Lord Janner of Braunstone
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will seek to promote the employment of professionals over the present retirement ages where there is need for their services and they are competent to perform those services.
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Baroness Blackstone)
My Lords, the Code of Practice on Age Diversity in Employment already sets the standard for good employment practices for all, including professionals. It promotes a flexible approach to retirement that does not use age as the sole criterion. It is being vigorously promoted with employers. Retirement arrangements should take individual and business needs into account. The evaluation of the code's impact will inform further plans for promoting the benefits to employers.
Lord Janner of Braunstone
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does she agree that to force people out of work because of their age when they are fit and capable and there is need for that work is totally unacceptable institutionalised ageism? Bearing in mind that many Members of this House have a personal interest in her answer, perhaps she will give an affirmative, friendly, positive and constructive answer to this first Question of the new year; namely, what steps will the Government take through legislation to ban ageism and institutionalised ageism of this kind?
My Lords, I accept that there is much interest in this House in a Question of that kind. As I grow older I daily become more interested myself. The Government's view is that we should be much more flexible about this matter where people over the age of retirement continue to make a positive and worthwhile contribution in whatever employment they are in. The Code of Practice on Age Diversity in Employment encourages employers to be more flexible in that respect. It is a complex issue so far as concerns legislation. I cannot respond other than to say that the issue requires a great deal of thought before we go down that road.
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on reaching the Privy Council. I have some sympathy with her not wanting to legislate on this rather delicate matter. The professions vary a great deal, but is she aware that lawyers do not always reach the prime of life until they are about to retire?
My Lords, l thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks about my elevation to the Privy Council. It is not for me to comment on when lawyers reach their maximum level of performance; there are many better informed noble Lords who can comment on that matter. We need to take a sensible, commonsense approach to the employment of older people. I am sure that Members of your Lordships' House will agree that many people over the age of 65 can make a contribution, just as many noble Lords do in this House. I am glad to say that there has been an increase in the number of people over the age of 50 in employment. Over the past two or three years the figure has risen by 6 per cent.
My Lords, has the Minister's attention been drawn to an article in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago which indicated that the voluntary code to which she referred in her first Answer is not widely known among employers, and is certainly not widely adhered to? Perhaps she can say something more about the promotional activities to which she referred also in her first Answer?
My Lords, I did not see the article in the Sunday Times. However, I accept that there may be many employers, particularly smaller employers, who are not yet familiar with the con tents of the code. My department is in the process of evaluating its impact. It is perhaps too soon to tell my noble friend Lord Borrie what its impact has been and what further promotional activities are necessary. I hope that my noble friend and other noble Lords who feel this is important will help the Government in making clear to employers that age discrimination is unacceptable.
My Lords, does the Minister agree that often in the professions it is ageism which makes people anxious to get rid of older people and that, at least in the case of the teaching profession, it is the expense of employing older people rather than younger people? Does she further agree that many schools are desperate to have turnover among staff so that they can employ the cheapest teachers, who are the youngest and beginner teachers?
My Lords, there are many reasons why employers want to retire older people earlier than is perhaps necessary. Sometimes they are good reasons. Perhaps an older employee does not have the skills and qualifications needed to carry out their particular job in different conditions.In relation to the teaching profession, there was a substantial increase in the number of teachers retiring early in the early to mid 1990s. But the previous Government made sensible proposals for reducing the number of early retirements by making the cost fall on the employer rather than on the national scheme. As a result, over the past two years the numbers taking early retirement in the teaching profession have reduced substantially to around 2,500 a year.
My Lords, does the Minister agree that in this House noble Lords do not reach the full prime of their maturity until they achieve the age of 80 but that the rest of us are all trying?
My Lords, that puts me in a very difficult position. Quite a few Members of your Lordships' House reach maturity a little under the age of 80 but some may not get there until they are nearly 90.