal impediment is worded so as to shroud the actual meaning.

I shall give an example in layman's language. Subsection (2)(a) would refer to groups such as Zimbabweans. The Minister knows that, when the Government decided earlier this year that it would be impossible, impractical and wrong to continue to deport Zimbabweans to Zimbabwe, the Zimbabweans who were in detention were immediately released. Under this clause, as I understand it, such people would not be released. Is that what the Government intend, or is it a case of lazy, hasty drafting designed to deal with a particular case and done without anyone thinking through the serious consequences that would flow from such a clause?

My Lords, optimist that I am, I hope to persuade the Minister that the right procedure would be not to move the amendment today but bring it back at Third Reading. I shall explain why.

I echo what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry. There is a serious danger that, if Parliament were to accept the new clause, it would authorise breaches of the right to liberty in Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights. I shall come to the strange wording, of which I seek clarification, in a moment.

The first thing that I must say is that, unfortunately, the Joint Select Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, is taking evidence in the Antipodes and is, therefore, not available to give advice to the House about its views of the compatibility or otherwise of the clause with the European convention. The committee's legal adviser, Professor David Feldman, is in this country, and I would like to have time to consult him and, if authorised, present his view to the House before we take this step.

In a commendably brief speech in favour of the amendment, the Minister did not explain to the House—certainly not to me—the reasoning behind the High Court judgment, why it creates difficulties and whether it relates to human rights issues. I know nothing of the particular case. However, I do know that it is unusual, to say the least, for Parliament to be asked to give the Minister powers that will nullify a future decision of the House of Lords in a pending case. That applies not only to the case to which the Minister referred but to the Oakington case, which is pending before the House of Lords as well. The noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, referred to that. Parliament has no access to independent legal advice on such matters, other than through the Joint Select Committee on Human Rights. Given that the committee cannot give that advice at the moment, for the reason that I have given, where is the Minister's explanation of his presumed view that the amendment is compatible with Article 5?

If the Committee were in the country, the procedure would be different. We would identify a problem—as in Amendment No. 45—and ask the Minister to give us his reasons, in writing or orally, why he considered that the provision is compatible. We would then comment on the Minister's views and refer them for the attention of both Houses. That procedure could not be followed in this case, and the Minister has not given the House the benefit of his considered views and those of his legal advisers—without going into questions of legal professional privilege, which I do not seek to do—on compatibility.

We should consider what the clause says. It is bizarre and curious. It is headed, "Liability to detention: interpretation". It is a general clause, which purports to widen the Home Office's powers of detention. It states:

"This section applies to the construction of a reference (in any terms) to a person who is liable to detention under a provision of the Immigration Acts".

That is as broad as could be. Then, it states:

"The reference shall be taken to include a person"—

to be detained—

"if the only reason why he cannot be detained under the provision is that—

(a) he cannot presently be removed from the United Kingdom because of a legal impediment connected with the United Kingdom's obligations under an international agreement".

The two most relevant international agreements are the European Convention on Human Rights and the refugee convention.

Let us consider a case that arose last year with the anti-terrorism law and a suspected terrorist who had to be detained because, if he were sent to another country, he would face the death penalty or torture, in breach of Article 2 or 3 of the European convention. The Government rightly took the view that holding someone in those circumstances would be in breach of Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights, unless there were a derogation. So, a derogation was made. There was a huge debate about it in both Houses, and its compatibility is now being tested in the courts. However, the Government did, at least, seek a derogation for a suspected terrorist in those circumstances.

However, this provision does not apply only to a suspected terrorist, a case that the present derogation would cover. It covers anybody who is liable to be detained but,

"cannot presently be removed from the United Kingdom, because of a legal impediment"—

whatever that means—

"connected with"—

whatever that means—

"the United Kingdom's obligations"

under the European Convention on Human Rights or the refugee convention. In other words, as I read it—I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong—it authorises the detention of someone who cannot be removed from this country to face the death penalty or torture but who is not a suspected terrorist and has not been convicted, or is not suspected, of a serious criminal offence.

If I have got that right—and I ask the Minister to make quite clear to the House his understanding of the full scope of the power and his reasons for believing the powers sought to be compatible with Article 5, notwithstanding the absence of derogation—I must protest with as much eloquence as I can muster. It is entirely wrong that powers of this magnitude should be sought, after the enormous controversy that we had over the terrorism legislation—a much more serious situation—a year ago, in the guise of putting right a High Court decision that might be affirmed by the Law Lords next July and causes administrative inconvenience.

I cannot expect the Minister to give a full explanation to the House today, without notice, of his reasons for considering the provision to be compatible with the convention. I cannot expect him to set out the whole High Court decision to which he refers—it would be boring if he had to do so—and I cannot expect him to explain why it is right prospectively to make the rulings of the Law Lords irrelevant to the law of this country. However, given that the Joint Select Committee on Human Rights is not here to do its job and that Parliament has no access to independent legal advice, I respectfully suggest, in deference to our accountability to Parliament as law makers, that we should postpone consideration of the amendment until the House has had the benefit of a full explanation and can consider it at Third Reading.

My Lords, it might help the House if I spoke more fully at this point, so that I can put into the discussion more of the argumentation. As several noble Lords have said, it is important to understand it. With the leave of the House, I will do that, as it may focus the discussion. Perhaps I left too much for my closing speech and should have put more into my opening speech. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden, will bear with me on that I think it would help the discussion, leaving open for a second the procedural issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester.

First, we accept that this is only one case.

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there will be an opportunity for other Members to speak and that this is not his closing speech?

My Lords, I am advised by the Table that the way that I have phrased it makes it clear that other Members can speak after me because I am giving information to the House, rather than making my closing speech.

We certainly accept that this is only one case, but it has significant ramifications. It is fundamental to the discussion that the clause does not authorise detention. For that reason we believe it is compatible with ECHR because we will not detain anyone as a result of the clause. No one will be detained but the power relates to the ability to grant temporary admission to people who are not detained. The judgment of the High Court is that one cannot detain someone if at that precise moment he cannot be granted temporary admission either. We want to be able to grant temporary admission and because there is no detention we believe there is no issue of incompatibility with Article 5. The judgment held that temporary admission is not available when the power to detain no longer exists.

Paragraph 16 of Schedule 2 to the Immigration Act 1971 allows certain categories of people to be detained pending a decision whether or not to give directions for their removal. I regret to say to the House that this statement will take some time because it is highly technical and highly legal material and I need to put it into the record in full. Where removal directions are given, they may then be detained pending removal. Paragraph 21 of that schedule provides that where a person is liable to detention or who is actually detained under paragraph 16 he can be admitted or released temporarily. This temporary admission or release can be subject to conditions requiring the person to live at a particular address and to report at specified times.

As noble Lords will be aware, there is no set time limit to the power to detain but for the detention to be lawful it has to be for the reasons stated and may go on for no longer than is reasonable in order to achieve the objective for which it is authorised. For example, if removal cannot be reasonably said to be pending, in the sense that it is not going to be possible to remove the person within a reasonable time, the person concerned cannot be detained. When this point is reached, the normal practice is to grant temporary release under paragraph 21. This will generally be subject to conditions of the kind I have described.

However, in the case I mentioned, Hwez and Khadir, Mr Justice Crane held that the term "liable to be detained" did not refer to the category of person, but in effect means the same as "could lawfully be detained at that moment". In other words, if the point is reached where someone can no longer be lawfully detained, the alternative of granting temporary release on conditions is not available. We may not detain, yet we may not impose restrictions on them (via the authorisation of temporary admission) while they remain in the United Kingdom. This is so even where it is our firm intention to remove the person concerned as soon as it is possible to do so.

Similarly, if a person is on temporary admission, and a point is reached where his removal cannot be described as pending, the temporary admission ceases to be valid. Although the point made in Hwez and Khadir related specifically to powers under Schedule 2 which apply to arriving passengers, illegal entrants and overstayers, it would apply equally to someone who is the subject of deportation action under Schedule 3.

Take the case of a person who has committed a serious offence and whom we wish to deport, possibly someone who has been recommended by a court for deportation. The 1971 Act allows that person to be detained after he has completed his sentence pending his deportation from the UK, but this is again subject to a test of what is reasonable in all the circumstances. Normally if such a person cannot lawfully be detained, he will be released subject to restrictions requiring him to live at a particular place and report on a regular basis. That way, the Immigration Service is able to keep in contact with the person concerned. Following the decision in Hwez and Khadir, there is no legal basis for imposing such requirements.

The ability to require someone who is physically present in the UK but does not have leave to reside at a particular address and to report to the police or Immigration Service on a regular basis is crucial if we are to stand any chance of being able to keep track of him. We believe the judge's interpretation is wrong, as we have indicated, and we have been granted leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal. However, the point is unlikely to be finally settled in the near future. Of course, we do not know what the eventual outcome will be.

As I say, the ability to be able to require people to live at a particular address or to report regularly are key to the concept of contact management. We fully accept that there are implied limitations on the power to detain. But we cannot have a position where those people subject to immigration control who do not have leave to be here and whom we may not lawfully detain are able to remain in the UK pending the next stage of the immigration process—for example, removal—without us being able to impose any sort of restrictions on them, such as residence or reporting restrictions.

To deal with the effect of the judgment, subsection (2) of the proposed clause therefore makes it clear that a reference to being liable to detention includes cases where for one reason or another a decision or removal is not pending. I should stress that we are not saying that such persons may lawfully be detained. All we are trying to do is to ensure that where the ability to impose restrictions on a person subject to immigration control rests on that person being liable to be detained—paragraph 21 of Schedule 2 to the Immigration Act 1971 and paragraph 2(5) and (6) of Schedule 3 to that Act—we can do so even where we may not lawfully detain the person concerned.

The clause will come into force on Royal Assent and is to be taken as having always applied. This will make it clear beyond question that a person is in one of the categories concerned to be given temporary admission even when he cannot be—or can no longer be—lawfully detained.

I should make it clear that this does not alter the position as regards the lawfulness of a person's detention. What it does is restore the option of granting release on conditions where detention is no longer possible which was generally believed to be the position before this judgment.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. Can he point out to me, as a non-lawyer, just where that point is made clear in this clause?

My Lords, let me receive that point, but I believe that I should finish what I have to say because some of it is so technical that it is only fair to the House to put it on the record. I will then seek to come back to answer that question.

Subsection (3) of the clause has the effect of—

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Renton of Mount Harry has asked a very relevant question. I understood the Minister to say that the new clause does not make lawful continued detention. Is that what he intended to say? Is that what he believes to be the case? Certainly in the brief time one has had available to examine the Bill, that does not appear upon the face of the new clause.

My Lords, what I believe I said was that the clause does not authorise detention.

My Lords, how can that be justified? It does authorise continued detention. That is its whole purpose.

My Lords, before we go further perhaps I may deal with my response to the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill. What I am reading into the record now is of great complexity and there is clearly, as there should be, interest and concern in the House to look at it. I would not feel happy if we had a Division on an issue when it was almost impossible for people to be certain that they were in favour of dividing one way or another. Therefore I intend to read into the record of Hansard the full reasons for the Government's position on the matter, and do not intend to force the amendment today. That will allow the House the opportunity to consider the amendment. I should stress that this is to allow the House the opportunity to consider it before Third Reading because we wish to make progress at Third Reading. I hope that that is acceptable. Even though it is not the most attractive course of action, I feel that it is only fair to the House.

My Lords, that would meet my concern. It would give the House the opportunity to understand the proposed new clause—which, on its face, is not very clear—and it would give us time to think about it before we decide whether to make it a part of the law of the land.

My Lords, in a Bill of this nature, normally the department is good enough to supply explanatory notes. It would be helpful if an explanatory note on the effect of the clause could be provided in the mean time.

My Lords, that is a further good suggestion. We shall do that. It will enable us to amplify any points which are not covered by what I am now reading into the record. It may also pick up some of the other questions raised. I hope that that is acceptable.

My Lords, other noble colleagues may wish to ask further questions—that I well understand—but any approval of this clause should be suspended until Third Reading. There should be an explanatory note so that we can all understand what the Government are intending to cover in the new clause, which is not at all clear at the moment. That would be a very satisfactory solution.

My Lords, that is what we shall do. Perhaps I may continue. It will, I am afraid, be tedious, but it is essential that I continue the exposition in order to have on the record the finality of it.

Subsection (3) has the effect of giving the clause retrospective effect. This means that an argument by persons who, in the light of the judgment of Mr Justice Crane, might seek to say that the restrictions which had been imposed on them under paragraph 21 of Schedule 2 or paragraph 2(5) of Schedule 3 to the Immigration Act 1971 were or had become invalid, would fail. Subsection (3) has the effect of validating the authorisation of temporary admission and restrictions imposed.

The reason for the retrospective effect of the clause is that it is simply not possible for the Immigration Service to identify all of those persons who, in the light of Mr Justice Crane's judgment, may not be subject to any valid restrictions, and to re-authorise temporary admission to such persons, and re-impose fresh restrictions on them on commencement of this clause on Royal Assent. The retrospective effect of the clause avoids the need for the immigration authorities to do this.

There may be some concern about the retrospective nature of this clause given that it is a criminal offence under Section 24(1)(e) of the Immigration Act 1971 to breach restrictions imposed under Schedules 2 or 3 to the 1971 Act without reasonable excuse. As the law stands at the moment in the light of Mr Justice Crane's judgment, and should Mr Justice Crane's judgment be upheld on appeal, there may well be people who can say that in the light of that interpretation of the power to authorise temporary admission and impose restrictions on them, the restrictions imposed on them had not been validly imposed and therefore they had no reason to comply with them whether or not they had a reasonable excuse.

As I have explained, the effect of subsection (3) of the clause will be to validate those restrictions. I have explained the reasons for needing to validate those restrictions, but I must make it very clear that it is the Government's intention that the retrospective effect of the provision will not operate so as to create any criminal liability under Section 24(1)(e) of the Immigration Act 1971 for breach of restrictions validated by it in respect of the period prior to its enactment. The intention is that subsection (3) would not operate so as to impose criminal liability on persons who had breached restrictions imposed on them under paragraph 21 of Schedule 2 or paragraph 2(5) of Schedule 3 to the 1971 Act before this clause comes into effect to the extent that the courts find that those restrictions, but for the retrospective effect of this clause, had not been validly imposed at the time when the restrictions were breached.

Criminal liability would, however, arise if a person whose restrictions had been validated by this clause failed to comply with such restrictions without a reasonable excuse after the clause comes into force.

And, of course, where restrictions have been validly imposed before this provision comes into force and no question as to their validity is raised as a result of Mr Justice Crane's judgment, or any future judgment on appeal of that decision, then a person may face prosecution now and after commencement of this provision, as before, if they have breached those restrictions without reasonable excuse. Nothing in this clause affects the position of such persons.

I am conscious of how highly technical this is. I repeat the assurance that I gave to the House: we do not intend to move the amendment. That will give the House an opportunity to consider the proposed new clause and its explanatory note. I hope that that will expedite business, both today and at Third Reading.

My Lords, I am afraid that I shall not be as kind about this proposed new clause as my noble friend Lord Renton of Mount Harry.

I wish to begin my short contribution by a word of kindness, or at least consideration, towards the parliamentary draftsman. It is unduly harsh to refer to this as lazy draftmanship. When I had some responsibility for the parliamentary draftsmen, the very last quality I would associate with any one of them was that of laziness. The fault with this clause—and it is an enormous fault—lies not with the draftsman, whom I am sure was told to construct a scattergun or blunderbuss clause—which is exactly what has been constructed—but with those who gave the instructions.

The new clause deals with the power of the state to detain people—that is to say, to deprive them of their liberty. As we all know, in the context of immigration law, this power has been dealt with by successive immigration Acts. Those Acts have imposed, very properly, at the instance of Parliament, strict limitations on the powers they confer to detain, to deprive people of their liberty. In the new clause, those provisions apply to people "who are liable to detention". Very properly, those powers are limited. In other words, it is only in very carefully defined and strictly limited circumstances that a person may be liable to have his liberty curtailed. That is absolutely right and four-square with our traditions in this country.

Now, as we have heard from the Minister—for whom I feel I must express deep sympathy at being handed such a brief—the Government are faced with the judgment of which we have heard. He will forgive me if I do not follow him in the technical explanation that he has given, which extended over four or five closely typed pages. The Government have responded to the judgment about which we have been informed by blandly referring to obligations, entered into freely by this country, in international law as an impediment to the removal of a person.

It is an impediment indeed. I have always understood that this Government took great credit for upholding international law, but in recognising that there are circumstances where international law imposes an impediment on removal, they recognise, as I understand it, that the person concerned can no longer be regarded as liable to detention. So what do the Government do? They introduce, by a blunderbuss clause, provisions which make people who are no longer liable to detention, liable to detention. That is the effect of the clause. It is intended to be the effect of the clause.

Whether or not it is intended to have that effect, that is the effect that it has. I respectfully suggest that when the Minister began his explanation, he was not justified in saying that the clause does not authorise detention. It does. It authorises detention where continued detention has been found to be unlawful by reason of an impediment imposed by international law.

And it does so by the use of language which should find no place whatever in our statute book, at least in the context of deprivation of liberty—that is, the extraordinary provision that,

"This section shall be treated as always having had effect".

Perhaps the Minister will take instructions as to whether such a provision has ever found place in the statute book, certainly in connection with the deprivation of liberty. I regard it as almost literally breathtaking.

We now find the Minister saying that, although punitive penal provisions in the legislation would technically be engaged, it is not the Government's intention that the new clause should operate to impose criminal sanctions. But that is exactly what the new clause does. One could continue to an extent that would weary the heavens, let alone this House, about the iniquities of this new clause. It really must not happen.

Yesterday, much concern was expressed and we heard reassurances from the Government that children, for example, would not remain in detention for long, and therefore the concerns expressed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth would not be met with in fact. Now, apparently, they are to be capable of being detained for an indefinite period, even though the Government say that that is not the intention.

Retrospective legislation is anathema to the rule of law. If there are specific cases which the Government feel must be dealt with, that must be done by specifically targeted legislation and not by this iniquitous blunderbuss.

My Lords, to my simple mind, not understanding all the issues involved, it seems to me that what the Government are trying to do is to frustrate the immediate effect of a recent court decision, and to do it by retrospective legislation. Am I correct; and if so, do the Government really think that that is the correct thing to do?

My Lords, I, too, should like to ask the Government about the constitutional propriety of what they are doing. As I understand it, the case of Hwez and Khadir was decided by Mr Justice Crane, among other things, on a human rights issue. I am assuming that that is so. If it is the case, there must be a chance that the Judicial Committee of this House will confirm that judgment.

If the Government proceed with this amendment, therefore, there will be a clear incompatibility between statute law and the European Convention on Human Rights. If this legislation is on the statute book by the time the Judicial Committee takes its decision, that incompatibility will have to be declared by the committee. Yet the Government have already certified the Bill as being compatible with the European convention.

The Government know all of that in advance. Surely the Government must accept that, in the light of that knowledge, it would be wholly inappropriate to pursue this amendment.

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, issued us with an historical challenge: to find anything similar providing that a restriction on liberty should always have had effect. Before visiting the Library, I cannot confirm it, but I believe that there is one precedent; namely, the replies to the questions of Richard II to the judges in 1386. Within 18 months, those judges had been impeached—and I do not need to tell your Lordships what happened to Richard II.

My Lords, before the Minister replies, since I raised the matter in what he may regard as high-falutin terms, perhaps I may respond to the information that he has given. I have listened carefully to him and in so far as I understand the technicality of what he is saying—I shall certainly want to read his remarks in Hansard—the position is this. This provision, although its rubric is,

"Liability to detention: interpretation",

has nothing to do with liability to detention. Therefore, the rubric is misleading. As I understand the Minister's remarks, it relates to a liability to have conditions imposed on someone who cannot be detained, but as regards residence, reporting and matters of that kind. If that is the position, I respectfully suggest that it should not be beyond the wit of Parliamentary Counsel to draft a narrower, carefully tailored amendment that would deal with that. It would then seem to me to be entirely unobjectionable to fill that gap, notwithstanding one's normal horror at retrospective legislation. But, on the face of it, the provision as drafted seems to go much wider than that. If that could be done, I am sure that it would meet my concerns and those of other noble Lords.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for his thoughtful suggestion. I shall consider it and see whether a redrafting of the amendment would aid clarification and might aid the appearance of better law-making.

I shall not respond in detail. It has been helpful to hear the challenges. We shall examine this issue in detail and publish Explanatory Notes. That will give the House a proper opportunity to see, with the benefit of those notes and some time, on the record, whether there are grounds for the concerns raised.

The timing of the introduction of this new clause, on Report, is unavoidable in that the judgment did not take place until 29th July. For the reasons I have indicated, we feel that there are pressing issues. Exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said, we are talking essentially about the power to grant temporary admission, not the interpretation of the power to detain. However, I shall not press that point at this stage. Let the record be inspected; let us put out Explanatory Notes; and, if it would help the House, let us offer bilateral discussions between now and Third Reading, so that one can try to ensure that there are no misinterpretations. For the avoidance of doubt, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 47:

After Clause 60, insert the following new clause—

My Lords, the present situation is that asylum seekers and other immigration cases are being detained for up to 11 months. A small sample survey that was quoted in your Lordships' House earlier today showed that there was a four-month average. That is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs that we thought had been remedied by the 1999 Act, which provided for automatic bail hearings. Regrettably, that part of the Act was never brought into force, and, today, Amendment No. 46, which would have revived it, was not even moved.

Therefore, we urgently need some form of automatic bail hearing, reasonable conditions of bail—not demands of £1,500 a head on people who arrived in this country almost penniless—and written reasons for the detention, so that the adjudicator or the magistrate can consider the matter properly I hope that the Government will take this amendment rather more seriously than they look the previous one.

My Lords, I wish to follow the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Avebury, in speaking to this amendment. It is yet one more example of how the Bill can be made more comprehensive, accountable and—in the best sense of the word, because I know that it has a sentimental sense also—compassionate. Given my own experience of meeting those involved in bail hearings and in dealing with asylum seekers, I hope that the amendment is given a sympathetic hearing.

My Lords, I have some queries. The amendment seems extremely restrictive in its statement that,

"Sureties may only be imposed where absolutely necessary".

I am unsure of the current position; it is probably that sureties are asked for when deemed necessary or appropriate. It is an established tradition of all bail law that those in the position to grant or refuse bail have an option to seek sureties. To suggest that they should be sought only where absolutely necessary is extremely strong and perhaps too heavy a hobbling condition precedent to be justified. The last part of the amendment states that if sureties are imposed the amount should be reasonable. That is the present position, so I am not sure why the provision needs to be there and I am not bothered by it, one way or the other. However, I am bothered by the provision that requires sureties to be requested only when absolutely necessary.

My Lords, I did not intend to intervene in this debate but I must take issue with my noble friend Lord Borrie. Essentially, we are talking about innocent people who have not been charged with a criminal offence. Normally, bail is granted when dealing with criminal offences. These are innocent people, so the concept of surety should hardly apply. From my knowledge of asylum seekers, I find it difficult to believe that any of them would have the money to provide any surety unless they had friends here who could do it for them. I find it difficult to envisage circumstances where it is necessary to detain people but where a surety would make it OK to let them out. I do not understand what the Government fear those people might get up to in respect of which a sum of money would make the activity all right. I am puzzled; I would have thought that if it is inappropriate to detain people, one does not need a surety and they should just be released. Perhaps my noble friend could clarify the matter.

My Lords, I shall seek to do my best. The option to seek sureties when granting bail, as the House knows, is an established part of the bail process. The purpose of requiring individuals to stand as surety is to try to ensure that the person bailed appears as required at the end of the bail period. That is a sensible measure.

Under the bail arrangements for immigration detainees, an applicant for bail is required, when he applies to an adjudicator for bail, to put forward the names of two persons who would be willing and able to act as sureties in the event that bail is granted. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will know, planned changes to the procedure rules will replace this requirement so that any person may act as a surety. This will be put into effect when new procedure rules are issued following the enactment of the Bill. We wrote to him on 3rd September setting that out.

However, even at present, there is no statutory requirement on an adjudicator to require that sureties stand in every case. An adjudicator may not always consider it necessary or appropriate to require persons to act as sureties before granting bail. However, where they do, it is rightly for them to judge that this is the case and to judge the amount of recognizance in which the sureties should stand. These decisions are already taken in the light of the circumstances of the detainee and of the persons acting as sureties.

The current legislation, we believe, provides a satisfactory framework in which these matters of judgment may be exercised. It is already the position that sureties will not be needed in every case. It is the judgment of the adjudicator as to whether to impose them, and we believe that adjudicators and immigration officers recognise this fact. It must be remembered that a person applying for bail is in lawful detention and, in many cases, will be considered unlikely to comply with any reporting restrictions. If that was not the case, he would no doubt have been granted temporary admission or release. When it comes to granting bail, it is quite proper that there will be cases where there should be some significant financial incentive—the amount will be judged by the adjudicator—on the detainee directly or on his sureties to comply with the terms of the bail granted. This is reasonable, sensible, and in accordance with long-standing practice. It is worth remembering that the detainee or his sureties will not lose their money provided the person on bail abides by the terms.

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what the noble Lord said. Will he consider further the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs? In the experience of many of us over the years, it is precisely the person who gets here through having been able to pay a substantial sum to somebody who can bring him who is most likely to be able to get people to put up a surety. It is the absolutely genuine asylum seeker, sometimes fleeing for his life and liberty, who will have neither money nor, in many cases, associates in this country. Indeed, in many ways, this is an instance in which he can show how genuine a refugee he is.

My Lords, I take that point and I understand it. However, there is a problem. If, in the judgment of the adjudicator—who, as the House well knows, is well distanced from and no part of the Home Office—there is a risk that the person, if bailed, would not present himself at the appropriate time, the adjudicator is entitled to require sureties and recognisances. If those cannot be provided and it is considered that there is a risk of non-presentation, the adjudicator will make the judgment in the light of those circumstances. I cannot see that the adjudicator can do much else in that situation.

I shall give a few figures that may help. On average, 84 per cent of bail grants were subject to surety conditions. It is not without conjecture that people are granted bail without any surety conditions.

In the light of what I have said and the discussions that I have had with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, I hope that he feels able to withdraw the amendment.

My Lords, I was hoping to get on the record precisely what the Minister has said, which, as he mentioned, he embodied in a letter to me, which may have been placed in the Library of your Lordships' House, but which might not have reached a wider audience if he had not made the speech to which we have just listened.

The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, may be interested to know that on one occasion when I offered to stand bail for an asylum seeker—he happened to be one of those who sought refuge here after the Afghan aircraft hijack—the adjudicator asked for £11,000. He also wanted it in cash; he did not like the cheque that I sent in. I do not think that that was reasonable. Some adjudicators have laid it on pretty thick.

The Minister has made it clear that there are planned changes to the procedure rules. I hope that they can be carried out as quickly as possible. It was clear from the note that I read out that in the minds of some practitioners and adjudicators there was still a requirement that two sureties should be imposed and that that was what Rule 34 said. Perhaps if there was wider knowledge of the freedom of adjudicators not to ask for any sureties, the percentage would go up from the current 16 per cent mentioned by the Minister to something much higher. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that adjudicators ought to be able to decide on the merits of the case whether a person is likely to comply with reporting conditions.

I can see that we are not going to make any further progress on the subject this evening. I should like the Minister to confirm—as he has done in conversations with me—that when he uses the word "any" it means that the adjudicator can refrain from asking for any sureties. He can ask for no sureties or one or two. The Minister is nodding. I mention that as a means of getting on the record the fact that he agrees with what I have just said. I hope this will encourage adjudicators not to demand sureties in many more cases and that we can get on with the changes in the procedure rules. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

moved Amendment No. 48:

My Lords, the amendment gives me the opportunity to ask the Government how many induction centres they foresee having and where they will be located. Will they be in accommodation centres? If they are not on the same site, will they at least be quite close? I look forward to the Minister's reply.

My Lords, I support the amendment. If these unfortunate people are denied independent advice at any stage while they are in the United Kingdom before they are granted asylum—if they are to be granted asylum—we must ask why. I am sure that the Minister intends that everything should be above board—I genuinely mean that. If that is the case, it is logical that at any point in the proceedings, wherever they are and whatever is happening, they should be able to have access to that advice. For that reason it is very important that my noble friend the Minister takes the point seriously.