To ask the Chairman of Committees what is the present condition of the two large Maclise frescos in the Royal Gallery; and what are his plans for their restoration.

My Lords, over the past 12 months a research project with the Cologne University of Applied Sciences has been run by the Curator’s Office to examine the condition of the murals and investigate ways to improve their presentation. At the moment it is too early to say how the murals might be restored, but the results of that research will be available in the autumn, and early indications are positive. A briefing note with further details is available in the Library.

My Lords, would it not be a shame if these iconic pictures, part of the House of Lords and part of the House of Lords art collection, were to be allowed to deteriorate further, and will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman do his best to see that that does not happen?

My Lords, I fully anticipate that the curator, once this research has been completed, will be able to come forward with proposals for the conservation, cleaning and lighting of the murals so that they can be restored to their full glory and vibrancy—I hope before any future visit by a French President.

My Lords, does the Chairman of Committees agree that one of the reasons why it is important that these murals be preserved to the best standard that can be achieved is that Daniel Maclise was himself a very important artist? He was important both in Parliament and outside it, he was a friend of Charles Dickens and he died, as I recollect from my reading, in not very propitious circumstances and in poverty. Part of the reason for that was his relationship with the Houses of Parliament. Is it not the case that we would do well to restore his reputation with his pictures?

Indeed.

My Lords, the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees has referred to future visits of a French President. However, he will, of course, be well aware, as will other noble Lords, that in two years’ time we celebrate the bicentenary of the Battle of Waterloo. Is there any chance that something could be done about the condition of that particular picture before that date?

That is a very fair point. It would be lovely if we could make progress in time for the bicentenary of Waterloo. It depends on the detail we are given once the research is completed and then how quickly we can move to do the restoration—and, I am afraid, on where the money comes from.

My Lords, can the Chairman of Committees possibly ensure that in any careful restoration of these brilliant pieces of work, somehow a little blood is added to the representations of Trafalgar and Waterloo, since the impression given to succeeding generations is of a rather sanitised version of warfare?

I think there might be some difficulty in that one. If I can be a little bit serious and give a bit more information to the House, the murals, almost from the start, have lost a deal of colour. They became murky and coloured down, mainly, I think, because of the dirt and coal dust that were in the atmosphere at that time in the mid-Victorian age. It is hoped that by proper cleaning we can get the colours back. I do not think that necessarily means a sanitised view of warfare.

My Lords, does the Lord Chairman accept that there is a lingering irony in these wonderful images next door? They were commissioned by a German, Prince Albert; they were carried out by a wonderful, gifted Irishman, Maclise; and they were almost ruined by the constant interference of bureaucrats. They show a Britain interdependent with its European neighbours but determined to preserve its sovereignty against the overbearing European project; a Britain of men and women, young and old, black men as well as white, and, above all, a Britain victorious. Does the Lord Chairman not agree that while the paint gets darker nevertheless their message gets ever brighter?

Possibly. I do recollect somewhere along the line that when Wellington and Blucher met at Waterloo, they spoke to each other in French.

Does the Chairman of Committees not agree that something might be added in the Royal Gallery by a wonderful model of a three-decker like “Victory”? It would add to the impact of what is there and it could be moved out on special occasions. I know that there are a number of museums that would be willing to loan that—and perhaps add in a stuffed-horse or something for the army.

When it comes to the Royal Gallery, I do not know where my responsibilities end and Black Rod’s begin, but if it comes to stuffed-horses, the noble Lord had better ask Black Rod rather than me.

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned a future visit of a French President. Will he give your Lordships an assurance that on that occasion no shroud of misplaced sensitivity will be placed on the pictures in order to spare the French President’s knowledge of history?

I do not think that that has ever been the case and the French Presidents that I have ever had any contact with have always remarked on how much they liked looking at the murals.

My Lords, what Wellington said is not recorded but apparently Field Marshal Blucher spoke the only words of English that he knew and said, “I have kept my word”.

My Lords, does the Lord Chairman realise that a very important reason for preserving the Maclise legacy is not simply the two great frescos in the Royal Gallery but the two that are in this Chamber, “The Spirit of Justice” and “The Spirit of Chivalry”? All those paintings have one major theme, which is the unity and co-operation of the nations and ethnicities of the United Kingdom in a common cause. That is a particular reason to preserve this legacy.

Speaking as someone who was born in England, did part of my education in Wales, and have lived virtually all my adult life in Scotland, I totally agree with the sentiments that the noble Lord expresses.