Considered in Grand Committee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 27th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
My Lords, I will provide the Committee with a brief summary of what the order seeks to achieve. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient changes to legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The order is made in consequence of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012, which received Royal Assent on 7 August 2012. I shall refer to this as the 2012 Act.
The 2012 Act creates a single Police Service of Scotland, which will be maintained by the Scottish Police Authority. This service will replace the eight existing police forces maintained by local police authorities and the two central bodies which currently provide national policing services in Scotland. The 2012 Act, together with this order, repeals the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 and replaces it with a new statutory framework for policing.
The 2012 Act also creates a single Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. This newly created service replaces the two unitary fire and rescue authorities and six joint fire and rescue boards which are currently in place. The 2012 Act amends the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 to establish this single fire service.
Additionally, the 2012 Act provides for the Police Complaints Commissioner for Scotland to be renamed the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner, with expanded powers to carry out investigations into serious incidents and other matters relating to the police. The 2012 Act also places independent custody visiting in Scotland on a statutory footing, ensuring compliance with the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture.
As will be seen, it is a very substantial order in terms of size, but I can assure the Committee that it is entirely consequential in content. Its intention is not to make any new policy but simply to ensure the continuity of current arrangements when the 2012 Act comes fully into force on 1 April by updating existing legislation to refer to the newly created Scottish Police Authority, Police Service of Scotland and Scottish Fire and Rescue Service.
The order makes provision for mutual aid and collaboration agreements between the new Scottish services and other forces and services in the United Kingdom. For police, this replaces provision in the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 and, for fire, it provides a clear statutory footing to ensure that the current relationships continue to work effectively. The order will also make certain transitional and savings provisions, again for the purpose of guaranteeing continuity of services.
Following its scrutiny of the order, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew the attention of this House to the instrument on the grounds that it gives rise to issues of public policy which may be of interest to it. I take this opportunity to thank the committee for its consideration of the order and address the issue that it raised.
Article 9 of the order makes it an offence to cause disaffection among members of the Police Service of Scotland, the British Transport Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. It also makes it an offence to induce a member of any of those forces to withhold services.
With regard to the scope of the offence, I assure your Lordships that it is not the intention that an individual would be charged under the offence set out in Article 9 for merely expressing an opinion or legitimate concerns. The UK Government would expect a prosecution to follow only where there was a real and serious attempt to cause disaffection. Such action could lead to a breakdown in the ability of the police to maintain public order and to protect society. Any attempt to undermine the role of the police in this way is a serious matter and must be addressed. That is why we consider this offence to be necessary.
Offences parallel to that proposed in Article 9 already exist in relation to all UK police forces and the specialist forces; namely, the British Transport Police, Civil Nuclear Constabulary and Ministry of Defence Police. The Home Office has confirmed that there is no intention to remove the offence in England and Wales, and it is my understanding that its repeal is not being contemplated in Northern Ireland either. These offences are considered to be essential to the proper operation of policing. The intention of the order is to ensure that the new Police Service of Scotland can continue to work effectively with the other police forces within the UK. Not to include this offence would cause a discrepancy between constables of the Police Service of Scotland and those of other UK forces. It would also cause a discrepancy, for example, between members of the British Transport Police operating in Scotland and their colleagues in England and Wales.
It may well be the case that your Lordships’ House will wish to consider the terms of this offence in a wider context. I would submit that the purpose of this order is simply to maintain continuity and consistency between the new Police Service of Scotland and other forces across the UK. It would not be appropriate if the Scottish Government had proposed removing the offence for forces operating in Scotland as this would leave a significant gap for effective policing throughout the United Kingdom. Moreover, if your Lordships’ House continues to have concerns about the general policy surrounding the offence of disaffection, it would not be appropriate to use this technical piece of subordinate legislation to address such wider concern here as this order is concerned with maintaining effective policing in Scotland and ensuring continuity of current policing arrangements.
With regard to the instrument as a whole, it is worth noting that this order is part of a much wider legislative programme to provide a smooth transition to the new police and fire services in Scotland. Indeed, 15 other instruments have been laid to date in the Scottish Parliament, and I understand that 10 more are planned, while a related order, the Scottish Administration (Offices) Order 2012 (SI 2012/3073) was considered by Her Majesty in Council and subsequently laid before this Parliament on 19 December 2012.
Work on this consequential order has been undertaken by more than 20 departments within the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Welsh Assembly Government, who have agreed that the provisions in this order are necessary to ensure the effective operation of the new police and fire services in Scotland and the continuation of effective relationships with their partners throughout the UK. With the 2012 Act completing its passage through the Scottish Parliament only in June last year, agreement on the policy and the drafting of the instrument has been concluded at an excellent pace, with great credit to all those involved across the different Governments.
It is also fair to point out that neither coalition party in the Government here at Westminster was supportive of the measure when it went through the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, my party opposed it and the Conservative Party abstained. Nevertheless, I believe that it is consistent with the spirit and mutual respect that we give effect to an Act properly passed by the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, it was passed by 101 votes to six with 14 abstentions. I believe that it demonstrates the United Kingdom Government’s commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope that this Committee will agree that this order is a sensible use of the powers in the Scotland Act and that the practical result is an example of how we can make devolution work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
My Lords, I am perfectly happy with what the Scottish Parliament has legislated for and I am happy with the order. I should like to record my surprise at the strategy of going for a national police force in Scotland. It certainly has been the tradition in Scotland and across the whole of Britain as an island that policing should be organised locally. At home, I have maps which point out where the Alloa borough police force was: it had a chief constable, a sergeant and 10 constables. The tradition in Britain has been one of local policing.
I also acknowledge that in another part of English-speaking Europe, in Ireland, that it always has had national policing. After 1922, the Royal Irish Constabulary was replaced by two national forces—the RUC and the Garda Siochana. I want to record the fact that I am surprised by the strategy which apparently we want to have in Scotland, while I am very happy about us having a strategy in Scotland.
My Lords, the Opposition support the measure, which as yet is another example of continuing devolution. I will not pay tribute to the Minister’s staff today because the last time I praised one of them, she mysteriously vanished and we have never seen her again. I do not know quite what he has done to her but I hope that she survives and makes a further appearance. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, has mentioned the Scottish tradition of policing but we all have to recognise devolution and its implications. There was a consultation process that was very supportive and there did not seem to be any dissenting voices to the proposal. As the Minister rightly says, this is necessary after the 2012 Act. I cannot quite remember the context in which he mentioned torture, but I do not think that that has relevance on this.
There are comparisons with other nations and regions of the United Kingdom—we all understand the Northern Ireland one—but the Scottish Government have considerable powers and I can understand why there are reservations about having a national police force against a background of the police always being regionally organised. I was on the police and fire committee of Strathclyde regional council, which has a very good operation. The Minister mentioned that there were 14 abstentions in the Scottish Parliament—I presume that that was his own party, or did the Liberal Democrats vote against? I welcome the conversion and hope that we can have further co-operation like that.
Although the report is rightly subject to scrutiny and questioning, I want to develop a wee bit further the principle of disaffection. As a trade unionist, the word “disaffection” towards anything raises questions. It has been mentioned that some of the clarification that the Minister’s staff was able to pass on was on questions asked by the committee regarding who could be charged with disaffection. The initial reply seemed to indicate that only certain police could be charged with disaffection, but further clarification suggested that it could apply to a member of the public as well. Although I totally accept the Minister’s point that the Government do not envisage anyone being charged with this wrongly, unfairly, or whatever, he will know better than I do that legal history is full of people who have been prosecuted for offences for which at the time it was indicated they would not be prosecuted. So, I would like further clarification on disaffection because the police are different. It is acknowledged that they are not allowed to join trade unions. We have to have law and order and a legal system, so it is right that in case anybody tries to suborn or undermine the police in carrying out their duties, the defence should stay in.
I press the Minister to go a bit further in giving us assurances that no “innocent bystanders” who have had a pint too much on a Saturday night and preach treason—I have certainly done that myself a few times with pints of soda water and lime, I hasten to add—will be prosecuted. I seek assurances that ordinary members of the public, letting off steam—to use one of the expressions mentioned—will not be liberally prosecuted. I will leave it at that and hope that the Minister can give us some of those answers. That will reassure me.
My Lords, I thank both my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for their contributions to the debate. I note the concerns of my noble friend with regard to the establishment of a national police force. He will be aware, as I indicated in opening, that our Scottish Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Scottish Parliament voted against this. At one point the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, suggested that the 14 were Liberal Democrats—if only we had 14 Members in the Scottish Parliament. It was five Liberal Democrats and one Green who voted against and 14 Conservatives who abstained. The point is not about whether we support this policy intent, but that the Act was properly passed by the Scottish Parliament, and by a large majority. It is very consistent and in the spirit of the devolution settlement that this Parliament, through the use of a Section 104 order, should give effect to the intentions of the Scottish Parliament in areas where, because of its competence, it was not able to do so. It is in that spirit of making the devolution settlement work that we bring forward this order.
The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked particularly about Article 9 and the issue that was raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. He is right on disaffection inasmuch as it is not just members of the police force who could possibly commit such an offence. Anyone attempting to persuade a member of the police force not to serve could expose themselves to a possible prosecution but, as I indicated and the noble Lord accepted, this is not about expressing an opinion or engaging in debate. We said in response to questions from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—I think it had been in one of the earlier responses about the chat in the pub—that we presumed that the committee meant a chat in the pub between police officers. That was why the context of the reply was framed as it was, in an attempt to give a directed answer to the committee’s concern. However, it is possible for the offence to be committed by persons who are not members of police forces in the first instance. I hope this clarifies it. The first sentence contained a general statement to set the scene before focusing on the perceived aspect about which the committee was concerned.
I hope I can give some assurance to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in that we are not aware of any prosecution having been raised in relation to the provisions which are currently in Section 42 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967. They have been on the statute book for more than 45 years and there is no reported case; nor indeed does there appear to be any reported case involving equivalent offences in other legislation which applies to other police forces within the United Kingdom. The lack of any cases implies that the sort of conduct which appears to be the cause for concern has not hitherto given rise to a criminal prosecution since 1967 but that does not mean, as I hope I explained in my opening remarks, that it is not relevant in 2013. The offence has a powerful impact in deterring behaviour which could otherwise undermine the effectiveness of the police forces.
As I think the noble Lord also recognised, if there is to be a debate on changing this provision, it would be better if that took place in a wider debate and not simply through the mechanism of this order. With that response to the questions that the noble Lord asked and the point raised by my noble friend, I urge the Committee to support the Motion.