asked Her Majesty's Government:

What proposals they have to establish a defence exports scrutiny committee.

My Lords, during the passage of the then Export Control Bill, the Government were unable to accept my noble friend's proposal for a defence exports scrutiny committee to undertake prior scrutiny of export licence application. The Secretary of State has therefore not put forward any proposals, but inter-departmental discussions are taking place to see whether we can take additional steps to achieve greater accountability and transparency in the export licensing process.

My Lords, the discussions have gone on for 12 months and nothing has happened. Does my noble friend recall that 311 elected Members of Parliament in another place supported the Motion calling for the committee to be set up? Why can we not have more rapid decision-taking on such matters?

My Lords, the discussions have been taken forward by the Cabinet Office. We should be able to report on them in the summer.

My Lords, do the Government believe that there should be wider scrutiny of the global defence trade? Do they have any policy on the offset trade that is part of most arms deals today?

My Lords, as I said, we are keen to see greater transparency and accountability in the process. That is why we are having the discussions. Offset is a different issue that needs to be considered in a different way.

My Lords. the Minister talked about greater transparency, which I am sure that everyone wants in all kinds of deals. However, does he agree that there would be a risk to the commercial confidentiality of potential purchasers as well as of exporters? It would need to be handled very carefully to make sure that they did not take their business elsewhere.

My Lords, when we turned the proposal for a defence exports scrutiny committee down during our discussions on the then Export Control Bill, we gave three main reasons why we did not think it appropriate. The third was that there was a danger that it would give rise to legal difficulties, cause delay and possibly compromise confidentiality without necessarily improving the quality of decisions. That was a key consideration.

My Lords, do the Government accept that the record is somewhat depressing? Have we not seen too often weapons and ammunition that we have exported used against either civilian populations or even our own military forces?

My Lords, everyone agrees that the control of arms is extremely difficult. However, I do not think that our record is depressing. On the whole, there has been very close control in what are difficult circumstances.

My Lords, are any defence export orders outstanding for Indonesia? In view of the fact that the Indonesian Government have refused to give an undertaking that it will not use the Hawks and Scorpions with which we supplied them in the past in the civil conflict in Aceh, will the Government not consider some means whereby Parliament can scrutinise the orders outstanding for that country?

My Lords, I am not aware of what discussions are taking place, and I will write to the noble Lord on that point. However, I should point out that the discussions are confidential until an export licence is given or not.

My Lords, my noble friend will know that the Quadripartite Select Committee in another place, which has a great interest in such matters, recently produced a further report. What does he think of its latest findings on the recommendation that was made last year?

My Lords, I am afraid to say that I have not read the report in great detail. I will go back and read it very carefully and give my noble friend an answer.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What progress they have made on developing the National Service Framework for Children.

My Lords, the first set of children's national service framework documents was published on 10th April. It includes the standard for hospital services—the first standard of the NSF—which emphasises the importance of shaping hospital services around the child, and an emerging-findings consultation document setting out the direction of travel for the NSF. A draft standard for child protection was included with the documents for consultation.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. Will she expand on it by saying when the rest of the framework will be published and how it will fit into the overall NHS Plan?

Yes, my Lords. The full NSF will be published in 2004. It is the most complex of the national service frameworks. It includes eight working groups covering health and ill-health of children and all aspects of care. More than 300 different stakeholders are involved, and a great deal of hard work has already gone into producing the first standard.

Essentially, the framework offers a new way of looking at not only services, but children, and will mean that NHS and care staff are looking for new ways of approaching their working, and even for new attitudes towards children. It fits into the NHS Plan—it is central to it—and will benefit from other measures such as emergency care and improving patient access, which will also lift the NHS.

My Lords, how do these proposals fit in with the Laming conclusions and the establishment of multi-agency children's trusts at local level?

My Lords, it is important that we get all this together and that it is consistent. The NSF has a working party which is looking at vulnerable children. That includes children in care. As regards the Laming report, certain action has already been taken. I refer, for example, to improved guidance. The response to the report will be published soon. We are waiting for that in relation to the Green Paper on children at risk to help inform the NSF. Therefore, it is extremely important that all this works together.

My Lords, there has been an increase in the incidence of diabetes in children, especially diabetes number two. Will such children fall under the NSF for children, or that for diabetes, or both?

My Lords, the beauty of the NSF for children is that it covers all conditions in all children, including the wellbeing of children. We are therefore looking at healthy children, too. They will certainly fall under the external working group that is looking at ill health in children and also under the diabetes framework.

My Lords, can the Minister be clearer about the parameters of the national service framework? She hinted that it involves not just the NHS but many other issues, too. Does not that cross over into education and so forth? Can she be clearer about that?

My Lords, as the framework deals with wellbeing as well as health, it involves the care of children. Of the eight external working groups, some are looking at vulnerable children. That involves children in care and young carers. Obviously, a good deal of work is being done on ways of improving care services to those young people and that means working closely with the Department for Education and Science as well.

My Lords, how will the framework address the needs of children with disabilities? Will it be focused on the needs of the children or will there be cost constraints?

My Lords, an external working group is dealing with children with disabilities. It has already made its report and it is on the website. That is informing the standard for improvement which will emerge.

Furthermore, the hospital standard, which was published in April, contains a good section on children with disabilities. The particularly impressive aspect of it is that it uses accessible language to express the importance of treating the child as a human being and of treating the whole child. It is also important to involve the parents in becoming the carers and the experts around the child.

My Lords, in case other noble Lords are as ignorant as I am, will the Minister tell the House precisely what is wrong with the National Health Service treatment of children that is making this provision necessary? What will the overall cost be and what is currently happening?

My Lords, I do not believe that there is much wrong with the way we are treating children. We have expert and excellent services for children in the NHS, but the national service frameworks enable us to look across the whole provision of care and see how we can improve joint working, co-ordination and processes and investigate the organisation of staffing and the development of staff roles. They enable us to look at improving and raising standards so that they are more effective and coherent.

My Lords, will the Minister recognise in what she has said that while there are many good services for children there are huge gaps in provision as regards, for instance, children's mental health and the workforce needed to provide that service? Does she agree that the national service framework is an opportunity for us to think more strategically and carefully in the long term about how to ensure that our children receive the vital input from good quality mental health services?

Will she also explain to the House what progress has been made in mapping mental health services for children? Can she confirm that that mapping will be a continuing process so that we can be well advised on the availability of and access to child and adolescent mental health services?

My Lords, the noble Earl put it very well. Of course we can do much better, and mental health services for children is one such area. It is a relatively neglected area, which is why we are investing £250 million in it over the next three years. The crucial issue in improving the service is to improve the manpower. The noble Earl is right in indicating that we need to develop a new approach to planning the workforce. We are mapping mental health services and will continue to do so as part of our national strategy. But we need also to find new ways for staff to work, earlier identification and more effective services. We have set up a group of experts specifically to look at those issues and the practical measures that can be taken in terms of training and recruitment at all levels.

My Lords, how does this National Framework Service for Children fit in with other initiatives which are already under way? The Minister mentioned the Green Paper on children at risk.

My Lords, April 10th was a good day for children and it shows how much we are doing. Apart from the Green Paper, we have all kinds of separate initiatives; for example, Sure Start, a children's taskforce looking at a great deal across health and the action programme on inequalities in health, which is extremely important in terms of improving services for children. Much is therefore happening and I hope that we shall see it all coming together.

My Lords, during our recent debate on the trafficking of children, the Minister's noble friend admitted that more than 70 children have disappeared from the care of West Sussex social services. Can she tell us any more about the fate of those children? In the national framework, are the Government looking at this most vulnerable group of children to ensure that the existing inadequate provision is not further weakened?

My Lords, I shall have to write to the noble Lord on the follow-up to the trafficking of children. Unaccompanied asylum seeking children will certainly be covered by the external working group that is looking at vulnerable children and children in special circumstances.

My Lords, in the light of my noble friend's antepenultimate answer, will she be good enough to say what additional resources and funding will be provided to implement the NSF?

My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is asking about mental health services. If I am wrong, perhaps he will correct me. Yes, additional money is being put into mental health services; £250 million is being provided for child and adolescent mental health services which will be used to develop, for example, early intervention programmes and improved training. We hope that we shall be able to shorten some of the delays that are problematic in terms of the provision of psychiatric services for adolescents.

My Lords, is the Minister aware that what she said about the wishes of parents in regard to the education and future of their children being respected will be very welcome to the parents of many mentally handicapped children who find that their wishes are totally overridden by local social services, local authorities and others? Often when parents want special schools for their children they are directed towards mainstream schooling against the wishes of those parents.

My Lords, throughout the NSF great effort is being made to consult children and parents; for example, the National Children's Bureau has set up 14 consultative opportunities to listen to children.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Further to the answer by the Baroness Scotland of Asthal on 19th May (HL Deb, col. 495), whether the Prime Minister's future statement will include the issue of whether there will be a House of Lords reform Bill in this Parliament.

My Lords, as I said in answer to the noble Lord's previous Question, the Government are now considering their response to the report from the Joint Committee of both Houses on the way forward on reform of your Lordships' House. We shall have to address the question and timing of any further reform Bill as part of our deliberations. We hope to be able to publish our response within the normal two-month deadline

My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend for having tabled this Question again. She did not answer, I am sure inadvertently, some of the points put to her. At the time she told the House that the Prime Minister was to make a statement shortly—that was three weeks ago. Perhaps she could define "shortly". Is it fair to assume that we shall not have a House of Lords reform Bill this Session, or even the next? In those circumstances, when can we expect to see a list of new working Peers?

My Lords, I note that the noble Lord now asks me four questions. As on the previous occasion, he seeks to tempt me into error. Let me answer as directly as I am able. First, "shortly" is, as "shortly" says, as soon as reasonably practicable. Secondly, whether it will be in this Session or next I am not able to say. All I can say is that these matters are being given anxious consideration. They will be addressed in the response that I know that your Lordships anxiously await.

My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that your Lordships' House contains many Peers and Peeresses accustomed to various kinds of responsibility such that cannot be found in another place and that, if we were to be democratised, we would become a mere microcosm of another place?

My Lords, first, it is our view that this House forms a very important part of the democracy. We are already democratised to that extent. Secondly, it is right that the Peers in this House perform a very wonderful function. We have the advantage of Peeresses visiting the House at certain times, but currently none of them sits on any of the Benches of the House.

My Lords, I wonder whether I shall have any greater chance of tempting the noble Baroness than the silver-tongued noble Lord, Lord Barnett. Does the Minister accept that at least we all agreed on one matter in the reform committee and in debates both in this Chamber and in another place; namely, that this House has too many Members?

Oh!

My Lords, what would be the point of fattening us up further and making additional appointments at this stage in defiance of the clearly expressed opposition of the House of Commons to an all-appointed upper House?

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says about there being too many Members. There are those who say that this House is a lean, mean working machine and not one Member will be lost to us. Of course, we have to see what the final resolution will be and the recommendations that will be made. But a tragedy for this House is that in the past two years we have lost 49 of our Members who sat on all Benches. They are sorely missed and there are many who say that they should be replaced.

My Lords, if the Government are genuinely considering the report from the Joint Committee, particularly in respect of the recommendation that a statutory appointments commission of some kind should be established, why have the Government recently renewed the appointment of the chairman of the present appointments commission?

My Lords, I have no confirmation of that matter. I shall repeat what I have said on a number of occasions. The Government are obliged, in the normal way, to give a response to the committee's report within the average time of two months. We shall use our very best endeavours to do just that. I am afraid that we shall all have to await the outcome of that response.

My Lords, given the weight of legislation that now arrives in this House from another place completely unscrutinised and very often even undebated, is it not time for the Government to consider seriously a reform of the House of Commons, particularly as regards the number of Members of Parliament and whether it can still be justified to have over 650 Members sitting in that House?

My Lords, thankfully, I can say that that is not a matter for me.

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware that earlier in the year I introduced a Bill that was—I am sure she will agree—designed to be helpful to the Government. Will that Bill have the Government's support?

My Lords, I have to reply in the way in which I have replied the whole afternoon. Those are matters that the Government will take into account. We shall take those matters into account and respond when we respond—shortly.

My Lords, as the Minister has told your Lordships that Her Majesty's Government are giving these matters anxious consideration, can she say what is the nature of that anxiety?

My Lords, to do that which is right for this country. We hope that we shall discharge our duty in the exemplary manner in which we have done so far.

My Lords, if the Government still do not know the way forward, can the noble Baroness say why they started down the road in the first place?

My Lords, we have known the way forward. It is right to say that this House is now in good order. An argument has raged backwards and forwards in this House and elsewhere as to what the next step is. That matter is under consideration. The committee has helped us and we are deliberating on our response, which, as is quite clear from the debate today, your Lordships' House is most anxious to hear. I am sure that all those responsible will take keen note of this debate.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have concluded that referenda are in principle unsuitable for major decisions on European Union matters.

My Lords, there is no decision in principle about all European Union matters. That the next European treaty will be dealt with through our system of parliamentary democracy is entirely consistent with the way in which all previous EU treaties have been laid before Parliament and subjected to vigorous scrutiny and debate by Parliament before ratification. I look forward to that debate.

Yes, my Lords, quite. I think that noble Lords will share my view that it will he difficult to forget the pained look on the Prime Minister's face yesterday and his anxious consideration as he listened to the Chancellor put pro-euro trimmings on to an anti-euro speech.

In that context, does the Minister accept that, whatever happened in the past, the new European convention to be announced this Friday potentially has greater political implications for this country than the debate on the five economic tests? On that basis, does she accept the view that we need an extensive public debate on the issue, not just a lot of propaganda from either side or phobic fury? Because of that, will the Minister at least keep an open mind about the possibility, if there is to be a paving Bill for a referendum, that the referendum should first be on the new European convention and then on joining the euro?

My Lords, I cannot agree that the political implications of the discussions going on at the convention are of greater moment for us than a decision about the euro. The euro is a once-in-a-lifetime decision. The discussions in the convention at present have not yet been completed. We hope that they will be completed towards the end of next week and that the convention findings will then be published at the end of next week. But, as the noble Lord will know, thereafter there will be an IGC, at which a unanimous decision will have to be taken about the way forward, and, after that, the drafting of any treaty.

The noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, has got rather ahead of himself on the issue. We cannot judge what the implications will be, first, until the convention reports, secondly, until an IGC unanimously decides the way forward, and, thirdly, until there is ratification on a treaty. It would be sensible to look at the issues then.

My Lords, nobody wants to get ahead of themselves. We can all understand the Government's reluctance to commit themselves to a referendum on the convention and its proposals at this stage. But why has the door to a referendum on possible constitutional developments been closed completely for all time? I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could explain that mystery. Why is it being closed when it is almost certain that there will be constitutional implications of some kind from the convention, when eight other member states will have referenda, and when Brussels officials say that the forthcoming constitutional treaty will be more important than Amsterdam, Nice and Maastricht combined? Why is the door being closed so soon?

My Lords, I deliberately did not close the door on all possible changes ever. That is why I said in the first sentence of my Answer that there was no decision in principle about all European Union matters. But I must say to the noble Lord that this Government today are as reluctant as the party opposite was when it was in government to have a referendum on the Single European Act or the Maastricht Treaty.

I have been subject to a little insomnia recently, and I have done some very interesting night-time reading. I was reading a biography, from which I shall quote:

"For all the rhetoric of sovereignty and nationhood, by her"—

that is, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—

"agreement to the documents that were to be enshrined in the Single European Act she transferred more sovereignty to the European Community (as it was then known) than anyone has done before or since".

The Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary did not say that; it was the former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Heseltine, now the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine.

My Lords, leaving aside the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary states that the correct plural of "referendum" is "referendums" and not "referenda", which is a gerundive rather than a gerund, did my noble friend hear the interview given by Kenneth Clarke on "The World at One" on 27th May? He said:

"If parliament can't analyse the ultimate version of this treaty, which we all knew was going to come once we enlarged the union, then parliament isn't much use for anything".

Is that not entirely consistent with what the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, said in his interview in the Financial Times a couple of days later? He said:

"Referendums should be a rare exception if we are not to weaken still further our system of parliamentary democracy".

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his guidance on the use of "referenda" and "referendums". I did not hear "The World at One" on 27th May. I suspect that I was preparing for Questions in your Lordships' House on that occasion. I agree with what Mr Clarke and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, said. We have a sophisticated system of parliamentary democracy in this country. It has been my experience, when debating in your Lordships' House the treaties that have gone through—the Nice Treaty and, before that, the Amsterdam Treaty—that they attract a great deal of very knowledgeable discussion. I believe that it is through that parliamentary debate that we shall find a way forward on any possible future treaty coming out of an IGC.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is no longer satisfactory to contemplate the prospect of a referendum vis-à-vis the convention in isolation, and that it must be considered in context? Is it not true that the political context in this country of matters relating to sovereignty in the European Union is of profound public mistrust about the manner in which Parliament has dealt, and continues to deal, with those matters? Is it not fair to say that there is a constant sniping match, a partisan battle, going on between the Conservative and Labour parties about who has done worst vis-à-vis the holding of referendums? Will not the Government please seriously contemplate how public trust in government in this country can be restored, perhaps by having a referendum on the convention, in view of the crucial importance of the issues to the future of this country in Europe?

My Lords, I am bound to say that, if the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, thinks that a debate on a referendum would of itself stop parties arguing about who has done better and worst, I am afraid that we live in very different political worlds. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, was right in saying that there must be a public debate. There should be a public debate about all matters European. Indeed, that is what the convention is being designed to do. It is why we have had parliamentary representatives as well as government ones. We have been well represented in this House in that respect. Doing this through our parliamentary democracy on the basis, in the other House, of those who are elected, and, in this House, of people with considerable experience, is the right way forward for this country.

My Lords, can the Minister help me by saying what are the political tests that the Government decided to apply when considering whether the British people have their say on any question? We know that referenda will be allowed for local mayors and regional assemblies. The Minister said that the EMU was a once-in-a-lifetime change. Can we take it, therefore, that if the European convention's work results in a once-in-a-lifetime change, there will then be a referendum? What are the criteria? For some of us, it is beginning to look as if there is a political test of whether the Government get the voters to say what they want to hear.

No, my Lords. The question is whether the issues that we are confronting significantly change how the people of this country are governed. That is the political test. It is appropriate that the resulting new treaty is scrutinised vigorously by Parliament in the way that I have indicated. In contrast, the noble Lord raises the issues of devolution for Scotland and Wales, or perhaps the creation of regional elected assemblies or mayors. Those are changes in how this country is governed by putting in an extra layer of government; therefore, it was deemed appropriate that there should be regional or local referenda about whether that was appropriate.

As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, pointed out last week, on the question of the euro, the Conservative Party also said that, had it been in government when the euro question would have been considered, that is the view that it would have taken and there would have been a referendum then. On this question, we do not believe that the outcome of an IGC will fundamentally affect how the people of this country are governed. It will certainly have no more effect than any of the other treaties on which the other side of the House did not hold a referendum.

My Lords, would my noble friend not find it much more helpful if, rather than call for a referendum on an outcome that is as yet unknown because the IGC has not yet begun, those with so many views to express on the process of ratification said something about the substance once in a while?

My Lords, I believe that that would be enormously helpful. I would point out that, of the many opportunities that have been put forward in order to allow Members to do so, not all Members have been as enthusiastic as they might have been to take up those opportunities.

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the worse than expected results announced by British Energy on 3rd June will affect the rescue package which the Government have in mind.

My Lords, the restructuring plan announced on 28th November last year is British Energy's plan, not the Government's. The bulk of British Energy's reported loss announced on 3rd June is made up of write-downs in the value of its generation plants. The write-downs are based by the company on the expected future cash flows of the business and consequently have already been taken into account when considering the ongoing viability of the business. Significant progress has been made but the proposed restructuring remains subject to uncertainties, and, therefore, the Government remain prepared for administration.

My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that during the passage of the Electricity (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill both these Benches and the Conservative Benches expressed concern that the liabilities taken over by the Government from British Energy should be, as far as possible, limited. and that the provision of other support should be used for the purposes defined. As the noble Lord gave certain assurances during the passage of the Bill, will he confirm that they still stand in spite of the recent worsened results?

My Lords, I give that assurance. As these are essentially write-downs of fixed assets, they do not affect the liabilities.

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, reminds us that it is only two months since we took the Bill through this House. The Government were at the time quite confident that the sums they were prepared to lend to the company would be sufficient to see it through, provided that a restructuring was approved by the competition authorities and the European Union. Is it not now looking much less likely that the competition authorities will smile upon that help as an acceptable state aid given the enormous opposition from many other people active in the electricity market?

My Lords, no. The situation on state aid is no different from that which we expected, namely, that the Commission would formally investigate and that it would probably take nearly to the 18-month time limit. That is proceeding as we expected.

My Lords, does the Minister concede that one of the difficulties in the sale of Amergen, which was required in the restructuring, is that potential purchasers are aware from numerous government statements that that is a key part of the financial support scheme? British Energy in that respect is at an enormous negotiating disadvantage. Do the Government see any way around that? Do they have any ideas about what should be done given that that company was always going to be required to be sold?

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point. That is why, even though the deadline of 30th June when the company thought it would sell Amergen has passed—well, it has not passed but it looks unlikely at this point that British Energy will enter into an agreement by that time—we have not insisted on it. That makes for a different situation where the company is not being required to sell under any conditions but has some latitude which will strengthen its bargaining power.

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House.

Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Palmer set down for tomorrow shall he limited to four hours and that in the name of the Lord Cobbold to two hours.—(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

moved the amendment:

Page 2, line 1, after "lay" insert "the Code or"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a small tidying-up Bill and a small tidying-up amendment. It will not have escaped those of your Lordships who have been perusing the Bill avidly that Clause 1(3) deals with making a code of practice for horse-drawn vehicles and alterations to them. However., the corollary of that is that the Secretary of State must lay the alterations before both Houses of Parliament. It would be sensible that he should lay both the code of practice and the alterations before Parliament. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 14th May be approved [20th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I apologise as I have pulled off the sticker where it said "speech" in my file, just as I was clipping the file to find where I am starting. We need a better quality of sticker in the department. We have obviously been economising with government money.

I am satisfied that the draft regulations are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. They form a small, but nonetheless essential, part of the legislative framework for pension credit.

Regulation 2 amends the Social Security and Child Support (Decisions and Appeals) Regulations 1999 to provide, in relation to pension credit, that there shall be no right of appeal against decisions made pursuant to Regulations 4D, 4E and 26B of the Claims and Payments Regulations. Regulation 4D specifies that a claim for pension credit need not be made in writing but if it is, the claim must be made on an authorised form or in such other written form as the Secretary of State accepts as sufficient in any particular case; and, is not valid unless a written statement of the claimant's circumstances, provided by the Secretary of State, is approved by the claimant.

Regulation 4E provides that a person may make a claim for pension credit at any time within the period of four months before the reaching the age of 60.

Regulation 26B prescribes the time and manner of payments of state pension credit.

The requirements as to what constitutes a valid claim for pension credit purposes are less prescriptive than those which currently apply to income support under Regulation 4 of the Claims and Payments Regulations. Most notably, Regulation 4D does not include a requirement that supporting information and evidence must be included with the claim before it can be considered to be valid. The absence of a right of appeal against decisions regarding the validity of claims for pension credit is in line with the position regarding appeals against decisions concerning the validity of claims for other for benefits across the benefit system.

I emphasise that the decisions in question do not concern the amount of money to which a person is entitled—that remains subject to appeal, or the valid date. A claimant's income or capital and the amount that they receive and from when remain open to appeal. However, if a person failed to send in the form, or to leave substantial areas of questions unanswered, they would not have a valid claim, and that would not be an appealable decision.

Regulation 3 amends the Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit (Decisions and Appeals) Regulations 2001 to preclude a second right of appeal where a local authority uses the Pension Service's calculation or estimate of income for housing or council tax Benefit purposes. That would not, of course, affect the original right of appeal against the original pension credit decision. The rationale is that it would be simply unfair to allow people who claim housing benefit or council tax benefit a second right of appeal against the original pension credit decision regarding their income. As your Lordships will know, the decision for pension credit purposes for income is passported, so to speak, over to the housing authorities. That is why we do not need two parallel paths of appeal.

The regulations are essentially technical, and I commend them to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 14th May be approved [20th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Baroness on this occasion, as on many others, for a clear exposition—despite being initially lost for words—of the issues involved in the regulations. More generally, as far as concerns work and pensions matters, it is extraordinary that the Minister for Pensions, who was whisked away into a Labour Party job, has, months afterwards, still not been replaced. One can assume only that the Prime Minister can think of no one in the House of Commons who might reasonably fulfil that task. That being so, there is a strong case, given the noble Baroness's enormous expertise in these matters and the helpful attitude that she always adopts, for moving the job to this House.

I have one or two questions for the noble Baroness. The first is about consultation on the regulations. We are told that consultation has taken place with organisations appearing to the Secretary of State to be representative of the authorities concerned, but we are not given a clear indication of how widespread it has been. Similarly, we are told that there has been consultation with regard to the Council on Tribunals. The explanatory memorandum explains why that was necessary, but we are not told which issues were referred or what conclusions were reached as a result of the consultation with the Council on Tribunals. Is the council now satisfied that the regulations are appropriate?

We are told that the Government have agreed with the Social Security Advisory Committee that the proposals need not be referred to the committee for further consultation. Every time that the issue of the Social Security Advisory Committee comes up, it seems to be the case that it or the Government—or both—have decided that it need not consider the matter. I have great difficulty in remembering any occasion since I have been in this post on which it has been consulted on anything. The committee seems to have an uncertain role in such matters. Perhaps I misjudge the situation.

Other than that, I have only one or two points to make, and I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could explain them to us. We are told that Regulation 2 does not contain a right of appeal because that is the case for regulations in other parts of the social security framework. That does not explain, in the first place, why there is no such appropriate arrangement.

With regard to Regulation 3, we are told that there is no right of appeal at the stage at which housing benefits and other benefits are considered because the decision on the amount of income and the amount of capital that is applicable in the case has already been made by the Secretary of State at the stage at which the claim was made for council tax benefit. To what extent would it be clear to the claimant that, if he wished to dispute the income or capital assessment, he must do so at the stage at which the claim is initially made and will not be able to do at the stage at which the local authority is concerned with the housing benefit situation? There seems to be a case for not necessarily saying that someone could not come back at the latter stage, when the housing benefit was being considered. The individual concerned may not fully understand the procedures, which are not as simple for claimants as one might wish.

Other than that, I think that the noble Baroness made things clear, and I have nothing to add. On balance, the amendments are, as she says, technical and sensible.

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, in his assessment of the position in the Cabinet and in his comments about the noble Baroness. I add my weight to her campaign for a better quality of stationery in the future.

I shall concentrate on many of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, but shall deal with them slightly differently. My questions are coloured by the fact that, as part of my work—I declare an interest as an employee of Age Concern—I see information and advice officers struggling to get to grips with the forthcoming introduction of the pension credit. Therefore, I was particularly interested in what the noble Baroness said about the lack of a right of appeal with regard to what is widely acknowledged to be a complex form.

I recall that we deliberated at some length on the original legislation, and the noble Baroness said that she was confident that a great deal of the uptake would be electronic. I had some concerns about that at the time, and I spoke accordingly. In view of what has been said of late about the department's computers, I was right then. I am even more concerned about it now. Can the noble Baroness shed some light on the extent to which computerisation and training of claimants for computerisation has been taken forward?

The noble Baroness was right about Regulation 3 and the fact that there should be no right to appeal twice. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, I would like to know what will be done to ensure that users know at the point at which a pension credit decision is made that there will almost certainly be implications for housing benefit and council tax benefit and what they will be able to dispute.

As usual, I was interested in the issue of consultation. According to the Library notes, there was no consultation on Regulation 2. In view of some of the issues that I mentioned, I would like to know what consultation there has been with prospective users on the matters. Finally, can the noble Baroness, in her pitch for a new job, go slightly further than the dry matter of regulations and say something about the training programme for the administration of the pension credit forms? It seems to be causing widespread concern among practitioners.

My Lords, I am glad that the regulations have been welcomed today. As the comments made have been finely honed, I shall respond to them directly.

It would be fair to say that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, basically raised two questions: one about the consultation exercise and one about the provision of information to claimants for housing benefit under Regulation 3. On the question of consultation, I can say that the Council on Tribunals was content with our regulations and had no comment. The noble Lord also raised a general point about how often the Social Security Advisory Committee was consulted. It is required to be involved if regulations are coming into the public domain at least six months after the legislative procedure has completed. Partly as a result of pressure from the noble Lord, I have been able, on behalf of my department, to bring regulations before the House while legislation was going through. That has obviated some of what the committee has clone in the past, and it could be said that previous administrations may have been more dilatory about bringing forward regulations for scrutiny.

There was a substantive point about the Social Security Advisory Committee. It shared the noble Lord's concern that claimants might not appreciate that the Pension Service's assessment of income and capital could have an effect on their entitlement to HB and CTB. That concern was rightly emphasised today by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. He is right to say that it is important that pensioners know that that is where the decision has been taken that, for example, having capital of £16,500 might rule them out for HB purposes. The department has undertaken to include warning of that and full information about it in the pension credit notification as soon as is practicable. Obviously, I will do my best to keep an eye on it and make sure that the information is clear and unambiguous, so that people realise that it is a passported statement of information for the next set of regulations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, made various points, but the substantive point, I think, related to our degree of confidence about the introduction of the pension credit system in October. She was worried about the word "electronic". I believe that "electronic" includes telephone. We are expecting people to apply originally by telephone. We do not expect there to be—I hope that I am not wrong—any particular issues that we have not foreseen as regards the introduction of pension credit. First, we are not using a new computer; we are using a tried and tested existing computer. Secondly, we are having a graduated take-on approach. Thirdly, the pension credit is a simple system; it is not a more complex system. Given all of that, we believe that we have anticipated where there may be the inevitable problems associated with the development and extension of an important service to many people.

As regards the telephone service, we are expecting that up until October people will apply by telephone. They will still then receive a written confirmation of that exchange which they then sign. So there is written confirmation. We found from research that elderly people, in particular if they do not have family members to support them, prefer discussion over the phone. It is the best way of ensuring that one has the relevant information on the form. In the past, MIG forms which have been filled out on paper have had to go to and fro because the elderly person has not understood the import of a specific question. The system is designed to be helpful. We have no reason to think that it is not. However, if the organisation with which the noble Baroness is, rightly, proudly associated perceives concerns, I am sure they will be brought to our attention.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me to intervene. Is it proposed that the individual will be told by telephone the calculation of their income and capital which will then go on the form? It will be difficult for many people to understand that.

My Lords, I understand that the information will be discussed with the elderly person on the telephone. That will come through to the department which will then send it out. It may be able to give immediate guidance on whether someone obviously is or is not eligible. But the claim will come when the person has received a written statement of the agreed circumstances. That will constitute the claim. However, the first step is by telephone.

From October, pensioners need not go through that telephone stage if they do not wish to do so. Anyone currently on MIG will go through automatically. The steps for the savings credit will be strange because they are new. People will have had an opportunity for discussion on whether or not they may be eligible and to understand concepts such as income, capital and so on. I have no reason to think that it is not the most supportive way to reduce the hassle factor and extend the reach of what I think will be an important benefit.

The noble Baroness pressed me about staff training. Again, if she has any worries, I ask her to let me know. I have had no suggestion—but it is early days—that staff training is inadequate or incomplete. Nor have I any worries at present about the adequacy or otherwise of the computer system or the forms. We are working closely with Age Concern, Help the Aged, CAB and other organisations. We have a fairly long lead-in period between now and October. If problems begin to emerge, I trust that we will have in place the proper responses to overcome those difficulties. I hope that your Lordships will accept the regulations.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 8th May be approved [20th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the stickers on these forms are rather more securely in place, I am happy to say.

I move these draft regulations which implement provisions of the European Community's Employment Directive 2000/78 so far as it deals with disability discrimination. The regulations would amend and extend provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 concerning discrimination against disabled people in the fields of work and vocational training. I emphasise that that is what the directive is concerned with. They also make consequential amendments to the Disability Rights Commission Act 1999 and other legislation.

As I explain what the regulations do, it may be helpful if I cross-refer back to the original text. Unlike the previous measure where there just two regulations, we have 30 here. Noble Lords may have to turn many pages. It will sound more technical than it need but I thought that that might be the most helpful approach.

While the draft regulations implement the disability provisions of a European directive, I remind the House that many of the main requirements were foreshadowed by the Disability Rights Task Force. The task force's work assisted the Government during negotiations on the directive. It helped us to identify those elements of the DDA, such as reasonable adjustments, that worked and needed to be retained; and those elements, such as current employment exemptions, which needed to change.

The draft regulations implement the majority of the disability provisions of the directive. I shall later state what is not included. If approved, they will bring into force those provisions in October 2004, more than two years in advance of the final date required by the directive. By going through this procedure, we are ensuring that a major swathe is securely banked in our legislative system by October 2004. It is good news in terms of employment and vocational training for disabled people.

I can also confirm that in my view the draft regulations are compatible with the UK's obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights.

The draft regulations make a number of significant and far-reaching changes to the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 which will have a marked effect on society and disabled people. They repeal Section 7 of the DDA so as to end the current exemption of small employers. That is the biggest single change in the regulations. Over 1 million small employers will be brought into coverage of the DDA. Employees and people seeking work in those firms will be protected if they have, or have had, a disability. That is Regulation 7.

Secondly, the regulations bring within the scope of the DDA excluded occupations. Groups of occupations which have not so far enjoyed the protection of the DDA come in. We are covering many occupations such as the police, barristers and Scottish advocates, partners in business partnerships and persons who are not technically employees because they hold an office, including people whom the Government appoint to public offices. Regulation 5 deals with office holders. Regulation 6 deals with partnership. Regulation 8 deals with barristers and advocates. Regulation 24 relates to non-Home Department police forces, prison officers and fire-fighters. Regulation 25 relates to national police force. Regulation 27 deals with employment on board ships, aircraft or hovercraft. If any noble Lord wishes, I can give the cross-references back to the DDA legislation but I do not wish to complicate matters further.

Those are the two major changes: the extension of the DDA so that all employers are covered; and the extension to a range of occupations. The only significant exclusion now is the Armed Forces—an issue raised by your Lordships on several occasions.

The draft regulations make other significant changes. They outlaw direct discrimination, including prejudicial treatment of disabled people and most blanket bans. But employers need not employ anyone who is not competent, capable or available to perform the essential functions of the job in question after any necessary reasonable adjustment has been made. Obviously, we are not talking about the usual criticisms relating to blind bus drivers, and so forth. We are talking about people being able, competent and capable of performing the essential functions of the job.

Regulation 4 defines discrimination. Regulation 5 applies it to employers, contract workers and office holders. Later regulations apply it to other areas of employment and training. The regulations also end the current DDA approach that allows an employer to justify a failure to make a reasonable adjustment. Those are Regulations 4 and 5. What is new is that they bring practical work experience placements within the scope of the DDA. This is an important constituent, for example, of the New Deal for younger and older people—that is, practical work experience. Under Regulation 13, it now comes within the scope of the DDA.

Regulation 15 extends the DDA's protection to claims by former employees about discrimination arising from former employment. The point about that is that someone may be seeking to appeal against what in popular language we might consider to be constructive dismissal. Equally, if his employment has finished, it would be absurd if his right of appeal terminated with that employment. Therefore, there is a shadow effect that issues relating to previous employment may still be available and covered. Hence, we have Regulation 15.

The regulations ensure that advertisements that indicate an intention to discriminate against disabled people are unlawful. They also ensure that the DRC will be able to bring an action against those who place the advertisements for publication. That is the effect of Regulations 15 and 16. The regulations also introduce into the DDA specific provisions to ensure that harassment against disabled people is unlawful—again, this is new. Regulation 4 defines harassment and subsequent regulations dealing with specific types of occupation make it unlawful; for example, Regulation 5 applies to employment, contract workers and office holders.

The regulations also extend Part 2 of the DDA to "qualifications bodies"—namely, those which can confer a professional or trade qualification, such as the General Medical Council and the Law Society. In earlier discussions with, I believe, DRC, the phrase "qualifying bodies" was often used. We have now replaced that with "qualifications bodies" in order to make it more clear.

Given that description, I turn now to what the draft regulations do not do. The draft regulations are not a poor man's disability Bill. They are a further step towards meeting our manifesto commitment to extend rights and opportunities for disabled people. Because they are made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, they have the same status as primary legislation. They deliver the same outcomes, but they are securely bound in our law with effect from October 2004.

As I say, there are two important issues that the draft regulations do not cover. First, they do not implement the directive in so far as it applies to disability discrimination in occupational pensions schemes by trustees or managers of those schemes. It does not apply to occupational pensions. Adverse selection or even, in commercial terms, positive selection in terms of determining annuity rates would be an obvious example. We will lay separate regulations later this year on that issue after we have had further discussions with the Disability Rights Commission and the pensions industry. Both sides—the DRC and the pensions industry—accept that these are complicated measures which require a great deal of additional work. As far as I am aware, there appears to be no criticism of the Government for exempting that area of coverage—yet.

Secondly, Ministers in the Department for Education and Skills intend to bring forward separate proposals for regulations to implement any changes required by the directive in relation to Part 4 of the Disability Discrimination Act. These would be brought into place after the duties placed on educational institutions by the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001 have been fully implemented in September 2005. The second exclusion is those areas that overlap with and need to be contextualised by the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001. Again, I think that your Lordships will understand the point of that.

In conclusion, the draft regulations introduce meaningful and worthwhile changes to the employment provisions of the DDA. Every small employer in the country will be covered. More than 1 million more employers will be included in the DDA. Seven million additional jobs and 600,000 disabled people in those jobs will be protected. This is a major advance in rights at work for disabled people.

The draft regulations are the next step towards meeting our manifesto commitment to extend rights and opportunities for disabled people. Further significant changes should flow from our draft disability Bill that we expect to publish later this year. As I said at the start, we have discussed the need to improve civil rights—above all, in the field of employment—for disabled people on many occasions. These draft regulations do precisely that. I hope that they will be warmly welcomed by the House today. I commend the order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 8th May be approved [20th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the helpful and wonderfully clear way in which she has introduced these regulations, and taken us through the detail. I welcome them enormously, although, as the noble Baroness has already said, I fear that they are not as comprehensive in scope as they need to be to implement the EU employment directive in full. I understand that the Disability Rights Commission says that the occupational pension scheme is a very complicated area. I welcome the assurance that the noble Baroness will try to sort something out in that respect. I look forward, with anticipation, to the DfES regulations.

The removal of the small employers exemption—Regulation 7—and extension of the DDA to a much wider range of employment situations by October 2004 is to be very strongly welcomed. I shall confine my remarks to two areas that have been of particular interest to me—namely, the qualifications bodies and arrangements for disabled people in work placement schemes.

I am delighted to see that the regulations extend the coverage to qualifications bodies. Disabled students may currently be denied the opportunity to undertake a particular course of study by education institutions because of hurdles erected by some professional bodies. That is quite wrong, as the noble Baroness said. It is absolutely right that these qualification bodies should be required to facilitate opportunities for disabled students and to justify objectively any competence standards they may set. The provisions are complex and would almost warrant their own code of practice as SKILL—the National Bureau for Students with Disabilities, of which I am president—proposed in its response to the first draft of the regulations. I believe that I saw the noble Baroness almost nodding her head in agreement at the complication of the matter.

The wide definition of "qualifications body" seems to suggest that examining boards will be covered by the provisions when awarding a GCSE in maths, for example, which is an essential qualification for so many different professions, particularly teaching. Can the Minister confirm that this is the case? I should like to ask a further question for clarification on the extremely welcome extension of the DDA to disabled people on work placements. Can the Minister explain why new Sections 14C and 14D of the DDA specify that the work placement must be part of a vocational training scheme to be covered by the DDA? The Disability Rights Commission believes this to be too narrow an interpretation of the directive which applies to occupation and vocational training in the broadest sense.

I am concerned that the wording used in the regulations would exclude disabled people undertaking work experience placements, as part of the New Deal, from the protection of the DDA. Can the Minister explain why the provisions have been cast so narrowly and clarify what types of vocational training programmes will be covered? For example, would a two-week placement as part of a life skills course for people with learning disabilities be included in the provision? The Minister will remember that this House previously expressed the view that all work placements should be covered by the DDA—indeed, we passed an amendment to that effect last year to the Disability Discrimination (Amendment) Bill. introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Ashley of Stoke.

In conclusion, in many respects these regulations cannot come soon enough, but there remain the one or two issues that the noble Baroness mentioned in relation to employment protection and equal career opportunities which I look forward to being satisfactorily addressed in the near future. In the mean time, I warmly welcome the regulations.

My Lords, I have one regret to express about these regulations—that is, that it has taken so long for the Government to get around to them. It was always scandalous that millions of workers should be excluded from the protection of the Disability Discrimination Act. One million employers and some 7 million workers were excluded from such protection. The Conservative government made a great mistake when they made the provision for any firm employing fewer than 20 workers to be excluded from the provisions of the Act. The Labour Government brought that figure down to 15, missing a great chance. They acted too timidly by making it 15 instead of zero. All this time has been wasted. It has been perfectly legal to discriminate against vulnerable workers. There is no excuse for that and no reason why the Government should not have acted before.

Having said that, they have now acted, and I congratulate my noble friend because we have been at cross purposes on this issue for a very long time. I suggested changing the regulations. I am not saying that we are clashing on this, but the Government did not do what we wanted in good time. The All-Party Disability Group will be delighted that these provisions have now been brought forward by my noble friend.

I warmly congratulate the Government. The regulations will be a great relief to millions of workers and they will have an enormous beneficial effect.

My Lords, I, too, very much welcome these regulations. Within the limits of the powers conferred by Section 2 of the European Communities Act 1972, to which I shall return in a moment, they are exceptionally well drafted.

The Minister will know of my main criticism, in which I am not alone. I was the sponsor of the single Equality Bill, which went through the House, and which received commendation from more than 220 Members of Parliament in an Early-Day Motion. It brought together the most modern, coherent and accessible legislation on disability discrimination as one Bill.

I shall continue to believe that the Government made an important strategic mistake in deciding to proceed using subordinate legislation under the European Communities Act 1972, instead of introducing a primary Bill that could have dealt in one go with the imperfections in the Disability Discrimination Act. Unfortunately, the Government did not take that decision. There was a poverty of ambition and perhaps a lack of basic skill in the decision-taking process.

Although the regulations are very well conceived within the tightly boned corset of European Community law, the Government will have to legislate again and again in this and other areas of discrimination law. We shall be treated tomorrow to regulations on race discrimination, and next week to religion and sexual orientation discrimination, all of which will he under different regulations, and all of which will add to the incoherence and opaqueness of the overall scheme. One needs to be almost a rocket scientist to appreciate the law, but it does not have to be that way.

I very much believe—and hope—that in two or three years a future Government will clear up the mess that Parliament is being compelled to make by passing incremental legislation by delegated legislation.

Having said all that, I do not take away from what I said at the beginning. The regulations in their own terms are most welcome. I hope that when the Government produce a draft Bill to reform the Disability Discrimination Act, they may take a leaf from the Equality Bill that was included as a result of suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Ashley of Stoke, and others. I am referring to the very narrow definition of disability, especially when dealing with mental disability. I was persuaded that that definition needs to be widened.

I understand why that cannot be done in these regulations, as it would affect areas that are not covered by EU law. But it is a good example of why we need to have either a Disability Discrimination Act, which deals with all of this in one place, or an Equality Act that includes disability discrimination within it. We should not have this kind of creeping mess of legislation, for which the Minister is not responsible, as I am sure that it is not her decision to proceed in a piecemeal way.

I hope that my remarks do not take away from my welcome of the regulations and the expertise involved. The drafter of the regulations must be outstanding—I believe that she was a member of my chambers. I very much hope that she will be employed in drafting a single Equality Bill sooner rather than later.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her clear explanation of the regulations, which will be widely welcomed, including by many employers. They will extend civil rights to some 600,000 disabled people who are working in jobs that are currently excluded from the DDA and will strengthen the career and employment opportunities for all disabled people.

However, it is argued by the Disability Rights Commission and others that the regulations do not go far enough towards full implementation of the EU employment directive, nor do they do enough to tackle systemic discrimination. Moreover, many key changes required in the employment field, including numerous outstanding recommendations of the disability rights task force, will need to be made by primary legislation, as pointed out by the commission. Disabled people are anxious that the Government press on with those, too. There is growing unease at the delay in bringing forward the promised draft disability Bill and a desire not to lose momentum on civil rights, especially in view of moves towards a single equality body.

One of the undoubted benefits of the regulations is the introduction of the concept of direct discrimination in the Disability Discrimination Act. This means that there will be no possible justification when a disabled person with similar abilities to a non-disabled person receives less favourable treatment by an employer on grounds of disability. It will clearly outlaw prejudicial treatment imposed simply because a person is disabled, such as a blanket ban on employing people with a particular disability.

However, an equally pressing issue is discrimination against disabled job applicants and employees on the basis of medical reports that are tainted by prejudicial assumptions. Recent case law has demonstrated how assumptions made by health professionals about disabled people can be used to justify discriminatory treatment. Can the Minister assure the House that it will no longer be justifiable to refuse employment to a disabled person because of reliance on a medical report, which is based on assumptions about a disabled person, without adequate consideration of the individual's abilities or the impact of the impairment in that particular case?

Finally, one area of concern that appears not to have been addressed by the regulations is the lack of protection for those who face discrimination because they are falsely perceived to be disabled, or because of an association with a disabled person. A recent example of this involved a secretary whose child had cerebral palsy and who felt pressured into leaving her job because of her employer's attitude.

Under the employment directive the right to equal treatment is not limited to the person who is disabled. Rather, discrimination occurs when someone is treated less favourably than another on grounds of disability. Surely the DDA must be extended to cover discrimination by association, or on the basis of perceived disability to comply with the directive.

Can the Minister assure the House that this matter will be addressed alongside other much needed changes to the definition of disability, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said, in the forthcoming disability Bill?

My Lords, my comments on these regulations can be summed up as an excellent refit of an obsolete ship. We all said that the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 did not go far enough, but that it broke new ground. It was much more important that the Act stated that discimination was something that we should not have, rather than what the Act did.

There was the appalling provision that the Act did not cover an employer with 20 or fewer employees. The noble Baroness can certainly take some credit as being the person who eventually removed that provision, but it meant that vast sections of the workplace were not touched by the legislation. The appallingly long run-in time and so on has meant that many of the intended effects of the Bill have not worked. But it was a first step and, effectively, this very limited framework is now, for the first time, reasonably coherent.

But there are still holes. I wonder why the Armed Forces have to be excluded. The defence of reasonableness and the fact that a person has to be competent to do a job means that the Armed Forces would not have to take someone who could not fulfil a basic function. But those are battles for another day. The Bill is now as it should have been originally—a limited vessel in the field of disability. But we have still not gone far enough.

The Minister is on very good form. Another analogy that comes to mind is that she is someone who has come with a good hand and played it very well. She is now saying that a draft Bill is coming along through which we shall be able to address many of the points raised by my noble friend.

My Lords, to be clear, I said that we expect to publish a draft Bill. As the noble Lord will know—I am sure that he is teasing me—a decision as to when and if any Bill comes to your Lordships' House is not for me or your Lordships to determine.

My Lords, well played and well defended. But the Government are at least saying, "We must look wider and go further. We are addressing the problem".

As the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, said, since we started off this process it has taken a long time to get here. I have always had one ambition in regard to disability rights—that is, to be able to put up my feet and say, "Well, that is that dealt with for at least the foreseeable future". That dream comes a little closer with the passing of the regulations and the tone of what the Minister said today. I hope that my crystal ball gazing will prove to be correct.

My Lords, as has been shown by the short debate, we are all extremely grateful to the Minister for her introduction of these incredibly complicated regulations. They are so complicated that it took me many hours with a cold towel to achieve even a modest appreciation of what they are getting at.

I was, as always, pleased to see the copious commentary memorandum that the Minister's department invariably provides on these occasions. Those noble Lords who have not seen it will perhaps not be surprised to learn, after the Minister's introduction and the debates we have had, that it runs to 66 pages of A4 paper—almost twice as long as the regulations themselves.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that the regulations are a masterpiece of the draftsman's art. As the noble Baroness said, they implement a part, and only a part—the subject of some of your Lordships' moans today—of the EU directive establishing a general framework for equal treatment in employment and occupation. The Minister says that two more orders flowing from that directive are to come. She did not say when. It may be that she does not know, but, if she does, perhaps she will let the House know.

The regulations today are concerned solely with disabled people and are made, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said, under paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the European Communities Act 1972. Indeed, I do not believe that the Disability Discrimination Act permits the kind of wholesale revision encompassed by the regulations. A quick glance reveals that we have, in effect, a completely new Act. Part 1 remains the same but Part 2 is now to start with two new sections defining what is meant by "discrimination" and "harassments". Sections 4, 5 and 6 disappear and are replaced by new Sections 4 and 6. In passing, what on earth has happened to Section 5? I am sure it is buried in there somewhere and that I will come to it.

The new Section 4 extends the provisions of the Act to agencies providing contract workers, which is clearly an overdue reform. The CBI was consulted a few months ago and raised no objection to this, to the new coverage of policemen, fire fighters, partners, barristers and advocates, or to the reformation—reformulation, perhaps I should say—of Sections 13 to 15 regarding trade and professional bodies, qualifications bodies and organisations carrying out practical work experience.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy, said, this matter seems to be only partially covered in the regulations—for example, when the trainee is the direct employee of the firm providing the training—but if agencies can be covered so far as concerns contract workers and part-time workers, surely educational institutes, colleges of further education and so on could also be covered.

The Minister rightly highlighted the fact that the regulations will also apply the Act to small businesses—to those, as the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, pointed out, with fewer than 15 employees—for the first time. This derogation, I believe, was invented because of affordability so far as small businesses are concerned. It was contained in Section 7 of the original Act, which is now swept away. Can the Minister tell us how she expects this to work in practice; about the employer's duty to make practical adjustments for disabled people; and at what cost?

I know that the Federation of Small Businesses has been lobbying the Treasury for tax credits to help small employers make the necessary adjustments for disabled employees and has received a dusty answer. I confess that I am not surprised. If the Government want the provision to work, as I do, being involved in a small business myself—and, indeed, as we all do— they must provide some kind of help. If tax credits are not the answer, will the Inland Revenue allow a 100 per cent write-off of the necessary expenditure in the annual accounts?

Why was Section 9, which pertains to the validity of certain agreements, repealed? It is a provision which strengthens the Act, not weakens it. The Explanatory Memorandum states that it has been replaced—but where? I said this was complicated, but I have totally failed to find it. That exemplifies my criticism of the regulations.

In my examination of what the regulations do, I have reached only the middle. I shall not weary the House by describing the other changes and additions that have been made. But that is not all: the regulations also renumber and move around those parts of the Act that remain. How are firms and lawyers—even officials—now to refer quickly to what they require? It is a nightmare of legislation by reference.

We desperately need a Keeling schedule for the whole Act, as it will he. It does not need to be statutory but I challenge the Minister to produce one. This is very important legislation. Reference has been made to the fact that the Secretary of State said earlier this year—as did the Minister today—that the department would publish a draft disability Bill later this year. We are now half-way through the year and it has become a fairly long promise. Can the Minister tell the House what progress has been made? Will it include the Disability Discrimination Act as amended? If a Keeling schedule is not appropriate, that most certainly would be.

We have no objections to the regulations in principle. Disabled people are people first, disabled second. We who are fortunate to be able bodied, should, as far as humanly possible, bend over backwards to allow them, according to their abilities, to enjoy the same rights and privileges that we enjoy. They are, for example, twice as likely as the able bodied to be unemployed, which is not a satisfactory arrangement. That inevitably means helping them to enjoy the dignity of work and not putting obstacles in their way. With a little thought and care, this can be overcome. Alas, we still in live a society that requires the law to enforce what needs to be done. It is too tempting for employers to discriminate against disabled people. Their very disabilities are discriminatory enough. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for presenting the regulations to the House.

My Lords, I am delighted that the regulations have received such a warm welcome from all sides of the House. I am very grateful. Even with the reservations expressed, which I shall address, I am delighted that everyone has recognised the decency of the Government's response in incorporating into British law two years ahead of the statutory requirement such a major extension of disability rights. It gives me particular pleasure for once to have the uncritical—although I know it will continue to be demanding—support of my noble friend Lord Ashley.

I shall seek to address some of the comments. I may need to reply in writing on technical points about why some matters are in the regulations and some are not. The noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, raised first qualification bodies. She was concerned that the DDA protection would not extend to bodies associated with GCSEs and A-levels. Our view is that examining bodies such as those for accountancy, law, the Bar Council, and accredited examination bodies that test competencies such as those for gas fitters under the Corgi principles are qualification bodies within the meaning of the regulations.

However, GCSEs and A-levels are not professional or trade qualifications within the meaning of the regulations. The regulations are work-related and employment focused. Examining bodies will not be covered by the qualification bodies provision when awarding those qualifications. Those qualifications represent a general standard of achievement in secondary education and do not themselves qualify for a particular trade or profession. The test already laid down by the court of appeal in case law under similar provisions in the Race Relations Act is whether the body is,

"similar to authorities which are empowered to grant qualifications or recognition for the purpose of practising a profession, calling, trade or activity".

While GSCE or A-levels may be the means. they are not part of the qualification under the regulations.

My Lords, I gave the example of GCSE maths because one would need it in order to qualify for the professional qualification. It is part of it.

Yes, my Lords, but I do not see how we could make a distinction between those people taking GSCE maths because it might subsequently be a qualification for a job and those for whom it would not be. It is clear that the regulations are focused on work-related and professional qualifications. I shall turn to work placements in a moment.

If the noble Baroness has any reason to believe that areas of GCSEs or A-levels systematically discriminate against disabled people, let us have a look at that; I shall draw it to the attention of my colleagues in the Department for Education and Skills. That may be a more practical way. The regulations are about employment criteria, which is why, within the meaning of the law as I understand it, GCSEs and A-levels would not be covered.

My Lords, I will communicate with Skill and see if we can progress on the issue. I thank the Minister.

My Lords, the noble Baroness's second point, about work placement and vocational training, was related. She felt, as did the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, that the description of work placements was possibly too narrowly drawn. I accept that these are difficult lines to draw and I am not saying that we have necessarily got it absolutely right—the provision may in future have to be revisited—but we are again trying to get placements that relate directly to work and work experience.

That would mean that we are not, in this context, covering placements about enlarging life skills. For example, someone volunteering to work in a charity shop would not necessarily be covered under the regulations where it was part of getting them back into the ordinary life-flow of mixing with other people and so on. It would not be work-related. We are focusing on work placements that are directly work-related by analogy with our previous discussion about professional qualifications.

My Lords, before the Minister leaves that point I wonder whether she will help me. We all know that the employers carrying out the training are not at fault because, due to their normal activities, they are already covered by the DDA. The gap appears to be for those people who seek out employers to create placements for training. I am advised, like the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, that such organisations are not covered by the regulations. Is that correct?

My Lords, it depends on the example the noble Lord has in mind. In some cases it would not be reasonable in terms of the push of the regulations—as opposed to the wider framework of a disability Bill. I am thinking on my feet so if I am misleading the House I apologise in advance. Say that someone had suffered from agoraphobia and had difficulties in leaving the house, but with a great deal of support and encouragement was able to do a couple of hours' placement in a charity shop, not because they were acquiring work skills, but because they were beginning to address some of the issues associated with their general health.

My understanding is that such a life-skills situation—which might be preparatory for a subsequent appropriate work-skills placement, perhaps involving learning IT skills and so on—would not be covered; nor is it intended to be covered. That would make the regulations too widely drawn. I am not saying that this is the last word on the matter, but that is our current distinction: whether something is directly related to work preparation or work placement as opposed to more general life experience activity, which would not be covered by employment focused regulations.

If the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, wishes to come back with specific examples I shall check with our lawyers our understanding of whether they would be covered. That might be the most helpful way forward. It is difficult for me to speculate in advance on how the regulations will come into effect.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, complimented our lawyer on the drafting of the regulations. I am sure that that is completely unconnected with the fact that the person concerned served in the noble Lord's chambers. I agree that it is a model of drafting that will be of help to us all. However, I disagree with his general approach of wanting a "big bang". I understand the arguments about Keeling schedules and the like. Having been involved in disability issues for some 15 years, from my experience perception issues change over time and there needs to be an incremental response.

The noble Lord went on to say that this should he part of a big bang single equality Bill, brigaded with issues of discrimination on the grounds of age, sex and race, for example. I am not sure that I accept that intellectually. Disability is very different. All of us are one sex or the other; all of us have an age, for which we may experience discrimination in one area or the other; all of us have a race, for which we may be discriminated against. That is not true for disability. Only some people experience discrimination by virtue of their disability. The rest of us would not.

My Lords, of course I recognise that one-solution-fits-all makes no sense for different kinds of discrimination, but that does not mean that one cannot have accessible, user-friendly and intelligible legislation. Does the Minister agree that the problem of using Section 2 of the European Communities Act 1972 is that it is a tight corset that prevents the Government using subordinate legislation to tackle the wider problems of disability discrimination raised by noble Lords today? Would she also therefore agree that we must aim for a single disability discrimination Act? That is not a Utopian aim. It does not matter whether it is part of an equality Act or not, but in the words of the Labour Party's 1997 manifesto it should tackle,

"unjustifiable discrimination wherever it exists".

Can we therefore take the sensible suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and do what a Labour government did with the Equal Pay Act 1970 when we amended it in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975? In future disability discrimination legislation, we should have something like a Keeling schedule, stating the whole of disability discrimination law in one place. In that way, lawyers such as myself would not unjustly enrich ourselves by having to deal with complicated problems that do not need to be complicated and are complicated only because of the way in which the Government choose to legislate.

My Lords, I do not seek to engage the noble Lord about the "corset" European Communities Act 1972. He has far more experience than I do on the matter, and I would not wish to use such words about something that is beyond my reach.

As for bringing together these regulations, the DDA and any possible subsequent Bill or rewriting in a Keeling schedule, I must take advice on the matter. I have not been advised on it and do not know about the practicalities. If it involved parliamentary counsel, as such things tend to, we could arrive at a situation where parliamentary counsel's time was displaced from primary legislation to pursue the matter. Therefore, there is a resource implication.

I take the point that we need to make the law clear and accessible. but I need to take advice on the matter.

My Lords, I realise that it would take primary legislation, that it could not be done otherwise and that Ministers have no power to do it under Section 2 of the European Communities Act. I am simply saying that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. In a future Act, we should have one Act and not a whole series.

My Lords, I understood that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale.

On the more general point about discrimination, I find it hard to conceive of a situation in which race was a relevant consideration in terms of an employment field. I can conceive, following the arguments we have had, of the acceptance we all share that competence must be relevant, and the ability to do the job is relevant to someone who has a disability. That is why the broad-brush approach would not necessarily be appropriate.

I turn to the points raised by my noble friend Lady Wilkins. She raised the question about direct discrimination regulations and asked what might happen if an employer sought to discriminate on grounds of stereotype rather than the merits of the individual. We believe that that is covered by the direct discrimination rules we have already discussed. Our regulations ensure that direct disability discrimination and failure to make reasonable adjustments cannot be justified. It is for the tribunal courts to decide whether discrimination has occurred in a particular situation.

The changes we are making will ensure that a disabled person, faced with the situation that my noble friend described, could bring a successful DDA case. I refer to situations in which an employer refuses to employ someone simply because of prejudiced and generalised assumptions. If, for example, someone had a history of depression and it was said that they could not do their job because it meant engaging with the public, that might well he a case of prima facie direct discrimination. The employer might rely on a statement by an occupational health adviser, who would have no knowledge of the person's individual circumstances. The adviser might decide that all people with clinical depression have terrible mood swings and therefore they cannot deal with the public and should not be employed in a call centre, for example. That would count as direct discrimination and would be covered in that situation.

I do not know whether that sufficiently answers the point made by my noble friend Lady Wilkins. Obviously, such a case would have to be tested at law, but our understanding is that the proposals on direct discrimination should cover the situations put to us by the DRC and those put by my noble friend today. If we need to qualify that, I shall come back to her.

My noble friend also raised the question of false perception. The problem is that we are trying to deal with an objective assessment, not the employer's state of mind. The example that she gave was covered more by her situation as a carer for a disabled person than as a disabled person herself. Therefore, as things currently stand, that would not come within the framework of the legislation or the directive. If, however, someone discriminated against another person because they believed falsely that that person had a disability that rendered them incapable, that would not be covered. Such a situation would relate to the employer's state of mind, and we have to deal with the objective facts of disability.

That brings us into the area of perception, which has been discussed under previous disability Bills. We have tried to stay in the territory that the person carrying the disability has to have the disability for the discrimination to be valid. It cannot rest on the assumption that the employer has false information in his mind. The classic example is when employers assume that a person must have HIV because he is living in a gay relationship and that therefore they can discriminate against that person. The individual involved might not have HIV, but he would be able to deal with the discrimination through other means, such as sexual orientation. That is the distinction we make in such situations.

My Lords, I do not agree with that distinction. I do not agree that one can confine disability discrimination in a narrow way to whether a person is in fact disabled rather than whether there is a false assumption that he is disabled. That is why it is sensible to have a single equality Act—because, in relation to sexual or race discrimination, arguments of that kind would not pass muster. I want to make it clear that I do not agree with the Government in that respect.

My Lords, I do not quite see how a false perception of sexuality could influence and come into dispute in a situation of employment. There is an issue for disability. I gave the example of HIV of a false assumption associated with a person's lifestyle. If an employer objected to that and had that false perception, that person would not have protection under DDA because he would not he disabled. We are operating not within the field of the state of mind of the employer but on the disability that the person discriminated against actually has. It would be difficult for us to test the employer's state of mind in such a situation.

We have had these debates for many years. I took part in similar debates in 1975. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, disagrees, but I do not see a read-across with sex or race legislation, because the sex or race of a person is somewhat unambiguous—even if it were relevant to employment situations, which for the most part it is not.

Finally, I turn to the point about costs raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. My understanding is that the overall costs to employers will be of the order of £6·7 million. The average business costs will be £6 per business and, in addition, there will be costs to the taxpayer of some £500,000 through the costs of employment tribunals.

My Lords, it would help if the Minister could tell me whether those are ongoing or start-up costs in that adaptations to workplaces have to be made to employ disabled people. On the whole, that would be a one-off cost.

My Lords, there is a one-off cost of £4 million in terms of awareness and guidance for employers, with some additional costs for recruiting and advertising. The overall costs include that, and we expect that to be around £6·7 million. Much of the cost of adaptation and so on is already covered by the current access to work funding. It has tripled in real terms to about £47 million a year since 1997. My best advice is that we expect the ongoing costs to employers to be about £6 per unit.

Employers are not being asked to adapt premises and so on in advance of any disabled person seeking employment with them. There is no general duty, for example, to produce the ramp in a building in advance. In that case, the noble Lord would be absolutely right that there would be fairly high, up-front, one-off costs.

The costs—and many benefits, obviously—come with the arrival of the disabled person. That is why the distinction between one-off and ongoing costs is not necessarily a real one. There will be modest one-off costs for advertising, disability awareness and so on, but the building costs are part of the ongoing and adaptation costs, because they come with the arrival of the disabled person. My experience has been that very often help with those moneys is available from the access to work fund, which is why the costs seem as low as they do.

My Lords, with regard to the implication of excessive costs for employers, does my noble friend agree that all that the Act says is that employers should not discriminate against disabled people? It also says that costs must be reasonable—that only reasonable action must be taken. So the question of unreasonable costs is quite out of order, according to the Act.

My Lords, my noble friend is right. Obviously, such adjustments may involve no cost at all. A classic example is adjusting the hours of work. Another is moving the filing cabinets around. In the United States the average adjustment for small businesses was minute, which is why the figures are as low as they are. As my noble friend says, this is simply to look at one side of the equation and to ignore the benefits, particularly in the workplace and subsequently in other areas not covered by the directives—disabled people being able to access goods and services and thus expand the country's economic base.

The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked me about the Keeling schedule. I shall write to him about that, because it is an important issue and we have the legal resources of the department. I understand where the noble Lord is coming from.

The noble Lord also asked what we are doing about the two areas of exemption that are not being carried forward in the regulations. One concerns pensions and the other the special education needs educational material. We expect—with health warnings attached—that we may be able to come forward with provisions concerning disabled people in occupational pensions in the autumn. That is the best advice that I have; I cannot be more specific.

I cannot tell the noble Lord about the education matter, because that is still being worked on within the Department for Education and Skills. Given the directives, we are required by Europe to have these provisions in place by 2006. That is the broad brush description of the situation. I hope that we can advance on that timetable.

I apologise for the complexity of the regulations. I accept that they are extremely difficult. I am grateful that your Lordships thought that the explanation was as helpful as we could make it. Above all, I am delighted, as I am sure all of your Lordships are, that the regulations will represent a sizeable advance in the rights at work for disabled people. The numbers—a million businesses, 600,000 disabled people and 7 million jobs—are huge. This is probably the biggest single advance for disabled people. many of whom find the best employment situations in the small family-run firms. This will rightly be a major extension of opportunities for disabled people, from which not just they but all of us will benefit.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

rose to move, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Union Committee on Mid-Term Review of the Common Agricultural Policy: External Implications (10th Report, HL Paper 62).

The noble Earl said: The emphasis of the report is very much on "external implications", because the committee looked specifically at the implications that this rather unexpectedly massive reform of the common agricultural policy will have on trade liberalisation, the applicant countries to the European Union and developing countries—and, indeed, on our commitment to the Doha development round.

I start by declaring an interest as a farmer and by saying how grateful Sub-Committee D was to its specialist adviser, Mr Brian Gardner, who has been involved for many years with tracking the common agricultural policy and matters agricultural in Brussels. As always, we are also deeply grateful to our Clerk, Mr Tom Radice.

The common agricultural policy has been in existence since the early 1960s. It is recognised that its focus for much of its existence has been on achieving a fair standard of living for agricultural producers, and of course also achieving food security. Basically, in so far as the subsidies over many years were to try to obtain a fair standard of living for agricultural producers, the CAP was singularly ineffective. Subsidies have failed to stop farm incomes from declining relative to those of the rest of the population. Price support is a relatively inefficient way of bolstering farm incomes. The OECD estimates that for every 4 dollars spent on subsidies, farm incomes go up by only 1 dollar. Therefore, it is not surprising that farm incomes seem not to have benefited from the considerable costs of the common agricultural policy.

That fact was recognised by MacSharry in the early 1990s, in that the reforms of 1992 cost more: they cost 13 billion euros for direct subsidies to compensate for 6 billion euros of market intervention costs. Nevertheless, it was a helpful introduction. It was seen as a way of establishing a programme, which it was hoped would continue for some years, for scaling down support, increasing the competitiveness of European agriculture and targeting state subvention on income support for the less-favoured sectors of the rural population.

The Berlin Council of March 1999 was part of this progression; the Agenda 2000 reforms of the CAP came out of the Berlin Council. This introduced the rural development regulation, which was widely welcomed and which is known as the second pillar of the CAP. The Berlin Council further lowered market support.

Nevertheless, the outcome was deeply disappointing to many countries, particularly to the UK Government and others. The reformists recognised that the Commission's objectives had been railroaded, the reforms being nothing like as far-reaching as had been hoped.

One concession was that there should be a mid-term review, and that is precisely what we are now conducting. The debate comes on the eve of the critical meeting of the Council of Ministers; it meets tomorrow, I think, and I have no doubt that it will be meeting for several days afterwards, because this is indeed, unlike what was expected at the time the concession was made in Berlin, turning out to be a major reform. For that, Commissioner Fischler and other commissioners deserve congratulations on the radical nature of the original proposals of June 2002, which was the subject of our report.

By January 2003 seven draft Council regulations had been published by the Commission, which retained the thrust of the original proposals but also embraced significant changes, partly in modulation and partly in dairy reform and other aspects. Nevertheless, it can be seen that the pressure exerted on the Commission has been, as in Berlin, to reduce the effectiveness of its radical proposals. If there is any doubt about the strength of the opposition from the majority of the Council of Ministers, I would refer the House to box 4 of our report, a letter to the Financial Times from a number of Ministers. I shall quote one sentence which is apposite to our report:

"Some also claim that the CAP is responsible for causing hunger in developing countries. Nothing could be further from the truth".

That is breathtaking complacency. Certainly, that bald assertion is not borne out by the evidence that we took.

As I said, the mid-term review is much more ambitious in its programme of changes. I remind the House that it introduced decoupling—the single income payment based on crop subsidy payments received over a period in the past. That is, indeed, a truly radical step and very important as it removes the incentive to produce more in order to get more grant. It gives hope that we can reconcile the common agricultural policy with something which might be compatible with the Doha development round and with other free trade movements.

Although decoupling is widely to be welcomed, I am very nervous of the concept of partial decoupling, which may well be the sort of fudge that comes out of the Council this week. We shall have to see whether that materialises. While the CAP continues to offer support—the amount of money that continues to be offered to the existing 15 member states is by no means insignificant at 40 billion euros or more—there will be higher production as a result, but, as I say, farmers are no longer incentivised to produce more.

We have to recognise that European farmers are doing astonishingly well out of the proposal. It is a long way from the sort of proposal that MacSharry might have expected to come forward at this stage of the reform. I have seen one analysis which suggests that United Kingdom farm income might benefit significantly from the total package, possibly by up to half a billion pounds a year. Economists can run those figures in all sorts of directions, and I do not wish to be held to that, but I nevertheless make the point that once you get a single payment without having to produce any more or any less, you are in a position of much greater flexibility. We have to bear in mind that European farmers are lucky to get that very generous support.

The support is to be modulated, which is European Union jargon for saying that it will be cut over a period. But, again, the more recent proposals have slightly modified those degressive cuts, and they will effectively not start for three years. It will take up to 10 years for them finally to hit.

As regards cross-compliance, one may think that it is not an unreasonable proposal that if one is going to get these massive payments there should be a degree of environmental and other compliance. However, it is fair to say that while it is extremely important to audit these payments, there is a danger that a bureaucratic nightmare may emerge. It is by no means clear whether there will be robust, simple proposals which would prevent that happening.

I believe that noble Lords would agree that, building on the Berlin initiative of the second pillar rural development budget, the measures that we are discussing should be grabbed immediately as it gives an opportunity to use the CAP to benefit the rural economy and widen the base of support. As I say, it disentangles us from the difficulties we have with the WTO and others.

I refer to changes in the dairy policy, some of which are extremely unhelpful. One of the latest proposals in January this year was that the quotas should continue until 2014. Try to reconcile that with the message to European farmers to be more competitive. Quotas are a way of providing a pension for people who have given up producing. You have to buy or lease someone else's quota if you want to expand or if you are a new entrant. That is highly unhelpful and, so far as I am concerned, unexpected.

There is a reduction in EC skimmed milk prices. It is calculated in the Government's response that by 2008–09 skimmed milk prices might be consistent with world market prices, although butter prices still remain 12 per cent higher. That step must be welcomed, if not the speed with which it is being implemented. Paragraph 67 of the report states:

"Jamaica's skim milk powder imports from the EU have almost quadrupled during the past 10 years … These imports have been used largely to replace fresh milk originally supplied from local farms".

That is an example of how the European Union's subsidised exports undermine the local economies of countries with a far lower standard of living than our own. I am absolutely clear in my own mind that European farmers do not want and do not expect to have a form of support which undermines others who are far less capable of coping with this unfair competition.

I say again that Commissioner Fischler is to be congratulated on having put forward ambitious proposals, which were certainly not expected by the majority of Council members, particularly on decoupling most of the support from production.

Having said all that, it would be churlish to say that that is not good enough, but that is effectively what our report says. I recognise that the following proposal is totally unrealistic given that the majority of the Council of Ministers is so traditionalist and defensive of the support that has been provided for so long, but nevertheless it is important that we look at the remaining dairy export subsidies so far as impacts on the third world are concerned. Reform of the sugar regime will also have to be tackled.

We considered the accession countries and recognised that, had the reform been completed before they joined the Union, there would not have been any need to compensate them for support that they never had in the first place. But that is effectively what will happen. It would be far more appropriate for the rural development budget of pillar two to tackle such problems as rural social cohesion. We regret that the reform has taken so long to be determined and that some of the applicant countries are already putting in place all the worst aspects of the CAP. I fear that the lobby in the Council of Ministers which supports the traditional CAP will be strengthened in part by the stance taken by the applicant countries.

But the wider issue is the need to reconcile support for European agriculture with our responsibilities to developing countries and trade liberalisation. I quote from the recent report on globalisation of your Lordships' Select Committee on Economic Affairs, which states at paragraph 76:

"We consider that developed countries' protectionism (mainly in the United States and the European Union) with regard to agricultural and textile products in particular is wholly objectionable and unjustifiable: developed countries' protectionism places an unfair burden on developing countries and is in stark contrast to the protestations of the leaders of the rich nations that they are committed to helping the world's poor".

We were particularly concerned at the level of import duty on processed food, for example, chocolate.

Let us make no mistake. European farmers are entitled to a common agricultural policy which assists them to move progressively from a heavily protected to a more competitive environment. The case for rewarding farmers' contributions to food security, countryside stewardship, food safety, the rural economy and much else is self-evident, but the question is how one has a policy which makes good sense to the taxpayer and which fulfils our obligations to the developing world and, for that matter, to the applicant countries. In recognising that the CAP reform is very much more generous than would have been expected some years ago, it is perfectly possible to take out its objectionable elements and to leave in place support which will reward European farmers justly for what they deliver.

Logically, once you have moved funds from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2, you will not need to have import tariffs or to subsidise exports. The trouble is that we see a very modest movement of funds to Pillar 2, and that is really the burden of our report. Having come up with the strategy of Pillar 2 in Berlin some years ago. let us now have the courage to fund it properly. Relying on modulation—effectively cutting support that would otherwise have gone to production support, via Pillar 1, and using that for Pillar 2—is not enough. There needs to be a much more imaginative switch of funds. That will prevent agriculture being criticised by the rest of industry in Europe for causing a blockage in trade liberalisation, and preventing all the benefits in terms of employment and national wealth that might accrue from it.

We therefore suggest that payments to farmers should be capped—not a proposal which will go down well in the United Kingdom, because the farmers in the United Kingdom are larger than the average and this impacts on the larger farmers. Equally, if you are to try to distribute money widely and you are relying on modulation only, it will eventually mean that you are short of funds for Pillar 2. Were it possible to do a massive switch without relying on modulation, then perhaps capping would not be necessary either.

The present anachronistic formula of determining what country gets what for Pillar 2 is one of these problems we suffer from in this country where, lacking matching funding, we do not by any means get what might be considered a due proportion of Pillar 2 funds. I think that we get 9.8 per cent of the EU modulation pot. Clearly this is a further grievance that British farmers rightly have. If they could see more money coming into Pillar 2, which they would bid for competitively, then this would be very much more satisfactory.

European farmers cannot expect their income to be shored up at the expense of third world producers. The mid-term review was a brave, ambitious programme of overdue reform, already diluted and in great danger, I suspect, of being diluted still further this week. The message coming from this debate today to our own Ministers, and to those who support the minority on the Council of Ministers, must at all costs be to ensure that we do not have what happened in Berlin, which was pressure from heads of government and others to dilute very sensible measures coming from the Commission.

I say again, these are measures which are radical, but they are overdue and they deserve our support. They cannot be diluted any further.

Moved, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Union Committee on Mid-Term Review of the Common Agricultural Policy: External Implications (10th Report, HL Paper 62).—(The Earl of Selborne.)

My Lords, it is a genuine pleasure to say that I very much welcome this report. I do believe, as we have often thought in the past, that publications by your Lordships' House are so good that they ought to he much more widely disseminated. If the powers-that-be could make it possible to have the 30 pages of the main report issued separately, it would become a very good and informative textbook on how the CAP—I should not say "works", because it does not—affects both the European economy and other economies.

I confess that I find it very hard to speak on the CAP without foaming at the mouth. It makes me angry just to think that it exists, so I shall try to be restrained if I can. The report is a very well-balanced account of all the major defects that the CAP has, and the committee is to be congratulated on the restraint it has shown in telling us what those defects are.

It is a policy which is inefficient in terms of production. It is regressive both among the farmers of Europe and also internationally, as between Europe and the third world. Whenever attempts have been made to reform it, the reforms have been blunted by all sorts of pressures from Ministers in the Council of Ministers.

My noble friend Lord Barnett, speaking in the globalisation debate last week, said that he wished that developed countries could do better regarding subsidies and so on, but he was very pessimistic. He said that democracy is a problem. I do not think that democracy is a problem. After all, farmers do not form a large proportion of the electorate. In terms of its contribution to the total economy, agriculture is not a large sector in most of the 15 European economies. Poland is another matter. However, here in Europe and in America agriculture exercises a disproportionate influence on decision-making. It is very hard to understand why that is so. Why we urban consumers tolerate this I do not know. Maybe, after all the subsidy, food is so cheap for us that we cannot be bothered.

The cost of the CAP, as shown in the report—41 billion euros now, 46 billion euros in 2006, and so on—is a very large cost. Think of it. It more or less equals the total overseas development aid from OECD countries to third world countries. It is about 50 billion dollars. Given the way the exchange rate is moving, there is not much between 45 billion euros and 50 billion dollars. CAP alone costs as much as all of the OECD countries give to the third world.

I am very grateful to the committee for two things: for publishing a glossary of technical terms and also for re-publishing in Box 4 that splendid letter from agriculture Ministers across Europe. It only costs 1 per cent of GDP and they think that is not very much. It is quite a lot.

The logic of the CAP is very clear from the letter. It starts by saying that in the 1960s Europe was not self-sufficient in food. It could have been imported. The whole logic is so opposed to trade—which is a very efficient way of satisfying consumption—that the CAP was constructed as a massive obstacle to liberal trade. It continues to be a massive obstacle to liberal trade, not only in preventing more efficient entrants from exporting to the European Union but also in its dumping effects, again very nicely detailed by the report. In its dumping effects it positively harms the economies of the third world by ruining their chances of entering a liberal, or at least a substantially freer, trade regime.

In a sense, it represents quite a large damaging force in international affairs. I have been quoted as saying that the CAP is a crime against humanity, and I do not mind repeating that. It is the least that one can say about it.

There is a very interesting problem with the reform which is now emerging, as the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, said very succinctly. The Fischler reforms, welcome as they were, have been blunted. Even the blunted reforms are worth having, but they have been greatly blunted. If the Fischler reforms had been put through, we would not have had a complete solution to the bad effects of the CAP, but at least it would have been a beginning.

Decoupling is absolutely essential. It is at the heart of these reforms. It is ironic that, if decoupling happened, UK agriculture would go back to the nice situation we had before we joined the EEC, as it was then, whereby farmers are supported through an income support scheme and not through a scheme tied to production.

I am not sure whether this cross-compliance and Pillar 2 are not seen outside as excuses which the EU has thrown up in order not to reform the CAP. I hope that it is sincere in saying that it will give money for environmental improvement, rural development and so on. However, I think that measures on those were thought up to give Mr Pascal Lamy a better case to present at the WTO round in Doha. I am not at all hopeful that good environmental effects will follow, because the measures do not seem as though they will be implemented.

Those are barriers to reform, as the committee says very well in paragraph 74. People trying to export agricultural products to Europe have to meet certain production standards, which are non-tariff barriers. There are non-tariff barriers to entry of products, and barriers, whatever we call them, to reform of the CAP. Those two types of barriers make it very difficult to know which way we will go.

The UK Government have tried very hard to reform the CAP. I hope that our debate and the report itself will strengthen the hand of the Minister. We will have to unite with all the other reforming countries and try once again very hard. As the report states, we should have reform of the CAP before enlargement. We should certainly have not given the newly-entering countries the hope that they would get compensation of anything like the extent of that of the existing CAP. The horse has now bolted, as countries such as Poland very much depend on getting substantial support payments. That will distort their agriculture so much that, when it comes to real reform later, they will say, "We cannot afford reform because that will ruin our agriculture".

We are in a vicious circle of bad situations. I wish my noble friend, if he is going to Brussels tomorrow, all strength to his elbows and every other part of his body to see that the CAP is reformed. I very much welcome the report.

My Lords, the words "reform of the common agricultural policy" tend to elicit from the average British commentator, whether pro-European or Euro-sceptic, a mixture of despair, anger and weary cynicism in about equal measure. Let us hope that those not very useful emotions will be absent from this debate on a report that seems to be calm, rational, compelling in its conclusions, and exceptionally timely as the European Union prepares to enlarge substantially and to engage in the critical phase of the Doha development round of world trade negotiations. The sub-committee and the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, are to be congratulated on their work, as, for the most part, are the Government for their response.

The heart of the report and of the Commission's mid-term review proposals, as others have said, is the breaking of the link between the level of subsidy and the level of agricultural production. It is, after all, that link that has led to the distortion of world agricultural markets, the failure to allow market forces to have any impact on the supply side of the equation, and the undercutting of third world farmers in their own and their prospective export markets by European Union producers. It is that link that even now results in the European farm industry, alone among Europe's industries, being protected from the impact of the rising value of the euro against other currencies.

If I may be forgiven for digressing for a moment, I recall that it was a former Leader of the House, Lord Soames who, when he got to the Commission in Brussels in 1973 and was put in charge of the Tokyo round of trade negotiations—I worked for him at the time—first pointed out the urgent need to decouple the subsidisation of farmers from the level of production, thus avoiding the encouragement of surpluses that had to be sold expensively overseas and many of the other trade-distorting effects of the common agricultural policy. He was quite simply laughed to scorn. How could he, a newcomer, be so naive as to suppose that European farmers and their political backers in the Council of Ministers would ever countenance such a revolutionary idea?

Well, it is an idea whose time has come—better late than never. No doubt attempts will be made in the negotiations that lie ahead, within both the European Union and the World Trade Organisation, to water down the proposals. I hope that the Government will commit themselves to resisting that with all the means at their disposal.

It is surely correct, as the report points out, that the decoupling of production and subsidy is also crucial if the new member states are not to become hooked on the present system, which will then become even more difficult to reform. We must be careful to avoid mixing up the budgetary and trade implications of the Commission's proposals. As others have pointed out, the proposals will not save the European Union's budget much money—perhaps not any at all, at least in the short and medium term. Does that discredit them? I do not believe so.

We must be careful of squeezing the budgetary pips so hard that support for the proposals in the new member states in particular erodes, and we must be aware of budgetary arguments related to the proportion of the EU budget that goes on agriculture. Those arguments have always been pretty spurious given how few major spending policies in Europe are financed out of the European Union budget. After all, we are talking about a proportion of European revenue capped at 1.25 per cent of gross domestic product, and that at a time when each member state is nationally spending a lot more than that on health, education and even, although reluctantly, their armed forces. We will not get common agricultural policy reform on the cheap, but we need it.

If I have a doubt about the Government's approach to the Commission's proposals, it lies in their answer to paragraph 78 of the committee's report, which is on the desirability of capping the amount of income subsidy to individual holdings. I think that I can detect in the Government's negative reaction a flaw that has so often undermined Britain's support for CAP reform in the past; namely, a determination to fight against any distinction between small and large farmers. In my view, that makes neither economic nor tactical sense.

After all, we do not refuse to make a distinction in many aspects of our fiscal and state-support systems between small and large economic operators. Why not in this case, too?

The tactical argument is even more compelling. If we devote our efforts and energy to removing what we see as discrimination against large producers, we end up weakening our support for the Commission's reform efforts overall. Alas, that has happened all too often in the past. I hope that the Minister will assure the House that we will not allow it to happen on this occasion.

If I have a doubt about the committee's approach, it lies in the somewhat cursory way in which it handled the issue of sugar, in particular in so far as it affects developing countries. Of course the report is right to underline the need to reform the European Union's internal sugar regime and to reduce the excessive production from beet sugar that results in exports damaging exporters of cane sugar in developing countries.

Another aspect is not touched on in the report much, and is merely hinted at in the testimony offered by the representative of the African, Caribbean and Pacific Secretariat in Brussels, who gave evidence to the committee. That is the very significant contribution that the European Union makes through its purchases of ACP sugar at prices linked to the EU price, and not to the world market price, to the economies of a whole range of developing countries, many of them members of the Commonwealth.

Great care is needed in handling the issue. Not long ago, we saw how abrupt change to free market rules could damage the economy of developing-country banana producers who had relied on privileged access to the European Union market. We should not repeat that experience. Perhaps the Minister will say how the Government propose to reconcile our support for reform of the European Union's internal sugar regime with our commitment to developing-country sugar producers in the ACP, which was a cornerstone of our own terms of accession to the European Union.

The topicality of the debate relates to the decisions to he taken later this week by the EU Council of Ministers on the negotiating mandate in the run-up to the World Trade Organisation's Cancun meeting in the autumn. It is of the greatest importance that that mandate gives the European Union negotiators more flexibility than does the present one. The present one is more of a straitjacket than a mandate. It would be good to hear from the Minister what he thinks the prospects are for a reasonable outcome later this week. Surely one thing needs to be avoided: a botched and inadequate compromise which leaves the European Union unable to provide the World Trade Organisation with the leadership that the European Union's position as the largest world trading power requires of it. Deadlock in the European Union would be regrettable, but surely less so than getting locked in an unnegotiable position. A period of tension between European Union member states is not something we should work for or welcome, but is surely a price we should be prepared to pay in order to get a decent mandate.

Why does this matter so much? Quite simply because if we cannot sharply improve the development content of the Doha round, if we cannot thereby convince developing countries that trade liberalisation is in their interest and not just ours, then there will not be a successful Doha round and we will all be the poorer for it.

In previous rounds we have marginalised developing countries, we have offered concessions on agriculture and textiles that have then not materialised. We have spoken loudly of our commitment to their well-being and not put our money where our mouth was. But that will not work again, nor should it. If we are to offer the developing countries the open markets that they desperately need if they are to make their way up the development ladder, which in the long term will he of far greater value to them than any amount of aid, and if we are to answer the more defensible of the criticisms of those who are disenchanted with the consequences of globalisation, the European Union is going to have to make a major effort and put its global responsibilities before the narrowly defined self-interest of its farming communities.

My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest as a farmer, but a farmer who welcomes this report. I join with others in congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, on getting together his committee, taking the views of the various witnesses and putting them together so well and so constructively in the report that we have before us. This follows the Commission's proposals, and the views on them that have been expressed by those witnesses. The proposals were set out fully in Box 2 of the report, on which, as we well know, Ministers are due to deliver, starting their proceedings tomorrow. It is therefore timely that we give an opinion on the report. It is a mid-term review report, and some of the views expressed seem to be outdated because of the updating of some of the proposals that the Ministers are currently considering.

The proposals have therefore moved quite a long way since last year. In that sense, my noble friend's committee may well have to meet again to review its findings after Ministers have debated and deliberated. If they follow the pattern of history in an endeavour to reach a compromise and offer each country something, we face all kinds of difficulties. The evidence is based on a mid-term review which now becomes a CAP reform. Some of the proposals have changed: one concerning farmers in this country is that the notion of a cap on payments of 300,000 euros has fallen by the wayside. The future is by no means clear. Many current proposals are being considered for withdrawal or have been withdrawn. Whatever the outcome, ultimately, as I see it there are three guiding principles for which we should aim. The first, which everyone would welcome, is a significant simplification of the existing support arrangements and the removal of a large proportion of the regulatory bureaucracy which they produce in an attempt to police the current complex systems of support. Policing is seen to be more flexible in some countries than in others. How often do we hear it said that we obey while others have not heard of the rules? That is not strictly true, but nevertheless that is a feeling that many people have. This should be done to minimise the redistribution of funds between those who currently receive support and those who may be beneficiaries in the future.

At the same time, reforms should be carried out with the key objectives of allowing the farmer or the grower of products to focus clearly on the needs of the marketplace and respond clearly to the signals of demand coming from consumers and customers. That point is set out clearly in the report.

I believe there are encouraging signs. Farmers' markets are developing, farm shops are being created and anyone who visited, for instance, the Royal Cornwall Show last week would have seen in the food hall a fine example of a taste of the West: good quality food and in great demand. Therefore the example is already set, small though it is.

In so doing, the primary producer will benefit from the removal of all the inefficiencies in the chain that have been built up and built into the machine by successive adaptations and changes in the common agricultural policy which have added significant additional costs or price penalties. Many of those costs and increases, and the input that goes into the total funding—which has understandably been severely criticised today—do not reach the farmer. How is that we hear that some £2.40 per head of every cow in Europe is an on-cost? The farmer reacts when he is receiving 15p a litre from his milk and the cost in the shop is 75p. You cannot say that that is "coming from Europe"; it is properly market-oriented.

I am pleased that the report makes it clear that the revised CAP should be less complicated, less bureaucratic and less centralised. The principle of decoupling, of removing direct support payments from production, and concentrating policy on more environmentally friendly farming is welcome. Ministers will have a tough time in persuading their European colleagues to support the full Commission proposals. I would be very concerned if we accept partial decoupling, as my noble friend Lord Selborne said. It is all or nothing and that is the way we have to go. If we had a flat rate decoupling option of between, say, 70 and 90 per cent across all sections, with the remaining funds allocated to a national envelope, that could then be used at the discretion of each member state or region to target specific sectors.

I could spend, as others could, the few minutes that I have in this debate on the proposals for further decoupling, for cross-compliance, for the Pillar 2 policies and for modulation, on all of which I agree entirely with what my noble friend Lord Selborne has stated in his report. The problem to which I always return is to make them simple and workable.

The CAP is accused of encouraging over-production, as it has. Yet agri-environment measures are working. Many are taking advantage of the countryside stewardship schemes and marketing groups are increasing. Since the last full reform in 1992, the changeover to more sustainable farming has been steady. Therefore substantial surpluses are a thing of the past. There is an ever-increasing level of imports, mostly from countries where labour is cheap.

Now, as we move towards a more tariff-free and less subsidised trading world in food, incorporating many developing countries, we cannot ignore the proposals and the rules that will apply under WTO. Yet, as we see it, most of our trade is with the European Union, bringing greater risks for competition, as we have seen in the past two or three years as the European Union expands.

When the Minister replies he may consider some of the points of concern about that where exports have fallen from 58 per cent to 53 per cent since 1999, mainly due to the monetary disadvantage of the pound and the euro. The output loss shows a staggering effect of over £800 million a year since 1999 through that issue alone.

The controversial area of debate relates to land that has changed hands since the beginning of the reference period and which has been perceived as totally unfair. I hope that Ministers in their deliberations can agree a solution whereby the calculation of payment entitlements can be adjusted in cases where permanent transfer of land has taken place in order for future payments to reflect the size of holding at a time when a new scheme comes into force. I hope that is an issue that can be dealt with here because the landlord/tenant system that applies in many other European countries is totally different from ours. Therefore, member states need some discretion on how to tackle those consequential issues.

The report endeavours to cover a very wide range of complex issues and rightly highlights the importance of enlargement of the EU and the significance of WTO and the Doha round. If we are to help or to see help given to developing countries so that they can help themselves in the form of production, the areas of concern are import access and export subsidies. Replacing a tariff regime in the grains sector with tariff quotas will make WTO negotiations more, not less, difficult and will not necessarily help more developing countries to help themselves and to improve their position or their standard of living.

Generally my views support the report. I thank the committee and, in particular, its chairman for presenting it to us.

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and the members of the sub-committee for what is an excellent report. It is a matter of hideous complexity. I approach it with the utmost diffidence. This is an area where angels, and no doubt bishops even more so, should fear to tread.

There are some very important moral and environmental considerations to which I shall refer briefly and which are brought out very clearly indeed in the evidence given by the assistant secretary general of the African, Caribbean and Pacific Group of States on pages 23 to 27 of the minutes of evidence. That contains some very worrying material indeed and a great deal of uncertainty is also expressed on the part of those states.

Basically, I agree strongly with the approach of the committee. Decoupling is essential; modulation needs to be at higher levels than is presently proposed; and degressivity is right. All such changes must be carried through if the European Union is to have a credible negotiating position with the WTO. I would like to see written clearly on the bottle, "Do not dilute".

What do we want to see? As far as I am concerned, we do not want to see unbridled free trade; certainly not the dumping of EU or US products on fragile agricultural economies in the developing world with catastrophic results for local producers. Reference has already been made to some examples. It is truly shocking that Ministers could write the letter in Box 4 on page 14. It shows quite remarkable dishonesty and complacency about the dire effects of EU subsidised food dumped on developing countries, especially wheat, dairy products, sugar and, from the United States in particular, rice with devastating effects on the rice production of Ghana and Haiti. As referred to in the NFU evidence, that is US hypocrisy, although, as the NFU points out, that is partly because of the separation of legislature and executive in the United States. If that is the reason given in the United States, what is the reason for the European Union dumping?

I have to admit that I have a sneaking sympathy, here and there, with some of the points made later in the letter in Box 4 about sufficient numbers of contented producers with confidence in the future maintaining the diversity of our landscape. I would not argue entirely with what Ministers are saying, but in particular with what they say about the effects of European Union policies on the poorer countries.

The moral maze of the trade justice debate is utterly bewildering. Some of the NGOs urge more opportunities for poor countries to gain access to our markets with their primary products. Some of that trade is highly desirable; some of it is essential if such countries are to earn the wherewithal to buy from the developed world the technology that they need to raise standards of living for themselves and to achieve the standards of quality, consistency and reliability that are needed if their export businesses are to be successful. But I believe that there are still strict limits to what we should encourage in terms of trade.

Both the United States and the United Kingdom Governments have been guilty of some extraordinary and, I believe, unacceptable attitudes. I quote from John Block, former US agriculture secretary, as long ago as 1986. If this is an attitude that has informed United States' policy since then, can we be surprised? He says that the,

"idea that developing countries should feed themselves is an anachronism from a bygone era. They could better ensure their food security by relying on US agricultural products which are available, in most cases, at much lesser cost".

Much more recently, our own Clare Short said:

"old ideas that focus on national self-sufficiency in food, rather than national capacity to purchase the food that is needed, are deeply outdated".

I think both those statements are deeply regrettable.

Some trade is positively undesirable if it reduces self-sufficiency or what has come to be called food sovereignty: the right of every nation to produce as much of its own food as it wants, needs and reasonably can produce, given climatic constraints. Parts of Kenya are suitable for intensive dairy farming, but for Kenya to export its dairy products to the United Kingdom and to Europe would be as nonsensical as it would be for us to dump our surplus dairy products on the Kenyans.

I find the attitude of some NGOs a little surprising. They are campaigning hard to persuade the EU and the WTO to make it easier for the developed world to import much more food from relatively undeveloped countries, seeing that as a matter of trade justice, which it is on any reasonable analysis. But that begs the question whether such increased trade is desirable. Is it good to introduce industrial and intensive agricultural methods in developing countries? Is it good to add food miles, all of which are environmentally damaging? There are already serious problems of overproduction of coffee, for example, low returns and a consequent treadmill effect of ever-increasing production and ever-diminishing returns. I do not believe that we want to see that process replicated in the case of other primary products.

There are real difficulties over monoculture crops such as bananas. It is vital for the European Union to continue to defend, to some limited degree, protection in specific cases, probably for limited periods. But the overriding principle should be of food sovereignty, which is in turn an important step towards food security. I would want to reverse absolutely what was said by John Block and Clare Short. The reform of the CAP, which originated in a strong desire to protect small-scale local production within Europe, should continue to have as a guiding principle the ideal of food self-sufficiency, the undesirability of needless food miles and the real benefits for developing countries of the sensible, flexible growth of traditional local food production, not the imposition on such countries of agribusiness methods. For all their benefits in increasing production levels, those methods have had the unhappy consequences of environmental degradation and the breakdown of rural communities.

I have one final thought—more about the long term, but, I suspect, not as long term as many seem to think. Increasing world population and the progressive impact of climate change will pose very serious problems for world food production. The area of cultivable land will change. What are appropriate crops today will not be so in the same places in 50 years' time. Some countries will become better able to be self-sufficient in food; others will become much less able to achieve that. On any reckoning, we shall need to increase world food production well beyond present levels, but without causing unacceptable environmental damage.

Solving the problem of achieving successful and equitable food distribution will become a matter of such complexity as to make the reform of the CAP look like the proverbial vicarage tea party. But I believe that the United Kingdom Government, in all our present negotiations on CAP reform and the Doha development round, should take account of that longer-term context.

My Lords, this debate relates to the external implications of the mid-term review of our agricultural policy; it is not a general debate about reform of that policy. I shall therefore concentrate my remarks on the 10th report of the Select Committee so clearly presented by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and its recommendations on how the mid-term review should be best used to improve the effect of the policy outside the Union. Some of the recommendations are clearly helpful. I am glad to see the Government's response and hope that they will follow it up in the imminent negotiations.

To put the recommendations in context, however, I wish to stress some features of the agricultural policy as it is today and not as it was yesterday. I sometimes think that commentators do not believe those who say that there have been important changes in the policy, but if they do not believe it they are wrong. The original common agricultural policy, created long before the United Kingdom joined the Union, was a system of market management for a number of major products. It maintained the level of prices by intervention, public purchase or similar mechanisms in the market, and the system of import levies and export refunds. It was a brilliant conception, but prices were set too high, and agriculture Ministers were not then willing to bring them down. The result was that agriculture thrived, consumers paid above the odds and stocks piled up because farmers were just too good at producing at those prices, and the costs and difficulties of disposal were great. In those distant days, I remember asking agricultural officials of the Commission whether they had ever seen a cheque paid to a farmer. The answer was "No", because there were little or no direct aids to farmers. Everything hinged on holding the market prices at or about the agreed level.

The reforms, to which there have been quite a number of references today, starting with the MacSharry reforms of 1992–93, reduced the impact of intervention in the market. That was done either by reducing support prices—the Select Committee's report refers in paragraph 12 to a net 34 per cent reduction in cereal intervention prices—or by making the intervention mechanisms less rigid and therefore less effective. But the member states could accept the cuts in the support for agriculture only by introducing some compensatory payments direct to farmers. That is why the Select Committee, in the report that we are debating today, has the dilemma of dealing with the potential effect on third countries both of the now reduced market mechanism and the direct payments to farmers. As I understand it, we have created a double problem.

That is the background against which the Commission has proposed the next set of changes in the mid-term review. I share the view expressed in the Select Committee's report at paragraph 16 that the review proposes,

"a much more ambitious programme of changes than was originally envisaged in the original undertaking to conduct a mid-term review".

That is good.

From the point of view of the external impact, the key elements for me of the mid-term review package are, first, a decoupling; that is to say, the replacement of direct compensatory payments with a single farm payment independent from production. That seems absolutely crucial. The second key element is linking the payments to environmental, safety and other conditions; the third is some increase in resources for rural development, as there are not enough; and the fourth is further revisions to market policy for some products. There are other proposals, which have been referred to, for cutting payments to large farms and degressive modulation. They are certainly important limitations for the United Kingdom and are opposed by the National Farmers' Union of England and Wales. I shall not deal with those because we are looking mainly at the external aspects.

The proposal for decoupling is clearly positive for trade liberalisation. It will be helpful in the negotiations on the Doha round, which is extremely important for the Union since, as the world's biggest trading power, we have important objectives in the Doha round in other sectors. We need to maximise our firepower to reduce barriers in other countries to our trade and commerce in all sectors. Beyond that, I think that Defra is right to make the following general point in its memorandum at paragraph 16:

"Although essentially a domestic measure, the decoupling of direct payments (and, within that, the proposals on modulation) would have a significant external impact by making production more sensitive to market demand and theoretically"

the word is rather carefully chosen—

"eliminating the need for surplus disposal measures and market price protection".

Broadly speaking, I believe that the change will set our agricultural policy on a more sustainable track. The Select Committee adds that it is essential that decoupling is agreed and applied before the eastward enlargement of the Union next year. It thus recognises the potential attractiveness of the present policy to some new member states and the potential stimulation of production that might arise there. I take this opportunity to congratulate the Polish people on their extremely high level of acceptance of the proposal to enter the European Union.

The Select Committee goes beyond the mid-term review proposals in recommending the abolition of market intervention and export subsidisation. That is clearly radical. We have had it before our eyes many times and we have not succeeded. It would mean shifting the balance of our agricultural policy entirely, not gradually as we have been doing, from the market to a system of grants per farm, supported by some environmental and rural development measures. It is not, in my view, negotiable, but it may serve to continue pressure for the changes that will certainly be made as a result of the review and in later years.

It is worth noting that for some products—notably cereals—where the support prices have been cut most sharply, the relationship with world prices is, taking one with another, very much closer. For example, exports of wheat and barley from the Union were competitive enough in the second half of 2000 to be made without any refunds at all. It is also reflected in the way the agricultural budget is now spent. The latest report on the agricultural situation in the European Union shows that only around 18 per cent of the agricultural budget was spent on export refunds and storage of products, whereas 71.52 per cent was spent on aids to producers.

The Select Committee report also looks at the relationship between the mid-term review and trade with less developed countries. A number of noble Lords have referred to that important point. The question goes a little beyond the proposals in the midterm review because least-developed countries have totally free access to the Union's markets except for three products, two of which, sugar and bananas, were excluded for the present in order to protect the position of other less developed countries which have preferential access.

The 70 or more African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, from whom the European Union imports around 7 billion euros of agricultural products each year, have special access at favourable and higher than world prices for some of their products, notably sugar. If the Union's own sugar regime was dismantled—there is much to be said for that we would have to see how to maintain some advantage for those countries. They would be in serious difficulties. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also referred to that important point. The principal beneficiaries of a more open sugar regime would not be those countries. The West Indies, Mauritius and so on would be the losers from opening up the market completely. The countries that would mostly gain would be Brazil, Thailand, India and Australia .

The Select Committee refers also to the milk and milk products policy. The Union is one of the world's biggest and most efficient milk producers. The milk quotas, which are highly undesirable economically, were introduced to restrain production at price levels decided by Ministers. They will have to go earlier than is now proposed. However, the Commission is right in the review to propose price cuts going much beyond those agreed in Agenda 2000. Any significant change in the milk and milk products regime would benefit Australia, New Zealand and Argentina, but I am not sure that that would have any significant effect for less developed countries. As to the possible damaging effect of the current export regime on less developed countries' agriculture, it is regrettable that the recent French proposal to pay no export refunds on all agricultural exports to Africa has apparently run into the brushwood. That would have a real value in judging the consequences of such a course and is setting an example for other action. I hope that that can be revived.

In conclusion, there are valuable recommendations in the Select Committee's report and the Commission's proposal on the mid-term review should be broadly supported. Changes and reductions in agricultural support are needed, but I like to keep in mind—I have had such a long time in the public service that I feel that I should be balanced—first, that the European Union is the largest importer of agricultural products; secondly, that the Union imports about 27 billion euros—a big figure—each year of agricultural products from the ACP countries, South Africa, the ASEAN countries, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, South American countries in Mercosur and those in the Mediterranean basin; and, thirdly, that while the cost of agricultural policy is too high, it is still less than 1.2 per cent of public expenditure in the Union. I am not talking about GDP but public expenditure. The remaining 98.8 per cent is spent on more—or less—useful areas.

My Lords, I joined the sub-committee that produced the report in December, about half way through its deliberations. That still gave me time to experience the very able chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Selborne. He was effective and incisive and there was also the great advantage that when he told us at the start of the morning that the interrogation of the witnesses was to end at noon, it did. That is something that all members of sub-committees will appreciate.

I do not wish to repeat the comments that have already been made by other noble Lords about the contents of the report, although I agree particularly with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford on the very damaging effect of CAP subsidies on the agriculture and exports of less developed countries. I have an elder son working for Oxfam and the right reverend Bishop will understand that that is a subject upon which I receive considerable lobbying whenever my son is at home.

I learned quickly after joining the committee about the accuracy of Box 1 in our report, where we say under the heading "The language of the CAP":

"It is commonly agreed—even among those with professional interests in 'playing the game'—that the illogicality of the CAP is matched only by the impenetrability of its jargon."

How true. One of the prevailing and constant messages that has come through in this afternoon's speeches is that whatever happens in relation to the reform of the CAP and the switching of money from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2, about which I shall say more, it is essential that that should be in language that the average farmer understands. Small farmers are already overwhelmed with forms from DEFRA—so often the language is too complicated for them.

As other noble Lords have said, the great development ahead of us is the joining of the 10 European countries to the European Union—and the effect of that on the demand for subsidy of one sort or another, including whole farm payments from the CAP budget to the incomers to the Union. I was gloomily struck by an article in the Daily Telegraph three days ago. It was headed:

"No EU silk purse for the Polish pig farmers".

That was before the vote in Poland which I am glad to say was massively in favour of joining the EU. However, the article quotes a farmer who has a 100 acre breeding farm in Poland, saying:

"Mr Janecki said that only one thing is certain after Poland joins the European Union on May 1 next year: he will be paid pounds 10 an acre in subsidies from the Common Agricultural Policy, while German farmers nearby will receive four times as much.".

That is just the sort of inequality and problem that the CAP has to live with and deal with over the years ahead with the new entrants into the EU.

The section of the Select Committee report that I shall talk about for a few minutes is on page 23, paragraphs 82 to 93:

"The effect of proposals on sustainability of European agriculture".

I declare an interest as chairman of the Sussex Downs Conservation Board, wrongly described in the register of interests for the report as "Sussex Downs Conservative Board". It is as a result of that chairmanship and the fact that I live on the South Downs that my own direct experience of British agriculture is concentrated on two different parts of the United Kingdom—the South Downs and, 650 miles away, the little Hebredean island of Tiree. Funnily enough, sometimes the problems of agriculture in those areas are much the same. They both have working farmers who rely substantially on sheep production for their incomes. In both cases the smaller farmer, who has perhaps a holding of 150 to 200 acres, or a croft of that size in Tiree, has seen his income fall in real terms over the past five years, particularly with the massive fall in sheep prices. That presents a problem with the reform of the CAP. I very much approve of the contents of the report, and I agree with the note of optimism in it that has been echoed this afternoon. However, at the same time, one has to think about how the move from cereal production and headage payments for sheep and cattle will work out for the small farmer who does not have very much more to offer or to do other than to graze sheep or cattle on his land.

I very much hope that that area will be carefully thought about and further developed because I find that, so far, in relation to both those areas, if one tells someone that reform of the CAP will help them, most people simply look cross-eyed. It has been talked about so often and people do not know whether reform will happen, and, if it does, they do not know whether it will benefit them. It is rather like talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Everyone thinks that something should happen and that the CAP should be reformed. There is an awful lot of talk, but what actually happens in the event that is explicable to those who are in need of support?

As I look at the conclusions on sustainability in our report, I hope that, as it states, the cross-compliance measures of the move from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2 will be sufficiently effective to ensure that the small farmer who is told to stop intensifying his produce does receive substantial alternative possibilities of income onto his farm. If that does not happen, the movement of money from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2 could be ineffective in its result.

In that context, although the Curry report is referred to in this volume, I do not believe that DEFRA or the Countryside Agency have yet been dynamic enough in putting over to farmers in this country how they can use Pillar 2 money—money for agricultural environmental improvement—in an effective way. My noble friend Lord Plumb referred to country stewardship schemes, and I am also aware of the environmentally sensitive area schemes in the South Downs. However, the number of farmers who actually benefit from those is very small. We need wider, imaginative schemes to help the farmer who will now be told that he is not going to get more money for having more sheep or cattle, which is his normal reaction. He must be helped to find other agriculturally and environmentally suitable ways of producing more income. This is an area that needs a great deal of thought and help from DEFRA in making the ideas that come forward from the European Commission work practically.

We all welcome what Commissioner Fischler has suggested. We hope that his proposals will not be modified too much in the negotiations that start tomorrow in Luxembourg. It is noticeable that the letter in Box 4 to which others have referred is signed by seven agriculture Ministers, so there will be a lot of argument and debate in Luxembourg. I hope that the Fischler proposals will be accepted to a large measure. I noticed that one noble Lord in the debate this afternoon—it may have been the noble Lord. Lord Desai—used the words, "France is moving". Let us hope that that is the case. If France is moving, we will see really effective reform of the CAP that will help small farmers in this country.

My Lords, I need not declare that I am a retired farmer as I do not get income from farming any more. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, the chairman, for the wonderful way in which he led the team in producing the report.

The time of publication of the report is good for the Minister. I am pleased with the Government's response to it. It is vital that the common agricultural policy be reformed before the new members join the market. The common agricultural policy was set up at the beginning of the Common Market in the 1960s by people who had personally experienced the horrors of a genuine lack of food—even starvation—in Europe during the Second World War. They were determined that that would not happen again, and they envisaged virtual self-sufficiency in temperate climate food supplies. They aimed at encouraging higher and more efficient production through production subsidies and direct market support, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, said. I knew that, if he spoke before me, he would say that.

The problem arose when surpluses began to appear and mountains built up. Because of the large agricultural vote in most countries, there was no political will to deal with the problem. Surpluses were dumped at low prices and import barriers raised, which stopped developing countries exporting their products to the Common Market. The CAP had become like a supertanker, and, although there was some minor tweaking of the rudder, it moved forward on its disastrous course.

In paragraph 100 of the report, we state that time is not on the side of the reformers. How true that is. There must be more radical changes before the new members join. With the WTO, Doha and the development round, we must end up with sustainable agriculture and—even more importantly—environmental protection. I am particularly concerned about further environmental degradation in this country if less money goes into agriculture and if the change from the first pillar to the second is not large enough. In the 10 new member countries, existing unique habitats may be lost because of efforts to intensify and raise production.

I shall not go through all the proposals again. We want to end up with sustainable agriculture and environmental protection leading to more prosperous food production, a better countryside and more fairness to developing countries. Do the proposals go far enough? I do not think they do.

My Lords, I congratulate the committee and its chairman, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, on an excellent report. I regret that I had to take my turn to come off the committee before it embarked on the inquiry.

As other noble Lords have said, the report is jargon-free, and it contains some good explanations. It was particularly encouraging that so many noble Lords who spoke this afternoon are not on the committee now. That shows how the committees of your Lordships' House can produce reports that widen interest in a subject to noble Lords who generally take an interest in other subjects. This is a truly cross-cutting report.

The noble Lord, Lord Desai, described how well the report examined the delicate balances that must be struck between the various interest groups and showed that interests that are seldom heard must be taken into account. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford underlined the fact that, when Ministers from the various nations discuss the matter tomorrow, they must resist the siren calls of national interest. Such calls are not in the interest of the WTO round or of developing countries. I understand that it will be difficult for national Ministers to resist them.

The mid-term review discussed in the report is considered from four angles: what does it do to help developing countries; what does it do to help enlargement; what does it do to help the WTO round; and how does it affect our producers and our environment at home?

I welcome the conclusion in paragraph 81 that the EU and developed countries need to help developing countries. It will be no use approaching trade more freely from the point of view of tariffs and subsidies if developing countries receive no help or guidance from us on health, safety, labelling and animal welfare regulations, which they find difficult now. They will not be able reasonably to access our markets. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford explained clearly why issues of local production, local markets and national food production are important. Nevertheless, great attention should be paid to paragraph 81.

Paragraph 115 refers to the level of subsidy receipts to individual holdings. I agree with the conclusion.

On enlargement, paragraph 47 refers to the transferring of funds from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2. Pillar 2 must be funded properly. Those countries may be in the situation we were in 30 or 40 years ago. We expect a great deal from our producers: that they continue to produce food and comply with all the environmental requirements. Paragraph 48 refers to rare habitats and species. The Government's response to that paragraph is so weak that I feel I must quote it. They said:

"We envisage that effective implementation of all relevant EU legislation in accession States, and not only that which relates to cross-compliance, would ensure that habitats and species are adequately protected".

I do not believe that that will he the case. We must learn from what happened with our intensification. Intensification there undoubtedly will be in enlargement countries. We must ensure that those countries which still have rare habitats and exceptional species are protected. The Government should pay more attention to that paragraph.

The noble Lord, Lord Walpole, underlined the conclusion at paragraph 91. I shall not repeat it. These Benches believe strongly that the environmental issues underlined in that paragraph are important.

The WTO round failed to agree by March 2003 the agenda for the agricultural round in Mexico. The developing world might be right to call the attitude of the European Union, the United States and Japan to free trade something of an axis of evasion. We have talked a great deal about reform. Very little has happened. In the United States matters took a step backward with the introduction of the agriculture Act.

With its proposed reforms of the CAP the European Union is moving away from this evasion to a more positive attitude. That should be encouraged. It is essential that a decent agreement can be reached this week by the Council of Ministers. Given the importance that everyone attaches to such success, I was disheartened to read the briefing from the Country Land and Business Association. I wonder whether all its members would sign up to this statement. It said that,

"this is not amongst the strongest or most useful [report] from the Committee".

It believes that undue importance to those issues as drivers of policy change is not helpful. Of course, the CLA is representing an interested body, but we must all work together to ensure that we can propose reforms for the long term that will benefit everyone.

Finally, I refer to the issue of decoupling and the single payment entitlement. The noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, pleaded for clarity and making it understandable. It is difficult to understand what will occur under the proposals. Some examples would clarify the situation. I am unsure what the Government propose under the single payment entitlement. Will farmers in this country who are entitled to that payment receive it for as long as they choose to stay on their landholdings, even though they may not be producing anything? I understand that that is part of the reform. But they will be effectively retiring on the job. That worries me in particular because of the implications for future new entrants.

I understand that there will be a 1 per cent national reserve to deal with the problem. But the new policy must send a clear signal that new entrants can expect CAP reforms to hold something for them. Perhaps the Minister could provide in your Lordships' Library a couple of case studies on the proposed single payment entitlement about what will happen now to a farmer in his 40s or 60s, or, alternatively, one who is just coming into farming.

It is an excellent report. I congratulate the committee on grasping a difficult nettle, cutting across the different issues and producing such an understandable report.

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Selborne on introducing the Select Committee report. I found it challenging. The committee had to balance the needs of the less developed countries, the farmers in the UK, those in the EU and those who will join the EU. That is quite a melting pot. I congratulate the committee on producing the report. I remind the House of my family's farming interest. We are participators in a stewardship scheme.

When introducing the debate today, my noble friend said that it was a very timely event. Indeed, it is. The Council of Ministers meets tomorrow to consider these major reforms. It wishes to see a progressive move from food production towards environmental matters. How this can be achieved without continually disadvantaging less developed countries is the issue which has taxed noble Lords today. We are very aware of the needs of those countries and the requirement to overcome the unfair playing field which currently exists.

My noble friend suggested that perhaps there was not enough money to achieve the required changes. The report suggests, in the part on modulation, that British farmers are likely to be disadvantaged because, on the whole, UK farmers are bigger farmers than others. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, pointed out in his very worthwhile contribution, it is 1.2 per cent only of total public expenditure. I think that that is not publicly known. Everyone thinks that CAP is the majority of expenditure and not a tiny proportion. We should be aware of that.

In paragraph 19, the committee has listed the eight important issues where the House of Commons conclusions and recommendations coincide with those of the House of Lords sufficiently to,

"indicate a general meeting of minds on the main issues before this inquiry",

I should like to emphasise three of those eight important issues. First, the recognition that the primary role of farmers should be to produce food that consumers want to buy. Diversification is all very well, but it must not be allowed to eclipse the need to produce for ourselves—indeed, in national countries, for themselves—the greater part of our own food requirement, to recognise health and safety standards and to ensure that fair prices are paid both to the farmer and by the consumer. Many noble Lords have referred to the failure to introduce firm proposals to end milk quotas, so I shall not go into that issue, but I, too, consider the delay regrettable.

Turning to Part 3 of the report—Analysis and Opinion—I am grateful for the opportunity to comment in some detail on some of the points raised. Generally, the report rightly states that European food is safe and of a high quality—in paragraph 32. That is important. It cannot be said of all food and, once again, there have been reports of adulterated imported chicken in processed food coming into this country. I firmly believe, as I am sure do other noble Lords, that food importers and processors should be bound by the same standards that apply to our farmers. Consumers should not be put at risk from processed food which contains adulterated product, nor should they be put in the position of buying goods produced in ways which they would abhor on our own farms. My noble friend Lord Plumb referred to this; he said that policing is patchy. I would go further; in some countries I think that it is non-existent.

Paragraph 42 contains possibly the most important statement in the whole report. It states:

"It is essential that the Commission's recommendations on decoupling are agreed and applied in advance of the eastward enlargement from 2004".

We are already in the sixth month of 2003. Ten new member countries due to join in 2004 believe that an unreformed CAP would give their farmers higher incomes. The candidate countries applying to join after 2004 believe that an unreformed CAP would act as a spur to increased production from their farmers. I believe that a CAP still unreformed in 2004 will result in great danger to our own agricultural future and a downward pressure on agricultural earnings.

Farm incomes have been unsustainable in this country for the past three or four years. It is true that they have improved slightly during the past year, but they are still a long way from being sustainable. Recovery in many sectors has been made possible in large part because of the huge numbers that have left the industry. How do the Government propose to persuade the remaining EU countries to get on with these reforms which they currently face?

The committee proposes that modulation be strengthened by increasing the percentage taken from subsidies, by making transfer to structural funds at a faster rate than currently planned and by shifting some of the transferred funds in the EU15 to the new members to build up their structural resources more quickly. The committee has also dealt with the dairy and sugar regimes in paragraphs 49 to 51, 59, 79 and 112. These are huge and very important issues for the developing countries—in particular, the sugar regime, to which other noble Lords have referred.

The committee was clearly disappointed by the Commission's lack of resolve in these areas—which I support. It wants to see an end to the delivery and production quotas, stepped cuts in support prices and a consequential stop to market support and export subsidisation. Paragraphs 60 and 75 deal with the effect of the proposed reforms on the less developed countries—for example, the African, Caribbean and Pacific group of states. I have highlighted in bold that the committee,

"deplores the lack of concern among Member States for their plight".

That has been reflected in the whole Chamber today.

The committee concludes that to help them the EU subsidies must be not only decoupled from production, but reduced eventually to the individual producer. In his introduction, my noble friend told us that the committee was looking in particular at the effects on less developed countries, and it is right to do that.

The suggestion that the level of subsidy receipts allowed,in toto, to individual holdings be capped follows as night follows day. Indeed, we have heard that some organisations—in particular, the CLA—are concerned about that. But it is an issue that we must tackle. I know that currently the Commission has moved away from the proposed capping system—I think the Minister will confirm that later. But if the capping system is not to be involved, how will the desired goal be achieved?

Will the Government ensure that money raised from modulation stays within the UK and comes into a national envelope or will it be returned to an EU pool over which this country has no control? If the money raised has to return to an EU pool, will we be certain that an accounting system will be kept annually and audited regularly so that we shall know where the money goes? It is hugely important that we do.

In paragraph 81, the committee recommends that more emphasis should be given to the development projects which will assist less developed countries to meet the EU health and safety quality and labeling requirements. We need to take that on board because it is no use if food is produced which it is then decided is not of the right quality and is therefore banned. This particular comment made in the report is very important.

I am sure that we would all agree that the recommendation in paragraph 92—namely, that a revised CAP should be less complicated, less bureaucratic, less centralized—is to be welcomed and it has been touched on by most noble Lords today. It should offer farmers more choice in running their businesses. I welcome the committee's observation that environmental measures should be designed to encourage and reward good land management.

However, the report has left some uncertainties. The CLA, NUF and others have raised with me their concerns on the decoupled payments proposed. It is accepted that the proposed single farm payment should be paid on the historic period of 2000 to 2002. But many do not accept that this payment should be paid when the structure of the farm has changed meanwhile, nor that the payments should be tradable without land. These uncertainties are already having an effect on our land market. People are unwilling to enter into long-term tenancy agreements or land purchase because they do not know what they are renting or buying.

I wonder if the Minister would comment on this issue: such proposals to allow payments to "walk off"—the expression that I would use—the land are a threat to our environment as they undermine land-owning confidence and discourage the ability of new entrants, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and they could bring CAP into future disrepute.

Does the Minister think there is a major problem in decoupling for livestock and the unsupported sector of the farming industry, in that there are no clear reference points as there is with IACS registered land? Has he considered that valuers could establish units of livestock, or whatever, for any given farm in the same way that is done when arbitrators discuss rents?

The unsupported crop growers have written to me about their concerns on the reforms with CAP. Under the new proposals, farmers will all receive a once-a-year payment, regardless of crops or cropping rotations. Farmers who grow only highly subsidised crops of cereals and oil seeds will receive the highest payment, and those who grow unsupported crops as part of their arable rotation will receive less. Those who grow only vegetables, potatoes or fruit will receive nothing at all.

I wonder whether those issues have been taken up with EU Ministers and what their views were. Perhaps the Minister can touch on that in his response.

In his speech of 10 July 2002, Franz Fischler stated that he wanted to guarantee farmers a fair income and free them from the red tape imposed by CAP. I am sure that all of us would say, "Hear, hear" to that. But at the end of his speech, he said:

"Farmers no longer have to present themselves as a charity case. Instead, as commercially minded businessmen working for a healthier environment and the countryside, they can request their due from the European Taxpayer with their heads held high".

Those are inspiring words, but a fair income must encompass a profit. Without the prospect of profitable farming businesses, the aspirations of good environmental issues, beautiful countryside and social cohesion cannot be achieved.

We are looking for a fair deal for UK farmers and for the EU and the new countries joining it, and very much a fair deal for those less developed countries who are reliant on us. We are looking for certainty. We have a plan. We have a purpose. We have a direction. But over the years the plan keeps being changed, as other noble Lords have said.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford rightly touched on the impact that climate change might have on our long-term food production and the rising difficulties that that will give some countries in producing food for themselves. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, spoke of his concern, which I share, about it becoming a botched compromise. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, said that the proposals, if carried through, would mean major changes for our farming communities both within and without the EU.

My noble friend and his committee have produced a good report. It is controversial in parts, but I am thankful for that, too. It emphasises the many challenges that we face with these mid-term proposals. I thank them most sincerely for the quality of work and the time that they gave. I look forward to the Minister's response.

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and his committee for producing a very good report. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, described it as "calm and rational". It is also incisive and one with which, by and large, the Government agree.

The timing of the debate is both hugely appropriate and extremely difficult. It is appropriate for the House to debate it on the eve of the discussions, but difficult for the Minister to reply—certainly to do what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was tempting me to do, which was guess the outcome of what will be extremely difficult negotiations in Luxembourg over the next few days. How many days is not yet clear, but my right honourable friend Margaret Beckett will be leading those negotiations. I shall be here responding to the debate of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on the countryside and subsequently on the Water Bill, with which the two noble Baronesses and I are involved. I shall be slightly on the substitutes' bench, I suspect, as the negotiations will go on for some time.

There are different opinions in the various EU member states on Franz Fischler's proposals. His proposals are bold and clear. They have already had some set-backs, and there will undoubtedly be some negotiation and some compromise before we reach the end. The sense of direction of the radical change that Commissioner Fischler is proposing will survive. It will certainly have the strong support of the UK Government and several other member states. Everyone is moving a little as a result of those bold proposals. I think that my noble friend Lord Desai said that the French had moved. If so, it is the first shift in French policy on agriculture since Napoleon left Moscow, and is to be welcomed.

In his opening remarks the noble Earl referred to the danger of partial decoupling. Everyone who has spoken and the UK Government recognise that partial decoupling could be the worst of all worlds. It could leave us with two new systems rather than one; over-bureaucracy rather than simplification; distortion rather than clarity; and not a sufficient shift away from domestic support to do us any good at the WTO negotiations in Cancun in September.

Nevertheless there is an undercurrent of partial decoupling being discussed among the other member states. Franz Fischler is taking a strong line, and the UK Government will take a strong line, but there will be some discussion as the French, German and Danish Governments and others are talking about partial decoupling.

If partial decoupling exists in any form in the final agreement—and we hope it will be minimal—it must be clear. It must not over-complicate the outcome, but must achieve the objective set by Commissioner Fischler in terms of Europe's contributions to the WTO round and in shifting the burden of support for agriculture away from production-related subsidies towards support for land management that delivers an effective and environmentally sensitive landscape, while freeing farmers to follow the markets rather than subsidies. That is the whole point of our approach.

The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, underlined the fact that farmers would benefit. I strongly appreciate the support that, with some difficulties to itself, the National Farmers Union has given to the position taken by the British Government—and with some reservations the Country Landowners Association as well. We have strong support from progressive farmers in this country, and Franz Fischler also appreciates that. Farmers will benefit by becoming more commercially oriented, as will society if we get a more environmentally oriented agricultural system as a result.

The noble Earl and others referred to the limited degree of new money that is going into the second pillar. It is true that it is not such a large-scale modulation as was originally proposed, but nevertheless it is some additional money and again gives a clear sense of direction. Others expressed concern that the dairy regime was not a very radical proposal. I am afraid that I have to sympathise with that. The quota system, which was intended to restrict production, has turned into a system that people have to meet and a trade-all asset that distorts the way in which farmers respond to what is the real market. We should have liked to see a quicker end to the present dairy regime, but there will he subsequent negotiations.

Having said all that, where we are now, at the beginning of the negotiations, and with the clarity of Commissioner Fischler, we have the opportunity for radical reform. The burden of the Select Committee's report is on the international repercussions. It is on the development ground and the ability of Europe to make gestures to help developing countries that will begin to reduce the export refunds and resistance to access to the markets, which the traditional CAP has presented to developing countries. Much more is needed, and in the negotiations, if we accept more or less the Fischler package, we shall go into the Doha negotiations in Cancun in a relatively strong position, but not as strong as perhaps it should he. We need to recognise within Europe that we need to do more, as the right reverend Prelate said, to help the developing countries to help themselves. I do not go as far as the right reverend Prelate in casting quite as much doubt on free trade as he did. There is quite a long way to go from the current CAP to unbridled free trade. Somewhere down that road we would have a much freer trading system, subject to some terms. Some of the terms will protect agricultural production both in developing countries and in Europe and protect the consumer in terms of safety and environmental impact.

But it is important that increased trade is seen as part of the solution for the developing countries. It is not right simply to say that they should be self-sufficient, any more than we should maintain one of the original tenets of the European Union's common agricultural policy—that, as a prime objective of agricultural policy, we should seek self-sufficiency. That would not be good for Europe nor for the developing countries. Trade would be good for both, albeit not trade on completely free terms but trade which recognises what the European Union, in its position statement for the WTO negotiations, refers to as non-trade considerations, including safety, the environment, quality and animal welfare.

I agree with the right reverend Prelate that the United States is in the frame as well as the European Union. While I hesitate to use the term "hypocrisy" in regard to our American allies, there is an element of double-talking in relation to their approach to agriculture and the development round. Certainly the net results of the agricultural and trade policies of America give less access for the agricultural products of developing countries than does the European Union. Therefore the United States has a contribution to make as well.

It is important to get this issue clear before enlargement. Certainly it was necessary for us to ensure that the decision was taken in a timescale before we enlarge the European Union. That has meant some deals with the accession countries which, to some extent, they resent. I disagree with a number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, the report and several others who have implied that it is inevitable that the new member states will be against reform and will want to maintain the agricultural policy as it is.

The accession countries want a level playing field—the Polish pig farmer referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, makes the point crudely and clearly—and they have not got a level playing field in relation to direct payments. But they have benefits in other respects, including the price of labour and the price of land, so there are swings and roundabouts. However, although they argue for a level playing field, they do not argue that we should maintain the CAP system as it is.

I have made many visits to eastern Europe—to Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Estonia—in the past few months. None of the governments of those countries support the CAP system as it is. Most of them are radical reformers. It is very interesting that almost all of the accession countries have decided to pay the part of the direct payments we have agreed should be received by them in a decoupled way, not in a way relating to production. That is a very positive and clear signal that they want to decouple the system; that they do not want in their systems the over-production and price distortion that most of western Europe went through.

As to some of the anxieties expressed about the environmental impact in eastern Europe, the accession countries do not want to go through the same negative impacts of intensification which occurred within western Europe. Clearly there will be some restructuring of central European agricultural—there will be some mergers where the size of farms is not sustainable—but that can be done by adopting production methods which do not repeat most of the problems that occurred within western Europe during the 1960s and 1970s.

That is largely because the regulations to which they have now signed up—and most of the accession countries have transposed those regulations faithfully—are very different from the laws which applied in western Europe during the period of intensification of its agriculture, both in regard to the landscape and biosecurity and the positive attraction of the agri-environment dimensions of the agricultural policy. None of that was there when we went through the often quite devastating effects of intensification on our landscape and wildlife.

I am relatively optimistic that the new nations will not drag us backwards but will be part of the way forward. I am also relatively optimistic that they will not repeat the mistakes of western agriculture but will join with us in creating a more environmentally sensitive agricultural system in the future.

This reform is not the be-all and end-all. As the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, rightly reminded us, this was originally simply a mid-term review. It has grown somewhat—I am very pleased that it has—but there will be further stages. As the committee pointed out, some areas have not been fully addressed.

The sugar regime has not been touched, as it was not touched in the earlier stages of CAP reform over the past 20 years, a process with which the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, is very familiar. He was right to remind us that much change has taken place, but not much in the sugar regime. Part of the reason for that is that changing the sugar regime would have some complex effects internationally as well as domestically within Europe with its large-scale beet farming.

If we were to straightforwardly liberalise the sugar regime it would have enormous implications for the cane producers who have traditionally supplied the UK market. The ACP countries which have benefited from that regime are obviously anxious that we do not immediately embrace a sugar regime which effectively would change from being one which gave them preferential access to one which transferred the benefit of the European market, at a lower price, away from the poorest to the less poor, such as Brazil, and, in some cases, to rich countries such as Australia.

There are other regimes like the sugar regime which need to be addressed, but it is not straightforward how we should address them. There are others which have not been addressed which, I would argue, should end as rapidly as possible—the most obvious being the tobacco regime. From all points of view—in terms of trade distortion and producing and subsidising a product which then imposes costs on our National Health Service and health services throughout Europe—there is no justification for the tobacco regime. But, because of the timescale of these proposals, tobacco is not covered at the moment. However, it has been registered as an area for further reform.

The process of reform and the degree to which it succeeds will be crucial when we go to Cancun and the WTO negotiations in September. It is very important that the European Union arrives at those negotiations with a clear and positive agenda for reducing both domestic and export support and tariffs. The proposals do not currently go far enough. The outcome of the negotiations needs to be sufficient for us to have met the demands on the reduction of domestic support required by the WTO.

That does not mean it will all happen overnight in the WTO negotiations. There will be phased progress, as there has been in previous WTO rounds. But in previous WTO rounds the EU was always on the back foot, partly, if not largely, because it could not bring anything on agriculture to the table. In this round of WTO negotiations, which is the development round, agriculture is absolutely central. We must therefore go to Cancun with a positive policy on agricultural trade.

Sometimes it has been politic for us not to focus on that reason for CAP reform. It does not always go down well with European farmers who see it as being more in the interests of other sectors of the economy that we should develop a more liberalised trading system than in their interests. But it is nevertheless important for all of us. It is important for the developing countries and for Europe. It is estimated that the benefits from a better system of trade will run into several hundred billion euros and it is important for the farmers themselves that they are seen as part of an international trading system and a domestic economic system and not as an arcane, obsolete anomaly.

The central problem with the CAP is how it plays with the citizens of the rest of Europe and the world. Currently, most taxpayers, however they may feel about rural and farming ways of life, resent the fact that a significant amount of the European taxpayer's money goes to farmers to produce products which are not those they as consumers want in the market. They vary in the intensity of their view, but we must move to a system in Europe where the CAP is justifiable to the rest of the citizenry of Europe. At present it is not.

Even more importantly, crucially, Europe has to have an agricultural policy that is justifiable to the rest of the world. I believe that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, pointed to the paragraph of the views of my ministerial colleagues in other countries, to whom my colleagues will have to be nice in the next few days. But it is wrong to say that the CAP does not cause hunger in the developing world; it does. The fact that we subsidise exports to those countries replacing their own agricultural products—the Jamaican example is germane—causes poverty in rural areas in developing countries and an increase in the cost of food to people in urban areas in developing countries.

We cannot go much further into the century and hold up our heads in discussions with the rest of the world if we continue to operate a policy whose prime impact on two-thirds of the world is to cause poverty, and starvation in extreme cases. The British Government recognise that; as does the European Commission. Farmers' leaders here recognise that fact. All governments in Europe recognise it to some degree. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, referred to the Africa initiative by the French Government, which indicates a sensitivity there as well as here. It did not go far enough in our judgment, but it was a recognition that the development impact of agricultural policy must be recognised by all EU countries.

We need to build on that recognition. The discussions starting tomorrow, this report and the Government's response published today, give an indication of the position the UK will be taking. But for Europe and the world as a whole we need a positive outcome: for our farming communities in Europe; for consumers and society in Europe; but most of all for the future relations between Europe and the rest of the world. My thanks again to the noble Earl and his committee, and to all noble Lords who have participated in this very good and, by and large, consensual debate.

My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to the Minister for that helpful and thoughtful response. The debate has been characterised by a broad view about the role of the common agricultural policy and our international responsibilities—the debate illuminated just what those are.

I return to an issue raised by the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford, and the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. It relates to the specific problems of the ACP countries, which currently benefit from special access. They leapfrog across the import barriers that apply to other countries. If we demolish those import tariffs in order to help countries such as Brazil, they will lose their preferential status, which is a problem to which the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others drew attention.

When we come to the sugar regime, which will follow, that issue will have to be addressed. We hope by the end of the week to have the precedent of decoupled payments. There is no reason why that principle should not be applied tothe producers in the ACP countries. We have to find a way of giving support to the farmers without perpetuating something very convenient for the European farmers, who benefit from the high prices internally and say that they are doing it for the benefit of the least developed countries.

I am delighted to share the Minister's optimistic note about the applicant countries, which he believes are taking a sensible view. They will not be adding to the dead weight of those who signed the letter, which we reproduced in Box 4. I am happy to agree with him that there are excellent indications that the support will be used sensibly. All it remains for me to do is to thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate and to wish the Secretary of State and her team every success over the coming few days.

On Question, Motion agreed to.